Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[SmallScreenDiva]

She doesn't have a trust fund because she refused to sign the papers to convert it before the city fell apart so when Isabel crashed QC, she took the Queen's money too.

 

Oh, that's right. I actually forgot about that. Well, then Oliver should be showing more concern about where his little sister was supposed to live. *sigh

[Guest]

From the spoiler thread because my reply is bitter:

 

 

They need to cut it out.

 

 

ha yeah it's strange imo the heroes should already be established before they go on the show. Like I think the Black Canary character would work a lot better if she was an already established hero and at times teamed up with  Oliver as a recurring character. Same with the Atom if they really wanted to include him. Occasional team ups are cool but having so many heroes' origin stories on an origin story of Green Arrow is really cluttered

 

But to be fair The Flash origin story took up like 2 minutes on Arrow and I don't think took away anything from the show. :P 

 

 

Exactly. I just think they're maybe losing sight of what this show is about and that's Oliver Queen and his rise to Green Arrow. We don't need a Black Canary (in the comics she's a big enough hero in her own right) and we certainly don't need to see Ray Palmer become The Atom. I agree The Flash origin was fine because it was a segue into the spin-off so I was just using that as an example. But I think all these origin stories detract from Oliver's and I don't appreciate it nor do I care. I'm here for Oliver Queen. Everything else is secondary.

[Shanna]

The money stuff will never make sense, just like all "business" stuff from last season about Isabel diluting the stock so it was worthless...somehow....and still being retained as CEO...somehow....and the magic trust fund that Thea wouldn't sign for without which they lost all their money and house...somehow. After which the queens lost all their money, despite still owning half the company, or 45%, and sorry Walters bank bought 10% - in case you are as bad at math as the writers that is still controlling interest. The whole the thing was so ridiculous it made my head hurt.

Also, remember when team arrow was taking millions every week from criminals? Where did that money go again? Good times.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Shanna

[yellowfred]

The money stuff will never make sense, just like all "business" stuff from last season about Isabel diluting the stock so it was worthless...somehow....and still being retained as CEO...somehow....and the magic trust fund that Thea wouldn't sign for without which they lost all their money and house...somehow. After which the queens lost all their money

 

Well, the stock dilution issue isn't actually that illogical.  If a company's shares of stock don't have a fixed percentage, then you can sell additional shares to new investors (or old ones, if they make additional capital contributions) and, as you get more of them, the percentage value of each share goes down.  There's nothing wrong with doing that, as long as she sold those shares for an appropriate market value, and the board of a struggling company will often approve of that, because it lets the company invest in new projects.  Also, considering the number of times she said that they needed to be courting new investors, she wasn't exactly doing it surreptitiously.  Chances are that the board approved of it and Oliver just wasn't thinking about what that might actually mean (much like when he made her CEO). 

 

Where it gets sketchier is that all of their accounts and possessions were company assets.  I could buy them having a company jet and one or two company cars, but, theoretically, their house, trust funds, and other accounts should all have come from their own money (CEO incomes, capital gains, etc.), so it should be completely separate from whatever accounts Isabel was able to control as Queen Consolidated's new CEO.  If all of that really was bought with the company's capital, it's no surprise the board won't hire another member of the Queen family to run the company, since that's pretty flagrant embezzlement. 

 

So, yeah, the financial stuff makes no sense.  It's too bad the Queens didn't set up their accounts the way Merlyn did his, since he's publicly known as a dead terrorist, but he still has all the money he needs.

[TanyaKay]

How can Oliver be poor with 45% shares? Ray Palmer mentioned in 3x03 that the price of QC stock rose by 10 dollar per share! That is millions of dollars in profit people! He should totally pay for an all expenses paid vacation for Felicity, Roy and Diggle and Family as a way of appreciation. Though I am not sure if Felicity can take time off again from work. I mean she just spent at least 4 days in Central City if her change of outfits is any indication.

