Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Guest]

Yeah, the Ra's and LOA storyline was just terribly executed this season. A lot of things were badly executed but when you fail on the big bad and the reason for all the plots, you have a big problem. 

[FurryFury]

Slade was also executed pretty badly, but they struck gold with the casting (plus, he was written rather well pre-Mirakuru).

[calliope1975]

Slade was also executed pretty badly, but they struck gold with the casting (plus, he was written rather well pre-Mirakuru).

 

I agree. Up until Shado's death, Slade was written pretty well, and MB did a great job with him. After Shado died and the Mirakuru injection, the writing was terrible, but Slade/MB was still interesting to watch. His motives made no sense, but it was still interesting and sad to watch friends turn on each other. 

 

Ra's had a stupid, illogical plan, and the actor didn't live up to the character's hype. There were a few moments where I think I saw what they were going for, but overall, it was a fail for me. 

[Guest]

Slade was also executed pretty badly, but they struck gold with the casting (plus, he was written rather well pre-Mirakuru).

 

Very true. Manu was so wonderful that I often forget the flaws of Slade's storyline (mainly the ick with him loving Shado which I felt came out of nowhere but whatever!) and this is where casting definitely failed.

[KirkB]

Manu had enough presence and charisma you could just enjoy it when he was on screen, so long as you didn't think too hard about what he was doing or why. The casting was perfect, it was the story that was definitely the big letdown there.

 

With Ra's and the League, I don't think ANYTHING (except Nyssa) worked. 

[blixie]

I am bitter about innoculation via magic skin graft exposition. I'm a bitter about an airborne virus that is only triggered when the vector bleeds/dies. I'm bitter thick as the proverbial brick Oliver had to be told AGAIN to fight to live. I'm bitter Ras al Ghul was John Bender's Dad. I'm bitter Nyssa, Thea, and Sara all had their agency and lives debased to facilitate Malcolm Merlin's story line.

 

finally I'm bitter I'm going to watch Arrow S4 if only to follow the set up for the spin off, which actually looks like the exciting, fun/dumb cheese I like my superhero shows to be.

Edited May 14, 2015 by blixie

[FurryFury]

I want more than fun dumb cheese, which is why I'm dropping Flash after this season (most likely). I want good, well written stories that make sense. I don't think superhero genre means i can't get them.

Edited May 14, 2015 by FurryFury

[Starfish35]

From spoiler thread:

I love Sara. I'm so done with Arrow that the only episodes i might watch next season are Sara and/or Felicity centric episodes.

Yeah....I don't know.

For a show I've been so obsessed with over the last two-three years, I can't even explain how I am suddenly just so over it. It's like a complete burnout on all things Arrow. I still like the characters (minus Laurel as always), but I just can't muster up any sense of caring about what happens to them anymore, and I'm not even sure why. Last year after the season ended I was so angry about the whole jacket-passing thing and what that meant for Sara, and Laurel becoming BC, and I wasn't going to watch anymore. But there were still things I wanted to see in spite of that - Felicity backstory, Diggle and HIVE, Thea and Malcolm's story, Katana. Most of those things didn't happen (HIVE) or were disappointments (Katana didn't happen until the very end of the season) or outright horrifying (Thea and Malcolm). Donna Smoak was really the only ray of sunshine.

But now looking forward to next year...I'm not angry. I just can't find it in myself to get interested in anything coming up for the characters, at least that we currently know of. The only reason at this point for me to still watch at least the first part of the season is the setup for LoT. That's it. I had a momentary flash of excitement over the thought that KL might join the cast, but obviously that didn't happen.

I don't know. I might get over this sometime over the next five months, or we might get some new spoilers that catch my interest. Or maybe 4A will be good enough to convince me that it's worth continuing with 4B (I'm not holding my breath). I just know right now I just feel kind of done. Not in a ragequitting way. Just in a tired "I think I've had enough" way. :(

Edited May 15, 2015 by Starfish35

[Chaser]

I'm on the fence about watching next season. I like somethings they are talking about doing next season, but I'm concerned with how they will take the fans/critics responses this season.

[wonderwall]

Well I'm going to give season 4a a chance. If I don't get good diggle/felicity centered arcs then I'll most probably watch season 4b online or something. I'm only with this show for Oliver diggle and felicity. If it weren't for them I'd have been long gone.

I like what they're talking about so far. Not much laurel, Sara coming back, Felicitys father and more back story with hopefully more donna, and diggle with HIVE. I'm also interested in seeing how diggle and Oliver will deal with their issues and whether or not felicity will have to intervene at one point.

Season 4 has the potential to be good. I didn't get that feeling for season 3 because by the time SDCC rolled around I thought that the show was taking on too much too fast and it obviously suffered for it.

I still care about the characters minus laurel. I want to see the show be good again and I guess I'm not ready to write it off. I'll enter next season with zero expectations though so there's that

[tv echo]

I'm also giving Season 4A a chance - unless whatever spoilers we hear around SDCC time turn me off...

[nksarmi]

LOL I'm so easy.  As much as I've been frustrated with the Ra's story this year - I'm so willing to give them a chance with Darhk and HIVE next season.

 

A big bad with a strong connection to Diggle?  I'm totally in for that.

Oliver and Thea team ups? Yes please!

The very good chance that Oliver and Felicity will just be together and we won't get any more will they/won't they angst? The show will get 10x better with that alone!

The likelihood that Felicity will own Palmer Tech? Awesome!

And the Russian mafia story with Oliver getting darker in the flashbacks and Oliver likely getting lighter in present day?  I think I'm down for that as well.

 

I'm also completely excited about LoT and whatever ties in with that on Arrow will probably make me happy as well.

 

I realize I might be wanting to pull my hair out at some point next season, but I'm definitely not bitter enough to give up on the start of the season.

[millennium]

I thought this season was terrible.   From the unforgivable hijacking of Batman's storyline to the dumbing-down of Felicity (going from "Bitch with WiFi" to Oliver's own personal, hyper-emotional cheerleader), from the killing of Sara to Laurel's overnight transformation into a mixed martial arts expert, from the Arrow-less episodes to the terribly uninteresting flashbacks.    All of it.   And more.  Even Ra's voice annoyed me (in the final episode, while Ra's was schooling Oliver on the meaning of dreams, all I could think was "good grief, can you imagine having to share a seat with that guy for a nine-hour flight?"

