Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[SimoneS]

What @Danny Franks said. I don't understand how Bucky has taken on this elevated status with some fans. At best, he is a marginal figure, a plot device for Steve's conflict with Tony, T'Challa, Ross, etc. We know more about Sam's experiences in the military and his pain in the first 30 minutes of Winter Soldier than we find out about Bucky's in Civil War. Once Steve secures Bucky in Wakanda, he goes on with his journey of being a superhero. 

23 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Not just in regard to Steve, btw. At the very least they could have added a scene in the battle in which Bucky and Tony share a moment. ANY kind of moment.

Whaa? Tony share a moment with the man who murdered his parents in an epic battle before he dies? That would have made absolutely no storytelling sense. 

Edited August 14, 2019 by SimoneS

[Guest]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

A young man whose most important decisions have been about Bucky. Why did a break out of the propaganda circle to become captain America for real? To Rescue Bucky. Who is the person he grieved over before his last fight against the Red Skull? Bucky. Why did he really die towards the end of The Winter Soldier? Because he couldn't bring himself to fight Bucky once the rest of the world was save. And why did Civil War happen? Because of Bucky. Who did he watch go to dust in Infinity War? Bucky. And who is he talking about to a group of "survivors" later on? Peggy. It doesn't really make that much sense. I can kind of get behind the idea that Thor is able to walk past Loki but not past his mother, since what he wants and needs the most is a good dose of sympathy. But that after everything which happened Bucky doesn't play any role in Endgame at all feels very dissatisfying.

Steve’s most important decisions have been about his own values and beliefs. From the very beginning of Captain America Steve was the man who refused to back down even when everyone (including Bucky) was telling to give up. I think that if Steve was placed in the exact same circumstances with Sam, Natasha, Tony or any of the other heroes he ultimately would have made the same choices because that’s who he is. 

 I don’t understand the need to pit Peggy and Bucky against one another in a battle to determine who was more important too Steve. I disliked Steve’s ending because the movie didn’t have the time to make the happy ending it wanted work but that really doesn’t have anything to do with the characters. 

[swanpride]

Naturally it would have made sense to provide both Tony and Bucky with SOME kind of closure.

[swanpride]

Also, Bucky's "lack of agency" is literally the tragedy of his character. He doesn't "lack agency" because the writers somehow forgot, but because that is the POINT. He decides to follow Steve back into war out of friendship. And then falls from a train and spends the next decades robbed of any agency. Him reclaiming said agency by breaking Hydra's mind control but not being able to escape what he has done against his will or his need to do what has to be done (including allowing himself to get frozen and fighting in Infinity War even though he obviously doesn't want to fight) is breaking my heart every single time. In a way he is more heroic than Steve, because Steve wanted to be a soldier, he always wanted to fight. Bucky never did, he only does it because he feels that he has to.

[Danny Franks]

8 hours ago, swanpride said:

Also, Bucky's "lack of agency" is literally the tragedy of his character. He doesn't "lack agency" because the writers somehow forgot, but because that is the POINT. He decides to follow Steve back into war out of friendship. And then falls from a train and spends the next decades robbed of any agency. Him reclaiming said agency by breaking Hydra's mind control but not being able to escape what he has done against his will or his need to do what has to be done (including allowing himself to get frozen and fighting in Infinity War even though he obviously doesn't want to fight) is breaking my heart every single time. In a way he is more heroic than Steve, because Steve wanted to be a soldier, he always wanted to fight. Bucky never did, he only does it because he feels that he has to.

He doesn't just lack agency, he lacks a point of view. We never see what's going on inside his head, we never see how he feels about everything that he's been through. You can assume certain things, but until we actually spend time with MCU Bucky and hear his thoughts and see how he wants to live his life, it's all just supposition.

And Bucky did want to fight. That's why he joined up. He wasn't drafted or conscripted into the US army. He volunteered, just like Steve kept trying to do. And then he willingly followed Steve, after being rescued. The tragedy of him is that he's been fighting ever since, mostly for the wrong side. But that hasn't been explored in any depth whatsoever, thus far.

[swanpride]

Just because a character isn't monologuing about something it doesn't mean that the movie itself doesn't say something about said character.

Steve says that the he has no right to do less than any other man. Bucky calls him out and points out to him that he might also want to proof himself. He is shipping out, but does he show ANY excitement about this? No, he is pretty much matter the fact, focussing on enjoying his last night in the US to its fullest. That is not a guy who looks forward to war or has any illusions about it. He says it himself: Even worse than Steve getting rejected from the draft is them actually taking him.

Then after the scene in the burning plant, in which Bucky refuses to leave without Steve, and him ensuring that he gets accolades after arriving back in the camp, the celebration in the bar. The Howling Commandos are all singing and bragging. Bucky isn't really part of it, though. He is telling Steve that he doesn't go back to war for Captain America, he is following the skinny guy from Brooklyn.

Then there is the scene in the Winter Soldier, when Bucky starts to remember and Pierce orders to wipe him again. You have him just accepting the bit, resigned to what will happen to him, glaring at his captors but also unable to truly fight them. Don't tell me that there isn't a whole world of emotions in this one look. Or in im staring at the information about himself towards the end of the movie.

Next we have him in Budapest, buying plums and trying to stay away from Steve, even pretending that he doesn't remember at all when he clearly does. Now, Bucky never outright says why he hides away from Steve, but remember how the scene ends? with this resigned "it always ends in a fight". This is clearly a man who doesn't want to fight anymore, but is still prepared for the day when violence will find him again.

And do we really need to know more about Bucky's feeling about his past than "I remember all of them"? Remember that Bucky and Howard knew each other. Howard was the one who flew Steve behind enemy lines so that he could rescue Bucky. And then Bucky ended up killing him. I really don't need Bucky monologuing to understand how he feels about THAT.

