Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[pootlus]

The pics posted of Laurel as BC in the spoiler thread have made me realise that my hatred of the show killing off Sara so that Laurel can have her completely unearned hero story is not diminishing - it's growing with every episode.  She's never going to not look ridiculous - she looks like a kid dressing up in random crap they found in a trunk in the attic.

 

I feel like I need to completely cold turkey the stupid show that Arrow has become just so that I can stop raging about how stupid and unfair this plotline is.  I can't even get hatred up for the horrible angst they have decided to replace the light and fun Olicity with, or that Diggle has been relegated to the black butler/chauffeur, or that Ray is a mountain of bleh who's taking screen time away from the person I got into the show because - Oliver.

 

Damn I feel sorry for Amell, he works so hard at promoting the show and it's just gone to shit.

[Menrva]

This was originally in the Spoiler thread but it didn't really belong there so I moved it here.

 

Someone on this forum a while ago said that Roy's mask made him look like a Ninja Turtle and now every time I see him in his costume, I think "Cowabunga, dudes!" And the buckles! Jesus, Mary and Joseph, what is the deal with all the freaking buckles? Was there some kind of going out of business sale at the buckle factory? I don't mean to keep harping on it, but it's the most illogical, unnecessary and unattractive embellishment on a costume I've ever seen. They don't even do anything. And wouldn't they catch on stuff? I could understand zippers or lacing even, although that's pushing it. Oliver's and Sara's costumes are so understated and streamlined. And Sara looked so menacing with her eye area blacked out under the mask; Laurel just looks like Barbie Canary.

 

Is it even worth complaining to MG about how unhappy I am with the direction the show has taken? Or will I just be ignored as a hater? I've never been so irritated by a show before. I wish I could just walk away, but somehow I keep coming back. Ugh.

[statsgirl]

I don't know if you'll get ignored as a hater if you complain, but I suspect you'll get ignored if you don't.

 

I'm waiting till this episodes airs so that he doesn't dismiss me for jumping to conclusions.  Then Guggenheim, Kreisberg and Berlanti will be hearing from me.

[Guest]

I'd just like to know why they keep shitting on the main hero of this show to build everyone else up around him. Introducing a character with powers totally undermines Oliver's abilities and what makes him special. Why should Oliver sacrifice so much if Ray can just fly out there with his dumb suit and fix everything?

 

One of the main reasons I became invested in this show was because Oliver overcame so much to eventually become a hero. He doesn't have superpowers or a fancy Iron-man rip-off suit but he earned every single one of his skills through hard graft, personal sacrifice and endurance. I'd like the show to start remembering that because I just get more frustrated and angry at the other characters the longer it doesn't.

[moviewhore]

My heart breaks for SA with the way this show is going into the shitter.  I remember how crushed he was when he was passed over for the role of Spartacus in favor of Liam McIntyre.  He worked his ass off.  Then Arrow comes along and it's a dream job.  Now his character is reduced to a walk on in favor of Queen Laurel with his journey disregarded.  Add to that the destruction of Team Arrow's fantastic dynamic, the way Sara's death was an non-issue with the news of it being kept a secret, the way Thea's mind and agency were taken away by her own damn father, Diggie not doing much and Roy on the show-I feel sorry for Routh too-dude was fucked out of playing Supes a second time and has to settle for Atom.  And to top it off the showrunners are telling the viewers it's your problem if you hate the show and you don't get our vision.  What horseshit.  It's clear that you guys would just love to see Laurel be the only one on the show as Canary and having every other character kiss her ass with the endless propping.  You would just love to rename it Canary with SA as a guest star because, well, his story isn't what we want to tell anymore.  I'm already pissed off over the content of the show and that disrespect, that blowing off of the audience is disgusting.  I'm already dealing with the exact same thing on Sleepy Hollow.  It's too much to see this fossil of a great show that deserved respect. 

[Danny Franks]

I'd just like to know why they keep shitting on the main hero of this show to build everyone else up around him. Introducing a character with powers totally undermines Oliver's abilities and what makes him special. Why should Oliver sacrifice so much if Ray can just fly out there with his dumb suit and fix everything?

 

One of the main reasons I became invested in this show was because Oliver overcame so much to eventually become a hero. He doesn't have superpowers or a fancy Iron-man rip-off suit but he earned every single one of his skills through hard graft, personal sacrifice and endurance. I'd like the show to start remembering that because I just get more frustrated and angry at the other characters the longer it doesn't.

