Past Seasons Talk: The Tribe Has Spoken

[Oholibamah]

Speaking of Amanda, I've been listening to Rob's Micronesia Evolution of Strategy chapter, and he and Wigler decide that Eric didn't do the dumbest Survivor move ever by giving away his immunity necklace so the girls would be his friends, they think Woo beat him by bringing Tony to the end. But I'm dubious, that tribal was like a car crash, cringe inducing to watch, but I couldn't look away. What do you guys think?

 

For me, Erik's stupidity is alleviated by the fact that he was going toe-to-toe with Cirie of all people. That woman probably could talk somebody into voting out their own mother (even if it DIDN'T make sense, Ciera). The countermoves against Erik were so incredible that even I probably would have fallen for it in his shoes.

 

The setup: the girls, specifically Natalie, feign offense at Erik's supposed betrayal. Wanting to save Natalie, Erik proposes that he vote for Amanda with Cirie/Natalie. Cirie says "sure, but you're a known liar. Give Natalie your necklace and I know you're good for your word".

 

Sweeten the pot: Not only did Erik need allies that he could gain with Cirie/Natalie, but he was souring with the jury over the last few weeks. So Cirie assures him this act of trust will repair his reputation with the jury.

 

Seal the deal: Amanda and Parvati destroy Erik at TC. The jury reacts with delight. Erik now knows Amanda/Parvati will never work with him, and that even if he wins his way to the end, the jury despises him.

 

The reality is, if he had won his way to the end, he did have an outside chance of getting votes from Alexis/Natalie/Jason/Cirie/Eliza if he sits next to Amanda and from Ozzy/James/Jason/Eliza if he sits next to Parvati. But he was young and naive, tired and hungry, and a superfan playing against former players, one of whom is a freaking Jedi. The poor guy didn't stand a chance.

 

TBH, I find very few Survivor moves actively "stupid". For me it comes down to a risk/reward ratio, and I can usually use that to at least understand what a player was thinking even if I wouldn't have done the same. For example:

 

JT's Idol giveaway had huge potential for reward, even though it was risky as fuck. Even assuming Russell sticks with the villains to make it 5-5, Parvati had to work the hell out of those Idols to avoid a tie. If JT had kept his Idol, the Heroes still have to gamble on who the Villains will vote for at F10, and gaining a 6-4 advantage would have been huge.

 

I agree with most of the major flippers. Susie and Erinn are no-brainers, but even Kass, Cochran and Brandon had cohesive arguments for why they flipped. Deciding who to take to the finals is another common misstep, but Colby seemed to be operating on reasons outside the game, Woo had to contend with Tony's impressively convincing argument, and Sandra/Natalie White were masterful at playing into Russell's expectation of them as "useless".

 

My nominations for stupidest moves are James not playing one of his Idols and Tyson voting for Parvati just cuz. Anything else I can think of as "stupid" usually relate to somebody's overall gameplay rather than one decisive move. Pursuant to this, I think Erik began his poor gameplay long before he gave away his Immunity necklace and that move was a defensible attempt to rectify that.

[ljenkins782]

 

Speaking of Amanda, I've been listening to Rob's Micronesia Evolution of Strategy chapter, and he and Wigler decide that Eric didn't do the dumbest Survivor move ever by giving away his immunity necklace so the girls would be his friends, they think Woo beat him by bringing Tony to the end. But I'm dubious, that tribal was like a car crash, cringe inducing to watch, but I couldn't look away. What do you guys think?

I don't agree with that, and honestly it seems like apples and oranges. Choosing the wrong person to take in the end is more a wrong guess or a misread of a jury member or two AND it's a choice that has to be made. I especially couldn't make the case that Woo/Tony is the dumbest FTC choice ever, I think Colby had a slam dunk over Keith and didn't go for it. 

 

The difference between that and the moves of Erik, Tyson, or JT is that theirs were all moves they didn't have to make. Tyson's might be the dumbest for me just because his alliance had mapped out all of the possibilities (including the idol being played on Parvati) and they were entirely covered in the event of an idol bounce, his impulsive decision to flip wrecked the plan that had been laid out by people smarter than him.

 

Erik's and JT's moves fall more under the umbrella of the risk/reward scenario that Oholibamah mentioned upthread. If JT's theory had been right, it would have flipped the game his way. In Erik's case, he was being completely snowed by people much better at the game than him, but they made what seemed like a compelling argument regarding the jury (to be honest, from watching the edit of the show, I didn't see the whole Erik vs the jury dynamic that clearly. Erik's edit was pretty good the whole way so I thought he had a decent shot, but the way it played out in real life must have been different.) 

 

Watching Nicaragua now, not super digging this season. Still enjoying the show as always, but I'm having trouble really rooting for anyone on this season. Also, the nickname "Kelly Purple" is making me laugh and the fact that a nickname given to a guy in the game (Fabio) is part of the opening credits without any mention of his actual name is kinda weird. Did they use "Boston Rob" in the All-stars/HvVs/RI credits? 

[henripootel]

Eric didn't do the dumbest Survivor move ever by giving away his immunity necklace so the girls would be his friends, they think Woo beat him by bringing Tony to the end. But I'm dubious,

I'm more than dubious about Woo (see 'tinfoil hat' thread).  Doing something that 'stupid' makes me think 'producer interference'.  I can see cause for this in Woo's season but I don't know enough about Eric's to smell fish.

JT's Idol giveaway had huge potential for reward, even though it was risky as fuck.

How had it any potential?  This was (correct me if I'm wrong) where JT gave his idol to Russell, somebody he didn't know, for no particular reason at all, and on the off chance he might be grateful later and in a position to return the favor?  And this at a time when players were expressly forbidden from having exactly this kind of contact with other tribes?  Just rewatched this episode and it has Utopia-levels of producer all over it, a rare lapse for Jeffy and co.  Not sure if this qualifies for 'stupid'.

James not playing one of his Idols and Tyson voting for Parvati just cuz

Ding ding ding - we have a winner.  Not sure about the Tyson one - was this HvV?  If so, that didn't make any farking sense either.

Edited June 29, 2015 by henripootel

[kikaha]

 

 

For all the talk of how well Parvati played that season, and for all of Russell's bluster about how he is the greatest, they both would have been out pre-merge if Tyson hadn't decided he knew better than a split vote strategy.

 

Hera, you're right, but the other side to that is that Tyson made his stupid move because Russell (and to a lesser degree Parvati) manipulated him into doing so. 

 

I know I've said this before, ,but it impresses me so much I'll repeat it: that sequence of moves is the most mind-blowing/original/out-of-the-box in the history of Survivor.  Completely changed the direction, complexion and makeup of the game.   The fact that it involved Rob and Parvati (two best players ever IMO) makes it even more staggering. 

 

I think two things made JT's idol giveaway especially bad:  1) No one knew Russell.  They hadn't played with him, or even seen him on TV.  But they knew he was a Villain.  Giving an idol to such an unknown quantity, when you really don't know what's going on in the other tribe, is a little crazy;   2) JT wasn't the only one who decided to slip the idol to Russell.  The entire Heroes tribe went along with it.  We see the danger of groupthink, something the heroes repeatedly slid into that season. 

