Past Seasons Talk: The Tribe Has Spoken

[cherrypj]

Geez, I can't wait to watch Cook Island.

 

I'm also looking forward to the Philippines, if only for Lisa Whelchel (we've been on a Facts of Life kick lately; she's the best).

Edited May 22, 2015 by cherrypj

[vb68]

 

And Parvati is way more appealing in retrospect.  Still kind of obnoxious if it's contained within that season.

 

 

It is so interesting with Parvati.  Just from that one season, you wouldn't have any clue that she became so associated with the show and how important she became to the overall franchise.   With the way the show has evolved  into  big characters getting second chances and so many all-star seasons in one way or another, she was kinda the linchpin in all of that.  Sure they did ASS before that, but she showed that someone who was OK if somewhat underwhelming in one season can learn from it and come back as an absolute boss.   I would say now she's in the top three or four people who have extended the life of the show.  No joke.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

I'm one that actually wouldn't mind bringing Dreamz and Rocky back, just to see if they've changed at all. 

I also like Fiji more than many,  because the Have-nots ended up just annihilating the Haves in the end.  I liked Earl a lot as a winner and liked Yau-Man and (sadly screwed over by a stupid twist) Michelle.  I wouldn't object to Dreamz for just the reason you gave - he's had time to grow up, possibly.  But ROCKY - oh, HELL to the no.  He's as bad as Colton to me.  The bullying of Anthony was just shocking and depressing, all the more so since Probst just DID NOT GET IT and was asking Anthony at Tribal if he felt he had "learned" something from the bullying.  Edgardo Mookie and Lisi were equally awful, but as Haves they got it in the teeth in the end, in an epic way that set the standard for all future blindsides.  But fucking Rocky!  got away with being an unspeakable asshole, and I've never been able to figure out why.

Edited May 22, 2015 by ratgirlagogo

[choclatechip45]

I'm not a huge fan of Cook Islands or Fiji. I found both just filled with unlikeable/boring people with no one to root for. The only person I liked during Cook Islands was Ozzy and that was because he was hot. The only person I liked during Fiji was Michelle. The Rocky/Anthony bullying I thought was very uncomfortable to watch. I've never found the appeal of Yul, Yau-Man and Penner. I find the first two boring and I find Penner annoying.

[kikaha]

 I would say now she's (Parvati) in the top three or four people who have extended the life of the show.  No joke.

 

Real good point IMO.  Let me guess a few others:  Boston Rob, Sandra, Russell. 

[enlightenedbum]

I'd say the people who really changed the game are:

 

Hatch, obviously.  His model basically dictates Survivor 1-4, plus 5 pre-coconut chop.

Some combination of Boston Rob, Kathy, and Cesternino for developing a game around the bottom of the pecking order ganging up on the dominant people before they get to a majority.  I think it's mostly Cesternino, personally.  This model dictates seasons 5 (post-coconut chop), 6, 7, 9, and 12 (Cirie meddling with boot orders) and Boston Rob plays around it in 8 by not having a traditional alliance structure but instead a number of parallel deals.  Season 10 was weird because of the Koror dominance and 11 had some dumb players who let Steph basically play a pre-coconut chop game.

Yul showed how to play with immunity idols and the Earlliance showed how to play around them.  Which basically governedt 15/16/17, though Sugar's general unpredictability not so much.

Coach demonstrated the play relentlessly to the camera as a ridiculous character model.  And Coach spawned Russell, Phillip, and a bunch of other people.

 

And basically nobody's really revolutionized the game since Tocantins.  Which is a problem for the show, I think.

[kikaha]

enlightened one: I was thinking more of Survivor's popularity, and which players especially drove public interest forward.  Totally agree that Hatch kind of invented, or found, strategy. 

[choclatechip45]

I've always thought if Cirie would have pulled out the win in Exile or Micronesia she would have been the most popular winner ever up to that point.

[kikaha]

chocolatechip -- and in Micronesia she had what seems like unfathomable bad luck, when Survivor went with F2 instead of F3.  Conspiracy theorists: did Survivor plan on F2 from the start of that season, or did the showrunners ad lib it as they neared the end? 

[LadyChatts]

chocolatechip -- and in Micronesia she had what seems like unfathomable bad luck, when Survivor went with F2 instead of F3.  Conspiracy theorists: did Survivor plan on F2 from the start of that season, or did the showrunners ad lib it as they neared the end? 

 

Because Kathy quit, and the 2 medevacs that season (including James in the jury), I think they ended up with a final 2 because of that.  Otherwise I believe it was intended to be a final 3.  

 

I've always thought if Cirie would have pulled out the win in Exile or Micronesia she would have been the most popular winner ever up to that point.

 

 

Especially Panama!  Though Cirie was a big part of why I liked Micronesia, what I didn't like was at the end where she acted like she was owed the million.  I know it was still very fresh in her mind, to be that close again, so I tried keeping that in perspective.  But it was that FTC where she lost me as a fan.

