The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

[apinknightmare]

Personally, I disagree that Laurel was a highlight in S3 - lying to her dad about Sara dying, burying her without any of her family there, tricking Quentin into thinking he was talking to Sara by dressing up as her. Bleck. 

Although I will give her credit that she was dumb enough in some of the stuff she did when she first started out as BC that I got a good laugh out of her from time to time.

[wonderwall]

7 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Personally, I disagree that Laurel was a highlight in S3 - lying to her dad about Sara dying, burying her without any of her family there, tricking Quentin into thinking he was talking to Sara by dressing up as her. Bleck. 

Although I will give her credit that she was dumb enough in some of the stuff she did when she first started out as BC that I got a good laugh out of her from time to time.

Let's not forget that after Quentin finds out that Laurel had deceived him, she barges into his office and demands that he forgive her and that he can't stay mad at her forever. She couldn't even give Quentin time to grieve and it feels like she never understood just how much she took so much away from him.

Ah Laurel... You're such a terrible and self involved person lol

Edited July 28, 2017 by wonderwall

[Cleanqueen]

Laurel was the worst part of season 3 and there was Ra's Al Ghul in the same season

[LeighAn]

Do you know what I find amusing right now? Re Comic canon argument.

That Felicity Smoak is more comic canon then Black Siren. Felicity Smoak began in the Firestorm comics and the Arrow version of the character was included into the New 52 continuity for a run. Black Siren did not begin in the comics and as far as I'm aware has never appeared in a comic. She was an original character in the DC animated universe. 

Do you think the so called "comic fans" who use that title right now to bitch about Olicity (conviently when there's spoilers about a wedding on the horizon) or calling DINAH DRAKE (an actual comic canon character) a "fake" realise that they are actually stanning a made up character who represents everything they supposedly hate about the Arrow writers-taking liberties with characters and breaking away from a set canon and following their own creative juices.

I'm sorry I just don't buy that fans on the internet using "because comics/comic canon only" arguments have actual knowledge or respect for comics when using it in the same breath of treating Black Siren like a Demi God, calling Dinah Drake (the writers attempts to actually give the show a comic canon accurate representation of Black Canary) a fake, and raging on the Olicity relationship as wrong and ruining the show but being absolutely okay with Black Siren and Oliver hooking up and having a relationship.

 

In the wise words of Inigo Montoya "because comics" "comic canon":

 

[Starfish35]

15 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Black Siren did not begin in the comics and as far as I'm aware has never appeared in a comic. She was an original character in the DC animated universe. 

Eh.... it's a little of both.  Black Siren IS from Justice League, but her name was Donna Nance, not Dinah Laurel Lance.  (And she was a superhero, not a villain.) DLL is from the comics, even though she's never used the name Black Siren.  And DLL in the comics is a meta-human, whereas Donna was not a meta, if I'm remembering correctly.  So basically they just took the name from JL and slapped it on a villainous version of comics!DLL.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Starfish35

[strikera0]

The animated version of Black Siren is actually based on the Golden Age version of Black Canary: Dinah Drake Lance. That's why she's not a meta but an excellent fighter. 

[Starfish35]

Just now, strikera0 said:

The animated version of Black Siren is actually based on the Golden Age version of Black Canary: Dinah Drake Lance. That's why she's not a meta but an excellent fighter. 

Yeah.  Weren't all the characters based on Golden Age DC superheroes?

[LeighAn]

10 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Eh.... it's a little of both.  Black Siren IS from Justice League, but her name was Donna Nance, not Dinah Laurel Lance.  (And she was a superhero, not a villain.) DLL is from the comics, even though she's never used the name Black Siren.  And DLL in the comics is a meta-human, whereas Donna was not a meta, if I'm remembering correctly.  So basically they just took the name from JL and slapped it on a villainous version of comics!DLL.

Im not seeing how that disputes my point?

Black Siren was an original character in the animated show. Dinah Laurel Lance was not to my knowledge a villainous character named Black Siren.

 

Ergo by the same "comic fans" logic Black Siren is not comic canon. 

[Starfish35]

Yes but Dinah Laurel Lance IS comic canon.   And she's still DLL even if she's using the Black Siren name rather than Black Canary.  That's my point.  

Edited July 27, 2017 by Starfish35

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

Yes but Dinah Laurel Lance IS comic canon.   And she's still DLL even if she's using the Black Siren name rather than Black Canary.  That's my point.  

