Carole Radziwill: She's a Real Princess!

[zoeysmom]

Carole makes no assertions otherwise, she and Caroline were not close and never were close. In fact, Carole and Caroline Kennedy barely had any relationship at all, according to Carole in What Remains.

I did not mean to imply Carole made the assertion.  And thanks for clearing it up apparently Carole did confirm what had been asserted.  I was struck more by Carole's action with the "I Hate Ed Club", seems like a rather ballsy thing to do.

[shoegal]

I believe the animosity towards Ed comes from the death of Carolyn and Lauren Bessette. The "word on the street" is that Ed (presumably acting as Caroline's mouthpiece) was confrontational with the Bessette family and did not want Carolyn eulogized 'like a Kennedy' and didn't want either one treated to the Kennedy family burial.

I believe the relationship with Carole and Caroline was influenced or reflected in the relationship between Carolyn and Caroline.

From RFK's diaries:

A meeting was set up between Ann Freeman and the Kennedys. JFK Jr.'s sister Caroline Kennedy was supposed to go to represent the Kennedy family.

She sent her husband Ed Schlossberg instead.

RFK Jr. writes: 'All the Bessette family knows that Ed hated Carolyn and did everything in his power to make her life miserable.

'He bullied, bullied, bullied the shattered grieving mother.'

Schossberg's treatment of the Bessette family in the aftermath of the crash seemed to create a rift in the Kennedy family.

At one point after the funerals, Carole Radziwill, the wife of Anthony Radziwill, JFK Jr.’s cousin and close friend, called RFK Jr. to complain about Schlossberg.

'She says she wants to start an "I hate Ed Club." There would be many, many members. John & Carolyn would have certainly applied,' RFK Jr. writes.

Ultimately, the arguments turned out to be much ado about nothing. The families decided to have the victims' remains cremated and buried at sea near where they died.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2486083/Kennedys-fought-bodies-buried-JFK-Jr-plane-crash-bullied-heartbroken-mother-wife-Carolyn.html#ixzz3A8HsAs00

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Edited August 12, 2014 by shoegal

[FozzyBear]

Wonder why Carole and Caroline never had any real relationship? Caroline and JFK Jr were supposed to be close. I remember a lot of rumors when they got married that Caroline was less than thrilled that Caroline Bisset was going to be her SIL. Maybe Caroline was really tough to get along with or maybe the same thing rubbed her the wrong way about Carole and Bissett? Interesting dynamics.

[ryebread]

However, to me, just because she is justified in her anger doesn't mean she is justified in her actions (the diagnosing). For someone who likes to point out the possible mental instability of her adversary, I think, as the supposedly stable one, she should not have engaged and sunk to the levels Aviva did, instigating continued backlash from Aviva and prolonging the storyline fueled by rumors. 

 

And if she did indeed know Aviva was trying to start something, her behavior is even more disappointing to me.

 

Fab. 

All. day. long. 

[Mozelle]

So, I just read the NY Post piece. It's interesting that in light of all the infighting that was going on in the Kennedy family, Aviva (and others) want to act like Carole was an ogre for not being up Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg's behind or kissing the ground that Ed walks on. It seems from RFK, Jr.'s very own diary that there was a contentious relationship with JFK, Jr. and his sister because of his choice of Carolyn as his partner. It also seems that it extended to others in the family, and that feelings about Caroline's husband were less than favorable by a number of people.

 

On another note: Carole, Carolyn, Caroline. Oy! I keep wanting to type one of the other women's names when I mean to say another woman.

[Midnight Cheese]

Not that surprised about Carole and Caroline's apparent non-relationship.  Anyone around NY got a taste of Caroline Kennedy's skewed sense of reality when she put out feelers to run for Senate: she wanted to reveal nothing of herself, her political opinions, had no relevant experience and nothing to recommend for her except for throwing her support very early behind Obama's first campaign.  The stories that were less than positive about Caroline and touched on her entitlement apparently shocked her despite the fact that the Kennedy family has sold papers and tabloids for 50 years.  I had always thought very highly of her as a serious, nice person but the does she/doesn't she want to run thing turned me off.  So it does not seem weird (TM Writer Girl) that a woman like Carole, who made her way to traveling the world and writing and producing for Peter Jennings without benefit of riches or connections, who was very close with Carolyn Bessette, wouldn't get along too well with Caroline K.