We get the same resignation from Bucky again when Black Panther brings him his new arm. He just looks at it with incredible sadness and finally asks "where is the fight?". Does that look like a guy who looks forward to it? To me this looks like a guy who just wants to be left alone, but feels that he has no choice than doing what has to be done. And again, I really don't need him to say it. It is all there.

[mary2013]

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 1:53 AM, swanpride said:

I didn't expect them to end up being a couple. In fact, I prefer them as epic bromance (just like I prefer Steve and Natasha as friends, and Clint and Natasha as friends). But there is no denying that the whole Captain America Saga has always been more about Bucky than Peggy. And I can understand why some people feel that the denying of this bromance in favour for a heteronormative ending which conforms to the really, really old idea that the hero has to get the girl in the end does both the character and the franchise a disservice.

Several posters have talked about how the Avengers are a "found family".  Steve's first "found family" was Bucky.  They are brothers, plain and simple.  That's is why Bucky is so important to Steve.  It is not a bromance.  Steve's feelings for Peggy have nothing to do with his feelings for Bucky.

[Wynterwolf]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

Then there is the scene in the Winter Soldier, when Bucky starts to remember and Pierce orders to wipe him again. You have him just accepting the bit, resigned to what will happen to him, glaring at his captors but also unable to truly fight them. Don't tell me that there isn't a whole world of emotions in this one look. Or in him staring at the information about himself towards the end of the movie.

Both of those scenes kill me. Every. Single. Time.  His eyes are just so dead in that first scene, and so... shocked in that second.  So good.  

[festivus]

Do they ever say whether Bucky enlisted or not? I always assumed he was drafted. Even if he wasn't, I don't think he ever wanted to go like Steve did, he just did his duty. SS's performance in all the movies has always seemed to me like a man that never wanted to fight but does what he has to. He has never seemed like that happy-go-lucky Bucky again to me since the Stark Expo thing in CA although he seemed like he had found some peace in IW before the fight found him again. 

So I bought Endgame yesterday and I'm thinking about watching today but dammit it's my birthday and honestly the movie is darn depressing. I'll probably watch anyway. I haven't forgotten about how beyond the Bucky stuff, it also pisses me off that Steve didn't bother to tell Sam he was fucking off. I know they've said he had a conversation with Bucky but it was still shitty to not tell Sam. I still say I need to see this conversation.

As far as Bucky and Tony, I don't need a moment. I think Tony's a hothead and during the past five years he probably thought about things and forgave a 70 year brainwashed and tortured war hero. Bucky did forgive Tony because he was at the funeral. They'd never be besties or anything but I think there was forgiveness. Tony could probably forgive him easier than he could Steve.  I am looking forward to the Sam and Bucky show. Both characters need more than they've gotten in the movies. I better not be let down.

Do I want to watch this today and watch Tony and Nat die again? Watch Steve be ruined? I don't know. The only thing I find remotely uplifting about this movie is Thor with the Guardians at the end and Nebula's journey.

I did like "on your left" with the portals opening and Cap with mewmew when I saw it at the theater but those big CGI battles are more than my eyes can handle. It's just like one big blur.

This may be the longest post I've written in my life. I'm exhausted.

 

[swanpride]

Sebastian Stan really deserves more credit. He puts more into one look than others do into a while dialogue.

I always assumed that Bucky was either drafted or felt that he had to volunteer because, well, Steve thought that this was the right thing to do and Bucky would never do anything less than him. Though I was also always wondering how Bucky got the rank of a sergeant on what apparently was his first tour (unless it wasn't). But no, the movies never clarified. This would have been a detail interesting to know…

Quote

Several posters have talked about how the Avengers are a "found family".  Steve's first "found family" was Bucky.  They are brothers, plain and simple.  That's is why Bucky is so important to Steve.  It is not a bromance.  Steve's feelings for Peggy have nothing to do with his feelings for Bucky.

 I think we have a slight communication problem here. "Bromance" doesn't mean anything sexual. It means a friendship which runs so deep that it is more than just friendship. It is like brotherhood, except that you can't pick your brother, but you can pick your friends, so it is the mixture of the best of both worlds. It simply indicates a deep emotional connection, nothing more, but also nothing less.

Bucky is everything for Steve. He is his family, he is his best friend (at least until Sam came along to provide some competition), he is the one person in the world who knows Steve better than anyone else. Even Peggy, considering that Peggy doesn't have any childhood memories with Steve. And he is the person in the world who always had Steve's back, even when he was poor, scrawny and unpopular.

[Dandesun]

It's never explicitly stated one way or another in the movies whether Bucky enlisted or was drafted. Research suggest that his number, that he was repeating on the slab in the Hydra facility, started with call numbers that were part of the draft. However, that draft started later than when Bucky appears to have joined the Army but that's a nitpicky factoid.

And, like I say, they never say one way or the other in MCU canon whether or not Bucky enlisted.

There's a certain poetry to the idea that Bucky was drafted and did not want to go to war while Steve was desperate to go to war and couldn't enlist for anything... then they both get the serum (in one form or another) but, again, Steve volunteered while Bucky was experimented on as a POW. One became Captain America and the other became the Winter Soldier. The dichotomy is, for many, what really makes their relationship (however you may want to see it) so important.

616 Bucky grew up on military bases and didn't meet Steve until after Steve became Captain America. But 616 Bucky is not MCU Bucky. MCU Bucky is an amalgam of a couple of different characters from 616 so whatever is canon in comic continuity isn't so in the MCU.

I mean, if that were the case... Sam would actually be able to talk to birds.

I'm not even going to deny that I'd love to see that in F&tWS.

