S04.E09: The Watchers On The Wall 2014.06.08

[Jean]

That was some awesome cinematography for a tv show. Color me impressed. I was expecting to be bored because Jon and his wall is the least interesting arc for me but I was glad to have a small breather from the palace intrigue stuff. Too much of a good thing and all. That said this didn't feel like the penultimate episode. I didn't get a sense of any buildup to the finale.

[Ace]

 

I saw quite a bit in this episode. It actually surprises me to hear some people found it boring!  Jon became a leader, the rest of the crows (rapists, thieves, criminals) became heroes, we lost 2 out of 4 of Jon's closest friends, jerky-face commander redeemed himself and taught Jon what it's like to truly be a leader, and there was quite a bit of action and fantastic cinematography!

 

I enjoyed the fighting too. It was great to get a battle scenario again, its been too long and the good guys won. The Wildings destroyed everything in their path. I'm hoping the WW group wipes every Wilding out beyond the wall, its what they deserve. They aren't acting like people just trying to save themselves. They are murderous berserkers.

 

I suspect the attack on the wall was a diversion and Mance's army are streaming over some unprotected part of the wall miles away. If not its just another conceptual flaw.

 

The weird horror music they played when the attack started took me out of the scene. It was so out of place.

 

The acting commander Thorne didn't redeem himself at all. What he did was too little too late. He showed that he wasn't a coward but he is a terrible leader. He was inactive and unprepared. He is responsible for all the deaths in the villages and hole town surrounding Castle Black. He did nothing to warn them or stop the Wildings rampaging through the country side. when warned of their presence by John. He is responsible for every Night's Watch death in the attack. They should have been on high alert and laid in wait for the Wildings. They even new the signal for the attack. The Wildings had no element of surprise, thanks to John's reconnaissance. But Thorne ignored it all and gives a  'come on, let's get 'em'  speech when the castle has been invaded. The Night's Watch should have been at the walls with crossbows and spears ready for a turkey shoot. Not fighting a disorganized, poorly armed (for assaulting a castle) rabble hand-to hand. Castle Black is actually a castle with walls and a gate. The Wildings wouldn't have been able to breach their defences if not for Thornes mismanagement.

 

John's first leadership role was in planing and executing the successful attack on the deserters at Craster's keep. It was natural that he would take the reins in this battle at some point. The cowardly behaviour of the ex-King's Guard commander was strange and really just a contrived means for John to take charge. Its a pity he didn't stay on the wall cowering in the background and the giants arrow could have  taken him out instead of someone who actually was fighting.

 

I'm glad to see the back of the Ginger Wilding girl, terrible actress and terrible character.  I wish she hadn't gotten an improbable extended last scene where time stopped in the middle of a raging battle.

 

It was great to see ghost in action, but when did he/she start eating people. Maybe its a continuation from Craster's Keep. The only problem with having ghost join the battle on his/her own was how would ghost know friend (Night's Watch) from foe (Wiidings)

 

The scene with The Six in the tunnel facing a charging giant was great. But I didn't notice the giant carrying a weapon, so its strange that none of the The Six survived.

 

(Further thoughts on the tunnels and the wall are in the speculation thread)

[CletusMusashi]

I figure that they either weren't feeding Ghost properly (in which case: You know better, Jon Snow! I'm pretty sure you could easily smuggle some meat to one of your best living friends!) or... yeah, I got nothing. Ghost shouldn't have been that starving. Not with Sam, Jon, and whoever else he's on friendly-dog terms with looking out for him. Maybe Janos Slynt was blowing a lot of pot smoke at him before the battle?

[Lady S.]

Robb also brought Grey Wind into battle with him, though we only saw him in action once in s2. I guess he must have trained Grey Wind to know Lannister soldiers, so maybe Jon was training Ghost behind Alliser's back? Idk but I just really like seeing direwolves kill people.

[terrymct]

I think whoever Aemon was talking about might be a teeny bit too old to be Jon's mother considering Jon was a teenager at the start of the series.

 

 

Aemon also said he was young when he was in love.  Ned Stark's sister was probably within a few years of his age.  Aemon in his youth would have been a whole generation ahead of them.

[seacliffsal]

Ace, I agree with all of your insights.  Thorne was too busy asserting his authority over Jon (while trying to humiliate him in the process) to even hear what Jon was saying.  Kind of like Slynt "there are no giants" as he's looking at them-Thorne was denying any aspect of reality in order to be 'right.'  Even blocking the tunnel as Jon suggested would not have been difficult and would have started preparing their defenses, but he just wouldn't listen.  Even Thorne's comment to Jon that a leader has everyone second guessing him shows Thorne's real priority-himself and his authority.  Truly great leaders listen to others and adjust plans based on new intelligence.  Even when he told Jon that Jon was right, they were alone and so he did not 'lose face' in front of any of the men.  Self-serving.  And it really wasn't just an age prejudice as he tried to actively reject advice that Aemon gave to him.