[statsgirl]

If the stock isn't paying dividends, then Oliver isn't getting any money from it.  It's like it's sitting in a bank account that isn't paying any interest. He can get some money by selling the stock but if it's low, he isn't going to get very much, plus he's selling his family's stock so it's less likely he can get the company back the less stock he owns.

 

Where it gets sketchier is that all of their accounts and possessions were company assets.  I could buy them having a company jet and one or two company cars, but, theoretically, their house, trust funds, and other accounts should all have come from their own money (CEO incomes, capital gains, etc.), so it should be completely separate from whatever accounts Isabel was able to control as Queen Consolidated's new CEO.  If all of that really was bought with the company's capital, it's no surprise the board won't hire another member of the Queen family to run the company, since that's pretty flagrant embezzlement. 

 

So, yeah, the financial stuff makes no sense.  It's too bad the Queens didn't set up their accounts the way Merlyn did his, since he's publicly known as a dead terrorist, but he still has all the money he needs.

I can see Moira using the other assets to prop up the QC stock when the company was failing post earthquake.  There must have been a lot of money in those paintings and jewelry, as well as all their properties and cars, and they would have needed to make sure the stock didn't fall after she went public about The Undertaking.

 

No surprise Merlyn set up alternative accounts and hid his money for the future. He's the villain, and if anyone ever found out he had set off the earthquake, he would need the money to disappear.

 

 

All this stuff could be swept under the rug through QC when Oliver was in charge but now they are apparently pulling all of this stuff out of thin air and the producers expect us to just roll with it because it's not important. Well no, it's not, the show functions perfectly fine without us having any such answers but that doesn't make it any less frustrating.

As Berlanti said, this isn't Oliver Queen, the poor years. Meaning they didn't want to deal with the details so they handwaved it away except when it's a point in the story.

 

They should have explained.

Edited November 5, 2014 by statsgirl

[TanyaKay]

Don't forget Moira's life insurance, that alone should be in millions.

[statsgirl]

Don't forget Moira's life insurance, that alone should be in millions.

Not if she used it to cover QC's losses.  I think you can do that, use life insurance to underwrite a financial enterprise.

[wonderwall]

LOL You know QC isn't paying any dividends considering how much of a crapper Starling City was in, in the finale. Also with their applied science division completely blown up I can't really see the company scrounging up capital to pay off its dividends when it was probably scrounging up capital/debt in order to rebuild QC. Granted, while the company doesn't have to pay dividends, this doesn't exactly attract any investors in investing in QC stock which makes me wonder why it's at $10. This seems totally overvalued to me. I mean I could probably believe that it rose to $10 after Ray took control of the company, but not in the beginning of episode 1. 

 

Also, I too wondered why all of the Queen assets were in the company name. That's just ridiculously stupid. Whatever bank that helped them with their finances is the worst...

Edited November 5, 2014 by wonderwall

[Shanna]

I'm just saying, they're not poor. They didn't need to sell the house, Oliver doesn't have to sleep at the foundry, and if it isn't 'Oliver queen the poor years' then why did they write the stupid story in the first place?? Ugh.

[wonderwall]

The simplest explanation would be that even though Walter moved out of Starling (too many bad memories), he is helping Oliver out financially... Unfortunately the writers couldn't even think of that... smh

Edited November 5, 2014 by wonderwall

[SmallScreenDiva]

And if you try to ask Guggenheim about it, you get a "read the comics/smiley face" response. *facepalm*

[apinknightmare]

And if you try to ask Guggenheim about it, you get a "read the comics/smiley face" response. *facepalm*

 

Since they're actually putting whole scenes that already happened in the show in the comics, he can smiley face some of the comics crap into the show so we can understand exactly what's happening.

[JenMD]

I mean she just spent at least 4 days in Central City if her change of outfits is any indication.