Edited May 23, 2015 by LadyChatts

[SVNBob]

 enlightenedbum and kihaha, it looks to me that you two are actually talking about two different things.  One is talking about the game of Survivor, and the other about the show of Survivor.  Which is something I hadn't really thought about before, but is an interesting line of thought.  They're related in that one cannot truly exist without the other, and that they began the same, but they have evolved along different paths due to different people.

 

Hatch was important to both.  Without him, the game would have too simplistic and died, and the show soon after.  Plus a lot of us back in the day were actively rooting against him...right up until the final moments.  He was the original "love-to-hate" Survivor.  He accidentally showed there was room for characters in the show of Survivor while still playing the game of Survivor.

 

For the evolutions to the game, I tend to agree with the bum's list on strategists; Cesternino, Boston Rob, Cirie, and Yul.  I would also add Cao Boi, as he was the one that first dreamed up (literally, according to him) the plan for vote-splitting to neutralize the HII, aka Plan Voodoo.  Tony might also be an addition to the list for his "bag of tricks".

 

Coach and Sugar are people that evolved the show.  They popularized the idea that one could become famous (or infamous) by playing a character on Survivor, aka "being remembered".  Although in truth, the seeds of that go back to the beginnings with Hatch, Rudy, Colby, and Jerri.  They weren't really playing characters, but they became stereotyped as such and gained fame for it.  Everyone on ASS (which included the aforementioned 4), minus Amber, was remembered for who they were and how they played the game.  

 

It took a while for people to try to intentionally "force" themselves into being remembered, not by playing the game, but by playing the audience.  Sugar (the actress, Sugar) is the best example.  Coach is also good, but I don't think he was doing it as intentionally as she was.  At least not the first time.  By attempt 3, Coach was enforcing the character.  Phillip was also on the same path; unintentional character the first time, deliberate the second time.  Many repeat players without game play skills also go down this road.

 

In addition to Hatch, there's a couple people I'd say we're important to both game and show.  Boston Rob (love or hate him) became a different character in each game he played, while still playing smart and hard as hell every single time (even in RI when he had the easiest time).  Parvati demonstrated in her second showing that she was thinking of strategy beyond what her flirty exterior showed, but still used that flirtation and camera-appeal as part of it.

[choclatechip45]

 

Especially Panama!  Though Cirie was a big part of why I liked Micronesia, what I didn't like was at the end where she acted like she was owed the million.  I know it was still very fresh in her mind, to be that close again, so I tried keeping that in perspective.  But it was that FTC where she lost me as a fan.

Yeah, it wasn't a good look for her. I've always given her a break for that because it was less than 24 hours and she looked really depressed in her ponderosa video.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I'd like to write a bit of a defense for Samoa and Russell too, one of my top 5 favourites.

 

Foa Foa was incredibly impressive.  The other tribe had far larger numbers, and even a rocket scientist, but they couldn't get it together and keep an alliance strong for the life of them.  And from what I remember, they won challenge after challenge while Foa Foa lost, but because the "Foa Foa Four" kept loyal after the merge, they  remained a strong alliance from beginning to end.  Even though Russell did bully his tribe and keep them incredibly paranoid, those four remained 'loyal' from start to finish - four incredibly different people - oil company owner Russell, quiet Natalie in medical sales, the doctor Mitch, and law student (?) Jaison.  Russell and the Foa Foa also somehow did a great job of keeping the 'other alliance' fractured and trying to win members of the Foa Foa over.  By the end of the season, those 4 seemed so emotionally and physically demolished, but they stuck it out and won the game in the end.  I think that is a rare sight to see in Survivor.  

 

"Love him or hate him" I heard so much about Russell before I even saw his season and the season did not disappoint.  I know his methods are not popular, but I absolutely love to watch him - not only as a character but as a player of the game.  He was so great at so many aspects of the game - forming an alliance, keeping it strong, keeping it loyal, and knocking out huge competitors.  Finding and using immunity idols.    He was so good up until the end.  His 'fatal flaw' (talk about Shakespearean) his complete lack of social game lost it for him in the end.  I think the whole thing is fascinating, and the tale of Foa Foa practically cinematic.  I know a lot of people hate Russell but he kept his word with Natalie right until the end of the game - to his detriment.  

 

In the same way I found Rodney so entertaining this season - it's not that I think I'd be friends with Rodney and Russell in real life, or something - it's that I find them so entertaining to watch on screen, as characters - and that's all I want from television. 

Edited May 23, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[enlightenedbum]

Easy to remain loyal to a guy you will beat 100% of the time and has no idea that you'll beat him.

[peachmangosteen]

I think Russell is one of the worst players ever, but I loved Samoa. Natalie beating him is one of my fave Survivor endings. 

Edited May 23, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[truelovekiss]

I despised Tyson after his treatment of Sierra in Tocantins, but thawed a little during HvV and the first half of BvW. But his behavior toward Katie after she pulled the white rock was disgusting and brought my hatred back in full force. He played a decent, textbook game that season, but I just can't be that impressed after playing two of the worst games of all time.

