Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[insubordination]

I bet it was MG who advocated the sister swapping. I'm surprised he didn't write in a threesome.  There's always flashbacks! The worst thing is that Shado, Sara and Moira were awesome and strong female characters, and apparent morbid delight seemed to be taken in their gratuitous executions because viewers were subjected to watching their deaths several times each. Take that strong women!   Nyssa has got to be next. She fits the profile, though she could be safe because she might not fuel Oliver's manpain enough.

 

They're giving the viewers what they 'need', are they? I'm glad I haven't witnessed what they've apparently done to Thea and Felicity lately. 

 

 I agree that if a child wrote a story like that, an intervention would be required.

Edited February 27, 2015 by insubordination

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I don't normally visit celebrity's social media, but I cruised by Amell's. He seems to have a running theme "wait..what?"  

 

I feel like we started Arrow anxiously waiting to see how it all played out and now we are asking what the hell just happened and we need to add in why. And not in the good way Amell seems to be thinking a "wait...what" response is meant to be. 

 

I'm bitter because I can't give up everything Arrow. I've given up the show, but I still hit this forum and I'm still enjoying fanvids and fanfic. I need to quit cold turkey and forget Arrow ever appeared on my screen.

[jay741982]

I bet it was MG who advocated the sister swapping. I'm surprised he didn't write in a threesome.  There's always flashbacks! The worst thing is that Shado, Sara and Moira were awesome and strong female characters, and apparent morbid delight seemed to be taken in their gratuitous executions because viewers were subjected to watching their deaths several times each. Take that strong women!   Nyssa has got to be next. She fits the profile, though she could be safe because she might not fuel Oliver's manpain enough.

 

They're giving the viewers what they 'need', are they? I'm glad I haven't witnessed what they've apparently done to Thea and Felicity lately. 

 

 I agree that if a child wrote a story like that, an intervention would be required.

And Thea and Felicity have been stronger women than Laurel

[Shanna]

This is the thing that kills me about the show. They have written so many fantastic female characters! They just insist on throwing them away. I don't understand why you do something fantastic and then just kill them off or make them brain damaged in support of your other characters. And I almost said other male characters but it's also in support of laurel. Who is easily the worst female character they've done.

To be fair, they also did the same to tommy for the same reasons. He slots into the samerole of many females in this show, killed to support laurel and Oliver's stories.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Shanna

[chaos is welcome]

I don't normally visit celebrity's social media, but I cruised by Amell's. He seems to have a running theme "wait..what?"  

 

I feel like we started Arrow anxiously waiting to see how it all played out and now we are asking what the hell just happened and we need to add in why. And not in the good way Amell seems to be thinking a "wait...what" response is meant to be. 

 

I'm bitter because I can't give up everything Arrow. I've given up the show, but I still hit this forum and I'm still enjoying fanvids and fanfic. I need to quit cold turkey and forget Arrow ever appeared on my screen.

It will come, I promise. I was where you are now, and both fan vids and ff have lost their appeal. Haven't watched since midway through 3.11, and everything I read just drives more nails into the coffin of never watching again. I could live with alllll the bull if they wouldn't ruin felicity but it sounds like they have. It makes me bitter that they didn't understand what attracted people to the character.

[catrox14]

I am  bitter that instead of focusing on the Green Arrow and Oliver Queen becoming the true hero that he is, they are tempting him to be the head of the snake.  I am bitter that they killed off Sara as Black Canary who was so wonderfully portrayed by Caity Lotz only to cast her in a spinoff and leaves Arrow stuck with the far lesser Black Canary in Laurel.  I am bitter that Oliver is being turned into a fool :(. 

 

I loved Arrow because it was different and smart and unexpected. And now they have become stupid and expected with typical crap. I hated having the Atom fly in Arrow.That really pissed me of because it undermines Oliver since he doesn't have any superpowers. I loved Arrow because it was as "reality" based as a superhero show could be. 

 

I am just really bitter at the bit by bit destruction of everything I loved about Arrow :(

[DrSpaceman10]

I think Arrow needs a rule wherein nothing that happens between episodes 13-20 of any given season counts. That's generally when characters start to act stupidly for plot and confounding things happen.

[Password]

It didn't happen in season 1 though did it? I distinctly remember it getting better then. Oliver started being stupid in the triangle after that. I guess he was stupid with his mother though.

[MadMouse]

The biggest disappointed for me has been the execution of the story this season. At some point the hero will pull away from his allies and be accused of changing into someone they can't trust, follow, etc. Its a common trope of the hero genre. Everything about this season as a concept works and if I read this as an outline I would be hyped to see it play out on screen. Unfortunately they've rushed through or skipped so many story beats to make it work. Its the complete opposite of the first two seasons. I'm guessing this a behind the scenes issue related to some changes in producers or writers.

 

And Brandon Routh's lack of charisma and chemistry with anyone doesn't help at all. Did they watch Superman or Chuck? 

 

 

[olicityfan25]

Maybe they'll show The Atom not succeeding thus letting everyone see how special Oliver is.

 

What am I thinking? They want to tear down each character. Especially OG3.

[benteen]

Yup, the shoddy treatment of female characters on this show comes as no surprise when one reads some of MG's sexist comments on Twitter/Tumblr. Personally, I was already a bit irked when MG repeatedly stated that "Oliver screws everything he moves" - reducing characters like Laurel, Shado, Helena, McKenna and Sara to nothing but a meaningless notch in a bedpost. Really, the only female character that descriptor may apply to would be Isabel. She was really nothing more than a meaningless one-night-stand, but the rest were women that (post-island) Oliver genuinely liked and cared for.

 

MG might have also been the producer who said they look at every female who appears on the show as a potential love interest for Oliver.

 

I'm bitter because the personalities of the main characters are altered week-to-week to fit the script instead of the script being written around the characters personalities.