 

My only consolation was my (naive) belief that the audience would raise hell over the sharp decline in quality between Seasons 1 and 2 and Season 3.    And they did, at least until the season finale.   Based on what I have read in the forums here, most viewers now seem placated and are all "water under the bridge" because "Aww, Oliver is happy."  Or because Felicity was a cutie-pie in Ray's outfit.   Or whatever.

 

It blows my mind that the terrible writers of this show tried to vindicate themselves by a few cheap tugs at heartstrings -- and evidently it worked.   If Guggenheim and friends were to read the episode thread for the finale, those hacks would come away feeling "job well done."

 

My concern is, if fandom's demands are so low --  if the viewers can be mollified with warm fuzzies -- what reason is there for the writing team to improve its game?   Negative reviews would have left the writers little choice but to quickly re-examine the show's tone, character development and plot direction.  But now?  Given the widespread "but who cares about anything else because Ollie's happy" sentiment, it probably sends the message that the writers should churn out more of the same tripe.

 

IMHO, Felicity Smoak is a huge liability for this show.   Arguably, Felicity's character has become more popular than the Arrow himself.   Personally I don't get it but obviously Felicity has a large and devoted following.   More of the discussions here seem to be about Felicity than Oliver/Arrow.   The show isn't called "Olicity" but maybe it should be.   The first two seasons delivered an action/adventure show about a conflicted young hero named the Arrow and his struggle to take back his city.    That's what I expected to see in season three.   Instead, it appears the writers decided to capitalize on Felicity's popularity.   Oliver Queen's city has been downgraded to an afterthought and the conflicts we see now are more on the scale of Dawson's Creek.

 

The show I really enjoyed for two seasons has become ... something else.   And now, given the broad approval of that mediocre, pandering finale, I don't see it ever getting back to basics.

[ruby24]

And see, I like Felicity a lot, but I don't need her to be in love with Oliver. He drags everyone down, and she was so much better on The Flash this year whenever she showed up there. I think she's great at comedy, but I don't like it when she's weepy and lovelorn. I didn't dislike her with Ray either, I thought they had pretty good chemistry- again, especially when the two of them showed up on The Flash.

 

I don't think I'm ever going to actively be into Oliver with anyone, because I just have never seen SA have chemistry with a single actress he's ever been paired with. I think it's him, he's just not a good romantic lead.

[millennium]

And see, I like Felicity a lot, but I don't need her to be in love with Oliver. He drags everyone down, and she was so much better on The Flash this year whenever she showed up there. I think she's great at comedy, but I don't like it when she's weepy and lovelorn. I didn't dislike her with Ray either, I thought they had pretty good chemistry- again, especially when the two of them showed up on The Flash.

 

I don't think I'm ever going to actively be into Oliver with anyone, because I just have never seen SA have chemistry with a single actress he's ever been paired with. I think it's him, he's just not a good romantic lead.

 

I liked Felicity best when she was independent of Oliver and Ray.    While she had many amusing moments on the Flash, the one where she showed up in Central City with Ray in tow was the low point for the character.   Gushing about her new boyfriend and chatting up Ray's sexual ability.   No thank you.

 

I'm not sure superheros should be romantic leads.   Or need to be.  It never worked out for Batman unless he hooked up with Catwoman or Talia, both of whom were villains.   And those were always one-nighters anyway.   The hero is, ultimately, married to his crusade.    Look at the Winchester brothers.  Same thing.   I've been watching Supernatural for eight years or more.   I have no desire to see Sam or Dean fall in love.   Turning an action show into a shipping show -- in this case, Arrow into Cupid's Arrow -- just seems to me like a sure way to kill a good thing. 

Edited May 15, 2015 by millennium

[ruby24]

I think it depends on the tone. A dark, mopey hero is probably never going to be good as part of a couple, it'll just be angsty and melodramatic. A lighter, funnier show might be able to do it right, if it allows its leads to be happy together and actually work as a team. It's hard for me to see Oliver like that with anyone because he's always been so "woe is me."

 

In contrast I could see it working on a show like The Flash (the triangle over there has been a total waste of time and if they had just made Iris part of the team from the start I guarantee it would have worked better). And then there was Lois & Clark back in the day, which was always a pretty lighthearted romp, but that allowed the two leads to actually be a couple for much of the series, and they worked great together too.

 

I know they said they were going to lighten up next year, but it's really hard to imagine them keeping Oliver and Felicity together for any significant length of time- and even if they did, those two I just can't see as a sparkling back and forth kind of duo. Oliver's just too morose.

[AES13]

I'm not sure superheros should be romantic leads.   Or need to be.  It never worked out for Batman unless he hooked up with Catwoman or Talia, both of whom were villains.   And those were always one-nighters anyway.   The hero is, ultimately, married to his crusade.    Look at the Winchester brothers.  Same thing.   I've been watching Supernatural for eight years or more.   I have no desire to see Sam or Dean fall in love.   Turning an action show into a shipping show -- in this case, Arrow into Cupid's Arrow -- just seems to me like a sure way to kill a good thing. 

 

I need relationships, all types of relationships, to enjoy a show.  Non-stop action would be a pretty empty experience for me.  I still watch Supernatural but it's despite the total lack of relationships on the show, not because of it.  I feel like the show became this never ending hamster wheel when they stopped having the characters grow and to me, that is what makes people grow, their relationship to other people, romantic or otherwise.

 

I enjoyed Arrow's finale primarily because I was relieved it wasn't as terrible as the rest of the season and it was good enough that I will definitely be watching at least the beginning of season 4.  Considering that the vast majority of reviews I've read singled out how much better the finale was than the rest of the season (i.e. the season was bad), I have hope that despite the ratings, the writers will recognize that they just can't coast along with the occasional intro of a canon hero or villain to make things interesting. 

 

I've been apathetic pretty much since TSOOFS (I can't even get interested in reading fanfic any more!), so for me, either it improves quickly or I will move on.  There is a plethora of genre shows on or coming next season so I don't feel like I'll be missing out.

