Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Ceylon5]

Did this website even exist in season 2?  Or did you mean the internet in general?

[Sakura12]

9 minutes ago, Ceylon5 said:

Did this website even exist in season 2?  Or did you mean the internet in general?

This forum opened in 2012. Season 2 of Arrow was in 2014. Most of us migrated over here around Feb/March 2014 when TWOP closed. But yes, I meant here and other places. My main point is Felicity is just getting it now when other characters got it in previous seasons.

Laurel is still on my list of characters I hate. Even though she's dead I can't escape her saintly presence. I hope she's barely mentioned next season on any of the shows. 

Edited May 27, 2016 by Sakura12

[Ceylon5]

4 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

This forum opened in 2012.

What happened to all the pre-2014 posts?  I don't recall seeing any threads that pre-date about March 2014, so I just assumed that's when the website got up and running.

[Sakura12]

I don't think people posted much in here until after TWOP closed. Even in March the Sara complaints were still going strong, it started on TWOP then came over here. Felicity is just feeling the heat for Season 4. We always need someone to blame when Felicity was far from the issues with Arrow this season. But the more tragic trend is it's mostly always the women being blamed. 

For me I put a lot of the blame on Oliver. He's the one acting like a dumbass most of the time. If they are going to say it's PTSD then they need to send Oliver to go get some help. 

Edited May 27, 2016 by Sakura12

[way2interested]

46 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I am tired of the double standard when it comes to complaints about Felicity

I'm just also tired about certain complaints being repeated over and over again that at this point I think have lost a lot of their meanings. Like, I feel bad because once I see certain arguments brought up, it kind of nullifies almost their entire argument to me, as I'm sure mentioning shipping Olicity or even liking Felicity nullifies my argument to them. I'm not talking criticism (ex: the pacing is off, character motivations are muddled/off, opinions on plot/execution), I'm just talking straight up statements that are meant to sum up all of the problems of Arrow but just fizzle out for me because of the extreme generalization. 

Stuff like, "Arrow is just Batman," "Arrow is fan-service now," "Arrow should just do x/y/z, like Flash," "Arrow should be more like the comics," "Arrow is a soap opera now," or now my favorite ones, "Olicity/Felicity is taking over the show" and "Arrow was the best in s1/s2." There are certain merits to these thoughts, like are there elements of s1/s2 that the show can look at to try to get back to basics? Can the show balance and execute its drama in a more organic and balanced way? But to water down the arguments to the statements above just ruins all discussion for me. Until I can tell that there's a structured argument beyond extreme generalization (really? Felicity is a majorly hated character now?) or extreme nostalgia glasses (really? There were no problems with s1/s2 you can remember at all?), then I just don't know what to say/think in response. 

The statements will always be out there and there's nothing I can do to stop them other than just not care anymore and just keep watching the show that I like, but it doesn't mean that I'm not going to cringe every time I see/hear it. (RL story: One of my best friends, who doesn't do online fandoms, who only watches Arrow in binges during hiatuses hasn't started s4 yet, and when I asked her why not she told me that her boyfriend said that the show turned into "Felicity and Friends," to which I almost fell out of my chair because 1) not really true and once again extreme generalization and 2) I couldn't believe that that was something people were actually saying in real life.)  

[Midnight Lullaby]

The complaints about Sara's screen time though were because she was a guest star and she had more screen time and lines than the regulars. So there's a difference in complaining that a guest star is taking time from the regulars and saying a regular is taking time from other regulars. Then if you are a fan obviously you don't mind if she has a lot of screen time but it sure was odd objectively speaking.

But it's true that there's a trend in blaming women for everything while if the same circumstances are about men suddenly there's no issue.

[tv echo]

I joined PTV in May of 2014.  Before that, I had lurked a little at TWOP mostly to read spoilers, but I really didn't start actively posting until sometime after I joined PTV. When I first joined PTV, my recollection is that the Arrow forum was not that busy at the time - or at least significantly less active than it is now.

Even if you limit the time period to season 4, my point about the last Felicity complaint still stands.  This season, we had several episodes dealing with Sara's resurrection (involving Laurel), Diggle dealing with Andy (including flashbacks), Thea's bloodlust and even a Quentin-centric episode, but it's Felicity who gets slammed for having too much screen time for a supporting character.