And was Dinah Laurel Lance a villainous character? Who took up another alter ego name to go and be a Villian?

[Starfish35]

I guess I'm missing your point somehow?  i thought you were arguing that Arrow's Black Siren was an original character not from the comics, and I guess I disagree to the extent that she's still DLL who is a comics canon character, even if DLL in the comics was never a villain.  Neither was Huntress to the best of my knowledge, but I wouldn't call her an original character either.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Starfish35

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

I guess I'm missing your point somehow?  i thought you were arguing that Arrow's Black Siren was an original character not from the comics, and I guess I disagree to the extent that she's still DLL who is a comics canon character, even if DLL in the comics was never a villain.  Neither was Huntress to the best of my knowledge, but I wouldn't call her an original character either.

I believe the point is that Arrow's Black Siren AKA Laurel is as twisted a version of "comics" as Arrow's Felicity Smoak. Claiming that Arrow's Black Siren is comics canon while claiming Arrow's Felicty Smoak isn't because she's nothing like the Firestorm character is Pure Stanning Bullshit. 

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

I guess I'm missing your point somehow?  i thought you were arguing that Arrow's Black Siren was an original character not from the comics, and I guess I disagree to the extent that she's still DLL who is a comics canon character, even if DLL in the comics was never a villain.  Neither was Huntress to the best of my knowledge, but I wouldn't call her an original character either.

I guess by my interpretation, just having the name but not the significant characteristics (like not being evil) makes them  NOT the same character.  

Edited July 28, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Starfish35]

14 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I believe the point is that Arrow's Black Siren AKA Laurel is as twisted a version of "comics" as Arrow's Felicity Smoak. Claiming that Arrow's Black Siren is comics canon while claiming Arrow's Felicty Smoak isn't because she's nothing like the Firestorm character is Pure Stanning Bullshit. 

Well that I would agree with, but then all the Arrow characters are different from their comics counterparts to a greater or lesser extent.  But yes, it's crazy to try to claim Black Siren is somehow a more valid character than Felicity based in comics. 

I was just disagreeing with the idea that Arrow's Black Siren is an original character.

[Primal Slayer]

That is definitely something that attracted MG and co. to using Siren more imo. They weren't any longer bound to the same expectations for the character as they were with Laurel which is probably something that partially disinterested them in the character.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Primal Slayer

[formerlyfreedom]

Topic please - it's devolved to re-arguing past relationships and storylines; this is the Media topic. Thank you.

[tv echo]

Putting aside shipping preferences and canon arguments for the moment, a major problem that I have with the CBR article posted upthread is its internal logical inconsistency. What they write in the Black Canary section is inconsistent with the rest of the article in at least three respects:

One, the main premise for the article is that Arrow is getting stale and needs new faces ("casting shake-ups") to "re-energize" the show. If so, then CBR should be praising the casting of fresh face JH as a new Black Canary, and not advocating the return of an old face in essentially an old role. Indeed, in the Speedy section, CBR says that the show needs "fresh blood and fresh characters." 

Second, CBR complains that one of the problems with Dinah is that she "has almost no relationship with any of the existing team members." Yet, they want to replace Thea Queen as Speedy with a new character, Mia Dearden, thus replacing Oliver's sister with someone who has no relationship with any of the existing team members. Indeed, a lot of the suggested casting shake-ups are new people.

Third, in the Green Arrow section, CBR says that Oliver has "loved and lost just about every lady on the show, so even his romances feel tired." Yet they want to bring back a romance between Oliver and Laurel, albeit a different version of Laurel, but still played by the same actress. And even if you treat this Laurel as a different character, it would still be the same two actors with the same dynamic and same chemistry (or lack of chemistry) as before. Moreover, she would make the third Canary that Oliver would be romancing. Talk about tired. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by tv echo

[strikera0]

JH for Belle Magazine:

[wonderwall]

Emily was doing so well and was about to answer an important question until Echo interrupted.  I have never been more annoyed by anyone. Echo was really annoying this weekend because he just kept interrupting everyone and I just can't wait for the character to leave.

But watch the video because Emily answers the first question beautifully.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/07/28/arrows-emily-bett-rickards-and-echo-kellum-explain-sexy-threats/

[Mellowyellow]

That video made me rage so much.  She was articulate and doing really well like you said. Echo is horribly attention seeking. He really needs to go away. Even worse he just talks about crap. 

