Kim Richards: No Escape from Witch Mountain

[parisprincess]

And just because Kyle isn't an alcoholic doesn't mean that she isn't causing, fueling, and keeping a lot of the demons Kim's struggling with alive, well and strong enough so they are that much harder for Kim to slay.

 

I have yet to see Kim actually trying to slay the demons she's "struggling" with.  Her only struggle seems to be trying to get everyone else to agree with her assertion that she doesn't have a problem and that she's been sober for three years.

[GreatKazu]

IMO, this is the only way that explains the enclosure/kennel Production paid 6K for in Kim's yard.  The trainer from last season spilled the beans on that after the season was over.

 

I think people are just "guessing" what Kim meant/was hinting about in the preview if that statement about telling "the story" is about the dog bite.

I take what Kim says as pure fiction. Made up in her own delusional and paranoid mind.

[Sincerely Yours]

Kyle never responds in the media on any specific Kim issue. When she is asked about Kim relapsing in interviews, she falls back to the family spin that she has never seen Kim high/drunk since rehab,except lately she has added "other than poker night", forgetting about Paris and never mentioning PR. IMO, we will never hear Kyle/Alexia address what really happened the day of the dog bite unless they are called to testify in the KR lawsuit. If that lawsuit goes to court, I expect to hear a lot about Kim's off camera life, drugs/alcohol use, her home life, her refusal to get proper training for the dog and when he started biting people and what exactly she did/didn't do.

But that doesn't mean that's the reason for each and every, each and every, each and every situation for goodness sake.

[WireWrap]

But that doesn't mean that's the reason for each and every, each and every, each and every situation for goodness sake.

I am not sure what you are referring to. My post was in response to why Kyle has not addressed Kim's dog, the dog biting people, in more detail. Kyle never goes into specifics when it comes to Kim's life when she does interviews.

[Sincerely Yours]

I have yet to see Kim actually trying to slay the demons she's "struggling" with.  Her only struggle seems to be trying to get everyone else to agree with her assertion that she doesn't have a problem and that she's been sober for three years.

Not surprised it's not completely visible on an hour long show that airs once a week for only a few weeks. Just saying.

[Sincerely Yours]

I am not sure what you are referring to. My post was in response to why Kyle has not addressed Kim's dog, the dog biting people, in more detail. Kyle never goes into specifics when it comes to Kim's life when she does interviews.

I was referring to how Kyle's silence is usually interpreted as Kyle covering for Kim instead of it just being that Kyle isn't disputing something because there's nothing to dispute.

[WireWrap]

I was referring to how Kyle's silence is usually interpreted as Kyle covering for Kim instead of it just being that Kyle isn't disputing something because there's nothing to dispute.

Other than the limo scene season 1, when have we ever heard Kyle reveal anything about Kim's private life in details. She never gives anything beyond "That's Kim's story to tell" in interviews about her, Kim's, struggle with addiction, she has been silent about the dog bite other than admitting it was Kingsley that bit Alexia. She did not go around slamming Kim or the dog in the press, even when the KR bite became public knowledge after Alexia was bitten. The basic facts are that Kim has an aggressive dog that has a history of biting people and that list now includes family members that the dog was raised around yet Kyle did not say a harsh word about the dog or Kim.

[Higgins]

Higgins what you are saying about assuming Kim is implying that Alexia is drinking is exactly the reason I loathe Kim.  This is Kim with the nuances and open ending accusations-if her niece was drinking-just say it.  Kyle is a big girl and can deal with the consequences.  Lord knows in this group of cousins their drinking and drugging behavior is legendary a third of them have been arrested on alcohol related offenses.  If it was just that Alexia disobeyed her wishes then say it and don't imply more.  I don't want to hear that Alexia forced the dog to bite her because she wanted to get out of going back to college.  This is what makes Kim unforgivable.  Dog bites happen among family and friends all the time-Kyle said she did not expect Kim to get rid of the dog-I do not get the rub between the two of them.  If it is simply that Kim did not want it to get out -too bad-it is Alexia's story to tell.  What is it Kim said, "you are only as sick as your secrets."

I totally understand why you feel that way, don't get me wrong. People like her are hard to deal with.

Where did Kim say that Alexia was drinking or wanted to get out of going back to school?  This is the first I have heard of this.  

She didn't say that and it might just be and probably is one of those Bravo tricks where they put two things together in a promo that suggests something that never happened. That was my speculation based on nothing really. Just a thought that popped in my head when I watched the preview.

[LotusFlower]

I was referring to how Kyle's silence is usually interpreted as Kyle covering for Kim instead of it just being that Kyle isn't disputing something because there's nothing to dispute.

Except the cat's out of the bag on Kim relapsing. Even putting aside all the times Kim has appeared high as a kite over the past few seasons post-rehab, she admitted to the non-prescribed pain pill on Poker Night. And we saw the resulting behavior - all of us, including Kyle.

[zoeysmom]

I totally understand why you feel that way, don't get me wrong. People like her are hard to deal with.

She didn't say that and it might just be and probably is one of those Bravo tricks where they put two things together in a promo that suggests something that never happened. That was my speculation based on nothing really. Just a thought that popped in my head when I watched the preview.

Please understand I wasn't blaming you for the comment.  To me this group of women need to be smarter and dispute when Kim does the big "and what about your husband," or "you won't like the story I tell,". It is just something that only works once for me and then I call someone on it.   BTW it is not just Kim they need to callout-callout Brandi for claiming she watched Eileen and Lisa when she was in high school-Brandi would have been 22 years old.  These women and their posse need to be at least half as smart as the viewers.

[Trooper York]

Well let's be fair.

When Brandi was 22 years old she probably was still in High School.

[Sincerely Yours]

Except the cat's out of the bag on Kim relapsing. Even putting aside all the times Kim has appeared high as a kite over the past few seasons post-rehab, she admitted to the non-prescribed pain pill on Poker Night. And we saw the resulting behavior - all of us, including Kyle.

Wasn't talking about her sobriety. Just that it in any situation no matter what the subject matter is if someone refers to the fact that Kyle isn't disputing Kim's version of things then it's most likely because Kyle is covering and it can't possibly be because Kim's version is accurate. That's the point I was trying to make.

