The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

[lemotomato]

27 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

This whole grouping comic fans into 1 lump sum is so old. There were plenty of "comic" fans who weren't impressed with what they did with Nyssa, there were plenty of "comic" fans who were pissed that they killed off Waller and there were plenty of "comic" fans who werent impressed with Sara's death and how it was handled. Lets not pretend if Felicity was killed off that we wouldn't see WWIII happen on twitter and call for the shows head yet not every "Felicity/Olicity" fan spoke up about any of those deaths, especially Laurels. Laurel has a fanbase that was pissed and they tweeted just their frustations. 

1. I judge based on what I see. I don't argue hypothetical situations. 2. You really don't want me show/get into what "tweeted just their frustations" actually looked like last spring. 

[wonderwall]

18 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

You really don't want me show/get into what "tweeted just their frustations" actually looked like last spring. 

Apparently sending death threats, harassing EBR to the point where the network had to call her and ask her if she was alright etc. = letting out frustrations. 

[Bort]

It's getting a little heated in here. Please let's remember about Being Civil.

[leopardprint]

To me it seems like two separate issues are being conflated:

The often poor treatment of the Laurel Lance character as being somehow caused by the existence of Felicity Smoak. 

Many female characters, including Laurel Lance, have fallen prey to Arrow's lazy dependency on stereotypes and inclusions of the more sexist comic book tropes. 

The argument that Laurel Lance is somehow the victim of sexist writing because for some reason they decided to write Felicity Smoak not in a sexist way is illogical to me. It often sometimes seems like the ire with the poor handling of Laurel Lance is solely directed at Felicity Smoak, a fictional character. That's some S4 magical thinking. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by leopardprint

[ladylaw99]

It really annoys me that Felicity always seems to be dragged in with poor LL/BC.  I don't read comics so KC was my first taste of LL and future BC. She didn't cut it for me for various reasons but I have enough respect to see where she failed and it has nothing to do with Felicity  or any other female.

I hate that so many women have been killed on this show but I don't blame anybody but the writers. At the end of the day these are characters not real people so I don't understand the mentality of the hate thrown at the actors or writers.  It is just a show.  

[BkWurm1]

12 hours ago, tv echo said:

Olicity Rising: Arrow 5x20 Olicity Heart-to-Heart
MARILYN PORTER   May 4, 2017
http://www.heroesandheartbreakers.com/blogs/2017/05/arrow-season-5-episode-20-underneath-olicity-back-together

She felt he did this because he didn’t trust her. She urged him to look into that and get back to her. And maybe when he figures it out, she’ll be ready to talk and they can maybe reunite.

Of course, we know how this went. Oliver didn’t look into himself, at why he pushed her away. And Felicity met and began to date Billy. And that’s where we picked up in 5x01. It’s a hard pill to swallow. I fully believe that in 5x05, when Oliver visited Felicity on the loft balcony, they both lied. He lied about being okay with her dating someone else. And she lied about the door between them being closed. And this is the crux of why these two have been at such odds this season.
*  *  *
The good news is that they’ve worked through that now. That’s the second thing this episode needed to establish. The present day showed Oliver and Felicity finally talking out their issues with each other and finally (finally) understanding one another. Oliver made it clear that it wasn’t Felicity that he didn’t trust, it was himself. He keeps her out because of how he sees himself, how he doubts himself. And she understands what it’s like to fall so deep that you justify the things you do to those you love, even if it’s wrong.

 

I really enjoyed how they explained the present day things so simply.  And also how they made sense of what happened between the bunker sex and Billy.  It's a really valid point that Oliver hadn't been working on figuring out himself.  He hadn't even gotten around to letting other people join the team.  It puts things in perspective that it was more than just Felicity being ready.  She'd be ready when she felt something had changed.   

 

 

10 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I'm genuinely surprised by some of the reviews I've read. A lot of positivity for Olicity, even on sites that don't usually like them. I guess all they needed was a reminder of just how great O/F are together and that, sadly, wasn't really apparent during the break-up angst. 

It's kind of funny how many thought this would bury O/F for good and yet it's actually made fans like them again. LOL.

Yeah, there were even a few on that other site that seemed to change their minds or at least open them.  A big part of the new open mindedness does seem to stem from the apology.  As frustrating as I initially found it, maybe its presence will be beneficial in the long run for the fandom.   

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, ladylaw99 said:

I hate that so many women have been killed on this show but I don't blame anybody but the writers. At the end of the day these are characters not real people so I don't understand the mentality of the hate thrown at the actors or writers.  It is just a show.  

Yup. If there's one thing I don't like - it's tagging hate over a TV show. Whether that be the EPs/Actors/Crew etc. I personally don't like it. And there's really no excuse for tagging people in hate. Not even to KC who I really could care less about. Whether one is frustrated or angry or whatever - it doesn't justify hate like that. There are healthier ways of letting off steam than putting down other people. 