[Al Herkimer]

Finished Season 8 (All-Stars).  I remember thinking that Boston Rob had been cheated by an unfair jury, but now I see that his jury management was particularly bad and that's a big flaw in his game here.  It was a bit absurd to see how easily he bullied and intimidated his way through the game, and how all these other able-bodies adults let him do it.  I still can't see what Lex and Kathy were thinking when they kept Amber and voted Jeri out.  Later, they claimed they did it out of friendship for Rob but during they game they both had talking heads in which they claimed it was good strategy.  Either way, there was never going to be any other result, it was never going to get them to the end of the game.  I had forgotten how visibly shaken Rob was by the jury's scorn and indignation at the final tc.

 

This weekend I watched season 9 (Vanuatu.)  Chris played an amazing game, he masterfully manipulated the other final 9 players in a way very few other winners have, and he did it several times.  I think he would be roundly denounced as a chauvinist if the online world were a stronger presence back then.  He made many statements about women that were similar to stuff that Dan F. said (almost exactly the same, come to think of it) about how women think and how he was going to manipulate them.  However, he a) was a lot more likeable and didn't seem as "mean" as Dan and b) actually did successfully manipulate the women in question exactly as he predicted (it's hard to argue with success).  I'm surprised we never saw Chris again.  Or Sarge.

 

Anyway, Chris was also very, very good at jury management and at the final tribal council.  Through Season 9, I've found him to be the most impressive winner so far because of his dramatic come-from-behind victory and manipulation of the personalities around him.

[KimberStormer]

How had it any potential?  This was (correct me if I'm wrong) where JT gave his idol to Russell, somebody he didn't know, for no particular reason at all, and on the off chance he might be grateful later and in a position to return the favor?  And this at a time when players were expressly forbidden from having exactly this kind of contact with other tribes?  Just rewatched this episode and it has Utopia-levels of producer all over it, a rare lapse for Jeffy and co.  Not sure if this qualifies for 'stupid'.

 

Just assuming for shits and giggles that Survivor is not directed by crop-circle aliens placing their instructions to Probst in coded Craigslist posts, here's how JT's move had potential to me.

 

The first thing to remember is that both tribes, full of old-school players who were a bit unused to idols and fuddy-duddily opposed to them, tried to get a tribe consensus that nobody would even look for the idol.  To me, that is the moronic groupthink of HvV (similar to the morons of Gabon throwing the idol in the sea), not the Heroes going along with JT.  One person (at least according to the editing) on each tribe resisted this silliness: Russell, the famous idol addict, on the Villains, and JT, who played an almost entirely idol-free game in Tocantins (Stephen and Brendan had them, but never used them except as alliance-strengthening trust builders), showing once more that JT was one of very few people to play differently his second time around, which is what I admire most about him.  Anyway, so as part of his effort to be the villain of the Hero tribe, JT goes to look for the idol, but Amanda catches him when he finds it, so he has to share it with the group.  Combined with the fact that he's flipped before to get rid of Cirie (a very smart move as Cirie is a big game hunter and JT was at the time some of the biggest game on the island) JT is looking untrustworthy to the Heroes.  The idol is dangerous to own: a symbol of distrust, rather than trust as in Tocantins.  How can he use it to further his goals in the game, while at the same time reestablishing the trust of the Heroes?  By giving it away.

 

One thing that's fun to do re: HvV is to revisit the pre-game interviews.  Who do you want to vote out first, they were asked, and almost every motherfucker on that island declares Parvati.  Micronesia obsessed them out there.  Why were they so quick to assume the woman's alliance was happening?  Because all these dudes were terrified of it, and Parvati for putting it together once before, and humiliating Ozzy and James.  It would surely be universally popular on the Hero tribe at least to get rid of her.  In this Micronesia monomania they convinced themselves that the Black Widows Part 2 were devouring the men, one by one, all over again; and they saw Russell, the last man standing, as the sure target.  Imagine you're watching the other tribe dwindling and you know only what the Heroes know and assume.  Down go Tyson, then Rob.  Clearly these women are getting rid of the strong as fast as they can.  Russell is the last: clearly he's the weakest--no connections to anyone, a hapless newbie, left for last because least threatening, like so many a useless Pagong victim before him.  Weak, alone, doomed, and you can save him--the perfect pawn.  It doesn't matter that he was cast as a Villain, because surely compared to the all-devouring Parvati he's small potatoes villainous, like Jerri, let alone Courtney or Danielle.  JT's two acquaintances on the Villain tribe are Coach and Tyson, hardly terrifying devils, just a pair of jerks.

 

So JT, in an unprecedentedly creative (yes yes, perhaps producer-directed, but if so why even watch, idgi) brainwave, inspired perhaps by Brendan's similarly brilliant and delightful but failed Exile Alliance, decides to kill all the birds with one green jade stone.  He gets rid of the idol that is scaring the rest (and perhaps is thinking, when the merge idol is placed, he will be again be the only non-idiot out there and get it).  He takes out Parvati--this is his specific instruction to Russell in the famous letter--which will not only be universally popular among the Heroes, but also is personally helpful to him, as he surely feels Parv is a threat to him especially as the most prominent "alpha male" left in the game (and how right he is.)  He wins over a helpful pawn in Russell as an unthinkably generous savior and fellow southerner--very very good for JT to have another number specifically on his side, since he is such an unavoidably visible challenge and jury threat.  And he does it all in what would surely have gone down in history as one of the most dazzling moves ever in the history of Survivor, a spectacular entry on his FTC resume.  He comes to the merge with Rupert and Colby (useless chumps), Candice (disliked), Amanda (easily painted a flipping threat), and his ace in the hole Russell, against the profoundly unthreatening foursome of Jerri, Danielle, Courtney, and Sandra?  Hell yes I'd take that risk, if I were him.  He can beat any of them at the final tribal and has plenty of avenues of attack to get there.

 

Once again I'd like to point out that JT knew, unlike so many others, that he could not play the same game that won the first time, could not coast to victory on pure charm yet again.  I'm sure he'd seen All-Stars and the anti-winner sentiment there was deep in his mind.  He was not just a previous winner, but a unanimous winner, who had never gotten a vote against him--a perfect game.  It's astonishing that he made it as far as he did.  He needed to play as hard as he could, there was no hiding under the radar possible for him.  I'm sure he knew his idol handoff was a huge risk.  But a manageable risk--as Oholibamah said, even without it working, Parvati had to pull off her own astonishing feat to get the better of the Heroes, and if it worked as planned, I feel like it could very easily have led to his second win.  And in a way that would have been very entertaining for those of us back home, which is really what pays his million-dollar check.  I'll always love JT's HvV game.

[henripootel]

Just assuming for shits and giggles that Survivor is not directed by crop-circle aliens placing their instructions to Probst in coded Craigslist posts, here's how JT's move had potential to

It always slays me when people think Survivor, of all the shows in the reality show pantheon, is actually the sole and only one pure as the driven snow.  I mean it's nice that people idealize their favorites but even without the red flags, I'd still assume Survivor is a reality show until proven otherwise. 

