S11.E09: It Takes You Away

[Eulipian 5k]

47 minutes ago, ae2 said:

Sure, and the sonic screwdriver didn't show up until 1968, and in the 70s the Doctor spent a good chunk of episodes without the TARDIS.

So please tell me that "The Church of the Mainframe" with its gratuitous nudity is not a Classic Who fundamental.

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, truther said:

Every episode is a comparatively low-stakes, low-key story packed with tons of interesting stuff. Like a cute little frog that speaks for an entire universe. 

Honestly, it's refreshing. I was getting so worn out. But they said that before the season kicked off. I'd be fine with 2 or 3 series of this flavor. 

[Eulipian 5k]

Solitract Makeover, other interfaces:

• The Face of Bo
• Dianna Rigg (just to hear the voice again)
• Prem (Yaz' interface)
• Reinette Poisson (only would work for Ten)
• A large sandwich (less traumatic for Graham)
• A large Red Button (Ryan can't resist)

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

So please tell me that "The Church of the Mainframe" with its gratuitous nudity is not a Classic Who fundamental.

Nope. :D Thankfully!

The Doctor Who universe is made up of many, many parts. They all don't have to be mentioned all the time to remain true, or for the show to still be Doctor Who. This season has its problems, but not mentioning the words 'Time Lord' or 'Gallifrey' or including any well-known enemies are not among those problems. Those are all things that have happened before. And I get it, as viewers we find comfort in the familiar - but as Doctor Who fans, it pays to be flexible, because this is a show that re-creates itself constantly, and to cope with that you have to be prepared to adapt to each new status quo, whatever form it might take next. You won't like every iteration, but that's okay, because another will be along soon enough. That's how it goes.

[Dobian]

5 hours ago, basil said:

Me too. I thought the frog was wonderfully whimsical. It made perfect sense to me that the entity would be pleased by that form, with Grace's voice, given Graham's obvious love for her.

I was a bit perplexed by the bad cgi of the frog, it looked like it was moving in stop motion animation.  Was this a shout out to the special effects of 1970s Dr. Who shows?  LOL.  But even with a good frog the whole dialogue itself felt very thrown together and wasn't very insightful at all.  "Well I know I said I would stay but your universe is about to explode, but I really like you!"  "Oh okaaaaaaay...bye".

[Mabinogia]

4 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Solitract Makeover, other interfaces:

• A large sandwich (less traumatic for Graham)

But then Graham might have eaten the universe and the Solitract, wait, the Solitract could then be part of our universe while living in Graham's stomach, and Graham wouldn't go hungry. It's total win/win. 

Still, I loved the frog. I thought it was adorable. 

[cardigirl]

On 12/4/2018 at 10:56 PM, DavidJSnyder said:

Time Lords didn't get named until The War Games (1969).  Gallifrey wasn't named until The Time Warriors in 1973, 10 years after the show premiered, and wasn't referred to by name until The Runaway Bride in the new series. None of that is fundamental.

So all of the history building of the New Who has been dispensed with for the most part, which makes me rather sad. I liked that history.  

 

17 hours ago, ae2 said:

Sure, and the sonic screwdriver didn't show up until 1968, and in the 70s the Doctor spent a good chunk of episodes without the TARDIS.

Maybe once upon a time these things weren't fundamental, but like the sonic and the TARDIS, the Time Lords and Gallifrey have been a staple of DW for a long time now. At the very least, they have been an important part of New-Who, and a fundamental aspect of the Doctor's personality.

For better or worse, the new showrunner has made a deliberate effort to distinguish his show from what it has been, and I think this is a very good observation. In general, the Doctor identifies as very human right now. It's a stark contrast from Capaldi's Doctor, who barely understood humans at all. 

To be fair, this was a fate-of-the-universe episode :)

Yes.

[Llywela]

23 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

So all of the history building of the New Who has been dispensed with for the most part, which makes me rather sad. I liked that history.  

None of the history of the show has been dispensed with. Not mentioning it for a run of episodes doesn't mean it no longer exists or never happened! The Doctor's origins and history remain the same whether she chooses to mention them or not.

If anyone dispensed with the history of the show it was Russell Davies in season one, since he came up with the concept of the Time War specifically to create a divide between Old and New Who, so that his rebooted show could establish itself on its own terms, without overwhelming new viewers by the weight of its history. He chose not to refer back to the show's history and mythology even when doing so would have strengthened its internal universe, which is why we see extraterrestrial threats being dealt with by the army instead of UNIT in that first season.