Edited May 27, 2016 by tv echo

[looptab]

15 minutes ago, way2interested said:

 Until I can tell that there's a structured argument beyond extreme generalization (really? Felicity is a majorly hated character now?) or extreme nostalgia glasses (really? There were no problems with s1/s2 you can remember at all?), then I just don't know what to say/think in response. 

RL story: One of my best friends, who doesn't do online fandoms, who only watches Arrow in binges during hiatuses hasn't started s4 yet, and when I asked her why not she told me that her boyfriend said that the show turned into "Felicity and Friends," to which I almost fell out of my chair because 1) not really true and once again extreme generalization and 2) I couldn't believe that that was something people were actually saying in real life.)  

That's where I'm at. Like, criticism is fair. We criticize a lot here. But when there's just complaining without an actual argument, then it's pointless.

About your friend, ha, maybe her bf looked around the internet. XD

[KirkB]

If anything it turned into the Black Canary/Speedy/Spartan Hour, co-starring Overwatch, with special appearances by Green Arrow.

[Carrie Ann]

1 hour ago, Ceylon5 said:

What happened to all the pre-2014 posts?  I don't recall seeing any threads that pre-date about March 2014, so I just assumed that's when the website got up and running.

The forum didn't open until 2014. The site itself existed before then, but not the forum. Nothing was deleted when the forums opened after the beta (which I was around for, beginning in late 2013, I believe), so the earliest posts you see should be from 2014 or possibly December 2013. It just so happened that TWoP announced its closure very shortly after PTV's forums opened, and that's when heavier traffic started. Anyway, back to bitterness. ;)

[NumberCruncher]

28 minutes ago, KirkB said:

If anything it turned into the Black Canary/Speedy/Spartan Hour, co-starring Overwatch, with special appearances by Green Arrow.

It definitely was that in S3.  They even "killed" Oliver off to do it.

[tv echo]

I also think some reviewers use a double standard when it comes to critiquing Arrow.  They'll accept alternate universes, superpowers, nanotech and time travel (even a shark man!) without batting an eyelash, but are eager to criticize every single thing that veers from 'reality' on Arrow.  That might've been fair in seasons 1 and 2 of Arrow, but once The Flash entered the shared universe and then LoT, things changed.  Now when it comes to realism, the same standard of belief (or disbelief) should be applied to all three shows. Just don't take these shows so seriously - they're entertainment, not documentaries.

Edited May 28, 2016 by tv echo

[KirkB]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

 

I also think some reviewers use a double standard when it comes to critiquing Arrow.  They'll accept alternate universes, superpowers, nanotech and time travel (even a shark man!) without batting an eyelash, but are eager to criticize every single thing that veers from 'reality' on Arrow.  That might've been fair in seasons 1 and 2 of Arrow, but once The Flash entered the shared universe and then LoT, things changed.  Now when it comes to realism, the same standard of belief (or disbelief) should be applied to all three shows. Just don't take these shows so seriously - they're entertainment, not documentaries.

 

 

You're right. I have a pretty big capacity for suspension of disbelief. It comes with my chosen genres of sci fi, fantasy and comic stories. Admittedly, at one point, Arrow may have been the most 'realistic' of comic book shows because it was about a guy skilled in martial arts and archery. Even Slade didn't stretch credibility TOO much. Of course Flash changes the rules, since a man running faster than the speed of sound is in no way 'realistic' and it just got wackier after that. But I never really looked at it that way. Oliver may technically have been realistic (if you put aside the fact he had arrows in the comics which made no sense and what could best be described as improbable aiming skills) but he also comes from a world where there are super powered aliens alongside demons, angels, time travel, magic (including a hot tub that can bring dead people back to life), and technology which defies physics, among other things. And a lot of that is making it into the show. Which adds to the fun for me. That said, I can understand why some people might like Arrow less as time goes on if the magic and super powers stuff starts to override the demonstrations of physical skill. 