 

Carole's not a doctor.  Didn't pretend to be. Nor are any of these women (Wig from RHOATL and LuAnn come closest as LPNs).  Yet they all analyze, name-call and assert their opinions about one another, because that's their actual j-o-b as it pertains to this series.  It ain't like Carole whipped out a scrip pad and wrote 'Munchausens with psychosis, 1 lb Thorazine/day' and handed it to Aviva's pharmacist.  Give me a break.

[comatoast]

Carole's not a doctor.  Didn't pretend to be. Nor are any of these women (Wig from RHOATL and LuAnn come closest as LPNs).  Yet they all analyze, name-call and assert their opinions about one another, because that's their actual j-o-b as it pertains to this series.  It ain't like Carole whipped out a scrip pad and wrote 'Munchausens with psychosis, 1 lb Thorazine/day' and handed it to Aviva's pharmacist.  Give me a break.

In my opinion, when someone who does not have a medical degree and does not have access to a person's compete medical history feels the need to chime in with labels of actual disorders, then that someone is, at the very least, playing doctor. Throwing out Munchausen syndrome is not like asserting an opinion that Aviva is a crazy bitch, and if anyone in this cast should know that, it is Carol.

[MatildaMoody]

 

In my opinion, when someone who does not have a medical degree and does not have access to a person's compete medical history feels the need to chime in with labels of actual disorders, then that someone is, at the very least, playing doctor. Throwing out Munchausen syndrome is not like asserting an opinion that Aviva is a crazy bitch, and if anyone in this cast should know that, it is Carol.

For me, I didn't see this as anything other than what we do here. She was commenting on Aviva's behaviors. I am not ashamed to say that I even played armchair psychologist and came up with the same diagnosis for Aviva back on TWOP. I wasn't concerned about not having a medical degree, because I was just discussing my nonprofessional opinion to my friends. I thought Carole was just doing the same thing. She didn't say definitively that Aviva has Munchhausen's. She said, "I think she has..." 

[ryebread]

She didn't say definitively that Aviva has Munchhausen's. She said, "I think she has..." 

I don't mind that they throw out the armchair diagnosis.  But when she/they say they know what 30% lung function feels like, or that someone is lying about their asthma, or how certain types of air can affect it, or that phobias most certainly can't peak and valley or that an amputee couldn't POSSIBLY need a wheelchair in an airport of any size.....

 

Well, "I find that laughable."  Thanks, Heather.  Un-flaring my nostrils and receding my neck, now.

 

Since they have no problem questioning her illnesses, why do they have such a strong reaction when Aviva questions if Carole had help on her book? 

[comatoast]

For me, I didn't see this as anything other than what we do here. She was commenting on Aviva's behaviors. I am not ashamed to say that I even played armchair psychologist and came up with the same diagnosis for Aviva back on TWOP. I wasn't concerned about not having a medical degree, because I was just discussing my nonprofessional opinion to my friends. I thought Carole was just doing the same thing. She didn't say definitively that Aviva has Munchhausen's. She said, "I think she has..." 

I just don't see how saying on national TV that you think Aviva has Munchausen syndrome is any different than Aviva claiming on national TV that Carol used a ghostwriter. Both hit below the belt and both can be detrimental for a long time after the season is over.

[ryebread]

I just don't see how saying on national TV that you think Aviva has Munchausen syndrome is any different than Aviva claiming on national TV that Carol used a ghostwriter. Both hit below the belt and both can be detrimental for a long time after the season is over.

That was my point as well.

 

They both hit below the belt and they both hit at each other's most vulnerable spots.  I don't see a difference either.

[shoegal]

Aviva didn't exactly question whether Carole had "help" on her book, she said Carole's book was ghostwritten by Bill Whitworth. Repeatedly.

Carole speculated that her opinion was that Aviva has Munchausen. She didn't go around claiming someone at Aviva's doctors office told her Aviva was diagnosed with Munchausen.

I do see a difference, as Aviva stated her accusation as fact, and Aviva's assertion is directly tied to Carole's livelihood and her ability to support herself. Apples and spaceships IMO.

Edited August 12, 2014 by shoegal

[ryebread]

All this talk about the Kennedys and Carole and being kind vs. not being kind and this pops up on WhoSay and Facebook

today. 

 

I wonder if Carole and Maria are still friends and if Maria is watching this season.

Now, there would be an interesting addition to this cast.

http://www.whosay.com/status/mariashriver/964829?wsref=fb&code=qIz90g2

 

[ryebread]

Also in Kennedy and Housewives Worlds Colliding news...

