Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[GHScorpiosRule]

13 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Seriously, I know everyone loves to diss Sharon/Emily Van Camp because she's "boring"/"bland"/whatever excuse you want to use just because Stucky didn't happen,

Speaking for myself, I've NEVER liked Emily Van Camp's acting. She's too wooden for me. And me not caring for her Sharon had nothing to do with Bucky and Steve ( I REFUSE to use those smooshed names). The scenes between them just felt so forced. Frankly, when it came to Steve, I cared only about his doing his Avenging, and didn't care about his love life.  But I was invested in Steve and Bucky's friendship, which we saw in Captain America: The First Avenger. If that makes me a bad, cold, unfeeling person, so be it.

[Danny Franks]

9 hours ago, Dandesun said:

There is a lot of cool interaction between Sharon and Bucky or Sharon and Sam in the comics. I've never been a Sharon/Steve fan. Period. So I'm not exactly heart-broken that they didn't take off in the MCU... probably would have preferred Steve hanging up the shield and maybe trying to give it a go with her at the end of Endgame instead of this nonsense mess although I would have honestly hated that, too, just because I didn't feel any THERE there between them in the movies.

HOWEVER, giving Sharon something to do in TFATWS and make use of her as a kick ass Agent 13 is something I can get down with. I do NOT want them to try to romantically pair her with anyone because... just... can we not? I'd just rather see them work as a team. If there is any chemistry there and someone feels like scratching an itch, so be it, but leave romance out of it! These people have shit to do and I really can't get on board with the MCU's abysmal record when it comes to romance.

I really hope they don't make Sharon a romantic option for either Sam or Bucky. It would be tacky to imply that she's just settling for the next best thing, after Steve was off the table. But I'm all in for her and Sam being buddies, like they are in the Captain America comics. They had a nice dynamic in Brubaker's run, and it gave Sharon the room to really establish a character that was separate from Steve.

I want to see Bucky exploring the 21st century dating scene, after clearly being a ladies' man in the 1940s. It would be both interesting and very funny to see him adapting to modern expectations and gender dynamics. But he doesn't need a grand, epic romance (unless it's Natasha, which it won't be).

[clack]

15 hours ago, Raja said:

It is not just retiring but taking retirement with 100% certainty that Hydra was growing inside of S.H.I.E.L.D and held Bucky as a slave soldier 

I don't know, something to do with time travel? It doesn't matter, it's all comic book nonsense. Time travel is impossible, Captain America is impossible, even Clint and Natasha couldn't exist in real life.

Steve's ending either lands with you on an emotional, dramatic level, or it doesn't. If you try to think through all the logical implications, it falls apart.

But then again, if you try to think through all the logical implications of the MCU, the whole universe would fall apart. 

[Bruinsfan]

If it were going to be Natasha, he'd have needed to hitch a ride back into the past with Steve.

In my opinion Steve and Peggy were the romance the MCU got most right—prior to Endgame, anyway—but like so many TV series and movie franchises, more installments mean more chances to foul things up.

I was at the Do Not Want table for Sharon as Steve's love interest (even in the comics it seemed somewhat creepy to me for Steve to settle down with his 1940s sweetheart's younger relative, and Peggy Carter cast nowhere near the long shadow in that medium that she does in the MCU), but I don't object to the character inherently. Removing Steve from the equation makes her a viable character again for me. Let's see more of the kickass special agent who had an armed standoff with Rumlow in SHIELD operations HQ, not the woman who was making out with Aunt Peggy's former love about five minutes after her funeral.

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I really hope they don't make Sharon a romantic option for either Sam or Bucky. It would be tacky to imply that she's just settling for the next best thing, after Steve was off the table. But I'm all in for her and Sam being buddies, like they are in the Captain America comics. They had a nice dynamic in Brubaker's run, and it gave Sharon the room to really establish a character that was separate from Steve.

I agree that it would be more fun to have Sharon, Sam, and Bucky as a platonic team of friends.  Hope that's what they stick to.

It would be fun to see Bucky exploring dating in the present, but after what he's been through and knowing his baggage, I wouldn't be surprised if dating is off the table for him.

[festivus]

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

I was at the Do Not Want table for Sharon as Steve's love interest (even in the comics it seemed somewhat creepy to me for Steve to settle down with his 1940s sweetheart's younger relative, and Peggy Carter cast nowhere near the long shadow in that medium that she does in the MCU), but I don't object to the character inherently. Removing Steve from the equation makes her a viable character again for me. Let's see more of the kickass special agent who had an armed standoff with Rumlow in SHIELD operations HQ, not the woman who was making out with Aunt Peggy's former love about five minutes after her funeral.

She had no chemistry with CE so I can see why they left her out of IW and Endgame but you think we'd at least get a mention of her. Was she snapped? I'm not impressed with the actress so far (Have never seen her in anything else) but I'm willing to give her a chance. I hope they all just stay work buddies though.

[Wynterwolf]

1 hour ago, festivus said:

I hope they all just stay work buddies though.

I would hope for that too, and it seems like it might be possible:

(the tweet that Spellman apparently 'liked' said:  "i trust u.. give us buddy cop shenanigans without forced het romance.. please it's all i ask..").  So... maybe.

[Cirien]

5 hours ago, festivus said:

She had no chemistry with CE so I can see why they left her out of IW and Endgame but you think we'd at least get a mention of her. Was she snapped? I'm not impressed with the actress so far (Have never seen her in anything else) but I'm willing to give her a chance. I hope they all just stay work buddies though.