 

Good riddance.  Hopefully, Jon will really step up as a leader-I like the character and I like to look at the actor (yes, I said it), but I hope that he starts delivering more powerful and nuanced performances.  

[paigow]

Ned Stark's mysterious and beloved sister might have gotten up to something.

Is Ned the undisputed biological father of Jon Snow? Cat believed that he was. Did Ned lie to her? Do Ned and Jamie have more in common than we think? 

[terrymct]

Is Ned the undisputed biological father of Jon Snow? Cat believed that he was. Did Ned lie to her? Do Ned and Jamie have more in common than we think? 

 

Ned brought Jon Snow home to Winterfell and presented him as his bastard son.   It was a bit of a shock because no one, including his wife, expected him of all people to have a bastard son.   Ned was filled to the brim with honor, so it seems more likely that rather than actually having a bastard son that he claimed Jon was his bastard to cover for someone or to hide the kid's real roots.

[dizzyd]

The situation with the White Walkers has obviously made the Wildlings extremely desperate, and I sympathize with their predicament.  The Thenns need to be scoured from the earth, they are human monsters, even the other Wildlings seem appalled by them.  But everyone else, including the Giants and the Mammoths, are just desperately running from their lives and trying to escape White Walkers.  The Wall is keeping them trapped and will kill them all if they can't get past it.  It's very difficult, and Ygritte's been in an extremely difficult spot.

I really liked your post.  For non book readers like me, it is nice to read this thread to understand the Wildlings perspective, which has not been portrayed well on the show.  Even the show has stressed from the beginning how important the Wall and the threat from the White Walkers is, but I wish the show had depicted the reason for the Wildlings urgency to escape the North better on the show.  They touched upon it a little with Osha and Mance, but that was lost in the grand scheme of things to where anyone Unsullied is not going to understand them and will just view them as 100% baddies.  With all the boring time we've spent North of the Wall, the show could have done a better job of this to make it more interesting. 

[Starving Writer]

Ned brought Jon Snow home to Winterfell and presented him as his bastard son.   It was a bit of a shock because no one, including his wife, expected him of all people to have a bastard son.   Ned was filled to the brim with honor, so it seems more likely that rather than actually having a bastard son that he claimed Jon was his bastard to cover for someone or to hide the kid's real roots.

I would need to go back and re-check, but I vaguely remember watching Season 1 and noting that Ned Stark repeatedly told Jon Snow "You are a Stark" but never once told him "You are my son."  I remember thinking "wait, is Ned really Jon's father?"  The last conversation Ned had with Jon, Ned told Jon that he'd tell the truth about Jon's mother "the next time they met, promise." Of course poor Ned got his head chopped off before that happened.  But I found it interesting that Ned wouldn't tell Jon about his mother until after Jon had joined the Night's Watch (and therefore gave up all claims to any lands).  

 

Makes perfect sense if Jon is really the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.  Jon, being the son of Lyanna, is still a Stark.  And once he joins the NIght's Watch, he automatically gives up any claim on any land or titles he could've gotten as the son of Rhaegar -- including the Iron Throne.  Ned was too freaking honorable to actually have an affair, but he's also honorable enough to not want his innocent nephew to be needlessly slaughtered by Robert.  Hence the cover-up and claiming that Jon Snow was his own bastard.  

 

And to bring this back on topic ... it seems likely that Jon Snow will probably end up being the Commander of the Night's Watch as a result of this episode's events.  What happens if he finds out his true parentage and that he could be a heir to the Iron Throne, being the eldest son of the eldest son of the Mad King.  (Granted, him being a bastard might disqualify him anyway.)  Will he abandon Night's Watch to try and seize the Iron Throne?  Will Stannis recognize Jon Snow's as the true heir and give up on his own attempts (or would Jon Snow's bastard-ness and/or the fact that Robert won the Iron Throne via conquest be reason enough for Stannis to continue)?  Will the Red Witch try to add Jon Snow to her list of conquests (much like she tried to do with Gendry) since he'd have a king's blood flowing through him?  If Jon and Danys ever meet up, will sparks fly as a result?  Since Jon is the Mad King's grandson, is he immune to fire too like Danys is?  

[LadyArcadia]

The acting commander Thorne didn't redeem himself at all.