Despite Felicity asking for a few days off and despite the many wardrobe changes, the Flash appeared to take place in one day (maybe two, I don't want to get too far afield, but that timeline was wonky). It's a strange comfort to me that the writers over there are as bad at establishing a reasonable timeline as the Arrow writers are. I remain bitter that the Arrow writers don't seem to care if things are coherent. Seriously, if I had a dollar for every time I've said, "That makes no sense", I could have bought QC (I find it especially bad this season). They're so busy squeezing in the kitchen sink, basic details are falling by the wayside.

[writersblock51]

I wouldn't mind the timeline glitches if the timeline wasn't important to some of the stories - such as when the team walked down to the lair and found Laurel there with Sara's body on the table. It made no sense that she'd been there 'all night' if that's where Oliver is sleeping, for example.  These things are admittedly small but they still matter because they set the scenes and help establish continuity. And continuity helps build viewer trust and the show's credibility.

 

The show has always been wonky with timelines but I find myself being more annoyed in general when stuff like this happens.

 

I'm trying to look forward to tonight's Felicity episode but I'm still bitter about how the show seems focused on two things this season that I'm not interested in:

1) Black Canary 2.0 Origin story

2) The Atom Origin story

 

The show is about Oliver or should be.  What we have now is that, heading into the 5th episode, all sorts of stuff has happened to nearly everyone else BUT Oliver is still stuck where he was before taking down Slade. He's regressing.

 

Sara's dead but otherwise, everyone is moving forward.  Even Roy.  So why is the show so focused on everyone else BUT the hero and namesake of the show?

[dtissagirl]

The timeline being so wonky is also a problem for me, because in-show, it's been, what, 10 days? 12? since Sara died? In 304 they mention Sara came to town "two weeks ago". If she surveilled Merlyn for a single day, and died later that night, it's still 13 days at most since she died.

 

But for the audience, it's been over a month, and the amount of plot they packed into 4 episodes also feels like it's been over a month. But it hasn't, and that disconnect is pretty glaring. [specially since Flash is keeping a better pace, but then Felicity went there, and came back, and possibly opened a rift in the time-space continuum while at it.]

Edited November 5, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Sunshine]

I think they have forgotten that they are writing a TV show based on comic characters and keep falling back on comic book writing.  We expect to see a natural progression from A to C.  Comic books don't seem to concern themselves with those types of details so they don't see the need to incorporate them in the show.   

 

If they are going to explain things in Arrow 2.5 that affects storyline in Arrow 3.0 (financial issues, new characters, etc.) then it should be written between May and September.  What is the point of showing any of these things in detail in 2.5 but you are reading about them in April/May 2015 and that info was pertinent in October 2014?!!!!

[Morrigan2575]

I think they have forgotten that they are writing a TV show based on comic characters and keep falling back on comic book writing.  We expect to see a natural progression from A to C.  Comic books don't seem to concern themselves with those types of details so they don't see the need to incorporate them in the show.

 

Which comic books?  Can you expand on this statement.

[catrox14]

Oh, that's right. I actually forgot about that. Well, then Oliver should be showing more concern about where his little sister was supposed to live. *sigh

I dunno. Thea made it pretty clear she wanted space from Oliver. When he found her she was getting by, he might just might just be respecting her space and thinking if she needs help she'll ask.

I give up on the financial stuff. If Oliver says he's broke I go with that.

Edited November 5, 2014 by catrox14

[wingster55]

Season 3. Too little Diggle. No me gusta. 

[tessaray]

Interesting that the bitterness thread got a break this week.  :-)

 

Most of my bitterness since the premiere has been secondhand (since I couldn't bear to watch the worst) - Secret Origin is the first full episode of S3 that I've watched.  I liked it but I didn't FF any scenes in this episode, so I'm officially firsthand bitter about Quentin and SWMNBN keeping Sara's death from him.  I can't imagine how hard that's been for those of you who are still watching. 

 

I think the 3 inter-cut scenes would have been more effective if I hadn't laughed out loud at one character's arms flailing all over the place.  My bitterness at the gym scenes would fill a whole post if I could stand to analyze it so I'll just go back to lurking now.   