 

If you scroll further down Maria's page, you'll see a billboard of Patrick Schwarzenegger, Maria's son, modeling Tom Ford eyewear with Gigi Hadid. 

Sign her up, Andy!  Beverly Hills, New York, I don't care. 

 

She could assure Aviva that "it's not a tooomuh".

[FozzyBear]

Aviva didn't exactly question whether Carole had "help" on her book, she said Carole's book was ghostwritten by Bill Whitworth. Repeatedly.

Carole speculated that her opinion was that Aviva has Munchhausen. She didn't go around claiming someone at Aviva's doctors office told her Aviva was diagnosed with Munchausen.

I do see a difference, as Aviva stated her accusation as fact, and Aviva's assertion is directly tied to Carole's livelihood and her ability to support herself. Apples and spaceships IMO.

I remember Aviva saying that she had been told this or that she had heard it from the word on the street. Dumb ass nonsense, but I do think saying that you were told something is different that saying you know it for a fact.

Aviva's statements crossed a line for a lot of people and they were awful, but they ALL do this kind of shit. They all take rummer and suspicion and extrapolate some questionable conclusions and then present them as facts. The bottom line is Aviva probably was told by someone that Bill Wentwirth wrote What Remains. Publishing is a catty business and I'm sure (especially if she went looking) Aviva could find some people willing to imply that Bill Wentworth was more than just an involved editor. Doesn't make it ok to go spreading it around. But to play devils advocate, I didn't think it was ok for Carole to take a rather minor joke her friend made about Luanne and spinn it into a story about how Luanne pressures designers into free stuff, especially after her friend tried to walk back the story. And then refuse to give it up even at the reunion. Given the type of business Luanne was trying to build at the time, this also could have damaged her career. I'm not defending Aviva at all, but I won't defend Carole on that debacle either. They all do this shit.

[ryebread]

I do see a difference, as Aviva stated her accusation as fact, and Aviva's assertion is directly tied to Carole's livelihood and her ability to support herself.

 

It's been repeated ad nauseam by Aviva and others, that she said "word on the street".  I don't know if I'd say that is stating it as fact.

 

I wish that Tricia Boczkowski would come forward and either confirm or deny that she told Aviva anything. 

C'mon, Trish.  Dish.

 

ETA:  Had the same thought as you, Fozzy, at the same time. :-)

Edited August 12, 2014 by ryebread

[shoegal]

If Carole were going around telling everyone that LuAnn did not design her own collection, then I could see the comparison between bookgate and the Carole/Luann "friend jumper" issue last season. I am not denying that all of the Housewives get into petty fights and say petty things about each other, but as Carole said at the reunion, not all HW fights are created equal.

The closest I can think of to bookgate is the wine incident with Luann and Ramona last season. Luann was trying to fuck with Ramona's business. Although, at least it was semi-lighthearted and did no damage. The allegations that Aviva is pushing (and is still pushing to this day) will follow Carole forever and Carole will NEVER be able disprove the allegations. Aviva has created a cloud over Carole that will never go away and has taken from Carole that Carole can never get back.

This is not petty housewives shit. This is life's work shit.

Edited August 12, 2014 by shoegal

[zoeysmom]

All this talk about the Kennedys and Carole and being kind vs. not being kind and this pops up on WhoSay and Facebook

today. 

 

I wonder if Carole and Maria are still friends and if Maria is watching this season.

Now, there would be an interesting addition to this cast.

http://www.whosay.com/status/mariashriver/964829?wsref=fb&code=qIz90g2

Oops

Edited August 12, 2014 by zoeysmom

[zoeysmom]

If Carole were going around telling everyone that LuAnn did not design her own collection, then I could see the comparison between bookgate and the Carole/Luann "friend jumper" issue last season. I am not denying that all of the Housewives get into petty fights and say petty thing about each other, but as Carole said at the reunion, not all HW fights are created equal.

The closest I can think of to bookgate is the wine incident with Luann and Ramona last season. Luann was trying to fuck with Ramona's business. Although, at least it was semi-lighthearted and did no damage. The allegations that Aviva is pushing (and still pushing to this day) will follow Carole forever and Carole will NEVER be able disprove the allegations. Aviva has created a cloud over Carole that will never go away and has taken from Carole that she can never get back.

This is not petty housewives shit. This is life's work shit.

