Shelby August 22, 2015 Share August 22, 2015 Ah jesus. My dad's entire family lives in that town. They even have their own "holler." You can go up the road and visit just about everyone on my dad's side of the familly. I bet they know this guy. I bet some of my cousins have...you know what, never mind. Hell, this Kelsei person might be my cousin somehow. My niece used to buy Gandee's Candies when Shane was still alive. She was devastated when he died. :( Gross me out the door! Mona, whenever I think I am 40-something and have lived too much much of a life to be shocked by anything, you come along and just horrify me. And I love it. <3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438299
Shelby August 22, 2015 Share August 22, 2015 I'm sorry but can I get some clarification on what a holler is? I'm from New Jersey, and I've heard the phrase (on The Ashley, mostly!) "The hollers of West Virginia," and I looked it up on Urban dictionary, and it said the valley in between mountains? s. Apparently one is NEVER to mention if they look up something on Urban Dictionary. My friend's daughter was completely mortified when I mentioned that I did this. I managed to embarrass her in front of her friends, and I wasn't even trying. I got a whole whiny/tyrade/lecture/speech all-in-one on the car ride home about how one must never admit openly to looking up something on Urban Dictionary. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438319
lezlers August 22, 2015 Share August 22, 2015 I don't know about how the court works there but, here? You better not do that if you want to keep your custodial status. It's stupid. But it's looked at like you can't properly care for your children, made a mistake thinking you could, and custody will automatically be shifted over to the other parent. No joke. I don't understand it because, um, hello? I have an emergency, I'm gonna have the kids' dad take over so I can deal with this. Nope. Get a babysitter if you want to keep custody of your kids. Makes no damn sense. Custody won't shift unless one parent takes the other to court though. So as long as the parent who is watching the kids for the other parent doesn't act like a dick and drag them to court, it would be no problem. Also, in many custody cases the other parent has "right of first refusal" meaning, if the custodial parent needs childcare for whatever reason, the non-custodial parent is supposed to be asked first, before anyone else. That kind of goes against what you're saying. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438394
truelovekiss August 22, 2015 Share August 22, 2015 Apparently one is NEVER to mention if they look up something on Urban Dictionary. My friend's daughter was completely mortified when I mentioned that I did this. I managed to embarrass her in front of her friends, and I wasn't even trying. I got a whole whiny/tyrade/lecture/speech all-in-one on the car ride home about how one must never admit openly to looking up something on Urban Dictionary. Oh dear. Sorry to offend, I had no idea it was such a social faux pas. The language is rather vulgar on the website, so I guess I can understand that. How old is your friend's daughter? I'm 23 and my friends have spoken about urban dictionary several times. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438410
zenme August 22, 2015 Share August 22, 2015 Oh dear. Sorry to offend, I had no idea it was such a social faux pas. The language is rather vulgar on the website, so I guess I can understand that. How old is your friend's daughter? I'm 23 and my friends have spoken about urban dictionary several times I think they're embarrassed because they may feel that if one has to look something up on Urban Dictionary, then it's like admitting they're not "cool" or in the know. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438423
BitterApple August 22, 2015 Share August 22, 2015 I think they're embarrassed because they may feel that if one has to look something up on Urban Dictionary, then it's like admitting they're not "cool" or in the know. Now that I'm officially an old fart at 37, Urban Dictionary has become my go-to. Thanks to them I finally know what "thot" and "fleek" mean. 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438450
monagatuna August 22, 2015 Share August 22, 2015 (edited) Gross me out the door! Mona, whenever I think I am 40-something and have lived too much much of a life to be shocked by anything, you come along and just horrify me. And I love it. <3 OK, I'll save the origin story of my parents' friend named "Gummy" for then. Also I'll have to count up the times members of my family have gotten romantically entangled with someone who is technically related to them by marriage, and the story of how my uncle's wife left him for my sister's high school boyfriend*. It's entertaining for sure. The fact that Teen Mom is the only reality show currently being filmed in the Elk River Valley is kind of amazing to me. I want my mom to get out of there so bad, but she won't leave while my grandmother is still alive, which I understand. The good news is that people in that area like my grandmother still exist, and they make up the backbone of the community. Tough as nails, well into their 80s and still live alone, drive safely, and take care of themselves, and take no BS from anyone. *Edited for clarity: the boyfriend she dated in high school; he wasn't high-school aged at the time this happened. Edited August 22, 2015 by monagatuna 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438495
truelovekiss August 22, 2015 Share August 22, 2015 I think they're embarrassed because they may feel that if one has to look something up on Urban Dictionary, then it's like admitting they're not "cool" or in the know. Okay, I guess that makes sense but it still seems silly to me. Every time a new slang term is introduced, everyone hears it for the first time once, you know? Like when "on fleek" started to be a thing, I would just see pictures of eyebrows with the caption. It's not like there's a whole lot of context clues to go on. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438737