[Sincerely Yours]

 

She didn't say that and it might just be and probably is one of those Bravo tricks where they put two things together in a promo that suggests something that never happened. That was my speculation based on nothing really. Just a thought that popped in my head when I watched the preview.

And yet, it will easily be gobbled up as yet more "proof" of how bad Kim is meanwhile that's how a lot of other "Kim is vile" list of reasons have cropped up. Just by someone starting off with "I wonder if Kim was trying to insinuate......"

 

Nothing against you Higgins, just using this as a good example on how easy it is for some to breath life into something whether it's true or just complete speculation. At this point things don't even have to be true in order to add to the list of things Kim needs to atone for. In society, I find that the need to ostracize is much stronger than the need to heal. Nothing displays that theory better than Bravos Real Housewives. Very sad.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Sincerely Yours

[SistaLadybug]

What befuddles and frustrates me is that when the time comes for healing, often the wronged party is expected to be the one who promotes said healing.  There are questions like, "What can't you forgive?  Why can't you move past it?"  There are urgings to leave the past in the past. 

 

In my opinion, it's the offender who should take the initiative if there's any healing that's going to happen.  There need to be acknowledgment of wrongs, apologies, a substantial and ongoing change in behavior and, even then, no one owes you a relationship.  No one has to say, "I forgive you and welcome you back with open arms."  That's the price you pay for bad behavior.  It is wonderful and blessed when forgiveness and right-standing are granted but it's not a given.

 

To this day, this present moment, Kim has not said (that we have seen because of course every moment of their lives are not recorded), "My behavior has been horrible.  I have caused my family and friends pain.  I realize what I have done.  Forgive me.  Allow me to show you that I can be different."  Instead, she has dug in her heels.  She has said, "Maybe I'm bad, but what about *you*?"  She sits there while her "best friend" calls her sister an awful word and displays threatening behaviors.  Kim is mind-boggling.  I have dealt with addicts.  I have dealt with mean drunks.  None of them have been the absolute hellhole of a person that Kim Richards has shown herself to be thus far.  I try to find sympathy in my heart for her because it's important to me to have compassion for my fellow (wo)man, but she tests the limits of my humanity and my Christianity.  She is someone that, in the words of the church mothers, you have to "leave to Jesus" because seriously, He's the only one who could have the kind of patience it would take to deal with her. 

[IKnowRight]

I don't remember for sure, but I don't recall any scenes with Kims children with the exception of Brooke's wedding planning & the wedding itself. We saw Kimberly in bed sick & Kim mentioned Chad was sick too. Last season and earlier in this series we saw more interaction with her kids. It made me wonder if her kids are choosing to not engage this season for a particular reason.

I think it's strange how kids are highlighted one season, and barely seen in the next...this goes for all the ladies on all the housewives shows. Brandi is not supposed to film with her boys at this point. Kim's children are adults on paper, so I'm surprised we don't see them very often. Does anyone know if they step away from Kim purposely when they think she's using? Does she think the other ladies discussing her on camera is why they disappear from her on a day to day basis? I'm just wondering if this is why her reactions to the other ladies makes her come unglued?

[zoeysmom]

Kim was with Brooke in Cabo this past weekend.  I guess taking care of Monty and driving her family members back and forth between the doctors and hospitals was well a great big lie to tell Brandi.

[Sincerely Yours]

What befuddles and frustrates me is that when the time comes for healing, often the wronged party is expected to be the one who promotes said healing.  There are questions like, "What can't you forgive?  Why can't you move past it?"  There are urgings to leave the past in the past. 

 

In my opinion, it's the offender who should take the initiative if there's any healing that's going to happen.  There need to be acknowledgment of wrongs, apologies, a substantial and ongoing change in behavior and, even then, no one owes you a relationship.  No one has to say, "I forgive you and welcome you back with open arms."  That's the price you pay for bad behavior.  It is wonderful and blessed when forgiveness and right-standing are granted but it's not a given.

 

To this day, this present moment, Kim has not said (that we have seen because of course every moment of their lives are not recorded), "My behavior has been horrible.  I have caused my family and friends pain.  I realize what I have done.  Forgive me.  Allow me to show you that I can be different."  Instead, she has dug in her heels.  She has said, "Maybe I'm bad, but what about *you*?"  She sits there while her "best friend" calls her sister an awful word and displays threatening behaviors.  Kim is mind-boggling.  I have dealt with addicts.  I have dealt with mean drunks.  None of them have been the absolute hellhole of a person that Kim Richards has shown herself to be thus far.  I try to find sympathy in my heart for her because it's important to me to have compassion for my fellow (wo)man, but she tests the limits of my humanity and my Christianity.  She is someone that, in the words of the church mothers, you have to "leave to Jesus" because seriously, He's the only one who could have the kind of patience it would take to deal with her. 

True, but if one isn't in a position to help or continue to help the healing process because it's become too difficult then fine. It's when the choice is made to then shift gears into ostracizing and or becoming a part of the problem by contributing even more toxic fuel to the fire. Yes it's hard but so are the struggles of an addict. Being tied to an addict, as grueling and unfair as it is still doesn't excuse behavior that only contributes negatively to the ongoing battle. Whatever wrong moves, bad decisions etc. etc. the addict makes still doesn't absolve those that act out continuously because they can't get a handle on their own toxic involvement. Adults make hard and painful decisions everyday. Lesser of two evils, for the greater good, etc. etc. It's hard and people struggle to do so but if there's compassion for one side then their should be compassion for the other in the event that human weakness keeps one from making the hard decisions necessary cause hey not being strong enough is all too common in life as well. Understood. However, if it's black and white for one end then the same black and white should apply for both sides. If human weakness, and emotion is an acceptable explanation for why Kyle can't distance herself then I would expect the same logic apply to someone battling an addiction considering that both parties involved are both susceptible to basic human conditions, emotions, limitations, etc.

 

As for bad behavior. The circumstances in where Kim "bad behavior" surfaced was during situations of escalated tension. Okay, Kim's a bitch in a situation she finds tense or uncomfortable. I get that that's not cool but at the same time not too many people can keep their cool when face with conflict, confrontation especially when it isn't one on one or if the vibe of the interaction is aggressive and accusatory. I mean Kim isn't the sweetest person on earth but considering the very unhealthy and not so clean interactions that were forced upon her I'm not completely aghast at her reactions to these ridiculous episodes these women engaged in.