[statsgirl]

When I heard that there was going to be an Oliver/Felicity bottle episode, I got very worried that those who weren't Olicity shippers would hate it and them.  I'm very pleasantly surprised to find most people like it.  I guess that's what happens with good writing.

47 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

The often poor treatment of the Laurel Lance character as being somehow caused by the existence of Felicity Smoak.

It's the other way around -- the poor reception of Laurel Lance caused the existence of Felicity Smoak as a regular character.

I wonder if it had been Helena or Sara who replaced Laurel, would the feelings have been less harsh?

Edited May 6, 2017 by statsgirl

[Primal Slayer]

Considering that plenty of people hated Laurel at the beginning, I don't think it would have changed that much. Even if it had stayed Laurel, if they kept angst and poorly written drama she would've been getting hate. Iris gets hate and she is the original love interest.

[lemotomato]

48 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It's the other way around -- the poor reception of Laurel Lance caused the existence of Felicity Smoak as a regular character.

I wonder if it had been Helena or Sara who replace Laurel, would the feelings have been less harsh?

Helena's from the comics, and Sara's a mask/fighter. So I do think the feelings would be less harsh. Felicity is not only a noncombatant, she's essentially an original character to the show (because she's nothing like her namesake in the comics). That's apparently acceptable for sidekicks, not LIs

Edited May 6, 2017 by lemotomato

[leopardprint]

3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

36 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

 

It's the other way around -- the poor reception of Laurel Lance caused the existence of Felicity Smoak as a regular character.

You know, I'm not sure they actually have much to do with each other because they occupied such very different roles on the show, at least in S1. 

Unless you mean that that's another erroneous conclusion some people argue to hate Felicity Smoak, then please disregard. 

I think they setup the Laurel Lance character for failure by waiting three and a half seasons to start her hero's journey and having her risk her life for some papers. None of this had anything to do with Felicity Smoak. 

Its some weird "there can be only one (blondish heroic lady)" type thinking. 

Hahah, I was all positive because 520 had multiple convos between only POCs. 

[statsgirl]

41 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

You know, I'm not sure they actually have much to do with each other because they occupied such very different roles on the show, at least in S1. 

I meant it as because Laurel failed as a love interest for Oliver from the pilot, the show was looking around for a new love interest for Oliver.  They settled on Felicity but it could as easily have been Helena or McKenna or Sara.

If KC/Laurel had been a successful love interest for SA/Oliver, Felicity would have been an occasional character they consulted for tech issues like Pike maybe instead of being part of OTA.

[Morrigan2575]

I always find it odd when people blame the writing for LLs failure. I'll give them that for Lauiver because of the whole cheating thing but, let's be honest if SA/KC had the chemistry that SA/EBR had, most fans would have forgiven the history of cheating (probably).

The simple reality is that KC was horribly miscast. She cannot play, kind or warm or do action at all. She is better (I can't even say good) at playing bitchy characters, even then she's very limited. I mean seriously go back and watch S3 of SPN.

I'll never understand blaming the writing because there's not a single writer. So every writer just sucks at writing LL? Every director just sucks when it comes to getting KC to play the proper emotion? Every Producer and there's 4 (Berlanti, AJK (S1-2), MG and WM (S4-5)) somehow sucks at writing for and, coming up with stories for just 1 character and 1 actress?

I've done this exercise before, either at TWOP or here very early on. You can blame the writers for bad dialogue or plot wholes, blame The EPs for bad arcs, casting fails and changes in direction, blame the directors for bad Shots/camera techniques, but blame the actor when they can't freaking act.

If the writing calls for her to play drunk and she's dead sober that's an acting fail not a writing/directing fail. When the writing calls for her to be poisoned and she plays drunk, guess what that's an acting fail. When the writing calls for her to play warm and all she can manage is bitch, once again that's an acting fail (I could go on)

The writing on Arrow is not spectacular but, I'm tired of the blame the writers game for KCs (and only KCs) failures.  Every other person on this show fails to deliver the proper emotion in a scene and it's an acting fail. KC fails to properly deliver emotion and it's the writers or directors fault.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Midnight Lullaby]

There are also people that are LL's fans because they like the character or/and the actress and use the comic canon argument to praise her and tear down Felicity that are not comics' readers..it gets pretty obvious when they get into discussions that they know nothing and pretend to be comics' readers because they think it makes them superior fans..in my experience those are the ones that get more nasty during discussions about Laurel/Felicity and canon because they use it as a reason to justify sending hate, not to express their love for the original character..And those fans were happy when they fridged Sara because it meant Laurel was going to be BC.

There's definitely an argument to be made about women being treated poorly on Arrow (even if compared to the Flash...) and different people that like different characters have pointed it out during the years but when I see the same people that celebrated Sara's death attacking the writers for Laurel's death using sexism as an argument..well..and I said I hated how Laurel was killed and how men are allowed to die as heroes while women most of the times aren't but I didn't suddenly realize that.