 

I disagree, I believe Thorne did redeem himself.  No doubt he made countless mistakes up to this point, but he acknowledged the mistakes and tried to make it right.  That is the definition of redemption. If he did everything right in the first place, there would be no redemption needed. ;-)

 

He also explained why he is who he is and does what he does. Being a leader is not as easy as it seems.

 

I'm very interested to see his fate and what will happen next.

 

The cowardly behaviour of the ex-King's Guard commander was strange and really just a contrived means for John to take charge.

 

I thought it was pretty well established that he lacks integrity and is a coward.

Tyrion Lannister: I'm not questioning your honor, Lord Janos. I'm denying its existence.

 

What happens if he finds out his true parentage and that he could be a heir to the Iron Throne, being the eldest son of the eldest son of the Mad King.

 

I might have this completely wrong, but I thought Raegar was the brother of the Mad King?

 

ETA: Ah, yes.. Drogo.  I had it wrong. So confusing!

Edited June 11, 2014 by LadyArcadia

[Drogo]

Rhaegar was Dany's brother, the Mad King's son.  His children and wife were the ones the Mountain killed. 

 

"The last time I was in the capital was many years ago. Another wedding. My sister Elia and Rhaegar Targaryen, the Last Dragon. My sister loved him. She bore his children. Swaddled them, rocked them, fed them at her own breast. Elia wouldn't let the wet nurse touch them. And beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen... left her for another woman. That started a war, and the war ended right here, when your father's army took the city." - Oberyn to Tyrion

 

Makes perfect sense if Jon is really the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.  Jon, being the son of Lyanna, is still a Stark.  And once he joins the NIght's Watch, he automatically gives up any claim on any land or titles he could've gotten as the son of Rhaegar -- including the Iron Throne.

 

Even if those were his parents, he would still be a bastard son of a prince, while Dany is the trueborn daughter of a king.  Seems like a lot of speculation for nothing.  I can't feel too invested in Ned's sister or Rhaegar since we never met either. 

Edited June 11, 2014 by Drogo

[TexasChic]

 

Even if those were his parents, he would still be a bastard son of a prince, while Dany is the trueborn daughter of a king.  Seems like a lot of speculation for nothing.  I can't feel too invested in Ned's sister or Rhaegar since we never met either.

 

Assuming those ARE his parents. I've always felt the Rhaegar & Lyanna scenario was a bit too easy.

Edited June 11, 2014 by TexasChic

[peggy06]

To elaborate a little more, another reason some may find the North boring is that Jon Snow, the pre-eminent Northern character to date, is right back where he was in Season 2, trying to assassinate Mance Rayder.  The only difference is that this time Jon's inability to kill Ygritte won't doom the mission to failure because she's already dead.  Qhorrin proposed assassinating Mance back in Episode 5 of Season 2, and Jon failed to execute Ygritte in the subsequent episode.  So, not only are the Walkers apparently going around in circles, so is Jon's story line.

This was one of my complaints last week. After considerable build-up, Tyrion's situation is back where it was before he demanded trial by combat. And nothing really to show for it despite several episodes having elapsed. Maybe this is GRRM's MO - maybe that's why the books are so long. :)

[Rocket]

Well at least Dany would have a member of the family to marry if Jon is a Targ, only a first cousin, but that will have to do until their children get to marry each other. Assuming Dany is not really cursed or gets the curse lifted. 

[Taget]

I would need to go back and re-check, but I vaguely remember watching Season 1 and noting that Ned Stark repeatedly told Jon Snow "You are a Stark" but never once told him "You are my son."  I remember thinking "wait, is Ned really Jon's father?"  The last conversation Ned had with Jon, Ned told Jon that he'd tell the truth about Jon's mother "the next time they met, promise." Of course poor Ned got his head chopped off before that happened.  But I found it interesting that Ned wouldn't tell Jon about his mother until after Jon had joined the Night's Watch (and therefore gave up all claims to any lands).  

 

Makes perfect sense if Jon is really the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.  Jon, being the son of Lyanna, is still a Stark.  And once he joins the NIght's Watch, he automatically gives up any claim on any land or titles he could've gotten as the son of Rhaegar -- including the Iron Throne.  Ned was too freaking honorable to actually have an affair, but he's also honorable enough to not want his innocent nephew to be needlessly slaughtered by Robert.  Hence the cover-up and claiming that Jon Snow was his own bastard.  

