S07.E15: The Big 4-0

[ZoloftBlob]

It seems odd and unnatural that we have not seen Will or Zoey warm to Jen let alone outwardly display affection unless they are asked for kisses...

 

I will throw Jen a bone on this.

 

Not everyone is huggy or touchy. My family is not touchy and we don't hug and we didn't hug as children except on rare occasions and we were not encouraged to physically touch others for affection. Jen isn't very huggy or touchy with *Bill*. She may simply not be physically affectionate.

[jodo]

I too am not a hugger or touchy feely person but around those two, let me at 'em!!  LOL  I know Jen is smaller and incapable of picking them up but they could kiss her arm too.  Well Jen grew up with it as I am sure she was carried around a lot as a child due to her size and surgeries and I have seen both Judy and Dave do hugs and kisses at greetings.  Judy hugged Bill at the birthday dinner when she greeted him.  

Edited June 13, 2014 by jodo

[Everh]

I will throw Jen a bone on this.

 

Not everyone is huggy or touchy. My family is not touchy and we don't hug and we didn't hug as children except on rare occasions and we were not encouraged to physically touch others for affection. Jen isn't very huggy or touchy with *Bill*. She may simply not be physically affectionate.

I go with the bone too, everyone is different.   Yet, you can easily see that Bill is naturally affectionate, bonded deeply with those kids.   I am sure they got asked hundreds of times why Jen holds Zoey away from her. Obviously they didn't answer that particular question during that show.     I would love to know  why. Its so unnatural and strange.    Once again, if this is such an educational show, why not answer?

[MrMattyMatt]

   I am sure they got asked hundreds of times why Jen holds Zoey away from her. Obviously they didn't answer that particular question during that show.     I would love to know  why. Its so unnatural and strange.   

I thought she had done it originally for the benefit of the viewers, but I see she does it all the time.  Since she's a doctor, there must be some medical reason why she does it, either for herself or Zoey. 

 Yet, you can easily see that Bill is naturally affectionate, bonded deeply with those kids. 

Plus he says he wants to become the kid's best friends not only a parent.

[Absolom]

It was Jen's birthday.  They made a great effort to do something they thought Will would like for his birthday.  He wasn't actively miserable although he might prefer the zoo or the park.

[ZoloftBlob]

There's also the unfortunate reality that we don't always get what we want as children. My mom for example? Adored going to the lake, swimming at the lake, hanging out by the lake. Every summer weekend,we were down by the lake.

 

I hated the lake, and I didn't get my way because I was a child and Mom was the adult.

 

My opinion, of course, but having a child doesn't mean you must always sacrifice your own happiness for the child's every whim. If Will doesn't like the beach, and Zoey does, who gets their way? It's important for kids to know other people have likes and dislikes and that we don't always get our way.

Edited June 13, 2014 by ZoloftBlob

[BitterApple]

I don't think it's necessarily a healthy thing to put your child's wants ahead of everything else 100% of the time. I have a friend who does this and her son is a spoiled brat. It's good for Will to learn some days are his special days, while others are for Mom, Dad or Zoey.

[minx]

I'm in the Jen's-birthday-so-she-gets-to-decide camp. First of all, if Will doesn't like the beach he's just going to have to,learn to tolerate it because it's a popular thing to do. The family lives not far from beaches, they have relatives in Florida, etc. There are going to be beach outings. When he's 18 and if he doesn't want to go to the beach, it's his decision. Second, it is Jen's day. She's been through cancer and chemo, give her a break.

Lastly, kids have to learn that they are part of a unit and they have to compromise. I learned this the hard way by trying to accommodate my kids--and then your needs aren't met. I'm going through it as we speak because my daughter wants to get driven here, driven there today (she doesn't drive yet and my husband and son who do drive aren't home). I told her I've got things to do and she can see this particular friend some other day. And that's it. No negotiation. And she accepted it.

auntl--all due respect, any parent who always puts their kids' wishes ahead of their own is headed for a life of misery and will produce an enormously spoiled kid.

