Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[tv echo]

It's really sad if you look at the identity journeys that the EPs promoted last summer as being this season's theme.  Oliver's identity journey is all about him - his internal struggles and f**kups, his hopes and fears, Oliver vs. the Arrow.  However, the female characters' identity journeys are all about someone else.  Felicity is Ray's prop.  Thea is Malcolm's puppet.  Even Laurel's identity journey is about her dead sister - and although she's apparently resolved that conflict to being herself, her self is still being her sister's lookalike out in the field.

 

EDITED TO ADD:  Diggle's identity journey ("Am I a sidekick or am I my own man? Am I a crime fighter or am I a father?") is also about him.  His journey isn't about propping up Lyla while she undergoes her own evolution.  He isn't anyone's puppet.  He isn't trying to be like someone else.  So, there's been a definite difference between the male characters' identity journeys and the female characters' identity journeys.

Edited March 1, 2015 by tv echo

[NumberCruncher]

I think it's long been established that this show isn't the kindest in its treatment of female characters. I would have maybe given them some credit in Felicity's case up through S2 but we've seen how that has turned out...

Edited March 1, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[AyChihuahua]

The worst thing that has happened to Felicity is that the EPs and writers started paying attention to her.

[Pyramid]

So it occurs to me that the reason Felicity and Dig are getting hardly any story is because they're not originally comic characters.

Now I've never read the comics, but from what i understand from reading this board, pretty much every story this season has been ripped from the comics, so maybe the writers are just too damned lazy to come up with an original story line for them.

[KirkB]

You might be at least partly right, Pyramid. But I would add to your very likely theory an idea of my own. I don't think Diggle and Felicity were ever supposed to take off like they did. The show was supposed to be primarily about Oliver, at first. If the stories and interviews are to be believed the Canary and the rest of the Justice Little League were always planned to be coming though, so Diggle was just a placeholder until Oliver's real partner(s) could arrive and Felicity was never meant to be more than a one or two episode easter egg. To the EP's surprise the audience latched on them, since in many ways they were more fun to watch than Oliver, and at first they were happy with the extra attention but when Felicity began to overshadow Laurel as a potential love interest for Oliver and later Sara proved to be much more than a mask donor for Laurel they had to do something. So Sara was brutally killed, Diggle has been sidelined and Felicity is spending more time with Ray.

Edited March 1, 2015 by KirkB

[tv echo]

If the EPs didn't have the time or inclination to come up with original storylines for original characters so far, then what are they going to do next season when they'll be even busier with Flash, Supergirl, Atom/Firestorm/CL spin-off, etc.?  Plus, MG is doing the Arrow digital comics and the new Vixen animated series, as well as cultivating his novel writing career (Overwatch).

Edited March 2, 2015 by tv echo

[NumberCruncher]

If the EPs didn't have the time or inclination to come up with original storylines for original characters so far, then what are they going to do next season when they'll be even busier with Flash, Supergirl, Atom/Firestorm/CL spin-off, etc.?  Plus, MG is doing the Arrow digital comics and the new Vixen animated series, as well as cultivating his novel writing career (Overwatch).

It will be more of the same--i.e. blatantly ripping off comic book plotlines. The formula has worked wonders, after all.

[chaos is welcome]

It would be lovely if they brought in someone new and fresh (and not an idiot .. . oh wait, did I say that out loud??) to run the show. 

[Lord Kira]

Don't worry, everyone. Arrow still had plenty of Batman stories to rip-off of - er, I mean pay homage to.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Lord Kira

[tv echo]

Adding to MG's busy schedule, I just saw this recent news item...

 

MARVEL LAUNCHES "X-TINCTION AGENDA" AS PART OF "SECRET WARS"
http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/marvel-launches-x-tinction-agenda-as-part-of-secret-wars

"X-Tinction Agenda" will be written by Marc Guggenheim, who recently wrapped up an arc on "X-Men," and feature art from "All-New X-Factor's" Carmine Di Giandomenico.