I know comics readers in real life and they are all good, normal people. There are issues of sexism in the community of course but I think people that use their (supposed or real) knowledge of the comics to send hate make it seem they are, as a whole, worse than they are. 

[Primal Slayer]

The writers are absolutely to blame for majority of Laurels problems. It wasn't Katie Cassidy who went into a building to get a bunch of papers, it wasn't Katie Cassidy who became an addict. Katie didnt make the acting choice of having Laurel lie to her father for half a season to try and protect him from his daughters death. She played the role great but she isnt putting her character in these situations. Even though the addict storyline wasn't my favorite, she sold the hell out of it and she was one of the few saving graces of Season 3.  

There is definitely sexism by a lot of comic fans who are guys, they complained about Laurel when she cried to much and it was a reason why they disliked her, once it left the characters realm and went to Felicity, they started doing the same. Neither actress made those choices for their characters but they did what they were told to do. Of course they leave Barry alone most of the time. 

There are Olicity fans who complain about sexism but then go and try to slut-shame KC over certain photos and make up disgusting claims as to how she got her roles or just call for her head on a constant basis. 

MG found it weird how there is so a line in the sand when it comes to Arrow fans but that he hasn't experienced that with Legends of Tomorrow which is true but if he wrote the Arrow characters how he did with LoT the line would fade a little, of course it would still be there but I don't think it be as big as it is.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Primal Slayer

[Velocity23]

27 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

The writers are absolutely to blame for majority of Laurels problems. It wasn't Katie Cassidy who went into a building to get a bunch of papers, it wasn't Katie Cassidy who became an addict. Katie didnt make the acting choice of having Laurel lie to her father for half a season to try and protect him from his daughters death. She played the role great but she isnt putting her character in these situations. Even though the addict storyline wasn't my favorite, she sold the hell out of it and she was one of the few saving graces of Season 3.  People complained that she cried to much and it was a reason why they disliked her, once it left the characters realm and went to Felicity, they started doing the same. Neither actress made those choices for their characters but they did what they were told to do.

There are Olicity fans who complain about sexism but then go and try to slut-shame KC over certain photos and make up disgusting claims as to how she got her roles or just call for her head on a constant basis. 

 

No one forced KC to held on her headcanons that L/O are soulmates. But she wanted that more then anything else.

KC fans harrased all the actors, EPs with KCs blessings. And that was the ugliest thing i ever seen. 

[Primal Slayer]

KC can hold on to her headcanon all she wants, it didn't effect the character imo. 

We can get into a mud throwing contest over whose fans are the worst all day but KC never gave her blessing for any of it. I know both sides of the fandom have their rotten eggs and don't have to pretend that every KC fan is innocent. 

[Velocity23]

Yes it did when she plays the character like she did in s4, and plays things that arent in the script.. Or giving the interviews like she did in s4. That IGN interview with KC and EBR was cringe worthy. 

 

And you were the one singling out a certain part of the fandom. When an actor publicly aknowledges that ugly hashtag that was used to harass actors, EPs, writers and fans, for me it means giving it a blessing. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by Velocity23

[Primal Slayer]

It wasn't an ugly hashtag to me, I used it and follow plenty of people who used it who didn't harass actors, EPS, writers or fans. KC didn't go through millions of tweets and like every single one of em,  the tweets that she liked, there was nothing wrong with them, she liked tweets supporting her, they didnt call for the shows head, didn't say anything about anyone who she worked with. Actors have engaged with twitter fans who have openly harassed KC, called for her head, said disgusting things about her so I guess they must support those fans in their thoughts.

 

But in the end it doesnt matter. This is the same show where anyone who interacts with KC, it's "network mandated" lol. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by Primal Slayer

[Velocity23]

Well no wonder she didnt say anything about the harassment her supposed "friends" got through her fans when its all network mandated. 

You might have seen it as positive but it was pure harassment for me. And the hashtag was basically lets get Arrow canceled without their precious fav. 

[lemotomato]

The hashtag itself is ugly, regardless of the post that accompanies it. It originated with the sentiment that the show itself should not exist without LL. It implies LL/KC are more important to the show than GA/SA and that everyone should lose their jobs just because KC did. If fans simply wanted to express their disappointment and that they'd miss her, there are far more neutral tags they could have thought of.

Let's not forget that KC thanked the author of an article that praised her while trashing her co-stars and the show.  Of all the articles that were written at the time, she chose to acknowledge  the one that was outright hateful.

Edited May 6, 2017 by lemotomato

[Midnight Lullaby]

Legends is in a completely different situation from Arrow..the comparison makes no sense. There is one spot as the lead's one true love and that's the problem. I think Laurel was the lamest of the three BC but I was fine with her being a team member like Roy or now the newbies are. I find all of them pretty uninteresting. But her fans wanted her as the co lead and Oliver's LI (and if not involved romantically at least the most important person for him) and she didn't work like that because the writers found a better romance with Felicity and developed OTA as the core team. There were always going to be problems because Laurel couldn't have the role her fans wanted her to have (and was supposed to have originally). And I understand that going from the lead to a secondary character is a tough pill to swallow but you also have to acknowledge the reality at some point. Either you are good with what they write or hope for a future tv show or movie with a different dynamic. The fandom will never be united because they have two different visions of how they show should be and they aren't compatible.