Edited May 15, 2015 by AES13

[millennium]

I need relationships, all types of relationships, to enjoy a show.  Non-stop action would be a pretty empty experience for me. 

 

I have no qualms with Oliver having a female partner, masked or not, who works with him to find resolution to each week's challenges.   I loved the X-Files and in my opinion that show set the standard for how a male and female character can work together and develop a loyal, trusting bond without it becoming romantic (at least not until much, much later).   I realize this is a personal preference, but I find trust and friendship a stronger, more credible and durable bond than romance.

 

But I'm SOL because the CW is targeting this show at the same demographic who's on Cloud Nine because Oliver and Felicity drove off into the sunset together.

[Starfish35]

I don't think I'm ever going to actively be into Oliver with anyone, because I just have never seen SA have chemistry with a single actress he's ever been paired with. I think it's him, he's just not a good romantic lead.

I think that's a mileage varies thing. I think he's had great chemistry with every actress except for Katie Cassidy.

While she had many amusing moments on the Flash, the one where she showed up in Central City with Ray in tow was the low point for the character. Gushing about her new boyfriend and chatting up Ray's sexual ability. No thank you.

Agreed. I probably cringed through 3/4ths of her scenes during that episode.

I don't think Olicity is the problem with the show, in and of itself. (This is the viewpoint of a non-Olicity shipper. A shipper might say something different.) I think Olicity was only one of several problems with the show this season, and the main problem came about by trying to force them into the tortured angsty "star crossed" model for relationships that the writers seem so fond of. Part of the appeal of Olicity was that they were not tortured and angsty. But when the show decided to switch gears from Lauriver to Olicity, they apparently decided that if Olicity was going to be the official couple, they needed to up the drama around them. Cue sudden "starcrossed" angst and immediate love triangle dropped on our heads.

However, the bigger problem for me has nothing to do with Olicity but with all the tortured machinations throughout to get Oliver to the place where he would agree to become Ra's. Killing off Sara, refusing to turn Malcolm over to Ra's, working with Malcolm, the stupid "prophecy"..... I remember being so frustrated last season with the lack of sense making in the Mirakuru arc/Slade revenge arc. But that was nothing compared to this season. The biggest problem with this season for me is that, bottom line, for most of it to happen it required Oliver to be an idiot.

There was also the drag of Laurel's whole ascent to Black Canary, which never made sense. We had two seasons of her being angry - did we need a third one? Did we need yet another superhero propelled into the mask by the death of a loved one? Is that the only superhero origin story they know how to write? (They even did it with Ray.) Sara dies, and Laurel lies to her father about it through 2/3rds of the season, because they needed Quentin to have a reason to go after Oliver at the end of the season. Laurel flails around through most of the season, eventually becoming BC, but never doing anything subtantial whatsoever to get justice for Sara, other than one badly botched attempt on his life before Nyssa stepped in.

All of it together...it's just exhausting. And I know I keep using that word but I don't know what else to say. The writers have specific plot points they want to reach, and so the characters are made to act in ways that don't make sense, in order for those points to happen. I'm all for action and an intriguing story. But the characters' motivations and behavior needs to make sense to me, and so often this season it didn't.

I don't know. Other people have said this far more eloquently than I could. I just don't think it's fair to blame Olicity for all the problems of the season, when as far as I was concerned it went a whole lot deeper than that. To me, the problems with Olicity are a symptom, not a cause.

But as always, your mileage may vary.

ETA: this quote is from the MG interview just posted in the Behind the Mask thread.

I think Oliver makes a lot of bad choices. Oftentimes I joke in the writers’ room that Oliver’s bad choices are part of the currency of the show.

On his tumblr MG said once that they've gotten quite a bit of mileage out of Oliver having his head up his ass.

It's just that kind of thinking that is driving me away from the show. I don't want or expect perfect heroes, but when writers make their characters continually make bad choices in order to drive the story, well. Eventually I just get tired of watching that. And I guess that's where I'm at now.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Starfish35

[nksarmi]

I know they said they were going to lighten up next year, but it's really hard to imagine them keeping Oliver and Felicity together for any significant length of time- and even if they did, those two I just can't see as a sparkling back and forth kind of duo. Oliver's just too morose.

 

I disagree.  I honestly believe that if they a) keep Oliver "too morose" and b) break up Oliver and Felicity any time soon - people will just stop watching in huge droves.  I know not everyone cares about "olicity" but there is such as thing as putting yourself in a narrative corner and they have definitely done that with Oliver and Felicity as far as I'm concerned. 

 

At the end of season two, I would not have cared if they didn't pair Oliver and Felicity up ever.  Now? I'd probably stop watching if they broke up.  It's not because I ship them more now -  actually, I probably liked them more before.  But now if they broke up and kept working together it would mean nothing but pain AND I would never be able to believe they could work together.  I had a hard enough time with it THIS season and they weren't an official couple (which I feel they now are regardless of his NP marriage).

 

And rather or not they stay together, if Oliver doesn't lighten up - I'm out.  This season was too much.  I need a light-hearted, fun Oliver who gets to be happy or I'll just stick to Flash and LoT.

[icandigit]

I'm bitter because I like Olicity and I'm being blamed for ruining the show. They couldn't be pandering to me. I didn't ask for anything they put on my screen. All I wanted was a decent hero/villians storyline with a little Olicity on the side slowly growing to something more. What I got was inorganic angst and crappy storytelling.

 

Shows have down seasons, I get that. But, I'm bitter because of all the shoehorning of characters that was going on. That's different than trying a idea you thought would work but didn't. I need to write a thank you letter to marvel for giving daredevil to replace this crapfest.

[dtissagirl]

I'm bitter because I like Olicity and I'm being blamed for ruining the show. They couldn't be pandering to me. I didn't ask for anything they put on my screen. All I wanted was a decent hero/villians storyline with a little Olicity on the side slowly growing to something more. What I got was inorganic angst and crappy storytelling.

This, a billion times, forever and ever repeated ad infinitum.

[MostlyC]

I've had a stressful morning.  You guys have made it less bitter because you're pretty awesome in here.  Thank you.

[catahoulamama]

This, a billion times, forever and ever repeated ad infinitum.

