Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[olicityfan25]

I agree so so much with this. I really wanted to see that development which is why  I felt some of their interaction was unnatural.  Like Felicity would never touch his cheek before. And to me it's evident they are using the relationship to bait viewers whichis why they had the date, the kiss, and the "I love you" thing all in the premiere." To try and hook viewers. at the premiere so they continue watching with hope they get together. 

Do you mean on her own accord? Because she actually has touched his face before. The wiping of the "blood" scene from his face in front of Isabel.

[writersblock51]

Trying to catch up after a busy weekend.... so much to respond to!  Sorry for my thoughts being all over the place.  I may end up editing the post later on to clean things up a bit, we'll see.

 

 

Well all the villains are male. That's why they are killed by men. I don't get it, is it that you would rather they be killed by women?

 

This is not true for the show.  China White, Waller and Isabel.  (yes, I consider this verison of Waller a villain)  I could even put Moira in the Villain category.  And, to a degree, Nyssa (depending on if she was after you or helping you). 

 

Walter was a kidnapping victim. He was the only male one in Oliver's life that I can think of - but his kidnapping had NOTHING to do with Oliver and everything to do with Moira. But Diggle and now Roy should be in just as much danger as Felicity in terms of their Team Arrow membership cards.  And Diggle is seen by the public with Oliver even more than Felicity is.  So why isn't he a frequent target?

 

KC's timeliness about posting the pic of her "maybe" getting fitted for the mask (but definitely getting fitted for the mask) - tactless? Yes, IMO.  Surprising, coming from her? Not at all.  Also not surprising that she didn't remark on social media about CL leaving. 

 

The 'necessary' nature of simply having to write stories a certain way - also, and emphatically, NOT TRUE.  And it's a bullshit, lazy, ridiculous, non creative and frustrating manner to go about story-telling.  This show has stated clearly and often that it does NOT adhere to 'comic book canon' and, every time that happens, I'm glad.  Because I think it gives the show far more opportunity with character development and plots.  I like to think of the show as an adaptation based on the comics - maybe an alternate universe.  Much of what's been shown on the show has gone along with that kind of approach, with varying levels of success.  I think the overall effect is positive because it's in it's 3rd season.

 

But when the show then uses 'but comics!' as a crutch, then I get very disappointed, angry and bitter.  Because if I wanted to enjoy the comic stories, I'd read the comics.  I watch the show to be entertained, and I certainly hope that the show will continue to ebb and flow with what's working.  I hope the show would have the sense to drop what isn't working.

 

I think few people understand why KC is still on the show and why Laurel's path is still to become BC. Based on the comments and reactions at Stephen Amell's NYCC panel, I think he's aware of what is ebbing and flowing.  I don't know what influence he has over that level of direction the show may take - I'm guessing the short answer is "none."  I hope it's a bit better than that, though - because he's the 1 person from the show who seems to be 100% aware of how the fans feel.  Not everyone loves Olicity, he knows that.  A lot of people don't like Laurel, he knows that too. And he knows how Sara's death - and CL's departure - would be regarded.  He knows that a lot fans miss Tommy/Colin O'Donnell.  He's said repeatedly that he loved working with and sorely misses Susanna Thompson.  I think the show would benefit by listening closely to him. 

 

Unless the show is going to pull a HIMYM ending...  Then nothing he says now will change what's coming.

 

I hope the show doesn't have their ending written yet or, even if roughly mapped out, carved in stone.  Otherwise, I get a sense of dread like I'm about to watch "Revenge of the Sith."  There were a lot of problems with that movie but, to me, the biggest was that I knew how it ended  (and how the future would unfold) before it even began.  What a restrictive environment in which to create an engrossing and creative story.  I'm not saying this can't be done - rather, it's a HUGE task to undertake and I have no faith that this show can do a good job with it.

 

The sexist/misogynist leanings of the show... this is, I think, open to as much personal perspective as much as all things about the show are (the one exception: universal love of the salmon ladder).  My take on it isn't cut or dry.  I think the very nature of comic book superheros has a long history with sexist everything - characterization, costumes, skills, destinies, relationships, etc.  I think there's a lot more awareness among authors, writers and publishers that there are less/non sexist ways to have females in this universe.

 

Arrow specifically - I think is aware but then also not.  They have written strong female characters but also have struggled with writing healthy relationships between them (though Moira & Thea were always written solidly as mother & daughter, IMO).  I think Sara and Sin and then Sin and Thea were their best, non family attempts. 

 

And i don't think any of them would pass the Bechdel test.  Which is kind of a sexist test...

 

Also, the EPs past comments about fishnets make me wonder - when fans ask about the goatee for Oliver, SA shoots it down immediately and firmly.  Fine.  Yet fishnets are still being discussed?  I'm clearly projecting my eye-roll into this because I think they are stupid for anyone running around, fighting bad guys. I was relieved that they were incorporated onto the outside of Sara's BC costume.  Homage made while not indulging in a look that is utterly stupid.  Fine.  So when the EPs bring up the fishnets, I truly hope they are merely troling and teasing. 

 

Also - why are there any female fighters on the show wearing outfits that highlight cleavage?  Ravager and Helena had the girls fully covered up by leather, protecting them as much as as Oliver and Roy protect their chests (and heart).  China White and Black Canary, though.. *sigh*  And I know the answer is "boobies!" but c'mon...

 

Which also explains the return of the boob-window dress.

 

To me, that's channeling Power Girl and, well, no one can ever convince me that she isn't every fan boys Pin Up. 

 

Look, I'm not saying the females on the show need to dress in high necked, loosely fitting clothes.  But there's stuff that that they wear that is catering to 'that audience' that wants the boobs, fishnets, high heels and painted on leather.  And I know it's a CW show.  So when you put the outifts, and the attitudes, together - you get a show that has sexist elements.