 

So, red flags.  JT wrote a rambling letter to Russell which Parvati later read aloud mockingly.  Let's forget for a moment that Russell is absolutely right about the stupidity of handing over such a potent advantage to anybody you're not allied with and ask this: where'd he get the pen?  Where'd he get the paper?

 

The player handbook also explicitly states (the one I saw was, I think current for that period) that tribes were to have no contact outside of challenges and even there, only such as are necessary for the challenge.  Why did JT ever think passing notes (to say nothing of game pieces) would be allowed?  Not only was it allowed, the camera work had to be choreographed, and was.  You think they just happened to catch it?  And that JT just 'got away with' breaking an explicit rule?

 

Why Russell?  I know we saw JT 'reasoning' on this but what made him think an unknown (to him) producer favorite (he was on an all-star season) would make any sort of ally at all?  If Russell needed saving, how much saving would one idol provide him?  What are the odds he'll survive long enough to return the favor, or even be inclined to?  This whole sequence so beggars belief that almost any other explanation begins to sound plausible, including crop circles. 

 

You say he had to get that poisonous idol out of his own hands, so the only avenue open to him was to do something entirely illegal and strategically questionable, which just happened to benefit a player Probst had a boner for at the time and (arguably) changed the game.  This was JT's only option?  He could throw the idol into the sea, give it to one of his allies, promise everyone not to use it (and make a big deal about not bringing it to TC), deliberately waste it at the next TC ...

 

I'm not saying JT wasn't a reasonable strategist but I don't think this particular incident bears this out.  I'm not convinced any of this was his idea (and suspicious of the edit showing me that it really, really was) but I do feel certain of this: there is absolutely no way he could have 'pulled this off' without being greenlit by production. And once you turn that corner, the driven snow don't look so pure.

Edited June 30, 2015 by henripootel

[KimberStormer]

 where'd he get the pen?  Where'd he get the paper?

 

They were Amanda's luxury items, which the Heroes won the use of in the mud-wrestling challenge.

 

Why did JT ever think passing notes (to say nothing of game pieces) would be allowed?  Not only was it allowed, the camera work had to be choreographed, and was.  You think they just happened to catch it?  And that JT just 'got away with' breaking an explicit rule?

 

He thought of it, perhaps, because of the Exile Alliance, as I said (do you think Taj and Brendan were technically not allowed to talk at Exile, because of this clause?) and because it is a stupid and pointless rule which only limits THE DRAMA which the producers crave.  This 'rule' makes no sense and is completely arbitrary, so of course it can be arbitrarily discarded.  They also did not intervene when Ozzy and Cao Boi, or whoever it was, went exploring and ended up in the opposite tribe's camp in Cook Islands.  They did not have to "just catch" anything because the producers, of course, knew the idol handoff was going to happen--not because they scripted it, but because the Heroes discussed it amongst themselves and in talking heads.  The camera choreography was in fact particularly singled out for its awesomeness by Jeff Probst because he was so happy they got the shots they needed--it wasn't any secret.

 

Why on earth wouldn't the producers choose good TV over completely meaningless and arbitrary rules?  Why would they write any rules at all if they call the shots anyway?  The Game of Thrones writers don't come up with rules for what Peter Dinklage is allowed to do, they just write the script and he follows it.

 

Why Russell?  I know we saw JT 'reasoning' on this but what made him think an unknown (to him) producer favorite (he was on an all-star season) would make any sort of ally at all?  If Russell needed saving, how much saving would one idol provide him?  What are the odds he'll survive long enough to return the favor, or even be inclined to?

 

Because he was the last man, that he was saving from the women's alliance, and a fellow Southerner.  It would provide him with saving for the merge, coming, as they assumed correctly, the next day.  The jury had already started to be formed, it couldn't really be any longer till the merge.  The odds were therefore basically 100% that he would survive long enough to return the favor, and he might be inclined to because that is something that humans do.

 

This was JT's only option?

 

No.  Similarly, playing two idols on Jerri and Sandra was not Parvati's only option.  In no case was any creative and awesome move the only option.  That's what makes them creative and awesome.

 

I always enjoy your conspiracy theorizing henripootel, don't get me wrong; but it is generally absurd, as in this case.  For my point of view, you only need the pragmatic/cynical understanding that the producers don't care about their own nonsense 'rules' (which have never even been shown to the audience: I am taking your word for it that something so illogical and pointless was ever in a "player's handbook") and would rather just let people do their thing when it's more interesting TV.  For your point of view they must script and dictate to the players each action, yet for some reason set up rules that they then break (perhaps to leave a clue about the show's crookedness for you, as the Beatles left clues to Paul's death in their lyrics to reveal the truth to the cleverest listeners?), and every person who has ever been n has somehow been frightened or bribed to silence about this matter.  I'm pretty comfortable with my version of the show, where they ask leading questions in talking heads, probably change and reorder challenges to help or hinder as they see fit, play a sort of hot-and-cold via cameraman when people are searching for idols, throw in twists and swaps and merges to alleviate boredom, edit with staggering bias, and so on; but leave up to the players their own actions and votes.  I don't know what a "pure game" would even mean, but no, I don't think that anybody told JT to give that idol away.

Edited June 30, 2015 by KimberStormer

[kikaha]

KimberStormer, great posts.  My only question is how much sense it makes to throw such a huge amount of trust and power at someone you know nothing about.  Not sure the risk/reward ratio was worth it.  Your analysis of JT's and Heroes' thinking is spot on. 

 

henri, I really agree with Kimber.  Survivor is not going to turn its back on drama and excitement.  Giving the idol to someone in the other tribe was an eye-opening, unique move.  Especially since we the audience knew how wrong the basic assumptions behind it were. 

 

btw, the only people I saw Parv mockingly reading JT's letter to were Russell and Danielle. 

[choclatechip45]

 

btw, the only people I saw Parv mockingly reading JT's letter to were Russell and Danielle.

Apparently that was her favroite past time to kill time to mock JT's letter. I think that's why none of the Heroes voted for her.

[kikaha]

Apparently that was her favroite past time to kill time to mock JT's letter.

I've heard that Parv supposedly did this.  Would like to know if this is a real fact. 

[BigRedCheese]

 

Why did JT ever think passing notes (to say nothing of game pieces) would be allowed?

 

I don't think he did it without asking one of the producers present, and I'm sure that person ran it through Jeff or Burnett, and they knew it would be good tv so they approved it.

[choclatechip45]

I've heard that Parv supposedly did this. Would like to know if this is a real fact.

I tend to believe it's true because I could see Parvati and Russell doing this. This is someone who almost lost Micronesia because she couldn't be nice to Eliza and I think Eliza is pretty annoying.

[henripootel]

henri, I really agree with Kimber.  Survivor is not going to turn its back on drama and excitement.