 

She was ( which is why the ending for Steve irritates me to no end: they willfully - ignoring Stucky which was never going to happen anyway- killed  off the two other woman who could have been Steve's LI [can't he just on his own for a bit??? With a golden retriever???? and doing art therapy at the VA and the support groups for people who have returned??] and visually regressed him in terms of clothing so he looked like a man out of time) 

I hope they all stay work buddies too though. Sharon cosplayers have already been forced to leave con after being reduced to tears by people cosplaying as....someone else, and they hook her up with either of them the drama on tumblr and twitter is going to be too much too bear. 

(I used to love Peggy, but let's face the writers turned her into a Mary-Sue at the end) 

EDIT: And *sigh* Atwell, has erm lost her shine over the past few years for me, there's that too

Edited September 4, 2019 by Cirien
more to add

[festivus]

22 minutes ago, Cirien said:

I hope they all stay work buddies too though. Sharon cosplayers have already been forced to leave con after being reduced to tears by people cosplaying as....someone else, and they hook her up with either of them the drama on tumblr and twitter is going to be too much too bear. 

Well that is just horrible. What is wrong with people? 

I want it to stay noromo just because I'm not much interested in it in general and I think Sam and Bucky are going to be pretty busy already dealing with their various issues. Also Marvel suuucks at romance. I don't think they'll do any better with 6 hours.

How do we know she was snapped? Did they show her pic during the flipping through the missing section? If they did, I missed it.

[Cirien]

18 minutes ago, festivus said:

Well that is just horrible. What is wrong with people? 

I want it to stay noromo just because I'm not much interested in it in general and I think Sam and Bucky are going to be pretty busy already dealing with their various issues. Also Marvel suuucks at romance. I don't think they'll do any better with 6 hours.

How do we know she was snapped? Did they show her pic during the flipping through the missing section? If they did, I missed it.

Shipping. It's a huge fight. And given the way Evans looks.....( you get the idea)

There have been screencaps on tumblr and Twitter that show her being amongst the snapped, so I think we can assume she was shown as snapped but I'm too lazy to go look for them now but the Marvel wiki has her as one of the snapped: 

https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Sharon_Carter#Thanos.27_War

[Spartan Girl]

You think what the trolls did to the Sharon cosplayers was bad, poor Emily Van Camp was bullied to the point where she stopped her Twitter completely. The things some of these people said to her were so vile...call her acting wooden all you want, she DID NOT deserve that.

And Hayley Atwell egged them on...not directly, but she sure dissed Sharon and Steve a lot -- and this coming from the one who wanted to originally play Sharon AND Peggy. Yeah, having a Peggy lookalike in a blond wig would have made the pairing less creepy. *eyeroll*

Edited September 5, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[Wynterwolf]

27 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

but she sure dissed Sharon and Steve a lot

There was a lot of valid reason for dissing Sharon and Steve as a romantic couple, but Emily definitely did not (and does not) deserve to be treated like she was.  I actually loved her character in WS, it was the PTB's story decisions in CW that were poorly done.  

[Cirien]

46 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

You think what the trolls did to the Sharon cosplayers was bad, poor Emily Van Camp was bullied to the point where she stopped her Twitter completely. The things some of these people said to her were so vile...call her acting wooden all you want, she DID NOT deserve that.

And Hayley Atwell egged them on...not directly, but she sure dissed Sharon and Steve a lot -- and this coming from the one who wanted to originally play Sharon AND Peggy. Yeah, having a Peggy lookalike in a blond it would have made the pairing less creepy. *eyeroll*

1

OMG this re the bolded and Hayley. I think she's the one who'd turned me off the ship completely and she and Steggy's fans are insufferable to say the least ( I know Chris Evans wasn't great, but it makes sense , he's known Hayley longer and probably did invest into the Steve/Peggy relationship for a while. 

And they took all of Sharon's characteristics and gave them to Peggy. *Sharon* was the cynical one *Sharon* was the first female director of SHIELD, but then they had to go and make Peggy a founder and then, the first female director. And these things shouldn't matter but they do. 

No one realised that Hayley would be a breakout star, but she was, and it's understandable that they got carried away with what a gem they had in their version of Peggy, but (and this goes for Arrow's creators and the DCEU), comic book series and comic book movies only exist because of comic book *fans* and people are still spilt (and I'm not talking about shippers) on whether it was a good ending for Steve (hence the constant interviews of the writers to double down on it. 

I don't know given the Falcon and Winter Soldier series this issue isn't going away anytime soon 

[Dandesun]

I almost have to give the MCU credit for somehow managing to make Steve/Sharon even weirder for me. I can't imagine how squicked out I'd have been if Hayley showed up in a blonde wig calling herself Sharon.

Although, to be fair, current Cap comic continuity is something I'm enjoying so much it's also the first time I've been able to get behind Steve/Sharon as a pairing. Maybe the MCU soured me on Steve's ending with Peggy so damn much that I'm willing to give actual comic canon long term pairing Steve/Sharon a real go. It doesn't hurt that Sharon remains pretty fucking awesome in the book as well. (And Bucky... who shows up everywhere in his domino mask and it never fails to crack me up. He sleeps and showers in that thing, doesn't he? Of course, he's also in the new Invaders series and it feels like he gets shot in the head every other issue. I think it only happened the one time but it FEELS like more.)