I'd be glad for them to just make Olicity a fact of life on Arrow, like Diggle & Lyla.  We don't get Diggle family angst.  Leave them together and just move the hell on with telling Oliver's story.  I don't need or want them canoodling everywhere in every episode, or unable to do anything without pausing for "heart eyes" moments. And, although I'll admit that I'm interested to see whether the "spark" dies down now that the sexual tension between Olicity has been broken, primarily I'm here for Oliver/Arrow's story.  He got his head out of his ass and found a good woman to share it with, now on with the show.  Do I think we'll be lucky enough to get this? Nope...they cannot resist returning to Angst City on this show.

[dtissagirl]

No one will ever convince me that Oliver/Felicity ruined this season. What ruined this season imo was contorting the characters into backwards pretzels -- especially Felicity -- to keep them apart from 301 to 320. It felt artificial and exausting. And they did that on top of the GRIMDARK decision to base the big moments of the season on deaths as plot points/motivators-- Sara's, Oliver's, Thea's.

Oliver/Felicity should have been used as a balm to the angst, light moments in the dark. That was what failed this season. Forever bitter.

[bUT GLAD IT'S OVER, JFC.]

[NumberCruncher]

No one will ever convince me that Oliver/Felicity ruined this season. What ruined this season imo was contorting the characters into backwards pretzels -- especially Felicity -- to keep them apart from 301 to 320. It felt artificial and exausting. And they did that on top of the GRIMDARK decision to base the big moments of the season on deaths as plot points/motivators-- Sara's, Oliver's, Thea's.

Oliver/Felicity should have been used as a balm to the angst, light moments in the dark. That was what failed this season. Forever bitter.

[bUT GLAD IT'S OVER, JFC.]

Yep. The Olicity scenes in S1 & S2 were the few bright, hopeful parts that lightened show. Making them even more angsty than the rest of the show was a huge mistake. That's on the EPs not the shipper audience. I also get irritated when I see comments here criticizing the shippers for liking the finale and then concluding that it somehow saved the season for them...no, it didn't. A lot of them were just grateful that Oliver wasn't being a mopey bastard and Felicity wasn't crying about it like they had acted the rest of season. Very few shippers I've seen have much love for S3 because the showrunners bungled Olicity so badly. Blaming them is utter nonsense. Edited May 16, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[KirkB]

Oliver's relationship with Felicity can't ever be like Diggle's with Lyla. Its not really even a fair comparison. Oliver is the star of the show and anything he does is front and center. Diggle is not. More to the point, Felicity is on screen most of the time, while Lyla is not. You're going to see more of Oliver/Felicity because they're on the comms and in the lair and there's going to be flirting and any angst will be magnified because it's Oliver's main emotion. 

 

I've gone on record here as saying while I've nothing against Oliver/Felicity, or any other romantic pairing, it's not the main reason I watch shows like this or this show in particular. If the show turned into some kind of romantic comedy instead of the action/adventure it started as I would probably stop watching because it's not what I tuned in for. That said, I don't think Oliver/Felicity has ruined the show. Could it? Yes, as I said above, if they changed the nature of the show, but as much as the CW likes their hot lead romances I don't see that happening. I don't even see how anyone could say Oliver/Felicity ruined this season, considering they really only had three moments the entire time (the aborted date, sex in Nanda Parbat and the finale), they were apart the rest of the time, mad at one another for various reasons, Felicity dated someone else, Oliver was kind of dead and technically got married. If anything ruined this season, or least lowered the quality of the series as a whole. it was starting off with the violent, needless death of a popular character, for the sake of empowering a less popular character (Laurel) and the oblique story line of another (Malcolm), as well as the introduction of a group least deserving of their reputation (the LoA) and the effective character--and eventually literal--assassination of one of DC's biggest villains, Ra's al Ghul.

 

Even if you absolutely hate the whole idea of Oliver/Felicity, IMO it was the least objectionable thing about this last season.

Edited May 16, 2015 by KirkB

[Chaser]

S3 had a Villain in name only. They had a reputation, but no substance. It was poorly thought and poorly executed. There never felt like this looming threat it just felt dumb.

 

Team Arrow was not the Team Arrow of S1 & S2. Felicity was a bright spot, who you looked at for levity in a bad situations. This season you didn't know what you would get in any given episode. Half the time she just propped for the other characters, being reactive instead proactive. Old Oliver had learned to trust his Team, find another way and not to give up when everything was against him. This season he went at everything alone, he keep things from his Team, was just going to die instead of finding an alternative or asking for help. Diggle was physically sidelined just to make room for another mask. 

 

I didn't want Oliver and Felicity to get together this season. But I didn't realize the EPs would completely ignore who they are to keep them apart. 

 

SA said he knew the board strokes of the season at last years up fronts. I bet those board strokes sounded amazing.

[tennisgurl]

The idea that Oliver/Felicity ruined this season is just ridiculous, both from a fan perspective, and an objective writing perspective. The problem was they didn't use them right. The whole reason people loved Olicity was because it was the lighter, happier ship, as compared to the never ending angst of the Laurel/Oliver ship. But this season, they seemed to decide they could only write angst, so when Olicity became the OTP, they just moved all their angst to Olicity. Which did work some of the time, but mostly it just hurt what people loved about the ship in the first place. People still love the ship, including me, but it became a scapegoat to a lot of people who were looking for reasons this season was such a disappointment.

 

The real problems were, to me, the lack of focus on Team Arrow, the focus on new and supporting characters who never really clicked, the nonsensical motivations, the overly brooding tone (basically, read Alan Sepinwall`s review), and other issues of pacing, and major plot holes. This show always had plot holes, but I could overlook them because the themes, fights, and characters were so well done. When those are gone, your just left with plot holes. And no Olicity.   

[catahoulamama]

Oliver's relationship with Felicity can't ever be like Diggle's with Lyla. Its not really even a fair comparison. Oliver is the star of the show and anything he does is front and center. Diggle is not. More to the point, Felicity is on screen most of the time, while Lyla is not. You're going to see more of Oliver/Felicity because they're on the comms and in the lair and there's going to be flirting and any angst will be magnified because it's Oliver's main emotion. 