 

I can deal with some of it but when there are other parts of the show that take that and put it on steroids (or miraku!), then I'm going to back away.  Sara's death, nearly a week later, is no less disrespectful and sad to me.  I think think it's a massive mistake for the show.  I do NOT think Laurel's BC stint will be accepted by the majority of fans of the show unless she dies while failing miserably.

 

I also wonder how Quentin and his ticker are going to be when he catches wind of what Laurel will be up to.  maybe he can ground her for life or something?

[TanyaKay]

Sara's death, nearly a week later, is no less disrespectful and sad to me.  I think think it's a massive mistake for the show.  I do NOT think Laurel's BC stint will be accepted by the majority of fans of the show unless she dies while failing miserably.

 

I also wonder how Quentin and his ticker are going to be when he catches wind of what Laurel will be up to.  maybe he can ground her for life or something?

 

oh boy, it may sounds insensitive but I legit laughed out loud at that.

 

Personally, I do not want her to die and become a martyr. I just want her to go away to help kids in Nigeria or Peru or some place far far away. That would be a good way for her to help people right?

[writersblock51]

A fucking pine box.

 

I want to smack every single Arrow executive producer around for a week, I really do.

 

I just don't understand how anyone could possibly bring this up in the writers' room: "You know what would be so cool and dark? Dig her first grave up, throw her in a plain pine box and they all throw handfuls of dirt on the coffin!  Right?!?!  Cool!"

 

"Even better - make sure Quentin isn't there!"

 

"Oh yeah, that would be great!"

 

"And this would be in the dead of night, right?"

 

"Definitely. Because that makes it so much cooler."

 

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[bravelittletoaster]

Reading this thread for the first time, because my bitterness is new, and resolute, and endgame now, I was thinking about the difference in my reactions to Moira's death and Sara's death, because they were two of my favorite characters.  I was really gutted at the end of Moira, but I think it was simply a matter of economics--I suffered the loss but I still had some other investments keeping me around.  But with Moira gone and now Sara gone, and Thea AWOL and seemingly tied to Merlyn [who I don't care about], I guess I'm really dunzo.  I like Stephen, but not enough to watch a show telling stories about characters I don't care about.  Felicity has some funny lines and I don't dislike her, but I don't really relate to nebbishy characters like that.  I kind of prefer straightforward ass-kickers.

 

So I think it turns out that a show can't actually eliminate all the characters you're interested in and still be interesting.  What a revelation.

[Lokiberry]

A fucking pine box.

 

I want to smack every single Arrow executive producer around for a week, I really do.

 

I just don't understand how anyone could possibly bring this up in the writers' room: "You know what would be so cool and dark? Dig her first grave up, throw her in a plain pine box and they all throw handfuls of dirt on the coffin!  Right?!?!  Cool!"

 

"Even better - make sure Quentin isn't there!"

 

"Oh yeah, that would be great!"

 

"And this would be in the dead of night, right?"

 

"Definitely. Because that makes it so much cooler."

 

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I fully believe that the disrespectful way she died and will be buried is about MKG showing the fans how little Sara meant to them. Theres also a smidge of "You're not the boss of us!" thrown in too.

[wonderwall]

Oh boy, oh boy I can't wait to count all the plot holes regarding Sara in the second episode!!!

 

Sara was literally thrown out like trash and I'm not actually surprised with all of this. 

[Ceylon5]

Felicity has some funny lines and I don't dislike her, but I don't really relate to nebbishy characters like that.  I kind of prefer straightforward ass-kickers.

 

Responding in Felicity's thread.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Ceylon5

[Danny Franks]

I fully believe that the disrespectful way she died and will be buried is about MKG showing the fans how little Sara meant to them. Theres also a smidge of "You're not the boss of us!" thrown in too.

 

From the shots I've seen, it looks like it's staged as though they're covering up a crime. I said before that it seems completely sleazy, from top to bottom, and that includes the idea of effectively dumping her body in a reopened grave, where no one will ever look.

 

Is it the producers telling the audience just how little Sara meant to them? Yeah, it feels like it. I guess they could be resentful over how quickly Sara was accepted by the audience, when their own little pet canary was rejected almost instantly, and nothing they've tried has ever convinced people that she's a worthy hero.

 

So it feels like yet another attempt by the showrunners to force fans into their line of thinking, regarding Laurel. Not gonna work. Trying the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results? That's the definition of something, I believe. So yeah, try to force Laurel down the throats of fans until they just give up and accept her, or they choke to death. I hate it when arrogant producers decide what they want, and then ignore the fans.

 

So I think it turns out that a show can't actually eliminate all the characters you're interested in and still be interesting.  What a revelation.

 

 

It doesn't even take that much to kill my interest in a show. A few bad decisions, the removing of a character I like, the continued inclusion of one I don't, and I'll usually check out unless the writing is very good. Well, Arrow's writing ain't that good, and Laurel fucking sucks. Almost as bad as Coulson. So even though I like Felicity, and I like Oliver (when he's not being a self-martyring dick), and I like Diggle, I think I'd just rather not watch, because I don't anticipate enjoying it very much.

[writersblock51]

 

I fully believe that the disrespectful way she died and will be buried is about MKG showing the fans how little Sara meant to them. Theres also a smidge of "You're not the boss of us!" thrown in too.

 

@Lokiberry, I agree - it seems along the lines of how things have been done on the show before.  Very passive aggressive, screw you, it's my show, I'll do what I want stuff. 

 

And:

 

 

Is it the producers telling the audience just how little Sara meant to them? Yeah, it feels like it. I guess they could be resentful over how quickly Sara was accepted by the audience, when their own little pet canary was rejected almost instantly, and nothing they've tried has ever convinced people that she's a worthy hero.

 

So it feels like yet another attempt by the showrunners to force fans into their line of thinking, regarding Laurel. Not gonna work. Trying the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results? That's the definition of something, I believe. So yeah, try to force Laurel down the throats of fans until they just give up and accept her, or they choke to death. I hate it when arrogant producers decide what they want, and then ignore the fans.