 

I always go to Joss Whedon when the idea of heroes failing is brought up. Joss has said that people want to see a hero fail. They want to see a hero kicked in the dirt and humiliated. Because then they get to see the hero get back up onto his or her feet, face their enemies head on, and win. A hero can fail, but he has to succeed. I'm not sure that 21 episodes of Oliver failing and then he pulls out a win right in the last few minutes of the season is quite what Joss would picture as a satisfying piece of drama.

 

There has to be more balance. Because otherwise you're just becoming a sadist by watching this poor schmuck just get beaten up, physically and emotionally.

[Shanna]

I honestly think mg just ignores all the fan feedback that doesn't say what he wants to hear because no way do I believe 95% of his hate mail was people who wanted laurel to be bc.

Honestly, they know felicity is popular. They sure as hell don't use laurel to try to prop up failing characters and sell spin offs.

[FurryFury]

I remember Laurel having some pretty vocal fans, few as they may be. Who knows, maybe they've just spammed him with their letters over and over. Or maybe he has interpreted fan outrage over the quality of Laurel's storyline in season 2 as "people who want her to become Black Canary". I wouldn't exactly be shocked.

[dtissagirl]

I feel like they wrote Oliver into a corner when they went out of their way to make him Batman-lite. He's too serious and too damaged, and often times more of a defeatist than a strategist. And he lives in a too gritty too dark world with very little humor -- and almost no humor coming *from* Oliver. And superpowers clash against all of that. The tone needs to have a healthy dose of self-depreciation for humans to overcome superpowers. And Arrow doesn't have that, and *Oliver* really doesn't have that.

All of my favorite versions of Green Arrow dealt with superpowers by making fun of it. I don't think Arrow is capable of doing that.

[quarks]

Publicly badmouthing a Hollywood production that you're currently part of is one of the best ways to end up unemployed in Hollywood.  

 

Once the show's over, it's a different story.

[AyChihuahua]

Again, there is a lot of space between bad-mouthing and loudly cheering.  He is loudly cheering every episode on both his FB and Twitter.  Other than maybe thinking the Laurel stuff is iffy, I have seen no evidence that he sees the multitude of problems with the show now.

[blixie]

I tried to watch tonight and realized I didn't care about...any of it.

[insubordination]

 

I tried to watch tonight and realized I didn't care about...any of it.

 

I feel disappointed in myself because I looked up the Slade scene and the Olicity scene on youtube. I'm supposed to be boycotting. I wasn't impressed with either scene. (SHADO! SHADO! and what seemed like a retcon).  I heard Laurel poured alcohol on Sara's grave. Fun times! (Seriously, what happened to fun times on this show?)

 

Annoyingly, I was reminded of the show when trying to do up the buckles on my shoes this morning, but then I realized that those buckles at least have a useful function.

Edited February 19, 2015 by insubordination

[icandigit]

Most shows I've seen address fan comments and complaints 'in show' and it's usually fun and light heart-ed. And you're like hee hee they heard us. In this show it's like they are trying to come for the audience for not liking their whack canary. They can keep coming for us if they want. Their piss poor product speaks for itself. Not that I can see the show half the time because of the lighting anyway.

Edited February 19, 2015 by icandigit

[dtissagirl]

Yeah. It shows such contempt for the part of the audience that doesn't agree with them, it's sad. Guggenheim is actually answering questions on Tumblr that criticize the story by dismissing them. It's a clear show of lack of respect for dissenting opinions. To me it says they're telling me [us] we're wrong for having opinions. It felt like every line of dialog about Sara and Laurel in the last few episodes existed not to advance the story, but to school the audience into what's what, and to tell disagreeing viewers to shut up about it already.

 

I wonder if their writers' assistants are reading this forum, really.

[kismet]

Yeah. It shows such contempt for the part of the audience that doesn't agree with them, it's sad. Guggenheim is actually answering questions on Tumblr that criticize the story by dismissing them. It's a clear show of lack of respect for dissenting opinions. To me it says they're telling me [us] we're wrong for having opinions. It felt like every line of dialog about Sara and Laurel in the last few episodes existed not to advance the story, but to school the audience into what's what, and to tell disagreeing viewers to shut up about it already.