Edited June 13, 2014 by minx

[Absolom]

Not to mention it wasn't Jen who planned her birthday weekend.  We're supposed to believe it was Bill and he picked something he knew she liked.  Zoey seemed quite happy with the experience so three out of four family members were quite happy and Will didn't seem to find it horrible.  He got involved in some of the activities.  He didn't seem to like the feel of sand on his feet so he kept his shoes on most of the time. 

[jodo]

Hey as long as you feed Will you can take him anywhere!  With his "ooz" on of course.  In Zoey's bed he kept crying for his "ooz" when Jen took them off because they might be dirty...I still laugh hearing him say it....

[minx]

Absolom--You're right! (palm slapping forehead). It was Bill who planned the day, not Jen. Doh,

I think it was sweet of him to consider what she liked to do, what kind of dress, venue, ring, etc. He's a doll. Now, did TLC make the suggestion that they have a vow renewal? Probably. Did TLC facilitate the arrangements and pay for the whole thing? Undoubtedly. But Bill isn't a doofy Jon Gosselin, who was just along for the free trip. Bill adores Jen and his family and after the cancer and chemo probably was happy to do something special for her 40th. He's the kind of guy who just has to be pointed in a certain direction and he'll run with it. The way he described what kind of a dress he wanted for Jen--IMO that was Bill speaking, not a script. He had given it some thought.

[CousinAmy]

I think Jen's awkwardness when holding the children is due to her physical limitations? I'm not sure how flexible her chest and shoulders are, since she seems to be very stiff, while Bill seems to have more range of motion. 

 

In general, Bill is a more loosey-goosey parent, who doesn't mind letting things go just a bit when he feels it's warranted. Jen is stricter, so her relationship with the children is different - not better or worse, just different. We really don't get to see stuff like who gets them up in the morning, chooses their clothes, plans menus - gives them their baths, etc. All of this daily parent "stuff" that's not glamorous for TV. (Or appropriate, of course.) 

 

I really can't tell how strict Jen is, because we're almost always seeing them in a party situation. Which I guess makes for good TV, but is probably not a real measure of how the household functions. 

 

On a shallow note, in the commercial break they showed Jen in that Tiffany blue one-shouldered dress - it was stunning! I really can't wait to see that! 

[constantknot]

I think the abundance of 'keck' is simply because we're often seeing celebrations and birthdays. I'm pretty sure my husband talks about cake as much as Will, lol. Hmmm, reminds me, we have some birthday cake ice cream in the freezer.... 

 

Will put together a 3 word combination this episode! "I make mess", it was too cute. I clapped a little bit! I think he's definitely making some progress with his speech and language. 

 

Oh man, that lobster! I react the exact same way as Will, they freak me out. Can't imagine it being as big as I am, lol. 

[BitterApple]

I wonder if Will ended up sampling the lobster. When Jen was pulling the meat out of the tail it looked like Will was reaching over to take a piece.

[mbutterfly]

I don't think it's necessarily a healthy thing to put your child's wants ahead of everything else 100% of the time. I have a friend who does this and her son is a spoiled brat. It's good for Will to learn some days are his special days, while others are for Mom, Dad or Zoey.

I think the happiest families are ones that have special days for each. Children learn to respect and be respected. Jen has a degree in marine biology -- she will have a lot to share with her family from her knowledge. They live very near the Gulf so the beach and all things marine would logically be a part of their family life together. 

[minx]

I see Jen and Bill as the ying and the yang, like a lot of couples. Their kids will benefit from the combination. IMO they are very good parents, caring, and it's even more remarkable because they had two toddlers/preschoolers dropped into their lives, in, what 7 or 8 months? They didn't have a baby that they got used to and that they could adjust to and fine-tune their parenting skills. It was Bam! Here's one, and then bam! Here's another. Yes, they did hover over Will a bit when they first got him, but they were brand new parents and were feeling their way. I don't know that I would have done as good a job.

