S14.E07: Unhuman Nature

[Bobcatkitten]

I just am not going to hold a grudge against Jack for one comment when Dean was possessed by an evil entity vs. all the other actions as a whole that he has shown for Dean. 

[salmondean]

24 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I just am not going to hold a grudge against Jack for one comment when Dean was possessed by an evil entity vs. all the other actions as a whole that he has shown for Dean. 

This is my feeling as well. I understand why some people had a knee jerk reaction to Jack saying that and I totally get why some people might not enjoy his character, but considering that Jack actually was tortured by Michael in the last season and was in the AU world long enough to become very well acquainted with how badly Michael ravaged it and its people, I can understand why he would claim to want to kill Michael and stop him from destroying their own world as well, even if it was at the cost of Dean. We see later that this was probably just said in a moment of anger without the actual will to follow through though; when Dean comes back soon afterwards, Jack isn't the slightest bit suspicious and immediately embraces Dean. I also seriously, seriously doubt that he would have said the same thing to Sam's face about Dean. It seemed like he was just having a bit of a tantrum during that episode and I don't entirely blame him for it under the circumstances. 

[7kstar]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  Plenty of evidence that Michael has 'bugged' Dean in order to gain access to the curent planning of TFW.  The fuzz out is likely a slip of Michael's control.  He used Sergei to set up the experiment because he fit the bill nicely as a patsy.

This would have potential in an interesting storyline. Time will tell...

[7kstar]

2 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I just am not going to hold a grudge against Jack for one comment when Dean was possessed by an evil entity vs. all the other actions as a whole that he has shown for Dean. 

Not holding a grudge as I do think he was looking at we need to stop Michael anyway necessary.   I do think they have wasted opportunities, but then they did the same with Mary as well.  One extra line of dialogue could have solved it, but the direction they picked seems wasted.  The best scenes involved Dean, Sam, Cas & Jack; Jack & Dean.  So this ep didn't suck it just didn't land well.  And the cure for Jack with the archangel grace smelled like a BIG trap.  I'm just not sure that I care enough and this is the main issue I have.  

Even Michael's big bad doesn't seem like a big deal so why should I be scared of him?  Since death means nothing if they want the character back, then going life and death is more like a big joke.  Almost like the red shirt from the old Star Trek story days.  If that makes sense.

[MysteryGuest]

We always come full circle back to the main issue on the show, and IMO, that's the writing.  You have Michael loose in our world, possessing one of our heroes.  He's turned run-of-the mill monsters into super-charged monsters.  He also seems to have disappeared for no reason.  Then there's the whole Lucifer/Nick thing, which I personally could live without, but still...it's a shortened season.  Surely there's enough story there for them to write 20 interesting stories, even allowing for the traditional MOTW episode and the 300th episode.  It makes no sense to me.

I know nothing at all about the writers on this show, but do they actually work on other shows/projects while simultaneously working on SPN?  It can't be this hard to write a good episode.

[salmondean]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

We always come full circle back to the main issue on the show, and IMO, that's the writing.  You have Michael loose in our world, possessing one of our heroes.  He's turned run-of-the mill monsters into super-charged monsters.  He also seems to have disappeared for no reason.  Then there's the whole Lucifer/Nick thing, which I personally could live without, but still...it's a shortened season.  Surely there's enough story there for them to write 20 interesting stories, even allowing for the traditional MOTW episode and the 300th episode.  It makes no sense to me.

I know nothing at all about the writers on this show, but do they actually work on other shows/projects while simultaneously working on SPN?  It can't be this hard to write a good episode.

That's my main issue with the Nick/Lucifer plotline as well. I think it's something that could be done in an interesting way but, as you said, it's already a shortened season as it is. I thought it was bad enough spending so much time on Lucifer during season 12 when all the BMOL stuff was going on,especially since the plotlines rarely seemed to intersect in a way that was actually meaningful. I mean, I think the BMOL provided that egg thing in LOTUS or whatever but for the most part, it felt like the Lucifer plotline was from a totally different season. In fact, I very often forget that it was season 12 and often accidentally lump it into season 11's Lucifer shenanigans. And now in season 14 it looks like we're heading there again even though the Michael thing and the AU hunters seem like more than enough to sustain the season as far as plot goes. Not to mention they also need to resolve the whole "Heaven is all jacked up" storyline from last season. 