[tv echo]

The world has gone topsy-turvy!  The ComicBook reviewer loved 520 (see review posted on previous page) - and now the two romance authors who review Arrow for USA Today didn't like 520.  I'm not going to bother quoting them because I disagreed with a lot of what they said.  Basically, they thought the episode was boring and had too much dialogue and not enough action...

Allison Brennan and Lavinia Kent analyze 'Arrow' season 5, episode 20, ‘Underneath’: What happened to subtlety?
By: Allison Brennan and Lavinia Kent    | May 5, 2017 5:28 pm
http://happyeverafter.usatoday.com/2017/05/05/allison-brennan-lavinia-kent-recap-arrow-season-5-episode-20-underneath/ 

ETA: The Agents of Geek podcast review will be delayed because they can't watch 520 until Saturday due to preemption...

Edited May 6, 2017 by tv echo

[Mellowyellow]

I love your reviews @tv echo! I track them each week because certain reviewers have certain preferences and it's interesting to see their reactions across the season.

The four dudes who review Arrow on youtube (The Good, The Bad and The Laurel) raged about Felicity's apology! I don't know if they watch Flash but it would be so funny to hear what they say about Barry! 

[leopardprint]

Is it Slanderent, @Mellowyellow? They think Barry is the villain of The Flash, lol! 

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, leopardprint said:

Is it Slanderent, @Mellowyellow? They think Barry is the villain of The Flash, lol! 

Yes that's them!!!! hehe they are way harsher than we are! I need to go and look up one of their Flash reviews! 

[leopardprint]

27 minutes ago, tv echo said:

The world has gone topsy-turvy!  The ComicBook reviewer loved 520 (see review posted on previous page) - and now the two romance authors who review Arrow for USA Today didn't like 520.  I'm not going to bother quoting them because I disagreed with a lot of what they said.  Basically, they thought the episode was boring and had too much dialogue and not enough action...

Wow, that was harsh, even if they do make some valid points. I wonder if it's because they are romance writers and this episode was basically right in their wheelhouse. Kind of like how some doctors/nurses and lawyers hate watching medical and legal dramas.  They also loved 5A so maybe I'm just not on the same page with them. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by leopardprint

[Chaser]

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I always find it odd when people blame the writing for LLs failure. I'll give them that for Lauiver because of the whole cheating thing but, let's be honest if SA/KC had the chemistry that SA/EBR had, most fans would have forgiven the history of cheating (probably).

The simple reality is that KC was horribly miscast. She cannot play, kind or warm or do action at all. She is better (I can't even say good) at playing bitchy characters, even then she's very limited. I mean seriously go back and watch S3 of SPN.

I'll never understand blaming the writing because there's not a single writer. So every writer just sucks at writing LL? Every director just sucks when it comes to getting KC to play the proper emotion? Every Producer and there's 4 (Berlanti, AJK (S1-2), MG and WM (S4-5)) somehow sucks at writing for and, coming up with stories for just 1 character and 1 actress?

I've done this exercise before, either at TWOP or here very early on. You can blame the writers for bad dialogue or plot wholes, blame The EPs for bad arcs, casting fails and changes in direction, blame the directors for bad Shots/camera techniques, but blame the actor when they can't freaking act.

If the writing calls for her to play drunk and she's dead sober that's an acting fail not a writing/directing fail. When the writing calls for her to be poisoned and she plays drunk, guess what that's an acting fail. When the writing calls for her to play warm and all she can manage is bitch, once again that's an acting fail (I could go on)

The writing on Arrow is not spectacular but, I'm tired of the blame the writers game for KCs (and only KCs) failures.  Every other person on this show fails to deliver the proper emotion in a scene and it's an acting fail. KC fails to properly deliver emotion and it's the writers or directors fault.

I think you also have to consider if some of those poor writing choices were a response to KC. S2 was awful for the character. Her screentime was reduced, she was completely disconnected from the other characters and A plot, she was handed a terrible addiction storyline. In S3 it was continued. She was still isolated from the main plots/trio, her BIG BC arc amounted to a few episodes. In S4, she was only taken out of the background to bring Sara back and to die. Her big return on S5 was highlighted by a punch from Felicity and brought on the BC replacement.