I hate hearing about the bullying actors have had to endure because of angry fans. I cut my teeth in comic fandom on the newsgroups back in the 90s and the fanwars back then were awful. It grieves me to see that nothing has changed. Hell, I've been part of soap opera fan wars... that's some ugly ass shit. The point is, fans should have evolved at this point but if often feels they devolved or just evolved into much nastier creatures. Fandom can be wonderful and it very often is... supportive, creative, accepting, encouraging... but there is always that dark side. And shipping brings out the worst in some, it really does.

At this point, I just skip the very last bit of Endgame. There is so much that I really do love about it... and Tony's death has, thus far, left me with tear tracks every time. (I love that Rhodey got to him first. That silent moment between them was special.) And when Thanos' ship suddenly turns because Carol's coming to FUCK SHIT UP!! Love it.

I just ignore the ending and ignore the writers because I don't care how they try to spin anything anymore.

[Wynterwolf]

50 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

The point is, fans should have evolved at this point but if often feels they devolved or just evolved into much nastier creatures. Fandom can be wonderful and it very often is... supportive, creative, accepting, encouraging... but there is always that dark side. And shipping brings out the worst in some, it really does.

Eh, shipping wars are just part of the symptoms, they aren't a cause. And I guess I feel like the idea that the moral universe bends towards justice is a myth, I think it bend towards apathy and it's why we keep repeating the same patterns through the decades.  No one seems to realize there is no finish line, you always have to stay vigilant and keep fighting injustice, because there will always be selfish assholes trying to cause someone pain (which is another reason the ending they chose for Steve's character, of all characters... burrrrnnnnns so fucking much).  Fandom is the best of us and also the worst of us, and I think it always has been.  The only thing that changes is the technology.  

[Spartan Girl]

So while plugging TFATWS, Emily just confirmed that the reason why Sharon was AWOL was because she had been on the run since CW. Basically confirming that Steve made no effort to contact her for the past several years, even when she stuck her neck out for him and Bucky. Spent more time pining over her aunt who died peacefully in her sleep after a full and happy life then showing any concern for what happened to Sharon -- after HE was the one that initiated that damn kiss in CW. And then he proceeded to go back in time and make her his niece (by marriage but still).

Wow. You really are the worst, Endgame Steve.

[festivus]

2 hours ago, Dandesun said:

I hate hearing about the bullying actors have had to endure because of angry fans. I cut my teeth in comic fandom on the newsgroups back in the 90s and the fanwars back then were awful. It grieves me to see that nothing has changed. Hell, I've been part of soap opera fan wars... that's some ugly ass shit. The point is, fans should have evolved at this point but if often feels they devolved or just evolved into much nastier creatures. Fandom can be wonderful and it very often is... supportive, creative, accepting, encouraging... but there is always that dark side. And shipping brings out the worst in some, it really does.

It probably will never change but I do think all the freedom on the internet to be anonymous lets folks be extra nasty. The closest I've ever even been to shipper wars was Smallville where I was a Chlark shipper but I still didn't care enough to ever fight people over it. It does kinda fascinate me I have to admit because I don't do much shipping in general. I do love me some fanfic though where I will pick the most unlikely couple to read about. 😁

I think they didn't bother to mention to us anything about Sharon once they decided to go with the Steve and Peggy ending. I don't for one second believe that was always Steve's intended ending, I think it was just the easiest way to get him off the board without killing him. All the mentions of Peggy throughout the movie were for the casual moviegoers who don't live and breath this shit like I do, so they'd remember her. And of course don't mention Sharon or have Steve grieving people who actually dusted.

[Cirien]

3 hours ago, festivus said:

It probably will never change but I do think all the freedom on the internet to be anonymous lets folks be extra nasty. The closest I've ever even been to shipper wars was Smallville where I was a Chlark shipper but I still didn't care enough to ever fight people over it. It does kinda fascinate me I have to admit because I don't do much shipping in general. I do love me some fanfic though where I will pick the most unlikely couple to read about. 😁

I think they didn't bother to mention to us anything about Sharon once they decided to go with the Steve and Peggy ending. I don't for one second believe that was always Steve's intended ending, I think it was just the easiest way to get him off the board without killing him. All the mentions of Peggy throughout the movie were for the casual moviegoers who don't live and breath this shit like I do, so they'd remember her. And of course don't mention Sharon or have Steve grieving people who actually dusted.

This plus the way they visually regressed him I haven't seen him in those plaid button-downs and high waisted trousers since the first avengers' movie- and while the hair could be said to be depression hair- we've seen what he looks like when he doesn't have time to groom- Source: infinity war, and that this was deliberately 1940's hair.  I honestly thought they were just going to give him that dance ( because that's M&M have talked about: That stupid dance) But casual fans clamoured for more- because that's what's they'd pushed thoughtout the film. 

Like I as comic/ cartoon fan knows that Steve Rogers only goes back in time to rescue *Bucky* ( no seriously that's the only time he does) then realises. his place in the future. And "Avengers Assemble" has the same theme. That Steve's life in the present and MIB with Tommy Lee Jones essentially has the same theme. (watch the films) but I'm supposed to believe that for Cap and Peggy it works.???

