Elizabeth Webber: Forever The Manipulative Miss Or Adorable Angel?

[Bringonthedrama]

Has anybody really said Liz was Lucky's victim though?

No; the closest I can recall was Nikolas defending Liz to GV's Lucky when he was being awful. I recall him saying something like "I wouldn't judge her too harshly; she was still looking out for you after everybody else had given up." Liz has had a line here or there (prior to the Jake pregnancy drama) about Cam not having a stable home life with two parents because of Lucky's addiction. 

[katie9918]

No; the closest I can recall was Nikolas defending Liz to GV's Lucky when he was being awful. I recall him saying something like "I wouldn't judge her too harshly; she was still looking out for you after everybody else had given up." Liz has had a line here or there (prior to the Jake pregnancy drama) about Cam not having a stable home life with two parents because of Lucky's addiction.

Which was BS, because Liz was back to swooning over Jason before Lucky was even out of the hospital.

Edited December 28, 2014 by katie9918

[WendyCR72]

Liz has had a line here or there (prior to the Jake pregnancy drama) about Cam not having a stable home life with two parents because of Lucky's addiction.

 

Amazing how Cam's lack of a stable home life is all at Lucky's feet. Holy lack of self awareness, Liz!

[Lillybee]

My problems with Liz are many. It started with Niz, when she was telling Robin that the sex with Nik was the best ever. I remember that Nik wanted to do the right thing and leave PC but Liz sent Lucky to stop him on his PP.

 

My biggest issue with Liz is when  Siobhan (Lucky's wife) was in GH for surgery and Liz administered the wrong drug and made Siobhan comatose and it was written off because Liz was still grieving the death of Jake. I always thought that it got worse after AZ smothered Siobhan and Liz didn't notice that her monitors were turned off and then when she froze when Shibhan was coding and did nothing.

 

I really can't blame Lucky for running off to Africa.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Lillybee

[LeftPhalange]

Liz should have drowned when Lisa threw her off that boat.

[Ambrosefolly]

I'm glad she didn't.

[Bringonthedrama]

I remember thinking "Go Liz!" when Lisa was being smug about trying to come between Robin and Patrick (I think involving Emma in it, too) and Elizabeth made it clear she supported Robin and Patrick's love and was their friend. She was disgusted that Lisa was trying to make Robin out to be some kind of boring loser. Also, this scene below is why the current Elizabeth and Ric are a couple again doesn't work for me. This is where they stood when Ric left Port Charles. Then in Spring 2014, Ric was back, wanted another chance and wanted her to forget Nik, Elizabeth thought maybe but had NOT said "I love you"", and then Julian set him up and he went into witness protection. 

 

Elizabeth and Ric's confrontation

[Bringonthedrama]

Which was BS, because Liz was back to swooning over Jason before Lucky was even out of the hospital.

I came across the Nikolas and Lucky scene I was referring to: Post Jason's trial scenes

 

I remember agreeing with Nikolas.  I didn't like that scene because Lucky's attitude seems to be "How dare Elizabeth have sex with Jason! Yes, I was addicted to pills and having an affair with Maxie...but...but...that's all beside the point! Elizabeth is supposed to be faithful to me no matter what!"

[Cobalt Stargazer]

she barely shrugged before moving on to Ric (although not before insinuating herself into Nik's attempt to get over her perfect ass). And then moved back in on Nik for five seconds before zeroing in on Jake and basically behaving to him the same way original recipe Sabrina behaved towards Patrick (stalkerish)

 

This. Liz is always inserting herself into situations which, by all logic, she should want no part of. She couldn't wait to run to Britt and gloat abut how she knew the secret about Ben and how Nik was going to dump her for it. She didn't go to Lulu and Dante, she rowed herself over to Wyndemere and bragged about how she knew the truth, as if she isn't the last person who needs to be talking about keeping a baby secret. She insinuated herself into Robin and Patrick's marriage, and I remember being paranoid that the writers would go there, since shitting on Robin is always the order of the day, so why not use Liz to do it? Now she's become Super Stalker with Jakeson, even though she knows nothing about him. Why exactly would she want some random asshole ('cause, y'know, he's Jasonn) stranger to move in with her and her kids if she wants a stable environment for Cam and What's-His-Name?