[Kel Varnsen]

My kids bought me the blu ray so I have been watching it again with them over the last few nights. It is still super exciting, but the damn time travel makes absolutely no sense. Especially when Bruce is talking to The Ancient One and says that when they bring back the stones it deletes the alternate timelines. But it does kind of prove what I always thought that it is damn near impossible to write a good time travel story unless you make it super basic. Also speaking of time travel how did they shrink Thanos's ship and get it to time travel if Future Nebula only had one does of Pym Particles?

As for the ending and Cap I am just going to go with what I know about Marvel time travel from comics and assume tha Cap made an alternate timeline. And as for how he was able to jump back to the main dimension, well if he lived in a world where Hoaward wasn't killed and Pym never became a weird loner they probably would have figured it out. Also I found it interesting that when Steve is talking to Natasha after his support group meeting he mentions that he is the guy who can't get over things and let them go. Well his love of Peggy is like the ultimate thing he could never get over.

[Anduin]

4 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Also speaking of time travel how did they shrink Thanos's ship and get it to time travel if Future Nebula only had one does of Pym Particles?

Thanos' science types investigate and reverse engineer the particles? We don't know what kind of replication technology Thanos has. There might have been some time for him between Nebula's capture and the attack.

[Crs97]

 Especially when Bruce is talking to The Ancient One and says that when they bring back the stones it deletes the alternate timelines.

I am reminded of Ferris Bueller thinking he could subtract mileage off the borrowed car by driving it backwards.

[Raja]

In the real world the US did not accept volunteers after December of 1942. It was to maintain a steady stream of manpower determined by how selective services classified men. Only draftees were sent to basic training on the Pentagon's schedule . Since Sergeant Barnes was in Italy and not France with a New York unit it possible that he enlisted  before the lock out or was an activated National Guardsmen. While Steve Rogers spent 1942 trying to get around a low selective service classification before the SSR accepted him 

[Jeebus Cripes]

2 hours ago, Anduin said:

Thanos' science types investigate and reverse engineer the particles? We don't know what kind of replication technology Thanos has. There might have been some time for him between Nebula's capture and the attack.

Yeah, pretty sure I read an interview with either the writers or directors --not that they can agree on much-- where they state that Ebony Maw reversed engineered it. 

5 hours ago, Dandesun said:

There's a certain poetry to the idea that Bucky was drafted and did not want to go to war while Steve was desperate to go to war and couldn't enlist for anything... then they both get the serum (in one form or another) but, again, Steve volunteered while Bucky was experimented on as a POW. One became Captain America and the other became the Winter Soldier. The dichotomy is, for many, what really makes their relationship (however you may want to see it) so important.

I'm on board with the theory that he was drafted for this very reason. It's just better storytelling, IMO.

[blugirlami21]

I would say the same about Peggy. In regards to Steve their interactions while sweet have been understandably minimal. No one is saying that Peggy isn't important to Steve, I just don't know that she should still be so important when we get to Steve in endgame. He regressed so much in that movie in my eyes and that had very little to do with what he did at the end of the movie.  I feel like so much of Peggy's agency is lost in the minutia of Steve deciding to change their past. 

I never once thought that Bucky and Steve were going to have an epic romance on screen. I doubt anyone does. I did think that we would get at least one proper scene of them reuniting. In a movie full of time travel, there was no time for that? 

Steve has what I consider to be three vital relationships, Bucky, Peggy, and Sam.  Endgame managed to venerate two out of three. For me as a goodbye to Captain America Endgame failed to carry through the stories and relationships told in the other Captain America movies.

As a goodbye to Tony Stark, it was perfect. I couldn't ask for a better ending for Tony and I'll always love Endgame for that at least.

[swanpride]

I would say he has five….Bucky, Peggy, Sam, Tony and Natasha.

When I emphasis the importance of Bucky, it is not like I want to take anything away from Peggy, quite the opposite. I feel that Endgame did them both a disservice. Steve/Peggy always worked for me largely because it was the missed opportunity, the relationship which could have been for the ages but wasn't meant to be. And I really enjoyed watching Peggy in Agent Carter getting over Steve and finding her place in life. I dislike the idea that this is now undone by Endgame.

Speaking of Bucky not wanting to be in the war, someone once made the observation that Steve, Bucky and Sam are all representing one of the major wars the US was involved in. Steve is the WWII soldier which wanted to fight a just war, and was honoured for it. Bucky is the Soldier, who was forced to fight in Vietnam, and was branded a murderer for it. And Sam is the Soldier, who went to Afghanistan because it was part of his job, and nobody really cared what happened there.  

[mary2013]

18 hours ago, swanpride said:

 I think we have a slight communication problem here. "Bromance" doesn't mean anything sexual. It means a friendship which runs so deep that it is more than just friendship. It is like brotherhood, except that you can't pick your brother, but you can pick your friends, so it is the mixture of the best of both worlds. It simply indicates a deep emotional connection, nothing more, but also nothing less.

Bucky is everything for Steve. He is his family, he is his best friend (at least until Sam came along to provide some competition), he is the one person in the world who knows Steve better than anyone else. Even Peggy, considering that Peggy doesn't have any childhood memories with Steve. And he is the person in the world who always had Steve's back, even when he was poor, scrawny and unpopular.

No, I understand Bromance is not sexual.  I always considered it means a strong friendship.  My point was Steve and Bucky are brothers.  We seem to agree on that.  It's just you would never say brothers have a bromance.. The bond between brothers is deeper than a friendship.  IMO

[Dandesun]

A friend of mine suggested that I was able to take what I really hated about Endgame and get over it with my 'canon never bothered me anyway' mantra because I am a "Fandom Old" -- no offense intended. It made me laugh but, yeah, I have seen canon do horrible things to characters I love... horrible storylines and just...

Look, I am forever going to be salty about Han and Leia not making it in the movies, okay? And it's never going to be fixed in canon because Han is dead and so is Carrie. And that's what fandom is for anyway, take what you don't like and turn it into something beautiful. Even if you're the only one who thinks that.