[Password]

Maybe they'll show The Atom not succeeding thus letting everyone see how special Oliver is.

I really don't think they'll allow us to see why Oliver is a good hero at all, especially in comparison to Ray. Ray will fail, pick himself up and do better. Oliver will fail, destroy all relationships in his life and become hated, and while they're at it allow someone else close to him to die. Ray will be a 'good hero', Oliver is the asswipe who complicates everyone's life.

Oliver isn't allowed to learn from his mistakes so he'll keep making them. I believe Oliver is meant to learn from Ray, but at this point I just want Ray off my screen. If Oliver isn't allowed to learn that secrets are never good, team Arrow should always be consulted and protecting others by pushing them away or making unilateral decisions isn't good - all of which happened in season 1&2 - , then I don't particularly want him to learn from Ray. They've more than regressed him, they've made him outright stupid.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Limbo

[calliope1975]

I've added a new layer to my bitterness (it's like a 7-layer dip). This new spin-off didn't come out of nowhere. There had to be a little bit of talk about this happening for awhile. There was too much set up (albeit poorly) on both The Flash and Arrow for these extraneous heroes. So this entire season of Arrow has bent over backwards with stupid plots, damaged relationships, most everyone has been written out-of-character, and they killed off a great character (who is now coming back in some capacity) for some crappy 3rd tier super hero spin-off instead of putting all their efforts into the 2 shows that are already guaranteed. 

[catrox14]

If I could upvote your comment repeatedly, Calliope1975 I would.  I am really aggravated that Oliver Queen has been been shunted to the side to launch this spinoff. The Flash was okay because it didn't destroy Oliver in the process.  So bitter. 

[Pothunter]

I think Arrow needs a rule wherein nothing that happens between episodes 13-20 of any given season counts. That's generally when characters start to act stupidly for plot and confounding things happen.

 

I think this is a very good argument for 15 or 16-episode seasons.

[kismet]

The biggest disappointed for me has been the execution of the story this season. At some point the hero will pull away from his allies and be accused of changing into someone they can't trust, follow, etc. Its a common trope of the hero genre. Everything about this season as a concept works and if I read this as an outline I would be hyped to see it play out on screen. Unfortunately they've rushed through or skipped so many story beats to make it work. Its the complete opposite of the first two seasons. I'm guessing this a behind the scenes issue related to some changes in producers or writers.

 

And Brandon Routh's lack of charisma and chemistry with anyone doesn't help at all. Did they watch Superman or Chuck? 

Not sure about Superman. But I feel like they've had to have watched Chuck, I mean they copied the storyline almost to a tee - a towel scene and everything. Only 2 major differences are BR had a wife not a fiancee (altho in an interview BR said Anna was his wife, so even he's lil confused by the overlapping plots) &

he turns out to be evil/bad, which they can't do in this one since he supposed to be the ATOM.

.  At least on Chuck, they did let him interact with other characters & his slight off charisma/charm played off better with those characters & plot than they do on Arrow.

Edited February 28, 2015 by kismet

[loki567]

Yeah, Shaw (BR's character on Chuck) felt like more of a well-rounded character because he had relationships with other characters. They really don't do him (or the spinoff) any favors by having him completely defined by his relationship with Felicity. Outside of the first episode, has Ray had any interactions with any other regular characters?

 

And it's a big difference between how they introduced Ray versus how they introduced Barry. No question that Barry had a lot of shipper backlash, but he also had enough interesting interactions with the team to define him quickly as more than, "interrupting love interest." Didn't you feel like you knew as much as about Barry in those two episodes as you do about Ray in sixteen episodes? Once again, supporting my theory that most of the creative talent went over to The Flash. 

[lemotomato]

So from what I can tell, they're trying to tell too many different stories with 50 Shades (none of which seem to be working).

 

Firstly, they're trying to inject angst into Oliver/Felicity, and play up Oliver's bad decisionmaking against Ray doing everything that pleases Felicity. They've given Ray all of Oliver's traits but none of his flaws (he has the flaw of being a creepy stalker with no understanding of personal boundaries instead), played up those traits to Felicity, and have had her actively compare the two. So all of that is typical, 'girl is dating a guy when she really wants a different guy'. Your usual romantic melodrama pap, for which I have no time whatsoever.

 

But they're also using Felicity to force fans to see Ray as a viable, rootable character. If she likes him, he must be great, right? If she kisses him, he must be super great. And if she fucks him? Well, isn't he just triple awesome? She's been propping him up and calling for viewers to accept him all season. And then, slightly different, but the writers apparently want fans to invest in a potential Atom show, and are setting Ray up to be the hero of such a show, so they are asking fans to believe in him as a superhero, without much evidence that he's worked for it like the supposed hero of the show.

 

These stories are not compatible. You cannot present someone as a romantic mistake while also saying that viewers should like the guy because Felicity does. It's bound to just leave things in a confused, incoherent mess, with fans not knowing whether they're supposed to root for Ray as a potential hero, or boo him as a potential threat to Oliver/Felicity.

 

I'm bitter because their tactic of using Felicity's acceptance of Ray to make him popular is working. You should've seen the fawning over Ray in the Olicty tag on tumblr after 3x15. How wonderful he is for putting Felicity first, for listening to everything she tells him to do, for telling her everything she wants to hear. Why, she would be crazy to walk away from such an epitome of perfect manhood. In their rush to be thankful to Ray for making Felicity happy, everyone ignores the skeevy things he did before-- tricking Felicity into helping him hack into QC to steal information and undermine Oliver's bid for the company, buying the store she works at after she turns down his job offer, walking around half naked at work. Because it's been pointed out over and over-- if Felicity doesn't think any of that is inappropriate, then we should all accept it too. So that's what everyone (except for some people on this board) is doing. 