 

I wonder if their writers' assistants are reading this forum, really.

Well if they're reading the forum, they should take some hints from the people who write here. There are some good plots, character developments & ideas that get tossed around. It would be nice to see some of that hit the screen & not just meta commentary. So if you're out there reading, take some notes.

[Ariah]

But Sleepy Hollow is trying to make up for the wrongs they did (at least that's how it looks to me). It's not like in Once Upon a Time (which I stopped watching) and their Regina fanfiction.

I'd like for Arrow to take the Sleepy Hollow route, but I'm afraid they've already too far gone on the Once Upon a Time road. They've lost their initial focus, grabbed their new shinny toys and went wild.

 

Some producers have hubris. Guggenheim has it - he does not believe he can be wrong. He's shocked when people do not react the way he thinks they will.

 

You know what? I am bitter about the show, because it made me actually actively hate a character. And not a villain, but one of the protagonists. I have an irrational hate of Laurel. There's now absolutely nothing the show can do to make me like her. She can become a mother theresa figure and save kittens from burning houses - I will still hate her. It's not logical, it's atavisitc, it's a primeaval, guttural reaction.

 

And I'm bitter about it, because I have thought of myself as a better person. But I am not.

 

Laurel Lance has jumped to the top of my hate-list, ahead of Barbara Kean, Regina and Katrina Crane.

[tv echo]

I'm losing interest in this show.  That makes me bitter.

[Guest]

Same. For most of this season I've felt nothing but dread every time the SPOILERS ONLY thread has been updated but when I checked yesterday I didn't even feel the need to read what had been posted. I think I've finally reached a level of apathy. I'm more interested in what people on these boards have to say than what the show is doing. I like reading theories and opinions. 

 

But the show itself is a mess and I can't make much sense of what's happening anymore. Every plot feels contrived. Characters feel OOC and they're using miscommunication as a way of creating problems rather than solve them.

 

I thought there was going to be a clear character arc for Oliver this season and I'm just not seeing it. He told Felicity that he can't be Oliver Queen and the Arrow but IMO he's done nothing but be both so far. He told Diggle he didn't want to die in the foundry. He's opened up to Thea and is committed to being her big brother in all the ways he should have been for the past two years. He seems to have realized that he's not a killer anymore. It feels like the only time he can't be Oliver Queen is in a romantic relationship with the woman he loves. I just don't get it. Am I missing something? 

[Sunshine]

I'm losing interest in this show.  That makes me bitter.

Same.  SA said they were blowing up the show in 3.18.  From my perspective, they did that in 3.01.  They took away/changed everything I cared about which was the relationships between Oliver, Felicity & Diggle.  I never really liked Sara but I couldn't believe they threw her out like garbage.  It sent a message (to me anyway) about how far they were willing to destroy everything to make a certain character relevant.  I still like O/F/D but they aren't really interacting in scenes anymore and they haven't given me anything else worth investing my time in.  The relationship I am enjoying the most this season is Oliver & Maseo in flashbacks.   

[Morrigan2575]

But Sleepy Hollow is trying to make up for the wrongs they did (at least that's how it looks to me). It's not like in Once Upon a Time (which I stopped watching) and their Regina fanfiction.

I'd like for Arrow to take the Sleepy Hollow route, but I'm afraid they've already too far gone on the Once Upon a Time road. They've lost their initial focus, grabbed their new shinny toys and went wild.

 

Sleepy Hollow is making changes because FOX stepped in and forced them to make changes.  From what I understand, FOX has stepped in 3 times now, the last forced re-shoots of the final 2 episodes.  They've also demanded a detailed plan for S3 and are (were?) withholding renewal until they see ratings/fan/media reaction to the finale two episodes of S2.

[newbie]

Yes, Angel, you are missing a good script and something that makes sense since December. And I am tired of it, too.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_uiU-QmbHs

Edited February 20, 2015 by newbie

[writersblock51]

I didn't know that about SH but I understand why it happened and am seeing the results now. I am back to enjoying the show more than I was in October, that's for sure.  Interesting!!!

 

I'm bitter because the showrunners, the network and DC know what the most popular pieces of the Arrow puzzle are and how they fit together best. There was plenty of hype and focus coming out of SDCC about that.  The introduction of Ra's generated a great deal of excitement and anticipation.