 

I remember agreeing with Nikolas.  I didn't like that scene because Lucky's attitude seems to be "How dare Elizabeth have sex with Jason! Yes, I was addicted to pills and having an affair with Maxie...but...but...that's all beside the point! Elizabeth is supposed to be faithful to me no matter what!"

 

Although it does tickle me to think that Liz used the Borg to get revenge for Lucky's affair with Maxie and the pill addiction, since anybody treating the (Un)Holy Hitman like a convenience and then discarding him would be awesome, that's not how it played out on screen. Instead, it was all this stuff about their emotional connection and how much she cared about him and how she was willing to get Lucky shit-canned because she shredded police files for Jason. A revenge screw is one thing, but that isn't what happened. If Jason hadn't "nobly" decided that his life was too dangerous for Liz and Jake, she'd have stayed with him. And then there's Nikolas, and the less said about that, the better, as I'm trying to have lunch.

[KerleyQ]

I'm confused as to how one "stalks" someone who seems to enjoy spending time with them and who seeks them out to spend time with them.  If Liz is stalking Jason, I'm stalking a whole bunch of friends and family. 

[formerlyfreedom]

It does seem to be getting a little bit tense in here. Let's please remember that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and there is no right or wrong way to love or hate any character, including Elizabeth. Please continue to be civil and respectful to your fellow posters.

 

Thank you!

[loveigniting]

Elizabeth is hypocritical, self-righteous, fickle, indecisive, prone to fits of put-upon martyrdom as well as being a stealth bitch. And, I love her completely. She's so perfectly a soap character. She pays and the narrative makes her pay - men bring up her sexual history years later, people who weren't even a gleam in the writers' eye when shit went down slutshame her. Even when people on the show put her on a pedestal, the narrative does not forget her past. Also, her character assassinations and underwriting by the narrative and the way she's been slutshamed by the fandom over the years has only made me love her more out of spite. Heh. 

 

Liz's faults are hers and her mistakes are hers but whatever dudes do around her or for her or because of her are on them. Lucky left- he had agency and choice and he left his kids because of their mother. That shit will never fly with me (I give the character a bit of a break because of the fact that the actor chose to leave). Otherwise, her pussy must be just that magic or that dentata enough to destroy and figuratively castrate these poor widdle men and make them just do things like they have no free will or agency of their own. Man. Must be hard for the dudes. 

 

I have no pairing I really enjoy and can invest in with Liz. Though I enjoyed the LiRic scenes recently because of their chem, the feelings on Liz's side came out of nowhere and I still find the pairing hella problematic due to his treatment of her during their marriage. Jakeson sucks because he's Jason and he should have stayed dead and Billy Miller should've played a new character.

 

I hate how Liz's relationships have been written these past few years. Under RC, she's been involved in more than 5 triangles under his writing and the outcomes of all of those have been abortively frustrating. At this point, I can't even fully lay the blame at Liz's fickleness in the narrative because it's a pattern that the writers have repeated with Liz over and over without actually giving her a real romance. Within the narrative, Liz hasn't been allowed to grow in terms of her relationship patterns and it is frustrating to watch because I have no idea what they're going to do with her rather than use her as a placeholder for some dude when he comes on canvas.

 

As for the thread title. Liz is both, IMO, and that's primarily due to performativity. She's a stealth bitch - the Lizzie Webber that arrived to town angry and lashing out hasn't wholly disappeared and no amount of gross Redemption By Rape the show tried to pull changes that (I know Liz was already changing by the time the rape happened but the rape was used as a push towards good girl alignment and making her sympathetic to audiences). I always found the narrative layers placed on Liz interesting - she supposedly evolved into this sweet angel type heroine after the rape but it always felt performative to me, partly due to the trauma, partly due to falling in love, and partly to societal expectations placed on how she was viewed after the rape. She was never really a Laura or a Robin but she was almost uncomfortably slotted into those roles in those early years after the rape. It's like Liz tries to be 'good' to perform for all the reasons I mentioned above but she's not really as sweet or good as she probably wishes she is. Personally, I would have loved them to subvert expectations and have Liz be an anti-heroine after the rape but sighhh coulda woulda shoulda.