 

I'm super bitter that the rest of the season looks to be more building up Ray as a hero, while Oliver keeps making the same stupid mistakes and learns nothing, and more bad stuff keeps happening to him. Not that he has anything left to lose, at this point. Even if he doesn't take Ra's job offer, I don't know why he would go back to Starling City, since no one wants or needs him there anyway (except Diggle). Ray, on the other hand has everything-- a successful company, a superhero supersuit, and the title of Felicity Smoak's boyfriend. I wonder if there's going to be a scene where Oliver gets drunk and flings a glass at Ray, yelling at him for stealing his life. 

[tv echo]

Part of the problem is that Ray Palmer's appearances weren't naturally integrated into the regular Arrow show.  Barry Allen's appearances on Arrow and Firestorm's appearances on The Flash were organically part of the main plots of these shows.  However, Ray's appearances comprise a completely separate story that seemed to be on a different show and spliced into episodes of Arrow.  Plus the more light-hearted tone of Ray's scenes was in jarring contrast to the much darker tone of Arrow this season.  In the past, Felicity has been used to add a lighter, more humorous tone to scenes, but it was done in small bits and integrated seamlessly into the Arrow story.

Edited February 28, 2015 by tv echo

[MadMouse]

Not sure about Superman. But I feel like they've had to have watched Chuck, I mean they copied the storyline almost to a tee - a towel scene and everything. Only 2 major differences are BR had a wife not a fiancee (altho in an interview BR said Anna was his wife, so even he's lil confused by the overlapping plots) &

he turns out to be evil/bad, which they can't do in this one since he supposed to be the ATOM.

.  At least on Chuck, they did let him interact with other characters & his slight off charisma/charm played off better with those characters & plot than they do on Arrow.

Since Arrow and Chuck are following the standard Hero's journey template its not shocking how similar things seem. But I'm right with you on the towel scene I did a double take when it happened. I admit I was worried when he cast since I thought he was dreadful in everything I've seen in him. But he surprised me, the awkwardness and goofball of Ray plays to his strengths as an actor. Its just when he's asked to show romantic interest in someone or anger that he falls flat as an actor to me.

 

Yeah, Shaw (BR's character on Chuck) felt like more of a well-rounded character because he had relationships with other characters. They really don't do him (or the spinoff) any favors by having him completely defined by his relationship with Felicity. Outside of the first episode, has Ray had any interactions with any other regular characters?

 

And it's a big difference between how they introduced Ray versus how they introduced Barry. No question that Barry had a lot of shipper backlash, but he also had enough interesting interactions with the team to define him quickly as more than, "interrupting love interest." Didn't you feel like you knew as much as about Barry in those two episodes as you do about Ray in sixteen episodes? Once again, supporting my theory that most of the creative talent went over to The Flash. 

 

Ray wasn't supposed to be a character but a pseudo Oliver. His purpose is to make the audience through Felicity eyes question everything about Oliver. All the choices he makes and how he acts are deliberately different from Oliver. Its no coincidence they have Oliver working with Malcolm and the offer from Ras during this. Ray is supposed to represent what people think a hero should be, not making deals with devil. Again not a coincidence they cast a former Superman in this role. At the same time Oliver will fall into darkness more. Its all being set up for Oliver realizing he can have a life outside being the Arrow and everyone accepting that in this life you have to some dark things for the right reasons. 

[Genki]

Ray wasn't supposed to be a character but a pseudo Oliver. His purpose is to make the audience through Felicity eyes question everything about Oliver. All the choices he makes and how he acts are deliberately different from Oliver. Its no coincidence they have Oliver working with Malcolm and the offer from Ras during this. Ray is supposed to represent what people think a hero should be, not making deals with devil. Again not a coincidence they cast a former Superman in this role. At the same time Oliver will fall into darkness more. Its all being set up for Oliver realizing he can have a life outside being the Arrow and everyone accepting that in this life you have to some dark things for the right reasons. 

 

The problem with this is Ray's ,hero  journey has been pretty cruisey and quick, while Oliver's has been soul crushing and devastating, and he is still on it. All comparisons are void for me. 

 

6 months to get over the dead finance get a working prototype and a new girl (through stalking and inappropriate conduct) compared to 5 years in hell, death of parents, friends and lovers, plus terrorist attacks and failure, so much failure. Even Ray's first flight was successful.

 

For me a Oliver is more heroic (and crazy) because he keeps going time after time, when others would have probably given up. Ray hasn't truly be tested but I'm sure, when it happens, he will be a complete success because right now he is the male equivalent of a Mary Sue.

[kismet]

Ray, on the other hand has everything-- a successful company, a superhero supersuit, and the title of Felicity Smoak's boyfriend. I wonder if there's going to be a scene where Oliver gets drunk and flings a glass at Ray, yelling at him for stealing his life. 

That would be hilarious to see!! I would love to watch the creativity come to a halt and watch them replay the same scene. Shame MS wont be sharing scenes, I can just imagine her face during all the awkward/inappropriate eye stares. LL should then bang a plate or something & stamper off yelling that shes really the one everyone is stealing from. Arrow- the temper tantrum coming to a screen near you.

 

I dont agree with 100% of your earlier portion of your post, but I do get that a lot of what Ray did when taken out of context can be seen as creepy or crossing a line. It does annoy me that they've been so lax about really explaining and almost justifying his boundary pushing as ok under the rom-com defense (weak defense & it doesnt hold up). Just admit maybe they could have written it better or have RP acknowledge a lil that he's pushing the line. A little oops moment of self-reflection. I do love his goofball side & it is his strength. But even when he's supposed to be good, he always gives me this feeling that I shouldn't really trust him, that he can & will easily turn on me. I don't know what it is. And it has nothing to do with my preferring Felicity to be with somebody else as MG said in his tumblr. I just don't trust him and I can't pinpoint what it is. Perhaps there's something slick in the way BR plays his swagger. So I guess Im sorta bitter that I was supposed to be given this Perfect Hero for Felicity to fall for & OQ to fail in comparison - but instead Im left with a boundary pushing "perfect" hero, that I dont trust. He's the "perfect" hero on paper, and yet Im waiting for him to turn evil even though Im 99% sure that wont happen (which sorta bums me out, cuz I like evil BR).