 

But in the quest to be - I don't even really know what the goal is - different? edgy? epic? game changing?  The show took those pieces and broke them away from each other, forcing them with other pieces (that don't fit) or leaving them on their own.............  the entire puzzle is now a mess, IMO. Few pieces are working. It's a big puzzle, too.

 

Criticism is deflected by MG, often in a childish and unprofessional manner. Yes, he's running the show under the vision that he and the other EPs (and network and DC) have in mind.   But are they all collectively so out of touch that they look solely at the demo and other rating metrics without understanding the sentiments being expressed across social media?

 

Is anyone is paying attention to the criticism (much of it is reasonable and constructive, too)?  If so, who?  Do they have enough influence to step in if necessary? 

 

I keep thinking Greg Berlanti or Geoff Johns will but so far, GB is busy with the Oscars and I have no idea when Geoff John sleeps. He's everywhere but on Arrow. 

 

That leaves the show in the hands of a writer who doesn't see the boundaries of stalking, finds joy in making the hero-titled character as miserable as possible (why does Oliver even bother returning to Starling City, anyway?), and would rather try to WOW us with superheroes who aren't named Oliver Queen or Arrow.  A writer who says he loves Diggle, Felicity and Thea but clearly prefers those characters who have a pre-2012 comic book counterpart.  A writer who has also admitted to LOVING riling fans up and ticking them off.

 

Who the hell wants to risk fans?  I get that the show is getting a 4th season and syndication. But how about a 5th? How about a strong legacy?  How about a show the steadily goes UP in ratings?

 

For all of my appreciation of comic books over most of my life, I've seen enough of Arrow to know that I do NOT want 'just a comic book version.'  MG (and the other EPs) have stated publicly that they are not bound by the comics.  But actions speak much louder than words and so yes, they have bound themselves by the comics.

 

Every time a new person (hero or villain) shows up on Arrow with metahuman powers, Oliver becomes less relevant.

 

I wish the show would remember that this has been established as Oliver's story, first and foremost. 

Edited February 20, 2015 by writersblock51

[dtissagirl]

I think the difference between Sleepy Hollow and Arrow is that SH was losing viewers and critics at a breakneck pace, on top of the fact that they sidelined all characters of color for the white characters. So there was a money problem as well as really bad publicity problem. On a network that a year ago was telling everyone who would listen that they were serious about diversity. And I can easily see FOX execs looking at the Empire ratings, and looking at SH whitewashing the entire storyline, and headslapping Goffman HARD.

 

Arrow's ratings have significantly risen after the Flash crossover: it was averaging 0.9 in the demo before 308, it's now averaging 1.1 post-crossover. And the show doesn't have a publicity problem. Also, the CW really doesn't care for what critics say. FOX has always cared.

Edited February 20, 2015 by dancingnancy

[newbie]

At the Moment I look at the show out of Habit. And that makes me bitter. I want to shout at the script writers. What do you want ???? it´s a complete mess.

 

No fun left... And no fun, watching it, too. Are they trying to make a show for self destructive emotionally disturbed bullies ?

 

I was really relieved that the last episode didn´t made me angry. But the old fun is gone, and nothing good hapens, instead the brought in a creepy Stalker with a strange suit. A super Heroine with unrestrained self-esteem. Who Needs most of the time to be rescued. 

 

Maybe I am wrong, maybe I should try some of Malcome Merlins dulling the mind pills. the same he gave to the Arrow. 

 

But I still remember Oliver Queen during  the 2 fist season. And he was never such a complete brainless Idiot.

[newbie]

And the new bad Boy is Ras al Ghul, the same bad boy who helped to save the City the last season with his nice followers.

 

And who tolerates that his sister got in love with another women and set this women free. And Oliver knows this all, why didnt he fly to nanda Parbat, tells Ras the Story and helps him to find Malcom Merlin ? Instead of lying to him.

 

Because lying is a habit for Oliver Queen and he is not used in telling the truth?

 

And Malcolm is now the trustworthy one, because he has the nowledge. Of what, how to be defeat by the league of assasins?

[Morrigan2575]

Daughter...Nyssa is Ra's' daughter.

[newbie]

Oliver Queen, the same Person, who tricked out Slade Wilson, convinced the loa this time not to kill, even earned Money with his cover Nightclub.