[BabySpinach]

1 hour ago, salmondean said:

I also seriously, seriously doubt that he would have said the same thing to Sam's face about Dean. It seemed like he was just having a bit of a tantrum during that episode and I don't entirely blame him for it under the circumstances. 

 

2 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I just am not going to hold a grudge against Jack for one comment when Dean was possessed by an evil entity vs. all the other actions as a whole that he has shown for Dean. 

I was more focused on the inconsistency of Jack's behavior rather than his unsympathetic statements on their own. I don't necessarily hold a grudge against him for 14.02 anymore, but it still sticks out like a sore thumb against the rest of his limited, fairly simple characterization.

I guess I have to accept that Jack didn't mean what he said in 14.02 and was just in a particular emotional place. But if that's the case, I also don't enjoy pissy manchildren throwing "tantrums" by taking their personal problems out on others and letting their insecurities/baggage completely override their feelings toward people they're supposed to care about.

Dean had even saved Jack's life, but there wasn't so much as a speck of gratefulness to be found. If someone had done something similar to save my life, I'd at most be glumly accepting of their death if there really was no other way. I sure as hell wouldn't be advocating or pushing for it. I'd feel that I owed them a debt, and that they deserved better than being collateral damage after everything they'd sacrificed for me. That'd be a natural human reaction, yet the supposedly pure-hearted cinnamon roll went the complete opposite route.

And there's still the fact that if Dean had said these things, he would have been far more heavily criticized (and I also would have been part of that criticism). Why the double standard for Nougat Boy? What has he done to earn so many free passes and hand waves when our main characters have suffered far worse than he has, yet haven't whined nearly as often or freely (or argued that a loved one's death was necessary because of their own personal headspace on a particular day, as seems to be the consensus)?

Jack in 14.07 and 14.06 was not as bad. The writers should stick to that instead of writing him as an perpetually whinging manbaby surrounded by enablers who should have told him to get over himself ten times over by now.

[Dobian]

So one minute Jack is having total systemic organ failure and the next he's cruising with Dean and going fishing.  Okay.

[catrox14]

This is a silly headline because a joy ride means you a stole a car and drove it intending to bring it back. Dean owns the Impala LOL.

‌
 

Quote

 

Supernatural: Jensen Ackles on Dean & Jack's Impala Joy Ride
Jensen Ackles tells us about the driver's lesson he took Alex Calvert on before letting him film in Baby.
Interview Kayti Burt
Dec 3, 2018

In 14 seasons of Supernatural, Dean (Jensen Ackles) has only let a few people behind the wheel of his beloved 1967 Chevrolet Impala, a vehicle he affectionately refers to as "Baby." (Last season, Baby even got her own POV episode, proving just how integral this car is to the show and to Dean's character.)

This is why it was such a big deal to see Dean let Jack behind the wheel in last week's episode. Apparently, the scene was a big deal for Ackles, as well. Den of Geek chatted with the Supernatural actor at the show's 300th episode party celebration, where he told us about making sure actor Alex Calvert, who plays Jack, was ready for the responsibility...

"Before I had even read [the scene], I had our stunt coordinator knocking on my door saying, 'Hey, have you read this episode yet?'" recounted Ackles. "And I was like, 'No, it's two episodes away. I usually try to read them a little closer together.' And he said, 'Well, Alex is gonna be driving the car with you in it.' And I was like, 'What?'"

For Ackles, the strong reaction wasn't personal. He walked us through his thought process...

"I haven't had the time to have the relationship that I have built with Jared [Padalecki], obviously, and Misha [Collins], or Mark Pelligrino," said Ackles. "But, I knew him well enough to know he wasn't an idiot, and he was a respectful guy, and he was careful, and he was conscious about what he was doing."