 

My bigger problem is how it feels like Kyle's despair seems to be this bigger battle than the battle Kim is fighting and as hard as it is to be emotionally tied to an addict I just can't accept this and I find it all kinds of wrong that Kyle seems to be vying for the title of worse off. I feel like its such an insult that what "Kyle goes through" is somehow supposed to trump what Kim struggles with on a day to day basis. I just can't put them in the same realm. Yeah, I could definitely sympathize if it wasn't for this feeling I get that Kyle WANTS to steal top billing in the "who is in the worse boat" show. I just get that icky feeling about their whole dynamic. I think that's why I'm not much of a Kyle defender.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Sincerely Yours

[SistaLadybug]

I think I understand Kyle because I've been (and still am), "The Responsible One" and that shit is for the birds.  It removes your ability to make mistakes or fall or have moments of weakness because the people around you are so focused on the "one who's hurting/the one with the problem" that you become nearly invisible.  I think Kyle has been "The Responsible One" her whole life, at least when it comes to Kim.  Kyle's the little sister here (I understand that they're both adults) and she's the one who has had to clean up the messes, make excuses, etc., all while being treated like dirt on the bottom of Kim's shoe and being accused of theft and sisterly neglect.  What the actual fuck?  It's beyond.  If Kyle were to walk away and focus on her own family and have nothing to do with Kim, Kim would spend the rest of her days talking about why Kyle is not a "real sister" and has never been there for her.  And while we're on that topic: What the hell does that even mean?  In order to "be there for" Kim, does it mean that you have to stand still while she flings poo at you like a monkey?  It can't be that you love her and want her best.  You have to actively take her part even when she's as wrong as two left shoes.

[quinn]

Kim lies but so does Brandi and her blog writer so I am not assuming that "Brandi" stating in her blog that Kim has been driving back and forth between hospitals dealing with sick loved ones, and then later see pictures of Kim in Cabo posted on social media means that Kim lied to Brandi. 
 
Re Kim and her children, there are pictures on Brooke's Instagram of Brooke with Kim and also a recent picture of Kim and Kimberly sleeping in the same bed, so it seems like she is in contact with those two.

Edited April 1, 2015 by quinn

[sistermagpie]

My bigger problem is how it feels like Kyle's despair seems to be this bigger battle than the battle Kim is fighting and as hard as it is to be emotionally tied to an addict I just can't accept this and I find it all kinds of wrong that Kyle seems to be vying for the title of worse off. I feel like its such an insult that what "Kyle goes through" is somehow supposed to trump what Kim struggles with on a day to day basis.

 

 

I think Kyle's life is pretty good and that she's not really "going through" terrible things all the time because of Kim--it's more like Kim just hits her with nasty experiences periodically.

 

But I don't see what's so terrible about what Kim's going through on a daily basis, from her pov. She does what she wants when she wants, sees who she wants and doesn't see who she wants. What's so terrible about her life? That people keep bringing up that she publicly fell off the wagon? She insulted them and cut them out of her life so that's settled. That her dog keeps biting people? Well, that one might be a problem but she had several people covering up for her for a while on that one so it's not like she actually had to do what was requested of her. That she's worried about her kids losing patience with her if people don't ix-nay on the elapse-ray talk?

 

She still seems just as happy to complain about what she's going through as much as Kyle does. Hell, she snapped at LisaR for sympathizing with the cancer patient, didn't she?

[Sincerely Yours]

I think I understand Kyle because I've been (and still am), "The Responsible One" and that shit is for the birds.  It removes your ability to make mistakes or fall or have moments of weakness because the people around you are so focused on the "one who's hurting/the one with the problem" that you become nearly invisible.  I think Kyle has been "The Responsible One" her whole life, at least when it comes to Kim.  Kyle's the little sister here (I understand that they're both adults) and she's the one who has had to clean up the messes, make excuses, etc., all while being treated like dirt on the bottom of Kim's shoe and being accused of theft and sisterly neglect.  What the actual fuck?  It's beyond.  If Kyle were to walk away and focus on her own family and have nothing to do with Kim, Kim would spend the rest of her days talking about why Kyle is not a "real sister" and has never been there for her.  And while we're on that topic: What the hell does that even mean?  In order to "be there for" Kim, does it mean that you have to stand still while she flings poo at you like a monkey?  It can't be that you love her and want her best.  You have to actively take her part even when she's as wrong as two left shoes.

I don't think Kyle is an innocent bystander though. I don't think she's abused. I think her resentments get away from her and I think Kyle acts out when she wants to which invokes the "abuse" from Kim or more accurately the reactions she receives from Kim. The body language, the wide eyes. The public throwing up of her hands in anguished defeat, all for the there, there pat on the back.  All for effect, all for sympathy at Kim's expense. I personally don't see Kyle as being abused I see her just getting her lumps for playing the situation in a way that garners sympathy for Kyle while admonishing Kim. I'm not saying that Kim doesn't have things to atone for but I get what Kim is doing when she calls Kyle out on her antics. Kim's challenges aren't there for Kyle to gain public sympathy whether or not Kim does have a slip up on or off camera. There's no way in hell that Kyle doesn't have her inner circle of supporters and people that acknowledge her plight with Kim. I'm sure she's not sitting in some lone hell where she's sworn to silence and no one will every know her inner turmoil.  Give me a break. It's this, what I feel, is an unnecessary need to make sure she doesn't look like the bad guy for the public and these women who really aren't worth all these displays of woe. The need for them to be understanding of HER position as if that's what's the real tragedy is in all of this.

 

I was the baby and also the "responsible one" out of 4 siblings. It sucks, but I never made into something I absolutely NEEDED others to feel sorry for me about. So goes life.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Sincerely Yours

[Sincerely Yours]

I think Kyle's life is pretty good and that she's not really "going through" terrible things all the time because of Kim--it's more like Kim just hits her with nasty experiences periodically.