[wonderwall]

15 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

That video made me rage so much.  She was articulate and doing really well like you said. Echo is horribly attention seeking. He really needs to go away. Even worse he just talks about crap. 

He forced himself into a lot of questions, tried to be funny even though his jokes weren't funny at all... The worst one was when he inserted himself into a question about strong women just to make a joke. He was the worst. On the other hand Rick grew a lot more on me this SDCC. I like him. He can stay.

Edited July 29, 2017 by wonderwall

[LeighAn]

I like that she didn't rise to the bait about the first question of isn't it so much better to not be dealing with relationship stuff (I see you CBR). 

[Chaser]

Grrrr...we were so close to her pulling a DR and actually saying something!

That first answer was great. She didn't have to address the relationship stuff but I love that she did and she turned his negative connotation around.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Chaser

[bijoux]

That detoriorated quickly.

[BkWurm1]

EBR always gives good answers...when she actually GIVES an answer, lol.   

[tv echo]

Laura Hurley is Deputy TV Editor for CinemaBlend...

[tv echo]

Arrow's Juliana Harkavy Says Working On The Walking Dead Prepared Her
by Matthew Mueller | July 28, 2017
http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/07/29/arrow-juliana-harkavy-walking-dead-prepared/

Quote

Actress Juliana Harkavy debuted last season as Dinah Drake, the latest to use the Black Canary title. ComicBook.com's Russ Burlingame had the chance to learn how her time as Alisha on The Walking Dead helped prepare her for Arrow.

"That is a, it really was a great starting point, because I did two episodes of the Walking Dead, I was there for about a month. It was like the perfect dip your feet into the water, see what this is like, see how you like it and I loved it. The fans were amazing. It was a great first entry into this world and I didn't even realize that it was preparing me at the time but yeah, it was."
*  *  *
Harkavy follows Sara Lance (Caity Lotz) and Laurel Lance (Katie Cassidy) in the role, though both are still involved with the Arrowverse in some capacity.

When asked if the three-peat aspect of the character makes her nervous she said "You know I'm always a little bit nervous, like as an actor. I don't even know if it has anything to do with this role. As an actor you're always scared you're going to lose your job, or that you might not have one, so I just take every moment as such a blessing that I'm on the show. I hope it continues forever, and if it doesn't, even if I had done one episode as the Canary it would've been fulfilling for like a lifetime "

Edited July 29, 2017 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, tv echo said:

Laura Hurley is Deputy TV Editor for CinemaBlend...

Glad to hear she will have an official platform again.  

[BkWurm1]

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/07/29/arrow-season-6-katie-cassidy-black-sirens-backstory/

This interview (I don't recall seeing it posted before) is IMO very misleading and boy can you see the interviewer's bias coming out in her favor, but I'm getting the impression that KC is very much on the bandwagon of redeeming Laurel and maybe even getting Oliver back.  She talks about her belief that once people find out why BS is the way she is, that they will not think so harshly of her and of her hopes for redemption and of getting BS back to *who she is at her core.

Sigh

*I edited the italicized part.  Originally I wrote about her getting back to the old Laurel people knew but that was partly my bias coming out BUT KC did talk about getting BS back to who she was at her core after also hinting that Quentin should be asking if she is his daughter.    I put two and two together.  

Edited July 30, 2017 by BkWurm1

[LeighAn]

I'd say I'm shock that Katie has not and will not ever change with her need to always go against what the show wants to suit her own self driven agenda but yeah....not surprised.

 

I swear the Black Siren/Oliver Queen are soulmates interview won't be far off from her.

[insomniadreams88]

12 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/07/29/arrow-season-6-katie-cassidy-black-sirens-backstory/

This interview (I don't recall seeing it posted before) is IMO very misleading and boy can you see the interviewer's bias coming out in her favor, but I'm getting the impression that KC is very much on the bandwagon of redeeming Laurel and maybe even getting Oliver back.  She talks about her belief that once people find out why BS is the way she is, that they will not think so harshly of her and of her hopes for redemption and of getting BS back to the old Laurel people knew.  

Sigh

And I was just thinking I was pleasantly surprised that it seemed like KC had finally let go of O/L (apparently on any Earth, even if they're not from the same Earth). I haven't watched the interview nor will I (I refuse to go to comicbook.com if I can avoid it).

And have there been any articles or comments from anyone that point out a redeemed BS does not mean she'll suddenly become E1 LL? 