 

Interestingly, it's Carly that pointed this out more than once although, heh, Carly took a far more cynical look to Liz and saw her as coldly calculating, which I don't. I don't entirely agree with Carly's assessment, but I do think that Lizzie exists underneath Liz's skin, subconsciously or not, and that's why Liz is more akin to a low-key bad girl in good girl's clothing. Mind, I don't think there's anything such as bad/good girl paradigms and I think those paradigms are problematic as it boxes female characters into arbitrary lines of 'good' and 'right' without allowing them the chance to grow and be who they always were from the start. Also, if it's someone who's viewed as a 'good' girl, they can never stay on that pedestal too long and if they fall off, they have handed people the right to shame them...which happened to Liz. So, yeah, the paradigms suck but they exist and Liz's character plays into it both aspects of it. IDK this is just my reading of the character.

 

I had more about Liz's slutshaming in the narrative post-Niz and how that kind of tore down the good girl image that was maintained in her community - and how it's sad that it took a sexual affair that many had similarly committed to do that than actual crimes - but I wrote a lot already. 

 

God, I wish she had an actual story over an inevitable triangle.

Edited December 29, 2014 by loveigniting

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Interestingly, it's Carly that pointed this out more than once although, heh, Carly took a far more cynical look to Liz and saw her as coldly calculating, which I don't. I don't entirely agree with Carly's assessment, but I do think that Lizzie exists underneath Liz's skin, subconsciously or not, and that's why Liz is more akin to a low-key bad girl in good girl's clothing.

 

This is interesting, loveigniting, and back on TWOP I wrote a long post on a similar thing. Liz isn't as toxic as Carly, and unlike Carly she's never deliberately set out to destroy anyone's life. But there are parallels there, IMO, and I do think that she believes - or wishes - that she was a better person than she actually is. She justifies her hurtful behavior and actions by using the excuse that it's 'for So And So's own good', like when she didn't tell Lucky that Jake wasn't his son on the grounds that he'd go back to drugs. Just for kicks, let's even say that she was right, as addiction is a disease and something that has to be fought  against. I agree that Lucky's actions are on him, but Liz  also managed his perceptions because she didn't want him to think she was 'bad', which has nothing to do with whether or not he would have picked up one of those pills that was lying underneath the couch and taken it.

 

It's difficult to discuss Liz without bringing up various men, and it's gotten exponentially worse since Ron took over. OTOH, it was Guza who gave her the 'justification' for being intimate with Jason - Lucky's addiction, him banging Maxie in their marital bed. It was most likely to keep Jason pure than any concern for Liz as a character, but conversely there were/are those among the viewers who said she was completely justified because Lucky was a sleaze and a weakling who cheated first. I'm not going to argue against that, both because it's a waste of time and because I can see the logic in bucking against terrible, illogical writing. But Guza's insistence that Jason should always remain blameless did IMO keep Liz pure by proxy in some ways. Had Lucky not become hooked on pills, thus bringing Maxie into the equation as his pusher, and had Sam not had sex with her stepfather on her mother's living room floor, Jason and Liz wouldn't ostensibly be the wounded parties in that whole situation.

 

About Jakeson - we, as viewers, know that he's Jason, but Liz doesn't know that. So while they might very well enjoy spending time together and often seek each other out, it just smacks of the equally annoying stuff about McBain and Sam's 'connection', and in no way should Liz invite the man into the home where her small children live because she doesn't know him, not unless she has some as yet undiscovered psychic ability and can see past his amnesia*. It is terrible writing? Sure. But I can also see how it comes off as stalking, because wherever 'Jake' is, Liz is usually only a couple of steps behind him. If the situation was reversed and he was following her around everywhere, it would be creepy. YMMV.

 

*In no way is that intended to be a serious suggestion, so if you're reading this, Ron, get the idea out of your head. Now.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[KerleyQ]

*In no way is that intended to be a serious suggestion, so if you're reading this, Ron, get the idea out of your head. Now.