When Ackles found out Calvert would, in fact, be driving #1, the car he drives, he knew he had to take action. He told the stunt coordinator he wanted to take Calvert for a driving lesson.

"The first thing I asked Alex was, 'What are you driving?' Because I wanted to know what kind of car he was used to driving. And it was not a car that was anything close to the car that he would be driving," said Ackles, pointing out just how large the engine of the Impala is.

"So I was like, 'I want you to get in the car, and I want to sit next to you,'" recounted Ackles. "And so he and I took off. And I would say he was very safe. It was almost like ... it was weird. It almost felt like a driver's ed class, or course. And I was like, 'Make a left here. Keep your hands on the wheel. Keep your hands on the wheel.' But, it was like a father teaching his son how to drive. He did great. It was awesome. I never felt bad. It was a fun scene to shoot."

And the finished product ended up as one of the best scenes of the season thus far...

 

 

[ahrtee]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And the finished product ended up as one of the best scenes of the season thus far...

Of course, that's a very low bar they've set...

[ZennyKenny]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And the finished product ended up as one of the best scenes of the season thus far...

I will have to agree with this. And not just because the rest of the season has been... ugh, the less said the better... but because it was a very quality scene. 

[BoxManLocke]

I can't stop thinking about this episode. It wasn't even that bad, but talk about an eye-opener. I need to vent.

 

The writers are perfectly okay just completely negating their own season finales in a matter of weeks. Michael!Dean was done and dusted after a couple of episodes and Lucifer's back after seven. Great fucking job.

 

Why feel anything when potentially interesting storylines are on the horizon ? They're just going to get ignored or dealt with super quickly. Why feel anything when characters get killed ? They're just going to be brought back. I could deal with the "inconsistent" writing, the borderline fanfiction/parody storyline ideas, the absence of character development for the leads, the criminally underutilized side characters, the cheap-ass CGI, the amateurish editing and lazy as fuck directing. As long as at some point in the season there was a payoff for watching. But now they just take that away too.

 

When nothing matters, the only thing worthwhile that's left to discuss is the amount of screentime allocated to each characters and actors. That shit isn't all over the SPN communities because the fandom is garbage, it's because WHAT THE FUCK ELSE ARE PEOPLE SUPPOSED TO TALK ABOUT ?

 

At some point the writers just forgot there are rules in storytelling for a reason, or maybe they decided Supernatural just didn't need them. Either way, fuck 'em. I'm off this sinking ship.

 

I can't believe I stuck around for so long and when the finish line in basically in sight I can't do it anymore. I should have started binge-watching during the summer years ago, but I chose to keep watching live out of some dumb loyalty to the community. So I guess it's kind of my fault too.

 

And the worst part is, these dumbass writers have such quality characters and talented actors on their hands, you can still feel the magic sometimes, even in episodes where nothing fucking happens like this one. That's how badly this show is being wasted on them.

[ILoveReading]

On 11/30/2018 at 2:12 PM, Aeryn13 said:

This is truly a piece of dialogue for me where I don`t know what they meant. So I`m curious to know what other folks think about it. 

The way the scene was framed it did seem like Jack was focusing on Dean.  I read it as Dean, not because  Jack thinks Sam and Cas don't matter but just because Dean was in front of him.

It was the same with when Cas commented that it was harder to lose a son, after I got past my eye rolls, because its way too soon for any of them to be thinking of Jack as a son, I was wondering was Cas just referring to Dean in that scene or all of them, because Sam and Cas were also focused on Dean.

The framing of both those scenes was confusing.  

[FierceCritter]

As soon as I saw the scenes in The Empty, I could hear the groans, curses and screams of a few dozen PTV SPN forum regulars.

I had the urge to group hug them as they shivered in rage, and do what I could to reassure them all would be ok... it'll all be ok...

Edited December 4, 2018 by FierceCritter
Empty. Not Black.