We have all listed numerous ways they could have included Laurel. Easy ways. They didn't, maybe because KC was the problem.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Chaser

[tv echo]

Agents of GEEK Podcast Episode 72
05/06/2017 Craig Wack & Tatiana Torres
http://agentsofgeekpodcast.com/wordpress/

-- Tatiana watched 520 twice "because it was amazing." Craig joked that it was because SA was shirtless. Tatiana responded that she doesn't just like episodes of Arrow because SA is shirtless, but that she likes episodes where Oliver & Felicity "make out." She also liked Diggle's "biceps... which are huge" when he held onto Oliver & Felicity. Craig mentioned the "bromance" between Curtis and Wild Dog. Tatiana added: "And New Canary was great. She was helpful... and talked about emotional stuff with Diggle. She's very helpful." Craig: "And she's sassy." Tatiana said that Dinah can also joke and hold her own with the guys, saying: "I have no desire for Katie Cassidy to come back." Craig: "This is not only New Canary. This is Improved Canary."

-- Craig noted that Lyla, by not keeping secrets from Dig, "did not get the memo about how a character on this show is supposed to act." Instead, she gave Diggle a folder of all she was doing at ARGUS. Tatiana said that Lyla was such an adult and so mature, and that she and Diggle talked about their feelings.

-- Although Tatiana appreciated that Oliver & Felicity finally talked to each other in this episode, she thought that probably sometime next season Oliver will again keep something secret from Felicity.

-- Craig thought that 520 was a "good little episode." He wondered if it felt a "little retconny." But Tatiana didn't think so. She thought it "justified" Felicity's having another boyfriend because it was clear that, at the end of the Olicity hookup, they each needed to figure stuff out.  Tatiana: "I know people who, like, when you're trying to distract yourself from something, you throw yourself into another relationship...  'Cop guy? When did she start dating cop guy?' So for this, it actually helps that for me. Plus, you know, let's be honest, if you're adults and you're friends, you know, in that close of a space, that sort of thing is bound to happen.... So pretending to go along this whole time as ex-fiances and they didn't have at least one hookup after being drunk would be more false than an island with magical powers and stuff."

-- Craig: "How rarely does it feel that we get these - just moments with Oliver and Felicity, like, interacting for more than one scene? I mean, usually you get, like, one scene a show where there's some sort of heart-to-heart, and they sorta pull each other off to the side and they kinda do their thing... And then they kinda go their separate ways. But this is the first time in awhile where it's been, like, 'wow Amell and Rickards are sharing the screen a lot in this episode"... by comparison. Which makes the show stronger. I mean, I know there are factions that are definitely, like, non-Olicity types. Um, but those people can burn in hell."  Tatiana: "For real... But even if you don't like Olicity as a romantic couple, clearly, Oliver and Felicity as a team-up - like when she's using her brain and he's using his brawn - is always fun. OG Team Arrow, you guys... When Dig had to save them, this was so OG Team Arrow. I loved it." Tatiana also thought it was "hilarious... how, as easy it is for everyone and their mom to get into the bunker, how like ridiculously hard it was to get out." Tatiana added: "I'm pretty sure that Merlyn knows, like, six entrances here."

-- Tatiana noted that this episode allowed the show to "kinda retcon the whole 'Ollie likes to kill' thing because Felicity's like, 'Stop that right now... That's not true.' Thank you, writer of episode 15 [sic]. No, I'm back and I'm here to tell you that is incorrect." Craig: "That is a load of malarky." Tatiana: "Just erase that from the canon. That's not true. Oliver does not really like to kill. He's just been through a lot of shit and has had to kill. And also has been through more shit after that. So I very much appreciated that." 

-- Tatiana: "Also his son. Poor William. Such a dummy. Like, 'Hello, my name is Matthew.' ... Clearly knows enough not to tell people his name is William. But then all Chase has to say is, 'oh, that was before you and your mom moved to Central City, right?' And he's like, oh yes, let me tell this person all my truths. What the f**k, William!"  Craig: "Don't talk to strangers." 

-- Tatiana said that there's still one thing she didn't understand. The whole episode was Felicity saying she backed Oliver's plays but he didn't back hers because he doesn't trust her, and now we know that Oliver does trust Felicity but is "just really bad at human emotions."  However, what Tatiana didn't understand was when Felicity told Oliver that she now gets it and understands why he didn't tell her about William. Tatiana was like, "Wait, what? Like, you literally in the hallway, like 15 seconds ago, were still on the, like, 'you don't trust me' kick. And then obviously you forgave him for not trusting you. But then I don't understand how all of a sudden that you're a hypocrite? No, you're right, Felicity. He doesn't tell you things. Um, but okay, like, whatever. Traumatic experience. Sure. I'll take it because you guys are holding hands. And then - and this is going to sound so cheesy - when she said, 'I think you need to find out who you are,' okay, that's really cool. But are you guys going to get back together? Like, what does that mean for the two of you? I need to know. " Tatiana said that she wasn't going to complain about it though, "if it gets her Olicity back." Tatiana also offered to drop off wine and Chinese food if it'll help get them back together: "Curtis is the audience."

-- Craig: "It was a good episode. And it was one of those rare episodes where, hey, everyone got something to do... and people weren't overwhelmingly grumpy, and the plot moved forward a little bit... and there was some tension in there. So... I was very good with that."

