Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[theOAfc]

On 16/2/2017 at 6:19 PM, Featherhat said:

certainly outnumber the people who call her "Felishitty"

The people who call her that are bitter LL stans. 

[statsgirl]

I am so, so , so bored with this season.  There are too many new characters for me  and of the seven, I'm only interested in finding out what happens with Rory and Chase (sorry, Curtis, but you're not fun any more and you take time and roles away from Felicity).

It was bed enough in s3 when it seemed to be all about Ra's and Ray and Malcolm  But this is much worse because I knew Ra's and Ray were going to be gone, and I don't trust that anyone is going to be gone other than Rory and Chase,  the only two I want to stay.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm not sure if my comment should go here or in the Mind Your Surroundings, (if it's the latter, mods please feel free to move), but a lot of the blame for the regression of Oliver I will blame on the writers. The Fuck Up over the ridonkulous sekrit bebe, I will blame not only the writers, but Stephen Amell himself. Someone told me it was his bright idea to have a child since he was a new father himself at the time. If he had only kept his mouth shut, maybe we wouldn't have gotten the disaster of the lying and broken engagement. Or maybe Guggenheim would have come up with something else. Who knows?

I don't see Amell's performance as him playing Oliver as depressed, but more as him going through the motions. Be careful what you wish for, and what not. This is the result. The show and the character of Oliver hasn't recovered from that shitfest.

[way2interested]

13 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I'm not sure if my comment should go here or in the Mind Your Surroundings, (if it's the latter, mods please feel free to move), but a lot of the blame for the regression of Oliver I will blame on the writers. The Fuck Up over the ridonkulous sekrit bebe, I will blame not only the writers, but Stephen Amell himself. Someone told me it was his bright idea to have a child since he was a new father himself at the time. If he had only kept his mouth shut, maybe we wouldn't have gotten the disaster of the lying and broken engagement. Or maybe Guggenheim would have come up with something else. Who knows?

I don't see Amell's performance as him playing Oliver as depressed, but more as him going through the motions. Be careful what you wish for, and what not. This is the result. The show and the character of Oliver hasn't recovered from that shitfest.

SA didn't come up with the idea of Oliver having a kid. Oliver had a secret kid in the comics and the writers decided to make it an Easter egg (to walk it back later probably since the baby mama was white in the show and not white in the comics) in s2 to come back to it later when they wanted to revisit the plot (and then later apparently use it to break Olicity up). SA's idea was how to revisit the kid, meaning either the scene in 108 and/or 208 of Flash, whereas the writers were the ones to decide that they were going to use it for the lying/break-up/BMD plot. SA actually fought against it since he didn't want Oliver to lie to Felicity but lost. The most I blame him for is overly hyping it and his weird favoritism for the plot. So, yeah, mostly blaming the writers.

Still also think that it's not really depression but dissatisfaction and going through the motions. 

[tangerine95]

I think Stephen said that he just came up with the idea of how to introduce the kid or something. But I remember him saying that for the season 3 crossover so I took it to refer to Oliver seeing Samantha in the coffee shop in the flash episode and it's all awkward and foreshadowing.And he talked about how he tried to change one line from the olicity loft scene in 4. 08 so it's more of an omission than a lie so i got the sense that the olicity mess that came from it wasn't really what he wanted.  Idk maybe I missed something else he said about adding to it tho. 

I feel like if SA had more influence we might have actually seen Oliver with the kid other than like 2 scenes because he seemed invested in the being a dad aspect of the storyline, so much that he's seems like he's pretending that's what the storyline was despite Oliver sharing next to no scenes with the actual kid. 

They were probably always going to have both the break up and the kid imo. Combining those two storylines the way they did was just the worst way to go about it. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by tangerine95

[statsgirl]

SA said that it was his idea to have Oliver bump into  Samantha when he's in Central City.  Maybe he also pitched the scene where he sees William and figures it out.  It wasn't his idea for the BMD -- Kreisburg told Anna Hopkins after she filmed her scene in s1 that they would have her back for a real arc.

I think SA was excited to have Oliver be a dad because he's a new dad but I bet that was before he read the scripts.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I think SA was probably all for getting to explore Oliver being a dad, but instead he got to "explore" Oliver telling a lie. 

[weathered1]

I actually wouldn't be surprised if that's part of Stephen's, um, malaise (there's a good word) that we see relatively often on the show. I think the writers/producers may tell him about general story arcs they have planned. He gets excited about some things, maybe offers some suggestions. When it comes time to film the stories, though, the execution of them leaves a lot to be desired, and tends to make Oliver look bad. In short, regardless of what he said about "protecting" his character, I think he's noticeably sick of having Oliver constantly regress and/or be inexplicably self-destructive and/or be mind-bogglingly stupid. I think that's why he's so clearly checked out in certain scenes, e.g., every. single. time. Oliver's with Susan, etc.

[AyChihuahua]

2 hours ago, way2interested said:

SA actually fought against it since he didn't want Oliver to lie to Felicity but lost.

He tried to get the writers to change his flat out lies, "It doesn't matter; it's over," to a lie of omission. So he tried to soften the story.