I actually agree with both of you but you kinda make my point.  I have no doubt at all that the producers root for drama like pigs for truffles, and they should, this is their job.  I also agree that the players root for camera time in a similar fashion, and that the interplay between the players and producers is the real action driving the 'edit'.  Towards this end, I'm likewise skeptical that 'rules' even exist, not really.  I mean there seem to be rules restricting what the players can do and say, but not so much the producers.  On this we agree.

 

I think the only place were we disagree is how willing the producers are to manufacture the drama if they see a chance to spice things up.  I think they are more than willing to do so, and given what we've already agreed on, I think it's no stretch at all to think that somebody may have had a quiet word with JT about giving his idol to a total stranger.  Don't worry about the rules prohibiting this, it'll be 'gold'.  I don't think the producers do this all the time about everything, but the idea that they'd never ever interfere in the game in such a substantive way is absurd.  This is their livelihood - no way they'd just leave it all to chance just to preserve the 'purity of the game' (whatever that might mean).

 

My guess is more like this: JT, if this whole incident was not suggested to him outright, came up with the idea as a way of trying to give the producers the 'gold' they love.  Was it a smart strategic move to give his idol to a stranger?  Yes and no.  On the face of it it's completely absurd, illegal, and likely to fail or even backfire (which it did).  But in terms of 'producer gold', it's a great idea, and here we are talking about it (and JT) years later.

 

This, for me, is what playing real Survivor is all about.  Is BRob one of the best players ever?  Of course not, but he's producer gold, smug and charismatic.  Did Tony the Cop's ridiculous 'spy shack' make a lick of actual sense?  Of course not, but gold.  The only real question for me is not whether the producers semi-script their gold (I think they do if they have to) but how often do they actually have to.  The players know what the producers want, and the smart ones (like Russell Hantz) play to them, whether or not this conflicts with the ostensible goals of 'the game'.  

 

This is the only way Survivor makes any sense to me at all, balancing the rule-book game with the real game of making a tv show.  Strike a good balance between the two and you get a Sandra, who hammed it up some and won twice.  Ignore the balance and you get Russell, a 'great player' who never (it seems to me) got anywhere near actually winning.  This is a far cry from what the producers might have us believe we're watching, an actual game where they just set up the rules and then just sit back and objectively film what happens.

Edited June 30, 2015 by henripootel

[kikaha]

 

I'm likewise skeptical that 'rules' even exist, not really.

 

That's the key.  There are a few basic rules.  But otherwise it's a free-for-all.  Anything goes.   That's part of its special charm and TV genius.  And that is why changing the rules, or procedures, doesn't bother me much. 

 

fwiw, I think JT came up with his brilliant idea himself.  I don't believe the producers or staff are that inventive or creative: the stress and conflict of the game give birth to the off-the-wall strategies.  Sometimes they play out, sometimes they don't.  JT knew he was entering a casino by giving away the idol.  In this case it came up snake-eyes. 

 

chocolatechip: my guess is Parvati did not keep rubbing JT's letter in the faces of the Heroes.  My hunch is that is an urban legend, that sprang from the one time we heard her reading it to Russell and Danielle.  If I'm wrong, she made a serious error with the jury. 

[KimberStormer]

I wouldn't be surprised if they read it once to the Heroes as a sort of "isn't this funny tho, really?" kind of thing, and it went over poorly.  I very much do not believe that they sat around re-reading it over and over doing dramatic recreations the way this story has grown over the years.  This is pretty much the only "evidence" that "Actually, Parvati played a completely terrible game in HvV!!!" and it seems to me like a total telephone-game exaggeration that gets more outrageous every time it is repeated, but it will always be repeated, because some people really hate Parvati and the fact that she has such a strong reputation as one of the best, if not the best, to ever play.  I tried another Survivor forum once for a little while after TWOP closed, but basically every time Parvati's name came up in any capacity, one or more of her hatedom would pop up with BUT DID YOU KNOW SHE KEPT READING JT'S LETTER TO THE HEROES YOU FUCKING CASUAL?? so I just couldn't stick around there anymore.

 

KimberStormer, great posts.  My only question is how much sense it makes to throw such a huge amount of trust and power at someone you know nothing about.  Not sure the risk/reward ratio was worth it.  Your analysis of JT's and Heroes' thinking is spot on. 

 

Thanks!  Yeah, I mean, it may not make sense, and may not have been worth it.  "It's so crazy it just might work!" is rarely something you want to be saying in real life, or even reality TV.  But on the other hand, he'd already accomplished pretty much everything you could possibly ask for in Tocantins, so why not just go for it?  How often I've wished, as low numbers of the alliance face certain doom and refuse to flip, that more people would throw caution to the wind sometimes.

[henripootel]

That's the key.  There are a few basic rules.  But otherwise it's a free-for-all.  Anything goes.

Totally agree with the spirit of this idea but in practice, I'll bet it's unworkable.  Take stealing.  They've clearly started greenlighting people to steal from each other but only on a very limited basis.  My guess is that, unchecked, people would steal from each other all. the. time.  Why not?  What better way to cripple your opponents than to leave them shoeless and shivering?  Were they to do this though, the whole show would soon descend into guarding one's belongings night and day, and possibly getting close to physical violence to defend them.  

 

Nay - what looks like a sign of incipient anarchy is, I'm pretty certain, very tightly controlled.  Not a sign of less producer control than before, but more.  A simple rule is simple: no stealing.  Case-by-case adjudication is more time consuming, and confusing.  But if you want to stay on for 30+ seasons, you do what you have to.

"It's so crazy it just might work!" is rarely something you want to be saying in real life, or even reality TV.

Yeah, but again, this is (to me) a sign of more fakery, not less.  What looks good on tv or in movies is rarely seen in actual practice for a very good reason - it usually is crazy and doesn't work at all.  We should alway remember that, romantic or not, Johnny Castle would absolutely not have ended up with Baby (with her dad giving Johnny a 'thanks for boning my daughter' look), he'd have ended up in jail for statutory rape.  

 

Sorry - too many stupid movies has left me profoundly suspicious of 'hollywood solutions'.  You get so used to seeing them that you can lose sight of the fact that they often make no farking sense. 

Edited June 30, 2015 by henripootel

[kikaha]

 

Sorry - too many stupid movies has left me profoundly suspicious of 'hollywood solutions'.  You get so used to seeing them that you can lose sight of the fact that they often make no farking sense. 

I think one reason for many crazy movies is the extreme conditions.  Most contestants are literally starving out there.  They get very little sleep.  They often must contend with extreme weather events, sometimes for weeks on end. 

 

Any one of those could probably make an effective torture technique.  On Survivor the players often must deal with all three.  That has to put a big crimp on their ability to think and perform. 

 

Also, it's been drummed into their heads that to win they need to make big moves.  I think that's one of Jeff's mantras.  On top of which, paranoia is rightly widespread.  They all know everyone is out for everyone else's throats.  Promises mean nothing: it's kill or be killed, figuratively speaking.  And they are playing on national (even international) TV, with a million dollars on the line, along with fame (or disgrace if they do poorly).  

 

Under those stresses and conflicts it doesn't surprise me to see some off-the-wall ideas and strategies. 

[henripootel]

Under those stresses and conflicts it doesn't surprise me to see some off-the-wall ideas and strategies.