 

But I don't see what's so terrible about what Kim's going through on a daily basis, from her pov. She does what she wants when she wants, sees who she wants and doesn't see who she wants. What's so terrible about her life? That people keep bringing up that she publicly fell off the wagon? She insulted them and cut them out of her life so that's settled. That her dog keeps biting people? Well, that one might be a problem but she had several people covering up for her for a while on that one so it's not like she actually had to do what was requested of her. That she's worried about her kids losing patience with her if people don't ix-nay on the elapse-ray talk?

 

She still seems just as happy to complain about what she's going through as much as Kyle does. Hell, she snapped at LisaR for sympathizing with the cancer patient, didn't she?

She's an addict. Always will be. If she isn't slipping which brings bad consequences, she's fighting not to slip. If she's sober, she's still up for scrutiny when she forgets what day it is. Constant worry over being confronted, asked, questioned etc. etc. about this that and the other. Disappointing those she cares about.  Bad decision meaning that much more than the average person because she's an addict. The stigma alone casts gloom. I mean this isn't an exaggeration. Considering the level of her addiction and for how long she's been struggling. Money bet that she's not waking up with the birds singing "oh what a wonderful morning on a daily basis". I may not love Kim or even like her but I can at least acknowledge that her life isn't one to really be coveting. Even if she's skipping around in denial or isn't actually sober then that means the disease is still killing her slowly. Yeah, not something that I'm going to pretend isn't sad.

[sistermagpie]

I may not love Kim or even like her but I can at least acknowledge that her life isn't one to really be coveting. Even if she's skipping around in denial or isn't actually sober then that means the disease is still killing her slowly. Yeah, not something that I'm going to pretend isn't sad.

 

 

Sad, yes, but this isn't about whether I'd want her life. It just seems like circular logic and a blanket excuse. Her addiction is both the cause and excuse for everything. As long as she's the one who's really suffering here because she's the addict that just feeds into her self-righteousness about it. I'd much rather be in Kyle's shoes than Kim's, but just because Kim should be suffering due to her illness doesn't mean she consciously is. Especially when you add things like "being scrutinized" to her list of burdens. She doesn't seem that carefully scrutinized to me, except when she's throwing up red flags. If she's an addict with income, people who support her (or cover for her), access to drugs that could be pretty cool, especially if she thinks other people are the ones disappointing her and she's not too bothered by slipping. 

Edited April 1, 2015 by sistermagpie

[nexxie]

I think I understand Kyle because I've been (and still am), "The Responsible One" and that shit is for the birds.  It removes your ability to make mistakes or fall or have moments of weakness because the people around you are so focused on the "one who's hurting/the one with the problem" that you become nearly invisible.  I think Kyle has been "The Responsible One" her whole life, at least when it comes to Kim.  Kyle's the little sister here (I understand that they're both adults) and she's the one who has had to clean up the messes, make excuses, etc., all while being treated like dirt on the bottom of Kim's shoe and being accused of theft and sisterly neglect.  What the actual fuck?  It's beyond.  If Kyle were to walk away and focus on her own family and have nothing to do with Kim, Kim would spend the rest of her days talking about why Kyle is not a "real sister" and has never been there for her.  And while we're on that topic: What the hell does that even mean?  In order to "be there for" Kim, does it mean that you have to stand still while she flings poo at you like a monkey?  It can't be that you love her and want her best.  You have to actively take her part even when she's as wrong as two left shoes.

Apparently, being a REAL sister means keeping up appearances and being willing to suspend reality to do it. Narcissists live in a story they've made up and everyone around them is supposed to support that story - those who dare speak the truth are terrorized in one way or another. Kim loves it when she makes Kyle shake and cry - and then she hugs her little sis (like the scene in the kitchen at Kyle's desert house) and fucks with her head.

[LotusFlower]

Wasn't talking about her sobriety. Just that it in any situation no matter what the subject matter is if someone refers to the fact that Kyle isn't disputing Kim's version of things then it's most likely because Kyle is covering and it can't possibly be because Kim's version is accurate. That's the point I was trying to make.

But you can't separate the two. Kim has been a closeted alcoholic her entire adult life, so she's learned how to lie and make excuses with ease and savviness. It's now like the boy who cried wolf - it's hard to take her word on anything, esp. when someone else is giving an entirely different version.

I personally don't see Kyle as being abused I see her just getting her lumps for playing the situation in a way that garners sympathy for Kyle while admonishing Kim.

What Kim did to Kyle in the restaurant in Amsterdam was a stark and unequivocal example of verbal abuse, and that's just one example. The fight didn't even involve Kyle, but boy, did she get it.

[Sincerely Yours]

But you can't separate the two. Kim has been a closeted alcoholic her entire adult life, so she's learned how to lie and make excuses with ease and savviness. It's now like the boy who cried wolf - it's hard to take her word on anything, esp. when someone else is giving an entirely different version.

What Kim did to Kyle in the restaurant in Amsterdam was a stark and unequivocal example of verbal abuse, and that's just one example. The fight didn't even involve Kyle, but boy, did she get it.

Taking her word on anything is whomever's prerogative. It's when its stretched into Kyle not disputing Kim's version because Kyle is just covering for Kim is where I find its taken to a ridiculous extreme.

[LotusFlower]

Taking her word on anything is whomever's prerogative. It's when its stretched into Kyle not disputing Kim's version because Kyle is just covering for Kim is where I find its taken to a ridiculous extreme.

Welcome to the life of a co-dependent sister, who was admonished to always keep the family secrets. It's a hard habit to break.

[Sincerely Yours]

What Kim did to Kyle in the restaurant in Amsterdam was a stark and unequivocal example of verbal abuse, and that's just one example. The fight didn't even involve Kyle, but boy, did she get it.

I grew up on the streets of the Bronx so I guess my idea of verbal abuse is somewhat different. And from I can remember I've seen Kyle give it just as nasty with the verbal abuse towards Kim. Sisters going at it...? I don't know, personally I wouldn't get too text book with those exchanges. Especially since they both go back and forth with the loud, nasty, finger pointing accusations.

Welcome to the life of a co-dependent sister, who was admonished to always keep the family secrets. It's a hard habit to break.

Just because she'll always do it doesn't mean the situation always calls for her to.