Edited February 28, 2015 by kismet

[catrox14]

I have no idea why the showrunners think denigrating Oliver and Felicity is necessary to introduce the Atom. Did they have such little faith in the character of the Atom to not sell him on his own merits as his own show? Its the same bullshit propping of a character at another better character's expense. 

 

They could have done Oliver's exact same journey to working with  Malcolm without having Ray exist at all.  Felicity could still be at odds with Oliver.  The only difference is that Felicity would still be working at the store instead of Palmer Tech.  There is quite literally nothing that Ray adds to Arrow but a completely unworthy and inapt comparison with Oliver.  And it makes Felicity seem like she is more interested in being the love bunny for a hero than being the active hero she was alongside Oliver. It's almost like they've turned Felicity into a cape chaser more than a hero in her own right and loving Oliver for who Oliver is after knowing him intimately (other than sex) for 2 years or so

 

And if they show had better writers they could have written Felicity to be expressing to the audience that she was solely interested in helping Ray build the suit and left out the sex with him...and better yet leave out the scene where fucking Ray is falling apart because he's obsessive compulsive and sex with Felicity apparently cured his engineer's block.

Edited February 28, 2015 by catrox14

[dtissagirl]

It's not just Felicity. I thought she would be the one to break the mold, but lol, I was young and stupid 6 months ago.

They've done it over and over, focusing the women's storylines in their love lives rather than other aspects of their development. Laurel in S1, Sara in S2, Felicity in S3. And the worst part for me is they only ever tell the romance story from the male characters' POV, which ends up being jarring, because the ladies are seldom able to show their motivation.

Laurel was pretty much disputed between Tommy and Oliver. They talked amongst themselves about her several times, and hid gigantic secrets from her, and she was never given the opportunity to make an honest choice. The narrative itself didn't let her know she was purposefully kept out of things. Hell, to this day she doesn't know Tommy saw her having sex with Oliver.

Sara was a multi-purpose plot driven romantic partner. The relationship was very little about herself [was she rebounding from Nyssa? Was she acting out against Laurel? Was she passing the time? Was she in love with Oliver? We can guess, but the text never really gave her any opportunity to express her thoughts and feelings], but more about jumpstarting Laurel's downward spiral + killing Laurel/Oliver, stalling Felicity/Oliver, and setting up the I Love You gotcha! in the finale.

And now it's Felicity's time in the Love Interest seat, and apparently when you're in that seat, your character is only ever used to develop other characters' storyline. I mean, Palmer has legit zero character conflict, and still this entire thing is about him first and foremost. Felicity is the vehicle, not the driver.

I think it goes beyond these writers being shitty at romance -- I think this is what they think the women demo want in terms of romance, which: LOL NO. But Guggenheim asking "what more do you want for Felicity" on Tumblr makes me believe this is it. He legit doesn't think there could be more, because he's ultimately incapable of writing romance from a lady character's POV.

Edited February 28, 2015 by dancingnancy

[KirkB]

The weirdest thing about Ray is they set him up in the beginning as a rival for Oliver, in business, in Felicity's affections, even in vigilantism, and then proceeded to give the two of them a grand total of ONE scene together. Ray appears. makes Oliver look like a fool in front of his own board, Oliver shrugs and walks away and that is literally the last of their interaction. From then in Ray only has scenes with Felicity. At this point more people in the gang have met Ra's al Ghul than Ray.

Edited February 28, 2015 by KirkB

[benteen]

I really don't think they'll allow us to see why Oliver is a good hero at all, especially in comparison to Ray. Ray will fail, pick himself up and do better. Oliver will fail, destroy all relationships in his life and become hated, and while they're at it allow someone else close to him to die. Ray will be a 'good hero', Oliver is the asswipe who complicates everyone's life.

Oliver isn't allowed to learn from his mistakes so he'll keep making them. I believe Oliver is meant to learn from Ray, but at this point I just want Ray off my screen. If Oliver isn't allowed to learn that secrets are never good, team Arrow should always be consulted and protecting others by pushing them away or making unilateral decisions isn't good - all of which happened in season 1&2 - , then I don't particularly want him to learn from Ray. They've more than regressed him, they've made him outright stupid.

 

Yeah, I'm expecting them to kill off another person that Oliver loves because it's the only way the writers can create drama and motivate him.  I call it The Jack Bauer Syndrome.  Oliver is going to have a whole graveyard full of family and loved ones by the end of Season 3.

 

And don't forget, we still have Oliver has a long lost son storyline waiting in the background.  So we'll be getting more angst when this is all over.  I doubt they would kill the kid but I'm sure the babymama will end up getting killed, giving Oliver more angst.

 

Oliver doesn't appear to learn from his mistakes and it's getting worse.  As I said, this show changes its characters personalities week-after-week to fit the script.  Roy's changing opinion of Malcolm is proof of that.  That's why the writing is so bad.

 

People on Twitter are talking about how wonderful Ray is?  So they're ignoring the stalkerish and manipulative behavior?  Ignoring him pursuing a relationship with Felicity when his wife has been dead for only a few months?  It doesn't help because the writers try to write this off as cute and have Felicity basically accept Ray's behavior.