 

It's odd how the EPs will say, repeatedly, how they definitely consider what's working with the fans in regards to what they will put on the screen.  BUT I think it's only if they happen to agree with the fans.  Hence, Diggle is a key component, Felicity is a full blown partner on the team & Oliver's personal life (maybe, hopefully) and Malcolm is Thea's father, not Oliver's.

 

Ok, the one about Malcolm came from JB's partner but I'm profoundly relieved that he said what I firmly believe what the audience would have said if anything got aired a la Skywalker. In the case of Malcolm, JB's partner was the voice of The Fan.

 

And Diggle seems to often be the voice of The Fan so many times that it's easy to think that the show is very aware of what fans want and what they see. This isn't David Ramsey ad libbing, either.

 

So that's what absolutely baffles me about the entire Sara storyline, from the pilot and going forward.  Why have ANY of it?  Why not give the meatiest Canary bits to Laurel if that was the goal?  Because it's no secret that a LOT of fans are turned off by what's happened now.  Did the EPs truly think the majority would be thrilled?

 

I'm tired of Laurel being their blind spot, I truly am. 

[blixie]

 

Why have ANY of it?

 

I think they never anticipated they had to write a story for Laurel, or that her character would crater so completely with critics and viewers. Dinah Laurel Lance in the comics is I understand hugely popular and well liked, yet they jettisoned every aspect of the comics character except her name, even then they essentially dropped the Dinah. They clearly believed and still mostly do believe all they need to sell the character is Comic Name + jacket/fishnets, when you can't be assed to write for a character or think about who she's supposed to be than you end up with Laurel. Miscasting the part with Katie Cassidy didn't help, and I genuinely think their story line for Laurel was she's a Lawyer until she witnesses her sisters murder and instantly becomes Black Canary. Only vengeance could uncork all that secrety secret hidden awesome, hiding the awesome worked really well. There was a beginning and an end point but no middle. Well Sara was the middle, the middle that they actually bothered to write well, the middle that they actually bothered to cast well. And when Sara proved more popular than they expected they felt their built in flashback narrative allowed them to have their Black Canary Cake and Eat Sara too. Whatever they are the actual worst.

[writersblock51]

@blixie, that sounds entirely plausible.

 

I believe that Dinah (Drake) Lance is indeed popular in the comics (I know that I liked her!).  So perhaps the show was operating under certain assumptions regarding how Laurel would need to be developed on the show.

 

There are so many problems with that approach, though, if that's in fact how they did it.

 

- there was no way to gauge how many fans of the show were familiar with the comics

- character development was done with Oliver, of course, but also with Moira, Malcolm, Tommy and Thea.  Laurel was pretty stagnant, especially for the lead female AND in comparison to other non-lead characters.

 

I just can't shake the feeling that the show has been stymied with what to do with Laurel/KC since nearly the first few episodes.  They were hell bent on having Black Canary soon so they tried to make one that we'd care enough about to watch her be killed.  Laurel's revenge mission to honor her dead sister would then make Laurel & KC more appealing.

 

I do agree that they may have thought Jacket + Revenge Motive = Instant Canary

[JJ928]

I think you're right, blixie. I think they expected Laurel to be loved and that the fans would automatically root for her. Instead, she ended up being divisive from the beginning and they were stumped. Enter Felicity who was not meant to be more than a one-off, but everyone behind the scenes loved her. Once she was exposed to the audience and became more integral to the plot, I think she became what they expected Laurel would be. Felicity is a fan-favorite, I know not everyone likes her, but that doesn't change the fact that she is the most popular woman on the show. 

 

Considering that this character who wasn't meant to be more than a fun Easter egg became everything they assumed Laurel would be, left them in a predicament. Now they had to write something great for Laurel, had to make people want to root for her.I think they thought they were doing that last season. In reality, I think they did the opposite. I saw more people who were on the fence about Laurel just completely give up, and she was panned by reviewers. 

 

To add to their growing list of issues, the temporary Canary became pretty popular. It seems like everything they do with Laurel comes back to haunt them, and this will be no different.

[NumberCruncher]

It's odd how the EPs will say, repeatedly, how they definitely consider what's working with the fans in regards to what they will put on the screen. BUT I think it's only if they happen to agree with the fans. Hence, Diggle is a key component, Felicity is a full blown partner on the team & Oliver's personal life (maybe, hopefully) and Malcolm is Thea's father, not Oliver's.

I think you're spot on here that the producers tend to go along with the fans on the plots/characters that they agree with but don't for others they don't. That's actually healthy though since they're the storytellers and not the fans. That said, even if it's healthy, it may not always be wise since they're still selling a product that the fans have to like. I think they see Laurel as BC as the product they desperately want to sell to the audience so they're plowing ahead as planned believing they can change audience opinion. It may work out for them or it may not and clearly they're willing to take that risk.

So that's what absolutely baffles me about the entire Sara storyline, from the pilot and going forward. Why have ANY of it? Why not give the meatiest Canary bits to Laurel if that was the goal? Because it's no secret that a LOT of fans are turned off by what's happened now. Did the EPs truly think the majority would be thrilled?

I've long said they needed a pretty drastic justification to transform Laurel into BC the vigilante. She didn't have a hellish island like Oliver was on to do it. She had to have someone to both show the way and provide the motivation. What better way to motivate Laurel (who seemed perfectly happy in her current job situation putting criminals behind bars in tandem The Arrow) to go full-on ass-kicking vigilante than to brutally murder her sister right in front of her? What I don't think the EPs anticipated was that the audience would take to the Sara Lance character and actor the way it did to the detriment of their intended BC (Laurel), but by that time it was already too late to change course. Remember that by the time Sara showed up on our TV screens they were already through mid-S2 in filming.

I also do think the EPs feel they have to stick at least minimally to comic canon or else the show can't exist within the Green Arrow/DC universe. Whereas they believe they can get away with deviating from canon by adding non-canon supporting characters (Thea, Diggle, etc.) or altering Oliver's love interests (Felicity), they don't feel they can drastically deviate by replacing iconic main character identities (Dinah/Laurel Lance as Black Canary) with characters who don't even exist in the comics (Sara). As you said, fans may be turned off by what's currently happening, but right or wrong, I get why they're doing it.