 

And to bring this back on topic ... it seems likely that Jon Snow will probably end up being the Commander of the Night's Watch as a result of this episode's events.  What happens if he finds out his true parentage and that he could be a heir to the Iron Throne, being the eldest son of the eldest son of the Mad King.  (Granted, him being a bastard might disqualify him anyway.)  Will he abandon Night's Watch to try and seize the Iron Throne?  Will Stannis recognize Jon Snow's as the true heir and give up on his own attempts (or would Jon Snow's bastard-ness and/or the fact that Robert won the Iron Throne via conquest be reason enough for Stannis to continue)?  Will the Red Witch try to add Jon Snow to her list of conquests (much like she tried to do with Gendry) since he'd have a king's blood flowing through him?  If Jon and Danys ever meet up, will sparks fly as a result?  Since Jon is the Mad King's grandson, is he immune to fire too like Danys is?  

 

You bring up a few interesting points.

 

1) The Lyanna / Rhaegar theory is one I had in the back of my head for a bit. Since otherwise it really would not be THAT big of a deal to tell him who his mother was. But alas of course Ned lost his head so we won't know.

 

2) Given Jon just left pretty much without warning and without permission from anyone he is probably more at risk of being tried again as a deserter than being declared Commander of the Night's Watch. Assuming Ser Aleister is dead probably Janos Slynt gets it. First since he's the one with the most command experience who is actually available. And second because he is absolutely the worst person to put in charge and this is Game of Thrones where cowardice and treachery are rewarded.

 

3) I am not sure how much further the Night's Watch as an institution is going to go. Before this battle they had 102 black brothers at Castle Black. Given they probably lost double that in the last battle they are hurting for manpower and due to the collapse of the north and the Lannister disdain for them will probably not receive any new recruits they are now at best an impotent force. Then you have Stannis eventually coming to the wall who may well start burning anyone who doesn't agree with his particular god and I don't see a bright future for their continuation as an organized force.

 

So I don't necessarily see it as out of the question that Jon might be seeking other employment in the future.

 

4) That said if we are going to go by legalism... and let's be honest legalism actually does not matter since all legal questions are in the end settled by whoever commands the biggest army... Jon is a bastard who is not in line to inherit anything until he is legitimized by his King or his Lord. Ned never legitimized Jon (and probably for good reason since it may have put him ahead of Robb in the succession for Winterfell) and I am not sure Ned accepting him as a Stark clears the way at all for him to be accepted as a Targaryen (assuming the Lyanna theory pans out). And certainly Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen haven't legitimized him. I guess in Westeros there might be others who might be able to theoretically do so such as clergy and Jon could always claim that Ned "secretly" legitimized him. But Stannis being a legal stickler would not accept that.

 

The more likely scenario if this is true since this is Game of Thrones and we know not to expect faerie tale endings.  Lady Melisandre LOVES orphan bastards with "king's blood" and this revelation guarantees Jon some really grisly death as he is sacrificed to the red god the way Gendry was suppose to.

[CletusMusashi]

That, or... you know... more cave sex.

[ambi76]

Well at least Dany would have a member of the family to marry if Jon is a Targ, only a first cousin, but that will have to do until their children get to marry each other. Assuming Dany is not really cursed or gets the curse lifted.

 

 

No, Dany would be Jon's aunt if Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna. The confusion comes from Rhaegar being almost a whole generation older than his siblings Viserys and Daenerys.

Edited June 11, 2014 by ambi76

[Mz Anthrope]

That, or... you know... more cave sex.

Don't bears hibernate in caves?  ;-)

[iMonrey]

Actually, I'll bet the biggest part of defense usually consists of reminding everybody to shut the damn door.

 

From what I could tell, all they ever did was send Rangers north of the wall to scout around and check up on the various Wildling tribes to see what they were up to. It wasn't until Jon arrived that they started hearing something big was happening up north.

 

I believe in Aemon's day the Targaryens were only interested in other Targaryens.

 

Well, Rhaegar's wife was married to a Martell, so at some point they must have stopped inter-marrying.

 

Good-bye, Ygritte. In some other world you are a happy little secretary.

[Maximum Taco]

Well, Rhaegar's wife was married to a Martell, so at some point they must have stopped inter-marrying.

 

Rhaegar's only female sibling was Daenerys, and she was born after he had already had two children of his own.

 

At a certain point practicality has to set in. He might have married his sister if he had a sister who was only a few years younger/older than him.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[atomationage]

I want Dolorous Edd to be in charge of the NW.   I've liked the actor  in many different shows for a number of years.

[toesocks]

Makes perfect sense if Jon is really the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.  Jon, being the son of Lyanna, is still a Stark.  And once he joins the NIght's Watch, he automatically gives up any claim on any land or titles he could've gotten as the son of Rhaegar -- including the Iron Throne.  Ned was too freaking honorable to actually have an affair, but he's also honorable enough to not want his innocent nephew to be needlessly slaughtered by Robert.  Hence the cover-up and claiming that Jon Snow was his own bastard. 