[lemotomato]

People on Twitter are talking about how wonderful Ray is?  So they're ignoring the stalkerish and manipulative behavior?  Ignoring him pursuing a relationship with Felicity when his wife has been dead for only a few months?  It doesn't help because the writers try to write this off as cute and have Felicity basically accept Ray's behavior.

Tumblr, youtube comments... Look at how sweet he is to her! Ray's great because Felicity says so! Same thing happened with Laurel. They have a couple of bonding moments, Felicity gives her encouragement about being a vigilante, and suddenly everyone's going on and on about the great Laurel/Felicity friendship and criticism of the Black Canary storyline disappears. 

[catrox14]

Tumblr, youtube comments... Look at how sweet he is to her! Ray's great because Felicity says so! Same thing happened with Laurel. They have a couple of bonding moments, Felicity gives her encouragement about being a vigilante, and suddenly everyone's going on and on about the great Laurel/Felicity friendship and criticism of the Black Canary storyline disappears. 

 

That just reminds me that the show doesn't seem to know how to write for Felicity anymore. 

 

I tend to think they are so terrified of the "because comics" crowd and the lingering GA/BC relationship that looms because comics, that they are trying to have it all.  They want to tease Olicity and keep Lauriver in their back pocket to appease "because comics" and then stave off having either relationshp because neither will please most everyone. 

 

In the meanwhile they use Felicity to prop ERRYONE because they know she's likeable and probably the 2nd most popular character on the show after Oliver and maybe even most popular, so they can't remove her without giving her something else but they don't want that something else to be too much like her role with Team Arrow then the Team Arrow crowd revolts.  So instead they giver her the love interest and sort of helper to the character that they seem to like more than Oliver for reasons that I can't fathom.

 

And it's all making my head spin and /head desk.

 

tl;dr.....

 

Arrow: Season 3:

Edited February 28, 2015 by catrox14

[Danny Franks]

I really don't think they'll allow us to see why Oliver is a good hero at all, especially in comparison to Ray. Ray will fail, pick himself up and do better. Oliver will fail, destroy all relationships in his life and become hated, and while they're at it allow someone else close to him to die. Ray will be a 'good hero', Oliver is the asswipe who complicates everyone's life.

Oliver isn't allowed to learn from his mistakes so he'll keep making them. I believe Oliver is meant to learn from Ray, but at this point I just want Ray off my screen. If Oliver isn't allowed to learn that secrets are never good, team Arrow should always be consulted and protecting others by pushing them away or making unilateral decisions isn't good - all of which happened in season 1&2 - , then I don't particularly want him to learn from Ray. They've more than regressed him, they've made him outright stupid.

 

This is where things truly disconnect for me. The idea that Oliver, who has been doing this for years, is not as good at it as Ray, the newbie who gets everything he needs from the suit. It's barking mad to make your supposed hero look like a chump in that fashion.

 

I said a few weeks ago that the point of Ray should have been to show the dangers of being a vigilante, to show that it's not something that just anyone can do. He should have been earnest and well-meaning and driven, and he should have failed. Been beaten up or injured or killed, on his second or third go at taking down bad guys. He should be the cautionary tale that what Oliver does is not easy, and that it takes a special person to do it, night after night. The fact that the writers seem to want people to believe that Oliver, their eponymous hero, is not special or more worthy than anyone else, is just... the opposite of the story this show should be trying to tell.

 

Why don't they want to tell that story? I get that they want to make Oliver look like a selfish ass, for the romantic angst, and that's one thing. But making him look like all these sacrifices he's made, and continues to make, just aren't necessary? I mean, what the living fuck? Ray runs a company, Ray builds a suit, Ray has the right answers, Ray nails Felicity, Ray fights crime. He's better than Oliver. So why is Oliver the hero? These are the logical questions that arise from this storyline, and there are no answers to them.

 

Ray is a ridiculous character in a ridiculous story that shouldn't be getting told in a show that's about someone else.

[catrox14]

^^^^ Danny Franks, you have stated the problem perfectly.  If I could upvote repeatedly I would. 

 

/slow clap

[AyChihuahua]

Honestly, lemo, people are, by and large, stupid.  In the words of the great Agent K "A person is smart; people are dumb..."  They also have the memories of mayflies.

 

 

Its all being set up for Oliver realizing he can have a life outside being the Arrow and everyone accepting that in this life you have to some dark things for the right reasons.

By then, a lot of people are going to hate him, and hating the main character and thinking he's stupid is not a recipe for success.  A lot of people hated House (including me), but that guy was a hypercompetent genius.  Oliver is shortsighted, emotionally stunted, intellectually damaged, controlling, and hot-tempered.  Who wants to spend time each week on a guy like that?  I know the ratings haven't been hit yet, but I am fairly confident that they will be.

[benteen]

This is where things truly disconnect for me. The idea that Oliver, who has been doing this for years, is not as good at it as Ray, the newbie who gets everything he needs from the suit. It's barking mad to make your supposed hero look like a chump in that fashion.

 

I said a few weeks ago that the point of Ray should have been to show the dangers of being a vigilante, to show that it's not something that just anyone can do. He should have been earnest and well-meaning and driven, and he should have failed. Been beaten up or injured or killed, on his second or third go at taking down bad guys. He should be the cautionary tale that what Oliver does is not easy, and that it takes a special person to do it, night after night. The fact that the writers seem to want people to believe that Oliver, their eponymous hero, is not special or more worthy than anyone else, is just... the opposite of the story this show should be trying to tell.

 

Why don't they want to tell that story? I get that they want to make Oliver look like a selfish ass, for the romantic angst, and that's one thing. But making him look like all these sacrifices he's made, and continues to make, just aren't necessary? I mean, what the living fuck? Ray runs a company, Ray builds a suit, Ray has the right answers, Ray nails Felicity, Ray fights crime. He's better than Oliver. So why is Oliver the hero? These are the logical questions that arise from this storyline, and there are no answers to them.