Edited May 7, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Arrow 5x20 Review: "Underneath" (Trust Me)
Just About Write  May 6, 2017 
http://www.itsjustaboutwrite.com/2017/05/arrow-5x20-review-underneath-trust-me.html

Quote

I feel like I was lied to by the Arrow producers this season. Our thematic thread is not, in fact, the idea of legacy. Instead, the thread that is tying this entire season together is the concept of trust — or, as "Underneath" proves, a lack thereof. Oliver and Felicity have struggled for the past year or so to really and truly trust one another. But the reality behind this lack of trust is tied to another important factor: communication....  Oliver has kept this thing buried within him for a while — this secret or half-truth or fear or whatever you'd like to call it — that Adrian Chase extracted, and in keeping some parts of his life hidden, he's built up walls between himself and the people closest to him. That's never more evident than in his recent relationship with Felicity. He gives her half-truths about why he doesn't want her involved in Helix, but this is Felicity Smoak: she deserves the whole truth and nothing but the truth (so help her God).
*  *  *
Are we sure Adrian Chase isn't secretly an Olicity shipper? Because in trapping Oliver and Felicity in the bunker, he actually forced them to stop running away from each other and the difficult conversations they know they need to have. You all know how I've felt about Olicity over the past year or so, right? If we stick with the metaphor of "shipping" here, I would say that I've been in a lifeboat — still tethered to the ship, but also ready to cut free and circle around it. The issues that I have with the ship are primarily issues with the show's writers, who decided to throw us that absurd baby mama drama for the sake of plot and nothing more. In doing so, they made Oliver intensely unlikable and made the Olicity ship — in a lot of ways — toxic. I could not support Felicity running back to Oliver, and I couldn't support Oliver lying to Felicity. So I was left in limbo. Arrow has tried recently to slowly build back up the pairing, but "Underneath" needed to happen before I could make up my mind as to whether or not this ship made sense anymore. The writers needed to hit the pause button on so many of their other storylines in order to give focus to the giant elephant in the room that has not yet been addressed.
*  *  *
And the worst part is, Felicity can only make up reasons as to why that is true. Because Oliver won't communicate his real reasoning to her. So she's left to assume that he doesn't trust her judgement and therefore doesn't trust her anymore. It's a gut punch and it's something that will be resolved at the end of the episode, which I'm glad for. I think a huge part of why I haven't been aboard Team Olicity recently is because there's this valley between them that they keep pretending doesn't exist. In trying to ignore it, the valley has only grown wider and deeper. If not for "Underneath," I can assume they would have never (or at least not as succinctly and honestly) resolved these deep issues between them.
*  *  *
In fact, Felicity believes Oliver doesn't trust anyone. "I don't know why," she says. "Maybe if I knew why, things would be different." Hoo-boy, is that an important line. Felicity doesn't need to know every deep, dark secret or thought Oliver has. She doesn't need him to apologize for lying about William. She doesn't need another "I'm sorry" — she needs the reason why he lied in the first place. And until he can tell her that, she can't know whether she's the problem or whether the problem is entirely unrelated to her. And because Oliver doesn't know why he lied either, Felicity is left to conclude that it does have to do with her. She has to conclude that he doesn't trust her.
*  *  *
In the flashbacks, Felicity apologizes to Oliver for walking away from him all those months ago when she should have stayed and discussed things with him. The truth though is, I don't think Felicity has anything to apologize for. Maybe it's be being a hardcore Felicity Smoak fan, but if you're in a relationship in which you're being lied to and feel disrespected, it's okay to walk — to break things off or to cool down. Better for her to have walked. in my opinion, than stayed and have been swayed by Oliver's promises that things would be different next time. But I can see why Felicity feels bad. She never communicated with Oliver — instead of staying to hash things out, she walked away and not telling him anything more on the matter, and (I assume) refusing to talk about it afterward didn't help the situation.

In the present-day, Felicity apologizes to Oliver for judging him with the whole William thing (again, this resolution is weeeeeeak, but sure, show. I'll bite) because after being willing to do whatever it took to bring down Chase, Felicity somehow got a tiny glimpse into what it must have been like to be Oliver. Again, I really don't buy this whole resolution because I'm still a little salty at the writers for their craptastic storyline in the first place, but Felicity being empathetic and realizing she's capable of darkness is actually a pretty good step, character-wise, for her to take.
*  *  *
It's probably one of my favorite things to happen in the Oliver/Felicity relationship. This time, Felicity is hitting pause not because of mistrust or miscommunication. She's hitting it because she cannot be in a relationship with someone who doesn't know who he is. She can only take him so far — can only preach the truth to him so many times. It's one thing to tell the person you care about what you know to be true about them; it's another to have them believe it.
*  *  *
William is approached by Chase at the end of the episode and it literally takes about two seconds for William to admit that he's in the witness protection program. Seriously, this kid.

Edited May 7, 2017 by tv echo

[BunsenBurner]

I called for Laurel to be replaced from the pilot. She was miscast couldn't act and it was obvious to me. That was before Felicity Smoak was introduced for her one off.