[LotusFlower]

I grew up on the streets of the Bronx so I guess my idea of verbal abuse is somewhat different. And from I can remember I've seen Kyle give it just as nasty with the verbal abuse towards Kim.

A definition of non-physical abuse (verbal or emotional) is about how the victim receives it, how it makes them feel, because, of course, everyone is different. So if someone can throw a verbal jab at you and you can laugh it off, that's cool, but that's obviously not the case with Kyle. She takes everything personally, she cries, she's hurt, she gets defensive, and in this instance, it got so bad for her, she had to run out of there. And Kim knows this about Kyle, and takes advantage.

Just because she'll always do it doesn't mean the situation always calls for her to.

No - I think everyone (at least those sympathetic to Kyle's position in this co-dependent sister dynamic) wants to see Kyle break this cycle - stop covering for Kim! That's why I said it's a hard habit to break.

[zoeysmom]

A definition of non-physical abuse (verbal or emotional) is about how the victim receives it, how it makes them feel, because, of course, everyone is different. So if someone can throw a verbal jab at you and you can laugh it off, that's cool, but that's obviously not the case with Kyle. She takes everything personally, she cries, she's hurt, she gets defensive, and in this instance, it got so bad for her, she had to run out of there. And Kim knows this about Kyle, and takes advantage.

No - I think everyone (at least those sympathetic to Kyle's position in this co-dependent sister dynamic) wants to see Kyle break this cycle - stop covering for Kim! That's why I said it's a hard habit to break.

I think Kyle is starting to let the hurtful comments go by and now Kim has decided to go after Kyle's children.  What a terrible thing to say to someone that you will put their child in an unflattering light if they do not support your version of events.  And Kyle has a husband and three more daughters to protect.  If I were Kyle my kids would be permanently off limits to Kim.

[emma675]

The thing I find most exhausting and frustrating about Kim is that she always wants everything on her terms. She wants to dictate how every friend should treat her, how Kyle should be a sister to her, how the audience should view her, etc., regardless of how she is actually acting. It just seems like such classic narcissistic behavior. Kim never fully gets that you can't demand that people love or respect you, you have to earn that. Just because you want it doesn't mean you'll get it. And she just wants it all handed to her regardless of how she treats people.

Edited April 1, 2015 by emma675d

[nexxie]

I think Kyle is starting to let the hurtful comments go by and now Kim has decided to go after Kyle's children.  What a terrible thing to say to someone that you will put their child in an unflattering light if they do not support your version of events.  And Kyle has a husband and three more daughters to protect.  If I were Kyle my kids would be permanently off limits to Kim.

Yep - Kim is upping the ante. Horrible.

[Wings]

I do not see Kim abusing Kyle.  The word abuse is thrown around way too casually as is the word bully.  They are the catch words of this time. 

 

Kyle, has the choice in how to react to Kim.  We only have control over our reactions.  We have no power over anyone else's behavior and we can not ask another to behave in a way that suits us.   Never give another the power to hurt or offend you.  Another's behavior is all about them and has NOTHING to do with you.  Kyle is not a victim though she certainly sees herself that way!  

[zoeysmom]

I do not see Kim abusing Kyle.  The word abuse is thrown around way too casually as is the word bully.  They are the catch words of this time. 

 

Kyle, has the choice in how to react to Kim.  We only have control over our reactions.  We have no power over anyone else's behavior and we can not ask another to behave in a way that suits us.   Never give another the power to hurt or offend you.  Another's behavior is all about them and has NOTHING to do with you.  Kyle is not a victim though she certainly sees herself that way!  

I think last night she improved.  When Kim made her little happy speech Kyle just gave a one sentence answer.  From past behavior of Kyle's I expected Mom to be tossed out there, family honor a few tears and all I have done for you.  If Kyle keeps this up next season I can see a White Party and no invite for Kim.  That would be progress for Kyle but a step backwards for Kim and Bravo.

 

I think the word abused, bully and victim have been over used by the RH and I am sure they are working overtime for appropriate synonyms.

[LotusFlower]

I do not see Kim abusing Kyle.  The word abuse is thrown around way too casually as is the word bully.  They are the catch words of this time. 

But Kyle does - that's the point I was trying to make. Kyle has the disposition she has, the history with Kim, the family dynamics, the emotional weakness, etc... None of us do. So if Kyle is feeling abused, then it's a legitimate feeling that she's experiencing.

 

Kyle, has the choice in how to react to Kim.  We only have control over our reactions.  We have no power over anyone else's behavior and we can not ask another to behave in a way that suits us.   Never give another the power to hurt or offend you.  Another's behavior is all about them and has NOTHING to do with you.  Kyle is not a victim though she certainly sees herself that way!

When someone abuses you, you are being victimized. However, you can do something about it - like not responding or engaging, or even cutting the abuser out of your life. I agree with Zoeysmom that Kyle seems to be making progress on this front. Telling Kim that she's willing to have a conversation (or do therapy) with Kim, but only if it's an honest conversation, was a huge positive. And she didn't react nearly as teary and dramatically as she's done in the past.

[SwordQueen]

SistaLadybug, I'm out of "likes" for the day, but I love your posts on this subject. 

 

 

Sad, yes, but this isn't about whether I'd want her life. It just seems like circular logic and a blanket excuse. Her addiction is both the cause and excuse for everything. As long as she's the one who's really suffering here because she's the addict that just feeds into her self-righteousness about it. I'd much rather be in Kyle's shoes than Kim's, but just because Kim should be suffering due to her illness doesn't mean she consciously is. Especially when you add things like "being scrutinized" to her list of burdens. She doesn't seem that carefully scrutinized to me, except when she's throwing up red flags. If she's an addict with income, people who support her (or cover for her), access to drugs that could be pretty cool, especially if she thinks other people are the ones disappointing her and she's not too bothered by slipping. 

 

I agree with this and I don't think Kim is suffering, in the conscious sense,  when she's in the depths of what appears to be a Narcissistic episode.  That's a big reason for the Narcissism -- the masking of pain, emptiness, and insecurity with a façade of invincibility, perfection, and righteousness.  So she's feeling no pain, no suffering , but is instead, inflicting that pain and suffering onto others while feeding on the energy and emotion that they offer her.  It's when Kim is actually alone with herself that the mask crumbles and she suffers.  But as long as she has something, someone's attention, admiration, gratitude, fear, obedience, etc. to reflect in, she's consciously fine.  Kyle, Monty, Brandi, Gay Bullmastiff, and Kingsley are good examples of this. 