I agree. I've never been one to clutch my pearls at the lying, cheating and stealing in the game (although I do admire the castaways that try not to do so more than necessary or even at all) but there is a difference between doing what you have to and just being a jerk for no reason, other than it's just who you are. Tyson is a huge jerk. He's a decent player, but a huge jerk. And much like the hot:crazy scale from How I Met Your Mother, the jerk factor should at least correlate to how good of a player he was. It didn't, in my opinion. He was obnoxious, arrogant and a sore winner.

[truelovekiss]

I think Russell is one of the worst players ever, but I loved Samoa. Natalie beating him is one of my fave Survivor endings.

The best was that he continued his "dumb ass girls alliance" the next time he played (almost, anyway, because Danielle didn't get to the end. I don't remember why, though) and lost again. And then tried it for the third time, and didn't even make it that far. When asked about it, he decided the game was flawed, not the strategy he tried three times.

[peachmangosteen]

When asked about it, he decided the game was flawed, not the strategy he tried three times.

 

Never not funny! 

 

If the edit in Samoa hadn't tried to paint Russell as something other than a bad player, then Samoa would've been amazing. Imagine the edit allowing us to see the truth, that Russell sucked and would never win and that Natalie was killing the social game to protect him. It would have been glorious.

Edited May 23, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[LadyChatts]

I didn't think Russell was a bad player his first time out.  In fact, I enjoyed him.  His social game completely sucked and it seemed to be lost on him that many of his actions and attitudes were going to come back to bite him.  However, he lost me during HvsV when his strategy was exactly the same.  And he still didn't seem to get it.  I could almost give him a pass, because no one had seen his season yet (though IIRC some contestants were tipped off), and he seemed to legitimately think he won.  So why not try it a second time if you think it worked the first time?  Well, it wasn't going to work a second time because he was playing with former players.  Not everyone learns from their previous time(s), but some people come back a little sharper, and it is harder to fool.  RI he deserved what he got.  I think Brandon and Willie's meltdowns during Caramoan and BB probably ensured we won't be seeing anyone from the Hantz gene pool anytime soon. 

 

Samoa was one of those seasons that I find forgettable.  Don't hate it, but don't love it, so it just sits in the middle for me.

Edited May 23, 2015 by LadyChatts

[truelovekiss]

Moved from Season 31 voting

Sugar's pre game HvV interview http://www.realityblurred.com/realitytv/2010/02/survivor-heroes-vs-villains-jessica_sugar_kiper/

When Sugar was on Celebrity Rehab http://www.realityblurred.com/realitytv/2011/07/survivor-heroes-vs-villains-sugar-suicide-attempt-details/

I can't believe I missed all that! Her drug history is definitely sad, but I can't say that I'm surprised. From the beginning she seemed like a pretty troubled girl. I hope she's doing better

[choclatechip45]

 

I can't believe I missed all that! Her drug history is definitely sad, but I can't say that I'm surprised. From the beginning she seemed like a pretty troubled girl. I hope she's doing better

Apparently the suicide attempt was the night Tyson was voted out.

[enlightenedbum]

The best was that he continued his "dumb ass girls alliance" the next time he played (almost, anyway, because Danielle didn't get to the end. I don't remember why, though) and lost again. And then tried it for the third time, and didn't even make it that far. When asked about it, he decided the game was flawed, not the strategy he tried three times.

Danielle got voted out because Russell is a paranoid nutbar who decided (correctly) that Parvati was running the game and he had to knock out her other ally so she'd have to stick with him instead of... her sticking with him because she'd beat him and knew she couldn't win any other way due to the prior winner stigma and various people on the jury not liking her.  At the risk of putting a Hero in front of a majority Heroes jury that HATED him.  He's kind of stupid and had no read on that jury at ALL.

 

And he couldn't go after Parvati herself because as Courtney said ""And she has, like, no problem flirting with... clearly... anything that walks.""

[truelovekiss]

Danielle got voted out because Russell is a paranoid nutbar who decided (correctly) that Parvati was running the game and he had to knock out her other ally so she'd have to stick with him instead of... her sticking with him because she'd beat him and knew she couldn't win any other way due to the prior winner stigma and various people on the jury not liking her. At the risk of putting a Hero in front of a majority Heroes jury that HATED him. He's kind of stupid and had no read on that jury at ALL.

And he couldn't go after Parvati herself because as Courtney said ""And she has, like, no problem flirting with... clearly... anything that walks.""

Thank you for the reminder! It all came back haha :) For as much hype as he receives, Russell really wasn't very good at the social game. He found idols, and he convinced/bullied a couple of girls into being staunchly loyal to him. Parvati knew his game, and "went along" with it, but was actually thinking circles around him. I'm not a huge Parvati fan, and I think she gets a lot of hype (much of it is deserved, but she's not the genius some people make her out to be) but she played him for a fool and I loved it. I loved it even more that Sandra had his number from the beginning, wanted him out, and everyone was too stupid to listen.