Edited March 3, 2015 by tv echo

[Orion]

TVEcho posted a link in the News and Media thread on whether or not Arrow jumped the shark. (Guggenheim must be so happy). I went to TVTropes to look at what they define as jump the shark moments and I'm putting this in this thread because all of these things make me beyond bitter.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JumpingTheShark

 

A popular character is removed from the show, or even killed off. Especially true if the method of removal is unsatisfying or mean-spirited. (Oliver's death and return)

 

The writers pen a replacement character who isn't as compelling as the one who left. (Ray and Laurel)

 

• The Scrappy is given more spotlight and screentime, which sometimes exonerates him through character development, but more often turns him into a Creator's Pet. (Laurel)

 

• An existing character evolves in a way that flattens rather than enriches them, or which contradicts prior depictions of said character. This can have the effect of alienating fans. (Literally every character)

 

• A character becomes a Creator's Pet or a Canon Sue. (Laurel)

 

• The protagonist degenerates into an Invincible Hero or worse, a Failure Hero. (Oliver)

 

• The show's premise is radically altered, such as having the characters change careers or move to a new location. (more of an ensemble show)

 

• Conversely, the show (which is supposedly based on a coherent story arc rather than a series of episodic events) drags on too long without any sort of progress or resolution. May be the result of too much filler or over-reliance on Failure Is the Only Option or the Reset Button. If the plot is based on a Myth Arc, dragging it out too long or piling plot thread upon plot thread without resolution may lead to fans getting the impression that the writers are just making it up as they go along and subsequently tuning out. (Almost every story arc, MM, Sara's murder, Ra's)

 

• The show experiences mood whiplash in an unbelievable manner, typically a result of executive meddling wanting to make the show darker and edgier or lighter and softer.

 

• A jarring rise/decline in the sliding scale of villain threat, unless it's written well and/or used for comedic purposes, such as a big bad trying to take over the local 7-11 being usurped by one bent on destroying the galaxy.(Ra's, MM)

 

• The plot is resolved with one too many plot twists or retcons which are inconsistent with the overall narrative, poorly executed, or are just plain stupid, turning the audience away.(Sara's death, Laurel's rise, Ra's, MM redemption)

 

• A show's moment of awesome, in the sense that the show never lives up to said moment again, despite trying. (2A I'm afraid)

 

• The storylines, character dynamics, etc. are so farfetched or over-the-top that they stretch the audience's willing suspension of disbelief way beyond its limits. (Laurel, Ra's, Raylicity, MM)

 

• Too much (or in some rare cases not enough) padding, especially true if "No, really, it gets better!" The audience is likely to grow impatient and give up.

 

• Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy: Too much angst (or worse, wangst) makes the audience lose sympathy for the characters and tune out.

 

• A major plot point is apparently resolved only to be immediately unresolved—over and over again. (Who killed Sara Lance)

 

• Too many continuity errors. (visible stunt doubles, visible sets, disappearing scars, disappearing fern)

 

• The show keeps saying how awesome something is, but doesn't actually let you know why (e.g., the characters are promoted to a higher rank, only to get less gadgets and fight even weaker villains). (Ra's)

 

• Too many sequels or spin-offs, each one less creative than the last. (Flash, New Show, Vixen, Comics)

 

• The creator of the show gets kicked upstairs or simply "sells out". This means that he can't micromanage his creation anymore. Alternatively, said creator or other key members of the staff that contributed to the work have departed for other projects. Either way, more the better for others to insert their own vision. (GB, AK leaving MG in control)

 

• The show gains enough star-power to sell by itself and/or the creator becomes a house-hold name, which may led to the writers ignoring their editors and higher-ups out of the assumption that the work will be a hit even when the fans say otherwise.

 

• An Ascended Fanboy becomes the writer/director/producer. As a result, the show in question may become susceptible to personal overindulgences in Mythology Gags, Internal Homage, excessive Shout-Out, Actor Allusion, Fan Wank and other sorts of love letters to the show. This tends to happen with long running or multigenerational franchises. (Describes MG)

 

I don't know if Arrow has jumped the shark, for me I think it has (even though I keep hoping, against all odds)

But we seem to be hitting a LOT of the things that trigger a jump the shark moment on this show and there doesn't seem to be anyone with their hands on the wheel paying a lot of attention to what is going on.

 

I'll leave this super long post (sorry) on this:

 

• A popular character is removed from the show, or even killed off. Especially true if the method of removal is unsatisfying or mean-spirited. This can be considered a single-character form of The Firefly Effect. The standard candidate for this treatment is the heart/the chick, who will usually also be an introverted, quiet, and relatively pacifistic character; who the executives will want to replace with a character who is Hotter and Sexier and easier for the writers to develop ideas for, and probably also an actor who has greater artistic ability.