[Starfish35]

I'm with you Tessaray. This week's episode was the first episode this season I've watched. I wasn't intending to - my bitterness is deep - but in the end, I couldn't resist. And while I thoroughly enjoyed it, and found its flaws to be (for me) easily overlooked, it just makes me the more upset and frustrated that they have decided to take the show the direction they have this season. Because THIS! THIS was the show I loved. THIS is what I wanted to see this season. Not that every episode needs to be so Felicity focused, but that it was lighter and funny, and the darker elements were downplayed. But by most accounts, this episode was a bit of an aberration for this season. It's just...why, writers. Why did you do this?

[ohjoy]

From what I can tell, they did it so there would be clear differentiation between this show and The Flash. Which, if that was indeed the case, then I can at least congratulate them on their definite success, because the people I know who have seen both show can absolutely tell the difference -- and they're no longer watching Arrow.

[Danny Franks]

From what I can tell, they did it so there would be clear differentiation between this show and The Flash. Which, if that was indeed the case, then I can at least congratulate them on their definite success, because the people I know who have seen both show can absolutely tell the difference -- and they're no longer watching Arrow.

 

That's what is so odd to me. Because the key difference between Arrow and The Flash, from everything I've seen and read, is that The Flash is fun and Arrow... isn't.

 

Why on earth would you want your show to be seen as dark and gloomy and without much in the way of lightness and joy? I guess these writers have developed a sense of grandeur that is inappropriate to the staff of a CW show, and imagine they're creating something comparable to The Wire or Breaking Bad, with their 'gritty', 'dramatic' show where no one is happy, ever. 

 

It takes much, much better writing than Arrow has ever had to be able to pull that off. And I've seen so many shows, over the past few years, try to transition from light and fluffy to serious and dramatic. And you know what? I've never enjoyed it. Ever. If I start watching a show because I want to have something light or witty or shallowly amusing, then the last thing I want is to then be asked to treat the show like it's something that's actually important and worthy.

 

Yes, Arrow was fairly dark right from the beginning, with traumatised Oliver living in the basement and pretending he was Batman, but there was always a fair amount of lightness and joy to be found. In the secondary characters, in the guest spots, even in Oliver's own pomposity being punctured every now and then. The show at least gave the sense that these people didn't live their whole lives crushed under the weight of their experiences.

 

Now? Moira murdered, Sara murdered, Tommy dead, Lance apparently at death's door, Thea the acolyte of an insane, undead murderer, how do the people left even get out of bed in the morning?  What's to enjoy? The main source of light in the show, Oliver and Felicity's interactions, has been doused, from what I hear. Just like I feared it would, if the writers decided to fill their relationship with angst and misery.

[statsgirl]

 

Why on earth would you want your show to be seen as dark and gloomy and without much in the way of lightness and joy?

AS far as I can tell, it's because of the Nolan Batman movies and how 'wonderful' they were..  

 

However, since I never got past the first one because it seemed so absurd to me, that don't impress me much.

[Shanna]

I enjoy a mix of light and dark. I think this previous episode had plenty of that, it's just important for the show to have a good balance. This show is better at sometimes than others.

[writersblock51]

I loved the better balance of humor, drama, action and relationships in 3.05.  It reminded me of what I've loved about many episodes in S1 and S2. 

What I dislike is that this episode felt like a 180 change in direction and tone from what Season 3 has been so far: dark, gloomy, discouraging and frustrating. The stunts have been fun but even some of them have taken place in such poorly lit sets that I can't seem to enjoy them as much as I could have.