I don't like Steve's ending. I don't like Natasha getting killed off and it barely being a blip on the radar. I don't like that Steve and Bucky barely exchanged words and I do take the creators to task for that one because they're the ones that built the relationship up to BE that important. When you very specifically have Bucky get dusted in front of Steve, to have him be the first to get dusted and to frame it from Steve's POV so Steve can be the one devastated by it and then you don't follow through in the next movie... the fans didn't fucking imagine what they did. THEY SPECIFICALLY STATED WHY THEY FRAMED IT THAT WAY. And then... whatever.

I hate that Steve didn't come face to face with the Red Skull. I mean, why have him there at all? Steve and Bucky are the only ones that ever even SAW that guy in the entire Avengers universe at this point but, sure, let's have Clint and Natasha go there because... huh?

Also, don't use an entire movie to tell me that Back to the Future was bullshit because that is never going to fly.

One of the things I loved most about Agent Carter was that Peggy got to be MORE than Steve's fleeting love interest. She had her life. She moved on. She thrived. 100% less Steve and look how well she did for herself. But, you know, whatever... I can still dream up whatever the fuck I want for Endgame because for the things I hated there were tons of things I absolutely loved.

And that's just the way it goes. If I want to say that Steve went back, danced with Peggy, they got Bucky away from Russia and Hydra and formed a tripod relationship, I can do that. If Steve came back old and said 'this is what the near constant sex with you and Peg has done to me... you should see what you look like IN THAT ALTERNATE UNIVERSE I CREATED' I can do that too.

I think how they handled a few things in the movie was pretty damn lousy but overall ten years of MCU has been done pretty damn well.  I wish I could say the same for X-Men. (Oh, and the Russos would have snapped all the X-Men except for Wolverine? Sure. Be more cliche and expected, would you? But that's me... I loathe Wolverine. And I also hate the near constant attempt to push Jean/Logan as a viable ANYTHING.)

I'm just used to being disappointed by canon. That's NORMAL. And I'll bitch about it every now and then but, for the most part, I just dream up something I like better.

[Wynterwolf]

Heh, "fandom old" here too, but... I will never not be salty about this.  Everything about this was big (meaningful and impactful), and they fucked up big (and for really terrible and easily avoidable reasons, IMO).  I can imagine numerous scenarios that 'fix it', but... probably 10 years from now, someone's going to mention Endgame around me and end up being very, very sorry.  😄 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Wynterwolf

[swanpride]

Yeah, same here. I mean, I didn't hate Endgame. Tony's arc was pretty much the perfect ending for the character, it was exactly what I expected. I adore what they did with Nebula. Thor's arc worked too and the fact that Scott now missed even more of Cassie's childhood just breaks my heart. I am still a little bit bitter that yet again the moment a director got to play with Tony Stark, Cap was shoved aside in favour for him. I just didn't expect that happening with this writer/director team up. I didn't expect them to handle my favourite characters that badly, especially since they were the very same people who elevated them to that status in the first place.

But at least I can play around with the idea of a world in which Loki escaped with the Tessaract and Hydra thinks that Bucky is one of them and another one in which everything on earth happened the same way, but Thanos was removed from the equation in time.

[blueray]

28 minutes ago, swanpride said:

But at least I can play around with the idea of a world in which Loki escaped with the Tessaract and Hydra thinks that Bucky is one of them and another one in which everything on earth happened the same way, but Thanos was removed from the equation in time.

Steve, not Bucky. Steve told them so in the elevator during that same sequence of loki stealing the tessaract.

[Dandesun]

1 hour ago, Wynterwolf said:

Heh, "fandom old" here too, but... I will never not be salty about this.  Everything about this was big (meaningful and impactful), and they fucked up big (and for really terrible and easily avoidable reasons, IMO).  I can imagine numerous scenarios that 'fix it', but... probably 10 years from now, someone's going to mention Endgame around me and end up being very, very sorry.  😄 

I can still go on a rant about 'Legends of the Fall' at the drop of a hat and that movie is 25 years old. 

My reaction to Steve's ending in Endgame will depend on my mood. It will either get the reaction of 'Ugh... that nonsense' or 'LET ME TELL YOU HOW I FEEL ABOUT THAT IN EXCRUCIATING DETAIL!!'

It might also depend on the amount of wine I have.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Dandesun

[MelloYellow]

3 hours ago, Dandesun said:

When you very specifically have Bucky get dusted in front of Steve, to have him be the first to get dusted and to frame it from Steve's POV so Steve can be the one devastated by it and then you don't follow through in the next movie... the fans didn't fucking imagine what they did.

It's not that big of a deal.

The exact same thing happened with Steve/Sam at the end of Civil War, only for all of Steve/Sam (and Nat's) airtime to be allocated to Viz & Wanda in Infinity War.

[festivus]

I just finished watching it again. Thoughts:

The battle was easier to see on my TV. Saw lots that I missed the first time.

Little Peter Parker was there with all the ladies in their girl power shot. He was his adorable self all through that battle and then broke my heart with Mr. Stark. I cried which I did not do at the theater.

I cried even more at the Thor and Frigga scene. Goddamn that shit broke my heart. The eat a salad line did not bother me because of the way Rene said it. It was with sadness for seeing how broken her son from the future had become.

I knew Nat's death was coming so I really did feel her and Clint's friendship this time. He totally tried for it to be him and I could see on her face that she found some peace with her decision. She couldn't move on and the only acceptable outcome for her was getting everyone back and she would pay that price. I have to respect her agency.

Tony's face too when Strange held up his finger. He saw right then that Strange knew the whole time that Tony would have to die. RDJ is a fucking amazing actor and I've loved him since the first time I saw him in Less Than Zero. (You know he devastated me in that movie so much that I didn't watch it again until just a few weeks ago. 32 years. Damn.)

Nebula is a goddess.