[LeighAn]

6 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

 

And have there been any articles or comments from anyone that point out a redeemed BS does not mean she'll suddenly become E1 LL? 

The only comments have come from Katie herself. Marc Wendy and the rest of the cast keeping talking her up as a straight villian and how much they love and prefer her as a villian. 

 

This is the thing that would bug me about being a fan of hers. She constantly sells something that's not happening in the show to make herself sound more important and crucial for her own vanity, so that when fans of her watch the show and realise they arent getting what she's told them they are getting they go after the writers for "disrespecting" her character even though she's sold them a completely fake character storyline to begin with. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by LeighAn

[BkWurm1]

For those that don't want to listen or go to that site, here is a partial transcript:

It starts with a weird question about when she was going to pitch to be the villain in Taken (um, her character was killed in the first movie) to which she talks about how much she likes playing bad ass and strong women.  Then the interviewer asks if it was hard to shift gears between playing Laurel and BS and how that affected her dynamic with Paul.  And she talks about yes, that was actually a big thing between her and Paul but that ultimately the confusion made their scenes better since it made sense for him to say... "What?  "Is this my daughter?  Is she?" and then she talks about how as the season goes on we'd learn more about her backstory and what her relationship looked like with her father.  

Do you think there is a chance at redemption for this character?

"Yes, I do think there is a chance at redemption for her.  I think there will be people that understand once she has the opportunity...once we learn, you know, what she’s gone through and why she is the way she is, I think people will be able to relate to it, you know, have sympathy for her, you know and probably help her…I think there is a chance at really helping her get back to who she is at her core and potentially not be so crazy. And have a good side of her, but I think as time goes on we’ll learn that."    

Obviously on earth  2 Oliver was a very big part of her life, will we see any changes or a deepening of how she, why she reacts to Oliver on Earth 1 the way she does?  

"Will we see...?"

Kind of an understanding of why she reacts to him here the way she does.

“Yes, I think the more we learn about her backstory and what her relationship was like with Oliver, absolutely, and I think everything will make sense in the end.  And not necessarily make her as bad of a person and you might be like, ' Oh, ok that makes sense ', but yes, I do think will lear...we'll know more."

Edited July 30, 2017 by BkWurm1

[calliope1975]

BS aided in the kidnapping and potential killing of a child. There's no backstory that's going to redeem that for me. (Even if I hate said child.) 

[wonderwall]

8 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

For those that don't want to listen or go to that site, here is a partial transcript:

It starts with a weird question about when she was going to pitch to be the villain in Taken (um, her character was killed in the first movie) to which she talks about how much she likes playing bad ass and strong women.  Then the interviewer asks if it was hard to shift gears between playing Laurel and BS and how that affected her dynamic with Paul.  And she talks about yes, that was actually a big thing between her and Paul but that ultimately the confusion made their scenes better since it made sense for him to say... "What?  "Is this my daughter?  Is she?" and then she talks about how as the season goes on we'd learn more about her backstory and what her relationship looked like with her father.  

Do you think there is a chance at redemption for this character?

"Yes, I do think there is a chance at redemption for her.  I think there will be people that understand once she has the opportunity...once we learn, you know, what she’s gone through and why she is the way she is, I think people will be able to relate to it, you know, have sympathy for her, you know and probably help her…I think there is a chance at really helping her get back to who she is at her core and potentially not be so crazy. And have a good side of her, but I think as time goes on we’ll learn that."    

Obviously on earth  2 Oliver was a very big part of her life, will we see any changes or a deepening of how she, why she reacts to Oliver on Earth 1 the way she does?  

"Will we see...?"

Kind of an understanding of why she reacts to him here the way she does.

“Yes, I think the more we learn about her backstory and what her relationship was like with Oliver, absolutely, and I think everything will make sense in the end.  And not necessarily make her as bad of a person and you might be like, ' Oh, ok that makes sense ', but yes, I do think will lear...we'll know more."

Good grief this is entirely different than what the EPs were selling. I feel like this difference in opinion also bleeds into KCs acting. I bet she wasn't meant to look redeemable/have a soft spot for Quentin in 522 but because of KCs headcanons getting in the way that's exactly how it looked like. It's as though she's trying to force the idea of redemption on the writers. I'm not a fan of that. 

It's like how she was flirty with Oliver in 301 and 417... 

God if I were a writer or a fellow actor I'd hate working with her because she can't seem to get out of her own headcanons...

[Guest]

So what I'm getting from this is that KC basically wants to just act like E1 Laurel again? Sure, because that worked so well the first time around. 