 

Kyle is not keeping Kim from recovering.  Kim is keeping Kim from recovering.  Kim could go into a rehab program, where she'd be "safe" from Bad Sister Kyle.  Better Sister Kathy could take Kim in, where she'd be "safe" from Bad Sister Kyle.  But that would mean quitting the drugs and having to look herself in the mirror, without the mask, and Kim doesn't want to do that.  Being an addict is hard, horrible stuff, but no harder than many other illnesses and disorders, and aside from the physiological addiction aspect, no harder than life, in general, for a lot of people.  Being honest with yourself about the demons inside of you is not easy for anyone.  That's why a lot of people hide from them behind drugs, alcohol, sex, money, food, sleep, work, etc. 

 

I haven't seen Kim trying to work on herself in a real way, which means being honest with oneself, nor have I seen Kyle trying to keep her down.  I think Kyle would like nothing more than to see Kim happy and healthy, if not for Kim herself, than for Kim's kids, whom we know to be close to Kyle and her own children.  But as immature and mean girl as Kyle can be I refuse to believe that she wants Kim to be ill like this.  I just haven't seen it onscreen and I don't see it when I look at Kyle and her personality.  From what I've experienced and seen in real life, even if someone dislikes or hates a relative, they still didn't want them to be sick and suffering. 

 

It's so very hard to deal with these situations.  I think for so many people, they try so hard to "fix" their ill loved one, and spend so much time loving and caring and worrying for them, that in the end, when the ill loved one invariably shits all over that - because no one can "fix" another person - they get so fed up and react in a resentful clusterfuck of "Screw you, I'm out. You're on your own!".  There are not many easy answers or objectively right ways to deal with this, so it's a lot of trial and error and enabling or rejecting.   

[Wings]

 

But Kyle does - that's the point I was trying to make. Kyle has the disposition she has, the history with Kim, the family dynamics, the emotional weakness, etc... None of us do. So if Kyle is feeling abused, then it's a legitimate feeling that she's experiencing.

 

 

Sure.  Of course her feelings are real.  She feels sad and angry.  They are sisters fighting.  Kim is an asshole.  I just think the word abuse does not fit this situation. 

[notnowimbusy]

If Kim is as happy with her life, as she said last night, I'd hate to see her unhappy.   She not only wants/demands Kyle unquestioningly support her - in all circumstances, this year she upped the ante by including Brandi, and pushing Brandi in Kyle's face.   She was baiting Kyle, using Brandi, to pull away - then Kim could say "see, I knew she didn't support me".    She looked shocked when Kyle said "If/"when", we speak, I'd only be interested in an honest conversation".   There was a brief moment where she shifted in her seat, and I was expecting her to go nuts, like in PS.   She stopped herself, but it seemed that she really wanted to respond.

 

Right now, with Monty, Kim is getting what she needs.  Love from him, and all the adulation from others - "Oh Kim, you are such a saint for taking care of Monty".  When he dies, she will slide - and blame everybody for not supporting her.  

[LotusFlower]

Sure.  Of course her feelings are real.  She feels sad and angry.  They are sisters fighting.  Kim is an asshole.  I just think the word abuse does not fit this situation.

But it does if she says it does, according to a school of thought in psychology. I agree with you about the overuse and misuse of the word "bully," but abuse is different.

[WireWrap]

Kim was with Brooke in Cabo this past weekend.  I guess taking care of Monty and driving her family members back and forth between the doctors and hospitals was well a great big lie to tell Brandi.

Well, maybe it is Brandi lying about the text/email from Kim to begin with. I am not willing to believe that Kim is now all of a sudden talking/texting/emailing Brandi just because Brandi said so. IMO, Brandi is just saying that now because the reunion has started and she needs to make everyone think Kim is still in her corner, she needs Kim's few supporters to help bolster the dwindling supporters she has left and with Kim MIA on twitter/blogs, there is no one to discredit her claims.

[LotusFlower]

SistaLadybug, I'm out of "likes" for the day, but I love your posts on this subject.

Me too.

[Higgins]

Please understand I wasn't blaming you for the comment.  To me this group of women need to be smarter and dispute when Kim does the big "and what about your husband," or "you won't like the story I tell,". It is just something that only works once for me and then I call someone on it.   BTW it is not just Kim they need to callout-callout Brandi for claiming she watched Eileen and Lisa when she was in high school-Brandi would have been 22 years old.  These women and their posse need to be at least half as smart as the viewers.

No worries, I didn't take it that way at all

[zoeysmom]

No worries, I didn't take it that way at all

In the "Seasons in Review" thread I posted a link to Bravo and several clips of Km and Kyle and right there is a clip of Kyle sitting next to Kim's bed and Kingsley as calm as can be taking a nap.  It makes the dog issue more confusing than ever.  So were people relying on the TV show to see the gentle nature of Kingsley/  Did Kyle err by failing to instill in her daughter that was a freak scene.

[Sincerely Yours]

A definition of non-physical abuse (verbal or emotional) is about how the victim receives it, how it makes them feel, because, of course, everyone is different. So if someone can throw a verbal jab at you and you can laugh it off, that's cool, but that's obviously not the case with Kyle. She takes everything personally, she cries, she's hurt, she gets defensive, and in this instance, it got so bad for her, she had to run out of there. And Kim knows this about Kyle, and takes advantage.

No - I think everyone (at least those sympathetic to Kyle's position in this co-dependent sister dynamic) wants to see Kyle break this cycle - stop covering for Kim! That's why I said it's a hard habit to break.

Wait didn't she run out while Lisa R and Kim were having their confrontation? Everything you described are also traits of a drama queen. I say that because if I recall correctly Kyle ran out during the back and forth with LisaR. That different than running away scared because she's the one being "attacked" or "abused" or what have you.