 

 

Run Felicity!

[Sakura12]

It's the "Trust the writers, be patient, it gets better" that I hate. Almost every time I've heard that I've stopped watching the show a few episodes later. Because it's never gotten better (unless someone else steps in and changes everything)

 

I shouldn't have to wait for a show to get better. It should be better!

[lemotomato]

It's the "Trust the writers, be patient, it gets better" that I hate. Almost every time I've heard that I've stopped watching the show a few episodes later. Because it's never gotten better (unless someone else steps in and changes everything)

I shouldn't have to wait for a show to get better. It should be better!

Whenever I hear "trust the writers", I want to respond with "why? What have they done to earn our trust?" How much time do we spend here trying to fanwank character motivations and cover plot holes? That's *bad* writing. Almost everything good about the show was a happy accident or not related to the plot-- finding EBR and Caity Lotz, having a talented main cast with good chemistry, awesome stunts. I'd venture to say I loved "Arrow" *despite* the cheesy dialogue and ridiculous storylines.

[blixie]

Yeah I think TPTB fundamentally equate viewer dissatisfaction with viewer entitlement, because no one could legitimately just think what is being written sucks. Yo bruhs, I'm not entitled to Team Arrow, and y'all aren't entitled to my trust. See how that works!

 

I think I've been struggling though with why I'm so annoyed by the cast bloat on this show, and why it's SO problematic to shift this show from a singular hero's journey to a ensemble work place action adventure. I actually prefer shows that have strong ensemble, TVD for three years, The Originals, Old School ER, and I mean wholly aside from the fact that the people writing those shows knew HOW to write for an ensemble, I think the key is that Arrow simply does not have the screen time to cater to a large group of characters, it's fight scenes and it's hero heroing are a significant piece of any given episodes time allotment, a quarter even of every single one, the simply do not have the space and time to write for some many damn people. 

 

But then I look at The Flash and think how great they are doing with a significantly large cast, but they have Berlanti running the ship directly for now and his stock in trade before Arrow/DC stuff was relationship driven ensemble drama, which leads me right back to thinking they need to find someone other than Marc Guggenheim to run the kind of show they insist Arrow has become. Because JHC does he ever suck at it.

Edited March 3, 2015 by blixie

[Danny Franks]

Adding to MG's busy schedule, I just saw this recent news item...

 

MARVEL LAUNCHES "X-TINCTION AGENDA" AS PART OF "SECRET WARS"

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/marvel-launches-x-tinction-agenda-as-part-of-secret-wars

 

What? X-Tinction Agenda was written 25 years ago by Chris Claremont and Louise Simonsen. Have Marvel so run out of ideas that they're recycling old story titles now? 

 

Huh. That preview cover is even an 'homage' to one of the X-Tinction Agenda covers. So perhaps it's just a Guggenheim special, and he's stealing from an old comic book written by someone more talented than him (and I'm not even a Claremont fan). And on reading further, it is just a rip off of an old story. God, Marvel really have just put all their eggs in the movie basket, haven't they?

[KirkB]

X-Tinction Agenda, done before, part of Secret Wars, done at least twice before so yes, I'd say they are least out of ideas for names, if not stories.

[olicityfan25]

What if The Flash was their prize the entire time? Look who immediately left from Arrow. It just bothers me that they used Arrow to launch the Flash. They left Arrow in the hands of someone who is such an ass most of the time to fans, who have legitimate concerns about their favourite show. 

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, I stopped trusting the writers of show`s I loved when David the Gnome ended with all the characters randomly dying and turning into tree`s when I was in pre-school. I`ve had trust issues ever since. Now, I can trust that some writers have a plan, when I have seen that they can follow through with plans at other points in the show. But these writers are not doing anything to earn my trust. I know it sounds dramatic, but to this day, when a show I love starts messing up, misusing my favorite characters, and seeming to not care about me, as a veiwer and a fan, and instead are only writing for themselves, I feel betrayed. I`m not surprised anymore, but it stills hurts. It sounds silly, but it really does hurt me. I give a lot to the things I love to read/watch, and it makes me really sad when it feels like the people who gave them to me just don`t care.

 

i dont really trust writers, but it still hurts to be let down.  