My god, let it go. There's a reason why KC is better received as BS. Stick with what works.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Guest

[Primal Slayer]

I dont see anything that indicates that she wants to end up acting like E1 Laurel again. Redemption doesn't mean she turns into a goody two shoes and gets de-clawed. And MG/WM have never said that redemption was out of the question just that it wasn't something they were looking into right now.

22 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

BS aided in the kidnapping and potential killing of a child. There's no backstory that's going to redeem that for me. (Even if I hate said child.) 

Was there anything in 5x22/23 that even indicated Siren knew about Chases endgame?  She certainly didn't aid in kidnapping him since we saw Chase do that all on his own and he wasn't on the island so she didn't come close to killing him. I don't think she was up for dying on an island.

[Guest]

Was Laurel a goody two shoes? I never viewed her that way at all! 

I'm just basing my thoughts on the fact that in that brief scene in 522 with Quentin, she turned into E1 Laurel. So yeah, I do think she'll just fall into that character again, given the chance, even if she's not supposed to. 

And I've said before, if she's on the show for more than 1 season I'm sure a redemption is more likely. I don't think we can ever rule anything out on this show anymore. But personally I'm not remotely interested in that because I think she's much better as BS than she ever was as E1 Laurel/BC. (And I don't want two meta screechers on the team so there's that, too. One is too many, IMO. Haha.)

Edited July 30, 2017 by Guest

[Primal Slayer]

If they do redeem her, as long as they keep the same personality she has now Ill be cool. Keep her sarcastic, bitchy with barely any f's to give. But I don't see them going through with giving her an actual life since that would take to much work so my hopes are not high in general.

[quarks]

39 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I dont see anything that indicates that she wants to end up acting like E1 Laurel again. Redemption doesn't mean she turns into a goody two shoes and gets de-clawed. And MG/WM have never said that redemption was out of the question just that it wasn't something they were looking into right now. 

I can't say that I ever saw Earth-1 Laurel as a goody-two shoes.  Yes, she was introduced as a crusading lawyer who worked extreme hours of overtime to help people who needed a low cost lawyer, and as a woman dealing with her father's alcoholism who often had to rescue him from bars, and yes, this was the woman put up by her own father as bait to catch a criminal, and a woman who brought a suddenly orphaned kid into her apartment, but this was also a woman who got snippy at restaurant staffs when not seated promptly; a woman who willingly worked with a vigilante and was willing to use illegally obtained evidence; a woman who showed up to an Xmas party partly hosted by her ex-boyfriend on the arm of his best friend; a woman who stole evidence from the police and their way to contact the Hood; and a woman who was frequently bitchy and sarcastic. That was all just in the first season. This is a woman who later, in canon, shot a man in the back (yes, as part of saving the Arrow in season two, but, still); threw a bottle at her sister when said sister unexpectedly returned from the dead; blackmailed the DA; went out into the streets to hit a guy with a stick (yeah, the guy was an abusive partner, but still) and much, much more.

Meanwhile, MG/WM have pretty much never said that anything other than using Bruce Wayne/Batman on their show is out of the question, so I'm not reading much into that.  They have said that they enjoyed KC's performance as a villain.

[Primal Slayer]

So she was a well rounded good woman? Cool. 

[Chaser]

I encourage KC to continue to ignore everything WM/MG say, to write in her own backstory and continue to act her version. 

Not only is it entertaining to me, but it worked out super well for her before.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Chaser

[Midnight Lullaby]

Since she can't do nuances if they redeem is she will go back to play E1 LL. LL could be pretty mean and sarcastic when she wanted (towards Sara, Oliver, her dad, Felicity when she was drinking and towards Oliver in S1 and 3) so the personality isn't a real opposite..the opposite is that she is a villain that killed people on the Flash and kidnapped people on Arrow. If they take that away we are back to square 1.

[apinknightmare]

If I were Katie, I'd hope E2 Laurel was written as differently from E1 Laurel as she could get, regardless of whether that includes redemption or not. Because they didn't know what to do with that character to the point they killed her off (and personally, she was irritating to watch). 

As a viewer, if they try to turn her into a Merlyn type who's an ally when it suits her, a person who sticks around beyond all reason to the point where characters look dumb as hell for not killing her on sight? Keep it.