ETA: Or basically what @blixie said much more concisely than I did.

Edited October 14, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[blixie]

It will be no different because they've still spent zero time thinking about *who* Laurel should be only about *what* she becomes.  And they don't even care about the becoming part. It sounds like 

Nyssa is going to impressed with Laurel's skills after precisely ONE episode of her training with Ted Grant.

SMDH. Also dear AK, MKG: GTFO.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I think you're right, blixie. I think they expected Laurel to be loved and that the fans would automatically root for her. Instead, she ended up being divisive from the beginning and they were stumped. Enter Felicity who was not meant to be more than a one-off, but everyone behind the scenes loved her. Once she was exposed to the audience and became more integral to the plot, I think she became what they expected Laurel would be. Felicity is a fan-favorite, I know not everyone likes her, but that doesn't change the fact that she is the most popular woman on the show.

Considering that this character who wasn't meant to be more than a fun Easter egg became everything they assumed Laurel would be, left them in a predicament. Now they had to write something great for Laurel, had to make people want to root for her.I think they thought they were doing that last season. In reality, I think they did the opposite. I saw more people who were on the fence about Laurel just completely give up, and she was panned by reviewers.

To add to their growing list of issues, the temporary Canary became pretty popular. It seems like everything they do with Laurel comes back to haunt them, and this will be no different.

I feel the writers stumbled on Felicity but they are cackling "oh the cleverness of me!"

Their intentions have missed the mark consistently. Their unplanned "gifts/Easter eggs/shout outs" often times are met with more fanfare.

[Morrigan2575]

I could see that and it kinds of makes sense with some of their comments.  They said that Sara as Canary was planned/discussed while writing the Pilot and that between S1/S2 they thought about making Sara Raveger instead of Canary.

 

It's quite possible that they expected the audience to love Laurel from the beginning and be invested in her character so that when Sara showed up as Canary it would get the audience excited for Laurel's eventual journey and that Sara's death would cause the audience to feel for Laurel.  We'd feel her pain over losing a sister and her anger and reasons for turning to Viglantism.  We'd support her journey and follow along with her.  However, most of the audience didn't love Laurel in S1, so they might have wavered in their decision to have Sara=Canary because they realized it might backfire.  In the end they obviously went with Sara=Canary so that Laurel=Canary and let the chips fall where they may.  

 

For me (and apparently many others) we're upset that we're losing Sara/Canary not upset for Laurel losing Sara.  So many of us (not all) have grown angry and resentful not only of the action but the manor in which it was conducted.

 

I loved Tommy, he was one of my favorite S1 characters and I still miss him.  When he died I was sad/upset they killed him off, I was angry that he died saving Laurel (who I didn't like and would have preferred to die in Tommy's place) but at the same time, I cared enough about Oliver and about the Tommy/Oliver relationship that when Oliver was crying over Tommy's body I was sad FOR Oliver as well as myself and Tommy.

 

Conversely when Sara died, I was immediately annoyed/angry and resentful, I didn't feel anything for Laurel because I never felt anything for the Sara/Laurel relationship nor for Laurel herself.   I also couldn't help but resent the obvious, while Tommy's death certainly advanced Oliver's journey and gave Oliver a reason to change his killing ways, it didn't feel so blatant.  It didn't feel like it was more about an "out of show" decision than in an show event (not sure if that makes any sense).  The whole action of killing Sara took me right out of the show because the need/reason for killing Sara seemed to be external to the story.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[writersblock51]

 

I also do think the EPs feel they have to stick at least minimally to comic canon or else the show can't exist within the Green Arrow/DC universe. Whereas they believe they can get away with deviating from canon by adding non-canon supporting characters (Thea, Diggle, etc.) or altering Oliver's love interests (Felicity), they don't feel they can drastically deviate by replacing iconic main character identities (Dinah/Laurel Lance as Black Canary) with characters who don't even exist in the comics (Sara). As you said, fans may be turned off by what's currently happening, but right or wrong, I get why they're doing it.

 

I understand what you're saying and I think you're right.  Unfortunately, I disagree with the EPs for thinking they are bound to do things a certain way at this point.

 

The whole 'canon' thing is such a slippery slope that very little can come from trying to hang onto it.  There's only 1 truly canon thing about this show - Oliver Queen is the Green Arrow.  The name, basic rich boy-vigilante bio and archery/martial arts skill set match. And he's white & wears green.  Those are the basics that have stayed put since the character was created about 70 years ago.

 

Everything else can be tweaked. (and probably should, since it's 70 years later....)

 

As for Dinah/Black Canary, this is where things get even more slippery for me.  There are multiple versions of this character from over the years and there are some basic canon properties for her, too - martial arts, wears black, established heroine independent of Oliver. 

 

Even her name has changed though "Dinah" is a constant. 

 

So, in the context of the show, all Laurel has is the name.  That's it.  Sara had everything and more BUT the name.  And do we know what Sara's middle name is?

 

The show could have handled the entire Laurel character differently from the beginning, even getting over the sister swapping mess.  Easiest would have been to not bring in Sara from the dead, as a kick ass fighter & assassin with strong motives for what she now does/did.  Simply don't bring in Sara.  But they did and now they - and we - have this mess.

 

I appreciate that there's insight to why the EPs may feel the way they do. My problem isn't with the insight. My problem is with the EPs who are, IMO, working on a faulty set of assumptions as their foundation.  Now everything they try to build on top of that is destined to be poorly constructed, unstable and inevitably will be damaged badly.

[Morrigan2575]

It's kind of funny though, if they thought they had to stick to Comic Canon why would they ever contemplate making Oliver Malcolm Merlyn's son instead of Robert Queen's?  That seems to me like it would be a huge deviation from comic canon...Oliver Queen not really being Oliver Queen but Oliver Merlyn

[dtissagirl]

So, in the context of the show, all Laurel has is the name.  That's it.  Sara had everything and more BUT the name.  And do we know what Sara's middle name is?