[FurryFury]

But then I look at The Flash and think how great they are doing with a significantly large cast, but they have Berlanti running the ship directly for now and his stock in trade before Arrow/DC stuff was relationship driven ensemble drama, which leads me right back to thinking they need to find someone other than Marc Guggenheim to run the kind of show they insist Arrow has become. Because JHC does he ever suck at it.

 

Um, no. Berlanti's NOT running The Flash. He isn''t showrunning anything right now - he's only developing new shows, constantly. Next year is Supergirl and I think something else non-superhero (or maybe I'm confusing things). Anyway, AFAIK, Kreisberg's showrunning The Flash. And also, this show is SHIT when it comes to ensembles. Seriously, s1/2 Arrow blows the Flash out of the water when it comes to supporting characters. It's way too focused on Barry. As bad as Laurel was, at least she had a POV - Iris doesn't, we, viewers, are left to second-guess her opinions and thoughts. Another female character, at least, is plot-relevant and has a bit more screentime/POV, but her characterization is so inconsistent it hurts. Cisco is basically late s2 (and s3, from what I hear) Diggle in terms of importance and screen-time. The only characters served well on The Flash are Barry, Joe and Wells.

[Ang]

From @belinea in the Spoiler Discussion thread:

 

 

But I still want to see Oliver win at something. Anything at all. I want to see the guy come out on top. Just once.

 

Does anyone here remember when they tried to reboot the show Cupid? It caught my attention for some reason and I watched the original show on YouTube. Neither version was really a success, maybe one season each if that, but I could see why they tried to remake it. There were some really, really enjoyable elements to it. When I analyzed it, I came to the conclusion that one of the main reasons it never caught fire like it could have is that they had this unfathomable tendency to end episodes on a major down note. The show had a ton of funny, sexy, romantic, insightful, fun (etc. etc.) moments. Jeremy Piven had less of a reputation back then and his smile was charismatic. And yet, you'd have 40 minutes of fun times followed by his character having some kind of bummer moment. I suppose they were trying to create room for character growth, but it was a terrible way to end the show and left me, anyway, with a completely different experience than if they'd ended five minutes earlier. 

 

I bring this up because I think the Arrow creators are having a hard time remembering that we as an audience need something to hold onto. We need positive experiences with/reactions to the show, or we're not going to enjoy spending our time watching it or thinking about it. There absolutely can and should be trials and angst and difficulties and identity crises and the like, but all those things are going to go over so much better if they're served up with, as Belinea said, successes alongside them.

 

I watched a couple early season 2 episodes while doing laundry today. They were the ones introducing Sara into the group, and you had plenty of angst and tears but you also had Team Arrow operating gorgeously. The Arrow (or was he The Hood then?) was truly a superhero, achieving unbelievable feats. Felicity was in the lair misdirecting the police, Diggle was out of the action essentially directing Oliver, and so to the people he was fighting, The Arrow was everywhere and nowhere and had eyes in the back of his head. It was heroic and all the more powerful because the agonizing flashbacks and the drama with Sara gave it weight. 

 

I get that they're focusing on a season-long arc, but the flashbacks, as someone else on the board mentioned, are so rarely connected to the story, they don't really show even small victories, and the little moments of character connections they have occasionally (like Oliver and Diggle in Nanda Parbat) seem few and far between. For me, anyway, the thrill of seeing a character in costume or from the comics isn't doing enough to balance out the overwhelming negativity of the season as a whole. I think they're trying for balance, but when they put the lighter moments with Ray without tying him into the main narrative, it doesn't really have the same effect.

[Starfish35]

So.....I was feeling masochistic tonight and watched the Bucklepocolypse (311-313). Lolololololol. It helped a lot, I think, going through all the rage with you all here before I actually watched the episodes.

I'm not going to do point by point reviews. I will just say this. There was a whole lot of writing for plot instead of things like you know, logic and sense-making, and character continuity. *facepalm*

Yeah. I don't even know.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Starfish35

[chaos is welcome]

This made me lololololol and my feelings about it seemed to belong in the bitterness thread: from spoilers thread. (Guggies tumblr)

 

 

mprettyblog asked:
Now to the point. You asked what i want to see felicity do. Well, her story. I can imagine Felicity with a costume and a mask, dont you? Again, no need answer and post. Forgive my grammar (mexican here). Have a great show, sincerely. Mary, bye.
Honestly, I feel that Felicity with a costume and a mask would be a bridge too far.  Sorry.