And can I just add, Courtney was arguably the funniest survivor ever.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Even the biggest Russell fans, such as myself, would never claim he is good at the social game :)

 

I was thinking I'd like to see another All-Stars type game..... now we have Tony from Cagayan who could go up against the likes of Parvati, Kim, Yul ---  are Kim and Yul the type of people who just say no when they're asked back, or are they not just asked back?  

 

I'm actually a huge fan of Aras from Panama -- I thought he was adorable.  He was my favourite player that season, I liked him more than Cirie and Shane even.  Unfortunately his second ride in BvW was pretty sucky.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[truelovekiss]

Even the biggest Russell fans, such as myself, would never claim he is good at the social game :)

I was thinking I'd like to see another All-Stars type game..... now we have Tony from Cagayan who could go up against the likes of Parvati, Kim, Yul --- are Kim and Yul the type of people who just say no when they're asked back, or are they not just asked back?

I'm actually a huge fan of Aras from Panama -- I thought he was adorable. He was my favourite player that season, I liked him more than Cirie and Shane even. Unfortunately his second ride in BvW was pretty sucky.

I just did some googling and Kim had a baby last year, so I highly doubt we'll see her on the show again. I know plenty of people do go on the show with kids and babies, but she doesn't seem like someone who is addicted to the game like some of the others are. I remember reading (I could be wrong, so don't hold me to it!) that she got divorced shortly before going on Survivor.

I also found Yul Kwon has two small children, and after looking at his Wikipedia page, it looks like he has had a pretty successful career, before and after survivor. He has worked for the government, and now works for Facebook corporate.

I think the three main categories of people that go on Survivor are A) people who love the game, and would happily drop everything to play, time and again (ie Russell, Boston Rob, Rupert, etc) B) people in it for fun/adventure/money and C) people who are going through some serious shit, and are looking to test themselves and learn something about their character. The type A's will go on Survivor as many times as they can. The B's and C's are more likely to say once is enough, I got what I needed from it and check it off the bucket lest. Plenty of them will go again if they have a chance (like Kat or Courtney) but I think a lot would turn it down.

If I'm right about Kim and the divorce thing, I think it's safe to say she was option C. I don't know much about Yul's personal life before Survivor, but I'm going to say he's a B. I doubt either of them would seriously consider going back.

[choclatechip45]

I just did some googling and Kim had a baby last year, so I highly doubt we'll see her on the show again. I know plenty of people do go on the show with kids and babies, but she doesn't seem like someone who is addicted to the game like some of the others are. I remember reading (I could be wrong, so don't hold me to it!) that she got divorced shortly before going on Survivor.

I also found Yul Kwon has two small children, and after looking at his Wikipedia page, it looks like he has had a pretty successful career, before and after survivor. He has worked for the government, and now works for Facebook corporate.

I think the three main categories of people that go on Survivor are A) people who love the game, and would happily drop everything to play, time and again (ie Russell, Boston Rob, Rupert, etc) B) people in it for fun/adventure/money and C) people who are going through some serious shit, and are looking to test themselves and learn something about their character. The type A's will go on Survivor as many times as they can. The B's and C's are more likely to say once is enough, I got what I needed from it and check it off the bucket lest. Plenty of them will go again if they have a chance (like Kat or Courtney) but I think a lot would turn it down.

If I'm right about Kim and the divorce thing, I think it's safe to say she was option C. I don't know much about Yul's personal life before Survivor, but I'm going to say he's a B. I doubt either of them would seriously consider going back.

Kim is also currently pregnant and she is co hosting a morning show. I know she's joked on Rhap that she'll never be asked back, but she doesn't like to boost herself up as an awesome survivor player. She was divorced it was in her Cbs bio. I remember Yul said he wasn't sure if wanted to do Survivor originally. I remember reading somewhere that he met his wife through Brad who was on his tribe. Edited May 24, 2015 by choclatechip45

[kikaha]

 

If the edit in Samoa hadn't tried to paint Russell as something other than a bad player, then Samoa would've been amazing. Imagine the edit allowing us to see the truth, that Russell sucked and would never win and that Natalie was killing the social game to protect him. It would have been glorious.

 

In Russell's first season, the majority alliance was trying to boot him the entire second half of the game.  He was public enemy #1 for them.  Natalie made one great move right after merge.  Other than that, she didn't protect Russell from anyone.  Other way around.  He protected her, plus Mick and Jaison, from a 7 to 4 deficit, brought all of them to F5, and three of them to F3.  I for one don't believe the edit inflated his role, or shortchanged Natalie's. 

 

I often hear people call Russell a goat.  I believe that's wrong.  Others carry goats along, even though they could boot them at any time.  No one carried Russell.  He carried them.  The people in his alliance depended on his out-of-the-box thinking to get to the end.  That was true in Samoa, and it was even true of Parvati in HvV.  She freely admits it: when asked why she aligned with him, she said everyone was targeting her from the start, and he was the only person willing to work with her. 

 

Now Parv played a fantastic game there, and IMO should have won.  But without Russell, she was likely the first or second boot.  In a similar way way, I believe without Russell, his alliance in Samoa would have faced the same fate as the NC3 (plus Shirin) did this season.  Pagong. 