 

Taking this to the speculation thread.

[SoWindsor]

I would need to go back and re-check, but I vaguely remember watching Season 1 and noting that Ned Stark repeatedly told Jon Snow "You are a Stark" but never once told him "You are my son."  I remember thinking "wait, is Ned really Jon's father?"  The last conversation Ned had with Jon, Ned told Jon that he'd tell the truth about Jon's mother "the next time they met, promise." Of course poor Ned got his head chopped off before that happened.  But I found it interesting that Ned wouldn't tell Jon about his mother until after Jon had joined the Night's Watch (and therefore gave up all claims to any lands).  

 

Makes perfect sense if Jon is really the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.  Jon, being the son of Lyanna, is still a Stark.  And once he joins the NIght's Watch, he automatically gives up any claim on any land or titles he could've gotten as the son of Rhaegar -- including the Iron Throne.  Ned was too freaking honorable to actually have an affair, but he's also honorable enough to not want his innocent nephew to be needlessly slaughtered by Robert.  Hence the cover-up and claiming that Jon Snow was his own bastard.  

 

And to bring this back on topic ... it seems likely that Jon Snow will probably end up being the Commander of the Night's Watch as a result of this episode's events.  What happens if he finds out his true parentage and that he could be a heir to the Iron Throne, being the eldest son of the eldest son of the Mad King.  (Granted, him being a bastard might disqualify him anyway.)  Will he abandon Night's Watch to try and seize the Iron Throne?  Will Stannis recognize Jon Snow's as the true heir and give up on his own attempts (or would Jon Snow's bastard-ness and/or the fact that Robert won the Iron Throne via conquest be reason enough for Stannis to continue)?  Will the Red Witch try to add Jon Snow to her list of conquests (much like she tried to do with Gendry) since he'd have a king's blood flowing through him?  If Jon and Danys ever meet up, will sparks fly as a result?  Since Jon is the Mad King's grandson, is he immune to fire too like Danys is?

Viserys was the Mad King's grandson and he was not immune to fire. Dany said it herself after Drogo killed him with the molten crown.

[paigow]

Ned was extremely fortunate that Jon looked more like Robb than Viserys to make any deception more credible.  However, I believe that any Targ - Stark bloodline for Jon is not likely.

[Nonlinear]

I do not like battle only episodes when there are just 10 episodes per season. I want to know about the many other characters and I feel next week they are just going to cram and end with a flying dragon and we have to wait another year.

 

So happy Ginge Minge is dead. I did not like that character at all and it was cheesy the way she died in his arms when all the fighting was going on.

[Ace]

 

 

CletusMusashi

Maybe Janos Slynt was blowing a lot of pot smoke at him before the battle?

Slynt must have been on something to act the way he did.

 

 

 

eacliffsal

Ace, I agree with all of your insights.  Thorne was too busy asserting his authority over Jon (while trying to humiliate him in the process) to even hear what Jon was saying.  Kind of like Slynt "there are no giants" as he's looking at them-Thorne was denying any aspect of reality in order to be 'right.'  Even blocking the tunnel as Jon suggested would not have been difficult and would have started preparing their defenses, but he just wouldn't listen.  Even Thorne's comment to Jon that a leader has everyone second guessing him shows Thorne's real priority-himself and his authority.  Truly great leaders listen to others and adjust plans based on new intelligence.  Even when he told Jon that Jon was right, they were alone and so he did not 'lose face' in front of any of the men.  Self-serving.  And it really wasn't just an age prejudice as he tried to actively reject advice that Aemon gave to him.

Good riddance.  Hopefully, Jon will really step up as a leader-I like the character and I like to look at the actor (yes, I said it), but I hope that he starts delivering more powerful and nuanced performances.

Excellent post. I completely agree, even Thorne's so-called apology was self-serving. Just like his so-called leadership was about securing power and belittling anyone he saw as a threat to that power.  Even his speech and fighting can be see as a way of maintaining his power should they survive the attack. He can claim he led the Night's Watch to victory. Hopefully, some murderous mutineer will behead him if he survived his injuries.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note: This thread is for discussion of epsiode 9. Posts discussing the Targaryen family tree have been moved to the House Targaryen: Fire and Blood topic.

[Jaded Sapphire]

 

Grenn Team Six

That is beautiful.

That was me!

I am entirely too geeked out that so many people liked it, Thanks guys/gals :-)  *Does happy dance*

 

*Ahem* Carry on...