 

The only Killer without remorse in this game is MM, and even is this script a plot to confuse the viewers, it is going to long.

 

And if ist not. Which doctor remotes parts of Oliver Queens Brain ???? Or did he get too much concussions and a permanent brain damage?

Morrigan youre right but would it make a difference ?

[Morrigan2575]

Not at all, I think the show has relied on Ra's reputation among comic fans and people who have seen the Nolan movies to set him up as the Big Bad while not really doing anything the substantiate it.

 

In S2 Ra's was an unknown but reasonable threat.  He or possibly Nyssa sent assassins to track Sara down, threaten her family if she didn't return and even poisoned Laurel and kidnapped Dinah to get Sara back.  However after Nyssa released Sara, she was free, they were no longer a threat.  

 

In fact twice last season, Ra's and the LoA were used to support the "good" characters. In 208 Moira used Ra's as a weapon/threat/protection against Malcolm and in 323 the LoA showed up to help the people of Starling, Nyssa did it to get Sara back but still they were on Team Good in S2.

 

Now we're supposed to buy that the LoA is the ultimate evol instead of an extremely dangerous but Grey society as previously portrayed, without any real reason.  es, they threatened to kill SC innocents until Sara's killer was found but hell, if Oliver had let Nyssa kill MM in 304 none of this would have been an issue.  Even in 309, all Oliver had to do was turn MM over to the LoA and have Felicity track down and erase any potential copies of the video to protect Thea.

 

All the while, MM who is a legit threat/villain who organized almost all of the horrible events that have befallen Oliver and Starling City...is the "good" guy or victim or grey character.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[newbie]

Morrigan, do you think, the scriptwriters did not see the two first seasons and instead only reading the Comics ?

 

The whole thing makes no sense.

 

Merlin was never Grey... Ras was never only black..... and Olliver never that dumb. And that was before he was killed !!!

[Shanna]

I think the difference between Sleepy Hollow and Arrow is that SH was losing viewers and critics at a breakneck pace, on top of the fact that they sidelined all characters of color for the white characters. So there was a money problem as well as really bad publicity problem. On a network that a year ago was telling everyone who would listen that they were serious about diversity. And I can easily see FOX execs looking at the Empire ratings, and looking at SH whitewashing the entire storyline, and headslapping Goffman HARD.

Arrow's ratings have significantly risen after the Flash crossover: it was averaging 0.9 in the demo before 308, it's now averaging 1.1 post-crossover. And the show doesn't have a publicity problem. Also, the CW really doesn't care for what critics say. FOX has always cared.

Yeah, unless the ratings dip I don't think the network or showrunnwrs will care. Sometimes there is a delayed reaction though, so we may have to wait and see. I have skipped half the episodes since they came back from break and I am going to continue skipping ones I think will piss me off.

Not at all, I think the show has relied on Ra's reputation among comic fans and people who have seen the Nolan movies to set him up as the Big Bad while not really doing anything the substantiate it..

I don't read comics and I didn't watch the Nolan batman so Ra's just seems like a business person who wants to punish Sara's killer. He doesn't seem any worse on the show than Amanda Waller.

Happy to hear sleep hollow might be fixing problems! I saw Katrina looking kind of evil on a promo which gave me hope about going back and watching all the eps I've been skipping since the holidays.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Shanna

[Morrigan2575]

Morrigan, do you think, the scriptwriters did not see the two first seasons and instead only reading the Comics ?

The whole thing makes no sense.

Merlin was never Grey... Ras was never only black..... and Olliver never that dumb. And that was before he was killed !!!

 

 

I think, and many others have made this same comment, that the Arrow writers, are going backwards, they have an ending in mind and are trying to fill in the gaps.  Hey we want a really cool Ra's/Oliver showdown on a mountain so we can rip-off...err homage Batman again...how do we make that happen?

 

MG has pretty much admitted they do that.  The hallway fight scene between O/L was designed because they wanted a dramatic scene for Laurel and needed something to push her towards sobriety, so you have the utter stupidity of the Dinner for Hell created just to get to the dramatic fight scene.

 

As far as i can tell, they got Ra's Al Ghul for S3, probably have some great ending in mind for the final battle in 323 and are just writing everything backwards to get to that point.  At the same time they can't develop anything organically so they stall and spin their wheels in between the big episodes (Premiere, MSF and Finale).