Because a DA who took boxing lessons becoming a vigilante is SOOOOO REALISTIC.  The only reason Laurel is BC is because!comics.  It makes me bitter to no end, even though I've mostly quit the show.  I don't even want to give Felicity a mask, but clearly if ya don't wear a mask you are second tier on this show.  Idiot.

[Starfish35]

moved to Laurel Lance thread....

Edited March 7, 2015 by Starfish35

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, ok Guggie. Felicity with a costume is a bridge too far. I kind of thought that having all your heroes team up with a mass murdering psychopath for no reason other than to fight a league of international ninjas that are led by an immortal ninja, who wouldn't even want to fight the heroes if they would just get rid of the aforementioned mass murdering psychopath, was maybe a bit too much to handle, but what do I know? I`m just a fan with an internet connection. 

 

At least Felicity would have the sense to actually get some real training in before running after wife beaters, or trying to take on master assassins. At least, I think so. Who know`s anymore. 

[Scribbles]

 

..., but when they put the lighter moments with Ray without tying him into the main narrative, it doesn't really have the same effect.

Reminds me of the idea:  When writing a character that is suffering, don't forgot if you beat them up too much and sell it too well the audience may rightly conclude they are better off dead.  Distancing any hope or brevity too far from Oliver risks this just as you noted.

[Password]

At this point Felicity as a masked superhero isn't too far from reach. If Laurel can do it after 3 minutes of training, then Felicity can. And she'd do it in heels.

[tv echo]

MG won't put Felicity in a mask & costume.  He still regards her as a supporting character.  At the recent Long Beach Comic Expo, he and his wife, Tara Butters, were comparing Jarvis (from Agent Carter) to Felicity and calling them both supporting, albeit necessary, characters.

[jay741982]

MG won't put Felicity in a mask & costume.  He still regards her as a supporting character.  At the recent Long Beach Comic Expo, he and his wife, Tara Butters, were comparing Jarvis (from Agent Carter) to Felicity and calling them both supporting, albeit necessary, characters.

Yet Felicity is more important and gets more screen time than his overrated Hated leading lady. Felicity is way more than A supporting character it's just a shame she's more popular than his precious laurel

[Genki]

MG won't put Felicity in a mask & costume.  He still regards her as a supporting character.  At the recent Long Beach Comic Expo, he and his wife, Tara Butters, were comparing Jarvis (from Agent Carter) to Felicity and calling them both supporting, albeit necessary, characters.

 

That is weird and SO disappointing. IMO hey are both secondary leads, in terms of importance and enjoyment, for their shows.

[tennisgurl]

That makes NO sense. They have been promoting Felicity as the new leading lady since last season, and now she`s just a "supporting character"? Who the hell is the lead? Laurel? The character that basically every major critic has said is either a drain on the show, or is just kind of...there? And her story does not even make sense with her as a leading lady. She has had a lot to do lately but before that? First she`s Ollie`s ex girlfriend he need to do right by. THEN she`s hunting down the Arrow. THEN she`s a damsel in distress. THEN...you get my point. Her character has not been a leader of this ensemble. Until recently, she`s been in her own plot lines, basically independent of everyone else, or even working against them. This Black Canary stuff does not change that. I mean, holy crap. This season, its like they realized they wanted Laurel to be the new star, and even side lined poor Oliver. And when they do focus on him, they make him act totally out of character to prop up their pets, Laurel, Ray, and Malcom. What they are telling us now DOES NOT match up with what we have seen before.  

[Morrigan2575]

Felicity is a supporting character, everyone on the show except Oliver is a supporting character.

On Agent Carter, everyone but Peggy, including Jarvis is a supporting character.

Both shows are about a singular heroes journey. Now, if Arrow really did turn into a true ensemble show that would be a different story.

[KirkB]

Morrigan2575 is right. Emily and David may be co-stars, in that they share the main credits, but Diggle and Felicity are supporting characters in Oliver's story. This is not a disparaging comment on the characters. It doesn't make them any less important. It's just that even if they get an entire episode devoted to them it will still end up orbiting Oliver's story in come capacity. Neither they. nor Roy and Laurel, are co-stars, they're supporting. Now if they change the show to Arrow and Canary or Queen and Smoak, that would change, but I don't seriously see either of those happening.