It's bullshit  

[Jeebus Cripes]

11 hours ago, Dandesun said:

At this point, I just skip the very last bit of Endgame. There is so much that I really do love about it... and Tony's death has, thus far, left me with tear tracks every time. (I love that Rhodey got to him first. That silent moment between them was special.) And when Thanos' ship suddenly turns because Carol's coming to FUCK SHIT UP!! Love it.

I just ignore the ending and ignore the writers because I don't care how they try to spin anything anymore.

I can get on board with this. I used to be big on Mel Gibson before he revealed himself to be a vile bigot and a hobgoblin, and as such, I would always stop Braveheart right before they captured him and pretend the end never happened. 

9 hours ago, festivus said:

I think they didn't bother to mention to us anything about Sharon once they decided to go with the Steve and Peggy ending. I don't for one second believe that was always Steve's intended ending, I think it was just the easiest way to get him off the board without killing him. All the mentions of Peggy throughout the movie were for the casual moviegoers who don't live and breath this shit like I do, so they'd remember her. And of course don't mention Sharon or have Steve grieving people who actually dusted.

They already said that they wrote scenes with Steve and Sharon living together for Infinity War. They probably cut that out to trim the fat, so to speak, but it's pretty obvious that Peggy was never on their minds as an option until the last minute. I'd go so far as to venture that every scene dealing with Steve & Peg is a re-shoot. I'd bet money on that. 

[festivus]

6 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

They already said that they wrote scenes with Steve and Sharon living together for Infinity War.

That's interesting. I wonder how they would have taken him out of play if they'd left that in. Lost in time perhaps?

[Cirien]

39 minutes ago, festivus said:

That's interesting. I wonder how they would have taken him out of play if they'd left that in. Lost in time perhaps?

 

I believe that there was a scene in one of the original scripts where he simply ....handed over the shield? But with Tony and Natasha dying and with the way Peggy has been built up by the writers ( again, into this weird Sharon Carter/Nick Fury/ Cynthia Glass hybrid) and actor, it was never going work simply with Steve *just* having that dance and going back  ( that fucking dance jfc get over it) 

EDIT: I know I sound like a bitter Stucky Shipper- but that's not what it is honestly. I survived the great shipping wars of Chlark vs Chlois and Lauriver vs Sara/Oliver, and to my mind I don't remember the fandom being egged on, in terms of Chloe/ Sara over Lois/Laurel by the actors, in a fashion which Hayley has ( tacitly) 

It's soured me on Peggy and if we are going with the closed time loop theory the characters of Steve and Peggy as well. which is a shame really 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Cirien
more to add

[Cirien]

7 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

I can get on board with this. I used to be big on Mel Gibson before he revealed himself to be a vile bigot and a hobgoblin, and as such, I would always stop Braveheart right before they captured him and pretend the end never happened. 

They already said that they wrote scenes with Steve and Sharon living together for Infinity War. They probably cut that out to trim the fat, so to speak, but it's pretty obvious that Peggy was never on their minds as an option until the last minute. I'd go so far as to venture that every scene dealing with Steve & Peg is a re-shoot. I'd bet money on that. 

 

They were. I believe Hayley said that those scenes were added in re-shoots

[thickplottens]

Funny how Chris Evans can be continuously negative about Sharon and the Sharon/Steve relationship (and make gross comments about other female characters) yet never gets accused of egging on fans like Hayley Atwell does.  

[Wynterwolf]

Saw this on twitter and it's so fucking true:

Yep, STILL PISSED.

[Cirien]

15 minutes ago, thickplottens said:

Funny how Chris Evans can be continuously negative about Sharon and the Sharon/Steve relationship (and make gross comments about other female characters) yet never gets accused of egging on fans like Hayley Atwell does.  

IIRC All he's ever said about Sharon was one comment about it being, "a little icky" in a press conference for Civil War ( and that phrasing was initially put by the reporter who asked the question)  where even Emily didn't seem too thrilled about the uh dynamics and saying he preferred the Steve Peggy relationship because it was sweeter. and said Steve would date Sharon because she reminded him of Peggy. 

Now all of that isn't great I'll grant you, but Hayley, on the other hand, has played with the shippers on twitter, (even supporting Stucky over Steve/Sharon in various interviews that Steve and Sharon is "borderline incestuous" , that she would "ground Sharon," but give Steve a slap on the wrist because "boys will be boys", after Emily Van camp was cast.

She's claimed that Peggy took Steve's virginity, that Steve is "Peggy's" and that Peggy would be "rolling in her grave at the thought of Steve/Sharon.

She's also taken photo with fans at con's showing disgust towards Steve/Sharon, 

Before Sharon was cast she claimed that Sharon essential to Steve's story and claimed that she could embody the character, wearing a blonde wig, and it would be "True Love" with Steve. 

I don't want to type out too long a reply, but outside of Chris's comments, which again weren't great, it only takes a quick look to see that Hayley's comments have been consistent and constant over the years. I don't think it's that hard to see why Hayley gets accused of egging on the fandom and Chris doesn't 

[Wynterwolf]

I don't recall either CE or HA ever confusing Sharon's character with EVC, though.  And there were plenty of valid reasons to be squicked by how Sharon and Steve's relationship was portrayed on screen, but that's on the creators that chose that route for the characters.  'Shipping' isn't why fans are inappropriate or mean to an actor/actress, it's just the excuse.  But because 'shipping' gets the easy blame, we never address the real issues, which often come down to misogyny, homophobia, hetero-normative bias... etc.  

eta:  There's also a HUGE difference between explaining why you find something (popular or not) problematic, and specifically telling someone they're wrong for liking/disliking something, or dismissing/belittling their reasoning either way.  And that fundamental misunderstanding of what helps foster effective discussion/communication is found everywhere, not just 'shipping wars'.   