I think it was very good for Will to get Zoey as a sibling so quickly. He's a sweet, generous kid, but he could have gotten spoiled. It's always good for kids to know that it's a big world with a lot of people in it, and you have to get along.

Edited June 14, 2014 by minx

[Honey]

Birthday or not, how many adult women put their likes ahead of their children's?

Will is only 4.  He doesn't know what he likes or doesn't yet.  When I was 4 I hated brussel sprouts, now I could live on them.  When they first brought Will to the beach he was afraid of the sand.  This time, although he didn't take his shoes off, he had fun playing in the sand.  Next time, he may allow Bill and Jen to "bury" him in the sand.

 

Also, Zoey had never been to the beach.  Should she never go to the beach because Will went one time and didn't like it?  No.  That family has 4 members in it.  Not 1!.

 

Did Jen kill your dog in a former life or something?  Lol.

[LazyToaster]

I gotta say I loved the part with Bill and the party planners at the hotel. The whole thing was awesome. He knows her favorite colors and foods and everything. Wow.

Plus just for a minute, let's imagine those same planners helping say someone like the Duggars plan a party? Nope, me either, can't see it. Ha! I love Bill and Jen, warts and all.

[MrMattyMatt]

. He knows her favorite colors and foods and everything. Wow.

 

 

Well it's not like he met her yesterday.  That blue color is all over their house and how could he not know her favorite food?

[Howyougetthegirl91]

I thought the whole episode was pretty sweet. Love Will and Zoey. I agree that Bill knowing her favorites such as color or food isn't a huge surprise. Especially after knowing her over 7 years. Even if Will doesn't love the beach now , he may grow to later. Either way it was Jen's birthday so IMO it's not a big deal for Will to spend some time there.

[Absolom]

One of my salt of the earth friends and I were talking last night and I brought up the beach discussion.  She said would you let the child decide to never eat broccoli based on one taste?  The child should go to the beach regularly to have the opportunity to get used to it. 

 

My youngest screamed like a banshee on the first trip to the beach and clung to me.  Yet, two years later begged to go every weekend.  Kids are like that. 

[jodo]

Well it's not like he met her yesterday.  That blue color is all over their house and how could he not know her favorite food?

Bang on!!!  Can this guy breathe way way up there???!!!??

[LegalParrot81]

Jen did say that although this was Zoey's first trip to the beach, Will had been there quite a few times.  We only saw his first beach experience, not the ones that followed.  While he still didn't care to have the sand on his feet, he was in there playing in the sand and not seeming to mind it at all.

 

After 8 years together, I'd be more surprised if Bill didn't know her favorite color and foods.  LOL

Edited June 14, 2014 by LegalParrot81

[LazyToaster]

Ok, busted for being impressed over Bill knowing what Jen likes. LOL, clearly my expectations aren't high enough. Don't care though, I still liked the whole planning thing.

[Kohola3]

Well it's not like he met her yesterday.  That blue color is all over their house and how could he not know her favorite food?

 

I think it's more that he cared to plan the event around those rather than that he just knew that information. I know several guys who "know" things but don't make an effort in incorporating them into a special occasion.  They'd turn the party over to some planner and say "do whatever".

[mbutterfly]

Well it's not like he met her yesterday.  That blue color is all over their house and how could he not know her favorite food?

lol, not to be sexist about this, MrMattyMatt, but you might be surprised at what husbands may not know about favorites. 

Edited June 14, 2014 by mbutterfly

[MrMattyMatt]

lol, not to be sexist about this, MrMattyMatt, but you might be surprised at what husbands may not know about favorites. 

I know totally what you mean, some sposes are not as savvy as Bill. It's just pretty obvious that since he is such an attentive and loving husband, I was not surprised that he knew her farovite color and favorite food.  To me that stuff you learn while dating. 