 

So if someone "feels" abused then they are? So that means the person being accused just needs to accept that label and guilt just like that? AND the label is warranted just like that? There is no threshold? Scratching my head on that one. All I'm saying is that you can't run around screaming and pointing and yelling and screaming and then call it abuse when you don't like it when it's done to you. Kyle displays the same inappropriate behavior when she's mad at someone too. We've seen it. Sure it's asshole behavior but not every screaming match I have with my sister, and we've had a lot, is abuse. I mean it's not nice and all that but we aren't perfect people in a perfect society. Abuse means their is a victim and I don't see how Kyle is some victim. We've seen her give it just as nasty back to Kim.

 

She's on the other end of some real trying shit in her life for sure but I think there is no real evidence to suggest that because she's unhappy with the circumstances of her sisters life and her role in that that now she's abused? Emotionally distraught, and torn granted, but she's not rendered helpless by Kim. I mean should she go into protective hiding now? Halfway house, change her identify? Pick up the kids and run to a shelter? 

 

 Oh boy, the chasms we jump and terms we spin just to make our points.

But it does if she says it does, according to a school of thought in psychology. I agree with you about the overuse and misuse of the word "bully," but abuse is different.

Kyle says things for affect. Look back on past seasons and take a look at how Kyle has no problem being assertive, aggressive, snippy, and nasty in certain circumstances with Kim as well as with other housewives. Now Kyle's some helpless waif that's been suffering abuse all this time at the hands of her big bad sister Kim. That's just way over the top logic for me to process.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Sincerely Yours

[Wings]

But it does if she says it does, according to a school of thought in psychology. I agree with you about the overuse and misuse of the word "bully," but abuse is different.

 

 

 

My background is in psychology and I respectfully disagree.  Emotional abuse has a definition.  

 

"Psychological abuse, also referred to as emotional abuse or mental abuse, is a form of abuse characterized by a person subjecting or exposing another to behavior that may result in psychological trauma, including anxiety, chronic depression, or post-traumatic stress disorder."

 

"One definition of emotional abuse is: "any act including confinement, isolation, verbal assault, humiliation, intimidation, infantilization, or any other treatment which may diminish the sense of identity, dignity, and self-worth."1

Emotional abuse is also known as psychological abuse or as "chronic verbal aggression" by researchers. People who suffer from emotional abuse tend to have very low self-esteem, show personality changes (such as becoming withdrawn) and may even become depressed, anxious or suicidal."

[zoeysmom]

My background is in psychology and I respectfully disagree.  Emotional abuse has a definition.  

 

"Psychological abuse, also referred to as emotional abuse or mental abuse, is a form of abuse characterized by a person subjecting or exposing another to behavior that may result in psychological trauma, including anxiety, chronic depression, or post-traumatic stress disorder."

 

"One definition of emotional abuse is: "any act including confinement, isolation, verbal assault, humiliation, intimidation, infantilization, or any other treatment which may diminish the sense of identity, dignity, and self-worth."1

Emotional abuse is also known as psychological abuse or as "chronic verbal aggression" by researchers. People who suffer from emotional abuse tend to have very low self-esteem, show personality changes (such as becoming withdrawn) and may even become depressed, anxious or suicidal."

Maybe the term for Kim should just be verbally abusive. One can certainly use abusive language towards another without the person becoming suicidal.  I know verbal abuse when I hear it and what Kim was saying to Kyle, Eileen and Lisa was verbal abuse.  She crossed over from defending herself to becoming abusive and offensive.  

[quinn]

I think that the true test for how much Kyle has progressed in terms of her co-dependency is if when Kim hits rock bottom will Kyle pull her bacon out of the fire?  I've said it before that I think that Kim and Kyle have danced this dance before, at first I was going to say that it is amped up because they are on a reality show, and that is true, but in previous years it was amped up because small children are involved.  I think that the antagonists in previous dances were likely Kim's romantic partners rather than a co-star on  reality show.
 
Now if Kyle disconnects and takes the position that at most she will show up for a therapy session or a family day but overall not get caught up in Kim's life until Kim has been sober, getting treatment / working a program and behaving like a decent human being for at least a year, but I think that two is better, and if after that she works on building a different and healthier relationship with Kim, then I will say that Kyle has slayed the dragon of co-dependency,  .
 
However I'm inclined to think that that if Kim falls and needs rescuing that Kyle will come running for two reasons:
1.  She gets off on rescuing / crisis management, she will not be able to resist being in Kim's company in order to tell her "I told you so," and she hopes that Kim will admit that she made a mistake.  Kim tries mightily to avoid taking responsibility, but she grovelled in her post-rehab interview with Andy Cohen and if she needs something from Kyle I think that she will apologize / take responsibility for her misdeeds.   
 
2. Now that Kim and Kyle are public figures, there is media interest in them individually and as a duo and since Kim isn't into that aspect of her celebrity, and Kyle is, she really is, if the public is aware that Kim has had some kind of setback, Kyle will gladly serve as the spokesperson regarding Kim's welfare.  I can see her now exiting Mr. Chow's and giving a statement as she and Mauricio make their way to their car.
 
I don't have a problem with the "Kyle comes running" scenario, but at the same time I can't bring myself to be too worked up over Kyle being "mistreated" by Kim because I think that Kyle will eventually get a payoff that she will be more than pleased with.

Edited April 2, 2015 by quinn

[SCS]

Maybe the term for Kim should just be verbally abusive. One can certainly use abusive language towards another without the person becoming suicidal. I know verbal abuse when I hear it and what Kim was saying to Kyle, Eileen and Lisa was verbal abuse. She crossed over from defending herself to becoming abusive and offensive.

Disagree. If any and every voiced negative comment is considered verbal abuse then the phrase has completely lost its meaning. Kim calling Eileen a beast was an insult (and probably a day in the life for lots of actors) but not verbal abuse -- also, a dumb insult since Eileen is definitely non-beast like . Kim telling Rinna to eat bread or that she'll reveal something about Harry isn't verbal abuse-- it's a passive aggressive way of slamming Rinna (and Kyle, who may have over shared confidences, such as Lisa spends too much time worrying about her appearance or said xyz about her husband) -- kind of like middle school girls saying, "is that really how you're wearing your hair" or "a bunch of us were talking about you but I can't say who"-- words sans meaning designed to provoke. If Kim went on the attack after Rinna constantly, creating a pattern of these kinds of comments then it would be different but we have not seen that.