It only affects Carole if a publisher tells her they won't buy her book because they believe her first book was "ghostwritten".  Since it seems the rumor came from the publishing industry I think it has zero bearing on her career.  When Carole signed up to go on a RH show and cash the big checks she knew there was a likelihood that her credentials as a writer could come into question.  Quite honestly I felt like Carole was playing a game of chicken and it did not go her way.  Has anyone credible, any credible publication claimed the rumor Aviva passed on was true?  I haven't seen one.

[ryebread]

This is not petty housewives shit. This is life's work shit.

 

And what Carole and the others are doing is not petty housewives shit.  This is life's life shit. 

 

Do none of them know what their nastiness could result in?  No.  Because everyone is so deep in their hatred for Aviva.

[FozzyBear]

If Carole were going around telling everyone that LuAnn did not design her own collection, then I could see the comparison between bookgate and the Carole/Luann "friend jumper" issue last season. I am not denying that all of the Housewives get into petty fights and say petty thing about each other, but as Carole said at the reunion, not all HW fights are created equal.

The closest I can think of to bookgate is the wine incident with Luann and Ramona last season. Luann was trying to fuck with Ramona's business. Although, at least it was semi-lighthearted and did no damage. The allegations that Aviva is pushing (and still pushing to this day) will follow Carole forever and Carole will NEVER be able disprove the allegations. Aviva has created a cloud over Carole that will never go away and has taken from Carole that she can never get back.

This is not petty housewives shit. This is life's work shit.

The only point I would make is that since Luanne is a model, not a writer, it may be in a similar spirit.

My point was not to defend Aviva ( oh hell no! Bitch is rancid), but I do think there is a certain NIMBY quality to Carole that can rub people the wrong way. Shit is all fun and games until it's directed at her and then suddenly it's about serious lines being crossed. Does not make it ok to attack her! But it is one of the reasons she's not my favorite.

[shoegal]

I don't believe that Carole signed up for the HW's knowing that it was likely that her credentials as a writer would be called into question. And it not only affects her ability to get a future book deal, but it also can affect the sales of her current books, and it affects her legacy as a writer.

It is a serious line being crossed.

Edited August 12, 2014 by shoegal

[ryebread]

It only affects Carole if a publisher tells her they won't buy her book because they believe her first book was "ghostwritten". 

 

I agree. Word on the street and around here is that this debacle has made Carole's book sales increase.  She should finish her book of essays and prove the haters (and luckily it doesn't look like she has many) wrong.  If someone wants to read what she's writing bad enough, they won't care what allegations have been made against her.  Loads of validation to that theory.

[Pollock]

And what Carole and the others are doing is not petty housewives shit.  This is life's life shit. 

 

Do none of them know what their nastiness could result in?  No.  Because everyone is so deep in their hatred for Aviva.

I'm pretty sure a smart ass comment like "she has Munchausen" isn't as detrimental to a reputation/character/life that throwing a tantrum when people don't spread you a red carpet when taking a plane, insulting castmates, spreading rumors regarding a woman who just happened to be there, refusing to do parts of your job you don't feel like to do and the obvious : throwing your leg in public etc....

[MatildaMoody]

 

It's been repeated ad nauseam by Aviva and others, that she said "word on the street".  I don't know if I'd say that is stating it as fact.

 

Aviva DID assert it as fact and only when she was called on it did she backtrack to "word on the street."  She did it in her conversation with Heather and she did it with her conversation with Ramona. She even did it in the confrontation with Carole at her housewarming party. 

[ryebread]

I'm pretty sure a smart ass comment like "she has Munchausen" isn't as detrimental to a reputation/character/life that throwing a tantrum when people don't spread you a red carpet when taking a plane, insulting castmates, spreading rumors regarding a woman who just happened to be there, refusing to do parts of your job you don't feel like to do and the obvious : throwing your leg in public etc....

Possibly.  But who really knows what goes on in the mind of someone who was likely made fun of as a child and a teen for being different and now called weird, and a hypochondriac and a liar.  Over and over.  Who knows how detrimental that might be to a life?  We don't.  Do we? 

 

Or is Carole et al absolutely sure just like they know what 30% lung function feels like? 