Edited September 6, 2019 by Wynterwolf

[thickplottens]

4 hours ago, Cirien said:

IIRC All he's ever said about Sharon was one comment about it being, "a little icky" in a press conference for Civil War ( and that phrasing was initially put by the reporter who asked the question)  where even Emily didn't seem too thrilled about the uh dynamics and saying he preferred the Steve Peggy relationship because it was sweeter. and said Steve would date Sharon because she reminded him of Peggy. 

Now all of that isn't great I'll grant you, but Hayley, on the other hand, has played with the shippers on twitter, (even supporting Stucky over Steve/Sharon in various interviews that Steve and Sharon is "borderline incestuous" , that she would "ground Sharon," but give Steve a slap on the wrist because "boys will be boys", after Emily Van camp was cast.

She's claimed that Peggy took Steve's virginity, that Steve is "Peggy's" and that Peggy would be "rolling in her grave at the thought of Steve/Sharon.

She's also taken photo with fans at con's showing disgust towards Steve/Sharon, 

Before Sharon was cast she claimed that Sharon essential to Steve's story and claimed that she could embody the character, wearing a blonde wig, and it would be "True Love" with Steve. 

I don't want to type out too long a reply, but outside of Chris's comments, which again weren't great, it only takes a quick look to see that Hayley's comments have been consistent and constant over the years. I don't think it's that hard to see why Hayley gets accused of egging on the fandom and Chris doesn't 

I remember seeing several interviews with Evans saying that he thought the Steve/Sharon relationship was weird and creepy and was generally disparaging about it. I also remember Hayley saying that she would like to see Peggy & Sharon's relationship explored and that Peggy would feel protective over Sharon, yet that always seem get ignored in these kind of conversations. From what I can tell she just dislikes the Steve/Sharon relationship and I don't see why she should have to hide her opinions because grown adults on the internet are unable to act like decent human beings. 

[Spartan Girl]

She could have at least told all her stans to just cool their jets and tell them off for harassing Emily. She did neither of those things...but to be fair, nobody else did either. And the Russos/MCU clearly thought it would be easier to kow-tow to the Steggy shippers, which is why we probably got this mess of an ending.

[thickplottens]

Eh I seriously doubt a billion dollar corporation like Disney felt the need to kow-tow to any shippers. 

I realize that I'm in a minority here, but I'm not that bothered by Steve's ending. I found barren Natasha having to sacrifice herself for mass murderer Clint because he had a family more troublesome. Her solo film couldn't feel more like an afterthought. 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, thickplottens said:

I remember seeing several interviews with Evans saying that he thought the Steve/Sharon relationship was weird and creepy and was generally disparaging about it. I also remember Hayley saying that she would like to see Peggy & Sharon's relationship explored and that Peggy would feel protective over Sharon, yet that always seem get ignored in these kind of conversations. From what I can tell she just dislikes the Steve/Sharon relationship and I don't see why she should have to hide her opinions because grown adults on the internet are unable to act like decent human beings. 

Personally I am more reacting more to the overall tone then specific statements. What I’ve read left me with the impression that Hayley is egging on the fandom while Evans just seems to be responding to specific questions while doing press.

I also think it helps my opinion of Evans that he actually interacts with Sharon and Emily Van Camp. Hayley has not had any scenes with Sharon and hasn’t done press with EVC (as far as I know) so her comments come across more critical and unnecessary. 

[thickplottens]

20 minutes ago, Dani said:

Personally I am more reacting more to the overall tone then specific statements. What I’ve read left me with the impression that Hayley is egging on the fandom while Evans just seems to be responding to specific questions while doing press.

I also think it helps my opinion of Evans that he actually interacts with Sharon and Emily Van Camp. Hayley has not had any scenes with Sharon and hasn’t done press with EVC (as far as I know) so her comments come across more critical and unnecessary. 

I can see why Hayley's comments would come across as harsher and unnecessary in that context. I guess I just find some of Evans' comments (and not just about Sharon) off-putting yet they seem to attract less criticism. 

[SimoneS]

14 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

She could have at least told all her stans to just cool their jets and tell them off for harassing Emily. She did neither of those things...but to be fair, nobody else did either. And the Russos/MCU clearly thought it would be easier to kow-tow to the Steggy shippers, which is why we probably got this mess of an ending.

If nobody did including Marvel, why are you saying that Hayley should have? Because it is easier to take her on than the popular Evans.

I thought Steve's ending was fitting. And I will repeat, MCU owns these properties. They aren't obliged to kow-tow to vocal segment of fans who either want a bisexual Steve having a romance with Bucky or a heterosexual Steve ending his story in a bromance with Bucky.

Edited September 7, 2019 by SimoneS

[Dandesun]

It's likely I didn't find Evans' comment upsetting because I full on agree. Sharon and Steve IS weird and a bit icky. It's not AS obvious in canon comics because Sharon has been around for so long and Peggy's existence is kind of sporadic. Basically if you were reading through the 70s, 80s and 90s Peggy wasn't a fixture at all but Sharon definitely was.