Edited June 12, 2014 by Jaded Sapphire

[Drogo]

 

That was me! I am entirely too geeked out that so many people liked it, Thanks guys/gals :-)

 

Grenn Team Six is definitely a keeper.  Along with their Jolly Grenn Giant. 

[Patssy Stoned]

OK--no matter how embarrassing I have to admit:

 

I find Tywin strangely attractive.

 

that's all I got for this episode.{and Tywin wasn't even in it.]  That and I'm glad Ygrette is dead.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Patssy Stoned

[LitllBear]

I do not like battle only episodes when there are just 10 episodes per season. I want to know about the many other characters and I feel next week they are just going to cram and end with a flying dragon and we have to wait another year.

 

This exactly! I was really disappointed after watching this episode and realizing the whole show was devoted to the Wall battle. Not that it was entertaining but there is so many other story lines I would have rather have seen.

 

I like Sam so I wasn't too upset that he was in this episode so much. I even like Gilly so she didn't bother me either. Was so happy to see Ghost, even if it was just a few seconds. I guess I should have been upset that Ygritte died but it has been so long since she and John have been together I found myself just not caring. I think that is the side effect of only 10 episodes per season and so long a wait between seasons. I feel bad because I like the actress and I even like her and John together but like I said I just didn't care because it's been so long.

 

I think the last episode is going to be a let down in some way or another. I will hope for the best and try not to be too disappointed. In the meantime I have decided to read the books. I had read the first one after the first season, had started the second one but it didn't grab me so I set it aside. I will get back into it and read the rest. While being shocked and surprised by what happens (like the red wedding) is really great I am finding that to remain truly unspoiled is becoming a chore. Besides it will give me something to do while we have that long wait until the next season.

[insubordination]

 

I am finding that to remain truly unspoiled is becoming a chore

Oh yeah. I was on an advice page about noisy neighbours and someone wrote 'If they are watching GoT just yell out **************" (insert massive spoiler which I hope isn't true). I do love surprises though, so I'll try to remain spoiler-free.

 

I agree that next week will likely be a let-down, as there's too much to fit in 50 mins. Even though the season was only 10 episodes, it still feels like there was a lot of filler.

[atomationage]

I think the season finale is supposed to be over one hour.

[Mz Anthrope]

I think the season finale is supposed to be over one hour.

I hope that's actual program we get instead of preview of past episodes (which is what I fear we'll get)

[SoWindsor]

In the meantime I have decided to read the books. I had read the first one after the first season, had started the second one but it didn't grab me so I set it aside. I will get back into it and read the rest. While being shocked and surprised by what happens (like the red wedding) is really great I am finding that to remain truly unspoiled is becoming a chore. Besides it will give me something to do while we have that long wait until the next season.

I don't know if this is the right place to comment on this but I don't know where else to put it. I read up to 100 pages into book 4 and just didn't find myself enjoying the books. I love the show so much I want to be unspoiled for the show since in my opinion the show is better than the books.

Sounds like your experience has been similar. Hang in there on being unspoilered. I believe it's worth it.

[Isazouzi]

I haven't read the books and I'm not planning to read them until the show's over, but my friends who've read them said I probably won't enjoy them and find they move at a very slow pace because the show is much more action packed apparently.

 

TBH, I don't care about the books, I just hope GRRM manages to finish the saga before the show catches up to the books. Or that they (the producers and him) have a plan in case it happens. Or in case he dies (what? That could happen!)

Edited June 13, 2014 by Isazouzi

[Meredith Quill]

I haven't read the books and I'm not planning to read them until the show's over, but my friends who've read them said I probably won't enjoy them and find they move at a very slow pace because the show is much more action packed apparently.

 

TBH, I don't care about the books, I just hope GRRM manages to finish the saga before the show catches up to the books. Or that they (the producers and him) have a plan in case it happens. Or in case he dies (what? That could happen!)

 

D&D (the producers) met with GRRM last year for this very reason, and he told them where each character ends. So whilst they may not know exact details of the 'route' each character will take yet, (if the show overtakes the books), in theory they should all end up in the same place that GRRM intends.

[NoWillToResist]

 

That we saw.  For all we know, Ghost might've taken out a dozen, but the production budget being what it was, we only got to see him kill the one wildling.  Just like we only got one mammoth - those things are bloody expensive

 

But there are easy, low-budget ways to imply that Ghost was kicking ass: multiple off-screen wolf growls and human screams of pain, a character later congratulating Jon on how his wolf killed x number of men single-pawed etc.

 

 

I think if the giant had made it past Grenn Team Six (love that btw), he'd have already been rampaging in the courtyard, long before the battle ended.