[Pollock]

ETA : nothing to see here ! ;)

Edited August 12, 2014 by Pollock

[ryebread]

ETA : nothing to see here ! ;)

Good thinking, Pollock.  I knew you'd get it. ;-)

Speaking of Carole's book of essays, she might want to spend some of that time at night that she uses editing other people's Wiki pages to edit her own.  It says the essays are coming out in Spring of 2014.  Is she even done yet?   And after she finishes, doesn't it take months to print?  

[Midnight Cheese]

Possibly.  But who really knows what goes on in the mind of someone who was likely made fun of as a child and a teen for being different and now called weird, and a hypochondriac and a liar.  Over and over.  Who knows how detrimental that might be to a life?  We don't.  Do we? 

 

Or is Carole et al absolutely sure just like they know what 30% lung function feels like? 

 

How detrimental might it be?  I'm genuinely asking.  Just in terms of what I see (and sometimes the cheese stands alone), I see Aviva as having shown herself to be hysterical, dissembling and rage-filled when talking about herself/her alleged health conditions, and to eagerly escalate conflict to The Ramona Level (AKA throwing shit).  What's the detriment if the people who are directly impacted by Aviva's heinous behavior say that in their experience and according to what they know, she's making shit up (e.g., Carole's claim to Buzzfeed that Reid told the producers that Queen Avevil would go to Montana if her place next season were guaranteed)?  I don't think it is callous to say that none of the other Hos are responsible for whatever Aviva did - or didn't - deal with in childhood.  They just aren't.  They met her when she was 40.  Why isn't Aviva responsible for being kinder to Carole, who was widowed and lost her closest friends within 3 weeks much more recently than Aviva may - or may not - have been mocked as weird? 

[ryebread]

How detrimental might it be?  I'm genuinely asking. 

Good question.  And I don't know how detrimental it might be.  She might seem tough as balls and someone else might seem funny and capable as hell and...just not be.  I absolutely agree that none of the others are responsible for what Aviva went through -  I know we have differing opinions but I would hope at least you don't think I'm completely stupid to believe that.  I think we're on the same page that Aviva has been absolutely horrible and despicable to Aviva.  Where we differ, I think, is that you don't believe Carole has done anything horrible back?  You asked me a genuine question and that's mine back to you.

 

Why isn't Aviva responsible for being kinder to Carole, who was widowed and lost her closest friends within 3 weeks much more recently than Aviva may - or may not - have been mocked as weird? 

That's the problem.  They're both being horrible.  They SHOULD be kinder.  But neither are.  I feel enormous sympathy for Carole's losses.  I feel enormous sympathy for Aviva's losses.  Aviva is an asshole.  I don't think Carole is of that caliber.  But to say that what she and the others are doing is NOT detrimental to someone's psyche or life, is unproven.  Either way, if I were the sane one dealing with the crazy one, I'd err on the side of kindness. I think that's what Carole might have been doing when she gave Aviva's leg back (that still sounds 'weird' to me) but she hasn't quite shown me that she's capable of going the whole 9 yards.  And should she?  Apparently she feels like she shouldn't.  I would.

[shoegal]

Who is to say that Aviva is the "crazy" one?  Maybe Aviva is just a mean bitch.  I don't think mean bitches necessarily deserve kindness in return. 

Edited August 12, 2014 by shoegal

[Midnight Cheese]

ryebread, you are totally right about where we split - I don't see where Carole has done horrible things to Aviva.  I interpret her as just really disliking her and being caught off-guard initially by the ghostwriter accusation.  Aviva certainly hit Carole where she lived.  I do agree with you though that Carole has said nasty things, but I don't think saying very sharp stuff in anger after being attacked is Carole doing horrible things to Aviva at all.  (I was also struck by it being Carole to get and return Aviva's leg and I thought that was great of her.  Even though the scene was a let down in some ways it's still surreal that Aviva actually did that to her very expensive prosthetic and then accused Holla! of wanting Aviva to crawl home.)

 

About the accusation: in part 1 or 2, didn't Aviva say that the accusation she made was like asking about implants?  "If you don't want to be asked about your boob job, don't ask a girl about hers."  I think that is super telling.  A career versus volunteer plastic surgery (let's take away reconstructions or things of that nature).  **That's** where Aviva's mind was.  I see Aviva as thinking that she is entitled to make any claim that occurs to her, when it occurs to her, regardless of the basis or the truth or the falseness or the damage.  She doesn't ever have anything to lose, because she clearly does not live in a world where she is ever criticized.  Her fucked-up daddy and husband don't seem like they say boo to her.  That's such a damaged way to live.