 

 My point was, while I am an Olicity fan, I don't want their "love story" to be the "A" story now that they're together.  I'd much prefer that we see more of them working together with "romantic" moments here and there and they just go home together at the end of the day or night. I'm not here for RomCom Arrow, I guess is my poorly made point. LOL

[Chaser]

Oliver's relationship with Felicity can't ever be like Diggle's with Lyla. Its not really even a fair comparison. Oliver is the star of the show and anything he does is front and center. Diggle is not. More to the point, Felicity is on screen most of the time, while Lyla is not. You're going to see more of Oliver/Felicity because they're on the comms and in the lair and there's going to be flirting and any angst will be magnified because it's Oliver's main emotion. 

 

I've gone on record here as saying while I've nothing against Oliver/Felicity, or any other romantic pairing, it's not the main reason I watch shows like this or this show in particular. If the show turned into some kind of romantic comedy instead of the action/adventure it started as I would probably stop watching because it's not what I tuned in for. That said, I don't think Oliver/Felicity has ruined the show. Could it? Yes, as I said above, if they changed the nature of the show, but as much as the CW likes their hot lead romances I don't see that happening. I don't even see how anyone could say Oliver/Felicity ruined this season, considering they really only had three moments the entire time (the aborted date, sex in Nanda Parbat and the finale), they were apart the rest of the time, mad at one another for various reasons, Felicity dated someone else, Oliver was kind of dead and technically got married. If anything ruined this season, or least lowered the quality of the series as a whole. it was starting off with the violent, needless death of a popular character, for the sake of empowering a less popular character (Laurel) and the oblique story line of another (Malcolm), as well as the introduction of a group least deserving of their reputation (the LoA) and the effective character--and eventually literal--assassination of one of DC's biggest villains, Ra's al Ghul.

 

Even if you absolutely hate the whole idea of Oliver/Felicity, IMO it was the least objectionable thing about this last season.

Batman and The Joker.  Superman and Lex Luthor. If you fail at the villain, you have already lost half the battle. Because nothing that stems from that conflict can hold up.

[tennisgurl]

Actually, looking back on the season, my least favorite things (I don't mean worst things, from a writing perspective, I mean things that I really hated, as a fan) were, the pointless death of Sara (why did Malcolm even kill her again? Her death was basically pointless, and just deprived us of a year of Sara, and spent more time on Laurel at her most dull and awful), the LoA (built up so much, then turned out to be a bunch of pansies who can be beaten up just as fast as the mooks in Austin Powers, all being lead by some melodramatic, boring dude with hipster facial hair) and the destruction of Quentin and his character development (they messed up one of my favorite characters, forced him to become some kind of anti-arrow fanatic, and undid all the development he`s had, all for the sake of pointless drama, and a stupid plot). 

 

There were other things I hated about this season, but those were the big three, that, as a fan, were the least forgivable. At least, until I think of more...

[Chaser]

My top three:

 

Ra's/Malcolm - One leads to another in my opinion. Plot holes and logic fails galore. 

 

Ray Palmer/Black Canary - Too many origin stories. These weren't sub plots but entirely different shows with the supporting characters playing AU versions of themselves. I didn't add Speedy into this because her transition still felt apart of Arrow.

 

Sara's Death - It doesn't make sense. At all.

[calliope1975]

My strongest feeling after the finale was relief that this season was finally over even with Olicity riding off together - not like that. That's maybe not what the Show was aiming for. As the season progressed, every Wednesday, I would brace myself and think 'how bad will it be tonight?' (Why I continue to watch and put myself through that is something I should take up with a therapist.)

 

Starting the season with Sara's death was a horrible note, and it all went downhill from there. I can see that they thought this death would catalyze the season and everyone's actions, but they misjudged their writing abilities. This doesn't surprise me at all after reading MG's Tumblr responses. I don't get much of a sense that he's very reflective or accepts criticism well. (I don't know the guy, though, so that could be an incorrect impression.)

 

I also don't think they had any plan to bring Sara back. I think their grand plan for a Ray Palmer/Atom spin-off crashed and burned, and they had to scramble with revisions. Luckily for them, I think LoT will work much better than their original plan. 

Edited May 16, 2015 by calliope1975

[millennium]

What better demonstration of the degree to which Olicity is driving this show than the simple fact that you can't even bitch about Olicity in the BITTERNESS thread without being told you're wrong.

[apinknightmare]

Or maybe you're just on a board with other people with differing opinions and they're expressing theirs like you expressed yours? There are other sites where you could post that opinion to thunderous applause and absolutely no argument. This just isn't one of them.

Edited May 16, 2015 by apinknightmare

[millennium]

Perhaps.   It doesn't much matter anymore.   The damage is done.   They should change the name of the show to "The Many Loves of Felicity Smoak" and be done with it.   

[Betweenthisandthat]

What better demonstration of the degree to which Olicity is driving this show than the simple fact that you can't even bitch about Olicity in the BITTERNESS thread without being told you're wrong.

 

Haha.  It's interesting.

 

Oliver and Felicity could work for me.  I don't really care about them getting together.  I've tried to care.  It hasn't happened.  That doesn't mean there isn't a way for them to be pleasant or a nice subplot that I accept but have no investment in.  I'm not against the fact that Oliver and Felicity exist but the moments they've shared have felt rushed and convoluted with a few exceptions.  I didn't think they'd go on a date at the beginning of the season.  Totally didn't see them being ready for that.  Wasn't quite convinced at the end of season 2 that they both had romantic feelings for each other.  I saw that from Felicity but Oliver was always with someone else so I wasn't sure how we got to where they were at the beginning of the season.  Then it played out like some Teen soap, very cliched and boring: He wants her but can't be with her, she wants him but wants him to fight for her.  Didn't help that the characterization for Oliver was sloppy and also pretty boring.  It's sad because I was with Oliver in the first season, rooting for him to be happy and now I don't care.  I wish I could get myself to care again.

 

At least with Ray there wasn't the same drama, but that wasn't must watch TV either.  I agree that if they'd stayed light with each other, it would have been better.  Then you could let Felicity have a storyline that wasn't about whether or not she should be with Oliver but something else much more interesting.  Something about her, not who she was going to be with and how they felt about her.  Making Oliver and Felicity part of this will they? and won't they? back and forth wasn't entertaining.  It was draining.  So Olicity as they were written did hurt the show. 