Edited February 20, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[blixie]

I think some writers are responsive to criticism about storylines regardless of the ratings, (The Kings on Good Wife ended Kalinda's terrible awful no good story with her ex because it was universally panned and loathed), but that is the exception not the rule. If ratings are good and even growing, there is no way they would think, let's go back to the creative choices that gave us ratings not as good as this.

 

I do think Guggenheim/Berlanti/Kreisberg and most especially Stephen are pretty sensitive to negative fan response, especially after the late summer frenzy of Olicity fan spazzing, and they ate that up, so this is like a major bummer to hear how far off the mark they've landed with those same said fans. I think it bothers them the season is being rejected by that kind of passionate internet fan they've been courting so hard core, but their mostly convinced they've made the right choices and the ratings validate that more than the statistical minority of people who think the show is mess, and not enough professional tv critics feel strongly enough about S3 being a creative bust to lead to that conclusion either.

Edited February 20, 2015 by blixie

[tv echo]

I said it before, the CW and the EPs only care about attracting and keeping the male demo - and they think they'll do that by bringing in more DC Comics characters and focusing on actions/stunts.

[Shanna]

In all fairness, I cannot imagine what it would be like to try to deal with the widely varying opinions of fans of your show. I mean, you can look at general trends but if you happen to look at a site full of people who live laurel and hate felicity and nothing else you might get the wrong idea about the general public. And if you loe laurel, you might discount everyone who doesn't. So it's kind of a mess.

But that doesn't excuse all the shitty writing on literally every plot line. This working backwards thing is ok if the stuff you write still makes sense. Problem is, it doesn't. Nothing makes any damn sense right mow from the Malcolm responses, to Malcolm's plan, to Oliver's plan, to everything laurel. Felicity is not being written as a person, she exists right now solely to try to sell us on Brandon routh and Diggle is being completely ignore. Roy is backup for laurels dumbass canary.

Nothing makes sense! I know it's a comic book show but at a certain point the plots are so dumb I can't even handwave them.

[NumberCruncher]

I do think Guggenheim/Berlanti/Kreisberg and most especially Stephen are pretty sensitive to negative fan response, especially after the late summer frenzy of Olicity fan spazzing, and they ate that up, so this is like a major bummer to hear how far off the mark they've landed with those same said fans. I think it bothers them the season is being rejected by that kind of passionate internet fan they've been courting so hard core, but their mostly convinced they've made the right choices and the ratings validate that more than the statistical minority of people who think the show is mess, and not enough professional tv critics feel strongly enough about S3 being a creative bust to lead to that conclusion either.

I also think they're probably thrilled with the ratings, but I have to disagree that they're bummed out by how much the more passionate internet fanbase has rejected their storytelling. Frankly, I don't see any evidence that they care. If anything, Guggenheim has been especially condescending and dismissive of criticism by that faction. At the end of the day, they've found the storytelling mix they want (i.e. superheropalooza with little to no characterization with thin plotlines that make no sense and blatant reconning that the audience still eats up "because COMICS"). They can be as lazy as they want with actual plot just so long as they keep throwing random superheroes at us. It's a complete win as far as they're concerned, IMO. Personally, that's not enough for me (which is why I haven't even bothered watching after "The Climb") and frankly, it sounds like I haven't missed much. I still enjoy reading people's reaction to the trainwreck here though. :)

[writersblock51]

As someone who is NOT in the coveted male demo, I'm bitter that my viewing habits are so easily tossed out and dismissed.

 

I've been a part of the enthusiastic fan base that the EPs and Stephen Amell enjoy so much - and I would rather have a balanced show that includes stunts and heroics with other character development.  I think the Flash is getting it right.

 

I'm also disappointed that the focus on Arrow seems to be more about suiting up than embracing heroic characteristics.  We've discussed here, numerous times, that a hero is NOT made solely because of a costume. The EPs say that they agree with this then their hamster-like attention span is enthralled with the next suit.

 

As for the stunts this season?  Largely lackluster compared to S1 and especially S2.  I love the stunts on this show but have been pretty meh about it all so far.  Oliver jumping on the car and shooting in "The Return"? Cool. The fight with Slade and the Queens? Cool. But not blow-my-mind cool. The stunt work of the past has set a very high standard and, IMO, certainly deserved Emmy nomininations for such. 