[jaync]

I also recall Aviva stating that Carole had a ghostwriter. But even if she hadn't, once she named the person(s) in the business that supposedly told her it was so, then she was basically declaring it as being a truth as opposed to just a rumor on some street.

 

But when she/they say they know what 30% lung function feels like, or that someone is lying about their asthma, or how certain types of air can affect it, or that phobias most certainly can't peak and valley...

Unless Reid can cure illnesses with the stroke of a contract-signing pen, then Aviva was lying about having asthma - or at least the severity of her supposed case. Because either the asthma kept her from going to Montana, or it didn't.

 

...or that an amputee couldn't POSSIBLY need a wheelchair in an airport of any size.

Which of the ladies said that Aviva would never need a wheelchair if she had made the trip?

[TheFinalRose]

The only thing that will affect Carole's ability to get a future book deal is whether or not she makes money for Henry Holt, her publisher. As a reader I don't believe Aviva's claim that Bill Whitworth ghostwrote What Remains. However, I do kind of believe that someone said something to Aviva along those lines and that it's possible Whitworth's editing crossed over into re-writing, or "co-writing". The only reason I have for wondering about that is because What Remains was so emotionally devastating a read, and The Widow's Guide was as shallow as they come. None of Carole's ability to create an emotional connection with the reader in What Remains was carried over into The Widow's Guide. So I'm wondering where that skill went between books.  

 

Now that being said, I will definitely read Carole's essay book as soon as its published.

 

I wish that Tricia Boczkowski would come forward and either confirm or deny that she told Aviva anything.
C'mon, Trish.  Dish.

 

 

Who is Tricia Boczkowski?

 

The stories that were less than positive about Caroline and touched on her entitlement apparently shocked her despite the fact that the Kennedy family has sold papers and tabloids for 50 years.  I had always thought very highly of her as a serious, nice person but the does she/doesn't she want to run thing turned me off.

 

 

Do you remember the infamous "you know" interview/article that was published that really did Caroline in? I think it was in the NYTimes or, "you know, wherever, but she had some outrageous number of "you knows" in the transcript and it did not reflect well on her.  Nevertheless, she does seem to have managed to keep her family out of the tabloids.

Edited August 12, 2014 by TheFinalRose

[LotusFlower]

Do you remember the infamous "you know" interview/article that was published that really did Caroline in? I think it was in the NYTimes or, "you know, wherever, but she had some outrageous number of "you knows" in the transcript and it did not reflect well on her.

Yes, I remember that! I think it was a meeting she had with the editorial board of the NYT. Plus, she had had a few television interviews by then, and didn't fare too well (again, a lot of "you know's"). I like her, but I think that pseudo-run for office really showed her sense of entitlement. If you remember, the senate seat was going to be appointed, as opposed to the candidates running for office. There's something to be said for campaigning.

P.S. Tricia Bozcowski is the alleged person in the publishing world that Aviva claims told her about the ghostwriter rumor.

[shoegal]

The only thing that will affect Carole's ability to get a future book deal is whether or not she makes money for Henry Holt, her publisher. As a reader I don't believe Aviva's claim that Bill Whitworth ghostwrote What Remains. However, I do kind of believe that someone said something to Aviva along those lines and that it's possible Whitworth's editing crossed over into re-writing, or "co-writing". The only reason I have for wondering about that is because What Remains was so emotionally devastating a read, and The Widow's Guide was as shallow as they come. None of Carole's ability to create an emotional connection with the reader in What Remains was carried over into The Widow's Guide. So I'm wondering where that skill went between books.

I believe it's the difference between writing a memoir versus a novel, or more accurately, writing about your experiences, emotions and actual events versus shit you make up. Some writers are very insightful, profound or funny when writing about the world around them and some people have a rich imagination to create a story with fictional characters and events. It reminds me of one of my favorite writers, Jen Lancaster. I love Jen's books about her life and experiences, they are hilarious to me and I believe she's a very talented writer. However, she wrote a fictional novel and it was terrible ( it was kind of like Widows Guide in that it was loosely based on her life). I think it's just that writing fiction is not the same as writing about your life.

That said, I am happy to purchase and read the book of essays when it comes out. I might just buy Widows Guide as a fuck you Aviva, but fiction is not my thing.

[ryebread]

Unless Reid can cure illnesses with the stroke of a contract-signing pen, then Aviva was lying about having asthma - or at least the severity of her supposed case. Because either the asthma kept her from going to Montana, or it didn't.