 

But for all Jon knew, Grenn Team Six could have still been trying to hold the gate. It pissed me off that, once the main area was secured, he didn't run into the tunnel with reinforcements to check on that shit.

I think part of why I find the Northern scenes/episodes boring is the drab colour and landscape. It’s not pleasant to look at.

Edited June 13, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Drogo]

 

I agree that next week will likely be a let-down, as there's too much to fit in 50 mins. Even though the season was only 10 episodes, it still feels like there was a lot of filler.

 

The GoT finale has always been an episode where (most) loose ends are tied and promises for the future are made.   

 

Also, with such a limited penultimate landscape, there's a lot of ground to cover in other locales.  "Blackwater" was only KL,  and the finale that season was very satisfying what with Dany in the House of Undying and Arya's farewell to Jaqen Hagar.. this one should be good.  I'm hopeful.

 

 

I think part of why I find the Northern scenes/episodes boring is the drab colour and landscape. It’s not pleasant to look at.

 

I want to see frickin' Dorne already. 

Edited June 13, 2014 by Drogo

[Taget]

Slynt must have been on something to act the way he did.

 

Excellent post. I completely agree, even Thorne's so-called apology was self-serving. Just like his so-called leadership was about securing power and belittling anyone he saw as a threat to that power.  Even his speech and fighting can be see as a way of maintaining his power should they survive the attack. He can claim he led the Night's Watch to victory. Hopefully, some murderous mutineer will behead him if he survived his injuries.

 

I'd disagree.  Thorne made a bad decision but his overall thrust was correct.  The only thing worse than a wrong leader is a weak leader.  No matter what decisions you make you will be second guessed.  But if you're always second guessing yourself and always looking for approval and afraid of stepping on toes you are not going to do well.  At least in a job such as Lord Commander.  For someone as prone to sulking as Jon Snow that is GREAT advise.  If he ever did become Lord Commander given the horrible conditions he faces he is bound to make mistakes with horrible consequences.  And the only way he and the Night's Watch have a chance of persevering and surviving is to be thick skinned, learn from his experience, and try to project confidence and strength to his men.  Or in other words don't be Janos Slynt.  Who I am still predicting will be named Lord Commander btw.

 

I don't know if this is the right place to comment on this but I don't know where else to put it. I read up to 100 pages into book 4 and just didn't find myself enjoying the books. I love the show so much I want to be unspoiled for the show since in my opinion the show is better than the books.

Sounds like your experience has been similar. Hang in there on being unspoilered. I believe it's worth it.

 

I've been in between.  I read the books only up to where the tv show is.  Which in season 1 worked great.  In season 2 mostly worked.  In season 3 I had to stop when I reached Oberyn which was before the scenes portrayed in the season finale.  And this season I didn't get very far until I reached the attack Ygritte died so really barely read anything of what happened this season.  Which due to laziness and the general going ons of my life happens to some extent every season anyway.  The vast majority of my reading happens after the season finale.

 

It works since i have remained unspoiled in basically everything on the show.  Which I have enjoyed because on the whole the show does things better than the books do.  Though the media of television can be limiting.  Due to costs, castings, and the general confusion character inflation causes many things need to be simplified and consolidated.  Which can sometimes work great.  But sometimes can leave important points out.  But one beauty of the way the show has been presented, especially when they had the embedded commentary on HBOGo, is they can re-add the exposition and the explanations after the fact without bogging down the episode itself.

 

On the whole the show is at it's best when it relies on GRRM's material.  And oftentimes can take stuff that is so-so in the book and make it wonderful.  But when they veer off completely into their own imaginations it usually is inferior.

 

But one can be unspoiled and read.  It's just tricky.  But worth it since the show does such a wonderful job.  And then you can treat yourself to all the deails that were left out and the original construction of what transpired afterwards.

 

In episode like this one I was glad to not know before hand who won and not to know what happens now that Jon is going north.  It made for a much more enjoyable hour of television.  And I wouldn't be nearly as excited for this Sunday if I knew any of what I should expect.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Taget

[Popples]

OK--no matter how embarrassing I have to admit:

 

I find Tywin strangely attractive.

 

that's all I got for this episode.{and Tywin wasn't even in it.]  That and I'm glad Ygrette is dead.

 

There's nothing to be embarrassed about; Charles Dance is old enough to be my grandfather and he can totally get it. I was miffed when I didn't see his name in the opening credits.

 

I was always pretty indifferent to Ygrette, but when she killed Pyp I said that it was time for her to die in ALL the fires. RIP Pyp and Grenn (if all my GOT boyfriends keep dying, I'll never make the 8; hopefully Gendry is still alive somewhere).