 

 

Tyson is a huge jerk.

 

That's how I felt after his first season.  His second season, he seemed more like the village idiot, letting Russell dupe him and throw the entire season on its head.  His third season, I guess an epiphany lit up inside him: he played great, ran the season, and brought his asshole-seeming-features into check. 

 

I heard a broadcast Tyson did on RHAP, and found him funny, enjoyable, insightful, with a pretty dry wit -- someone I would enjoy talking with. 

 

 

I highly doubt we'll see her (Kim) on the show again.

 

Sadly, that is my sense, too, especially since as chocolatechip pointed out Kim has another baby on the way.  Hope I'm wrong, and she plays again, in the all-stars' all-stars season. 

[enlightenedbum]

Yul was a recruit, and an example of the good side of recruiting. You rarely get that guy on Survivor.  You normally get That Guy, if you understand my meaning.

 

 

Now Parv played a fantastic game there, and IMO should have won.  But without Russell, she was likely the first or second boot.  In a similar way way, I believe without Russell, his alliance in Samoa would have faced the same fate as the NC3 (plus Shirin) did this season.  Pagong.

 

Galu was waiting to fracture and Natalie was the one that did it.  Shambo would have flipped regardless to make it a 5-5 tie as long as someone noticed she hated Laura (everyone on Samoa knew she hated Laura).  Someone from Foa Foa would have found the idol eventually (after three clues, they basically just give you a video of them hiding it... and did this explicitly for one of Russell's) and then it's just if they can figure out where Galu was aiming the vote.  Since Galu was not made of geniuses and Natalie had a killer social game, I bet they could have.

 

As for HvV: if Tyson's not a moron and votes himself out of the game, then Russell is booted in I think 14th.  Then Parvati is booted when they lose that next immunity challenge.  With Rob, they probably win the last one, if not they boot Danielle.  I'd guess F3 is Sandra, Courtney, and whichever of Rob/Tyson successfully convinces those two to vote the other out.

 

Sandra still wins though, because Sandra is really good at this.

 

As it actually happened, Parvati essentially made her entire team immune without Russell having a clue to secure the necessary majority.  She badly outplayed the little troll (again, TM Courtney).  But misread just how much the jury hated him.  She had an idea, but tied herself too closely to him by saying she controlled him.

Edited May 24, 2015 by enlightenedbum

[kikaha]

enlightenedbum, I disagree with basically every conclusion you made in your last post.   But most of all, that Boston Rob would lose to Sandra.  If Rob had reached the final, he'd have made sure he got there with people he would beat.  The only reason he didn't do that in AS was someone named Amber.  And even though he lost the title to her, in doing so he achieved what I think is the most remarkable Survivor accomplishment ever. 

 

But all this is just speculation.  Tyson DID buy Russell's pitch.  An act of Survivor genius on Russell's part, that completely changed the outcome of HvV.  It left the most powerful cast in Survivor history speechless, and IMO belongs in the Survivor Hall of Fame as one of the three best TCs ever.  (The TC in Philippines where Malcolm and Abi pulled out their idols also should have a place there.) 

[enlightenedbum]

But if you read anything about that tribal council, the aired version was completely fabricated.  It really was just Tyson getting greedy and wanting Parvati out first for NO reason and Russell had nothing to do with it.

[kikaha]

But if you read anything about that tribal council, the aired version was completely fabricated.  It really was just Tyson getting greedy and wanting Parvati out first for NO reason and Russell had nothing to do with it.

 

Can you refer me to any articles, interviews, etc about that? 

[enlightenedbum]

http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/the-fien-print/posts/hitfix-interview-tyson-apostol-explains-his-survivor-heroes-vs-villains-vote

 

There you go.  Tyson is dumb, basically.

[kikaha]

enlightened, thanks for the link.  My reaction is that Tyson was engaging in (heavily) revisionist history. 

 

His explanation is that Russell, knowing he would go home, thought he was nobly sacrificing himself to save Parvati. 

 

Cough.  Acchhxxx. 

 

That goes against everything I've seen about Russell.  It also goes against what we saw on the screen, and what Tyson himself said in confessionals as these events were playing out. 

 

First, Russell knew Rob's real target was Parvati.  He sniffed that out when Rob spoke with him after the IC.  Contrary to Tyson's story, Russell didn't make a last-ditch 'noble' decision to sacrifice himself.  He planned on giving Parvati the idol, even before he spoke with Tyson. He told Parvati and Danielle precisely that.  He also told them to vote for Tyson. 

 

His next job was to stack the votes against Parv.  So he spoke with Tyson.  Told him he regretfully was going to vote Parv.  It was breaking his heart, but that was the only way he could stay in the game.  Stupid (that season) Tyson believed him, and decided that was a good time for him (Tyson) to flip his vote against Parv as well.  Tyson has a confessional where he says this. 

 

Tyson didn't think Russell was going to sacrifice himself.  He thought Russell would save himself, by voting Parvati.  The person Tyson most wanted gone. 