But guess what? Once that first season was over and the show had been re-established, references to the past began to creep back in, bit by bit and then more and more.

And both that first season and that season are 100% Doctor Who, just as those early years in the 1960s before Time Lords and their planet had been named were also Doctor Who, just as the run of years in the 1980s when the Doctor didn't have a sonic screwdriver were also Doctor Who. The Doctor is still the Doctor whether male or female, whether sympathetic or abrasive. Doctor Who is Doctor Who in all its iterations. It is all Doctor Who. As viewers, the onus is on us to adapt to its many different faces.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Llywela

[cardigirl]

9 minutes ago, Llywela said:

None of the history of the show has been dispensed with. Not mentioning it for a run of episodes doesn't mean it no longer exists or never happened! The Doctor's origins and history remain the same whether she chooses to mention them or not.

 

Okay, but I enjoy a good mention once in awhile.

Quote

If anyone dispensed with the history of the show it was Russell Davies in season one, since he came up with the concept of the Time War specifically to create a divide between Old and New Who, so that his rebooted show could establish itself on its own terms, without overwhelming new viewers by the weight of its history. He chose not to refer back to the show's history and mythology even when doing so would have strengthened its internal universe, which is why we see extraterrestrial threats being dealt with by the army instead of UNIT in that first season.

But guess what? Once that first season was over and the show had been re-established, references to the past began to creep back in, bit by bit and then more and more.

And both that first season and that season are 100% Doctor Who, just as those early years in the 1960s before Time Lords and their planet had been named were also Doctor Who, just as the run of years in the 1980s when the Doctor didn't have a sonic screwdriver were also Doctor Who. The Doctor is still the Doctor whether male or female, whether sympathetic or abrasive. Doctor Who is Doctor Who in all its iterations. It is all Doctor Who. As viewers, the onus is on us to adapt to its many different faces.

(Bold emphasis is mine.)

As writers, I think the onus is on them to entertain and engage the viewers.  I'm not a fan of saying that if someone doesn't care for something it must be because they don't "get it."  I have enjoyed much of New Who and the many versions of the Doctor, and I understand that the Doctor can be anybody, I'm just saying that this particular version doesn't feel like the show I've come to enjoy.  There are elements I've appreciated.  I love the cast.  Graham is my favorite.  But if a show becomes an "onerous" duty to adapt to, well then, I'm thinking something has gone off the rails.  :)

Edited December 6, 2018 by cardigirl

[Llywela]

My point is just that it is better to say 'this isn't my preferred flavour of Doctor Who' than 'this isn't Doctor Who anymore', because no matter what the show does, there is precedent for it in its 55 year history. It is all Doctor Who. We don't have to like all of it, but we do have to accept it as part of the show. Because the truth is that no matter what era of the show you pick, you will find both viewers who consider it their favourite and viewers who absolutely hate it. There is a piece of Who for everyone, and that is because it changes so much - so this era that some find so disappointing will also have fans for whom it is doing exactly what you said it should do: entertaining and engaging. That's what I mean when I say it is all Doctor Who.

Heck, I found the Clara era beyond onerous - I hated it more than I have ever hated any era of this show, and I have seen all of it, 55 years worth of Who. I thought Moffat took liberties with the show that he never should have taken. But it was still Doctor Who - and as much as I hated it, there are others who absolutely adored it. It is all Doctor Who, and the writers will never be able to please every single fan.

[ElleryAnne]

It's been five days since I saw the episode, and I still don't know whether I liked or disliked it overall.  It was basically Through The Looking Glass,  and What The Doctor Found There.  I do know that I rolled my eyes at the frog, but I liked the Doctor's conversation with it.  I think it may be one of those episodes where I'll have to watch it a couple more times, many months apart, and see how it grabs me. 

I thought the episode was pretty good on some of the character beats for the companions (I'm loving Graham and Ryan's relationship (even if it's presented with occasional flashing arrows from the writers saying "Watch how cleverly we're building this relationship")), and I liked Hanne.  Erik should be boiled in oil.

[Mabinogia]

4 hours ago, cardigirl said:

As writers, I think the onus is on them to entertain and engage the viewers. 

I, for one, am highly entertained and engaged by this season. So I think the writers are doing brilliantly. If you aren't entertained by what they are doing, that is on you, to choose to watch or to go watch something else. They can't cater the show to you specifically. They have millions of fans. Many of whom are enjoying this season. The very foundation of this show is change. It is constantly evolving. Sometimes you will like what it becomes, sometimes you will not. But the writers aren't failing their audience because some fans don't like the changes that are happening. 