[Dobian]

18 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

I will have to agree with this. And not just because the rest of the season has been... ugh, the less said the better... but because it was a very quality scene. 

Yeah the season is pretty atrocious with some very inept writing and plotting.  I continue to enjoy Jack as a character though.  The genuineness of the actor really does shine through and bringing him on as a regular I think was one of the better decisions the show has made in recent seasons.  Though I still miss Crowley.

[MysteryGuest]

Are we positive that the creature in The Empty was actually Lucifer?  Could it have been the keeper of the Empty waking up again?  I know he looked completely different this time, but there's no reason why Lucifer would look like the Terminator anymore than the keeper of the Empty would.  Maybe he's the one who's awake again, only this time, he's really pissed.  This could involve Billie again, as she's told them that messing with other worlds and bringing back the dead is going to bite them in the ass one of these days.  I know it's a long shot, but I will do a happy dance if it's not really Lucifer.  Please let me live in my fantasy world a bit longer.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Are we positive that the creature in The Empty was actually Lucifer?  Could it have been the keeper of the Empty waking up again?  I know he looked completely different this time, but there's no reason why Lucifer would look like the Terminator anymore than the keeper of the Empty would.  Maybe he's the one who's awake again, only this time, he's really pissed.  This could involve Billie again, as she's told them that messing with other worlds and bringing back the dead is going to bite them in the ass one of these days.  I know it's a long shot, but I will do a happy dance if it's not really Lucifer.  Please let me live in my fantasy world a bit longer.

Anything's possible, but I think the red eyes were supposed to signify Lucifer.  And, IIRC, Jack woke Cas up and then Cas woke the Empty up.  So, I imagine Lucifer will end up waking the Empty up, then annoy him, and be sent back to earth.  Because the Empty doesn't like be annoyed.

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Anything's possible, but I think the red eyes were supposed to signify Lucifer.  And, IIRC, Jack woke Cas up and then Cas woke the Empty up.  So, I imagine Lucifer will end up waking the Empty up, then annoy him, and be sent back to earth.  Because the Empty doesn't like be annoyed.

I'm grasping at straws, I know, but until we know for sure...  Maybe the Keeper (don't know what else to call him) woke up first this time because he wasn't as sound asleep as before?  Since he's supposedly never woken up before and no one has ever gotten out of the Empty, it's possible.  This is all just wild ass speculation based on my absolute refusal to believe that Lucifer isn't dead.  I would more than welcome the pissed off Keeper as the new big bad.

[FlickChick]

Sorry @MysteryGuest, Buck/Lemming are running the show (along with Dabb) and they have a hard-on for Lucifer, the character and apparently Pellegrino in any form - Nikifer or Lucifer. So there is ZERO CHANCE that Lucifer is not alive and will ultimately end up in his "perfect, iron-proof vessel" Pellegrino. It infuriates me that Dean's sacrifice to accept Michael into himself in order to end the threat of Lucifer on the world and on Jack and Sam in the room with him, is just a joke to these smug writers who don't give a damn about canon or anything/anyone else except their pet. Fuck 'em!

[MysteryGuest]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Sorry @MysteryGuest, Buck/Lemming are running the show (along with Dabb) and they have a hard-on for Lucifer, the character and apparently Pellegrino in any form - Nikifer or Lucifer. So there is ZERO CHANCE that Lucifer is not alive and will ultimately end up in his "perfect, iron-proof vessel" Pellegrino.

I know, but it's just completely stupid that a human praying could wake up someone in the Empty.  It was farfetched enough when Jack did it.  Oh well, I shall remain in my bubble of denial until I'm forced to do otherwise.

[Bergamot]

Even if I set aside the whole debacle of the Nick/Lucifer storyline, this episode still felt unsatisfying to me. I have to say that Jack's storyline doesn't really matter to me much more than Nick's does.  I admit that I enjoyed very much the scenes of Dean and Jack on their little road trip, but it is the character of Dean that makes those scenes work for me, adding depth and charm to them, not the character of Jack. If it had been someone else with Jack, for example Bobby, taking Jack out and letting him drive and going fishing with him, I am sure that I would have been wanting to fast-forward through their scenes. After all, I can't recall anyone finding the scene with Bobby teaching Jack to box especially memorable or delightful or special.