MissMel August 22, 2015 Share August 22, 2015 Custody won't shift unless one parent takes the other to court though. So as long as the parent who is watching the kids for the other parent doesn't act like a dick and drag them to court, it would be no problem. Also, in many custody cases the other parent has "right of first refusal" meaning, if the custodial parent needs childcare for whatever reason, the non-custodial parent is supposed to be asked first, before anyone else. That kind of goes against what you're saying. That's exactly my point. Nobody asked for "right of first refusal" in our case. That means, when I had a family emergency two states away, had I left my children with their dad, he could have gotten an emergency hearing while I was gone and obtained custody. It was my weekend so I left the kids with my dad. I know it sounds odd. It IS how things are done here, though. Family court is no joke. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438738
truelovekiss August 22, 2015 Share August 22, 2015 Now that I'm officially an old fart at 37, Urban Dictionary has become my go-to. Thanks to them I finally know what "thot" and "fleek" mean. I had to look up "bae." For the longest time, I thought it was a typo for babe...or a nickname for Rumplestiltskin's son in Once Upon a Time. And I had to look up the title of a certain Nicki Minaj song, featuring Drake and Lil Wayne that scarred me for life. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438749
lezlers August 22, 2015 Share August 22, 2015 (edited) I imagine Jo did ask for this. That's the thing, it has to be asked for. My ex (nor I) asked for it. We have to abide by the basic guidelines. Which are exactly as I posted. It's weird, all the same. :) So then why didn't you ask for it? I'm not asking that to start shit, I'm genuinely curious. You sound like you don't like the fact that you can't leave your kids with their father when you need to because your custody agreement won't let you, but that agreement can be easily changed via modification of the existing order. ETA: Sorry, I just read your response above. Sounds like your ex is the kind of dick that WOULD drag you back to court if you left the kids with him in an emergency. What a jackass. Sorry you have to deal with that. :( I doubt Corey or Jo would pull that shit, tho. That was my point. Edited August 22, 2015 by lezlers 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438756
MissMel August 22, 2015 Share August 22, 2015 (edited) No, no, no. I don't mind how things are. I was just commenting on how weird it is. The court really does look at these things in an odd fashion. One would think the other parent would be the correct choice to care for the children, if needed. But no. You could lose your kids for thinking that! I didn't and wouldn't ask for it. My ex works out of town most of the month. This is why we just agreed to the basic guidelines; he's not in town enough to need more time. (Plus, most of our kids are adults now. A couple have their own kids. We only have one minor child (teen) left between us.) Edited August 22, 2015 by MissMel Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438782
cheatincheetos August 22, 2015 Share August 22, 2015 Apparently one is NEVER to mention if they look up something on Urban Dictionary. My friend's daughter was completely mortified when I mentioned that I did this. Maybe it's like admitting that one isn't "hip" anymore. I like having it so I can halfway understand the "kids" these days. :) 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438794
GreatKazu August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 I had to look up "bae." For the longest time, I thought it was a typo for babe...or a nickname for Rumplestiltskin's son in Once Upon a Time. And I had to look up the title of a certain Nicki Minaj song, featuring Drake and Lil Wayne that scarred me for life. Big Poopi calls Kail "bae". What a dork. Yes, dork. I am showing my age. Like when "on fleek" started to be a thing, I would just see pictures of eyebrows with the caption. It's not like there's a whole lot of context clues to go on. Going to check Urban Dictionary. No shame in my game. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438875
cheatincheetos August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 She would be if the show were called "Who the Fuck Do You Think You Are?" "Next, on a very special West Virginia episode of 'Why the Fuck Are You Famous, Again?'..." 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438882
Shelby August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 Oh dear. Sorry to offend, I had no idea it was such a social faux pas. The language is rather vulgar on the website, so I guess I can understand that. How old is your friend's daughter? I'm 23 and my friends have spoken about urban dictionary several times. No offense taken! It was news to me, My correction came from a know-it-all girl of 12. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438886
GreatKazu August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 "Next, on a very special West Virginia episode of 'Why the Fuck Are You Famous, Again?'..." I'd love to see a special West Virginia episode of "Celebrity Rehab" where we'd see Leah with her addiction problems including her addictions to Mountain Dew and Cheetos. Then, she can switch over to that special West Viriginia episode of "Sex Rehab" where the whole Messer family can be treated. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438890
TaxNerd August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 No offense taken! It was news to me, My correction came from a know-it-all girl of 12. I'm just glad I'm not the only over 35 Mom who still watches MTV :) 9 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438895
ebkitty August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 (edited) Nope you have lots of moms over the age of 35 watching! Lol! Edited August 23, 2015 by ebkitty 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438911
Shelby August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 I had to look up "bae." For the longest time, I thought it was a typo for babe...or a nickname for Rumplestiltskin's son in Once Upon a Time. And I had to look up the title of a certain Nicki Minaj song, featuring Drake and Lil Wayne that scarred me for life. I had to UD BAE when Pink came out with panties that said, "USA is BAE." Ilearmed when one is speaking of a person and not a place the "A" becomes anyone instead of anything. I imagine Janelle only wears "Janelle is BAE"panties, with the tops of selfie cupcakes stuck onto them with sticky meth lab leftovers. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438915