 

Ray is a ridiculous character in a ridiculous story that shouldn't be getting told in a show that's about someone else.

 

Excellent post and you're right.  It all goes back to the instant-hero (and in some case villain) that they've been setting up.  Roy becomes a "hero" quickly.  Laurel becomes one quickly.  So does Roy but at least Oliver is the one training him.  Cupid becomes a master archer in just under six months.  So if it's that easy, Oliver's five years on the island and off were really just a waste of time.

[kismet]

It's not just Felicity. I thought she would be the one to break the mold, but lol, I was young and stupid 6 months ago.

They've done it over and over, focusing the women's storylines in their love lives rather than other aspects of their development. Laurel in S1, Sara in S2, Felicity in S3. And the worst part for me is they only ever tell the romance story from the male characters' POV, which ends up being jarring, because the ladies are seldom able to show their motivation.

Laurel was pretty much disputed between Tommy and Oliver. They talked amongst themselves about her several times, and hid gigantic secrets from her, and she was never given the opportunity to make an honest choice. The narrative itself didn't let her know she was purposefully kept out of things. Hell, to this day she doesn't know Tommy saw her having sex with Oliver.

Sara was a multi-purpose plot driven romantic partner. The relationship was very little about herself [was she rebounding from Nyssa? Was she acting out against Laurel? Was she passing the time? Was she in love with Oliver? We can guess, but the text never really gave her any opportunity to express her thoughts and feelings], but more about jumpstarting Laurel's downward spiral + killing Laurel/Oliver, stalling Felicity/Oliver, and setting up the I Love You gotcha! in the finale.

And now it's Felicity's time in the Love Interest seat, and apparently when you're in that seat, your character is only ever used to develop other characters' storyline. I mean, Palmer has legit zero character conflict, and still this entire thing is about him first and foremost. Felicity is the vehicle, not the driver.

I think it goes beyond these writers being shitty at romance -- I think this is what they think the women demo want in terms of romance, which: LOL NO. But Guggenheim asking "what more do you want for Felicity" on Tumblr makes me believe this is it. He legit doesn't think there could be more, because he's ultimately incapable of writing romance from a lady character's POV.

You verbalized so much of what I was thinking! Loved the other female points you mentioned. The show writes these strong females, but then when they put the spotlight on them, they seem unable to allow them to keep that strength. Its like once they become the character in their own story their power/strength as a female is diminished. Shado was kickass and then she was just some dumb pawn in a revenge plot. Moira was this great mastermind who's true alliances were always secret, turns out she was just hiding an affair. Couldn't it have been about more than just her sleeping with MM? LL was done so much disjustice on this show, there is not enough room in a post. Im frightened the same might happen for FS. As much as I am not a fan of the insta-canary/hero origin, because it seems rushed & unrealistic - I will take s3 LL over s2 LL anyday, at least she seems to have a purpose besides just being there to move plot points through the script. But they even ruined that with their asinine treatment of QL & LL lying scheme. They just don't know how to write females in the front of their narrative and not supporting it, which is frustrating & disheartening.

 

As a female, its bittering to believe that this is all they think I am looking for in romance from a show or real life. That I should be so happy that Felicity is finally getting a story line and she's getting some! Same thing with the other female character plots you mentioned. Felicity was my 2nd favorite character on the show since s1, heck sometimes my 1st until this season where she's become so less of the character and less face it the woman that she had been written for 2 seasons. This was the season I was promised Felicity was gonna get so much and on paper she did but she lost so much of the character that I had come to love, that I wonder if it was worth the cost. MG wants to believe that FS got it all this season with her crowning achievement getting laid by RP who promptly leaves to work on his suit. I mean if it was supposed to be about Felicity and not the suit, RP could have been seen coming back waking her up and telling her it worked end scene. But no, FS's achievements were not about FS they were about RP. Did anyone besides RP at RP industries acknowledge her importance? Did any RP moment not seem like some direct response to OQ's actions/words? FS went from a strong female character who spoke her mind to a whiny scorned lover that just yelled at OQ instead of talk to him - yea I get it she got rejected it hurt but it wasn't like OQ threw her to the curb... her reaction to his distance was just baffling. DId anyone acknowledge that FS took down her ex on her own? Yes others helped, but shes the one that stopped the virus & SINGd her ex to the ground. But did OQ say good job, no we got a nod. FS was supposed to come into her own this season, and there have been some good moments but it would have been nice for someone of the show to acknowledge it. In fact her big reward was being isolated for the main plot & TA. She was there for major scenes, but most of them came off as either her propping LL or OOC irrationally yelling. Her logic & reasons were generally sound, but she no longer articulated in the calm/cool/intelligent manner she had shown in s1, 2 & crossovers. This head up his colon is who OQ has been for years, this damaged man was not that different from the man she bought the fern for. He's still struggling with a lot, the old FS used to understand that or at least help him understand hes currently lost because his head is stuck up his a$$. So yea, I buy her frustration but her reaction just seems so OOC. Do I think FS should be a doormat and just wait around for him to come around? No, but thats not what she achieved this season, and I hate them trying to make me believe otherwise. She became a placemat for whatever story they needed to sell. Nothing about this season spoke to me as a female journey to achievement & success. She just got shiny things (fancy title, new boy, new clothes) to hide that she really had no plot of her own this season. But yeah MG I feel completely satisfied knowing that she got laid. That was all I was looking for.

[dtissagirl]

Well, this new Tumblr answer only confirms to me again that Guggenheim really only thinks of Felicity as Love Interest:

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/112341832844/before-the-season-started-you-said-that-felicitys

teamarrow25 asked:

Before the season started you said that Felicity's identity journey was whether or not she was only Oliver's crush object or did she exist outside the foundry? While a good idea in theory, all you've done this season with Felicity is to make her Ray's crush object also. Felicity deserves so much more than to just be a love interest. She should have been the one to build/use the ATOM suit, so that she could have been the center of her own story. She's more of a crush object now than in S1/S2.