 

Which of the ladies said that Aviva would never need a wheelchair if she had made the trip?

So who confirmed that story was true about Reid and the contract?

 

I don't remember who said it about the wheelchair.  I recall several of them chuckling about her asking for a wheelchair and why she would need one. 

[LotusFlower]

So who confirmed that story was true about Reid and the contract?

Word on the street.

[shoegal]

 

I don't remember who said it about the wheelchair.  I recall several of them chuckling about her asking for a wheelchair and why she would need one.

Aviva herself in her blog stated that the wheelchair must have been a joke that she took offense to (assuming by production) and has never indicated or stated that she needed or requested the wheelchair.

[Mozelle]

Yes, I remember that! I think it was a meeting she had with the editorial board of the NYT. Plus, she had had a few television interviews by then, and didn't fare too well (again, a lot of "you know's"). I like her, but I think that pseudo-run for office really showed her sense of entitlement. If you remember, the senate seat was going to be appointed, as opposed to the candidates running for office. There's something to be said for campaigning.

P.S. Tricia Bozcowski is the alleged person in the publishing world that Aviva claims told her about the ghostwriter rumor.

 

Tricia is also listed in the acknowledgements of Aviva's book. She's the third woman after Aviva gives thanks to industry ghost writers/co-writers, Valerie Frankel and Judith Newman.

[ryebread]

Tricia is also listed in the acknowledgements of Aviva's book. She's the third woman after Aviva gives thanks to industry ghost writers/co-writers, Valerie Frankel and Judith Newman.

She's an Editor at Gallery Books, a division of Simon and Schuster. From the looks of Aviva's acknowledgements, it did take a village.

[comatoast]

I don't believe that Carole signed up for the HW's knowing that it was likely that her credentials as a writer would be called into question. And it not only affects her ability to get a future book deal, but it also can affect the sales of her current books, and it affects her legacy as a writer.

It is a serious line being crossed.

I believe Carol crossed a line as well. Future opportunities for Aviva may also be affected. It's not like the days of mental illness and stigma are long gone.

 

I'm pretty sure a smart ass comment like "she has Munchausen" isn't as detrimental to a reputation/character/life that throwing a tantrum when people don't spread you a red carpet when taking a plane, insulting castmates, spreading rumors regarding a woman who just happened to be there, refusing to do parts of your job you don't feel like to do and the obvious : throwing your leg in public etc....

While I would hope that a person's actions have more impact than the possibility of that person having a mental condition, no one can say for sure that Aviva's asshole juvenile behavior on a trashy reality show will be more detrimental to her reputation and life than having her name associated with a specific mental disorder.

 

How detrimental might it be?  I'm genuinely asking.  Just in terms of what I see (and sometimes the cheese stands alone), I see Aviva as having shown herself to be hysterical, dissembling and rage-filled when talking about herself/her alleged health conditions, and to eagerly escalate conflict to The Ramona Level (AKA throwing shit).  What's the detriment if the people who are directly impacted by Aviva's heinous behavior say that in their experience and according to what they know, she's making shit up (e.g., Carole's claim to Buzzfeed that Reid told the producers that Queen Avevil would go to Montana if her place next season were guaranteed)? 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with holding people accountable for their bad behavior, but Carol took it a step further. She didn't stop at telling Aviva that she was lying. No, she called her out as possibly having a very specific mental disorder that will now be associated with Aviva so long as the footage exists. (And she did in fact say "She has Munchausen syndrome" when they were having dinner in Montana. No "I think" there. )The question of whether she does or doesn't is out there. Just as the question about Carol using a ghostwriter is out there.

Who is to say that Aviva is the "crazy" one?  Maybe Aviva is just a mean bitch.  I don't think mean bitches necessarily deserve kindness in return. 

Maybe Aviva is just a mean bitch. Ironically, Carol is the one who thinks she has a mental disorder so she should treat Aviva accordingly.

Edited August 13, 2014 by comatoast

[Mozelle]

She's an Editor at Gallery Books, a division of Simon and Schuster. From the looks of Aviva's acknowledgements, it did take a village.

 

Yup! It's also why I can't understand why Aviva keeps trying to pass off Valerie Frankel as her editor when she (Aviva) acknowledges an actual editor (her actual editor!) in her memoir.