Bucky was fucking sad as shit and no-one can convince me otherwise. That's how SS played it. That's how I saw it. 

Sam does deserve the shield. He is a good man.

Steve can still suck it. Fuck off to the real whoever's decision it was to end his arc this way. Tony and Nat got it better and they're fucking dead.

I love Thor and I don't listen to anyone that thinks Chris Hemsworth isn't a great actor. He stole this whole movie and IW too.

If I had any other thoughts I forgot them. Monster posts are hard.

[festivus]

Oh, I remembered the other thought I had. I guess Tony and Steve created another alternate timeline when they went to 1970 so I'm hoping in that one that Tony and Howard got to have a better relationship. I did like that Tony was able to finally make his peace with his dad. Oh but now I  thought about how precious Morgan will have to be without her dad and I'm sad again. Dammit.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, festivus said:

The battle was easier to see on my TV. Saw lots that I missed the first time.

Little Peter Parker was there with all the ladies in their girl power shot. He was his adorable self all through that battle and then broke my heart with Mr. Stark. I cried which I did not do at the theater.

Nebula is a goddess.

Nebula's arc from Guardians v2 to IW to Endgame was amazing. It really stood out as something in Volume 2 and Inan glad that the Russo's were able to continue her story and do it well.

As for Peter it was great that Tony hugged him when he came back. Such a good call back to the it's not a hug I am opening your door thing from Homecoming.

And I agree about noticing other little things the second time. Watching the battle at home, I am pretty sure that Rhodey was wearing a different suit in the battle than he was before the compound gets blown up.

[Danny Franks]

9 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Nebula's arc from Guardians v2 to IW to Endgame was amazing. It really stood out as something in Volume 2 and Inan glad that the Russo's were able to continue her story and do it well.

Nebula was honestly my favourite part of Endgame. What a journey for her character, from that angry villain in Guardians, to the genuine hero she became in this movie. I can only assume that it's down to Karen Gillan's performance, and the writers realising that she's really good and deserved the chance to do more than just be a one movie bad guy.

Her growth as a character is so good, and I can't wait to see her in  Guardians 3, where we should see that growth reflected in her relationships with the rest of the crew.

I'm all for Guardians characters showing up in Thor 4, or Captain Marvel 2, just to get more Nebula and see her grow even more.

[festivus]

6 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Her growth as a character is so good, and I can't wait to see her in  Guardians 3, where we should see that growth reflected in her relationships with the rest of the crew.

It should be interesting to see what will happen with her and this Gamora that didn't have the moments with her that the original Gamora did. Now Nebula is the evolved sister. 

[stealinghome]

I'm low-key rooting for a Nebula/Rhodey romance, I can't lie. I just thought those two played so wonderfully off of each other in Endgame, and that Nebula seemed to connect with Rhodey in a way she hasn't with anyone else. And I want to see her get some happiness at the end of the day!

[swanpride]

Nebula was amazing.

I was btw rewatching Ragnarök and realized that there is a scene in which Thor rants at Valkyrie for hiding away and drowning in alcohol, telling her that he would go out there and rescue Asgard because "That's what heroes do."

I am still trying to decide if this is hilarious or heart-breaking in hindsight...

[Guest]

On 8/4/2019 at 8:11 AM, clack said:

Steve: the man from the past who, having completed his mission in the present, gets to return home

I think it was the right ending for Steve but that they really botched the execution.

I wish they had given it a little more time and let Steve have time with Hulk, Bucky, and Sam and have two 'flashbacks".

Basically let Hulk know that Steve had somehow managed to tell Nat that they did it when returning the soul stone (and show the  moment) so we'd know Clint would know.

Let Cap and Bucky share a moment about Steve's decision not to come back and show when Cap came face to face with Peggy and decided not to come back.

Then let Cap pass the shield to Sam and have that moment.

The way it was, reuniting with Peggy was hollow (and the callback to them dancing was predictable and lame)  Bucky hanging back and sending Sam to talk to talk to Cap felt wrong.  It made passing the shield to Sam feel wrong.

[Jeebus Cripes]

On 8/15/2019 at 6:02 PM, festivus said:

I just finished watching it again. Thoughts:

The battle was easier to see on my TV. Saw lots that I missed the first time.

Little Peter Parker was there with all the ladies in their girl power shot. He was his adorable self all through that battle and then broke my heart with Mr. Stark. I cried which I did not do at the theater.

I cried even more at the Thor and Frigga scene. Goddamn that shit broke my heart. The eat a salad line did not bother me because of the way Rene said it. It was with sadness for seeing how broken her son from the future had become.

I knew Nat's death was coming so I really did feel her and Clint's friendship this time. He totally tried for it to be him and I could see on her face that she found some peace with her decision. She couldn't move on and the only acceptable outcome for her was getting everyone back and she would pay that price. I have to respect her agency.

Tony's face too when Strange held up his finger. He saw right then that Strange knew the whole time that Tony would have to die. RDJ is a fucking amazing actor and I've loved him since the first time I saw him in Less Than Zero. (You know he devastated me in that movie so much that I didn't watch it again until just a few weeks ago. 32 years. Damn.)

Nebula is a goddess.

Bucky was fucking sad as shit and no-one can convince me otherwise. That's how SS played it. That's how I saw it. 

Sam does deserve the shield. He is a good man.

Steve can still suck it. Fuck off to the real whoever's decision it was to end his arc this way. Tony and Nat got it better and they're fucking dead.

I love Thor and I don't listen to anyone that thinks Chris Hemsworth isn't a great actor. He stole this whole movie and IW too.

If I had any other thoughts I forgot them. Monster posts are hard.

Sebastian Stan's acting fucked my head up immediately in that moment. I absolutely knew Steve wan't coming back. The "I'm gonna miss you" line combined with the sad eyes pretty much laid out Steve's decision for me right there. 