 

The show seems to be heading down 2 specific paths, neither of which I'm enjoying so far:

1) Arrow is Batman (when, really, Arrow has never been Batman - and he certainly shouldn't resemble Frank Miller's comic version or Nolan's cinematic version)

 

2) Laurel's origin story as Canary 2.0.  This seems to be taking up a disproportionate amount of screen time on a show that is called "Arrow" and should never be a Black Canary show.  Too much time was spent on Sara's BC journey - time that seems to be an absolute waste now.   How many screen minutes were spent on Sara's BC story last season - time that could have been spent on Team Arrow, Isabel, Sebastian and/or a MUCH better story to explain Slade's revenge motive

 

I'm so very sick and tired on seeing Sara's death over and over again.  The show (or the marketing department) seem obsessive about showing it repeatedly. That's very concerning.  It also feeds into Arrow = Batman darkness & perpetual pain.

Edited November 8, 2014 by writersblock51

[tessaray]

To be fair, Sara's BC journey overlapped Oliver's (early back story/journey) for the most part, so it wasn't wasted screen time.  Unlike BC 2.0, which doesn't and is. 

Edited November 8, 2014 by tessaray

[Morrigan2575]

2) Laurel's origin story as Canary 2.0. This seems to be taking up a disproportionate amount of screen time on a show that is called "Arrow" and should never be a Black Canary show.

If you had to guess how much screen time would you say Laurel's had in the first 5 episodes? Where would she rank on the list of series regulars from most to least?

Edited November 8, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Zalyn]

If you had to guess how much screen time would you say Laurel's had in the first 5 episodes? Where would she rank on the list of series regulars from most to least?

It is possible that the disconnect of Laurel's scenes from the rest of the cast and the main or secondary plots makes it feel even more disproportionate.  There is so much character development that can happen with tight writing even when characters are involved in the main story.  But it's like you have that one guest to a dinner party who brought take out and eats that instead of what everyone else is eating; you notice it more.

[Ceylon5]

If you had to guess how much screen time would you say Laurel's had in the first 5 episodes? Where would she rank on the list of series regulars from most to least?

 

Okay, my guess would be (in order of most screen-time to the least for 301- 305):  Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Laurel, Roy, Thea, Lance and Merlyn.  I'm not sure about Laurel & Roy, though - he hasn't had that many lines, but he's often hanging about in the background, so may have had more screen-time.  But an equally important factor, of course, is the quality of the screen-time - the story is going out of its way to focus on Laurel, so even if she has had less screen-time than Roy (who's mostly just there, hovering about), it's more noticeable, focussed deliberate Laurel screen-time.  

 

I think the reason Original Team Arrow (+ Roy) works is because them all being together is more than the sum of its parts (i.e. they're not taking away from each other - their camaraderie and interactions are what we want to see).  This means that you can get character development, screen-time, quality conversations and so on for all of them simultaneously, which is far better use of limited screen-time than the more detached story-lines which only develop one or two characters at a time (and generally less enjoyably).  This is one major problem with Laurel's story always being so detached from everything else - it is development just for her, which in simple mathematical terms, is a less productive use of screen-time than a scene with 4 of the main characters in it.  Unless you love that one character, you're just getting less bang for your buck.

 

ETA: Or what Zalyn said more succinctly.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Ceylon5

[catrox14]

Because the key difference between Arrow and The Flash, from everything I've seen and read, is that The Flash is fun and Arrow... isn't.

The Flash might look more fun on the surface but IMO there is undercurrent of edginess that I think is going to make it more serious at some point sooner rather than later.

Arrow was always fun for me because it had the right blend of action, humor, drama, angst and wit. I don't see how one can tell the story of Oliver Queen who spent years on a Island tortured, learning to survive off the land and having to kill in order to survive and have it be the the same kind of fun as the Flash. Despite my Bitterness I have hope that Arrow will find its way again and return to being about Oliver Queen.

Edited November 8, 2014 by catrox14

[wingster55]

I honestly think the lack of Oliver thus far is to appease Stephen. 

[writersblock51]

If you had to guess how much screen time would you say Laurel's had in the first 5 episodes? Where would she rank on the list of series regulars from most to least?