[wonderwall]

Yeah I gotta agree with KirkB and Morrigan2575 on this one. As much as I adore Felicity, she's always going to be a supporting character to Oliver's story. But you can see by screentime and by importance, they're anything but. Regardless, Felicity is supporting. Laurel is also supporting. But if they call her the leading lady I'd understand that too. Seniority and whatnot. 

[statsgirl]

I think Arrow needs Diggle and Felicity more than Peggy Carter needs her various supporting characters.  They tried Oliver alone in the first episodes of season 1 and the show got better when they added Diggle to the lair, and a whole lot better when they added Felicity.  They are supporting characters but Oliver's story needs some lightening up.  That's what Jarvis does for Agent Carter.

 

On the other hand, too many supporting characters weakens the good things about the original ones (Diggle not going out fighting, Felicity being isolated) while not contributing enough to make the overall show better.

[tennisgurl]

Oh, I totally agree. I think Oliver is totally the main character. I mean, the show is called Arrow, and not Arrow and Company. In fact, one of my issues with this season is them sidelining Oliver`s hero`s journey, and spending too much time on the stories of Ray, Malcolm, and Laurel. I love Oliver, and I hate the way he has been written lately. 

 

My issue with the statement of Felicity as supporting character is more about her purpose on the show versus Laurel`s. Prior to the Black Canary stuff, Laurel has general seemed like a less important character than Felicity, in the big arc of the show. Felicity, especially last season, was established as one of the main two supporting characters. She, Oliver, and Dig were a power trio. Yeah she was a supporting player, but she was still a very main character. This season, I feel like she and Dig have both been pushed to the side to make room for Laurel, and the million other subplots. If they can give time for all this other stuff, it sucks that they use "she`s just a supporting character" for Felicity. It goes the same for Dig. 

[statsgirl]

But if you ask MG and AK, they will say that far from Felicity being pushed to the side, this season she's been given her own storyline with PT and Ray, and has had the chance to really develop as a character outside of being tech support for Team Arrow.

 

That's the difference between their perception and mine.

 

I think it proves just how much Oliver is the central figure on the show.  Like with Laurel's plots in s1 and 2, if you're not in Oliver's plotline, it's like you're not on the show.

 

--

Harvey on Suits:  Donna, don't go. I can't be who I am without you.

Oliver:  Felicity, I can't be who I need to be if I'm with you. 

(Why I'm enjoying Suits more than Arrow right now)

Edited March 8, 2015 by statsgirl

[Menrva]

Just needed to quickly vent:

So I finally watched The Dark Knight Rises. And I'm so irritated at the blatant ripoffs.

 

Frankly, I'm embarrassed at how bad Arrow comes off, it's not even a well done homage. It's just a cheesy copy that has none of the gravitas of the source, and I didn't even like The Dark Knight Rises. If I want dark'n'gritty, I'll watch the Nolan films, thank you very much. And if I want to see a billionaire genius playboy philanthropist fly around in his fancy metal suit, I have Robert Downey Jr. and Iron Man. I don't need some half assed attempt to ride on a popular rival's coattails. Arrow simply doesn't have the budget to make me take the Atom seriously. It's just embarrassing. I couldn't even watch Ray Palmer suit up. I had to FF through it, so cringeworthy it looked to me. I know Arrow is a ripoff of Batman, but it's still possible to bring something new to the formula. Steven Amell's portrayal of Oliver Queen is seriously the only reason I kept watching, despite the nonsensical plots and horrendous dialogue. 

 

I wish they could use their budget constraints to spur their imaginations. I remember reading about Battlestar Galactica and how one of the main reasons they decided to make the Cylons look human was because of budgets. They simply didn't have the money for lots of CGI, so they used it as sparingly as possible and came up with a really fascinating story to tell.

 

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled bitterness…

[Morrigan2575]

You think that's bad?  Go watch Batman Begins and then the Arrow pilot...Laurel is Rachael Dawes and I swear some of the O/L scenes are straight up rip-offs of the Bruce/Rachel scenes.

[Password]

Hmmm now I want to.