I'll admit that I haven't really seen Hemsworth in much aside from these films, but he's always been solid as Thor, and he's been superb from Ragnarok on. 

[swanpride]

Sebastian Stan is one of the reasons why I am so excited for Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Hopefully he can stretch his acting chops even more in this one.

[Jeebus Cripes]

Just watched the credits sequence on YouTube and legit teared up when the main theme hits and the autographed montage plays. Amazing how sound and vision can catch you in the feels like that. 

[festivus]

7 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

I'll admit that I haven't really seen Hemsworth in much aside from these films, but he's always been solid as Thor, and he's been superb from Ragnarok on. 

He was a bit green back then but he still was so funny as the god among mortals and then his despair when he could no longer pick up the hammer. I actually like the first Thor quite a bit better than a lot do. But by this movie; damn. When he was trying to explain his appearance to Frigga and why his eye was different, the way he could barely lie. You could just see all his depression and the fact that he knew it was her day to die and it was just heartbreaking. Also the part with Thanos when he said, "I went for the head this time". The utter defeat in his voice. I really do think he stole these last two movies because his scenes are what I think of the most. I haven't seen Hemsworth in anything else but now I want to.

[Crs97]

On 8/15/2019 at 7:02 PM, festivus said:

Tony's face too when Strange held up his finger. He saw right then that Strange knew the whole time that Tony would have to die.

And the look on Strange’s face when he held up the finger.  Two great actors having such a moment without saying a word.

[Dandesun]

14 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

I'll admit that I haven't really seen Hemsworth in much aside from these films, but he's always been solid as Thor, and he's been superb from Ragnarok on. 

I remember Hemsworth from about 10 minutes at the beginning of Star Trek. It was brief but, for me, memorable. And when I discovered he had been cast for Thor I looked him up on imdb saw he was George Kirk and felt very comfortable with him in the role. I was like 'They cast someone who can act.'

That fact that he could get as huge as he did for Thor was beside the point. I didn't worry about him being a mere pretty face.

That he turned out to be as funny as he is... icing.

[stealinghome]

If you haven't seen the 2016 Ghostbusters, it is worth watching for Hemsworth (and also because it's just a genuinely fun movie). He's hilarious in it.

[festivus]

2 hours ago, Dandesun said:

I remember Hemsworth from about 10 minutes at the beginning of Star Trek

Yeah, that's the only other thing I've seen him in and I didn't know it was him when I saw the movie at the theater. I guess it was before Thor, I don't remember, I'm bad with time.

[paramitch]

Thanks for the great discussions here on ENDGAME, y'all! I really enjoyed them.

I finally saw EG a week or two back, and thoroughly enjoyed it, although I was frustrated by some of the story choices, and it felt uneven and ungainly overall to me.

Like some here, I was unhappy at Natasha as yet another female soul stone sacrifice on the altar of manpain (and yes, I want to throw things at the exec who insisted that it be Nat). The scene was powerful and beautifully acted by both Renner and especially ScarJo, but I couldn't get over the fact that I was watching a woman who had already monologued about her inability to have kids fighting to die so that her friend could go home to his wife and kids. It's tone-deaf and gross to me no matter how I look at it. 

I was incredibly saddened that Bucky and Cap again were given no moments, especially given the very end reveal (I wasn't a fan). I absolutely feel like Bucky's friendship (or however people want to define it) is far more central to Cap's life than Peggy (much as I love her), so the choice to awkwardly push Peggy as suddenly something Cap couldn't let go of just didn't work for me.

And it does feel to me like it's heavyhanded and deliberate. Several articles and posts shared throughout this thread were very eloquent about it, but I agree with them that Bucky's story has been a powerful aspect of Cap's since the beginning, and for me, at least, vice versa. 

And while I love Sam's friendship with Steve (and got choked up at "on your left"), I was unhappy that Sam was the focus of that final interaction with Steve. It felt slightly artificial to me. And despite the fact that Hayley Atwell was selling the hell out of the moment, I will always deeply dislike the end coda of Steve and Peggy's dance. It's sloppy and there's no way it works on so many levels. As many others noted, there are massive issues with the Snap-back, and I have a problem with the fact that Tony literally put his daughter above billions of Snapped lives (versus just allowing a reset of that 5-year period).

I was worried about Thor's story here, since I hate fat suits and hate it when weight is used as a joke. But I actually thought this was okay -- Thor's been through so much, and Hemsworth is such a good actor, that I thought his situation was poignant and moving, and even the humor was pretty gentle. I loved the scene with Rene Russo especially.

I also thought Karen Gillan was a total MVP here as Nebula. I've always loved how versatile she is, and she brings this real hidden sadness (and, occasionally, humor and gentleness) to Nebula. I've loved Nebula's journey through the movies and for me it's one of the most successful.

I did think Tony's story was moving and believable, and I was ridiculously delighted when Pepper joined him in the battle -- for me, that was right up there with "Avengers assemble" and Thor's delight that Cap could wield Mjolnir. And I thought RDJ was just superb throughout, like, on an Oscar-worthy level, and his final moments were beautifully sad (and Gwyneth was lovely there as well, with that echo of "You can rest now").

It's not a perfect movie, and I had real issues with its treatment of Cap, Bucky and poor Nat, as well as its internal logic -- but I did thoroughly enjoy it, and I watched it twice. And I definitely felt like it was a pretty decent farewell to a decade of Avengers films.

Edited August 18, 2019 by paramitch
forgot an adjective

[festivus]

22 minutes ago, paramitch said:

Like some here, I was unhappy at Natasha as yet another female soul stone sacrifice on the altar of manpain (and yes, I want to throw things at the exec who insisted that it be Nat). The scene was powerful and beautifully acted by both Renner and especially ScarJo, but I couldn't get over the fact that I was watching a woman who had already monologued about her inability to have kids fighting to die so that her friend could go home to his wife and kids. It's tone-deaf and gross to me no matter how I look at it. 