I don't hate the character of Jack, and I don't have anything against the actor, but I think the writers have pretty much failed to make him work for me. They have been so incredibly heavy-handed about making Jack special and lovable that it seems to me as if the harder they try with him, the less I want to see of him.

One thing that I think would have helped in this episode is if the show maybe had Dean and Jack talk to each other about certain things -- for example if Jack had talked to Dean about how he had been ready to sacrifice Dean to get rid of Michael. And maybe Dean could have explained to Jack about what he was going through when Jack was born, and why he believed Jack was dangerous during that time. I think that Dean has actually had a more interesting relationship with Jack than Cas or Sam, with all their unending and unconditional acceptance and praise and support. But the writers don't seem to want to do anything with this, except make Dean appear guilty and wrong for not relating to Jack from the start exactly as Cas and Sam did.

I was really sorry that Jack was not healed at the end of the episode, because I feel like the last thing the show needs with Jack is for the writers to try to milk this story for EVEN MORE heavy-handed and treacly drama. For me it's not exactly a problem because it is a soap-opera type story; it's because it is a poorly written soap-opera story. I disliked very much Sam telling Cas, "We've all lost people, but this is different." Yes, they've lost other people they loved, but this is, you know, DIFFERENT! This is a bigger deal! It's more important, more intense -- it's more heartbreaking!

Except, you know, it's not. Not in my opinion. And just having someone in the story assert this as a fact, rather than the writers having to do the actual work of convincing us, does not make it true.

Because of the time of year, I was thinking about the episode "A Very Supernatural Christmas", and I was struck by a certain similarity to this episode. In both episodes, a character has only a short time to live, and wants to enjoy doing something simple for the last time. Kind of a soap-opera plot, I guess. But unlike Jack's story, Dean's desire to celebrate Christmas one more time really did break my heart.

For one thing, it was really significant why Dean was going to die; it was an important part of the story they were telling us about Dean and Sam. And the flashbacks to their childhood mattered as well. It mattered why Dean wanted to celebrate Christmas with Sam in his last year, and it mattered why Sam first resisted, and then in the end gave Dean his wish. It wasn't just sentimentality; it was about who they were as characters and how they had come to this point in their lives. Yes, it is nice that Jack wanted to go fishing with Dean, and told him he'd had a good life (although his saying that kind of came out of nowhere for me.) But there is no way that scene can have the same kind of emotional resonance for me.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Bergamot

[Pondlass1]

5 hours ago, Bergamot said:

And just having someone in the story assert this as a fact, rather than the writers having to do the actual work of convincing us, does not make it true.

Good post Bergamot.

This ^^ is a huge problem with the batch of writers we have now.  We're supposed to assume all the important conversations take place off screen.  It's lazy lazy writing.  When they do get together to talk they waffle about nothing.  It's all so weird now.  How are we supposed to invest in characters or story?  Whether Jack lives dies or whatever might be their priority but I'd suggest the majority of viewers could not care less.  And as other have pointed out - if he dies he'll not stay dead.  Death means nothing now.   Other than Dean contracting Jack's consumption, I really don't care.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Pondlass1

[juppschmitz]

10 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Because of the time of year, I was thinking about the episode "A Very Supernatural Christmas", and I was struck by a certain similarity to this episode. In both episodes, a character has only a short time to live, and wants to enjoy doing something simple for the last time. Kind of a soap-opera plot, I guess. But unlike Jack's story, Dean's desire to celebrate Christmas one more time really did break my heart.

For one thing, it was really significant why Dean was going to die; it was an important part of the story they were telling us about Dean and Sam. And the flashbacks to their childhood mattered as well. It mattered why Dean wanted to celebrate Christmas with Sam in his last year, and it mattered why Sam first resisted, and then in the end gave Dean his wish. It wasn't just sentimentality; it was about who they were as characters and how they had come to this point in their lives.