[LeighAn]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

Was there anything in 5x22/23 that even indicated Siren knew about Chases endgame?  She certainly didn't aid in kidnapping him since we saw Chase do that all on his own and he wasn't on the island so she didn't come close to killing him. I don't think she was up for dying on an island.

So you're saying you agree then that she was nothing but Prometheus minion/lackey/bitch? Just does his chores and has no brain of her own? Cool!

 

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

I dont see anything that indicates that she wants to end up acting like E1 Laurel again. Redemption doesn't mean she turns into a goody two shoes and gets de-clawed. And MG/WM have never said that redemption was out of the question just that it wasn't something they were looking into right now. 

Thars basically exactly what Katie said though? She even was about one quote from saying Olivers Siren soul mate. You're right that there is nothing to indicate on the show that'll happen but Katie has her own warped head canons that don't match up with anything that Marc and Wendy have said as far.

 

So she's basically setting herself and her fans up for disappointment and probably going to continue making heart eyes at Oliver while threatening his loved ones and confusing the hell out of people and causing Stephen to look like he's counting down the hours till lunch. 

 

Im just glad I have no personal investment in Black Siren what so ever; but it sucks for the writers.

[leopardprint]

I still don't get the argument that because she was indirectly involved with kidnapping Oliver's son she can't be redeemed when Slade who has done much worse was set on a redemption arc in the very same episode. I don't want to see a redemption arc for either of them but I don't think that argument really holds. 

[Chaser]

If one had to make an arguement about why Slade is more believable, I would probably say the mirakuru (Sp?). He was literally drugged and seeing things in S2.

[LeighAn]

21 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I still don't get the argument that because she was indirectly involved with kidnapping Oliver's son she can't be redeemed when Slade who has done much worse was set on a redemption arc in the very same episode. I don't want to see a redemption arc for either of them but I don't think that argument really holds. 

I don't think she'll be redeemed just because every time someone asks Marc and Wendy (usually the comic book websites) if she'll be redeemed they basically ignore the question and then go on to talk up how much they prefer the villian Black Siren and how much better/how much more they enjoy Katie as a villian. Plus I just feel like if the endgame was to bring Black Siren on just to redeem her and basically have E1 Laurel back then they wouldn't have killed her off in the first place if they had any interest in having Laurel Lance 2.0.

 

Spoiler

Marc mentioned the theme for the Big Bad this year was a family of heroes against a family/team of villains so to be honest I think Black Siren is just one cog in the family of villains thing they are doing.

[calliope1975]

1 hour ago, leopardprint said:

I still don't get the argument that because she was indirectly involved with kidnapping Oliver's son she can't be redeemed when Slade who has done much worse was set on a redemption arc in the very same episode. I don't want to see a redemption arc for either of them but I don't think that argument really holds. 

I don't particularly want nor would buy Slade's potential redeeming either, though he might have the mirukiru as an excuse. (MB is also a better actor so there's that, too.) And I never bought that MM was anything but a psychopathic bad guy no matter how much he went on and on about Thea.

I don't have the finale to rewatch, nor do I have much desire to do so if I had it, but Chase was clearly an unhinged crazy person. With the amount of taunting that he did to Oliver & Co., and the fact that that guy loved a monologue, I cannot see how BS or Talia didn't know his plan regarding Myson. Besides aiding in torturing Oliver, it's why I hope Evelyn is in tiny pieces in her blown up cage. Bunch of garbage villains - which is their intended role, I believe, so success!

[BkWurm1]

5 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

don't have the finale to rewatch, nor do I have much desire to do so if I had it, but Chase was clearly an unhinged crazy person. With the amount of taunting that he did to Oliver & Co., and the fact that that guy loved a monologue, I cannot see how BS or Talia didn't know his plan regarding Myson. Besides aiding in torturing Oliver, it's why I hope Evelyn is in tiny pieces in her blown up cage. Bunch of garbage villains - which is their intended role, I believe, so success!

But did he tell them his whole plan including blowing up the island?  That's the question I want answered.  I can't imagine Chase on his own being able to rig the island with explosives so I jump to Talia's minions doing the job so she'd have to know but it seemed clear that Evelyn didn't know the final part of Chase's plan or she would have been a bit more concerned about being locked in that cage.  Talia abandoned her and let her be captured so she couldn't have expected Talia would come save her. And I also got the impression that BS was just disposable hired help as well.  

I agree that Chase had to have gone on and on about most of his plan, but I suspect he very well could have left off the part where he was going to make sure the island blew up no matter who was still on it.