 

 

I feel like we're now just biding our time until Olivia encounters him and sees a stone, out in the cold snow.  "Why do I keep seeing a cold stone?" 

[HipOldBat]

Came here when it was suggested another part of the forum was off-topic when discussing Liz.  Reading all the history of that character is interesting.

 

I came back to watching GH from a very long time away from it, and so I don't have any 'history' regarding the Liz character.  So, take what I write as someone who is new to that character.

 

I wish the writers would have her grow a bit, instead of always linking her storyline to men.  She is, after all, Steve Hardy's granddaughter, and I expect more from someone like that.  The writers have had this character do so many destructive things so she can be with a man, that now anything the character does is considered "desperate", "interfering" and so on - no matter how innocent or nice the character's actions were.

 

Case in point - her relationship now with Jason/Jake.  I don't think she's done anything most friends wouldn't do regarding him, except I was furious with the writers when they had her toss him over for Ric at Christmastime.  Now, since he's had brain surgery, she's just trying to protect him and keep him well.  And he doesn't seem to mind that.  There was some sort of a beginning of a relationship between them, where Jason asks her if he still has a chance with her, and I think she ought to either give him a chance and leave Ric alone forever (I really cannot stand that character), or be Jason's friend.

 

But all this is seen in a negative light, due to the character's odious past.  Other characters get rehabilitated, why not Liz?  Why not "grow" the character, instead of this endless recycling of men in and out of her life?

 

Since St. Robin isn't around, and only pops in now and again, it seems there is a vacuum for a "good" female character - why not Liz?

 

She's a Hardy.  Have her grow up and act like one. 

[ulkis]

I mean, I think Liz is a good person for the most part, she's just fickle when it comes to men. And unfortunately, that is not going to change, since like jsbt said in the other thread, the only storyline Carlivati actually wants to put her in is a Lucky-Nikolas triangle.

[HipOldBat]

I mean, I think Liz is a good person for the most part, she's just fickle when it comes to men. And unfortunately, that is not going to change, since like jsbt said in the other thread, the only storyline Carlivati actually wants to put her in is a Lucky-Nikolas triangle.

 

Yeah, and that's the pity.  They could do so much more with that character if they wanted to.

[HeatLifer]

I just feel like Liz never gets the excuse the other characters do. And by excuse, I mean, "X is acting like this because it suits the plot and will create more drama." Liz is just hated for whatever as if every single thing she does is absolutely "in character." No, sometimes it's not.

And I also don't think her going from dude to dude is any different from every other character falling in love with numerous characters.

Edited March 4, 2015 by HeatLifer

[KerleyQ]

A large part of it is because the show loves pitting the character against other fan bases, especially Sam's.  Liz is the worst thing ever because she dared to have sex with Sam's property. 

 

The show knows that RH can act, can generate chemistry with just about anyone, and has a loyal fan base who won't turn on her no matter what they do to the character.  So they use that to prop up other characters and pairings.  

[HeatLifer]

Oh, the Liz hate gets to extreme levels if Jason's involved, for sure. Actually, I'd say about 97% of the reason Liz is hated is because people don't want her with Jase.

Edited March 4, 2015 by HeatLifer

[ulkis]

I just feel like Liz never gets the excuse the other characters do. And by excuse, I mean, "X is acting like this because it suits the plot and will create more drama." Liz is just hated for whatever as if every single thing she does is absolutely "in character." No, sometimes it's not.

 

I think she gets a lot of flack but I've seen people say she's acting out of character. Back when she hid that Danny was actually

Sam's child in fall 2012 I saw even a lot of her non-fans say it was out of character.

 

And I also don't think her going from dude to dude is any different from every other character falling in love with numerous characters.

 

 

Well . . . I can see how it is because Liz went back and forth deciding whether she wanted to be with Nik or not the year before last like 4 times. I don't think she sleeps with more people but I can see how she comes across as fickle. It's not the amount of lovers she has, it's how she can't decide. Carly and Sonny have had a lot of lovers under Ron but they usually move on once they're done (except in the case of Sonny and Connie/Kate, where he kept going back and forth between the altars.)