[minx]

I'll be married 36 years on June 24th. If you asked my husband what my favorite color is, he probably would say "Ummmm...." He might know what my favorite foods are.

[demarti]

I thought she had done it originally for the benefit of the viewers, but I see she does it all the time.  Since she's a doctor, there must be some medical reason why she does it, either for herself or Zoey. 

Plus he says he wants to become the kid's best friends not only a parent.

I assumed she did it because of the port in her chest. It would be too easy for Zoey to pull on it if she was facing her and I'm sure uncomfortable for Jen if she was holding her that way.

[Everh]

I assumed she did it because of the port in her chest. It would be too easy for Zoey to pull on it if she was facing her and I'm sure uncomfortable for Jen if she was holding her that way.

Except she did it before she had the port which was the first day she was adopted and screaming. Jen held her away from her, except one time she held her against her in the hotel bedroom.

[LegalParrot81]

 

Except she did it before she had the port which was the first day she was adopted and screaming. Jen held her away from her, except one time she held her against her in the hotel bedroom.

 

I have to disagree here, because we saw Jen holding her close to her in the living area of their suite when she was trying to get her to eat, on the couch after her nap, the next morning before Bill took Zoey to the doctor.  Jen had her close to her multiple times.  

[Everh]

I have to disagree here, because we saw Jen holding her close to her in the living area of their suite when she was trying to get her to eat, on the couch after her nap, the next morning before Bill took Zoey to the doctor.  Jen had her close to her multiple times.  

Yep, that is correct. Thanks for the refresher.      :)

[BitterApple]

Yeah, if you were to ask Mr. Bitter Apple what my favorite foods were there'd be a long pause followed by a random (and likely incorrect) guess. I'll give Bill some props for paying attention to detail.

[CPP83]

I call Jen's method of carrying Zoey or lifting Will the "hoist and heave" maneuver, heh. I think, as others have mentioned, it has a lot to do with physical limitations and her port for the time being.

 

Zoey has gotten fairly big pretty quick, she's put on some much needed weight, and lord knows Will is solid as well, not that that's a bad thing, but Jen is just 3'2 and is proportionately small and sized as such so I think she carries the kids the only way she really can at the moment, and soon they're going to be too big for her to do that even, especially Will as he'll soon be her size before you know it.

 

I thought Will seemed fine at the beach, he appeared intrigued with the kite flying and didn't mind getting down and making shapes in the sand with everyone. Of course they did pack a beach lunch so I am sure that may have helped his mood a little, heh, but comparing the Will who shrieked and screamed whenever he stepped on sand to the one who clapped his hands together and proudly proclaimed "I make mess!", to me he's done very well adapting to the beach and what it offers.

 

Watching the episode again, I just can't get over how observant Zoey is, and how quickly she loves to say "no", heh, even when she doesn't probably mean it, it just seems to be her word of choice and it fits her too. Heaven help Bill and Jen when she's old enough to start making real choices that she's thought about, either what she wears or what she wants to eat, what toys to play with, etc, they'll be getting bombarded with "nos".

[Steff]

I've been married 21 years & I can guarantee you, if my hubby was planning a party for me, he'd still pick food he likes over what I would want.  He'd never be able to pick out a dress for me to wear & Gawd knows I'd probably die before wearing anything he did pick out.  lol  I still love him to death, but I enjoy seeing how in touch with Jen's likes/wants Bill is. 

[jodo]

There was also the dubbed in "Mama" at the train station to segway the end of Will and Bill's up close look at the train on the platform.   I've also heard at least two fake  "I love you" from Zoey this season.  The shenanigans are endless.  Couple that with Bill asking Will to "hug your sister" while on the train at his b-day party.  I'm all for encouraging affection, but it seemed so out of place and random.  It was like Bill, aware they were filming this special moment, thought "Oh let's get the kids to do something adorable".  I'm all for encouraging affection, but a lot of this is so staged.