 

I like Laurel and don't get much of the hate against the character, but I didn't like the lying to Quentin storyline.  It hurt a father and daughter relationship I began to enjoy.  I'm glad that she's the BC, and but I didn't like the way she got there, and didn't like what it turned Quentin into.  Sara's death made no sense and neither did the aftermath.  Sara could live and passed the title to Laurel, train her or still have Nyssa do it.  Having Oliver hesitate to accept her didn't make him look good either.  While she had some great scenes I don't think she'll ever get the writing I think this character deserves.

 

Sara's death also did nothing good for Thea or her agency.  It was a travesty.  I was interested in Malcolm and Thea, and it was mostly a disappointment, like every other story I looked forward to.  I cannot stand Malcolm, and hate the fact that Thea has forgotten that she actually had a father who loved her and raised her.  I cannot stomach that Nyssa kneeled to Malcolm, stripping her of her power.  I also miss Thea's scenes with Moira and her scenes with Walter.  I miss Moira and Walter in general.  Where is he?

 

The Ra's storyline was another disappointment and it did a lot of damage to Oliver as did his uneasy alliance with Malcolm.  

 

Wasn't a fan of what became of Oliver and Diggle's friendship either.  Season 1 Oliver and Diggle were amazing, and I would like that back. More Lyla would help too.

 

Roy's gone and I still don't think I know as much about it as I should have.  I missed his scenes with Sin.

 

Olicity is one of many problems for me.  Not the only one but it was one of many things that brought this season down but so much has been made about these two in the show and the media that the weakness of their writing this season stands out the most.  There were good moments this season but most of the big storylines were disappointments.  Characters I liked were killed off or disappeared.  Ones I didn't stayed alive too long.  Characters I was excited for got plots that failed them.  

 

I wish I had hope for season 4.  I might check out the first episode, but I already feel like I've wasted enough time this season on Arrow and should know better than to think that the writers and I are on the same wavelength and the storylines were so weak this season that I don't get how they'd magically improve.  

 

ETA: I edited this more than I thought I would.  I kept thinking of stories I was bitter about and adding them to this post and might have listed all of the ones from this season.  No wonder I've been such a pissed fan this season, ahaha!  

Edited May 16, 2015 by Betweenthisandthat

[fantique]

@millennium, maybe all it means is that it's driving the fandom/media response? But saying that it's driving the show is actually not accurate so of course people will say something to disagree. That's an objective statement to make.

Fact (as I understand it): a dynamic driving a show means that most of the plot is a direct effect of said dynamic or the plot/characters are twisted to make it happen or prolong its conclusion.

Did Sara's death only affect Olicity? No, the main effect was on Laurel becoming BC and started the lamest evil plan ever.

Did Anything in episodes 2-9 occur as a result of Olicity? Not that I recall, after 301 it was a poor murder mystery that culminated in Merlyn moustache twirling.

Second half of the season was about the conflict between the team members caused by what? Oliver's harebrained decisions that were clearly only there to bring the LOA stuff to the foreground and have Ra's and Merlyn do their villain stuff even though their plans made no sense.

None of those messes are because of Olicity and the relationship certainly didn't benefit from it. There are like 5 episodes where Olicity was a thing that was actively part of the plot and four of them were while Oliver was in NP. Actually, I am pretty sure they had less scenes together getting along than last season. I guess some could argue that the bad plotting was to keep them from getting together, but actually, that was what Ray was for. Funnily, the people blaming Olicity for the fail don't mention that Raylicity had as many moments and were actively dating for a while but no, Oliver being stupid and Ra's lame plan was totally about Olicity. If this season was Olicity's fault, it would have benefitted or happened only thanks to the events, instead what we had is that it didn't happen because of the plot of this season so yeah, even if I am iffy about the pairing, I really can't agree this mess was its fault. 

Keep in mind, I'm a Felicity fan so any story that screws her over makes me mad. She got screwed over a lot this season, some of it was Olicity but a lot of it was them pimping her out to prop other characters. Sometimes, it literally felt like they would write lines for her and then give them to other characters. I just don't find it fair that people are blaming her for this season when for most of it, she wasn't even part of the A-plot except for tech support and cheerleader or to emotionally manipulate the audience (which was unsuccessful because the drama was so stupid nobody took it seriously and her constant grief was annoying instead). I get not liking her, but not seeing how much the writers used her to her detriment and act like she was being propped up is just so strange to me that maybe I am just watching a different show. But hey, different folks.

Edited May 17, 2015 by fantique

[nksarmi]

Perhaps.   It doesn't much matter anymore.   The damage is done.   They should change the name of the show to "The Many Loves of Felicity Smoak" and be done with it.   

When I made my post, I was simply pointing out how I feel the writers are in a corner with Oliver and Felicity.  They could write her off the show, but baring that I simple could not suspend my disbelief enough to accept that they could break up and continue to work together.  I feel bad for anyone who dislikes Felicity because I just don't think the writers have left themselves many options after this season (unless they leverage amnesia or something like that).

[millennium]

@millennium, maybe all it means is that it's driving the fandom/media response? But saying that it's driving the show is actually not accurate so of course people will say something to disagree. That's an objective statement to make.

Fact (as I understand it): a dynamic driving a show means that most of the plot is a direct effect of said dynamic or the plot/characters are twisted to make it happen or prolong its conclusion.

Did Sara's death only affect Olicity? No, the main effect was on Laurel becoming BC and started the lamest evil plan ever.

Did Anything in episodes 2-9 occur as a result of Olicity? Not that I recall, after 301 it was a poor murder mystery that culminated in Merlyn moustache twirling.

Second half of the season was about the conflict between the team members caused by what? Oliver's harebrained decisions that were clearly only there to bring the LOA stuff to the foreground and have Ra's and Merlyn do their villain stuff even though their plans made no sense.