 

But this year? No, not really. But if the demo is happy with it, my opinion doesn't mean squat anyway.

[Chaser]

I HATE the female/male demographic agruement. It's sexist and it's stereotyping.

[Shanna]

I HATE the female/male demographic agruement. It's sexist and it's stereotyping.

The thing is, you can still have characters in costumes and doing stunts while writing good characters who are emotionally consistent and plots that aren't stupid as hell. No 'demographics' argument will make your writing this season make sense.

I never get this whole dems thing honestly and it's so strange. Would you not rather have lots of viewers of both sexes? I think it's all just excuses for crap writing.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Shanna

[newbie]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rDJPax9vmbQ

[Velocity23]

Its funny since the female 18-34 demo is up from S2. Its almost on the same level as Vampire Diaries.

[statsgirl]

I'm not in the prized young male demo... and you know what?  It has no effect on buying habits other than for the boy toys like cars and sound systems.  In terms of car ads, the only ones I can remember are Matthew McConaughey for Lincoln and the Dodge Ram, and I doubt the young males who watch this show are going to get either. When it comes to ordinary ads, like fast food or home items, women have more buying power.

 

I got three other people into watching this show. Two quit this season, one over Laurel, and the third has moved to mocking it.  The CW needs to listen to me.

 

Bitter.

 

You know what? I am bitter about the show, because it made me actually actively hate a character. And not a villain, but one of the protagonists. I have an irrational hate of Laurel. There's now absolutely nothing the show can do to make me like her. She can become a mother theresa figure and save kittens from burning houses - I will still hate her. It's not logical, it's atavisitc, it's a primeaval, guttural reaction.

I didn't like Laurel before, the only person on the show I didn't like, but this season, between the use of Felicity to prop her and that even the lair isn't a Laurel-free zone any more, I'm actively hating her. After Canaries I decided that if I'm going to watch the  show, I have to mute or fast forward her scenes.  I get the impression that people think that now that Laurel is the BC, she's not hated any  more.  Wrong, it's only now that I really hate her.

 

 

Now we're supposed to buy that the LoA is the ultimate evol instead of an extremely dangerous but Grey society as previously portrayed, without any real reason.  es, they threatened to kill SC innocents until Sara's killer was found but hell, if Oliver had let Nyssa kill MM in 304 none of this would have been an issue.  Even in 309, all Oliver had to do was turn MM over to the LoA and have Felicity track down and erase any potential copies of the video to protect Thea.

Well, when  you put it like that.....

 

They relied far too much on the reputation Ra's brought from the comics and Batman, and didn't bother to make him consistent or even scary at first.

 

More even than before, this whole season has been creating a huge divide between viewers who want comics! and viewers who want a good show.

 

I do think Guggenheim/Berlanti/Kreisberg and most especially Stephen are pretty sensitive to negative fan response, especially after the late summer frenzy of Olicity fan spazzing, and they ate that up, so this is like a major bummer to hear how far off the mark they've landed with those same said fans. I think it bothers them the season is being rejected by that kind of passionate internet fan they've been courting so hard core, but their mostly convinced they've made the right choices and the ratings validate that more than the statistical minority of people who think the show is mess, and not enough professional tv critics feel strongly enough about S3 being a creative bust to lead to that conclusion either.

I think Stephen may feel that way.  But he has the least say, if any.  Kreisberg is off doing the Flash and doesn't see what's on Arrow, Berlanti is all about his new shows and the cool superhero costumes he took to the TCA, and Guggenheim thinks that any reaction is good, and that small crumbs like the Diggle and Felicity scenes in The Return will be enough to satisfy viewers.

 

At this point, the EPs don't care about the professional critics, they've done their jobs in the first two seasons to get the series noticed, and now they can move on to other ones.

Edited February 21, 2015 by statsgirl

[catrox14]

I am becoming increasingly bitter about Arrow not being about Oliver Queen's journey. If I wanted to watch Justice League lite I would do that.

I'm pissed off that Oliver 's traumatic experience of watching his father shoot himself to save Oliver and telling Oliver to make things right and then Oliver discovering the names hidden in the book, thus inspiring him to survive on the island was diminished by that fucking idiotic video left to Oliver. I do not understand why it was ever created or approved in he first place.