lezlers August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 I'm just glad I'm not the only over 35 Mom who still watches MTV :) 37 over here. No shame! 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438928
Shelby August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 (edited) I'm just glad I'm not the only over 35 Mom who still watches MTV :)I'm in my early forties and not even a Mom, and I don't like kids. Well, most kids anyway because parents these days let their brats run amok.Total shame here, I'm a closet TM watcher, only my DH and BFF know. Edited August 23, 2015 by Shelby 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438936
MissMel August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 I'm 40, no shame. I'm watching, too! 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438947
GreatKazu August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 We're the Golden Girls! 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438949
WhitneyWhit August 23, 2015 Author Share August 23, 2015 (edited) Edited August 23, 2015 by WhitneyWhit Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438972
WhitneyWhit August 23, 2015 Author Share August 23, 2015 (edited) Oops Edited August 23, 2015 by WhitneyWhit Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438973
MissMel August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 Thank you for being a friend.... :D 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1438974
Mkay August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 36 Here. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1439039
Miss Chevious August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 In that case, I'm Sophia! My daughters got me started on this show 5 years ago and I've been watching it ever since. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1439154
zenme August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 (edited) I'm just glad I'm not the only over 35 Mom who still watches MTV :) Girrrl, I'm going to be 45. I was there for the original Real World with Tami, who is now on Basketball Wives, and watched when Dr. Drew and Adam Carolla had their show, Lovelines. It's funny how tame the MTV reality shows of the time were, compared to now. I could be the mother of Leah, or Kailyn, or even Farrah. I have kids who are 22 and 23, so technically, I guess I could be a grandmother and I watch MTV. Edited August 23, 2015 by zenme 9 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1439198
WhitneyWhit August 23, 2015 Author Share August 23, 2015 We're the Golden Girls! Picture it: West Virginia, 2014. A woman with three girlses and two husbands sneaks out for a night of passion. She runs to an ex, and for the next 35 seconds, they have the most mediocre sex you can imagine. As she sneaks out, she is caught by a deer cam. That woman, was Leah Messer Seems Calvert. The man, was Robbie Kidd. And to this day, it don't make no sense to Mama Dawn. 1 10 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1439209
GreatKazu August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 I go way back to the original Golden Girls: The Facts of Life. To keep with the Leah Messer topic here, I share with you a quote from Golden Girls that I think is very fitting for Leah: Blanche: "I treat my body like a temple." Sophia: "Yeah, open to everyone, day or night." 1 9 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1439251
guilfoyleatpp August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 I'm 45 too! It frightens me to think I could be these girls' mom (and that some of them have moms younger than me) and yet I have a 4 year old. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1439253
cheatincheetos August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 Hahahaha! She also mentioned how she wasn't getting enough sex. Both, Cory and Jeremy mentioned Leah is a terrible housekeeper. Well, that don't make no damn sense. She can't be a bad cleaner, they're always saying "I just got my paycheck and Leah took me to the cleaners already". 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1439429
Maharincess August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 Huh? That never happened. He kindly asked her for water. Thanks Tatum for clarifying for me that rumor about that supposed agreement between Leah and MTV. It's from the same rumor mill that says anybody who spends time with somebody on the show who has ever had a drug or alcohol problem is their "sober coach". That always cracks me up. The meth looking guy Adam hangs out with was automatically labeled his sober coach as if it was a fact. Rumors and opinions become " facts" very quickly. I don't remember Corey barking at Miranda about the water. He was sitting, she was up and headed his way so he asked for water. I've been sitting right next to my husband and have asked him to get up and get something for me because I'm too comfy to get up. He does the same, we get it for the other with no problem. And no barking. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1439456
cheatincheetos August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 I go way back to the original Golden Girls: The Facts of Life. To keep with the Leah Messer topic here, I share with you a quote from Golden Girls that I think is very fitting for Leah: Blanche: "I treat my body like a temple." Sophia: "Yeah, open to everyone, day or night." Only til 2 am on schoolnights. Kids gotta get their 5 hours of sleep, after all. I'd love to see a special West Virginia episode of "Celebrity Rehab" where we'd see Leah with her addiction problems including her addictions to Mountain Dew and Cheetos. Then, she can switch over to that special West Viriginia episode of "Sex Rehab" where the whole Messer family can be treated. Followed by a double episode of Tattoo Nightmares... 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1439470
Shelby August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 Only til 2 am on schoolnights. Kids gotta get their 5 hours of sleep, after all. Leah's such a sleepyhead and always running so late to get the girlses to school on time, that I'm surprised she just doesn't have Demon Child blow dry her own hair while in the bathtub to save time. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1439494