 

Re the dubbing.....I noticed there is a few seconds delay from the time it is spoken to the time I see it in closed captioning.  I noticed that for this show only...Sister Wives, no delay, another TLC show...was watching a movie and the spoken words and caption were also perfectly in sync....it couldn't be more obvious that TLC is leaving room to insert language that isn't there.   

Edited June 16, 2014 by jodo

[CousinAmy]

Does TLC control "Closed Captioning" or isn't that a separate service? 

[Bella]

Does TLC control "Closed Captioning" or isn't that a separate service? 

 

It's a separate service. But the caption writers for prerecorded shows typically use scripts that are provided to them from the show or network.

[jodo]

Closed captioning is a setting on your tv you can turn off or off based on the program you are watching.  I am not sure why one program would differ from another in the synchronization of actual words spoken to captions viewed unless the network had something to do with it?

[Bella]

Closed captioning is a setting on your tv you can turn off or off based on the program you are watching.  I am not sure why one program would differ from another in the synchronization of actual words spoken to captions viewed unless the network had something to do with it?

 

Right, you control whether you see the captions or not. But the captioners work in advance from a script they receive from the show or network. They often see the show as they work in order to add sound effects, but would they change words from the script if they thought they heard something different? Probably not.

[jodo]

Hmm then I wonder how the words get added to what we see/hear?

[Bella]

Hmm then I wonder how the words get added to what we see/hear?

 

If the script differs from what's being shown, that's the issue. A script given to closed captioners should match the audio perfectly. What I'm reading here in the comments is that that might not be the case. 

[jodo]

Yes, a few of us have commented on it.  Will's UH OH when Bill said in SF that Jen and Zoey were going shopping and he had his mouth full; Will saying Mama when they were in the train station in NY and of course his back was to us, and him rhyming off the letters of Happy Birthday mostly with his back to us....some examples I have noticed where he is eating or his back is turned and suddenly the audio is crisp and clear.....??

[eributterfly]

It seems to me that Will has adapted to the beach. I remember in the episode when he first went to the beach, Bill stated that he better get used to it because with Jen he would be spending a lot of time there. He probably didn't have a choice in the matter, but has probably grown to like it. After all he loves the water. I do believe that Jen is self adsorbed but, like me, when it's my birthday it's all about me. The fact that Bill gets that too is awesome in my opinion. The whole issue with the voice not matching scenes or whatever, really doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I remember a scene when they went to Lego land with Bills entire family and at the end you hear Will say Bye, and it's obvious it was recorded at a different time but I guess that is an indication that what we hear and when we hear it isn't always authentic or reality, but we know it's scripted so it goes with the territory.

[cassaundroll]

The only problem is that it doesn't seem to be just Jen's birthday that it's "all about her."  If we were discussing a reality TV mom who is not quite so popular with the viewing audience -- perhaps because that mom isn't so defenseless-looking or doesn't smile and giggle quite so much or because her kids are no longer cute -- we'd call that by its rightful name: narcissism.  It's been clear to me, at least, from the get-go that what Jen wants, Jen gets, and Bill had better go along with the program or else!  Same routine now that she's got kids.  There's a difference between teaching children that the world doesn't revolve around them and ignoring their individual likes and dislikes.

[wrestlesflamingos]

What makes you see the kids as props?  She seems warm and engaged with them.  When I think prop, I think of Giuliana and Bill's kid. Giuliana seems ambivalent/annoyed with her son and often pines for trips or houses that would never work for a small kid.

 

I suppose I could see how Jen was fussy about the party and probably concerned with her own image. I do think she finds joy in being a mother and parenting.

[jodo]

What makes you see the kids as props?

 

I see the kids as being something like "props" in that they complete a picture of a typical American family unit of 2.5 (?) kids, one a boy and one a girl; the boy having the traits of his Dad and being best "buds" and the girl being a little princess with all the traits of her Mom.  Jen isn't as warm to Will as she used to be and even then when he was the only kid in town she was not overwhelming in her attachment to him.  With Jen everything is task related and how to get through the tasks if that makes sense.  I can't recall seeing her hug or kiss Will or Zoey unless it was for the camera and on command "give me a kiss!"