I see what you're saying and I'm honestly not trying to be contrarian, but I would think it's just the opposite.  I do field research under tough conditions, and my first advice to my assistants is to stick to the plan even when they're so tired, dehydrated, and bored that you don't even remember why they're there.  And we eat well and sleep in proper tents.  I'm really amazed that these guys don't all get crybabyitis and can still plan a trip to the can, to say nothing of a 'big move'.  My hat is off to them.

[choclatechip45]

To be fair the first time I ever heard of the Paravti/Russell re reading the letter was from Sandra right after the season finished airing when asked why she thought certain people voted for her and not Parvati. When Survivors usually claim something that's not shown on tv I usually determine if I could see those players doing that and I can totally see both Parvati and Russell the reading the letter.

Edited July 1, 2015 by choclatechip45

[Oholibamah]

Why Russell?  I know we saw JT 'reasoning' on this but what made him think an unknown (to him) producer favorite (he was on an all-star season) would make any sort of ally at all?  If Russell needed saving, how much saving would one idol provide him?  What are the odds he'll survive long enough to return the favor, or even be inclined to?  This whole sequence so beggars belief that almost any other explanation begins to sound plausible, including crop circles.

 

I've always believed that a player's position in the game has FAR more influence on the moves they make than the kind of player they were or person they are. Some players are spectacular underdogs, but fall to hubris when they gain control. Coach, for example, was a completely different strategic player each time he played. The same person will play completely differently under varying circumstances.

 

Even if JT had seen Russell play in Samoa, what does that really change? Yeah, he's a slimy asshole, but when his interests aligned with those of another player (Mick and Natalie), then he stuck with them. The circumstances in HvV gave the appearance that he was going next and JT saw an opportunity to align their interests.

 

I think the only place were we disagree is how willing the producers are to manufacture the drama if they see a chance to spice things up.  I think they are more than willing to do so, and given what we've already agreed on, I think it's no stretch at all to think that somebody may have had a quiet word with JT about giving his idol to a total stranger.  Don't worry about the rules prohibiting this, it'll be 'gold'.  I don't think the producers do this all the time about everything, but the idea that they'd never ever interfere in the game in such a substantive way is absurd.  This is their livelihood - no way they'd just leave it all to chance just to preserve the 'purity of the game' (whatever that might mean).

Wouldn't we be seeing wacky gameplay like this all the time if that were the case?

 

I don't think anybody disagrees that the producers intervene to keep things interesting. GranolaGate in the Amazon is a disturbing example. But it falls outside Occum's razor to imagine the producers randomly gave JT such bizarre, out-of-left-field instructions.

 

I can imagine he jokingly brought it up or asked production if the move was within the rules and they encouraged him to do it. But that doesn't really ping my moral compass.

 

And communication at challenges has literally been happening since the beginning. Kimmi tells Tina that Jeff has past votes. Kim signals to Kelly that Lindsey has votes. Rob cries to Lex to keep Amber. Travis communicated with the other tribe and got his ass voted out. Danni tells the other tribe that Gary was a quarterback. Peih-Gee tries to get an indication from Sherea that they're still aligned. Matt shook hands with Zapatera and got himself voted out. Penner and Denise discuss the Facts of Life. Natalie tells Hunahpu that Jon Rocker is an asshole. Obviously handing off an Idol is a bit more substantial, but I wouldn't say the move is "illegal". Even if there are clauses in the rules about inter-tribe communication, rules get made up on the fly all the time (i.e. Albert can't help Sophie during the IC).

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they read it once to the Heroes as a sort of "isn't this funny tho, really?" kind of thing, and it went over poorly.  I very much do not believe that they sat around re-reading it over and over doing dramatic recreations the way this story has grown over the years.  This is pretty much the only "evidence" that "Actually, Parvati played a completely terrible game in HvV!!!" and it seems to me like a total telephone-game exaggeration that gets more outrageous every time it is repeated, but it will always be repeated, because some people really hate Parvati and the fact that she has such a strong reputation as one of the best, if not the best, to ever play. 

 

If I were in Parvati's shoes, I probably would sit around re-reading it over and over doing dramatic recreations. It's hysterical! What I don't agree with is that this somehow proves her social game sucked. I mean, I guess maybe she should have read the room and realized the Heroes all had a "fucking stick" lodged up their asses, but it's not like she was mocking somebody's miscarriage, saying people suck at life or comparing somebody to a blow-up-doll. Oh wait, the person who did that almost won because people liked her. Huh.

[kikaha]

To be fair the first time I ever heard of the Paravti/Russell re reading the letter was from Sandra right after the season finished airing when asked why she thought certain people voted for her and not Parvati.

 

If you can find that reference or interview, I would greatly appreciate it.  The quick search I did of Sandra's interviews after HvV did not uncover it, but of course that's far from complete.  Sandra did say in several interviews that after the season ended, she thought Parv had won, and was surprised when the votes went her way.    

[KimberStormer]

Yeah, but again, this is (to me) a sign of more fakery, not less.  What looks good on tv or in movies is rarely seen in actual practice for a very good reason - it usually is crazy and doesn't work at all.  We should alway remember that, romantic or not, Johnny Castle would absolutely not have ended up with Baby (with her dad giving Johnny a 'thanks for boning my daughter' look), he'd have ended up in jail for statutory rape.  

 

Yes, that was a bit of a joke (I was going to say something like "or even reality TV, eh henripootel?" but that seemed like overdoing it.)  But don't you dare say that about Dirty Dancing.  Baby and Johnny have a whole lot of incredibly hot sex, her dad loves him, they help him get a gig as an artistically innovative choreographer in a small New York dance company with Penny as a principal dancer, Baby goes off to be an awesome lawyer or whatever and they stay in touch for the rest of their lives as great friends.  Say what you will about Survivor, but JERRY ORBACH DOES NOT DO HORRIBLE THINGS LIKE PROSECUTE HIS DAUGHTER'S SUPER-HOT BOYFRIEND.

 it's not like she was mocking somebody's miscarriage, saying people suck at life or comparing somebody to a blow-up-doll. Oh wait, the person who did that almost won because people liked her. Huh.

 

<3

[phlebas]

but it's not like she was mocking somebody's miscarriage, saying people suck at life or comparing somebody to a blow-up-doll. Oh wait, the person who did that almost won because people liked her. Huh.

 

Oh crap.  How did I miss that happening?  Who did that? I feel like a noob.  (Please don't be Amanda.... please don't be Amanda.... )

[BigRedCheese]

 

Oh crap.  How did I miss that happening?  Who did that?

 

Courtney Yates from Survivor China, or at least I think that's who they're referring to. I know she famously said Denise Sucked at life, but Denise herself went on and on about how much she sucked at life, so it didn't bother me. I don't remember the other two references, but I know Courtney brought the snark, so I don't doubt it.

[henripootel]

JERRY ORBACH DOES NOT DO HORRIBLE THINGS LIKE PROSECUTE HIS DAUGHTER'S SUPER-HOT BOYFRIEND.