 

In the promo for next week,

her name on the tombstone is just SARA LANCE. You can see it clearly at 8 seconds.

: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVsqk3stDDM

[ohjoy]

They didn't bother giving her a middle name. She wasn't a character to them - just a plot device, a long con to get us to care about Dinah Laurel Lance's journey to becoming BC. (Mission: NOT Accomplished.)

At this point I'm completely torn - I don't want this show to tank, and put SA, DR, EBR, and the other actors I really respect and whose characters I care about out of a job. I want to be able to tune in and enjoy Oliver's journey and his developing relationship with Felicity.

But I do not in any way want to reward the EPs for their despicable handling of Sara Lance. Every bit of her death and "funeral" just screams "WE HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THIS CHARACTER OR HER FANS." I don't want to put up with the obvious bait-and-switch they're doing in regards to Olicity vs. Laurel as BC. I don't care if they are ever impacted by my reticence or not - I do not to continue watching a show when I know that their intention is to force me to sit through the storyline they're hell-bent on showing off while stringing me along for the developments I actually want to see.

Arrow is one of my favorite shows, but I'm seriously contemplating whether the promise of the stories I actually want to see is worth the aggravating pile with which I'm currently being presented. If the EPs are determined to prove that the audience is not the boss of them, fine, but it just makes me want to prove that they're not the boss of me either.

Edited October 14, 2014 by RandomMe

[SonofaBiscuit]

I have to say, while I am definitely NOT OK with Sara dying and the manner in which it was done (nearly falling in a dumpster like garbage, seriously?!), there have been some absolutely hilarious comments since last week's episode.  I'm not laughing at your pain/anger because I feel it too, but the snarky stuff just speaks to my sense of humor.

 

But I do not in any way want to reward the EPs for their despicable handling of Sara Lance. Every bit of her death and "funeral" just screams "WE HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THIS CHARACTER OR HER FANS." I don't want to put up with the obvious bait-and-switch they're doing in regards to Olicity vs. Laurel as BC. I don't care if they are ever impacted by my reticence or not - I do not to continue watching a show when I know that their intention is to force me to sit through the storyline they're hell-bent on showing off while stringing me along for the developments I actually want to see.

 

I'm majorly bitter that I'm going to have to endure crap that I don't want to see just to view that parts of the show that I like.  I don't want to watch this week but I want to see KC's emmy-worthy reaction to her sister's death.  I've decided that I'll tune in this week, but I'll do it in such a way that I don't positively contribute to the ratings at all.  Like you mentioned, I don't want to reward the EPs for how poorly they discarded Sara Lance. 

[NumberCruncher]

Arrow is one of my favorite shows, but I'm seriously contemplating whether the promise of the stories I actually want to see is worth the aggravating pile with which I'm currently being presented. If the EPs are determined to prove that the audience is not the boss of them, fine, but it just makes me want to prove that they're not the boss of me either.

Word to this--especially the last line. I knew Sara would eventually die and was at peace about that inevitability but the premiere was such a shock to me because of how they did it and how fast it was. That smacked of an arrogance and "for your own good" attitude on the part of the writers/producers. That's a huge turn-off for me too and took me from being rather indifferent to Laurel through 2 seasons to resenting her BC trajectory being blatantly shoved in my face like that. I'm not giving the show up yet but they need to tread carefully with me in how they treat the show dynamics going forward because even my love of certain actors (SA, DR, EBR, JB, PB) can't compel me to watch a show that sucks.

[blixie]

What I hated about Sara's death in The Calm is what a juvenile chain yank it was, everyone was expecting her to die in season finale of 2, but HA we're going to set them up on curb and smash their teeth in. FUN. It reminded me of JJ Abrams et all going out of their way to say Cumberbund in Trek

wasn't not really ever going to be Kahn.

HA HA SUCKERS!

 

Fucking with your fanbase, unsuccessful from the beginning of time. There is a persistent belief especially in the internet age that something being "surprising" or "shocking" is in and of it self a value positive in all situations (and freaking spoilerphobes audiences are as guilty as the creators who cater to them). Writers seem to forget that part of telling a story is actually foreshadowing what is to come, to build that anticipation, and then to pay it the fuck off when you get to the climax. Spend more time telling me a good story that makes cohesive sense and less trying to trick me or shock me or fake me out. Maybe then you won't have to flounce off twitter or have your dvd sales take a hit, or even get canceled because you alienated the majority of your audience.

[calliope1975]

I just hope TIIC and KC don't try to sell some amazing sisterly bond that has now been lost. For a lot of reasons, none of which I saw KC portray effectively, Sara and Laurel were not BFFs. Yes, Laurel should absolutely be sad and feel a loss, but I do not want to see some more retconning about how they were the closest sisters ever.

[SmallScreenDiva]

What I hated about Sara's death in The Calm is what a juvenile chain yank it was, everyone was expecting her to die in season finale of 2, but HA we're going to set them up on curb and smash their teeth in. FUN. It reminded me of JJ Abrams et all going out of their way to say Cumberbund in Trek

wasn't not really ever going to be Kahn.

HA HA SUCKERS!

 

Fucking with your fanbase, unsuccessful from the beginning of time. There is a persistent belief especially in the internet age that something being "surprising" or "shocking" is in and of it self a value positive in all situations (and freaking spoilerphobes audiences are as guilty as the creators who cater to them). Writers seem to forget that part of telling a story is actually foreshadowing what is to come, to build that anticipation, and then to pay it the fuck off when you get to the climax. Spend more time telling me a good story that makes cohesive sense and less trying to trick me or shock me or fake me out. Maybe then you won't have to flounce off twitter or have your dvd sales take a hit, or even get canceled because you alienated the majority of your audience.

 

This, especially the part I bolded. A lot of shows are doing this these days. And I just want to go into every single writers room and smack some sense into them.