[HeatLifer]

I guess I just feel that just because a character "moves on" for X amount of time, it doesn't make it better. Just as a recent example, Sam went from being in love with Silas, to falling for Patrick, and now, once again, is all about Jake/Jason (and she doesn't know he's even alive yet). Just because she didn't go back and forth deciding (soon, this will happen, though) doesn't mean that the character isn't going back and forth.

Edited March 4, 2015 by HeatLifer

[KerleyQ]

I definitely don't think Carly is someone who "moves on" either.  I mean, she was still going back to ride Sonny's dick when she was with Jax and Franco.  And she's considered Sonny and Jason her property for decades.  When it comes to being shitty about her relationships with men, Liz can't hold a candle to Cujo's grossness. 

[HipOldBat]

I just feel like Liz never gets the excuse the other characters do. And by excuse, I mean, "X is acting like this because it suits the plot and will create more drama." Liz is just hated for whatever as if every single thing she does is absolutely "in character." No, sometimes it's not.

And I also don't think her going from dude to dude is any different from every other character falling in love with numerous characters.

 

I totally agree.

 

It's almost as if they write her as an afterthought: "Oh Liz is getting close to Jason. I know! Let's have Ric come back so she can run to him.  And if that doesn't work then maybe she can run after Nikolas."

 

Maybe Liz is just the recipient of some of the writers' dislike of women, particularly career women.  Gotta keep them knocked back a bit, know what I mean?

[ulkis]

I guess I just feel that just because a character "moves on" for X amount of time, it doesn't make it better. Just as a recent example, Sam went from being in love with Silas, to falling for Patrick, and now, once again, is all about Jake/Jason (and she doesn't know he's even alive yet). Just because she didn't go back and forth deciding (soon, this will happen, though) doesn't mean that the character isn't going back and forth.

 

I think it still makes a character come across as flighty when they move through a succession of partners, but I think it's different from going to one person and saying "I want to be with you/yes I do/no I don't."

 

Sam has kept her relationship with Patrick very casual, imo I don't think it makes her look fickle or flighty. Patrick, on the other hand . . . 

I definitely don't think Carly is someone who "moves on" either.  I mean, she was still going back to ride Sonny's dick when she was with Jax and Franco.  And she's considered Sonny and Jason her property for decades.  When it comes to being shitty about her relationships with men, Liz can't hold a candle to Cujo's grossness. 

 

Oh, I don't disagree, but I think Carly's grossness is a whole other kind from Liz's back-and-forthness. (which I don't actually think is "gross", per se.)

Maybe Liz is just the recipient of some of the writers' dislike of women, particularly career women.  Gotta keep them knocked back a bit, know what I mean?

 

I don't think so. I think they just treat her like an afterthought. And like KerleyQ said, they know they can stick her anywhere and she will most likely garner up some fans.

[KerleyQ]

I've said before that I think Lucky's grotesque line about wondering where the girl was he found raped in the snow was pretty much an indication of how this show sees Liz.  That was, to them, the last time she was worthy.  And even that story line wasn't about her as much as it was about Lucky, Luke, and Laura. 

[ulkis]

I think Garin Wolf actually was gearing up to give her an actual story. Matt/Liz was one of the few things he did that I liked.

[HeatLifer]

I think it still makes a character come across as flighty when they move through a succession of partners, but I think it's different from going to one person and saying "I want to be with you/yes I do/no I don't."

Sam has kept her relationship with Patrick very casual, imo I don't think it makes her look fickle or flighty. Patrick, on the other hand . . .

Sam is sleeping with a man whose ex-wife sacrificed her own life to save Jason. On top of that, she did it for Sam and her son. Now exchange "Sam" for "Liz" and I can only imagine the reaction.

But I honestly don't mean to discuss other characters in this thread. I just feel like there's a double standard when it comes to Liz. I always have. And she's not even my fave! But I see it.

[HipOldBat]

Garin Wolf was a past writer for GH?  And who was Matt?

[ulkis]

Garin Wolf was a past writer for GH?  And who was Matt?