Age of consent in New York in 1963: 17.  Age of Francis 'Baby' Houseman in 1963: 16.  Unless Johnny Castle is 20 or less (unlikely), we have us a felony.  For me the movie ends thusly.

 

Johnny: Nobody puts Baby in a corner.

Jake: No, but somebody puts Johnny in a cell.  Cuff 'em, Ray.

Me: Yes! Yes! You go, Lenny Briscoe!

 

Full disclosure: I fucking hate this movie, all men do.  Two girlfriends and my now-wife made me watch it and it was beyond enduring.  At least once my pithy and piquant thoughts generously shared while viewing it earned me a night (or more) senza amore.  This movie fucking owes me.

 

And to stay on topic, uh, something about Survivor.

Edited July 1, 2015 by henripootel

[choclatechip45]

 

If you can find that reference or interview, I would greatly appreciate it.  The quick search I did of Sandra's interviews after HvV did not uncover it, but of course that's far from complete.  Sandra did say in several interviews that after the season ended, she thought Parv had won, and was surprised when the votes went her way.

I'm pretty sure it was one of her RHAP interviews.

[kikaha]

Age of consent in New York in 1963: 17.  Age of Francis 'Baby' Houseman in 1963: 16.  Unless Johnny Castle is 20 or less (unlikely), we have us a felony.  For me the movie ends thusly.

 

Johnny: Nobody puts Baby in a corner.

Jake: No, but somebody puts Johnny in a cell.  Cuff 'em, Ray.

Me: Yes! Yes! You go, Lenny Briscoe!

 

 

But henri, they were in love.  

 

I didn't exactly hate the movie, but it left me totally flat.  IIRC, Baby walks into the workers' party, sees a bunch of couples grabbing each others' asses and doing early versions of freak dancing, and is entranced.  WTF?  

 

Another movie I nearly fell asleep in was Moonstruck.  Give me the back-stabbing, lying, thieving cutthroats of Survivor any day. 

[Special K]

Full disclosure: I fucking hate this movie, all men do.  Two girlfriends and my now-wife made me watch it and it was beyond enduring.

 

I'm among your biggest fans, henripootel, but you let this happen three times!?!   Fool me once, etc...

[BigRedCheese]

Oh my God, Moonstruck, I remember being so bored by that movie, it might still not be over. Dirty Dancing was ok I guess, I haven't seen in at least 25 years, any movie with Jerry Orbach in it can't be all bad.

[ljenkins782]

 

Age of consent in New York in 1963: 17.  Age of Francis 'Baby' Houseman in 1963: 16.  Unless Johnny Castle is 20 or less (unlikely), we have us a felony.  For me the movie ends thusly.

I'm pretty sure she was at least 17, if not 18. It was summer and she was going off to Mount Holyoke in the fall. ;) 

 

 

I tend to believe it's true because I could see Parvati and Russell doing this. This is someone who almost lost Micronesia because she couldn't be nice to Eliza and I think Eliza is pretty annoying.

She was pretty nasty to Jerri in the beginning of HvVs, but she managed to work with her in the end. I think if Eliza had figured into her plans, she would have found a way to be nicer. 

 

I could see her lording it over the Heroes at least a couple times because they were on the wrong end of the numbers and she didn't need them (right then, she needed them at FTC but might not have completely thought that through.) She might have expected just enough of them to respect her game enough to look past some of her actions, which is what happened in Micronesia. She squeaked out a win after having treated some of the jury very poorly. 

 

That being said, I don't think she sat around reading it over and over and over.

 

 

2) JT wasn't the only one who decided to slip the idol to Russell.  The entire Heroes tribe went along with it.  We see the danger of groupthink, something the heroes repeatedly slid into that season.

IIRC, Candice and Amanda were both hesitant, if not flat out against this move, it was the men who were so certain that they knew what was going on at the Villains tribe. Rupert's smug certainty ("That women's alliance is looking pretty strong, Jeff..) on this matter was one of the main reasons I looked forward to the spectacular failure of the Heroes' big move. 

 

Just finished up Nicaragua, that season got pretty good in the end. Jane blowing up the tribal council on her way out was great and maybe lit the fire under Fabio to win those last few immunities because he didn't quite seem to realize how much he needed it until that point. 

 

He was such a goofball, but pretty entertaining and I liked him more than the smarmy Sash and clueless Chase so I was happy with his win.

 

The simultaneous quit of NaOnka and Kelly Purple was amazing. I knew NaOnka quit but Kelly Purple's legacy is clearly a void so I never knew 2 people left at once. 

 

This one might belong in the UO thread, but I didn't hate NaOnka as much as her legacy had me expecting to. I was also surprised at how relatively well she fit in with much of the tribe, for such an abrasive person, she had decent relationships out there. I did think she was an asshole for going on that last reward before quitting, but the sheer nerve of it sort of made me laugh too. 

[KimberStormer]

Full disclosure: I fucking hate this movie, all men do.  

 

[kikaha]

I'm among your biggest fans, henripootel, but you let this happen three times!?!   Fool me once, etc...

Special K, you see what lengths we men go to for the women we love/desire/lust. 

 

chocolatechip, I listened to Sandra's interview on RHAP.  She said exactly what you remembered.  If that's so, Parv shot herself in the foot and maybe the head. 

 

Kimber, boys will be boys, even when we're old men, to our last breath.  And that often means being pretty stupid about women.  

[henripootel]

I'm among your biggest fans, henripootel, but you let this happen three times!?!   Fool me once, etc...

I'm with kikaha - I endured way worse for the chance at nookie.  I listened to 3 hours of bad poetry in a graveyard, learned french, even hung out with a girl's hardcore granola friends who talked ENDLESS shit, mostly with the same aim I had.  What can I say - I was a feckless youth, and hey, I can still get by in french.

The simultaneous quit of NaOnka and Kelly Purple was amazing.

I actually kinda enjoyed that, mostly because Probst didn't even bother to hide his disgust.  Don't know about Purple Kelly but NaOnka seemed to be a clear plant, cast as 'the troublemaker' and a bit OTT even for someone playing a character.  How long did it take her to 'get angry' and start doing 'outrageous' things like dumping food on the ground?  Like 20 seconds after they got to camp?

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Full disclosure: I fucking hate this movie, all men do.

I hate it too - one of the advantages of being a woman is that nobody I've been interested in sleeping with has ever forced me to watch it, not even the girls :)

 

 

I actually kinda enjoyed that, mostly because Probst didn't even bother to hide his disgust

That was my feeling too - I like when the show hates the hateable players.  The big BOO about Naonko and Purple Kelly is that they weren't banned from the jury.

Edited July 3, 2015 by ratgirlagogo

[Trick Question]

I still can't see what Lex and Kathy were thinking when they kept Amber and voted Jeri out.  Later, they claimed they did it out of friendship for Rob but during they game they both had talking heads in which they claimed it was good strategy.  Either way, there was never going to be any other result, it was never going to get them to the end of the game.  I had forgotten how visibly shaken Rob was by the jury's scorn and indignation at the final tc.

.....