None of those messes are because of Olicity and the relationship certainly didn't benefit from it. There are like 5 episodes where Olicity was a thing that was actively part of the plot and four of them were while Oliver was in NP. Actually, I am pretty sure they had less scenes together getting along than last season. I guess some could argue that the bad plotting was to keep them together, but actually, that was what Ray was for. Funnily, the people blaming Olicity for the fail don't mention that Raylicity had as many moments and were actively dating for a while but no, Oliver being stupid and Ra's lame plan was totally about Olicity. If this season was Olicity's fault, it would have benefitted or happened only thanks to the events, instead what we had is that it didn't happen because of the plot of this season so yeah, even if I am iffy about the pairing, I really can't agree this mess was its fault. Keep in mind, I'm a Felicity fan so any story that screws her over makes me mad. She got screwed over a lot this season, some of it was Olicity but a lot of it was them pimping her out to prop other characters. Sometimes, it literally felt like they would write lines for her and then give them to other characters. I just don't find it fair that people are blaming her for this season when for most of it, she wasn't even part of the A-plot except for tech support and cheerleader or to emotionally manipulate the audience (which was unsuccessful because the drama was so stupid nobody took it seriously and her constant grief was annoying instead). I get not liking her, but not seeing how much the writers used her to her detriment and act like she was being propped up is just so strange to me that maybe I am just watching a different show. But hey, different folks.

 

 

I take your points, and I thank you for taking the time to explain them.  You are right, there is a difference between fandom and the show, but I believe the former has influenced the latter.   I think the clamor for Olicity was directly related to some of the developments we saw on the show this season, and thus drove the show.   In the attempt to establish a credible relationship between Oliver and Felicity, the writers had to endow Felicity with some quality that would make her vital to Oliver/Arrow.   To do this, they deliberately sent Oliver down wrong paths, had him make bad choices, etc., so that Felicity could be there to set him straight with her many pep talks, i.e.,  "Don't fight to die, fight to live" (hurl).  In doing that, they propped up Felicity at the expense of the show's titular character.    I don't want a hero who makes bad choices and repeatedly has to be set straight by his girlfriend or his friends.  Occasionally, sure, okay, we all falter.   But this season, it was one scene after another where Felicity was the voice of reason while Oliver was acting like a loose cannon.   It undermined Oliver's credibility as a hero.   After awhile it got tiresome.   "Crashing the plane?  That was your big plan?" (or whatever it was Felicity said to him).   It made Oliver look like an idiot.   Again.  I would have preferred a plot where Team Arrow doubts Oliver but in the end he is proven 100% correct.   But instead, to reinforce Felicity's value to Oliver, and to show the audience why he might love her, the writers have made Felicity the wise one.    She knows better than Oliver.   I'm not sure I explained it very well, but that's how I see Olicity influencing the direction of the show.

[NumberCruncher]

And yet, MG has insisted many times that they don't write the storylines to the whims and preferences of the audience. In fact, I vividly recall that he was the one who gleefully proclaimed very early in the season how much he and the writers love writing Oliver having his head up his ass and how much mileage that has given them. Is that somehow Olicity/Felicity's fault too? Seems to me that in their quest to beat down Oliver, the writers dragged Felicity down with him because she happened to be whom they chose as his love interest. I think people are mistaking which is the cause and which is the effect here.

Edited May 17, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[MostlyC]

Lovely people!

 

Let's agree to disagree and move on.

[wonderwall]

I think saying Olicity and Felicity are the root of all of season 3s issues is a lazy argument and a shallow evaluation of the season... Not trying to be rude here, just putting in my two cents that romance wasn't a defining characteristic this season because none of Oliver's choices, none of his motivations had to do with Felicity or his love for her. The only choice he made with Felicity in mind was stepping away from her in episode 1, spending the night with her in episode 20, and going on a vacation with her in episode 23. All of Oliver's motivations this season had to do with saving Thea and Starling. I wouldn't characterize this as romance taking over the show. I'd actually argue that Oliver's bond with Thea has taken precedence this season.

 

The poor plotting of Olicity/Felicity this season amongst other issues like Ra's, Ray, Laurel, Malcolm, etc. are the symptoms of the problem and not the root of the issue which is the fact that this was a poorly thought out season which suffered from lazy/bad writing and poor structure. 

 

This season wasn't poor because the show decided to apparently 'pander to the shippers', it was poor because the writers prioritized shock value, nonsensical plot, and a love triangle that literally was of no use whatsoever over decent storytelling. This is where the season failed to deliver. Now, can the writers bounce back? Absolutely considering these writers were the ones who wrote seasons 1 & 2, but it would require them to not be lazy. 

 

To say Olicity ruined the season implies that it was one of the very few things that went wrong this season when almost everything was just terrible. If Olicity was the only aspect of the show that failed, I can understand this argument, but it wasn't. There were A LOT of issues with this season and I'm sure they've been mentioned ad nauseum in this thread.

 

And I'm not even going to touch the whole 'pander to the shippers' thing considering the amount of times the EPs have shut that notion down. And I hope to god I never use the phrase 'fan pandering' because it's just another way of saying 'the show isn't going my way and now I'm bitter so I'm going to blame the fans who talk about what they love'... 

 

ETA: Sorry @mostlyC, I didn't read your post before I posted! Hope my comment was okay

Edited May 17, 2015 by wonderwall

[Genki]

I take your points, and I thank you for taking the time to explain them.  You are right, there is a difference between fandom and the show, but I believe the former has influenced the latter.   I think the clamor for Olicity was directly related to some of the developments we saw on the show this season, and thus drove the show.   In the attempt to establish a credible relationship between Oliver and Felicity, the writers had to endow Felicity with some quality that would make her vital to Oliver/Arrow.   To do this, they deliberately sent Oliver down wrong paths, had him make bad choices, etc., so that Felicity could be there to set him straight with her many pep talks, i.e.,  "Don't fight to die, fight to live" (hurl).  In doing that, they propped up Felicity at the expense of the show's titular character.    I don't want a hero who makes bad choices and repeatedly has to be set straight by his girlfriend or his friends.  Occasionally, sure, okay, we all falter.   But this season, it was one scene after another where Felicity was the voice of reason while Oliver was acting like a loose cannon.   It undermined Oliver's credibility as a hero.   After awhile it got tiresome.   "Crashing the plane?  That was your big plan?" (or whatever it was Felicity said to him).   It made Oliver look like an idiot.   Again.  I would have preferred a plot where Team Arrow doubts Oliver but in the end he is proven 100% correct.   But instead, to reinforce Felicity's value to Oliver, and to show the audience why he might love her, the writers have made Felicity the wise one.    She knows better than Oliver.   I'm not sure I explained it very well, but that's how I see Olicity influencing the direction of the show.