But Peggy's second appearance in comics is being revealed as Sharon's older sister and also Cap's war-time love interest (well that was her first appearance) so... look... it was always fucking weird. Cap had a war-time lady friend, went into the ice, came out 20 years later, and took up with said lady friend's little sister.

That's gross!! And then through the years it's been 'no not her sister, her niece... no not her niece her great-niece' and none of that actually makes it any better. It just makes Cap look like he preys on the young female members of the same family. And I guess I was actually just fine with Evans going 'yeeeaahhh... it's a little gross.' Especially since you don't have 80 years of comics continuity to stretch it out. You've got Captain America: The First Avenger (yay! Peggy! Peggy's great!) then The Avengers (aww... sad and lonely Cap) and then Captain America: The Winter Soldier (old Peggy! Who Cap clearly still cares deeply about and young, pretty 'nurse' -- oops! Nope, agent assigned to watch Cap without him knowing. He-ey!) to Age of Ultron (brief mention of searching for Bucky. That's it.) to Civil War (oh, agent assigned to watch me is my war-time love interest's great-niece and I discover this AT THE FUNERAL and then decide to kiss said great-niece and try to suggest it was 'overdue') The way it comes off in the movies is that Steve decides to start making out with her immediately after he finds out she's Peggy's great-niece which is even grosser!

So, yeah, they made it really icky in the MCU so I can't blame anyone for actually saying so. I don't hold EVC responsible for this. They could have done something with Sharon that didn't try to shoe-horn her in as Steve's Great True Love just because that's what 616 canon stipulates. I still say it would have been a hell of a lot better if Sharon had stuck her neck out for Steve both in WS and CW out of what Peggy told her about him and not because she thought he was dreamy.

I can only hope they do better by Sharon in FatWS. And please don't let her sleep with either one of those idiots. Sharon, go find a super hot surfer and get your rocks off with him when you feel like it. I support it.

[Cirien]

22 minutes ago, thickplottens said:

I remember seeing several interviews with Evans saying that he thought the Steve/Sharon relationship was weird and creepy and was generally disparaging about it. I also remember Hayley saying that she would like to see Peggy & Sharon's relationship explored and that Peggy would feel protective over Sharon, yet that always seem get ignored in these kind of conversations. From what I can tell she just dislikes the Steve/Sharon relationship and I don't see why she should have to hide her opinions because grown adults on the internet are unable to act like decent human beings. 

2

I'm going to address the bolded part and then hopefully stop talking about this: 

She was absolutely fine with the Steve/Sharon relationship and called it essential to Steve's story,  ( and true love) when the part hadn't been cast yet, even going to far as to say she could play the role with a blonde wig. 

All of that changed rather quickly when Emily was cast apparently, and while she was initially, supportive of Emily, in recent years her comments on it have been increasingly negative. 

Chris Evans has made a couple of distasteful comments on the Staron relationship, and yes about Natasha, but I agree with with the poster upthread in that Hayley's comments cross across as worse 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, thickplottens said:

I can see why Hayley's comments would come across as harsher and unnecessary in that context. I guess I just find some of Evans' comments (and not just about Sharon) off-putting yet they seem to attract less criticism. 

There definitely is a double standard. Several of the male Marvel stars are very outspoken and do not receive anywhere near the backlash that the female stars do. 

1 hour ago, thickplottens said:

Eh I seriously doubt a billion dollar corporation like Disney felt the need to kow-tow to any shippers. 

I realize that I'm in a minority here, but I'm not that bothered by Steve's ending. I found barren Natasha having to sacrifice herself for mass murderer Clint because he had a family more troublesome. Her solo film couldn't feel more like an afterthought. 

I agree with you. Steve’s ending annoys me because I think it was poorly set up and written but Natasha’s story really pisses me off. 

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Dandesun said:

I still say it would have been a hell of a lot better if Sharon had stuck her neck out for Steve both in WS and CW out of what Peggy told her about him and not because she thought he was dreamy.

I thought that WAS the reason why she stuck her neck out for him! Hell, there was a storyboard deleted scene in CW where her boss basically accuses her of siding with him because he thought they were sleeping together -- which was NOT the case -- and she rips him a new one. Now why didn't THAT scene make the final cut?! The Russos really fumbled with the female characters in these movies, even their precious ScarJo. Because I too hate Nat's ending, and I don't even like her that much.

And speaking of double standards, I really hate that the trolls slutshamed Sharon for the kiss when Steve initiated it. Ugh this whole fucking situation just makes Steve out to be a giant asshole.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I thought that WAS the reason why she stuck her neck out for him! Hell, there was a storyboard deleted scene in CW where her boss basically accuses her of siding with him because he thought they were sleeping together -- which was NOT the case -- and she rips him a new one. Now why didn't THAT scene make the final cut?! The Russos really fumbled with the female characters in these movies, even their precious ScarJo. Because I too hate Nat's ending, and I don't even like her that much.

And speaking of double standards, I really hate that the trolls slutshamed Sharon for the kiss when Steve initiated it.

I thought that was why she did it too. She was extremely underdeveloped but I thought that when she stood up to Rumlow it was she believed Captain America about Hydra and not because of any feelings she had for Steve. 

My favorite Sharon moment was when Steve tried to make her pretending to his neighbor personal and she immediately and unapologetically pointed out that she was doing her job. If everyone wasn’t so determined to make her Peggy 2.0 she could have worked. 