Edited May 7, 2017 by BunsenBurner
My reason had nothing to do with Felicity Smoak.

[Morrigan2575]

39 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

I called for Laurel to be replaced from the pilot. She was miscast couldn't act and it was obvious to me. That was before Felicity Smoak was introduced for her one off.

If you believe Canadagraphs so did Berlanti and Company. They wanted to either recast the character or eliminate the character altogether. Unfortunately they were overruled by someone at the network (CBS or WB).

[Primal Slayer]

I could've gone for Adrianne Palicki in the role but if not her, I'm glad we got Katie. 

[Starfish35]

Ever since Amy Gumenick said she auditioned for the Laurel role, I've wished that she had gotten it.  

Actually, she and KC should just have switched roles.

ETA:  I've wondered sometimes how someone like Aly Michalka might have been.  I enjoyed her on what I saw of Hellcats.  But I don't know.  Adrianne - I loved Adrianne as Mockingbird.  But she's 5' 11", almost as tall as SA.  That doesn't bother me, but I don't know that they would have gone for that.  *shrugs*

Edited May 7, 2017 by Starfish35

[Primal Slayer]

They probably wouldn't have since they would probably think it would emasculate SA but she is the perfect combo of KC/CL.

[Starfish35]

I don't see anything of KC in AP, but I guess mileage varies.  

[leopardprint]

Perhaps the actress from Nikita that was not Nikita? Lindsey Fonnseca

Edited May 7, 2017 by leopardprint
Google is my friend.

[Starfish35]

I only know her as Peggy's friend Angie from Agent Carter.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Starfish35

[Morrigan2575]

I don't have a good impression of Lindsey Fonseca from either show. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[theOAfc]

On 6/5/2017 at 1:57 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

The simple reality is that KC was horribly miscast. She cannot play, kind or warm or do action at all. She is better (I can't even say good) at playing bitchy characters, even then she's very limited.

I kinda agree here. Its true that from the start the writing was extra unfair to her character,with her only being there as Oliver's love endgame,similar to how Iris is written in the flash. Only difference is that she was also cold and harsh to Oliver, so immediately she gained hate from plenty of fans(especially male fans). Heres the thing though,if someone else was playing Laurel,i think not so many people would have disliked her. I honestly think Katie was a huge miscast by all means. She can play the fun villain of the week but thats it when it comes to acting,at least from what ive seen. 

Not gonna lie,EBR is not much of a greater actress,but EMily is bringing honesty to her character and i think her performance as Felicity is much more unique than Katies as Laurel has ever been(which is why Emily started the whole fun IT sidekick in the Berlantiverse). Katie is the type of actress that should always play a specific type of  role and i think if she embraces that she will actually gain a bigger following. 

Robert Knepper is an example of someone who cant play the heroic role at all. He always plays the same type of character but thats cool cause he is good at it.

EBR on the other hand is probably better at the heroic roles than playing the villains. From the little ive seen in 4x11, she cant sell the bitchy  role much ,because she over tries and it feels too fake.

While the writing of the show is a mess and while Felicity is written as bad as most main characters(even more at times cause unfortunately she has to take the big hit being the CW lead's main love interest)i think that Emily is doing a somehow decent job at overshadowing the really bad writing and keeping me interested. At least most times(she needs to work on her crying,but thats for another convo).

The reason im making the comparison between the actresses is because i dont think that the toxic background of Lauriver was what deemed its failure. I honestly think its the lack of chemistry between the two actors who were awkward and wooden for most part of their scenes lacking the emotion it needed throughout the show. If the actors had a lot of chemistry,they would sell a love/hate type of dynamic,which is interesting for many viewers. So in my opinion, the relationship background of Lauriver simply made it easier to let go of a dynamic that lacked chemistry from start.

And i think Amell isnt pretty good at selling romantic dynamics either,at least based on what ive seen in the show. I have only liked his chemistry with very few actresses.

Edited May 7, 2017 by theOAfc

[Primal Slayer]

I think if they had started the characters off on another foot, I think Katie/Amell would've been fine, their chemistry in the 100th episode was great to me and the best it had ever been. But he held back to much and she had to much hate (realistic aLas it was). But if they'd had kept Tommy and just moved Laurel/Tommy full time, everything would've been golden.

[Starfish35]

I agree with what @Morrigan2575 and others have said about KC's acting.  I think she's a terrible actress.  That's not to say that there hasn't been the occasional scene with her that I thought worked, but from day it was obvious to me that she was the cast weak link. I had hopes into season two that she might get better, but no.

That said, when I say there were problems with the background setup, I'm not just talking about Lauriver.  KC's casting will always be #1 on my list of mistakes, but I don't think it was the only problem.  While I haven't read the comics, my impression of Black Canary is that she's a very down to earth kind of girl.  She's a girl that rebuilds her own motorcycles, and seems to love getting in a fight.  I see her more at home in a tank top, cut offs, and motorcycle boots than in a power suit, and I think she'd probably enjoy a good bar brawl better than a courtroom.  While I know there's always room for re-interpretation, I think making Laurel an untrained Rachel Dawes-wannabe went too far away from what the character was. 