[kismet]

So there is speculation that they will use a lazarus pit on someone this season and TPTB seem to believe that they will save the show in the last few episodes with all their masterful "epic" "gamechanging" twists & plots (ill believe it when I see it). And I just wanna tell them you can't Lazarus Pit this show, it doesn't miraculously cure all the problems you intentionally laid the groundwork for over the past episodes. It might resurrect the show and make people watch s4 or buy merch but it will not fix all the damage they caused to the characters. There has been some serious character distortion/ruining for plot that will not vanish regardless of what they pull off in the latter 1/3 of the season. In my mind what the characters (esp LL, FS, MM & OQ) did will always remain.

Edited March 12, 2015 by kismet

[poetgirl925]

That post about moments that signal 'jumping the shark' is interesting. It's also scary since it is so very applicable to Arrow at the moment. I think I'm mostly bitter about the soul sucking angst at this point. I know they want Arrow to be gritty like Nolan's Batman, but seriously, that was a 2 hour movie - the whole trilogy is what - 7 hours or so? Maybe 8? I can handle angst for a 2 hour movie, or even a trilogy, but Arrow seasons are 23 freaking episodes. Who wants to sit through that many hours of angst in a row? I'm tired. I spent a week volunteering at a refugee camp last summer, and I felt less depressed at the end of that week than I do watching Arrow episodes this season. Worse, it's not even well written angst.

I'm starting to feel more and more justified in not watching the rest of the season. I'm waiting to see if anything at Paley changes my mind there. On the bright side, I have the last four episodes of Agent Carter to watch, and I think that's on my agenda for tonight.

[statsgirl]

Sometimes I feel like the difference between watching Arrow and cleaning the toilet is that cleaning the toilet only takes 5 minutes and at the end of it, I feel better.

[Danny Franks]

Every time I see a picture of Routh in his knock off Iron Man costume, I laugh. He looks so goofy and uncomfortable, and if they hope to make that guy, and that look, the mainstay of a new show, then they're doomed. It just isn't going to work when you ask an audience to take him seriously.

 

Not that it seems to have prevented the clots writing Arrow from doing everything possible to prop him up as some wonderful guy. But I still think that they're flushing this whole show down the toilet just to try and get their new show and their favourite character (Laurel) to be accepted by fans who don't have any obligation to welcome either of them. You can't force people to like something, all you can do is bombard them with it until they just give in and stop caring.

 

As things stand, I wouldn't be at all surprised if those promo pics of the Arrow facing off against Tin Man are followed by Oliver getting his arse handed to him by Super Ray and his wonderful aura of wholesome greatness. Because clearly being a successful vigilante is no great achievement, and the fact it took Oliver five years when everyone else can do it in a few months shows just how shitty he must be at it.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Danny Franks

[Sakura12]

I never heard of the ATOM until this show and when I looked him up he was not wearing a knock off Iron Man suit. His suit is similar to the Flash only red and blue. Why is he dressing in a metal suit on this show? Can they not make their own character? They have to copy better versions like Iron Man even with costumes. It also would've been better to have him shrink no matter how ridiculous a "power" that is. Antman hasn't come out yet, so most people wouldn't know about the Marvel version of that character yet. You'd think DC would want to be first at something. 

[Menrva]

I never heard of the ATOM until this show and when I looked him up he was not wearing a knock off Iron Man suit. His suit is similar to the Flash only red and blue. Why is he dressing in a metal suit on this show? Can they not make their own character? They have to copy better versions like Iron Man even with costumes. It also would've been better to have him shrink no matter how ridiculous a "power" that is. Antman hasn't come out yet, so most people wouldn't know about the Marvel version of that character yet. You'd think DC would want to be first at something. 

I'm not certain what they intended with Ray either. The suit looks goofy, in a kind of Tron sort of way. I half expected him to say, "Greetings, programs!" But my biggest problem with Ray is that he feels very 2 dimensional, not a fleshed out character in his own right. I suppose it could be the fault of both the writing and the acting, though I don't really mind Brandon Routh. (I didn't dislike him in 'Superman Returns"; frankly, he was the least problematic thing about that movie, in my opinion. Now Kate Bosworth and that Child of the Corn who was their kid, don't get me started. And why was she carrying him all the freaking time? He's nearly 5 years old, the kid can walk! But I digress…) I don't need Ray to be angst-ridden like Oliver and I don't need to see him falling apart from his wife's death, but he just rings very false to me. It's just a rehash of things we've seen before. Tony Stark was pretty unique when he was introduced to the world of superheroes back in 2008; a flawed, conflicted man-child genius who decides to save the world. But now we are practically tripping over flawed geniuses, Sherlock/Elementary, House MD, even Doctor Who to some degree. Maybe Ray Palmer is more upbeat than many of those characters, but he still feels like a pale copy of superior originals. And if the Atom is going to truly be his own superhero, he needs to stand on his own.