 

Yes, he was a breakdown writer for a long time, and then he became headwriter from around July 2011-December 2011, between Guza and Ron Carlivati. Matt was Patrick's half-brother, who was a doctor at the hospital as well. He was barely seen for three and a half years until the aforesaid Wolf decided to write for him. So he got written for for a couple of months, Carlivati came along, and then he left the show not long after. He killed Patrick's crazy ex-girlfriend Lisa Niles in self-defense and went to prison.

[HipOldBat]

Sam is sleeping with a man whose ex-wife sacrificed her own life to save Jason. On top of that, she did it for Sam and her son. Now exchange "Sam" for "Liz" and I can only imagine the reaction.

But I honestly don't mean to discuss other characters in this thread. I just feel like there's a double standard when it comes to Liz. I always have. And she's not even my fave! But I see it.

 

I think there is a different reaction to Liz in terms of hatred for the character by the fans, than for some other characters.  I mean, I have seen fans bash Sam but usually that's based on either how she talks (can't blame them there, I used to be a d&a therapist and she talks like she's on narcotics, it's really off-putting to me), or how she looks (former Playboy model and Baywatch actress).  It doesn't ever seem to be how her character acts.

 

Of couse, none of the actors/actresses on GH can do anything different than what is written for them, I get that.  But there does seem to be a higher level of vitriol towards Liz.  Maybe that contributes to the writers not wanting to change or grow her character, do you think?  I mean, if they think she has very few fans, why change anything?  I know, I read that and I kinda think it makes no sense - forgive me, I am overthinking Ron and his henchmen.

Yes, he was a breakdown writer for a long time, and then he became headwriter from around July 2011-December 2011, between Guza and Ron Carlivati. Matt was Patrick's half-brother, who was a doctor at the hospital as well. He was barely seen for three and a half years until the aforesaid Wolf decided to write for him. So he got written for for a couple of months, Carlivati came along, and then he left the show not long after. He killed Patrick's crazy ex-girlfriend Lisa Niles in self-defense and went to prison.

 

Thanks for the explanation.

 

Patrick's half-brother....that would have a lot of potential storylines, I would think.  Grrrr, Ron ruins everything!

[WendyCR72]

Sam is sleeping with a man whose ex-wife sacrificed her own life to save Jason. On top of that, she did it for Sam and her son. Now exchange "Sam" for "Liz" and I can only imagine the reaction.

But I honestly don't mean to discuss other characters in this thread. I just feel like there's a double standard when it comes to Liz. I always have. And she's not even my fave! But I see it.

 

But the difference for me is, and others may not see it as so, sure other characters have lots of love interests, but I don't see them having one while trying to keep option B on reserve and then daring to get all bitch-faced if said option wants a life not on Liz's string.

 

Add in that it isn't JUST about Liz never being satisfied than it is her two-faced attitude towards women, especially women who dare to want a man that Liz has stamped as her property even as she plays "come to me, keep away!" Sometimes, a man doesn't even have to be at the crux. She was all too happy to lecture Robin during her PPD yet wanting Patrick to "smile", even though she was supposed to be friends with both. I never saw Robin lecture Liz about PRETENDING to be crazy when she got knocked up and was having her annual WTD crisis.

 

Basically, to me, Liz acts all holier than thou when she is just as messed up as everyone else. But she hides behind self righteousness and a tarnished halo but calls others out on the same behavior.

 

That's a huge difference to me. So, no, I don't like Liz. I doubt I ever will.

 

 

Yes, he was a breakdown writer for a long time, and then he became headwriter from around July 2011-December 2011, between Guza and Ron Carlivati. Matt was Patrick's half-brother, who was a doctor at the hospital as well. He was barely seen for three and a half years until the aforesaid Wolf decided to write for him. So he got written for for a couple of months, Carlivati came along, and then he left the show not long after. He killed Patrick's crazy ex-girlfriend Lisa Niles in self-defense and went to prison.