Tbf, even if he tried I sincerely doubt he has anywhere near enough power to kill that unbelievably stupid storyline, no matter what he did. I do find it VERY ANNOYING that he has since, in a very Steve fashion, repeatedly stated that some form of it was his favorite storyline. He often behaves like a stubborn child, and it's not a good look for a 35-year-old man.

[AyChihuahua]

2 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

...because he seemed invested in the being a dad aspect of the storyline, so much that he's seems like he's pretending that's what the storyline was despite Oliver sharing next to no scenes with the actual kid.

Agreed. In his IMO strange brain that's what the story was actually about, even though in actual Earth reality it was one scene with the little weirdo playing alone in his room with dollies and having zero reaction to a male adult stranger strolling on in to his bedroom to "play with him."

[weathered1]

@AyChihuahua, I've noticed that that's a trait shared by a lot of the writers, producers, showrunners, and Stephen himself - stubborn to the point that it sometimes (or often) seems juvenile in nature. The more stories are bashed, the more they praise them. It's like their way of saying that they're right and the fans/viewers are wrong and just don't appreciate good stories like they do. 

 

re: Stephen's take on that (terrible) story: I wonder if maybe some material was filmed and then cut; some scenes that would've lent some kind of credence to his seeming insistence that it was a story that showed Oliver in dad-mode. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by weathered1

[AyChihuahua]

Just now, weathered1 said:

@AyChihuahua, I've noticed that that's a trait shared by a lot of the writers, producers, showrunners, and Stephen himself - stubborn to the point that it sometimes (or often) seems juvenile in nature. The more stories are bashed, the more they praise them. It's like their way of saying that they're right and the fans/viewers are wrong and just don't appreciate good stories like they do. 

It is an utterly bizarre way to run what is, at the end of the day, a business.

Restaurateur: Customers hate my kidney pie?!? THAT IS ALL I WILL SERVE FROM NOW TO FOREVER!

SO THERE!

3 minutes ago, weathered1 said:

re: Stephen's take on that (terrible) story: I wonder if maybe some material was filmed and then cut; some scenes that would've lent some kind of credence to his seeming insistence that it was a story that showed Oliver in dad-mode. 

I have heard from ppl who claim to know things that they didn't necessarily film additional scenes, but they at least planned for/outlined/contracted for them.

[weathered1]

^^ They're Arrow's version of the Soup Nazi, except in reverse.  (Unless you look at it like "No good stories for you!")

2 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I have heard from ppl who claim to know things that they didn't necessarily film additional scenes, but they at least planned for/outlined/contracted for them.

That makes sense. I think he was excited about the overall story and that's what he's continued to reference (oddly) instead of what was actually shown. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by weathered1

[AyChihuahua]

1 minute ago, weathered1 said:

^^ They're Arrow's version of the Soup Nazi, except in reverse.  (Unless you look at it like "No good stories for you!")

But the Soup Nazi's soups were delicious! If you're going to be an absolute dickwad, you'd better be talented!

(For example, I've watched Geoffrey Zakarian on a few different cooking shows, and always found him to be an arrogant asshole. Then he went and won Iron Chef, so...go ahead and be arrogant, man. Apparently you can back your shit up.)

[tangerine95]

5 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Agreed. In his IMO strange brain that's what the story was actually about, even though in actual Earth reality it was one scene with the little weirdo playing alone in his room with dollies and having zero reaction to a male adult stranger strolling on in to his bedroom to "play with him."

lol yeah I always figured his insistence on it being his favorite storyline ever was that he was talking about his imaginary storyline that was probably all about Oliver being a dad and very connected to his own feelings about being a father. But in reality it was about Oliver being a liar and every scene concerning it was about the lie. 

I was actually suprised at how little he interacted with the kid. It was literally that one scene and in 4. 15 I don't remember him actually even talking to William. Not that I had any interest in seeing that, dad Oliver to a random kid was boring to me, but that's just such a weird choice. I was fully expecting plenty of bonding scenes tbh. 

[way2interested]

2 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

He tried to get the writers to change his flat out lies, "It doesn't matter; it's over," to a lie of omission. So he tried to soften the story.

Tbf, even if he tried I sincerely doubt he has anywhere near enough power to kill that unbelievably stupid storyline, no matter what he did. I do find it VERY ANNOYING that he has since, in a very Steve fashion, repeatedly stated that some form of it was his favorite storyline. He often behaves like a stubborn child, and it's not a good look for a 35-year-old man.

Yeah, I was just kind of generalizing it (i.e. if SA came up with the idea, then why would there be a story of him trying to change anything, even a little?) in his favor since I took it as even SA realizing that Oliver wouldn't outright lie to Felicity. However, yeah, he doesn't have the power to fix it, and it seems he doesn't even have the power to soften it.

Just now, weathered1 said:

I've noticed that that's a trait shared by a lot of the writers, producers, showrunners, and Stephen himself - stubborn to the point that it sometimes (or often) seems juvenile in nature. The more stories are bashed, the more they praise them. It's like their way of saying that they're right and the fans/viewers are wrong and just don't appreciate good stories like they do. 

 Honestly, I've seen this happen to a lot of shows (one show I watched had one of the writers pull out the whole, "You'd be happy with this if your ship was together!" in only s3 as a response to criticism to lazy writing in one episode). It's cringe-y and annoying every time. 