I'm also bitter that it seems that Felicity this season is entirely defined by her relationships with men. It's all about her non-relationship with Oliver or her rebound sex with Ray. (And it's totally rebound sex, for both of them. Anyone thinking otherwise is just fooling themselves.) She's not well integrated into the plots this season, much like Laurel for the first two seasons. Even on "The Secret Origins of Felicity Smoak", she seems to make a 180 degree change in her life choices and appearance based on her boyfriend's apparent death. And that was the episode I thought showed me the Felicity we knew and loved the most this season. It's disappointing to say the least, to see how she has been isolated and marginalized. I don't expect unicorns and rainbows all the time, but there have been few bright spots to see us through so far.

[statsgirl]

I never heard of the ATOM until this show and when I looked him up he was not wearing a knock off Iron Man suit. His suit is similar to the Flash only red and blue. Why is he dressing in a metal suit on this show?

I'd hazard a guess it's because he can't shrink and he can't really fight so he needs to protect himself somehow.

 

 

I'm also bitter that it seems that Felicity this season is entirely defined by her relationships with men. It's all about her non-relationship with Oliver or her rebound sex with Ray.

They probably thought they were doing Felicity favors in giving her a grand romance apart from Oliver, but it ended up hurting both Ray and Felicity a lot.

 

Folie a quatorze, for the eleven writers plus 3 EPs.

[catrox14]

Felicity is a supporting character, everyone on the show except Oliver is a supporting character.

On Agent Carter, everyone but Peggy, including Jarvis is a supporting character.

Both shows are about a singular heroes journey. Now, if Arrow really did turn into a true ensemble show that would be a different story.

 

I'm not convinced Oliver is even the leading character in his own damn show anymore.

[Delphi]

I'm so sick of the "but comics" argument being used by the fandom and even writers. It's just so completely invalid. In this show they have literally killed Manhunter acc Ravager, deaged Wildcat and have turned the Huntress into a completely deranged psychopath (I say that with a grain of salt). This is not a show that follows the comics and I'm not sure that the people using the argument haven't read a comic. Rant over.

[wonderwall]

I'm so sick of the "but comics" argument being used by the fandom and even writers. It's just so completely invalid. In this show they have literally killed Manhunter acc Ravager, deaged Wildcat and have turned the Huntress into a completely deranged psychopath (I say that with a grain of salt). This is not a show that follows the comics and I'm not sure that the people using the argument haven't read a comic. Rant over.

 

"But comics" is their lifeline and legit their only argument for what they want because on paper and screen what they want makes zero sense. I'd be pissed, but the fact that they hold onto that argument so god damn hard is just hilarious. 

 

NOW when the writers do it (Laurel becoming BC because of comics), that's when I get pissed off. They retconned Laurel so hard in episode 14 when she told Quentin that she was always heading that direction of being a vigilante. That's not gonna fly with me. The fact that they need to spend all this energy into making Laurel happen is just frustrating and exhausting to me as a viewer. Hopefully they shove Laurel back into the background now that her so called farcical 'destiny' has been realized. 

[moviewhore]

I'm bitter that Oliver is being made redundant.  Really, what is the point of the man now with Laurel's all=of-a-sudden progress as the BC and having the new guy flying around in a superpowered costume?  The fucking show is propping Laurel and Ray so much that Ollie's hard-won journey that took him being on a island for 5 goddamn years to endless training meaning nothing. He could not have even bothered with any of that. Not with Ray already a superhero as the poor man's Tony Stark.  Might as well just shut down the headquarters and throw out the suit.

 

Ollie's lost his place as the show's center.  He's lost everything and isn't making gains in his life at all.  Shit, even Felicity fucked Ray before him-don't get me started on that bullshit because it makes me hate her a little.  He's got no family besides Thea,  no one to love and to cherish or have anyone love and cherish him.  He's been isolated, psychologically tortured, and then thrown into the scrapheap in favor of the :shiny and new" good guys no one give two fucks about .  Who dis SA piss off on the show with all this crap?