[olicityfan25]

Hopefully we keep seeing KC leave the set because then we will know how much screen time she'll have for further episodes. I'm so evil rofl

[statsgirl]

Wow, KC is really blonde in that promo.  And the more I heard Oliver say "it's up to me to lead. If I mourn no one else gets to", the more I want to smack him. Repeatedly.

I do agree that they may have thought Jacket + Revenge Motive = Instant Canary

They should have known this wasn't going to work after KC's first few episodes.  If people didn't buy her as a crusading lawyer, they weren't going to buy her as BC without some substantial work.

 

I've long said they needed a pretty drastic justification to transform Laurel into BC the vigilante. She didn't have a hellish island like Oliver was on to do it. She had to have someone to both show the way and provide the motivation. What better way to motivate Laurel (who seemed perfectly happy in her current job situation putting criminals behind bars in tandem The Arrow) to go full-on ass-kicking vigilante than to brutally murder her sister right in front of her? 

I think a better way would have been to put Sara in a com and then in a wheelchair.  It justifies Laurel getting revenge for who hurt her sister. gives Sara a chance to train her sister while making more poignant the Sara backstory, and they've got an Oracle ready if they get a BoP spin-off.

 

 

I could see that and it kinds of makes sense with some of their comments.  They said that Sara as Canary was planned/discussed while writing the Pilot and that between S1/S2 they thought about making Sara Raveger instead of Canary.

I could be recalling incorrectly but I think they said that Sara being alive was planned.  That made me suspect that Sara was going to be Raveger (which makes sense, given what happened to her and the LoA) but then they realized Laurel wasn't ready to be the Black Canary and patted themselves on the back for making Sara Canary as Yao Fei was the first to wear the Hood, or Billy Wintergreen the dual mask.

 

 

I just hope TIIC and KC don't try to sell some amazing sisterly bond that has now been lost. For a lot of reasons, none of which I saw KC portray effectively, Sara and Laurel were not BFFs. Yes, Laurel should absolutely be sad and feel a loss, but I do not want to see some more retconning about how they were the closest sisters ever.

You know they are so totally going to sell that story.  It's the only way they can motivate Laurel because if she didn't turn vigilante for Tommy, why should she for what they've shown us between her and Sara?

[writersblock51]

In my opinion, I don't think there's any part of Laurel's journey going forward that will make sense with what we've seen for 2 seasons.  I know the show WANTS us/me to get on board with what they're selling but they needed to have built it up (they've had long enough to start a good foundation for it) and I don't think they've done that.

 

Looking back on S2 (yes, I watched some S2 clips today, I suppose I'm a masochist), I am now irritated that the show spent so much time on filling in Sara: when she got picked up after the Gambit, becoming Ivo's trusted companion, reuniting with Oliver - talking about their teenage years, her with the pilot (leading us to her and Sin), and then her 2nd 'death.'

 

That was a lot of screen time.  Even at the time, it was considered 'too much' by many people (including myself). 

 

That time could have instead been spent better incorporating Roy into the Team, Felicity backstory (that got shoved to S3 for lack of time to do it right), finding out what happened to Isabel and Blood, and more time spent on Thea.  Perhaps the Laurel stuff wouldn't have been so annoying to deal with if Sara was out of the equation.

 

The show invested heavily in Sara's backstory - and they still plan to add more this season, for reasons that I just do not understand or, frankly, give a rat's a&& about at this point.  Felicity, Diggle and even Roy got sidelined. Isabel and Blood were ignored.

 

Why? 

 

And if the plan had been, about a year ago, to kill Sara off to kick off the 3rd season, then what was the reasoning for all the Sara-Stuff in S2?  I'd rather they spent time working harder at developing Laurel since they are hell bent on her staying.

Edited October 14, 2014 by writersblock51

[Orion]

Looking back the only way I can make sense of the writers giving Sara so much story time is that they get serious new toy syndrome. They had their Green Arrow and Black Canary action figures that they could bring to life on screen and that's what they did. The switching weapons scene was one of my favorite Sara fights scenes but I always got the impression that it was more writers pandering (to use a completely annoying phrase) to themselves.

 

Diggle and Felicity were fun to write for when they were new but when it came time to do the work and flush out those characters, make them real 3D people, more than the actors could achieve by adding nuance themselves, well then it became work and that's not fun. More fun to invent new characters and play with them.

 

Which is my fear with Ray this season.

 

The writers need a parent in the room to tell them if they aren't going to play with their old toys then the parent is going to give those toys to someone who will appreciate them.  Which just made me wish for a Felicity and Diggle open their own detective agency story... I would watch that until the end of time.

[Sakura12]

Conversely when Sara died, I was immediately annoyed/angry and resentful, I didn't feel anything for Laurel because I never felt anything for the Sara/Laurel relationship nor for Laurel herself.

 

Agree with this 100%. Sara dying actually made me angrier at Laurel which I'm sure is the reaction they wanted. 

 

If they did want us to care about Laurel, as we've all said many times they needed to make Laurel a character first, make us care about her first. As for the sisterly relationship, they never even showed Sara and Laurel having an actual conversation about what's happened to them for the past 6 years. They didn't let Sara even respond when Laurel was apologizing to her. Laurel knows nothing about the hell Sara's been through and even after seeing her scarred up body she didn't try to talk to Sara about that. So why am I supposed to care about their sisterly bond when I barely saw them interact with each other as sisters? 

 

If Sin had found Sara's dead body. That scene would've been very emotional for me because I actually saw and bought the family relationship between Sara and Sin. I could even see Sin deciding to honor her dead sister's memory and putting on the outfit. All that can happen because we not only saw their family relationship, we saw Sin helping her with the crime fighting. They spent more time building that relationship up (or the actors did) in less time than Sara and Laurel. So what happened there? 