 

Matt was Patrick's fellow doc half-brother whom Noah basically ditched. He was played by Jason Cook, who played Bo and Hope's grown son, Shawn Douglas, for a time on Days of Our Lives. Matt went to jail for a justified killing of Patrick's looney old college flame, Dr. Lisa Niles (with whom Bob Guza wrote a Fatal Attraction story with, having Patrick bang once when still married to Robin), who was trying to kill both Robin and Patrick. Yet everyone else who are killers? Still free. Ridiculous.

 

To connect it to here. He had a brief flirtation with Liz.

[sometimesfan]

Oh, the Liz hate gets to extreme levels if Jason's involved, for sure. Actually, I'd say about 97% of the reason Liz is hated is because people don't want her with Jase.

 

Seriously...I love Liz, and I loved Liason the first go round, but she moved on from him. The show should have left it that way. No way do I want her back with Jakeson.

I guess I just feel that just because a character "moves on" for X amount of time, it doesn't make it better. Just as a recent example, Sam went from being in love with Silas, to falling for Patrick, and now, once again, is all about Jake/Jason (and she doesn't know he's even alive yet). Just because she didn't go back and forth deciding (soon, this will happen, though) doesn't mean that the character isn't going back and forth.

 

Don't forget about good old what's his name, the detective. ;)

[HeatLifer]

but I don't see them having one while trying to keep option B on reserve and then daring to get all bitch-faced if said option wants a life not on Liz's string.

You're right, that's not appealing. But I also don't think "Date X, Dump X, Forget about X and fall for Y, Remember X, Fall For X again, Forget about Y" is appealing either.

[WendyCR72]

You're right, that's not appealing. But I also don't think "Date X, Dump X, Forget about X and fall for Y, Remember X, Fall For X again, Forget about Y" is appealing either.

 

No argument there. But...what you typed can and has also applied to Liz at some point, hence her being a polarizing character.

[HeatLifer]

No argument there. But...what you typed can and has also applied to Liz at some point, hence her being a polarizing character.

Of course. Liz does that. But so does everyone else. But it's never a big deal unless it's Liz.

[WendyCR72]

Of course. Liz does that. But so does everyone else. But it's never a big deal unless it's Liz.

 

Well, like I said, Liz has been hypocritical while passing judgment, so I can see why that would make people angry with her and direct more hate her way.

 

I mean, even now. She can't woman up and break it off with Ric. He has to confront her, and she doesn't commit one way or the other. So other characters have to look like the mustache twirlers for daring to call her out. She is love with Ric until she's in love with Nik until she's in love with Jakeson until she's in love with Lucky, and repeat cycle. It's exhausting, and it IS a pattern that is hers.

[HeatLifer]

Liz's personality and character as a whole is another discussion entirely and I'm not that passionate about her in that way to discuss. Lol. But we'll have to agree to disagree on her relationship probs. She has problems, for sure. But IMO, every character has the same fickleness issue. Actually, other characters might be worse because they actually forget they were romantically involved with X until they're supposed to remember again and apparently that's true love.

[KerleyQ]

I think Garin Wolf actually was gearing up to give her an actual story. Matt/Liz was one of the few things he did that I liked.

 

I remain bitter that they ruined the Liz/Matt potential.  They had a nice spark, and it wasn't messy or tied up in Liz's past.  And Matt was a good character who got trashed for...reasons.  Getting thrown in jail for killing someone who was actively trying to kill his brother and sister-in-law.  Meanwhile, Jason and Sonny kill all willy-nilly and nothing. 

[peachmangosteen]

Basically, to me, Liz acts all holier than thou when she is just as messed up as everyone else. But she hides behind self righteousness and a tarnished halo but calls others out on the same behavior.

 

I agree with your whole post and this part in particular. Her smug self-righteousness drives me insane as hell. Especially when she accompanies it with that 'sweet as pie' bullshit or her whiny voice. Flames on the side of my face!

 

But I won't lie, some of my Liz hate is for shallow reasons like I just don't like her face, I hate her voice, and her boobs are way too big for her body.

Edited March 4, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[LeftPhalange]

On the bright side, it's been several years since she's been involved in a who's the daddy situation/paternity lie. Actually, she's probably about due for one. Nik, Ric, and Jakeson better watch out.

[HipOldBat]

Hahaha, peachmangosteen!  I laughed at that last bit you wrote!