 

In the first five episodes, including the Felicity one I think she and Felicity are about the same in screen time.  I have no idea if that's accurate but that certainly is my (biased, admittedly) perception.  In order of appearance (most to least) - and I am going strictly by time seen on the screen, NOT lines of dialogue:

1. Oliver

2. Laurel/Felicity (tied)

3. Diggle'

4. Roy/Thea (tied)

5. Quentin

6. Malcolm

7. Sara (in repeated flashbacks of her death scene)

8. Nyssa

9. Ted

 

I do agree that much of Sara's BC journey was in conjunction with Oliver's - which is not something I had a problem with at the time.  I didn't like how much Lance Family stuff there was once she was back in Starling City.  But - in retrospect - I think we could have easily had less of Sara's development in the flashbacks and, instead, seen how Slade's feelings about Shado had changed.  I think  that would have made his return to Starling City and his plans to destroy Oliver a far stronger and viable story arc.

 

Instead, we got a "What the ?" feel that even Manu Bennett expressed publicly. 

 

 

It is possible that the disconnect of Laurel's scenes from the rest of the cast and the main or secondary plots makes it feel even more disproportionate.  There is so much character development that can happen with tight writing even when characters are involved in the main story.  But it's like you have that one guest to a dinner party who brought take out and eats that instead of what everyone else is eating; you notice it more.

 

The bolded part is my emphasis because I think the analogy is excellent for how Canary 2.0 is working out.

I honestly think the lack of Oliver thus far is to appease Stephen. 

Ok, I'm sorry but I don't understand this. He's the lead actor of the show, currently one of the biggest faces of DC's TV industry and a photogenic ambassador of the show - why on earth would he want to scale back so drastically at this point?

 

I do think he likes having some time off AND having his co-stars get more opportunities but ... I think he's taking that as a sign of Season 3 flexibility. He's also doing crossover episodes.  I cannot fathom why he'd ask for time off.  I just think he's enjoying that he has a bit more time right now because that's how things are working out.

[wingster55]

Ok, I'm sorry but I don't understand this. He's the lead actor of the show, currently one of the biggest faces of DC's TV industry and a photogenic ambassador of the show - why on earth would he want to scale back so drastically at this point?

I do think he likes having some time off AND having his co-stars get more opportunities but ... I think he's taking that as a sign of Season 3 flexibility. He's also doing crossover episodes.  I cannot fathom why he'd ask for time off.  I just think he's enjoying that he has a bit more time right now because that's how things are working out.

 

He's been very vocal about scaling back his time on the show/noting how tough the schedule is. IIRC he's even suggested having 6 eps of Suicide Squad in the middle of the season as a ...mini spin-off I guess. 

[writersblock51]

Well, he says a lot of things... doesn't mean he's going to say "Hey, I don't want to work much right now! Ok, great, thanks!"   He's also said that he knows that he's in the position to work a lot, raise awareness on issues he's passionate about, engage with fans and so on. Basically, he knows that this is a window in time that he's blessed to have. And he has no idea how long it will last.

 

I truly can't see an actor scaling back at what seems like a peak time unless there's some very serious, extentuating circumstances going on in his personal life. He barely stopped working when his child was born. 

Edited November 8, 2014 by writersblock51

[catrox14]

I honestly think the lack of Oliver thus far is to appease Stephen.

i don't see how it's to appease Stephen. I know based on a interview he had with Aisha Tyler that when he does have less to do he has asked to wrap his hours off around a weekend which is pretty reasonable considering they work 12 to 14 hour days and then must get 12 hours off. SA works the literal most of any actor on the show.. Using the word appease makes it sound like he's being a demanding asshole which I don't think is true.

Edited November 8, 2014 by catrox14

[wingster55]

Using the word appease makes it sound like he's being a demanding asshole which I don't think is true.

 

Ok fair enough...but I do think it is for his benefit. I do expect him to resume the old schedule in the second half of the season but for now he takes a backseat.

[catrox14]

Ok fair enough...but I do think it is for his benefit. I do expect him to resume the old schedule in the second half of the season but for now he takes a backseat.