 .      

 

edited by jodo to remove double post from a timeout issue! 

Edited August 19, 2014 by jodo

[cassaundroll]

I believe motherhood was another item on Jen's bucket list; she's extremely competitive and has made more than one comment essentially saying "now I'm a mother, too."  It's obvious that she's determined to achieve whatever goal she sets - and she does; gotta give her props for that - and she ALWAYS wanted a daughter named Zoey.  This was stated in much earlier episodes.  I see her as feeling annoyed with and not very interested in Will now that she has the "girly-girl" to dress up, have tea with, and show off (Zoey is stunning), but just my view.

 

Personally, from what I've seen, it appears neither parent is "24/7"; they have nannies and grandparents and no doubt hoards of staff about which we know nothing and which they'll take care never to reveal lest they be accused of not being able to do everything all alone.

 

To adopt children in order to become a member of "the mommy club" (I believe she's used this exact term) and to put them on public display to boost or maintain ratings so everyone can retire from their respective jobs, is pretty much the epitomy of selfishness, IMO.  I see objectification of the kids (Jen projecting her likes, dislikes, personality traits, taste in clothing, and hobbies) instead of a respectful investigation into who they are as people in their own right and what they might enjoy.  Given that they don't even have a yard in which to play (?), I'm unsure how much freedom they're being given to spontaneously discover themselves. 

Edited August 19, 2014 by cassaundroll

[wrestlesflamingos]

I'd ask you to consider that she is a Neonatalogist.  She spent a considerable amount of her life learning to care for very sick babies and fetuses.  Can't that stand for her passion about children?  I honestly believe being a mother was just as important as being a doctor or wife.  I believe she's in it for raising children.

 

Oh - about the yard - I grew up in NYC and am perfectly well adjusted.  In fact, I've never had a yard.  There's many different ways to live and no one has the optimal approach.

[SistaLadybug]

I think much of what is pointed out as evidence of selfishness on Jen's part is relatively normal, at least in my experience of motherhood - both as a mother myself and as someone who knows many mothers. 

 

I know that being a mother is something that was always on the list of things I want to do in my life and I had a name for my daughter in my head for years.  I don't have a son so I don't know how I would relate to one, but I know that I feel very close to my daughter because she's a girl and we enjoy many of the same things.  She's now 11 but before she was old enough, I did things with her that *I* enjoy because she wasn't old enough to tell me what she'd prefer.  At this point, Zoey is 2 (?).  She likely doesn't even know what she likes and if she does, she isn't old enough to really communicate that to her mother.  Jen hasn't got much to go on at this point - it is completely normal for her to do the things that she thinks are fun to do with Zoey until Zoey is in a position to say "No, I don't like that and I'd rather do [this]."

 

Of course, my child isn't on public display as I don't have a television show about my life, but had I found that I was unable to conceive or carry a child to term, I certainly would have adopted in order to "become a member of the Mommy Club".  I still plan to adopt in the future, as I come from a family that has both fostered and adopted children.  I think adoption is extraordinarily *unselfish* and I am happy for the Arnold-Kleins that they were able to add two beautiful children to their family in that way.

I'd ask you to consider that she is a Neonatalogist.  She spent a considerable amount of her life learning to care for very sick babies and fetuses.  Can't that stand for her passion about children?  I honestly believe being a mother was just as important as being a doctor or wife.  I believe she's in it for raising children.

 

Oh - about the yard - I grew up in NYC and am perfectly well adjusted.  In fact, I've never had a yard.  There's many different ways to live and no one has the optimal approach.

I grew up in the inner city.  I never had a yard throughout my entire childhood.  I'm perfectly well-adjusted and my childhood was happy.  I managed to play on the concrete as did all the other city dwellers.