It did bother me but I made my peace with it because I think ScarJo wants to do the Black Widow movie and then be out but Renner still wants in so he's doing that Hawkeye show and he never did get much to do in these movies. I also try to think of it as not just because she wants Clint to get home because he's got kids, she wants to save all her family. That's the most important thing to her and she'll do what it takes to make it happen. I think she finally feels she can wipe the red from her ledger which is something she's had a hard time with.

29 minutes ago, paramitch said:

It's not a perfect movie, and I had real issues with its treatment of Cap, Bucky and poor Nat, as well as its internal logic -- but I did thoroughly enjoy it, and I watched it twice. And I definitely felt like it was a pretty decent farewell to a decade of Avengers films.

It's not a perfect movie but I love, say, 90% of it. I liked the Captain America parts. The Steve Rogers parts, not so much.

33 minutes ago, paramitch said:

And I thought RDJ was just superb throughout, like, on an Oscar-worthy level, and his final moments were beautifully sad (and Gwyneth was lovely there as well, with that echo of "You can rest now").

He was. I'd really like to see him get considered but it's a hard road. I think only Heath Ledger got an Oscar for being in a superhero movie. Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone, I don't keep up with award stuff much. I loved Gwynnie too. She's a strange bird but I think she's always brought it as Pepper.

[paramitch]

50 minutes ago, festivus said:

He was. I'd really like to see him get considered but it's a hard road. I think only Heath Ledger got an Oscar for being in a superhero movie. Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone, I don't keep up with award stuff much. I loved Gwynnie too. She's a strange bird but I think she's always brought it as Pepper.

While Gwyneth comes across to me as increasingly insufferable in real life (and far too often utterly unaware of her own privilege), I do think she's a terrific and dependable actress.

One thing that I always think is interesting is that while GP comes across to me as being rather chilly in real life, she's almost always really warm and approachable onscreen, and I thought she was always wonderful as Pepper, especially in the underrated Iron Man 3 ("Wow! That was really violent!").

And yeah, superheroes usually don't get Oscar nominations (Ledger was definitely an exception), but I'm kind of hoping RDJ makes the cut this year anyway. He probably won't, but I thought he was just superb here.

Oh, and I also want to echo that I thought Cumberbatch was really good in those few brief moments with RDJ too. Just a few split seconds, but so much emotion and recognition between Tony and Strange there.

[Jeebus Cripes]

4 hours ago, festivus said:

It's not a perfect movie but I love, say, 90% of it. I liked the Captain America parts. The Steve Rogers parts, not so much.

This perfectly sums up the way I feel about it. 

3 hours ago, paramitch said:

One thing that I always think is interesting is that while GP comes across to me as being rather chilly in real life, she's almost always really warm and approachable onscreen, and I thought she was always wonderful as Pepper, especially in the underrated Iron Man 3 ("Wow! That was really violent!").

And yeah, superheroes usually don't get Oscar nominations (Ledger was definitely an exception), but I'm kind of hoping RDJ makes the cut this year anyway. He probably won't, but I thought he was just superb here.

Gotta echo the sentiment here. Don't much care for her in real life, but I usually like her on screen, and I thought her portrayal of Pepper was great throughout the films. Her chemistry with RDJ is wonderful and their banter is always charming.

Totally in agreement about RDJ, too. The scene with Tony ranting at Steve was so emotionally heavy and raw; it was just devastating to me. In fact, everything from his first shot in the film up until he collapses after said rant is just aces. He's brilliant throughout the movie, but all those quiet moments on the ship with Nebula really underscore how nuanced RDJ can be, even when playing someone as flamboyant as Stark. 

[swanpride]

They all are pretty amazing. I suspect that Marvel Studios has the best casting director in town. She does such a great job picking out talents instead of stars.

[paramitch]

One thing I forgot to mention was that I did find the opening sequence with Clint and his family to be really, genuinely spooky and tense. It was all idyllic and lovely but with palpable dread, because we know what's about to happen and he doesn't.

Some other little moments I loved:

• Nebula's interactions with Tony on the ship. So much sweetness and humor. And I love this hidden idea that she was so guarded when he was awake, but so gentle with him when tending to him while he was asleep.
• Although I am not quite sold on SmartHulk (something about it feels too pat to me), I loved the entire scene between the Ancient One and Bruce. I love Tilda and there was so much quiet intensity and humanity in that scene between them.
• Paul Rudd is so charming and so funny, so often, it's easy for that to become his sole purpose in the Avengers movies, so I loved that we had that genuinely terrible moment of Scott searching the memorials for his daughter's name. However: I still felt a gut-punch when he's confronted by a nearly grown teenaged Cassie. It's poignant that this is permanent because of Tony's insistence upon handling the Snap -- after two movies of his own, we know that Scott is incredibly close with his daughter, but he won't get that time back, ever.
• I thought the entire Tony/Cap/Hulk sequence in New York was wonderful and very funny, and a welcome bright spot. Hulk having to go monosyllabic! Disguises! Butt jokes! And complete with Loki as usual taking full advantage of every opportunity! It felt like a heist caper.
• Loved Steve in the elevator in this new timeline as an echo of one of the best sequences in any of the Marvel movies (I love Winter Soldier so much).
• I loved the revelation that Natasha had assumed leadership, and that she'd been pretty much singlehandedly holding the Avengers together out of sheer force of will. She deserved that, and I liked that, although I wish her fate had been different. Fury would have been proud.
• I will always love everything about Tony and Peter's friendship, and how it brings out Tony's fatherly side. I also felt this was a story that felt deeply connected to IW, where for me a lot of EG felt like a second completely separate story.
• I did find myself wishing for more of a moment for Wanda (and more of a mention of Vision), since their story surprised me as being by far the one I was most invested in in IW (both actors are so underrated, and Bettany was really beautiful in those final moments). But I did love Thanos going, "I don't even know who you are," and Wanda just gritting, "You will."
• I loved SmartHulk greeting Valkyrie with "Angry girl!" And then Valkyrie riding a pegasus in the final battle. Because WINGED HORSE.
• I loved the strong implication that New Asgard is basically the same place where Odin made his farewells to Thor and Loki.
• Thor's relationship with Rocket is still one of my favorite things about these two films. It's incredibly funny but also sweet and moving.
• JARVIS! Actual real JARVIS appearing! Also, because I adore James D'arcy so much -- he's a wonderful actor and always seems to be so underrated.
• Tony getting a moment with his Dad. I wish we'd seen his Mom too, but it was genuinely lovely (and I loved the cameo in that sequence by Yvette Nicole Brown).