He's too important to the show to run him into the ground. But his lack of sfory so far is IMO story related not Stephen needing a rest. He said in that same interview he had pneumonia at one point but was proud that they never ha d to take an insurance day because he couldn't work.

And it's not like he has 10 years on the show like jared or Jensen where they can ask to be written out of an episode for a personal reason and even those guys do that next to never.

[Danny Franks]

When you consider that Stephen Amell has to work 14 hour days, it makes sense that he'd want more time off. When you consider he's working them as well as keeping up the training regime that has him looking like he has to for the role, and the fact he's a husband and father to a young child, I cannot even fathom how the guy gets a spare second in any given day.

 

It's completely understandable to me that he would want to scale things back a little, and that he would want other cast members to get more time. At least for a while. The guy probably has no life whatsoever, outside the show.

 

Sadly, it seems like the writers completely fucked this whole thing up and killed the one character who was comparable to Oliver in terms of temperament, experiences and abilities, so the extra scenes are of her sister doing stuff that not many people seem to want to see her doing. Oh, and there's room for the latest EP crush object that DC have said, 'yeah, you can use him if you want, whatevs' to.

[Morrigan2575]

In the first five episodes, including the Felicity one I think she and Felicity are about the same in screen time. I have no idea if that's accurate but that certainly is my (biased, admittedly) perception. In order of appearance (most to least) - and I am going strictly by time seen on the screen, NOT lines of dialogue:

1. Oliver

2. Laurel/Felicity (tied)

Excluding The Flash and 305, Felicity had 10 minutes more screen time in 301-304 than Laurel. If you include 305 where Felicity had 28 minutes of screen time, Oliver had 16 and Laurel clocked in at 3 minutes. Felicity is sitting at 69 minutes vs Laurel at 39 minutes.

My friend is only tracking those 3 but it seems perception regarding Laurel is vastly different then reality. This is not an accusation or anything I get that when you don't like something even in the smallest doses it can feel like it's taking over

In any case here are the rounded screen times, not exact numbers.

Felicity:

301 - 21 min

301 - 14.5 min

303 - 4.5 min

304 - 1 min (probably 30 sec really)

305 - 28 min (Felicity centric episode)

Total 69 min

Felicity also got 16 minutes of screen time on Flash 104.

Laurel:

301 - 5 min

302 - 13.5 min (Laurel centric episode)

303 - 7.5 min

304 - 10 min

305 - 3 min

Total 39 min

I don't remember Oliver's total but I know he has the most in every episode except 305, I only remember 305 because SA made several comments about only working 4 days for that episode.

I have no idea what will happen in 3B but, so far in 3A they havent gone out of their way to make Arrow all about Laurel's journey. Which I find fascinating given the perception regarding the EPs intent.

Just to reiterate I'm not trying to point fingers or anything I totally get why people feel this way, I just find it interesting.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

Perception is a funny thing. I knew Felicity had more screentime, but I didn't realize it was soo lopsided. I kinda feel bad for complaining about Laurel's screentime. Lol

 

Thanks for looking that up. It is really interesting.

[Password]

I'm going to be very cheeky...I don't feel bad at alllll *twirling*

[Zalyn]

Excluding The Flash and 305, Felicity had 10 minutes more screen time in 301-304 than Laurel. If you include 305 where Felicity had 28 minutes of screen time, Oliver had 16 and Laurel clocked in at 3 minutes. Felicity is sitting at 69 minutes vs Laurel at 39 minutes.

My friend is only tracking those 3 but it seems perception regarding Laurel is vastly different then reality. This is not an accusation or anything I get that when you don't like something even in the smallest doses it can feel like it's taking over

Please send thanks to your friend for collecting that data so we didn't have to. 