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Yeah, I was just kind of generalizing it (i.e. if SA came up with the idea, then why would there be a story of him trying to change anything, even a little?) in his favor since I took it as even SA realizing that Oliver wouldn't outright lie to Felicity. However, yeah, he doesn't have the power to fix it, and it seems he doesn't even have the power to soften it.

I really don't blame him for that storyline at all. I blame him for a couple things this season, but I think that crapfest was part of the five-year plan that would have made some sense with Laurel, and I don't believe he had anywhere near enough power to kill it. I do blame him a little for being a baby about it afterwards, but mostly I blame Guggie, Berlanti, and Kreisberg.

[insomniadreams88]

The William storyline was a complete mess because they basically figured, "kid kidnapped. You will care because it's a kid." But we didn't see anything that would make us care about William. The kid was stupid. (Guess it fits with Oliver his father.) His mom was stupid and instead of telling him, "don't play with/go off with strangers," she thought pretending Oliver was some random man coming over to spend time with him (apparently multiple times with that going to CC line) was a good idea.

If they hadn't been so insistent on breaking up O/F, we could have had Oliver tell Felicity about him and then maybe at least gotten a conversation or two of Oliver telling Felicity about spending time with his son/worrying about the wrong person (Malcolm, Darhk) finding out before 415. Then maybe I would've cared about the kid. Or at least the kid as related to Oliver. 

There have been episodes of Criminal Minds involving kids where I've cared about what happened to them more than I did William. And they made this kid the main character's son versus a one-off character on a procedural drama. 

There really is no defending that storyline and I can't stand that anyone thinks it was good. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by insomniadreams88
Typo: one-off not one-of

[AyChihuahua]

4 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

There have been episodes of Criminal Minds involving kids where I've cared about what happened to them more than I did William. And they made this kid the main character's son versus a one-of character on a procedural drama. 

Yeah, I don't like kids, and I have never found any show that's not about kids to be improved by the addition of kids. IMO the whole secret kid bullshit was shown to be a DISASTER at least as far back as Gilmore Girls and/or Berlanti's own Everwood. But, there was a kid on a recent episode of Lethal Weapon...Riggs had to protect the kid of a waitress while she was in the hospital. It worked for me. I think partly because the kid wasn't a weirdo moron played by an entirely untalented child actor, but mostly because I pretty much knew right away he was a one and done. They did absolutely everything wrong with Li'l Willy. He was the dumbest kid I have ever seen on tv, weird, played by someone untalented, with a horrible lying gold-digging hag of a mother, and an obvious setup to ruin a relationship I liked. How they figured any of that would work I will never understand.

[JenMD]

Three days.  It took me three days to get around to watching the most recent episode.  There was a time that I was sitting in front of my tv at 7:59 all, "is it time yet??".  That eventually turned in to starting it late so I could fast-forward the flashbacks.  And now I can't even watch it without reading what horrors await first (many thanks to those of you posting in the live thread).  But this is the first time that, after Lethal Weapon and Speechless, I told my sister to skip Arrow and we watched The Magicians and something else instead.  Seriously, we tape at least 8 shows on Wednesday nights (it's so weird, we tape almost nothing on Mon/Tues), so I just don't have the patience to sit through the nonsensical tripe Arrow is trying to pass off as entertainment.  How did it all go so wrong??  I mean, I know the showrunners are incompetent hacks and the show has always had its storytelling issues, but this season has just been so awful. 

So bitter.  So very bitter.

[weathered1]

I know people routinely say this, and now it's my turn: I can't wait for the bts tell all book about this show. Surely, someone will write one at some point given how vocal and aggressive with their opinions so many people connected to this show are. It needs to cover everything from the disastrous (imo) KC casting, the wildly inappropriate sibling chemistry in the first season, their insistence on telling stories that don't have a single ounce of redeeming value (like the BMD catastrophe), their stubbornness when it comes to pushing characters and stories that are nearly universally abhorred, the network's terrible job at promoting the show (especially now and in the not too distant past), why it seems like some in power have decided to actively loathe Olicity, how many stories were pitched one way but were radically changed by the time they got to the screen, whatever led to Willa's drastically reduced episode count/screentime, how many decisions exactly were made from people higher up the food chain that the showrunners and producers couldn't fight, why Stephen thinks it's okay to phone in his performances when he doesn't like something, and the list goes on and on and on. I would read the hell out of that book. 

[kismet]

1 hour ago, AyChihuahua said:

SO THERE!

I do believe they put that line in the most recent script - specifically about Susan. So yeah, for me that's Arrow's new motto.

____

Sadly, I would have been very interested in an OQ as a father storyline. I actually believe having the kid be in CC was an actual perk, because then we could have avoided the weekly nuisance of children on TV. Win-Win, OQ is a father, but we're not stuck with poorly written kids stories. I do generally like seeing parental relationships on TV, especially with well cast relationships (FTR, Williams was NOT well cast). However, they can turn badly so quickly with younger actors, that again - I'm not in favor of it on general basis as regular cast members. But this was the perfect set-up. Few nights stands, so OQ legitimately had no clue. Another home city for the kid. It was all going so well, until the writers f##ked it up. I'm actually bitter I never got to see it, but was rather tortured with BMD storyline.