Anyway, Chris was also very, very good at jury management and at the final tribal council.  Through Season 9, I've found him to be the most impressive winner so far because of his dramatic come-from-behind victory and manipulation of the personalities around him.

 

It apparently didn't quite dawn on Rob how poorly breaking his "pre-game promise" with Kathy, Tom and Lex was going to go.  I can understand why the three of them would be so irate if they'd planned this whole alliance weeks or months in advance only to have Rob dump them in favour of Amber as soon as they were out there.

 

Chris is one of those great winners who's been essentially forgotten by Survivor history.  This guy was a brilliant talker...his work in that final jury speech buttering up Eliza and Julie was a masterwork in total horsecrap and yet it worked.  I would absolutely love to see him play again since I think he'd pull a Sandra and go very deep again, and maybe even win. 

[Trick Question]

The other interesting twist about JT's HvV strategy was that, in a sense, he had nothing to lose.  He'd already won the show once, put a million dollars in the bank...why NOT switch things up just for novelty, if nothing else?  That said, JT was able to last as long as he did since his tribe was more focused on taking out the unlikable dead weight (Sugar, Steph), then the major threats (Cirie, Tom) and then injured James, so he was able to stick around until the merge.

 

Just assuming for shits and giggles that Survivor is not directed by crop-circle aliens placing their instructions to Probst in coded Craigslist posts, here's how JT's move had potential to me.

......

The idol is dangerous to own: a symbol of distrust, rather than trust as in Tocantins.  How can he use it to further his goals in the game, while at the same time reestablishing the trust of the Heroes?  By giving it away.

........

So JT, in an unprecedentedly creative (yes yes, perhaps producer-directed, but if so why even watch, idgi) brainwave, inspired perhaps by Brendan's similarly brilliant and delightful but failed Exile Alliance, decides to kill all the birds with one green jade stone.....He takes out Parvati--this is his specific instruction to Russell in the famous letter--which will not only be universally popular among the Heroes, but also is personally helpful to him, as he surely feels Parv is a threat to him especially as the most prominent "alpha male" left in the game (and how right he is.)  He wins over a helpful pawn in Russell as an unthinkably generous savior and fellow southerner--very very good for JT to have another number specifically on his side, since he is such an unavoidably visible challenge and jury threat.  And he does it all in what would surely have gone down in history as one of the most dazzling moves ever in the history of Survivor, a spectacular entry on his FTC resume.  He comes to the merge with Rupert and Colby (useless chumps), Candice (disliked), Amanda (easily painted a flipping threat), and his ace in the hole Russell, against the profoundly unthreatening foursome of Jerri, Danielle, Courtney, and Sandra?  Hell yes I'd take that risk, if I were him.  He can beat any of them at the final tribal and has plenty of avenues of attack to get there.

Except if there actually had been a women's alliance, what's to stop Jerri/Danielle/Courtney/Sandra at that point from recruiting Candice and Amanda?  I think they'd both be game if it meant taking out JT, who at that point would be by far the biggest immunity threat in the game; they'd all turn on him as soon he lost a challenge.  (Hell, Russell probably turns on him too, just to eliminate a threat.)  Or, since JT was clearly overthinking things to a major degree, he probably cannibalizes his own Heroes alliance first to take out the 'bigger threats' of Colby or Amanda and there's a very solid chance that Sandra (flying under the radar again) sneaks her way into a final three with Russell and JT and easily wins another final jury vote.  "Spectacular FTC resume" aside, that wouldn't change the fact that JT was rubbing everyone the wrong way.  In the scenario Sandra getting votes from Parvati, Danielle, Courtney, Rupert and at least one of Amanda or Candice, so she'd win again.

 

There were just so many risks involved in JT's "give the idol to Russell" plan that it wasn't worth doing.  There was only one scenario where everything would fall into place, and a hundred scenarios where something would backfire. 

[loki567]

 

Except if there actually had been a women's alliance, what's to stop Jerri/Danielle/Courtney/Sandra at that point from recruiting Candice and Amanda?

 

You take out Parvati there's no bridge between Amanda/Candice and Jerri/Courtney/Sandra. I'm assuming from JT's mind, Amanda and Candice don't flip simply because they're women if they don't feel like a women's alliance wouldn't put them in a better spot at the end of the game. This clip can kinda show why JT made the move that he did:

 

 

"I don't want Parvati to go. She's one of my options. And now that she's going, I have less options on the other side to get rid of JT with. So for me, it's not... JT's taking out my people." 

Edited July 6, 2015 by loki567

[KimberStormer]

Can I just say it's really satisfying and refreshing to talk about that crazy move seriously instead of just "HAHA WHAT AN ULTRAMAROON HE GAVE HIS IDOL TO RUSSELL"?  I love you guys.

 

I think yeah my assumption is the male Heroes were hoping that Parvati was the keystone of a precarious arch like she was in Micronesia.  (And it's sort of true; what did even Danielle and Russell have in common but her?)  And it seems to me that it's hard to recruit people without a charismatic center--Courtney could talk to her Amanda, for example, but is Courtney known for building coalitions?  Can Jerri win over Candice?  Danielle somehow alienates everyone.  It's interesting to consider who is good at joining alliances, being part of alliances, and who is good at making them.  I think really rather than the Villain women recruiting Amanda, the threat would be Amanda recruiting them, as she apparently planned (but not as a women's alliance, rather sticking with Colby for some reason).

 

In my post for simplicity's sake I didn't mention it but this video does remind me that Amanda was the other Hero playing the game.  I respect Amanda as a player; not a great player, but a player.  (This video also shows why she brought pen and paper as luxury item; she wanted to write down her strategy ideas, which I understand because I am also not great at keeping this sort of complexity in my head without writing things down, but on the other hand, what happens if someone else reads your notes, Amanda???)  She had I think rather a bad set-up in HvV, a bad tribe for her, and bad luck in James's injury.  Another secret scene between her and Parvati post-merge illustrates a demoralizing/humiliating attempt to keep playing and win Parv over even in a hopeless situation, and of course the undignified idol-clue battle is another example.  I respect this dogged endurance.  Poor Amanda.

[Skeeter22]

I can never be mad at JT's time on HvsV if only because he was the only hero to come out and say that he wasn't going to play like a hero again. All the others really bought into their hero label, and tried to pretend their motives were about loyalty and competition instead of obvious self-interest.

I'm not one to praise Rupert, but he made a real attempt at playing the game after the merge. His idol fakeout was hilarious because it was so obvious and it still worked. Rupert outwitted Russell. That really should be enough to counter any argument that Russell was good at Survivor. I also love that Sandra knew Rupert didn't have the idol, but she let the whole thing play out anyway.

Candice is the one who really screwed the heroes. JT's move was a risk that got himself voted out, but Candice's flip sank the heroes.

[BK1978]

I was thinking about this the other day but I wonder if Kass kind of figured out that she was not going to win her season so she just decided to troll the season.  I mean it looked like Tasha and Spencer were clearly not going to take her side so she flipped and after that she seemed to take pleasure in sort of trolling  the rest of the people by doing whatever she wanted to do.