I’m sorry you feel that way. You have to admit, though, that by pursuing a romance with Ray, she’s making a decision to not just stay in the lair and pine for Oliver. SHE initiated with Ray in 3x15. Yes, it’s romantic, but it’s not passive. She made an active choice.

What he doesn't seem to get is even if Felicity started it, it ended up being about Palmer finally figuring out how to finish the ATOM suit. It was about *his* hero's journey, not about hers. Edited February 28, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Sakura12]

This is where things truly disconnect for me. The idea that Oliver, who has been doing this for years, is not as good at it as Ray, the newbie who gets everything he needs from the suit. It's barking mad to make your supposed hero look like a chump in that fashion.

 

I said a few weeks ago that the point of Ray should have been to show the dangers of being a vigilante, to show that it's not something that just anyone can do. He should have been earnest and well-meaning and driven, and he should have failed. Been beaten up or injured or killed, on his second or third go at taking down bad guys. He should be the cautionary tale that what Oliver does is not easy, and that it takes a special person to do it, night after night. The fact that the writers seem to want people to believe that Oliver, their eponymous hero, is not special or more worthy than anyone else, is just... the opposite of the story this show should be trying to tell.

 

Why don't they want to tell that story? I get that they want to make Oliver look like a selfish ass, for the romantic angst, and that's one thing. But making him look like all these sacrifices he's made, and continues to make, just aren't necessary? I mean, what the living fuck? Ray runs a company, Ray builds a suit, Ray has the right answers, Ray nails Felicity, Ray fights crime. He's better than Oliver. So why is Oliver the hero? These are the logical questions that arise from this storyline, and there are no answers to them.

 

Ray is a ridiculous character in a ridiculous story that shouldn't be getting told in a show that's about someone else.

 

That's exactly what I was noticing with all these insta-heroes. Why are they making their hero look like a loser? He's still working towards getting his hero name after putting blood, sweat and tears into to it for 7 years, while Ray and Laurel put in maybe a few months of work and they instantly get their hero name. Why should we bother following Oliver anymore? He's obviously a lazy fool that can't get his act together. Any idiot can become a hero the universe these EP's have made.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Sakura12

[Guest]

Well, this new Tumblr answer only confirms to me again that Guggenheim really only thinks of Felicity as Love Interest:

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/112341832844/before-the-season-started-you-said-that-felicitys

What he doesn't seem to get is even if Felicity started it, it ended up being about Palmer finally figuring out how to finish the ATOM suit. It was about *his* hero's journey, not about hers.

 

Omg he is absolutely clueless. Just when I think he can't get any worse, he proves me wrong. Wow. Felicity is just a love interest this season, sadly. She's just swapped the lair and Oliver for PT and Ray. Yeah, that's a really great active choice. Thumbs up. NOT.

 

And how sickening is it in a season where the running theme is identity, Felicity's 'identity' apparently revolves around her choice of men. Ugh. Make it stop. 

 

I'm so glad I quit this show. Now I just have to wean myself off these boards so I can stop reading things that piss me off. Yikes.

That's exactly what I was noticing with all these insta-heroes. Why are they making their hero look like a loser? He's still working towards getting his hero name after putting blood, sweat and tears into to it for 7 years, while Ray and Laurel put in maybe a few months of work and they instantly get their hero name. Why should we bother following Oliver anymore? He's obviously a lazy fool that can't get his act together. Any idiot can become a hero the universe these EP's have made.

 

This is my main problem with this season. They're undermining Oliver's own journey. I've never known a show to treat its protagonist like absolute shit before. 

[NumberCruncher]

I'm so glad I quit this show. Now I just have to wean myself off these boards so I can stop reading things that piss me off. Yikes.

Nah, you should still hang out with me and point fingers at the dumbassery.

[DrSpaceman10]

What he doesn't seem to get is even if Felicity started it, it ended up being about Palmer finally figuring out how to finish the ATOM suit. It was about *his* hero's journey, not about hers.

 

How involved was Felicity in building the ATOM suit even? To me it seemed like all she did was give Ray some kind of chip that helped make the suit work, and she reminded him to eat and shower (ugh), but that was it. Maybe there's more coming up, but she so far she's really only been involved in the ATOM project as a love interest to Ray. 

[Password]

You know at the beginning of season 3 I was hoping to use Ray as a means to get to know Felicity more. She said she wanted more out of life, right now she's just swapped out a vigilante with a future vigilante.

Do you think they'll actually explore what a life with Ray would mean? Friends? Dinner parties? New hobbies? A LIFE?

[Starfish35]

I think that was a bad choice of storyline by the questioner. I get the point, and agree with it, that Felicity should have her own storyline beyond being a love interest for superheroes. But not building the ATOM suit. That is Ray's thing. Felicity shouldn't have to take storylines from other characters to have her own storyline.

I don't know why it's so hard to conceive of a storyline for Felicity that is for her, and has nothing to do with being a love interest.

[Password]

I mean we shouldn't be surprised when Felicity's identity question was "Am I Oliver's crush?" but I still am. I would've settled for "Is my life in the lair or do I have one outside too?" In this way she can ask more than just who's LI she is. But hey. Love is important. The love of a hero is very important.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Limbo

[Shanna]

I thought the whole reason felicity was hired was to help with the stupid suit. Not to wear it because that would be stupid, but to help build it with her expertise. I think they have one tiny nod to that and then dropped it. Why else was ray stalking her? But if you listen to mg, it seems like she was only needed to be a slam piece who cleared rays head so he could finish. I find that deeply insulting to feleciity as a character in this show.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Shanna

[DrSpaceman10]

I think that was a bad choice of storyline by the questioner. I get the point, and agree with it, that Felicity should have her own storyline beyond being a love interest for superheroes. But not building the ATOM suit. That is Ray's thing. Felicity shouldn't have to take storylines from other characters to have her own storyline.