I get the disappointment. I felt it for three years when I had to give up the show. But because of that, I am enjoying the hell out of this season because it is the Dr. Who that I enjoyed. Sorry that it's not the one you enjoyed. Maybe the next show runner will be more to your taste.  

I am going to enjoy this season. There is not a single ep I wouldn't rewatch. I love the small character moments, I love the crowded Tardis, I love the Doctor's enthusiasm about everything. It's like a storm (all the end of the world stress week after week after week) has finally passed and now she can just enjoy herself. With so many sci-fi type shows tending towards dark, end of humanity, the world is doomed stories, I am enjoying this lighter, happier Doctor. I wish everyone else did, because it's always more fun when we're all happy, but the nature of fandom is that you can NEVER please all the fans all the time. And in this time of the internet it really must suck to be a show runner because the negative always seems to outweigh the positive online. Not just in fandom, but in everything, facebook, news, social media, forums, etc. It's all so negative. I think that's why I am liking this season. It feels more uplifting than it's been in a while. 

[cardigirl]

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

My point is just that it is better to say 'this isn't my preferred flavour of Doctor Who' than 'this isn't Doctor Who anymore', because no matter what the show does, there is precedent for it in its 55 year history. It is all Doctor Who. We don't have to like all of it, but we do have to accept it as part of the show. Because the truth is that no matter what era of the show you pick, you will find both viewers who consider it their favourite and viewers who absolutely hate it. There is a piece of Who for everyone, and that is because it changes so much - so this era that some find so disappointing will also have fans for whom it is doing exactly what you said it should do: entertaining and engaging. That's what I mean when I say it is all Doctor Who.

Heck, I found the Clara era beyond onerous - I hated it more than I have ever hated any era of this show, and I have seen all of it, 55 years worth of Who. I thought Moffat took liberties with the show that he never should have taken. But it was still Doctor Who - and as much as I hated it, there are others who absolutely adored it. It is all Doctor Who, and the writers will never be able to please every single fan.

5

I seem to remember plenty of comments about Doctor Who being ruined by Clara and Moffat.  I'm not the first, nor am I the ONLY fan to be disappointed with parts of this season.  Hell, I was disappointed with parts of Peter Capaldi's season. 

26 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I, for one, am highly entertained and engaged by this season. So I think the writers are doing brilliantly. If you aren't entertained by what they are doing, that is on you, to choose to watch or to go watch something else. They can't cater the show to you specifically. They have millions of fans. Many of whom are enjoying this season. The very foundation of this show is change. It is constantly evolving. Sometimes you will like what it becomes, sometimes you will not. But the writers aren't failing their audience because some fans don't like the changes that are happening. 

I get the disappointment. I felt it for three years when I had to give up the show. But because of that, I am enjoying the hell out of this season because it is the Dr. Who that I enjoyed. Sorry that it's not the one you enjoyed. Maybe the next show runner will be more to your taste.  

I am going to enjoy this season. There is not a single ep I wouldn't rewatch. I love the small character moments, I love the crowded Tardis, I love the Doctor's enthusiasm about everything. It's like a storm (all the end of the world stress week after week after week) has finally passed and now she can just enjoy herself. With so many sci-fi type shows tending towards dark, end of humanity, the world is doomed stories, I am enjoying this lighter, happier Doctor. I wish everyone else did, because it's always more fun when we're all happy, but the nature of fandom is that you can NEVER please all the fans all the time. And in this time of the internet it really must suck to be a show runner because the negative always seems to outweigh the positive online. Not just in fandom, but in everything, facebook, news, social media, forums, etc. It's all so negative. I think that's why I am liking this season. It feels more uplifting than it's been in a while. 

I'm glad people are enjoying this season.  I like aspects of it.  I've said so.  I miss the other parts of the Who-verse that I mentioned.  Doesn't make me a bad fan or a poor watcher. 

 

By the way, if the solitract wanted to be a part of our universe so much and claimed to know us so well, wouldn't they have known that Grace would never have risked losing Ryan?  I mean, that was such a dead giveaway that it wasn't really Grace. Stupid other universe. 

[ganesh]

6 hours ago, Llywela said:

It is all Doctor Who. 

"whether you like it or not."