I do agree that if the actress had connected with the audience, that probably wouldn't have mattered that much.  But I still do think it was an issue.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I think making Laurel an untrained Rachel Dawes-wannabe went too far away from what the character was. 

More like an untrained Rachel Dawes who was herself, untrained! Yeah, yeah, it's been years, but it still frosts my cookies, how I was supposed to accept Rachel Dawes as an ADA in Batman Begins, when age-wise, that twat was supposed to be finishing college or starting law school when Bruce was thinking about killing the man who'd murdered his parents, and let me just leave it there, before I lose my shit and go ranting and wailing off on what a judgmental, none of her bidnez harpy she was when she slapped Bruce and drove to where Carmine was, and made me want to reach to the movie screen/my teevee (when I got it on bluray) to snatch her bald.

[statsgirl]

29 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

While I haven't read the comics, my impression of Black Canary is that she's a very down to earth kind of girl.  She's a girl that rebuilds her own motorcycles, and seems to love getting in a fight.  I see her more at home in a tank top, cut offs, and motorcycle boots than in a power suit, and I think she'd probably enjoy a good bar brawl better than a courtroom.  While I know there's always room for re-interpretation, I think making Laurel an untrained Rachel Dawes-wannabe went too far away from what the character was.

If they had hired Caity Lotz for the role initially, do you think that you could have got past the toxic back-story with Oliver?

[Starfish35]

16 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

If they had hired Caity Lotz for the role initially, do you think that you could have got past the toxic back-story with Oliver?

I don't know.  Maybe.  But it's hard to imagine CL playing Laurel the defense attorney.  Laurel the florist who rebuilds motorcycles and teaches kids martial arts in her spare time?  Yeah maybe.   

Truthfully, I've never really re-cast Laurel with CL.  I don't know why.  I guess CL is just Sara for me. 

If they had cast EBR in the Laurel role, would the toxic backstory with Oliver still have been an issue?   

I actually could see EBR playing a version of Laurel, although I still would have preferred it not be the Rachel Dawes-ified version.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Starfish35

[LeighAn]

18 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

If they had hired Caity Lotz for the role initially, do you think that you could have got past the toxic back-story with Oliver?

Butting in but personally I don't think Caity could have made Lauriver more successful if she'd been cast as Laurel mainly because I think her chemistry with Stephen sucks as much as Katies. But that's my opinion.

But on this point I do think had they cast someone with the ability to have the same or better chemistry as Emily has with Stephen the sister cheating set up could have been overlooked/accepted. It's not the worst set up a tv shows done with their A couple. Look at Chuck and Blair, Clexa (actually don't know the characters names) or Damon and Elena- couples with acknowledged toxic stories by any comparison to a healthy relationship and yet they have huge fan followings. 

So I don't think it's just the story that screwed Katie and Stephen and by extension Lauriver. It's absolutely lack of chemistry and acting. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by LeighAn

[Starfish35]

I think CL and SA have good chemistry.  But as much as I love her as Sara I'm not sure she would have been my first choice for Laurel.  

[Starfish35]

My list of issues with Laurel goes like this:

1. Casting.  Bad actress, bad chemistry, etc.
2. No martial arts training.  Laurel should have had martial arts skills already built into her backstory.
3. Making her a lawyer.  Blatant Rachel Dawes rip-off, and doesn't fit with the character.
4. Toxic backstory.  It wouldn't even have to be changed much - just say he was the irresponsible playboy who got her sister killed.  But leave out them having a prior romantic relationship.

[wonderwall]

17 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

My list of issues with Laurel goes like this:

1. Casting.  Bad actress, bad chemistry, etc.
2. No martial arts training.  Laurel should have had martial arts skills already built into her backstory.
3. Making her a lawyer.  Blatant Rachel Dawes rip-off, and doesn't fit with the character.
4. Toxic backstory.  It wouldn't even have to be changed much - just say he was the irresponsible playboy who got her sister killed.  But leave out them having a prior romantic relationship.

I'd also add:

• The writers never knew what to do with her and threw every kind of storyline at her but it never stuck
• She flip flopped a LOT on everything
• She wasn't given a valid motivation to fight. She flip flopped on this too. One day it was to avenge her sister, then it was because it lit a fire in her... it was a mess
• KCs head canons ruined how she acted certain scenes (Like her being flirty with Oliver just after Oliver/Felicity broke up - fuck off Laurel)
• Never introducing the character to the team more gracefully. Instead she was just in the center of everything without earning it
• Basically never letting her earn anything and just giving the character everything
• Showing instead of telling when it came to LL

Edited May 7, 2017 by wonderwall

[Starfish35]

I guess I should have said issues with how Laurel was set up.  Because yes, I agree, there were a multitude of issues with the character, moving past the starting point.