Edited October 14, 2014 by Sakura12

[Password]

Looking back the only way I can make sense of the writers giving Sara so much story time is that they get serious new toy syndrome. They had their Green Arrow and Black Canary action figures that they could bring to life on screen and that's what they did. The switching weapons scene was one of my favorite Sara fights scenes but I always got the impression that it was more writers pandering (to use a completely annoying phrase) to themselves.

 

Diggle and Felicity were fun to write for when they were new but when it came time to do the work and flush out those characters, make them real 3D people, more than the actors could achieve by adding nuance themselves, well then it became work and that's not fun. More fun to invent new characters and play with them.

 

Which is my fear with Ray this season.

 

The writers need a parent in the room to tell them if they aren't going to play with their old toys then the parent is going to give those toys to someone who will appreciate them.  Which just made me wish for a Felicity and Diggle open their own detective agency story... I would watch that until the end of time.

 

These are my sentiments exactly. I really thought the EPs went "Yes! BC and GA, let's get them together because COMICS!" It went too far and at the cost of my beloved Felicity and Diggle. I wasn't a happy camper, and I desperately wanted the two of them to get their own spin off where smart people make smart decisions. I was so done with what the story was feeding me.

[bravelittletoaster]

A week or so later, with most of the edge off my disappointment with this show I used to watch, I'm still just kind of stymied that they had an actress who could do a fucking salmon ladder and they decided they didn't want her on their super hero show anymore.  Just...like...what?  Priorities, people.  Jesus.

[Lokiberry]

A week or so later, with most of the edge off my disappointment with this show I used to watch, I'm still just kind of stymied that they had an actress who could do a fucking salmon ladder and they decided they didn't want her on their super hero show anymore.  Just...like...what?  Priorities, people.  Jesus.

And that my friends, is why Marvel is kicking DC's ass. There's nobody in charge making rational decisions.

[dtissagirl]

I think the root of all my bitterness is I was looking forward to a whole season that would be lighter in tone, and not just the first 25 minutes of the season. I wasn't expecting Arrow to lose the gritty doomy Nolanesque feeling, but I was expecting more deadpan reactions to the gritty doominess, and that Team Arrow being an well oiled machine would provide the lighter/funnier moments organically.

 

But now that Sara died, I'm 1. dreading Laurel's storyline even more than usual because nothing angsty they've tried with her ever worked for me, and 2. I'm kinda afraid that whatever lighter tone they reach in Felicity's episode, and the Flash crossovers, will look callous [Gods, I really hope not], because the weight of Sara's death will be looming over everything. Which, hey, it *should* be or else the narrative really is super callous, but it's just not the story I was looking forward to.

Edited October 15, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Guest]

I'm feeling especially bitter today because I was fooled into thinking I was watching a show called Arrow, not Black Canary. 

 

I'm sorry but I am really not liking these little spoilers and things coming out about Laurel and her journey. Killing Sara to make Laurel relevant was bad enough and I'm still not over it. And now I have to watch a season of Laurel trying to fill her shoes just because her name is Laurel and comics! 

 

Basically my excitement for this season has fizzled to nothing.

[writersblock51]

@dancingnancy, I'm right there with you.  Heading into tonight's episode, I feel like it's even worse than knowing the Lance Family Drama of 2B was coming - I could actually handle Sara and, of course, I love Quentin.  But this Laurel stuff is just such a turn off that it's ruining my interest in the entire season.

 

As for the IGN interview - KC's comments about her and Stephen's relationship gave me pause. Has she ever talked about their off screen relationship before?  I know she'd commented at one point that she was uncomfortable with sex scenes because he's married (I still don't understand why she's an actress if that's such a problem...) but otherwise, I don't recall either of them talking about off screen stuff.

 

Her comments about if Sara is really dead?  What the heck is that about?  MG said, emphatically, the day after the premiere that Sara was dead - dead.  Not coming back. So why is KC being obtuse?

 

And the Flash crossover.  I'm not surprised by it happening, reasons: Dinah.  But I also wonder how she's going to come into contact with Barry & Co.  Why would she even be involved?  Barry didn't know Sara/BC, right?   My theory is that STAR Labs will help her with a Black Canary outfit - and, if my bitterness continues, it will be a suit that helps her compensate for her utter lack of fighting skills.

 

A few lessons with Ted should not be enough for ANYONE to then take on big bad guys.  No. Just no.

 

Given the backlash about Roy's Miraku'd skill set, I hope the show resists asking the audience to further suspend our disbelief that somehow, after a few 'impressive' training sessions with Ted, Laurel will be ready to go fight alongside Oliver.

 

Other bits that I either eye roll or grit teeth about:

- again with the Soulmates.  Someone needs to tell her NO. STOP USING THAT WORD

 

- "mentally secure" - she can't be serious.  Season 2 was all about showing how she was most definitely not mentally secure.  I'm not sure she could possibly be so after watching Sara's death, either (and it would at least be understandable if she was suffering from PTSD and shock)

 

- Laurel is all that and a bag of chips because she's strong and stands up to Oliver.  Again, being a wishy-washy bitch to him for 2 years does not mean the same thing as standing up to him.  Tommy, Moira, Thea, Sara, and, of course, Diggle, and Felicty (heck even Roy!) have all stood up to him to call him out on his BS.  To me, this kind of chatter from KC means she's not watching the rest of the show.  She thinks only in terms of Laurel to the exclusion of everyone else, including Oliver

 

And still no interviewer is asking her detailed questions about the comic book version of Black Canary and Dinah to find out how she connects them to her take on Laurel.  I'd love someone to ask her "Which version is most like Laurel?"  Because I know the answer - none.  But her answer?  No clue.

 

ETA: I hope Geoff Johns sits KC down and explains that no, Green Arrow most definitely does NOT need Black Canary. Not in the comics, not on the show. And Black Canary doesn't need him. 

 

Her assumptions about how things are in the comics are infuriating because it's patently obvious that she's done zero research into them.  And shame on DC for letting her continue to bring up inaccurate information, repeatedly.  Send her a BC Primer for pete's sake.  Send over an intern to give her a basic breakdown.  ANYTHING.