[Ceylon5]

Perception is a funny thing. I knew Felicity had more screentime, but I didn't realize it was soo lopsided. I kinda feel bad for complaining about Laurel's screentime. Lol

 

To be fair, it's only the Felicity-centric episode that made it so lop-sided (and that was long overdue and the only time she's had that kind of personal focus - the majority of her screen-time is "Oliver/plot support" rather than being about her).  Working from Morrigan's numbers (and not counting Felicity's 14m30 on The Flash, because that's not relevant to Arrow), in the first 4 episodes Felicity had 40 minutes (FYI - Felicity was in 304 for only 5 seconds, so I'm excluding that one entirely!) and Laurel had 36 minutes, which surprises me.  I honestly thought she had had significantly less than Felicity, but with those figures, they're almost on a par.  

 

I've been keeping track of Felicity & Diggle this season, and my numbers are more conservative than Morrigan's - I've got Felicity's figures as follows:

301 - 18m34 at most (her times are tricky to work out when she's on the comms - sometimes I count the whole scene as Felicity time if it's chopping back and forth a lot between her and the action, but sometimes when it goes to an extended action section, I just count the parts where she/her voice is actually on the screen)

302 - 14m22

303 - 4m26

304 - 5 secs

305 - 26m27

TOTAL - 64m04 (Diggle is currently on 43m03 - he was ahead of Felicity until the Felicity episode put her way ahead)

 

So Diggle has had more screen-time than Laurel too, which is in line with what I thought, but prior to Felicity's episode, Felicity, Laurel and Diggle all had very similar amounts of screen-time, which I'd hazard a guess is a change from last season, when Laurel's screen-time was often extremely limited.  And that's why the audience is feeling like Laurel is around more - because she is around more than she had been previously (i.e. comparing her current time to her earlier time, rather than to other people's current time).

[writersblock51]

Morrigan2575, thanks for the breakdown.  For my analysis, I had left out 3.05 and I figured my perception was at odds with reality.  The reality is very interesting! 

 

That being said, I still feel like there's too much Laurel.... hahahahahahaha

[DrSpaceman10]

To be fair, it's only the Felicity-centric episode that made it so lop-sided (and that was long overdue and the only time she's had that kind of personal focus - the majority of her screen-time is "Oliver/plot support" rather than being about her).  Working from Morrigan's numbers (and not counting Felicity's 14m30 on The Flash, because that's not relevant to Arrow), in the first 4 episodes Felicity had 40 minutes (FYI - Felicity was in 304 for only 5 seconds, so I'm excluding that one entirely!) and Laurel had 36 minutes, which surprises me.  I honestly thought she had had significantly less than Felicity, but with those figures, they're almost on a par.  

 

I agree, I don't think we should count 3x05 because it's an outlier and Felicity isn't likely to have a centric episode again this season. I think 3x06

is likely to have more Laurel than Felicity, at least according to the promos/description

 I'd be interested to see how 3x01-3x09 (excluding 3x05) stack up. 

Edited November 8, 2014 by drspaceman10

[statsgirl]

As others have said, we notice the Laurel screentime more because it's usually about Laurel herself as a character, as opposed to Felicity working the comms on a Team Arrow case.  I remember one reviewer who didn't like the episode, snarked Why are Oliver and Roy doing crowd control with tear gas arrows? and the answer is, because it's about Laurel's origin story.

[Princess Vanellope]

I just don't understand. Why did I invest myself in Sara at all? Why did they spend so much time fleshing out Sara's backstory and character only to off her and have her sister jump into her place. Not only that, she is basically SWF as far as the costume goes if the spoiler pic today is to be believed. Why did you waste my time show???? So we can have Carbon Copynary? Canary 2.0 who is basically a downgrade from the first version? I'm so irritated

Edited November 9, 2014 by Princess Vanellope

[statsgirl]

I just don't understand. Why did I invest myself in Sara at all? 

I think because to the EPs, it's about the investment rather than the pay-off.  That's why MG talked about Oliver and Laurel getting together and then breaking up and then getting together again.

 

For me, it's about the pay-off. I fell for Sara, who I thought was the perfect Black Canary, and I'm bitter now that she was just used as a stepping stone for another character's journey.