This is so so true, and makes me so so sad for what the show has lost.

[tennisgurl]

15 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Because of the time of year, I was thinking about the episode "A Very Supernatural Christmas", and I was struck by a certain similarity to this episode. In both episodes, a character has only a short time to live, and wants to enjoy doing something simple for the last time. Kind of a soap-opera plot, I guess. But unlike Jack's story, Dean's desire to celebrate Christmas one more time really did break my heart.

That was such a good episode, I was just thinking about it recently too actually, as I usually watch it around Christmas time (right in-between Frosty and Ralphie Parker, I find time for human eating pagan gods) and it reminds me how freaking good this show used to be. It really was very similar to this one, except that one felt very natural, and in tune with the characters. It wasn't sappy or melodramatic (no scenes that seemed lifted straight out of Dr. Sexy) and that just made Sam and Deans heartbreak even more of a tearjerker. I cried more over their bittersweet Christmas in a cheap motel over porn and take out than I did over any of the dramatic declarations and Victorian novel coughing fits in this episode. I dont dislike Jack or anything, I normally like him just fine, but he has so much built up with him (first as the son of Satan, and now as this surrogate son to My Three Dads) that he cant possibly live up to the hype, and while we were shown how sad and desperate the situation was in AVSC, we get told how sad and desperate things are here. It just feels like the writers yelling at the audience "Cry! You cry at the sad thing!" instead of just letting it happen organically due to the story and characters. 

[mertensia]

Looking back at Dean and Jack fishing, what's interesting is that Jack actually listened and paid attention to Dean. He sussed out Dean's best memory of Dean and John-or at least one of them - and decided that this was a memory he wanted for himself...and Dean.

People listening to Dean and Dean's personal (not monster fighting plans) is a rare experience for Dean.

[The Companion]

On 11/29/2018 at 8:19 PM, ahrtee said:

Hmmm...after 8 minutes in to the episode, I came here to say how *very little* interest I have in the Nick/Lucifer story, and my computer shut itself down in mid-sentence.  Luci, is that you?

Heh. I could not care less about Nick/Lucifer. It took me like 4 days to get through the episode because I was so disengaged.

On 11/29/2018 at 9:05 PM, ZennyKenny said:

 

- Yay Roweena! Sorry not sorry, she's one of my favorite characters. ^__^

 

She is fantastic, even if they didn't give her much to work with here.

On 11/30/2018 at 8:59 AM, catrox14 said:

 

Fuck you, show, for bringing back Lucifer, but we alI knew it would happen. I'm sick of Mark Pellegrino chewing the scenery.

The score was terrible in this episode. It was overwrought, irritating, and treacly. It felt nothing like Supernatural.

 

 

 

Yes to both of there things. I would rather have Metatron back, and that is saying a lot.

And the entire Jack storyline is ao overwrought and soap opera-y. 

 

On 11/30/2018 at 12:41 PM, Commando Cody said:

I thought it was weird that Jack was all hooked up to stuff - like stuff to help him breathe - in the hospital. He was falling down. When he gets back to the bunker, he can stand on his own.  Jack's whole episode, for me, was how is he walking around like normal right now?  For the record I like Jack. 

 

I sorta like Jack too, but this storyline is so terrible. The deathbed illness that comes and goes? He is coughing up blood and then he is working a case and running around and then he is in organ failure and then he is out fishing. What? 

Honestly? This episode was fairly unwatchable. I hate Nick/Lucifer and I hate the overwroght ridiculous drama. There were moments where Sam, Dean and Cas really sold the hell out of it and it was still awful to watch.

I also want to point out the ridiculous hypocrisy of killing an innocent man because he has blood on his hands but being A-OK with the blood on your own. And yes, I realize it was more about him enjoying killing but stiiiill. 

I really need the season to get back to the non-storyline episodes before I do permanent damage to my eyes from rolling them.