truelovekiss August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 Leah's such a sleepyhead and always running so late to get the girlses to school on time, that I'm surprised she just doesn't have Demon Child blow dry her own hair while in the bathtub to save time. I'm honestly impressed that Leah bathes them at all. I wouldn't be surprised if when the cameras weren't around, Leah just sprayed the girlses' with dry shampoo and some perfume. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1439502
Shelby August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 I'm honestly impressed that Leah bathes them at all. I wouldn't be surprised if when the cameras weren't around, Leah just sprayed the girlses' with dry shampoo and some perfume. Probably some stinky Britney Spears "designer imposter" perfume in a spray can. You just know Germy reeks of Axe body spray. Nipples too, come to think of it. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1439509
GreatKazu August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 I'm honestly impressed that Leah bathes them at all. I wouldn't be surprised if when the cameras weren't around, Leah just sprayed the girlses' with dry shampoo and some perfume. And likely doesn't wash their clothes. What did Jeremy say about their home? It looked like a homeless shelter or something? Gracie is so adamant with wanting to wear make-up. I suppose Leah sold her a Mary Kay kit when she was under the influence. She probably thought she was selling to a legit customer. 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1439579
Maharincess August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 (edited) We're the Golden Girls!Oh please! You're all babies.I have kids who are 30 and 31, older than some of you, and I have 2 grandkids. I was a teen mom so that's my excuse for watching. Edited August 23, 2015 by Maharincess 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1439620
cheatincheetos August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 (edited) And likely doesn't wash their clothes. What did Jeremy say about their home? It looked like a homeless shelter or something? He did say that. Kind of funny when you consider that he lives in a trailer most of the time, though he seems to keep it tidy, or just keeps too busy to be there enough to get it messy. Probably some stinky Britney Spears "designer imposter" perfume in a spray can. You just know Germy reeks of Axe body spray. Nipples too, come to think of it. Germy, maybe. What, isn't Farrah's Passy line of scents catching on? Going by his social media likes, he seems to have fairly lowbrow taste (that's not always a bad thing). Civil engineer Nipples probably smells of whichever "investor" or "stockholder" he last saw at the hotel. Edited August 23, 2015 by cheatincheetos 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1439647
lezlers August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 I'm 45 too! It frightens me to think I could be these girls' mom (and that some of them have moms younger than me) and yet I have a 4 year old. Yessss. I'm around the same age as Mama Dawn and I have a 3 year old and an 8 month old. If I lived in WV, I could totally be a grandma right now. That is terrifying. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1440113
guilfoyleatpp August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 I started watching on maternity leave. Definitely schadenfreude. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1440127
lovesnark August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 Looks like I'm the senior here at 58. If I was in WV, I could be Leah's great granny and the girlses great great granny. I started watching with my son when he was a teenager and my 30 year old daughter thinks it's hilarious that her mom watches MTV. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1440189
MaddyMaeboxerbabe August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 Someone older than me :). I am 55 and my 28 year old daughter got me hooked on all this several years ago. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1440213
crazychicken August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 Now I don't feel so bad watching I am 44 with 14 year old twins, it is crazy to me that the Teen Mom's became parents not much older than this I look at our boys and their friends and in no way are they anywhere near ready to be parents. I could not imagine becoming a mum at 16 and then a grandma at 32 like Delta Dawn, I just hope the cycle is broken and all the girlses at least learn from the past mistakes and hold off on children until they are a lot older. BTW with all us 'oldies' watching I do not think we are holding up the MTV line of reducing teen pregnancy we were all past the age when the show started 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1440276
Freckledbruh August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 I was there for the original Real World with Tami, "It wasn't not funny!!!!" Good times. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1440294
ktwo August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 (edited) I started watching on maternity leave. Definitely schadenfreude. Me, too - started watching 16&P with my youngest who I had at 35. He's a week younger than Bentley. Edited August 24, 2015 by ktwo 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1440319
GreatKazu August 23, 2015 Share August 23, 2015 (edited) Oh please! You're all babies. I have kids who are 30 and 31, older than some of you, and I have 2 grandkids. I was a teen mom so that's my excuse for watching. I have a 30 year old too. :-) I was there for the original Real World with Tami, My favorite season!! When Leah reaches my age she will have under her belt, four marriages, three former common-law partners, four orders of child support for four of her six children, and three grandchildren who will be living with her as she receives food stamps. Edited August 23, 2015 by GreatKazu 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/74937-jesus-god-leah/page/42/#findComment-1440461
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