What is different in this series of Doctor Who since the reboot is that they took the narrative direction to tell self contained stories (no two parters either) and not include the classic villains (daleks). So in that sense it's different. With such a big change with Thirteen, I think it was a good choice. I also think it was a good choice to have a 2 hour opener to really get to know everyone. And given the Doctor is pushing 2000, I can buy that's there going to be certain points in her life where she just wants to take some friends to go see the coronation. 

And if they didn't, then you know there would be people sniping about "it's the same thing over and over again." People were already complaining about how the Doctor was "too PC" before an episode even aired! Really, the fact that Thirteen is a woman only just came up in the witch episode. 

[Mabinogia]

42 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

Doesn't make me a bad fan or a poor watcher. 

I don't think any of us are bad fans. I think we all care very much. It would be nice if the show could please all of us all of the time but it can't. So we each get "our" season. I'm sorry this isn't yours but I'm going to selfishly enjoy every second of it.

Dr Who will outlast us all. I think that is the only constant. And it is because the show is willing to change and try new things, or go back to old things that haven't been around for a while. As much as I have hated some seasons and loved others, I am in awe of the show. I love that, when faced with having to recast their main character they came up with a system that has allowed the show to span decades. I find it fascinating how it has evolved, how it has adapted, and I am curious to see where it goes next even though I am loving where it is right now and wish we could get more of this before it changes again.

Sadly, what I like usually doesn't last. I'm like the kiss of death for most shows. I think that might make me a bad fan. lol In that, if I'm a fan, it's bad news for the show. This is one of the few that can withstand my jinxiness. Rock on DW in all your forms both good and bad. Because my bad is someone else's good and vice versa. 

[Eulipian 5k]

9 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Doctor Who is Doctor Who in all its iterations. It is all Doctor Who. As viewers, the onus is on us to adapt to its many different faces.

This sounds like the talking to the Eleventh, Twelfth, and the Paternoster Gang gave to Clara in Deep Breath, LOL. We will now go to our rooms without any supper.

[taanja]

On 12/4/2018 at 2:01 PM, Eulipian 5k said:

Christmas Special demanded: Graham wants to meet the Earl of Sammich!

Seriously, do Time Lords eat? (besides, Fish fingers, custard, Jammy Dodgers + biscuits...) With all his travels I at least expected the tenth would be a gourmand. Missy often joked about the companions as "snacks". The Eleventh also knew that Oswin needed eggs for a souffle, but we never hear them opine about all there is to eat in all the universes they have visited.

Or is the Doctor vegan, with the occasional handful of dirt for location purposes?

Jelly babies

[taanja]

10 hours ago, Llywela said:

None of the history of the show has been dispensed with. Not mentioning it for a run of episodes doesn't mean it no longer exists or never happened! The Doctor's origins and history remain the same whether she chooses to mention them or not.

If anyone dispensed with the history of the show it was Russell Davies in season one, since he came up with the concept of the Time War specifically to create a divide between Old and New Who, so that his rebooted show could establish itself on its own terms, without overwhelming new viewers by the weight of its history. He chose not to refer back to the show's history and mythology even when doing so would have strengthened its internal universe, which is why we see extraterrestrial threats being dealt with by the army instead of UNIT in that first season.

 

Ummm... No....I am presently watching the new Who first season (Christopher Eccleston & Billie Piper) I am on the ep when Aliens land on earth (Aliens of London/World War Three) and yes. UNIT is there front and center!

The thing I notice that seems to be missing this season -- is the charm -- the wonder -- the joy---the delight--- that used to exist between the Doctor and his (her) companion(s) Maybe the companions were more fleshed out? 
I don't know?

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

I call that thing you mention "The Magic" of Doctor Who. Like "The Magic" of Christmas,  I'm too, am missing it in this season's DW. 

[AudienceofOne]

11 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I get the disappointment. I felt it for three years when I had to give up the show. But because of that, I am enjoying the hell out of this season because it is the Dr. Who that I enjoyed. Sorry that it's not the one you enjoyed. Maybe the next show runner will be more to your taste.  

Even through the worst of Moffatt (and it was truly the WORST) I didn't give up the show because I knew that in a few years it would change. That's the show's biggest draw. It's eminently flexible. I'm enjoying this season far more than any other season since Moffatt's first. All the others have been dumpster fires IMHO, it's just the size of the fire that changed.

[Pattycake2]

I found this episode murky. Blind girl in a cabin, Gollum in the cave, frog.  It seemed that none of those were fully developed.  Maybe if they had stuck with only two bits, it would have been better.  I just haven’t seen any depth to this season and I don’t know who this Doctor is.