The sad and embittering part of BMD was I'm not even that beholden to a strict definition of lying, so I was in the minority that was probably OK with how OQ handled the situation until we got to the MM part of the story when I was out.  And yet somehow, they turned me bitter about the whole storyline. That takes a lot of bad skills to take one of the minority who is in favor of your story and turn me so against it.

[thegirlsleuth]

I think they had a slightly different trajectory planned for the baby mama drama story. I start by assuming the following:  this storyline came about during the five-year-plan when Oliver was supposed to be with Laurel.  Think about how much weight the story would have had if Oliver had achieved a sort of redemption, found a way to be both the Arrow and Oliver, and had become a better man and earned back Laurel's love and then wham! the wreckage of his past terrible cheating behavior comes up and he doesn't want to tell Laurel because it will ruin everything they have now.  I'm sure that Laurel would have broken up with him for the lying and not for the kid, and it would have been very dramatic and exciting when they got back together, probably with Oliver visiting his son.

However, with Oliver and Felicity, they had to contort themselves to find a reason that Oliver would lie to her about this, therefore Baby Mama saying "You can't tell anyone or you will lose your son." I don't think they anticipated how much people would immediately see through their terrible storytelling immediately.  There was very little sympathy for Oliver, and people generally didn't accept that he had to lie--he wasn't between a rock and hard place, and he could have told Felicity in bed at any time, with baby mama none the wiser. But when people tore into Guggenheim and Oliver for being an idiot--I remember him snapping back on twitter that night in a pretty nasty way--I think they triaged.  I think they backed away from the lie as the reason for the breakup and refocused on the weaker "you don't include me in your decisions" plot so people didn't start focusing on how stupid it was for Oliver to lie.  I think that they would have shown some scenes of Oliver being a dad, going to central city but being terribly guilty about it, but realized that the optics of leaving his fiancé in her wheelchair to go on a visit he's lying to her about looked awful.  And I think the only reason they put Felicity in a wheelchair was so that she could stand and walk out on him dramatically.  The ONLY reason.

They could have done a bigger correction after Oliver's lie wasn't well received.  It makes me a little sad, because I think their terrible storytelling and how they doubled down on it was the beginning of the end. I think they could have gone 10 seasons, but will now go 6 or 7 and be over.

[thegirlsleuth]

1 hour ago, weathered1 said:

I know people routinely say this, and now it's my turn: I can't wait for the bts tell all book about this show. Surely, someone will write one at some point given how vocal and aggressive with their opinions so many people connected to this show are. It needs to cover everything from the disastrous (imo) KC casting, the wildly inappropriate sibling chemistry in the first season, their insistence on telling stories that don't have a single ounce of redeeming value (like the BMD catastrophe), their stubbornness when it comes to pushing characters and stories that are nearly universally abhorred, the network's terrible job at promoting the show (especially now and in the not too distant past), why it seems like some in power have decided to actively loathe Olicity, how many stories were pitched one way but were radically changed by the time they got to the screen, whatever led to Willa's drastically reduced episode count/screentime, how many decisions exactly were made from people higher up the food chain that the showrunners and producers couldn't fight, why Stephen thinks it's okay to phone in his performances when he doesn't like something, and the list goes on and on and on. I would read the hell out of that book. 

I used to want Colton to write this, but Willa would be my new #1 choice. Maybe we can do a kickstarter?

[Sasha]

It's 3:30 am and I can't sleep. I have the last three episodes on dvr and still I am watching any other junk left on the dvr instead of Arrow. I keep following the threads looking for a glimmer of hope that my show is back. When TNT runs old episodes I turn the channel. Too hard to watch how far the show has fallen.

I don't know if they brought Olicity back if I would watch again. The writers have made me dislike Oliver so much I don't want them together. I did see the scene in season one again where Felicity brings Oliver the book Walter gave her and she asks if she can trust him. I'm thinking oh hell no girl run away. He is going to fuck up your life. I think I've quit the show for good. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

5 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

 

There have been episodes of Criminal Minds involving kids where I've cared about what happened to them more than I did William. And they made this kid the main character's son versus a one-off character on a procedural drama. 

There really is no defending that storyline and I can't stand that anyone thinks it was good. 

Most of those episodes involving kids make me feel like crying. I think it's because there they write and act them in a realistic way while William was basically a walking and talking plot point. He wasn't even scared when he was with Darhk and in his scene with Oliver he acted like a toddler more than a kid his age. It was so bizarre I don't think I was able to view him as a real kid but only as the worst plot point in the history of plot points.

[theOAfc]

5 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I think they had a slightly different trajectory planned for the baby mama drama story. I start by assuming the following:  this storyline came about during the five-year-plan when Oliver was supposed to be with Laurel.  Think about how much weight the story would have had if Oliver had achieved a sort of redemption, found a way to be both the Arrow and Oliver, and had become a better man and earned back Laurel's love and then wham! the wreckage of his past terrible cheating behavior comes up and he doesn't want to tell Laurel because it will ruin everything they have now.  I'm sure that Laurel would have broken up with him for the lying and not for the kid, and it would have been very dramatic and exciting when they got back together, probably with Oliver visiting his son.