[shoegal]

Maybe Aviva is just a mean bitch. Ironically, Carol is the one who thinks she has a mental disorder so she should treat Aviva accordingly.

As far as I understand, Munchausen doesn't make someone a mean bitch. These two issues are not related. Munchausen would not excuse Aviva's nasty behavior towards Carole, nor should it affect Carole being pissed for the shit Aviva has been saying about her all season.

Personally, I don't think that Carole's sarcastic reference to Aviva having Munchausen in a discussion about why Aviva always seems to have a health issue that gets her attention or provides an excuse is the same as the repeated and repeated and repeated accusations from Aviva that Bill Whitworth wrote Carole's book. I think it's making a giant stretch out of dislike for Carole. I think the offhand remark from Carole about Munchausen is more like Aviva's comments that Carole is not a well-wisher. Petty housewives crap.

[comatoast]

As far as I understand, Munchausen doesn't make someone a mean bitch. These two issues are not related. Munchausen would not excuse Aviva's nasty behavior towards Carole, nor should it affect Carole being pissed for the shit Aviva has been saying about her all season.

Personally, I don't think that Carole's sarcastic reference to Aviva having Munchausen in a discussion about why Aviva always seems to have a health issue that gets her attention or provides an excuse is the same as the repeated and repeated and repeated accusations from Aviva that Bill Whitworth wrote Carole's book. I think it's making a giant stretch out of dislike for Carole. I think the offhand remark from Carole about Munchausen is more like Aviva's comments that Carole is not a well-wisher. Petty housewives crap.

If I wasn't clear in my post, I didn't mean to imply Munchausen makes someone a mean bitch nor is it related to general bitchdom. I was agreeing with you that maybe Aviva is one. But whether she is or not, it was Carol who said otherwise so she should be treating her differently. As for the rest, clearly we disagree, but I do want to say that I like Carol.

[shoegal]

Why should Carole be treating Aviva differently if Aviva's mean bitchiness is just plain old mean bitchiness?

Edited August 13, 2014 by shoegal

[LotusFlower]

I didn't mean to imply Munchausen makes someone a mean bitch nor is it related to general bitchdom. I was agreeing with you that maybe Aviva is one. But whether she is or not, it was Carol who said otherwise so she should be treating her differently.

Having Münchausen syndrome doesn't necessarily make you fragile. I'm not sure how Carole should treat her differently. And by all accounts, except for the finale party at Le Cirque, she kept her distance.

[mmepeacock]

I think if Carole had said "I know people who said Aviva's been diagnosed with Munchausen's Syndrome," it would be on par with Aviva's statement that she knows people who say that Carole used a ghostwriter.

 

Carole's statement of "I think she's got Munchausen's syndrome" is not an accusation or mudslinging, but an opinion. It disparages but does not damage perceptions of Aviva's mental health. Carole is not a doctor. One layperson's casual remark about another's mental illness is insulting, but it does NOT put it "out in the ether" for Aviva to live with forever.

 

Aviva's statement disparages and damages perceptions of Carole's writing. Aviva's is not an opinion, but stated as a fact, with evidence to back this fact up (names she's been dropping), publicly, based on her knowledge and interaction with NY publishing industry types (Carole's peers/employers). It's far from a casual snark, nasty remark or individual opinion.

[RazzleberryPie]

I don't know how Carole, as pretentiously mellow as she is, didn't get up and beat Aviva with her prosthetic leg. Whether or not Aviva enjoys Carole's writing style or subject matter, Carole is a successful published author. She has worked as a writer or producer for decades. She's legit. Writer Girl - someone please give Carole a superhero cape with a big ol' WG - knew the proper meaning of the word "weird" and used it correctly.

 

My biggest peeve with that whole 'ghost writer' BS, is that no matter how many times Aviva screeched that 'she heard word on the street people are saying' Carole had a ghostwriter, Carole said SHE DID NOT HAVE A GHOSTWRITER. End of story. 

Oh, BTW, if Carole can prove Aviva's false remarks are harming her image and her business, she may have grounds to sue for slander... 

[jaync]

So who confirmed that story was true about Reid and the contract?

Who's confirmed it as not being true? It seems Aviva responds to everything else Carole has to say, so it's curious she's not denying  an accusation that paints herself and her husband as calculated liars.

 

 I recall several of them chuckling about her asking for a wheelchair and why she would need one. 

Of course they would wonder why there was a wheelchair waiting for Aviva, given she never planned on making the trip.