[basil]

Quote

As writers, I think the onus is on them to entertain and engage the viewers. 

Quote

I, for one, am highly entertained and engaged by this season. So I think the writers are doing brilliantly. If you aren't entertained by what they are doing, that is on you, to choose to watch or to go watch something else. They can't cater the show to you specifically. They have millions of fans. Many of whom are enjoying this season. The very foundation of this show is change. It is constantly evolving. Sometimes you will like what it becomes, sometimes you will not. But the writers aren't failing their audience because some fans don't like the changes that are happening. 

I'm with you. No, I don't think anyone is a "bad" fan for not liking this doctor. I find her charming and her enthusiasm is infectious. I thought Tennant a bit too angsty, but he eventually won me over. LOVED  the awkwardness of Eleven. Wasn't a huge fan of Capaldi, but I'll give him another go. The Doctor Whos of my childhood, I'll always adore.

 

...and I'll say it again - I loved the frog.

Quote

Erik should be boiled in oil.

Yup - or eaten by moths.

[Last Time Lord]

I love that even when being told she’s just a construct, Grace was still so polite and cheerful about it. 

Grace truly was too pure for this Earth. 

I love the frog. It’s so classic Who special effect that doesn’t quite work, but because of that, it works amazingly. 

On 12/7/2018 at 3:00 PM, basil said:

I'm with you. No, I don't think anyone is a "bad" fan for not liking this doctor.

I don’t know, some of the shit I’ve read online...

Edited December 26, 2018 by Last Time Lord

[Chaos Theory]

Didn't people hate Moffatt,  Clara,  Bill?  Hell there I here people hated Amy Pond.  So any version of Doctor Who that isn't up your personal  standards is not real Doctor Who? 

Who gets to decided?  Is there a voting booth or is it just one guy?  

[treasaigh]

I've read the whole thread, and I don't see that anyone has noticed that Eric actually never intended to come back or take his daughter with him.  At about 46:06 you can see that he wrote on the wall, starting with "Assume her dad is dead".  Then goes on to other stuff which isn't the easiest to read.  So among his other transgressions, he abandoned his daughter with forethought!

I'd attach a screenshot, but I'm not tech savvy enough for that!

[DanaK]

Just now, treasaigh said:

I've read the whole thread, and I don't see that anyone has noticed that Eric actually never intended to come back or take his daughter with him.  At about 46:06 you can see that he wrote on the wall, starting with "Assume her dad is dead".  Then goes on to other stuff which isn't the easiest to read.  So among his other transgressions, he abandoned his daughter with forethought!

I'd attach a screenshot, but I'm not tech savvy enough for that!

The Doctor, not Eric, wrote those words for the team before they went into the AntiZone. She claimed for Hanne’s sake that she was drawing a map

The words were something like “Assume her dad is dead. Keep her safe. Find someone to take care of her”

[treasaigh]

11 hours ago, DanaK said:

The Doctor, not Eric, wrote those words for the team before they went into the AntiZone. She claimed for Hanne’s sake that she was drawing a map

The words were something like “Assume her dad is dead. Keep her safe. Find someone to take care of her”

Oh!  Well now don't I feel silly.  :-)

[tv-talk]

On 12/6/2018 at 5:35 PM, taanja said:

The thing I notice that seems to be missing this season -- is the charm -- the wonder -- the joy---the delight--- that used to exist between the Doctor and his (her) companion(s) Maybe the companions were more fleshed out? 
I don't know?

I think it's because the Doctor was brought down to almost companion level this season. One standard throughout all the decades of Who is that regular human companions are somehwta in awe of the Doctor and the Doctor loves them in the way an adult loves children. The Doctor sees in humans qualities that are unique and endearing while at the same time seeing humans as simpletons to an extent, or perhaps as just very, very naive. In this season tho, I feel that dynamic was barely there and had to be added in with incongruous lines here and there. The Doctor was so out of sorts for much of the series that she was more just one of the gang in the Tardis rather than the usual The Doctor. Hell, a friggin oven salesman figured out how to destroy the Dalek rather than her. That IS much different than most any other season of DW that I can recall.

[theatremouse]

On 12/5/2018 at 1:58 PM, Dobian said:

I was a bit perplexed by the bad cgi of the frog, it looked like it was moving in stop motion animation.  Was this a shout out to the special effects of 1970s Dr. Who shows? 

In the moment, I thought the frog was a puppet, not computer generated. I don't have any source for that though. Just how it looked to me.