 

I agree. This was a storyline that they came up with when they had L/O in mind as the show's main love story/endgame. But because things changed they tried to forced this storyline anyway,and ended up making a huge pile of shit that they probably regret writing. There was literally no point in doing this drama with Olicity. 

[dtissagirl]

6 hours ago, weathered1 said:

why Stephen thinks it's okay to phone in his performances when he doesn't like something

If SA is phoning in the stuff he doesn't like? The last 3 episodes we saw were directed by noob directors. In the next 10 episodes, there are another 5 or so noobs coming in. And a couple of name directors who are first timers on this set. And... The actor/performance part of directing on a five year show is down to minor adjustments. The directors assume the actors know their characters inside and out, and someone who would like to be called back to that set will definitely not go to the star of the show and tell him he's sleeping on the job.

LOL.

[Belinea]

The problem that I have with this season, is that to me, it doesn't have any emotional  connection to the previous seasons apart from 'Laurel was the best ever'. There is so much disconnect in their attempt to get back viewers that they not only didn't get those viewers back by bringing in comic characters nobody cared about but they lost people who were watching the show the last four seasons by bringing in characters nobody cares about and sidelining everything else, retconning the last four years and leaving the emotional beats to other shows. 

As an example: Oliver and Susan.... Oliver comes off as a complete idiot, while the purpose of Susan is yet to be determined. Is she good? Is she bad? Nothing indicates which direction she might swing. We are made to believe she is up to no good which then makes Oliver seem foolish for trusting her. Are we supposed to root for them as a couple? Are we supposed to root for him finding out about what she is doing? Are we supposed to be excited about finding out whether she is good or bad? What exactly is the purpose of such a storyline? Why are these people a couple? At first I believed she is merely there as an aid to get Oliver to move on, so he is open for a new relationship with Tinah or another relationship with Felicity down the line. But at the moment, they are seriously playing the 'girlfriend' angle while mocking their writing at the same time via one of their characters. What is that supposed to tell the viewer? They know nobody cares but they don't care?

To have a show, you have to have viewers who care. I doubt people watched for years only to be presented with new characters and no emotions behind them. You have to get people to care because nobody comes back because they dig stunts. That might be cool but if you don't care about Oliver, why would you care about a stunt. They tried so hard to right something that they completely lost focus on the fact that they got thrown of the ship on the other side.

Not even the actors seem especially happy to talk about the show these days. I mean, SA makes it easy to contact him directly, but I guess at some point even he has had enough of people being unhappy.

[kismet]

10 hours ago, weathered1 said:

why Stephen thinks it's okay to phone in his performances when he doesn't like something, and the list goes on and on and on.

I'm phoning in my performance as a viewer, so sounds about right. It's actually reassuring to me that he is phoning it in, provides a glimmer of hope something may change in s6 instead of providing kerosene to the firestorm shit show Arrow has become. I agree with a lot of your list, and my list goes on and on too.

9 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

They could have done a bigger correction after Oliver's lie wasn't well received.  It makes me a little sad, because I think their terrible storytelling and how they doubled down on it was the beginning of the end. I think they could have gone 10 seasons, but will now go 6 or 7 and be over.

I do agree they have probably lost seasons because of the failure to correctly assess the failures of that storyline and fix it. Sadly, I'm not even bitter if the show only goes to 6 or 7. And I know a few years ago, I would have been bummed and bitter that the show came to a premature ending. Now I realize, I might have already witnessed the beginning of the end and ironically I feel nothing. Apathy is the true danger to any fandom and I think Arrow may be getting there sooner than they ever imagined.

[AyChihuahua]

13 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I think they had a slightly different trajectory planned for the baby mama drama story. I start by assuming the following:  this storyline came about during the five-year-plan when Oliver was supposed to be with Laurel.  Think about how much weight the story would have had if Oliver had achieved a sort of redemption, found a way to be both the Arrow and Oliver, and had become a better man and earned back Laurel's love and then wham! the wreckage of his past terrible cheating behavior comes up and he doesn't want to tell Laurel because it will ruin everything they have now.  I'm sure that Laurel would have broken up with him for the lying and not for the kid, and it would have been very dramatic and exciting when they got back together, probably with Oliver visiting his son....IT 

And I think the only reason they put Felicity in a wheelchair was so that she could stand and walk out on him dramatically.  The ONLY reason.

They could have done a bigger correction after Oliver's lie wasn't well received.  It makes me a little sad, because I think their terrible storytelling and how they doubled down on it was the beginning of the end. I think they could have gone 10 seasons, but will now go 6 or 7 and be over.