Quote

Totally in agreement about RDJ, too. The scene with Tony ranting at Steve was so emotionally heavy and raw; it was just devastating to me. In fact, everything from his first shot in the film up until he collapses after said rant is just aces. He's brilliant throughout the movie, but all those quiet moments on the ship with Nebula really underscore how nuanced RDJ can be, even when playing someone as flamboyant as Stark. 

@Jeebus Cripes, agreed. Another reason I loved that moment was that it was a clear call back to Civil War, and how (to me) Tony is STILL wrong in his POV on that (he's willing to compromise on freedoms for "armor around the world" and Cap isn't, and I'll always be on Cap's side on that). But it was totally in-character for him, and gorgeously acted by RDJ.

Last but not least -- because I love their journeys as characters so much (I'm a sucker for redemption), I'm bummed that Gamora and especially Loki have been reset. But I'll reserve judgment to see how they're handled in the universe going forward.

Thanks for the conversations! Sorry I'm so late. 

[Kel Varnsen]

14 hours ago, paramitch said:

I was unhappy that Sam was the focus of that final interaction with Steve. It felt slightly artificial to me. 

Keep in mind that that was only Cap's last onscreen interaction not necessarily his last interaction with the characters. He didn't disappear back in time and he didn't keep over and die. I would be surprised to find out that he gave the shield to Sam and then just walked away without saying anything to anyone else. 

Especially since I assume that Cap didn't come back to their timeline until after Peggy was dead. Hell depending on how the serum works and ages him he could have come back after his great grandchildren were dead. And for all I know cap could still live in the main timeline as an old man for 30 more years.

[MelloYellow]

I was glad Steve's last interaction was with Sam. The only friend who never betrayed him and remained by his side until the very end.

[festivus]

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

One thing I forgot to mention was that I did find the opening sequence with Clint and his family to be really, genuinely spooky and tense. It was all idyllic and lovely but with palpable dread, because we know what's about to happen and he doesn't.

Some other little moments I loved:

• Nebula's interactions with Tony on the ship. So much sweetness and humor. And I love this hidden idea that she was so guarded when he was awake, but so gentle with him when tending to him while he was asleep.
• Although I am not quite sold on SmartHulk (something about it feels too pat to me), I loved the entire scene between the Ancient One and Bruce. I love Tilda and there was so much quiet intensity and humanity in that scene between them.
• Paul Rudd is so charming and so funny, so often, it's easy for that to become his sole purpose in the Avengers movies, so I loved that we had that genuinely terrible moment of Scott searching the memorials for his daughter's name. However: I still felt a gut-punch when he's confronted by a nearly grown teenaged Cassie. It's poignant that this is permanent because of Tony's insistence upon handling the Snap -- after two movies of his own, we know that Scott is incredibly close with his daughter, but he won't get that time back, ever.
• I thought the entire Tony/Cap/Hulk sequence in New York was wonderful and very funny, and a welcome bright spot. Hulk having to go monosyllabic! Disguises! Butt jokes! And complete with Loki as usual taking full advantage of every opportunity! It felt like a heist caper.
• Loved Steve in the elevator in this new timeline as an echo of one of the best sequences in any of the Marvel movies (I love Winter Soldier so much).
• I loved the revelation that Natasha had assumed leadership, and that she'd been pretty much singlehandedly holding the Avengers together out of sheer force of will. She deserved that, and I liked that, although I wish her fate had been different. Fury would have been proud.
• I will always love everything about Tony and Peter's friendship, and how it brings out Tony's fatherly side. I also felt this was a story that felt deeply connected to IW, where for me a lot of EG felt like a second completely separate story.
• I did find myself wishing for more of a moment for Wanda (and more of a mention of Vision), since their story surprised me as being by far the one I was most invested in in IW (both actors are so underrated, and Bettany was really beautiful in those final moments). But I did love Thanos going, "I don't even know who you are," and Wanda just gritting, "You will."
• I loved SmartHulk greeting Valkyrie with "Angry girl!" And then Valkyrie riding a pegasus in the final battle. Because WINGED HORSE.
• I loved the strong implication that New Asgard is basically the same place where Odin made his farewells to Thor and Loki.
• Thor's relationship with Rocket is still one of my favorite things about these two films. It's incredibly funny but also sweet and moving.
• JARVIS! Actual real JARVIS appearing! Also, because I adore James D'arcy so much -- he's a wonderful actor and always seems to be so underrated.
• Tony getting a moment with his Dad. I wish we'd seen his Mom too, but it was genuinely lovely (and I loved the cameo in that sequence by Yvette Nicole Brown).

Love all your points except the Wanda one but that's just because Wanda and Vision bore the crap out of me. I'm hoping that will change with their show which I will watch despite not caring about them. Hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised.

I LOVE that Jarvis showed up in this movie even if it was only for a minute. I did think Tony might have had a bit more of a reaction to him though. I don't guess they've ever said when he passed but I'm assuming Tony did have a close relationship with him since he modeled his AI after him.