 

I can understand your bitterness in this regard even if I don't 100% agree with it.

 

I feel that Oliver's identity crisis was always plotted out and they were always going to tie it to a Love Interest, at this stage in the series.

 

And I agree it is frustrating to see Oliver's Suicidal tendencies come out yet again, this was like the 4th or 5th time. I think the writer were going for character growth, and I think the lesson they wanted Oliver to learn is that his death does matter to others and it isn't OK to sacrifice himself all the time and to not do everything alone. And maybe metaphorically finally come home form the Island.

 

But I don't think they made Oliver stupid to allow Felicity to give him the big motivational speech, I feel like they made Oliver stupid to keep Malcolm in the show (as well as other reasons which I won't detail here).

 

On paper it doesn't sound like a bad Idea to have Malcolm scheming this season to free himself from the LOA and Ra's wrath and if Malcolm become the Next Ra's with all the machinations going on, great plot twist. 

 

However, in order for this to happen, as it play out this season, they needed Oliver to do the following.

 

- Not try to put Malcolm in a cell in Lian Yu, he basically accepted Malcolm saying "No prison can hold me" and never even tried to apprehend him.

 

- Oliver had to believe Malcolm's statement that he didn't kill Sara. Without proof and with everyone else disagreeing with him andit ended with Oliver being ultimately proved wrong in the worst way possible.

 

- He had repeatedly stated that he believed Malcolm loved Thea, as reason to work with him (even trust him at times) even though it was on-screen that Malcolm mind-raped Thea, had her murder her family friend and he was threatening to to set her up to take the fall for it with the Ra's & League. (Don't even get me started on why it was Sara that had to die since this this brings out a whole different load of bitterness).

 

- He has to go "rescue" Malcolm from the League when it cleared the debt for Sara's death and eliminated the threat against Thea and got Malcolm out of their lives. To save Thea's SOUL. (This I can kind-of wave away but I wish it was written better. If they had the League abduct him so Ra's could explain his recruitment offer and Oliver and Malcolm teamed up to escape  it would have been better story-wise and character-wise. For me)

 

This for me made Oliver seem idiotic in S3. I was still on his side, but holy hell was he frustrating.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Genki

[AyChihuahua]

For me, the biggest problem with the season and the root of its absolute, utter, total terribleness is how unbearably stupid every single storyline and plot "twist" was.  Because they were so unbelievably stupid, they required every character to become unbelievably stupid and ruined all of them except, for me, Roy.  Even Thea, who ended the season fine, was horrible in the beginning when she was defending her mass murderer father.  I mean, when ROY HARPER is your smartest character, take A HARD LOOK AT YOUR STORY CHOICES.  We are talking Three's Company levels of idiocy, here.  

 

Oh, and for me the stupid was the intended outcome, because they think ripping off Batman is SO KEWL and they wanted to spin off Ray and set up Laurel as BC, and they couldn't or didn't care to figure out any intelligent way to get there.  Oliver's stupidity (along with, for me, basically every other character's stupidity and, for me, a largely ruined Oliver/Felicity relationship) was simply in service of those utterly puerile story choices.  If they'd portrayed him as anything other than severely intellectually challenged, they wouldn't have gotten where they wanted to go...therein lies the rub. 

Edited May 17, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[wonderwall]

Marc Guggenheim answered an ask on tumblr regarding why the writers were making Oliver so stupid this season by making nonsensical decisions, and he responded with "We get a lot of mileage from Oliver being stupid" or something like that. That's the issue there. Not Felicity/Olicity. IMO they wanted Oliver to be stupid to keep Malcolm around even though it makes no sense for him to be around. 

 

I truly do wonder if the show would go through such lengths to keep Malcolm if he wasn't played by John Barrowman?

[NumberCruncher]

I truly do wonder if the show would go through such lengths to keep Malcolm if he wasn't played by John Barrowman?

Probably not. I agree with @Genki that a large part of the asinine, nonsensical plots this season lay right at the feet of the showrunners bending over backwards to somehow redeem Malcolm Merlyn. The problem is that not even Barrowman's charisma can overcome the fact that the character murdered 500 plus people and manipulated his daughter into killing another. Pretty much everything that happened from Sara's murder to the dreadful Ra's/LoA arc was created in order to give redemption to Malcolm. All of the other characters--Oliver in particular--got slaughtered in the wake either directly or indirectly.

[AyChihuahua]

Marc Guggenheim answered an ask on tumblr regarding why the writers were making Oliver so stupid this season by making nonsensical decisions, and he responded with "We get a lot of mileage from Oliver being stupid" or something like that. That's the issue there. Not Felicity/Olicity. IMO they wanted Oliver to be stupid to keep Malcolm around even though it makes no sense for him to be around. 

 

I truly do wonder if the show would go through such lengths to keep Malcolm if he wasn't played by John Barrowman?

It was something like Oliver "having his head up his ass."  I separate emotional and intellectual stupidity.  I don't have any problems with him being emotionally stupid, bc he was terrible pre-island and massively tortured, etc., since then.  So I didn't have a huge problem with him pushing away Felicity...frankly I think his reason in a real life situation would just be a fundamental inability to cope with close emotional relationships.  I'm fine with all that stuff and watching him work through it.  However, he's supposed to be a SUPERHERO.  I mean, Green Arrow, for God's sake.  I cannot begin to comprehend how the man has enough IQ points to renew his driver's license at this point.  I can't invest in the journey of a moron.  I can't do it.  I deal with dumb people IRL and can barely stand it, I definitely don't want it in my entertainment.  So next year, I really need them to stop making him so damn dumb.  However, I don't actually think Guggenheim is all that smart, so I do not have high hopes.

[wonderwall]

 So next year, I really need them to stop making him so damn dumb.  However, I don't actually think Guggenheim is all that smart, so I do not have high hopes.

 

I feel like this will only happen when they stop writing for plot and start writing for character. Hopefully Wendy Mericle is better at plotting than writing! I really hope she brings in a great new perspective. I want to see her succeed in help righting the Arrow ship.