 

So even though Rob came up with a fail-proof plan, it turns out it wasn't fool-proof.  Tyson let Russell dupe him into doing what he most wanted to do anyway.  At least that's my read.  Tyson's explanation doesn't hold water, given the various conversations, confessionals and agreements the various villains made that day. 

 

Adding to the irony, Tyson said he just wanted to get the vote over, so he could eat the hot dogs and drinks Rob won at the challenge; and Rob, as he was writing down Russell's name at tribal, said "welcome to the big leagues."

 

Tyson did get to eat great, but it was at Ponderosa.  And Rob (2nd greatest player ever IMO) was shown an aspect of the big leagues even he  never conceived of before. 

 

I just rewatched all this.  Has to be the most mind-blowing, creative, out-of-the-box move I've ever seen.  Shocked everybody: only Russell knew how he'd put the pieces together.  He read things perfectly, from Rob's plan, to the weak link, to how to exploit it... took an incredible risk... and completely changed the course of the game. 

 

It's also interesting that, as someone noted a while back, this whole thing only came up because Survivor had a double-boot that day.  On virtually every other Survivor episode, the villains would not have gone to tribal.  

 

What an incredible season, filled with cutthroat, hall-of-fame players at the top of their game. 

[choclatechip45]

It's pretty crazy that everyone on the villains tribe besides Randi and Jerri made it to a final tribal.

I can't stand Russell, but I think Tyson was trying to save face I know he has admitted he was depressed the way he went out in HvV.

[peachmangosteen]

In Russell's first season, the majority alliance was trying to boot him the entire second half of the game.  He was public enemy #1 for them.  Natalie made one great move right after merge.  Other than that, she didn't protect Russell from anyone.  Other way around.  He protected her, plus Mick and Jaison, from a 7 to 4 deficit, brought all of them to F5, and three of them to F3.  I for one don't believe the edit inflated his role, or shortchanged Natalie's.

I think some of the players from Samoa would disagree with this. Natalie played an amazing social game and she definitely protected Russell. Russell's absolutely terrible social game protected Natalie because she knew, on day 1 I believe, that he would never be able to win so she was gonna use him all the way to the end to guarantee herself a million dollars. Which, hilariously enough, is what Russell thought he was doing with Natalie, but he was just so very wrong. 

 

I personally don't think Russell was very good at any aspect of the game, but that doesn't really matter anyway because everyone will agree he was just atrocious at the social game. And that is almost always one of the most important factors in winning.

Edited May 24, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[fishcakes]

Russell is the player who's the most difficult for me to evaluate. He has a bad social game overall, but saying even that feels like an oversimplification. We know from interviews with other players that his social game was both worse and better than we saw. They edited out a lot of the moments where he was telling other players how bad they sucked and making fun of them (and, apparently, Parvati -- who's widely regarded as having an excellent social game -- did the same during HvV, especially with JT), but at the same time, people who've played with him either like him or seem indifferent at worst. I think only Coach and Rupert dislike him, and, well, they're Coach and Rupert; they've got their own problems with perception and self-awareness. Even the Redemption Island people who voted him out early didn't hate him; they seemed to genuinely view him as a threat.

 

Apart from his social game, which I agree is the most important aspect of playing, I don't think he's across the board a horrible player. There's something about his gameplay that works, and I don't think it's just goat immunity. Natalie White realized he would be a good goat at some point, but I believe it was much closer to the end of the game than she claims. To Russell's credit, he's an active player. He's always trying to work an angle or improve his position, and twice he got to the end despite being in a minority alliance. Of course, he was also responsible for those alliances being in the minority, so as I said, he's hard to evaluate. At the very least, I find him an interesting player and sort of hateful, but for me, he's more of a love-to-hate than a straight up HAAAAATE. I don't think he can ever win the game because his social game is under par and he refuses to understand why that's important, and his claims of having "changed the game" and how he brought things to the game that weren't there before are frankly delusional, but he's only hurting himself with that, so I don't care.

 

Well, shit. I think this means I need to watch Samoa again, and Samoa was a crap season.

Edited May 24, 2015 by fishcakes

[kikaha]

 

Russell's absolutely terrible social game protected Natalie because she knew, on day 1 I believe, that he would never be able to win so she was gonna use him all the way to the end to guarantee herself a million dollars.

 

I think there's a big flaw, or weakness, in your argument: that anyone down 4-8 at merge would think they could use another person in their alliance to guarantee they make it to the end.  That normally is about impossible.  A more likely result is what happened to the NC3 this year... to Malcolm and the 3 Amigos the season Cochran won... to Terry and his tribe at Exile Island.  

[peachmangosteen]

I think there's a big flaw, or weakness, in your argument: that anyone down 4-8 at merge would think they could use another person in their alliance to guarantee they make it to the end.  That normally is about impossible.

 

I'm sure people think they can do it though. I mean, wasn't Russell himself doing just that with Natalie? It's not likely to happen, but for Natalie it did.