I don't know why it's so hard to conceive of a storyline for Felicity that is for her, and has nothing to do with being a love interest.

 

Felicity could have come up with the idea for the ATOM suit and even worked on it with Ray instead of just being his one-woman support system. That way they set up their spin-off and Felicity gets a storyline. I think someone on this board even suggested that. At this point I'd take pretty much any storyline for Felicity aside from "which superhero's crush object am I?".

 

The fact that MG thinks it's okay for Felicity to just be a love interest really says a lot.

[Password]

Nah, you should still hang out with me and point fingers at the dumbassery.

That's pretty much what I'm doing. But after watching that OG Team Arrow video, the nostalgia has made me rethink snark and accept quitting the show.

[Starfish35]

Felicity could have come up with the idea for the ATOM suit and even worked on it with Ray instead of just being his one-woman support system. That way they set up their spin-off and Felicity gets a storyline. I think someone on this board even suggested that. At this point I'd take pretty much any storyline for Felicity aside from "which superhero's crush object am I?".

That's not what the questioner said though. They said "She should have been the one to build/use the ATOM suit." Which I don't agree with. I don't even think she should have been the one to come up with the idea. Worked more with Ray on it? Sure absolutely. But I still think they should be able to come with stories for her that don't involve taking stories from someone else. That was a complaint a lot of us had about Laurel, that her stories tended to be taken from other characters and given to her to give her something to do. I don't think it's any better for that to be done for Felicity.

As much as I don't like that they've spent all this time doing an ATOM origin story on Arrow, or that they've used Felicity as a prop for that story, the ATOM story still is Ray Palmer's. I don't think it fixes things to take the ATOM story away from Ray and give it to Felicity.

[dtissagirl]

I mentioned in the Felicity thread awhile ago that I wished she were building the suit for herself, but really, it could have been anything that gave her a story. Work at QC conflicting with her Team Arrow work. Maybe an actual project she was heading, that would end up helping Team Arrow, but making it hard for her to manage her time. Or building some tech for Oliver/Roy/Dig. If they wanted her to get a life out of the lair, they could have made better use of her assistant, or have her work with Quentin as a cyber-security consultant.

But Palmer should have been the second banana in her storyline, instead of Felicity being his fluffer.

[Chaser]

I've been stewing on MG responses about Felicity and Willa/Katie getting their due. And all the people saying too much time is spent on Felicity. IMO its BS.

I fully believe some people write in and expression that opinion. But MG is still using Felicity to sell the show and the other characters. Atom is getting a big storyline which means that Felicity is still going to get a lot of screentime. They aren't decreasing her screentime to make way for Thea and Laurel. And Thea has been on the backburner till recently.

MG just refuses to acknowledge how they are using her.

[Orion]

I'm really starting to think that Guggenheim's, "what more do you want?" response to the one person's question was a legitimate question on his part. I don't think he has any idea what to do with characters without comic destinies for him to follow. The same for Diggle that he's all happy he's giving Diggle a ring, a wedding ring, like that is real agency in a superhero story.

Technically Palmer didn't design the suit, QC did, that's why he was determined to buy the company, for the design. Felicity could have come up with the design, they could even have had her working on it in their precious 2.5 comics, as a response to Oliver and Diggle being no match for Slade's army. Palmer could have gotten word about a suit being designed by Felicity and that's why he was so determined to hire her and QC could still have been needed for applied sciences. Than spend the first half of the season having him trying to convince her that he can make her design a reality and that he's the one to wear it because of Anna. Meanwhile Sara's death makes Felicity more determined to get her designed made and Oliver is so busy dealing with the LOA he won't listen to her about it. So Felicity relents and team up with Palmer to get the suit made.

Agency for all. And the only thing changed is some nameless employee of QC doesn't come up the design for the suit.

[statsgirl]

I'm really starting to think that Guggenheim's, "what more do you want?" response to the one person's question was a legitimate question on his part. I don't think he has any idea what to do with characters without comic destinies for him to follow. The same for Diggle that he's all happy he's giving Diggle a ring, a wedding ring, like that is real agency in a superhero story.

Then that's what Kresiburg and Berlanti should be doing. Someone, anyone, on these shows should be thinking behind copying from the comic books or the Batman and Iron Man movies.

 

I'm okay with Ray designing the suit itself, he's got the science degrees and the obsession to do it. We saw that Felicity got the destroyed tech back after they blew up the Applied Sciences division and she's the one Ray went to in The Return to fix the problem he was having with the processor. I wish they had shown more of Felicity being in charge of whatever at PT but at least Ray gave her more to do than Oliver did as his EA.

 

I think they asked Felicity to do too many different things this season. For Oliver, she was her usual IT girl and also a major part of this year's relationship, and also part of the moral authority of the team along with Diggle.  With Barry on The Flash, she was the glue that helped put the team together.  With Ray, she was his tech VP, his suit-helper and a lover interest. With everything going on in the show, there wasn't enough time with her to flesh out all these roles to we were left to make assumptions..

[NoWayOut]

I was hopeful that Felicity was going to have more to do when she was given her own office but it turns out it was so Ray could have a place other than her apartment to storm into. Most of Felicity's office scenes are set up to have Ray walk in rather than showing her doing anything important. I'd be happy with a scene of her working on a new program that they can later reference during a mission. Perhaps show her scouting out locations for a new foundry and making sure it's equipped with top notch security since the current one apparently has a neon sign on the door welcoming everyone in.