The storyline would have made perfect sense for O/L AND he wouldn't even have necessarily had to lie to Laurel, bc she would have every right to be upset about the kid's existence as a reminder of his cheating ways. But if they did still have him lie I agree it'd be more understandable. One of my big problems is that BM's reasoning/behavior were nonsensical and grotesque, especially coming from someone who slept with her good friend's boyfriend, lied for years, took money to lie, berated Oliver for knocking her up, and was gross and selfish and hateful to tell him to lie to Felicity. None of that was necessary! Once you decided to leave O/L behind, write the S2 flashback with Moira threatening her instead of bribing her. Have O/L having been on a break, or have the girl be someone who didn't follow celebrity gossip and had no idea Oliver had a girlfriend. Have her act at least a little sorry for lying, say she felt bad about depriving Oliver of knowing his kid but she had been scared to death of Moira (which we'd all buy...Moira was scary). Ffs don't have Oliver be cool with other people finding out. There was no plot/character reason Thea had to find out, or Oliver had to know that MM knew. Thea found out bc Guggie wanted to use her as his mouthpiece, and Oliver had to know that MM knew bc...? (I have literally no idea. It made Oliver look not only absolutely moronic, but possibly psychotic, and furthered zero storylines.)

I mostly agree with you on the wheelchair, but I also think they wanted a nod to Oracle, bc it's "cool." When in the actual show, it made everything EVEN WORSE, bc this was all happening when Felicity was newly paralyzed. So turn your hero into lying cowardly scum, and THEN turn him into lying cowardly scum WHILE HIS FIANCEE IS NEWLY PARALYZED.

I seriously think the writers and EPs need to go outside and talk to actual Earthlings. Preferably not in L.A.

Edited February 19, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[insomniadreams88]

My main problem with Felicity's paralysis storyline is it was never really about her - and I think they made that very obvious when we didn't even see her reaction to finding out she'd never walk again. Instead, it became about Oliver hitting the streets, Felicity talking to him about that when he (finally) visited her in the hospital, Curtis first being called "terrific" and finally her getting up and walking out during the breakup scene. 

It all seems to be part of this whole "Felicity doesn't like to talk about things" they seem to have written into the show so that they can use it as an excuse to not write her POV. We see it over and over again - her paralysis, the breakup, her father, 509, etc. But the thing is, most of the time, we as an audience have to assume this while onscreen we just don't see it and then get odd behavior like we saw in 508. 

[LeighAn]

18 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

My main problem with Felicity's paralysis storyline is it was never really about her - and I think they made that very obvious when we didn't even see her reaction to finding out she'd never walk again. Instead, it became about Oliver hitting the streets, Felicity talking to him about that when he (finally) visited her in the hospital, Curtis first being called "terrific" and finally her getting up and walking out during the breakup scene. 

It all seems to be part of this whole "Felicity doesn't like to talk about things" they seem to have written into the show so that they can use it as an excuse to not write her POV. We see it over and over again - her paralysis, the breakup, her father, 509, etc. But the thing is, most of the time, we as an audience have to assume this while onscreen we just don't see it and then get odd behavior like we saw in 508. 

Positive spin I think it's responses like this that they've tried to change this season with her dark arch by not having Oliver so involved in her journey down the rabbit hole, so it's more focused on her autonomy as a character. 

Its just unfortunate that Felicitys storyline this season is the perfect set up to make Oliver a bigger part and a supporting player in her plot line.

[calliope1975]

2 hours ago, Belinea said:

As an example: Oliver and Susan.... Oliver comes off as a complete idiot, while the purpose of Susan is yet to be determined. Is she good? Is she bad? Nothing indicates which direction she might swing. We are made to believe she is up to no good which then makes Oliver seem foolish for trusting her. Are we supposed to root for them as a couple? Are we supposed to root for him finding out about what she is doing? Are we supposed to be excited about finding out whether she is good or bad? What exactly is the purpose of such a storyline? Why are these people a couple? At first I believed she is merely there as an aid to get Oliver to move on, so he is open for a new relationship with Tinah or another relationship with Felicity down the line. But at the moment, they are seriously playing the 'girlfriend' angle while mocking their writing at the same time via one of their characters. What is that supposed to tell the viewer? They know nobody cares but they don't care?

I don't know what Sues' point is if she's not sticking around. Say, they do a gotcha and she's not bad. Okay, then what? Say they do what all the writing points to and she is bad. Okay. Then what? TIIC haven't made her sympathetic. They haven't made her relevant. She's just there annoying a lot of people. I've resigned myself that the writing is not going to get any better. I will, however, forever be annoyed and bitter when the inevitable defensive and snarky comments, interviews, etc. come out when they are rightly called on this being a terrible, disjointed, pointless season. 

Regarding Felicity's paralysis, I think it was also done because they wanted to do Oracle, DC wouldn't let them, but by God, they were going to do it anyway. In their usual terribad way.

[theOAfc]

1 hour ago, insomniadreams88 said:

My main problem with Felicity's paralysis storyline is it was never really about her - and I think they made that very obvious when we didn't even see her reaction to finding out she'd never walk again. Instead, it became about Oliver hitting the streets, Felicity talking to him about that when he (finally) visited her in the hospital, Curtis first being called "terrific" and finally her getting up and walking out during the breakup scene. 

It all seems to be part of this whole "Felicity doesn't like to talk about things" they seem to have written into the show so that they can use it as an excuse to not write her POV. We see it over and over again - her paralysis, the breakup, her father, 509, etc. But the thing is, most of the time, we as an audience have to assume this while onscreen we just don't see it and then get odd behavior like we saw in 508. 