[CletusMusashi]

But there are easy, low-budget ways to imply that Ghost was kicking ass: multiple off-screen wolf growls and human screams of pain, a character later congratulating Jon on how his wolf killed x number of men single-pawed etc.

Exactly. Season 2 has an opening where they do exactly that with Grey Wind, and it's awesome. In fact, the first two enemies that he kills are a couple of low-level grunts in the Lannister army, who have a completely normal non-evil conversation with each other for several minutes before the wolf jumps out and slaughters them.  My first thought re-watching it, was: "that was a great scene!" My second one was: better use of wolf attacks and remembering to keep the enemies human are two things that may be slipping now. Although I've seen both things fluctuate before. So I don't think there's a huge shark jump involved, just... I've got to bitch about something between episodes.

[Patssy Stoned]

woow hoo!  I just ordered seasons 1,2,3 from Amazon and plan on having a  great summer!!

 

Tyrion's fate better be reveled on Sunday.  I'm hoping Jaime tells Tywin he will leave the realm and decline the throne if his brother is injured/killed.

[Isazouzi]

Exactly. Season 2 has an opening where they do exactly that with Grey Wind, and it's awesome.

 

One of my favorite scenes. It really made you feel how big and dangerous direwolves are.

 

I've been in between.  I read the books only up to where the tv show is.  Which in season 1 worked great.  In season 2 mostly worked.  In season 3 I had to stop when I reached Oberyn which was before the scenes portrayed in the season finale. 

 

 

My understanding is that the show tells the story chronologically, whereas the books jump back and forth in the story, which is why book readers can be spoiled by the show. One season does not equal one book anymore.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Isazouzi

[SoWindsor]

Who pulled Sir Allister away? At first glance I thought it was the Nights Watch but then I saw a bald guy pulling him and associate bald with Thenns. And Sam did say Sir Allister has fallen. On first watch I thought he survived but on second I don't believe he did.

How did head Thenn know who Jon was? I can't imagine he knows what Jon looks like but he really went after him.

Did anyone notice the scary music was a distortion of the theme/opening credits song? Reminds me of what they did with the music in Inception.

I was so impressed by this episode. What they pulled off was incredible.

Jon Snow has always been a favorite for me so I've never been bored by his storyline like some others have been.

But there are easy, low-budget ways to imply that Ghost was kicking ass: multiple off-screen wolf growls and human screams of pain, a character later congratulating Jon on how his wolf killed x number of men single-pawed etc.

 

Good point. That would have worked because I too was wondering why Ghost seemed to be eating the one guy instead of going after more.

woow hoo!  I just ordered seasons 1,2,3 from Amazon and plan on having a  great summer!!

 .

You mean weekend ;-)

[Donny Ketchum]

Welp, someone here called it and the kid killed Ygritte.

I really think he should've killed the leader.  You know, the one who killed both his parents and told him to his face that he was going to eat them.  Instead, it seems the fat guy killed him.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Donny Ketchum

[MrWhyt]

 

really think he should've killed the leader.  You know, the one who killed both his parents and told him to his face that he was going to eat them.  Instead, it seems the fat guy killed them.

Jon killed the leader of the Thenns

[PeteMartell]

Exactly. Season 2 has an opening where they do exactly that with Grey Wind, and it's awesome. In fact, the first two enemies that he kills are a couple of low-level grunts in the Lannister army, who have a completely normal non-evil conversation with each other for several minutes before the wolf jumps out and slaughters them.  My first thought re-watching it, was: "that was a great scene!" My second one was: better use of wolf attacks and remembering to keep the enemies human are two things that may be slipping now. Although I've seen both things fluctuate before. So I don't think there's a huge shark jump involved, just... I've got to bitch about something between episodes.

 

I always want to see more of Ghost, of all of the direwolves, but I have always had a hard time believing that the Wildlings, who are immersed in the supernatural, would be as easy of prey to direwolves as regular soldiers. I had to pause a little last season when none of them could really subdue Summer (I just told myself they were in shock, as Summer came out of nowhere). 

 

I get the feeling they may not have ever even planned for Ghost to be involved, as they needed that money for other CGI, then someone said, "Wait, is Ghost really going to stay locked up the whole damn episode?" and so they let him out for a second. 

 

I just told myself that Ghost was probably starving and was more interested in having a meal and letting the humans do the rest...

[anuhealani]

I really think he should've killed the leader.  You know, the one who killed both his parents and told him to his face that he was going to eat them.  Instead, it seems the fat guy killed him.

Ygritte killed the kid's dad, though, not the Thenn.