As for the Kim-Kyle interactions, Kyle gives as good as she gets. From my watching all the seasons, Kyle has a different approach. She talks and whines and complains endlessly, freely (and quite publicly) about how Kim is so difficult to have in her life. Poor Kyle! And Kim, whose behavior is abhorrent at times, seems to have latched onto Brandi as her second, most likely because it's rare that some takes her side and the support is alluring but misguided. Kim and Kyle fight like sisters with bad history and , if there is any true verbal abuse is their relationship, I'd say both are equally guilty.

[Sincerely Yours]

My background is in psychology and I respectfully disagree.  Emotional abuse has a definition.  

 

"Psychological abuse, also referred to as emotional abuse or mental abuse, is a form of abuse characterized by a person subjecting or exposing another to behavior that may result in psychological trauma, including anxiety, chronic depression, or post-traumatic stress disorder."

 

"One definition of emotional abuse is: "any act including confinement, isolation, verbal assault, humiliation, intimidation, infantilization, or any other treatment which may diminish the sense of identity, dignity, and self-worth."1

Emotional abuse is also known as psychological abuse or as "chronic verbal aggression" by researchers. People who suffer from emotional abuse tend to have very low self-esteem, show personality changes (such as becoming withdrawn) and may even become depressed, anxious or suicidal."

Agreed.

I think that the true test for how much Kyle has progressed in terms of her co-dependency is if when Kim hits rock bottom will Kyle pull her bacon out of the fire.  I've said it before that I think that Kim and Kyle have danced this dance before, at first I was going to say that it is amped up because they are on a reality show, and that is true, but in previous years it was amped up because small children are involved.  I think that the antagonists in previous dances were likely Kim's romantic partners rather than a co-star on  reality show.

 

Now if Kyle disconnects and takes the position that at most she will show up for a therapy session or a family day but overall not get caught up in Kim's life until Kim has been sober, getting treatment / working a program and behaving like a decent human being for at least a year, but I think that two is better, then I will say that Kyle has slayed the dragon of co-dependency, and if she wishes try to build a different and healthier relationship with Kim .

 

However I inclined that if Kim falls and needs rescuing that Kyle will come running for two reasons:

1.  She gets off on rescuing / crisis management, she will not be able to resist being in Kim's company in order to tell her "I told you so," and she hopes that Kim will admit that she made a mistake.  Kim tries mightily to avoid taking responsibility, but she grovelled in her post-rehab interview with Andy Cohen and if she needs something from Kyle I think that she will apologize / take responsibility for her misdeeds.   

 

2. Now that Kim and Kyle are public figures, there is media interest in them individually and as a duo and since Kim isn't into that aspect of her celebrity, and Kyle is, she really is, if the public is aware that Kim has had some kind of setback, Kyle will gladly serve as the spokesperson regarding Kim's welfare.  I can see her now exiting Mr. Chow's and giving a statement and she and Mauricio make their way to their car.

 

I don't have a problem with the "Kyle comes running" scenario, but at the same time I can't bring myself to be too worked up over Kyle being mistreated by Kim because I think that Kyle will eventually get a payoff that she will be more than pleased with.

Standing ovation!

Edited April 2, 2015 by Sincerely Yours

[Sincerely Yours]

Disagree. If any and every voiced negative comment is considered verbal abuse then the phrase has completely lost its meaning. Kim calling Eileen a beast was an insult (and probably a day in the life for lots of actors) but not verbal abuse -- also, a dumb insult since Eileen is definitely non-beast like . Kim telling Rinna to eat bread or that she'll reveal something about Harry isn't verbal abuse-- it's a passive aggressive way of slamming Rinna (and Kyle, who may have over shared confidences, such as Lisa spends too much time worrying about her appearance or said xyz about her husband) -- kind of like middle school girls saying, "is that really how you're wearing your hair" or "a bunch of us were talking about you but I can't say who"-- words sans meaning designed to provoke. If Kim went on the attack after Rinna constantly, creating a pattern of these kinds of comments then it would be different but we have not seen that.

As for the Kim-Kyle interactions, Kyle gives as good as she gets. From my watching all the seasons, Kyle has a different approach. She talks and whines and complains endlessly, freely (and quite publicly) about how Kim is so difficult to have in her life. Poor Kyle! And Kim, whose behavior is abhorrent at times, seems to have latched onto Brandi as her second, most likely because it's rare that some takes her side and the support is alluring but misguided. Kim and Kyle fight like sisters with bad history and , if there is any true verbal abuse is their relationship, I'd say both are equally guilty.

Love this!

 

"most likely because it's rare that some takes her side and the support is alluring but misguided." (I can't bold)

 

but this stood out to me too. I do think her attachment to Brandi is because the allure of having someone on her side is rare. Just because we know that Kyle "keep the family secrets" isn't the same as being on Kim's side and honestly I'm not saying that Kyle is supposed to be all ride or die to a ridiculous extent but I've seen Kyle be dismissive and unconcerned with Kim during normal interactions that have nothing to do with an enibriated Kim. Even if such an attitude has stemmed from resentments over the addiction, I would think the sting is very real and hard for Kim to handle and feels it as Kyle not being there for her. I really don't think all of Kim's comments about being hurt by Kyle has to do with some sort of curtain Kyle was expected to keep up for her and faultered a bit. I think some of Kim's pain is about the simple things, the basic loyalties, the interactions, the cold shoulders etc. Stuff from Kyle that were in situations that had nothing to do with Kim not being sober. Sister type things.

 

I think that's a big part of her relationship with Brandi. I don't think it's just because "Kim can be off the wagon all she wants and Brandi will turn a blind eye" I think it's cause she let's Kim be Kim without making EVERYTHING about her sobriety. I feel like Brandi gives her a way to not always have to live inside that bubble where everything has to follow a certain script and a daily check list of things that PROVES her sobriety. And sure if she misses a checkbox then she won't be racked over the coals. I get that it's not the text book way things go but at the same time there isn't any specific rule book just guidelines and people do the best they can with what they can and for ever long they can and I think that's the way Kim's on again, off again battle with sobriety goes. It's not ideal but I mean what can you do?

Edited April 2, 2015 by Sincerely Yours