 

If I knew I was viewed as a goat and had no chance of winning I would do the same thing.  I would intentionally screw with others and do what I wanted because there is a good chance of finishing in second place and getting a good pay check in the process.

[Donny Ketchum]

I can never be mad at JT's time on HvsV if only because he was the only hero to come out and say that he wasn't going to play like a hero again. All the others really bought into their hero label, and tried to pretend their motives were about loyalty and competition instead of obvious self-interest.

I can.  As has been said more than once, nobody ended up trusting him.  At all.  On either tribe.  If you play in such a way that no one trusts you from very early on, you fucked up.  Plain and simple.  That is nothing to give any credit for.  Nothing at all.

[ljenkins782]

So I watched Brandon Hantz's return season a week or so ago and  while his meltdown was disturbing, he WAS dealing with Phillip and he just didn't seem as awful as what I'd heard. 

 

However, I just watched the first episode of South Pacific and holy shit, his treatment of Mikayla is one of the creepiest things I've ever seen on this show. It reminds me of that news story where a dentist fired his dental assistant because he was afraid he might have an affair with her (she was both married AND not interested, but a judge upheld his right to fire her without cause in order to "save his family.") 

 

Also, I'm not seeing what he's seeing AT ALL. He keeps calling her Parvati (well, Poverty, but I assume he means Parvati) and saying she has all the men except for him wrapped around her little finger. I'm not seeing a single guy wrapped around her finger and in fact, it doesn't seem like any guy is paying attention to her EXCEPT for Brandon. The editing really enhances the creepy too, his weird voiceovers over shots of him staring at her from behind the trees, etc. So very creepy. I'm only 1 and a half episodes in so I'm assuming it's going to get worse. 

 

And he comes off WAY, WAY crazier in this short period than he seemed for his whole time on his second season, possibly including his meltdown. At least then he was angry crazy, this crazy is quieter, more religion-themed, and more disturbing. 

Edited July 7, 2015 by ljenkins782

[Trick Question]

You take out Parvati there's no bridge between Amanda/Candice and Jerri/Courtney/Sandra. I'm assuming from JT's mind, Amanda and Candice don't flip simply because they're women if they don't feel like a women's alliance wouldn't put them in a better spot at the end of the game. This clip can kinda show why JT made the move that he did:

 

"I don't want Parvati to go. She's one of my options. And now that she's going, I have less options on the other side to get rid of JT with. So for me, it's not... JT's taking out my people." 

One 'fewer' option is not 'no options.'  Courtney and Amanda played together in China, Sandra has proven she's more than willing to build bridges to advance her own game, and just in general, this hypothetical Courtney/Sandra/Jerri/Danielle combo would be open to anything to keep them from getting Pagong'ed by the male heroes and Russell.

[fishcakes]

However, I just watched the first episode of South Pacific and holy shit, his treatment of Mikayla is one of the creepiest things I've ever seen on this show.

 

I also had the impression that Brandon was weird, intense, creepy and, most of all, delusional with respect to Mikayla when that season was airing. But seeing the graphic sex tweets between Mikayla and Russell after she was voted out and then learning recently that she and Russell had an affair that they made no secret of makes me think that Brandon's take on her might have been exaggerated but not entirely off-base and that she got a really good edit precisely so they could make him look insane and then give him a redemption arc. (Of course that fell apart when he decided in his second season to play it as Batty McShiterson.) After Mikayla was gone, Brandon seemed fairly normal and even somewhat sympathetic.

 

The truth is probably somewhere in between. I don't think Mikayla was the Jezebel Brandon kept saying she was, but I also don't think she was as innocent as she came across. She probably did try to do some flirting and manipulating that was never shown (probably because it didn't work on anyone), and Brandon, being really young, kind of stupid, and with more emotional problems than average overreacted. Even in his second season I don't think he was that crazy; I think it was more that Russell gave him so much shit publicly for trying to play an honorable game (and thus "redeem the Hantz name," which, heh, no one cares) that he again overreacted and decided to act like a dirtbag, which is why they got rid of him.

Edited July 7, 2015 by fishcakes

[Donny Ketchum]

However, I just watched the first episode of South Pacific and holy shit, his treatment of Mikayla is one of the creepiest things I've ever seen on this show. It reminds me of that news story where a dentist fired his dental assistant because he was afraid he might have an affair with her (she was both married AND not interested, but a judge upheld his right to fire her without cause in order to "save his family.") 

 

Also, I'm not seeing what he's seeing AT ALL. He keeps calling her Parvati (well, Poverty, but I assume he means Parvati) and saying she has all the men except for him wrapped around her little finger. I'm not seeing a single guy wrapped around her finger and in fact, it doesn't seem like any guy is paying attention to her EXCEPT for Brandon. The editing really enhances the creepy too, his weird voiceovers over shots of him staring at her from behind the trees, etc. So very creepy. I'm only 1 and a half episodes in so I'm assuming it's going to get worse.

The thing that got me all rage-y over the whole thing was that after Brandon lambasted Mikayla and we briefly saw her off by herself, crying, trying to collect herself, we didn't get a single confessional on her feelings of the whole thing.  No, no.  The editors made that all about Brandon and his feelings.  He gave yet another one of his "Waaaahhhh!  I don't wanna be Uncle Russell!" confessionals.  Yet nothing from Mikayla, the young woman he'd just verbally attacked for no discernible reason at all?  Just from the one who did the attacking?  Ugh!

 

That's fucked up, though, to hear that Mikayla actually went anywhere near Russell.  Makes anything positive I'd thought about her go out the window.

[kikaha]

And he comes off WAY, WAY crazier in this short period than he seemed for his whole time on his second season, possibly including his meltdown. At least then he was angry crazy, this crazy is quieter, more religion-themed, and more disturbing. 

 

A number of contestants that season, including Sophie, said Brandon would have won, if he'd made FTC.  They described him with glowing adjectives: sounded like he was the most popular player out there.  Several disconnects wrt him that season.

[loki567]

Which always creeps me the hell out. How nice could Brandon be that people would forgive the slut shaming/temper tantrums? I would only need to see that once before I was like, "Let's kick him the hell out of here." I don't understand how people could tolerate his anti-bullying bullying. 

 

He came off so bad that I was completely on PHILLIP'S side when he basically decided he wanted him gone right away, even at the risk of throwing a challenge. 

[BigRedCheese]

I've always taken their willing to vote for Brandon as them sort of feeling sorry for the little wacko, and how much they must have not cared for Sophie. Even though they say that, there's a difference in talking about it at Ponderosa, and actually writing his name down to win a million dollars, I really  just can't believe he would have won, at the very least, he would have had melt down at Final Tribal as soon as somebody asked him a tough question, and they would have come to their senses. At least I have to let myself believe that, lol.

[choclatechip45]

 

Which always creeps me the hell out. How nice could Brandon be that people would forgive the slut shaming/temper tantrums? I would only need to see that once before I was like, "Let's kick him the hell out of here." I don't understand how people could tolerate his anti-bullying bullying.

I know Mikayla said in her RHAP interview she had no idea about his creepy crush on her until the show aired.