I have major problems with how the Infinity saga handled female characters. Overall I loved the movies but I’m not sorry to see the end of the Russo’s marvel run. 

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

I thought that was why she did it too. She was extremely underdeveloped but I thought that when she stood up to Rumlow it was she believed Captain America about Hydra and not because of any feelings she had for Steve. 

My favorite Sharon moment was when Steve tried to make her pretending to his neighbor personal and she immediately and unapologetically pointed out that she was doing her job. If everyone wasn’t so determined to make her Peggy 2.0 she could have worked. 

Right?! And I will forever be bitter that Sharon got short sheeted in WS just so that fucking ScarJo could get the lion's share of screentime. I feel like they could have have had Sharon be the one to go on the run and investigate Fury's shooting -- or hell, have both her and Natasha team up to help Steve and Sam. Then they could have had the Peggy relation reveal and develop Sharon as her own character more. They wouldn't even have to do the romance angle, just have one awesome teamup. How fucking hard would that be?

[Kel Varnsen]

On 9/6/2019 at 5:26 PM, thickplottens said:

 I realize that I'm in a minority here, but I'm not that bothered by Steve's ending. 

I am sort of the same way at this point. Although I just assume comic book rules and figure Steve and Peggy are together in their own alternate timeline. And it is some crazy awesome peaceful technogical utopia. Because Hydra is gone and Bucky is safe, Howard was never killed and hopefully Steve helped him and his son have a better relationship, and they are inventing all kinds of crazy shit together. And maybe he even reaches out to Wakanda and convinces T'chaka to join the rest of the world and share their tech. And even when Thor comes to New Mexico Steve is there to greet and help him.

20 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Right?! And I will forever be bitter that Sharon got short sheeted in WS just so that fucking ScarJo could get the lion's share of screentime. I feel like they could have have had Sharon be the one to go on the run and investigate Fury's shooting -- or hell, have both her and Natasha team up to help Steve and Sam. Then they could have had the Peggy relation reveal and develop Sharon as her own character more. They wouldn't even have to do the romance angle, just have one awesome teamup. How fucking hard would that be?

Or they could have made the under cover nurse/SHIELD agent a much more minor part and then given Maria Hill a bunch more to do. Because Cobie Smulders is awesome.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Kel Varnsen

[Jeebus Cripes]

RE the EVC online harassment: Social media is fucking toxic to the core. I really despise facebook, twitter, all that jazz. I'm not knocking anyone who does enjoy it; whatever rocks your boat and whatnot, but any social scene that's not heavily moderated on the internet is always going to be a haven for trolls and mob mentality. There are almost no consequences for saying whatever vile thought is on one's mind. 

Also, I will never understand why people have trouble separating fiction from reality in these situations. Like, I detest Jennifer Lawrence's Mystique to the point where I will forward scenes with her, but I would never harass the actress in any shape or form, because I don't have the emotional maturity of a twelve year old. People need to grow the fuck up.

[swanpride]

Plus, who the hell even CARES what the actors say or do? I get it with the writers and the directors, but the actors? Yeah, nope.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Or they could have made the under cover nurse/SHIELD agent a much more minor part and then given Maria Hill a bunch more to do. Because Cobie Smulders is awesome.

If Cobie wasn’t busy with her new series I would love a Marvel series just following Maria Hill. It could just be her being exasperated by everyone around her and I would be fine with it. 

5 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

RE the EVC online harassment: Social media is fucking toxic to the core. I really despise facebook, twitter, all that jazz. I'm not knocking anyone who does enjoy it; whatever rocks your boat and whatnot, but any social scene that's not heavily moderated on the internet is always going to be a haven for trolls and mob mentality. There are almost no consequences for saying whatever vile thought is on one's mind. 

Also, I will never understand why people have trouble separating fiction from reality in these situations. Like, I detest Jennifer Lawrence's Mystique to the point where I will forward scenes with her, but I would never harass the actress in any shape or form, because I don't have the emotional maturity of a twelve year old. People need to grow the fuck up.

Very True. The thing that really boggles my mind is when shippers want their pairing to happen in real life and harass the actors real life partners for daring to interfere with their delusions. 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Guest

[Danny Franks]

13 hours ago, thickplottens said:

I remember seeing several interviews with Evans saying that he thought the Steve/Sharon relationship was weird and creepy and was generally disparaging about it. I also remember Hayley saying that she would like to see Peggy & Sharon's relationship explored and that Peggy would feel protective over Sharon, yet that always seem get ignored in these kind of conversations. From what I can tell she just dislikes the Steve/Sharon relationship and I don't see why she should have to hide her opinions because grown adults on the internet are unable to act like decent human beings. 

Something lots and lots of people were saying as soon as it was announced that Sharon Carter would appear in Winter Soldier. And it was creepy. While it worked fine in the comics because it was approached from the opposite direction - Sharon and Steve being a couple while Peggy was her barely mentioned aunt, who had a fling with Steve during the war - it simply wasn't viable after Peggy was established as such a strong character in The First Avenger.

They could have given Steve a different love interest in the present day - Bernie Rosenthal or Diamondback, perhaps - and she'd have had a better chance of being accepted by fans than Peggy's relative.  But even then, that character was on a hiding to nothing because Natasha took the natural place of a love interest in Winter Soldier, and the actual love interest was an afterthought.