 

Good post, fishcakes. I actually grew to love-to-hate Russell myself. Once you realize he's mostly harmless because he's an arrogant idiot, he becomes quite entertaining! But for me he's still just a terrible player. I just can't respect the game he played at all.

Edited May 25, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[enlightenedbum]

I would if the editors didn't let him suck all the oxygen from the room.  And he's so boring.

[peachmangosteen]

I would if the editors didn't let him suck all the oxygen from the room.  And he's so boring.

 

Yea, true. He just says the same things over and over and the editors made sure we heard it every damn time.

[cherrypj]

I've just noticed that the TWOP Survivor recaps are no longer available. I did archive them by scraping these, and only these, recaps before the site was shuttered. The archives are all single HTML files (one per episode), with only a small amount of styling to hide the "pages" jump links. It goes to season 28, episode 5.
 
Interested? Available for a short time only! (6.3 MB zip file)
 
You could also go to Brilliant But Cancelled.

Edited May 26, 2015 by cherrypj

[kikaha]

I would if the editors didn't let him suck all the oxygen from the room.  And he's so boring.

The audience as a whole ate it up.  They made him fan favorite two seasons in a row.  And the CBS poll published in February this year ranked Russell as 2nd greatest castaway ever. 

[enlightenedbum]

The audience as a whole ate it up.  They made him fan favorite two seasons in a row.  And the CBS poll published in February this year ranked Russell as 2nd greatest castaway ever. 

1) James won Fan Favorite twice.  Rupert was given a million dollars for free in the precursor to that award.  It's meaningless.

2) By this theory the Big Bang Theory is the funniest thing on TV

[LadyChatts]

1) James won Fan Favorite twice.  Rupert was given a million dollars for free in the precursor to that award.  It's meaningless.

2) By this theory the Big Bang Theory is the funniest thing on TV

 

The fact that James won that award twice proved why I'm glad the audience doesn't decide the sole Survivor.  It's okay for a popularity contest, but I wouldn't want the title and million to go to who the audience wants when we see something heavily edited.  It was amusing to see Russell argue with Jeff about that, though, and Jeff telling him he had the wrong show.  

Edited May 26, 2015 by LadyChatts

[kikaha]

It's not meaningless.  It shows the fans don't find Russell boring.  Unless, that is, you think they would vote a boring player as their favorite, two seasons in a row. 

 

The CBS poll shows the fans also think Russell s a great player (unlike James) .  Taken together, these two facts show people like watching Russell and think he's great.  Even the RHAP poll shows Russell as the 9th greatest player ever.  That's as of June, 2014. 

 

i.e. maybe you find Russell boring and a terrible player, but the TV audience as a whole disagrees with you. 

 

Big Bang is a huge commercial success.  As with Russell, whether or not you like it, the market as a whole does.  Its high ranking doesn't mean it's the funniest -- just that it's one of the most popular.  btw, wouldn't surprise me if many people do consider it the funniest. 

[SnideAsides]

All it really shows is that the specific subsection of the audience likely to waste their time voting in such polls prefer a character who gets shoved down their throat (as was the case with basically all of the Fan Favourite winners) than a character who gets an invisible edit for ten weeks before suddenly becoming the final boss battle (hi Brett!).

[KimberStormer]

HvV is my favorite season to think about.  I like to just ignore outside-the-show stuff, because who knows, who knows.  From where I was sitting, a guileless believer of what I see on TV and a highly biased Parvati fangirl, the Tyson boot was a combination of Russell and Parvati working together in a delicious villainous harmony.  I don't know why nobody ever mentions the scene where Tyson and Parvati are talking, by the well if I remember?  She plants a seed in his mind that his name could come up, and freaked him out.  He seemed honestly shaken by it.  Then Russell says oh you know, I gotta vote Parv to save myself, it sucks but what can you do.  I feel like Tyson was worried, somehow the numbers were going to go weird, and if he voted for Russell and Russell saved himself with the idol, he could be in trouble.  I do believe that nobody ever imagined Russell would play the idol on Parvati, because he's an obviously selfish guy.  I don't think Parvati was expecting that, I think she was just doing her own version of subtle scrambling by trying to scare Tyson, but I think it was a combination of the two that worked on his overly-impressed-with-himself mind.

 

I do think it is silly to give short shrift to Parv's merge tribal play.  That one was all her and magnificent, from stepping down from the pole to making Amanda look like a complete moron in the woods, that made, or should have made, the social game essentially irrelevant to Parvati.  Parv, Russell, and Danielle should have been a solid three (the best chance of getting votes for all three of them), but Jerri and Sandra would be committing absolute Survivor suicide to let a Hero get to final tribal, so flipping would be insane.  Of the P/R/D trio, Russell is Russell and everyone hates him; and for whatever mysterious reason everyone also hates Danielle (I have no idea why!  I like you Danielle!), plus Danielle was very obviously Parvati's follower, there is no reason to vote for her.  In that company even if Parvati wasn't charismatic and funny and beautiful she would be sitting on a pretty nice base to win from.  It should have been a sort of dreary clockwork Pagong grind, but an amazing performance by a master of Survivor, playing a completely different game to her last masterpiece of a game in Micronesia.