Υeah totally. It was done for the twist and in my opinion for the nod to Oracle. Even this year,seems to me that her stroyline is a convenient way to simply disconnect her from the main event and have the newbies take more focus and bond with the lead. If what Wendy teased is true,i fear they will use her "dark" arc to have her understand Oliver's lies last season and i would hate this.

After ignoring the great potential both her paralysis condition and the Havernock twist could provide for a well thought storyline,im convinced the writers dont care to actually explore her character .

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm not sure if he was hired for this season, or if he has always been a part of the writing staff (the latter, I doubt, because I REMEMBER his name and hated every episode he wrote), but I did a lot of Face Palming when I saw the name of Speed Weed! I first heard of this guy when I used to watch Law & Order: SVU, and all the episodes he wrote, were atrocious and horrid. Whose bright idea was it to hire his hacky ass?

[Starfish35]

I admit I haven't been keeping track of the writers lately.  Which episodes has he written for Arrow?

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Which episodes has he written for Arrow?

- Fighting Fire with Fire (2017) 

- Second Chances (2017) 

- The Recruits (2016) 

- Monument Point (2016) 

- Unchained (2016) 

- Brotherhood (2015) 

- Restoration (2015) 

[dtissagirl]

He wrote 2 episodes of Berlanti's Political Animals, then he got staffed into Arrow in S4.

[kismet]

1 hour ago, theOAfc said:

After ignoring the great potential both her paralysis condition and the Havernock twist could provide for a well thought storyline,im convinced the writers dont care to actually explore her character .

I began to believe this in s3 when her entire cool storyline they promoted was a weekly "All about Ray" sideshow. Even her own work on the Atom suit was dropped and never mentioned - it was all RP's work & genius. The one good thing about that SL is that they gave her a decent job promotion worthy of her talents, that they stripped away the moment they could for ridiculous plot purposes. Their failures at paralysis and Havenrock were expected, I wanted to believe something different but the reality was there the entire time I was just too blinded by hope to see it.

I fully believe that have no intention of exploring anyone's characters, which is why they kill off so many characters and bring in so many newbies all the time. They are scared that once they start exploring the characters they might have to change their lightweight connect the dot plots. They did it with every other character, FS is no exception to their inability to write depth & character development. I love the characters. I love to see character development and depth. I used to think that Arrow Writers Room would get it together - the earlier seasons were packed with so much potential. But now I know that they don't have the same priorities or loves that I have. They love plot and action. They love playing superheroes with paper dolls in their bedrooms. They are William personified - playing with dolls, coloring with Bad Guys, completely oblivious to well everything.

I'm not going to expect coherent & deep exploration into the characters. I think we have seen the extent of FS's dark arc. All that is left for them to is to get it back to it's FOR PLOT explanation. I fully expect a ridiculous resolution that is somehow both stupid and insulting, while also being poorly written. The one saving grace will be EBR's acting, but even that may not save whatever shit show is in store for the audience.

Edited February 19, 2017 by kismet
spelling

[Starfish35]

10 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

- Fighting Fire with Fire (2017) 

- Second Chances (2017) 

- The Recruits (2016) 

- Monument Point (2016) 

- Unchained (2016) 

- Brotherhood (2015) 

- Restoration (2015) 

Thanks.

Restoration - good as best I can remember, except for the Laurel digging up Sara part.  But I admit my memory is foggy.

Brotherhood - not good

Unchained - I thought it was alright, but I might be biased because it had the return of Roy.  

Monument Point - not good

The Recruits - didn't watch

Second Chances - could have been better

Fighting Fire With Fire - yet to air.

**my own opinions only.

[Morrigan2575]

20 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

- Fighting Fire with Fire (2017) 

- Second Chances (2017) 

- The Recruits (2016) 

- Monument Point (2016) 

- Unchained (2016) 

- Brotherhood (2015) 

- Restoration (2015) 

Did not watch Second Chances

Brotherhood wasn't very good 

The Recruits and Unchained were good episodes

 Loved Restoration (the SC stuff was great) and Monument Point (fantastic episode).

He has a very good track record with me.

[theOAfc]

56 minutes ago, kismet said:

I fully believe that have no intention of exploring anyone's characters, which is why they kill off so many characters and bring in so many newbies all the time.

They simply cant give a fleshed out storyline that actually honors the characters which is why they just introduce new characters that they give small filler episodes that are pretty much repeated tropes. Next season Wild Dog,Curtis and even Dinah will have nothing new to offer to the show ,as the show lacks any kind of creativity to make them interesting and they will be viewed by most as just one more mask out of the many that passed from this show. 

[weathered1]

Reading the above posts, it does strike me that another huge problem this show has is that the writers have a wealth of material inherent in the characters that we see, but for a vast majority of them, they're unwilling to actually explore and capitalize on any of it. They treat most of the characters like set pieces - things to advance a plot, add to Oliver's manpain, and/or drum up momentary interest. They don't seem interested in fully fleshing them out or doing justice to any of their stories that may show up briefly before they're scuttled and forgotten. Felicity is a good example of that, in terms of the paralysis, etc. Another example is or could be Dinah (and I say this as someone who likes her): they introduce her, just give her the BC characteristics, and basically make her into paint-by-numbers superhero without fully fleshing that out (beyond the material regarding Vince, etc.). Others in this forum have offered excellent suggestions re: how she got her fighting skills, etc. - suggestions that would humanize her and make sense, but those are things in which the writers don't seem to be interested. 