Winter Soldier is my favourite of the MCU movies, but I think they'd have been much better off without Sharon, and beefing up Maria Hill's role instead. Steve didn't need a love interest, either in Winter Soldier or Civil War (a movie that already had far too many characters in it).

As for harassing actors or writers or directors on social media? People should get a fucking life. If you don't like their work, don't watch it.

[thickplottens]

35 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Something lots and lots of people were saying as soon as it was announced that Sharon Carter would appear in Winter Soldier. And it was creepy. While it worked fine in the comics because it was approached from the opposite direction - Sharon and Steve being a couple while Peggy was her barely mentioned aunt, who had a fling with Steve during the war - it simply wasn't viable after Peggy was established as such a strong character in The First Avenger.

They could have given Steve a different love interest in the present day - Bernie Rosenthal or Diamondback, perhaps - and she'd have had a better chance of being accepted by fans than Peggy's relative.  But even then, that character was on a hiding to nothing because Natasha took the natural place of a love interest in Winter Soldier, and the actual love interest was an afterthought.

Winter Soldier is my favourite of the MCU movies, but I think they'd have been much better off without Sharon, and beefing up Maria Hill's role instead. Steve didn't need a love interest, either in Winter Soldier or Civil War (a movie that already had far too many characters in it).

As for harassing actors or writers or directors on social media? People should get a fucking life. If you don't like their work, don't watch it.

Oh I definitely agree that the relationship is weird and creepy!

You're right about Sharon being on a hiding to nothing. I'm not really sure why they chose to use her character when they'd already diluted so much of her role - not only by beefing up Peggy's character and having ScarJo as the female lead in TWS, but by having Coulson as the super amazing Shield agent as well. Hopefully the Falcon & Winter Soldier show will give Sharon some good material.

[Raja]

3 hours ago, thickplottens said:

Oh I definitely agree that the relationship is weird and creepy!

You're right about Sharon being on a hiding to nothing. I'm not really sure why they chose to use her character when they'd already diluted so much of her role - not only by beefing up Peggy's character and having ScarJo as the female lead in TWS, but by having Coulson as the super amazing Shield agent as well. Hopefully the Falcon & Winter Soldier show will give Sharon some good material.

Remember by then Coulson was dead to the movie producers. If Sitwell wasn't Hydra he would have been awesome too.

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Winter Soldier is my favourite of the MCU movies, but I think they'd have been much better off without Sharon, and beefing up Maria Hill's role instead. Steve didn't need a love interest, either in Winter Soldier or Civil War (a movie that already had far too many characters in it).

The more I think about it the more I wish they had done just that. You could have even given Maria Hill Sharon's role in Civil War. They could have just said that Peggy was Maria's idol and that is why she was at the funeral, and she was helping Steve because of their years of working together. You could even have Steve mistakenly try to kiss her, but play it like a comic thing where she is like "what the shit was that?".

[Raja]

5 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The more I think about it the more I wish they had done just that. You could have even given Maria Hill Sharon's role in Civil War. They could have just said that Peggy was Maria's idol and that is why she was at the funeral, and she was helping Steve because of their years of working together. You could even have Steve mistakenly try to kiss her, but play it like a comic thing where she is like "what the shit was that?".

Assuming that they didn't have the Far From Home revelation in the long term plan.

[Danny Franks]

18 hours ago, thickplottens said:

Oh I definitely agree that the relationship is weird and creepy!

You're right about Sharon being on a hiding to nothing. I'm not really sure why they chose to use her character when they'd already diluted so much of her role - not only by beefing up Peggy's character and having ScarJo as the female lead in TWS, but by having Coulson as the super amazing Shield agent as well. Hopefully the Falcon & Winter Soldier show will give Sharon some good material.

Sharon Carter would have been a better fit for that Coulson role, now I come to think of it. Introduce her in Iron Man, simply as a SHIELD agent who would be known to comic book fans, and tacitly set up as Steve Rogers' potential future love interest.

12 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The more I think about it the more I wish they had done just that. You could have even given Maria Hill Sharon's role in Civil War. They could have just said that Peggy was Maria's idol and that is why she was at the funeral, and she was helping Steve because of their years of working together. You could even have Steve mistakenly try to kiss her, but play it like a comic thing where she is like "what the shit was that?".

That would have worked really well too. I can definitely picture that attempted kiss, Maria smirking in amusement while Bucky and Sam wince on Steve's behalf, in the car. 

I generally just think they've really wasted Cobie Smulders in the MCU, never giving her enough to do. She's got too much charisma and presence to be Fury's sidekick.

[swanpride]

But Coulson is so much fun….

Anyway I never minded the kiss all that much. I think that its "creepiness" is slightly overstated because for one, Steve didn't even know who Sharon was when he first showed an interest and two, Sharon doesn't look like Peggy at all. It's not different than falling for a woman and then realising that it is the cousin of your former girlfriend. It happens, and it is not the end of the world. It also didn't happen "five minutes after the funeral", but in a situation in which both characters didn't knew if they would see each other again anytime soon. And, frankly, the scene was funny, which is why it is one of my favourite in Civil War. Here, I said it! I think that the reaction of Sam and Bucky makes the kiss worth it. I am only peeved that due to the overreaction of the fandom, there was never a follow up.

[Perfect Xero]

December 15th 1991:

Peggy: I need to run to the store, I forgot to get Howard something for Christmas.

Steve: ...