 

But in reality of course both Sandra and Russell were stupider than expected--Sandra hated Russell enough to try really hard to lose just to stick it to him but failed because Candice is a moron for the ages (and to give Russell credit, he worked her over somehow), and it didn't really affect the game that much, and Russell lost his mind in a fit of jealous paranoia or whatever it was and voted out Danielle, even though Danielle in the final three is the only way Russell gets a single vote.  (Some macho moron Heroes would vote Russell in that Final 3 for sure.)  And so Sandra got to the end, and won by being an honorary Hero for that tribe of chauvanistic morons to vote for. 

 

I'll note that Jerri played a flawless game from the bottom of her alliances, and I really wish she won instead (if someone had to win who wasn't Parvati)--she and not Sandra knew that Russell being stupid enough to vote for Danielle was a huge gift for her, the moment she had been waiting for, and I wish they'd taken her to the end instead of Sandra, so she could be the honorary Hero, which would have been awesome as she was the original female Survivor Villain.  Also, early on, it was she who realized there was no percentage in sticking with Rob and flipped, which was also very much a good move for her.  Jerri killed it in HvV and I wish she got more credit for that.  In my mind, I rate people's HvV games as Parvati > Jerri > JT > Russell > Danielle > the rest of the gang.  (I also wish Courtney had been the lucky one to make it to the merge instead of Sandra, because I believe she would have been loyal to Parv as she said she would, and, assuming everything went the same way, it would have been an amazing ending.  I think it was Dalton Ross who interviewed people on the beach before the game began and asked them all, "why will you win Heroes VS Villains?" and Courtney said "Because....it would be really funny."  And man, it would have been.  Courtney Yates, Greatest Survivor Of All.)

[enlightenedbum]

I'm not sure Jerri actually improved her position by switching from Team Rob to Team Parv, though I do agree she played well.  Jumping on Russell's insanity to boot Danielle and give herself a shot at final three was exceptionally well done.

 

As a thought experiment though, let's think about if she votes out Russell the week after Tyson is booted.  That makes the Villain tribe (in approximate order of loyalty to Rob):

 

Rob, Coach, Courtney, Sandra, Jerri, Danielle, and Parvati.  Against JT (idol), Rupert, Colby, Amanda, and Candice.  If the Villains win one of the last two challenges (and Rob >>> Russell in challenges, especially puzzles so I think this is reasonable), we hit the merge at:

 

Rob, Coach, Courtney, Sandra, Jerri, Danielle, JT (idol), Rupert, Colby, and Amanda (I think this is right anyway).  And there's an extra villain idol lying around somewhere.

 

Assume the Pagonging goes fairly straight forwardly.  Danielle is unceremoniously booted in sixth.  So now it's Rob, Coach, Courtney, Sandra, and Jerri.  I think Rob is smart enough to know Sandra is dangerous if you put her in front of a jury, while Coach is generally viewed as a buffoon.  So his inclination would be to ally with Coach, who will prefer taking Jerri, right?  I think Rob definitely thinks he can beat Courtney or Jerri so will just go with the thing that guarantees Coach.

 

That's all extrapolating kind of far out and it's hard for Jerri to make that projection, especially given her All-Stars experience where she got snaked by a moron doing Rob's bidding.  But still!  I think she's probably got a solid shot at FTC either way she goes.  I think she's more likely to get to FTC with Rob actually, but less likely to beat Rob in a situation where Lex is not involved.

 

Plus I like Rob more than Russell.  And that would have kept Courtney around for a bunch more episodes.  The only flaw here would be no Dragonz.  And if Rob had won HvV we don't get RI in the format we did or maybe even the "duel" seasons at all.  So Jerri single handedly ruined Survivor for multiple seasons.

 

OK, no. That was the editors. Still though, dammit Jerri!

Edited May 26, 2015 by enlightenedbum

[KimberStormer]

I'm not sure Jerri actually improved her position by switching from Team Rob to Team Parv, though I do agree she played well.  Jumping on Russell's insanity to boot Danielle and give herself a shot at final three was exceptionally well done.

 

Well, I was thinking more simply, that if Jerri was fifth or whatever with Rob, that's worse than fifth with Russell, Parvati, and Danielle, none of whom are very well-liked out there.  And Rob is as you say a challenge beast.  (Though of course Parv is too.)  Just assuming she's fifth in both cases and immunity wins to the end, she'd surely rather be up against the Terrible Three than the loveable Rob 3.0, who was the Honorary Hero of the Villains from day one.  I mean, is there any way JT, Rupert, Colby, Sandra, vote for anybody but Rob if he's there?

 

It is hilarious to realize that Jerri was the harmless butterfly whose flapping wings caused the terrible typhoons of our Survivor lives in bringing us the horrible Redemption Island, both the season and the concept...

[choclatechip45]

I don't put much faith in RHAP polls or fan based polls at all to measure gameplay because they favor recency bias. I can never respect Russell as a player for the way he acted at the HvV reunion show.