We can also look at Susan as being a perfect example of this: we don't have any idea what her purpose is, nor do we know if she's good or bad, because they're not writing her as a character - they're writing her to advance whatever plot they pull out of . . . thin air. That's a great way to get people to not give a damn about her, or even actively loathe her (as I do), and it's also a great way to pretty much waste a large portion of an entire season on a plot that a vast majority of people don't like, don't understand, and don't have any interest in watching.

They write for plot, not for people. And this is the result of that: viewers who are increasingly frustrated, perplexed, and losing hope. 

re: actors phoning in performances - I'll refer back to SA in particular, though I think it could be argued that at various points, some of the other actors have seemed over it, too. I actually think that he's more talented than he's generally given credit for: creating so many versions of the same character - pre-island, on the island, and post-island Oliver, etc. - versions that have clear and distinct differences, is not something that one could do without having some skill. The problem, as I see it, is that he lets his personal feelings re: the stories and even sometimes even his scene partner(s) bleed through. That's held true for most of the show's run - I'm thinking specifically about his scenes with KC, though I know some would disagree - but this season, it seems to be the rule, rather than the exception. For example, we're told that Oliver is "serious" about Susan, but we don't see that because Stephen is checked out in those scenes (which is not to say that I'd prefer to see him actually putting in the work, because the "story" itself doesn't even merit it).

That is heartening in terms of seeing that he can recognize when storylines are problematic (regardless of what he may say to the contrary), but I'm less optimistic that that means anything will change in terms of the storylines getting better. It could be his way of rebelling, or he could be getting to a point where he's just tired of it all. I'd suspect that directors, especially the new ones, don't want to make waves and won't say anything as long as the material is passable. Regardless, it does make already terrible stories even worse, and it also isn't going to do him any favors when he looks to get work post-Arrow, imho. 

[EmilyBettFan]

On 2/19/2017 at 1:15 AM, thegirlsleuth said:

I used to want Colton to write this, but Willa would be my new #1 choice. Maybe we can do a kickstarter?

We gotta do it after the show is done completely or else they might put in a clause if they knew there's people out there wanting a tell all. LOL

[kismet]

3 minutes ago, EmilyBettFan said:

We gotta do it after the show is done completely or else they might put in a clause if they knew there's people out there wanting a tell all. LOL

Depending on the show's budget next year, who knows maybe TPTB might be needing some spare cash to write their Action Hero Barbie Plot by Numbers. They might be willing to spill some secrets for a price.

[EmilyBettFan]

I won't believe their side! I need Emily, Willa or David to write it. 

[CooperTV]

On 19.02.2017 at 10:15 AM, thegirlsleuth said:

I used to want Colton to write this, but Willa would be my new #1 choice. Maybe we can do a kickstarter?

Colton also owns me Teen Wolf tell-all because it's even bigger BTS mess, and he jumped the ship because of that. Colton, I'm counting on you, man!

[tv echo]

16 hours ago, kismet said:

I fully believe that have no intention of exploring anyone's characters, which is why they kill off so many characters and bring in so many newbies all the time. They are scared that once they start exploring the characters they might have to change their lightweight connect the dot plots. They did it with every other character, FS is no exception to their inability to write depth & character development. I love the characters. I love to see character development and depth. I used to think that Arrow Writers Room would get it together - the earlier seasons were packed with so much potential. But now I know that they don't have the same priorities or loves that I have. They love plot and action. They love playing superheroes with paper dolls in their bedrooms. They are William personified - playing with dolls, coloring with Bad Guys, completely oblivious to well everything.

14 hours ago, weathered1 said:

Reading the above posts, it does strike me that another huge problem this show has is that the writers have a wealth of material inherent in the characters that we see, but for a vast majority of them, they're unwilling to actually explore and capitalize on any of it. They treat most of the characters like set pieces - things to advance a plot, add to Oliver's manpain, and/or drum up momentary interest. They don't seem interested in fully fleshing them out or doing justice to any of their stories that may show up briefly before they're scuttled and forgotten. Felicity is a good example of that, in terms of the paralysis, etc. Another example is or could be Dinah (and I say this as someone who likes her): they introduce her, just give her the BC characteristics, and basically make her into paint-by-numbers superhero without fully fleshing that out (beyond the material regarding Vince, etc.). Others in this forum have offered excellent suggestions re: how she got her fighting skills, etc. - suggestions that would humanize her and make sense, but those are things in which the writers don't seem to be interested.

Exhibit A has to be Billy Malone. We never learned how he and Felicity met or started dating, or anything at all about his character other than he was a good cop and a good guy (oh, we did learn that he hadn't dated anyone for awhile before Felicity). He was a plot point, period.

Edited February 20, 2017 by tv echo

[Kymmi]

Are there any episodes coming up that sound interesting?  I haven't seen the last 3 or 4 and haven't read much that makes me want to change that.  I saw the promo for this week - is Felicity even still on this show?