Edited October 15, 2014 by writersblock51

[SonofaBiscuit]

What I'm bitter about is that everyone keeps saying that Laurel can't become BC overnight, she can't just put on the jacket and go out and fight crime because she'll get herself killed.  Yet, it feels like that's exactly what's going to happen.  From interviews and spoilers, it feels like this is happening this season, with a lot of development coming before the midseason break. 

[writersblock51]

Agreed - the transition seems to be happening very quickly.

[Sakura12]

She's not just going to put on the jacket, she's going to get 2 lessons from a boxer and become a master martial artist because she's just that awesome. Then Nyssa and the LOA will be so impressed with her. Nyssa will tell her she's even better than Sara and also that Sara would be so proud of her for living the life she'll never get too. 

 

Sara's in the garbage they really gotta shove her down to the bottom and pile Laurel's awesomeness on top of the lid so everyone will accept Laurel as the bestest hero ever. 

Edited October 15, 2014 by Sakura12

[JJ928]

See, I'm the opposite. If she's gonna be Canary I say do it. Rip the band-aid right off, lets see her instant transformation. I rather they make her BC fast & go back to ignoring her. When she crashes and burns I'll have a good laugh. I have no interest in having to watch her learn to fight, I rather they transition her and go back to neglecting her. The only thing these writers take into account is reviews, so far very few have been in her favor. I really hope this is a last ditch effort to make her work & or to meet contractual obligations. 

Edited October 15, 2014 by JJ928

[Chaser]

Is no one in the show going to comment on the fact that she starts dressing like her dead sister? Starts fighting like her dead sister? And dyes her hair blonde like her dead sister?

 

Sounds like a case of Single White Female too me. Someone call the psych ward.

[writersblock51]

It's like staff writers from the Onion are responsible for writing Laurel's stuff while the rest of the writing staff takes care of everyone else.

 

Interesting about the 'just do it' theory, @JJ928. I've seen a few people float that elsewhere and there is some merit to it, I suppose. If I thought that the show would have the guts to cut her lose from the show when she crashes and burns (because I don't think there's any other possible outcome), then I'd be all for it.

[apinknightmare]

See, I'm the opposite. If she's gonna be Canary I say do it. Rip the band-aid right off, lets see her instant transformation. I rather they make her BC fast & go back to ignoring her. When she crashes and burns I'll have a good laugh. I have no interest in having to watch her learn to fight, I rather they transition her and go back to neglecting her. The only thing these writers take into account is reviews, so far very few have been in her favor. I really hope this is a last ditch effort to make her work & or to meet contractual obligations. 

 

Yeah, I agree. I don't have any interest in watching Laurel struggle, and I don't have any interest in watching her become insta BC, so I'll take whichever one results in less of her on my screen so I can watch the people I'm actually invested in (or entertained by, of which she is neither).

Edited October 15, 2014 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

Every time KC says anything about the comics I weep. I'm a comic book person. Black Canary in the comics means a great deal to me. The Birds of Prey book means an even greater deal to me. So when she says she hasn't read any comics and then a little while later says stuff like "Green Arrow needs Black Canary", all she's doing is diminishing Dinah to love interest -- just like Andrew Kreisberg did in his awful GA/BC run, and it proves to me once again that the entire concept behind Laurel is Love Interest -- from writer down to actress. And now she's not that anymore, and they *do not know* how to write/act her otherwise.

[Sakura12]

Is no one in the show going to comment on the fact that she starts dressing like her dead sister? Starts fighting like her dead sister? And dyes her hair blonde like her dead sister?

 

Sounds like a case of Single White Female too me. Someone call the psych ward.

 

Isn't Laurel's question "Am I me or am I my sister?". If someone starts thinking they are someone else, they probably need professional help. 

 

Oh how I wish, that Laurel goes crazy thinking she's Sara and they have send to her Arkham and we never see her again. 

Edited October 15, 2014 by Sakura12

[Guest]

Laurel's going to put that black jacket on

in episode 303

and I am going to rage at the sky.

 

It's sickening how they're choosing to do this. Just add one dead sister's jacket and mask to a couple of boxing session, cook for a couple of episodes and enjoy. Insta-Canary.

 

NOPE. 

[Password]

I've noticed something very troubling. Other than getting to know Felicity better, there's nothing about season 3 that has me excited. Oh and Thea's storyline.

They killed wonderful Moira, Oliver is main paining, Laurel is...Laurel. Diggle will be a daddy. But I'm actually unexcited by anything else.

Even Olicity may well only get interesting towards the end of the season. (And you know tumblr has the hook up for that).

[calliope1975]

See, I'm the opposite. If she's gonna be Canary I say do it. Rip the band-aid right off, lets see her instant transformation. I rather they make her BC fast & go back to ignoring her. When she crashes and burns I'll have a good laugh. I have no interest in having to watch her learn to fight, I rather they transition her and go back to neglecting her. The only thing these writers take into account is reviews, so far very few have been in her favor. I really hope this is a last ditch effort to make her work & or to meet contractual obligations. 

 

That's a good point. As stupid as I think it is that Roy's now an insta-ninja, that's because I wanted to see Oliver/Diggle train and mentor him. Since I have zero desire to see any of that with Laurel, I think you're right. Rip that band-aid off. If this show is going to crash and burn like Buffy did, let's just get it over with and I can continue with the far better show that exists in my head.

Edited October 15, 2014 by calliope1975

[JJ928]

Interesting about the 'just do it' theory, @JJ928. I've seen a few people float that elsewhere and there is some merit to it, I suppose. If I thought that the show would have the guts to cut her lose from the show when she crashes and burns (because I don't think there's any other possible outcome), then I'd be all for it.

 

Even if they don't cut her loose, one thing the writers are good at is redundancy. Once she's reached her goal, she can go back to being an occasional player. As it is, she was barely in the premier, looks like she was absent from both crossovers, she's always traveling somewhere so less filming, & most of her scenes are usually cut. Keep her around fine, but I don't expect much to change on that front.