I am increasingly annoyed that Oliver is being painted as not that bright now. I am really pissed off that his role this season was marginalized to prop Laurel.

I just really hate that Arrow doesn't actually seem to be about the Arrow anymore:(.

[romantic idiot]

Its funny since the female 18-34 demo is up from S2. Its almost on the same level as Vampire Diaries.

Stephen Amell. Pretty much. His fame spread. But it is ironic since there is much less of him now. 

[kismet]

Its bittering that the EP & writers continue to want to do things that are "epic", "game-changer", "unprecedented" & "original" - they instead wind up with very redundant, trope, cliché, and rehashed stories/characters. It becomes very boring, even there major game-changing cliffhangers become weak. I mean who kills off the major character? Oh wait they didn't actually do that, or at least they floundered any momentum of excitement they could have mined from that. I wish they would spend more time writing good stories & less time trying to break the internet with their "creativity". Its beginning to feel a little like the boy who cried wolf on some of their delivery.

[tv echo]

IMO, if it weren't for the intro of Felicity and original Team Arrow, this show wouldn't have survived past season 1.

 

Incidentally, I was only referencing those articles (posted in the media thread) where CW Pres. Mark Pedowitz says stuff like how they lost a lot of male viewers when Smallville went off the air but got those male viewers back with Arrow & The Flash, and how these shows are aimed at the male demo.

Edited February 21, 2015 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

The problem imo is that it looks like Arrow isn't even writing for the male demo per se. It feels like they're writing for the *advertisers*, who really appreciate their products attached to a whole bunch of recognizable superheroes from DC Comics.

[Chaser]

I was re-reading the Examiner review and this struck me:

 

"Slade’s too-casual inquiry after Felicity and quiet satisfaction after Oliver rises to the bait are positively elegant in comparison to the villainous melodrama of Season 3. Slade Wilson keeps his promises, kids, and he’s not dead yet."

 

The build with Slade in S3 was so much more subtle; it allowed for actual suspense. We got the big bold moves (Surprise Party Deathstroke in The Foundry was one of my favorites) and the mind games (introducing himself to the Queens).

 

I miss that. 

Edited February 21, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Guest]

I was re-reading the Examiner review and this struck me:

 

"Slade’s too-casual inquiry after Felicity and quiet satisfaction after Oliver rises to the bait are positively elegant in comparison to the villainous melodrama of Season 3. Slade Wilson keeps his promises, kids, and he’s not dead yet."

 

The build with Slade in S3 was so much more subtle; it allowed for actual suspense. We got the big bold moves (Surprise Party Deathstroke in The Foundry was one of my favorites) and the mind games (introducing himself to the Queens).

 

I miss that. 

 

Me too. I loved Slade. I thought they made a huge misstep making his motivation all about Shado (I actually remember going WTF at the time) but he was a great villain. You actually felt his presence throughout the season, like he could strike at any moment. And I liked the contrast of his friendship with Oliver in the flashbacks and how that slowly deteriorated. 

 

This season, Ra's is neither scary or threatening. He just is. And I think they've relied too much upon the assumption that most of the audience already know who he is and therefore should know that he's bad. It's a massive mistake. Malcolm is more frustrating than anything and while I know he's a terrible person, I just find him annoying. I'm too busy thinking of the stupidness and the failing logic of all the plots rather than the actual suspense, of which there is none. 

 

How could they mess this up so badly?

[KirkB]

Yeah, it's bizarre. They needed to explain Deathstroke because far less people would know about him, yet they even managed to screw that up by making the focus of his anger be Shado. I was disappointed he even brought her up. I had hoped getting rid of the mirakuru would clear his head and allow the writers to ignore the whole mess with Shado and focus his anger where it should be, on Oliver and Felicity. But because they're doing Batman 2.0 and assume everyone saw Nolan's movies they figure they can get away with having every character reiterate how scary Ra's al Ghul is so they don't actually have to SHOW it. And speaking of show, I can deal with Matt Nable not looking like Ra's in...well, any way really, I just wish they had picked someone with actual charisma and menace. No offense to Mr. Nable who I'm sure is a very nice person, I just don't look at him and see Scariest Man in the World.

Edited February 21, 2015 by KirkB