 

I will say, though, I wasn't pleased with how Liz went running to Nik about Britt.  I thought she was a bit smug there, and I have to admit I liked Britt (not sure why, but I like both Britt and Dr. O, probably says something depraved about me).   She did take a holier-than-thou attitude, and I don't find that attractive on any character.

 

Other than that, I just wish the writers would make her more of a Hardy.

[peachmangosteen]

Hahaha, peachmangosteen!  I laughed at that last bit you wrote!

 

Glad to provide a laugh!

 

I will say that it is absolutely criminal what they do with Liz. That character deserves much more.

 

Also, I actually have never seen Liz's first story with the rape and I do think if I had I'd probably be much more sympathetic to her.

[HeatLifer]

peach, have you seen Liz/Lucky's love story at all?

[UYI]

I agree with your whole post and this part in particular. Her smug self-righteousness drives me insane as hell. Especially when she accompanies it with that 'sweet as pie' bullshit or her whiny voice. Flames on the side of my face!

 

But I won't lie, some of my Liz hate is for shallow reasons like I just don't like her face, I hate her voice, and her boobs are way too big for her body.

 

The biggest Liz hater I've ever encountered here, reneeebob (where art thou?), claims that her head is too big for her body and has called her the Lawn/Garden Gnome in the past.

 

Personally, my biggest thing is the eyebrows. There have been times where they looked plucked to kingdom come and into some permanent surprise mode. I know they were bushier when she was younger, but if you pluck them too much you're gonna have problems, too.

 

...I'm usually not this shallow, I promise! :P

Edited March 4, 2015 by UYI

[GHScorpiosRule]

FUCK! my 'puter ate my post!

 

Let's start again....high on meds, so apologies in advance if my post doesn't make sense.

 

If anyone wins the war of smug-bitchface, that would go to Cujo. But because Liz's face is "angelic" when she does this, her character gets all the judgments against her of being all holier than thou. Is that right? (Not being snarky, honestly asking). At least Liz has never claimed former lovers/husbands or someone she wanted to be with, but was settling for friendship because she was never going to have sex with him ever again, because he didn't want her and didn't love her that way, despite all her "I love yous" to him, always hoping for a "I love you back" but in a sexual romantic way, then trying to blow it off as 'oh, you're my best friend!' and marked them all as her property, as "hers" and ended with "And I don't share!" to what'shisface--former bartender of Floating Rib, f.k.a. Jake's.

 

That would be the Shebeast, when referring to Jax and Jason, during Brenda's last return.

 

So, in my opinion, Cujo is way WORSE, and I don't judge/blame Liz because every fucking regime, refuses to let her learn from her mistakes and move the fuck on. 

 

And Cujo is just UGLY with her smugness.

 

Man, I need to go watch that clip when Robin hauled off and bitchslapped her back in 2005.

Edited March 5, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[OnceSane]

HipOldBat, Liz actually has a lot of fans, I don't count myself as one of them; but she does have a sizeable fan base.

I've disliked Liz for many years for many of the reasons already listed. And it's not because I'm a Sam fan, my dislike came long before Sam was in the picture.

I tolerated Liz best when with Lucky pre-2006, of course. After that their relationship was just ugh. I still expect TPTB will hook them up for their endgame when this show is cancelled.

[HipOldBat]

HipOldBat, Liz actually has a lot of fans, I don't count myself as one of them; but she does have a sizeable fan base.

 

 

Well, that's good to know.  It's hard to tell, sometimes,especially coming from that other place (as I did) that is full of Sonny fans and Liz haters.

[peachmangosteen]

peach, have you seen Liz/Lucky's love story at all?

I have not. The only thing of Liz/Lucky I've seen is when Lucky was getting pills from Maxie.

Don't get me wrong, GHScorpiosRules, I think Carly is awful, but I still hate Liz most of the time anyway!

[HeatLifer]

Aw, man. If you have time, you should YT some vintage Liz/Lucky, especially because you must see Jonathan Jackson as Lucky. Greg Vaughan was hot, but I could never take him seriously in the role.

Edited March 5, 2015 by HeatLifer