[GirlvsTV]

I didn't have an issue with magic being included, but the whole thing ended up being so lazily and poorly written. If you are going to include magic, fine - but at least do enough work to write it in a way that makes it believable within the world you've created. They had 23 episodes! And all we got was some ugly totem things, yellow eyes, a magic tattoo, 5 mins of Oliver getting a magic lesson, some black smokey energy stuff and an entire season of DD standing around waving his arms at the Green Arrow. And the barest of tiny thread to connect it all. 

[KirkB]

Come to think of it, how DID the totem get from Argus (it was in Waller's possession the last time we saw it in the flashbacks, right?) to Dark? They never said how he even knew it existed did they?

[apinknightmare]

The ARGUS agent who took the idol away - Mina Fayad - was the lady working for HIVE that Darhk offed earlier in the season. Her name was on her uniform in the last scene of the flashbacks. 

http://youtu.be/mu4hCdzUSws

Edited May 28, 2016 by apinknightmare
Remembered her name.

[looptab]

9 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

The ARGUS agent who took the idol away - Mina Fayad - was the lady working for HIVE that Darhk offed earlier in the season. Her name was on her uniform in the last scene of the flashbacks. 

http://youtu.be/mu4hCdzUSws

Wow, didn't notice that. Nice catch!

[Genki]

That is an amazing catch I don't think anybody noticed it.

[Belinea]

Well, after reading the TVFanatic review and the comments, I have to admit that I am seriously confused. What kind of show are people even watching. The reviewer complained that Felicity took away Oliver's hero moment by diverting the nuke. Among other stupid things. Sometimes it bugs me so much because it is just so ridiculous. I mean, I get that people are upset they don't get the show they want and they blame Felicity.  But at what point in time was Laurel Lace a character that was loved by everybody. They act like they killed of the most important person in the whole universe. She was never BC from the comics and she never would be. They managed to screw that up right from the beginning of the show. So, while I get that everyone held out hope for BC/GA show and is frustrated with the result, I don't understand how they cannot see that the show wasn't the comic book right from the start and Laurel Lance wasn't Dinah. So, I get that people are upset but to act as though Laurel was the show's saving grace is just not true. So, while I do believe that the writers sometimes have difficulties writing proper storylines for all the characters, including Felicity, I doubt she is to blame for everything that went wrong in the writer's room. 

Edited May 28, 2016 by Belinea

[TyranAmiros]

As a viewer who turned Arrow off between 307-320, I'm glad I missed the worst stretch of the show. S4 hasn't always been the greatest, but at least it isn't S3. 

To be honest, I do think the producers screwed up with Felicity's character at least twice. Palmer Island last season is a given, but the second was (barely) reworking what must have been planned for Laurel in Seasons 3-4 into a Felicity story. 

Yes, I think the whole desperate jaunt to NP, Felicity's OOC fear of being with someone dangerous, forcing Oliver to choose--all fits Laurel better than Felicity. Just as the Baby Mama Drama seems to resonate with Lauriver themes more than Olicity ones. 

But they wanted to hit the "epic romance" cliches, so despite the fact they made no sense for the characters on screen, they went with them. And attached to Felicity the same issues with giving Laurel those cliche moments in Season 1, except worse because they were OOC coming from Felicity. She couldn't win here.

Also on another, lighter note, I think gender is playing another role here. Felicity is the character a lot of fans--even (or especially) male fans--identify. Putting your tech/computer-literate character with the superhero who's basically the embodiment of the gender-swapped male gaze (just look at how the show was marketed in S1)? Reminds me of a comment Scott Adams made when he tried to give Dilbert a girlfriend: "I got hundreds of emails telling me they didn't want to see Dilbert get lucky before they did." 

[Mellowyellow]

Guys I'm fretting. With all the b$tchy reviews on Felicity will they cut her screentime? I'd quit the show if she wasn't in it anymore. 

Also I'm curious as to why everybody hates season 3. Season 3 was awesome! We got scenes like "Well let's not say goodbye." Gawd that almost killed me. And Felicity in a supersuit!!!!!!!! It was my favourite season so I was shocked everyone seems to hate it so much. 

[Sunshine]

Season 3 was my least favorite. This show hooked me with the Oliver/Diggle/Felicity dynamic which was blown up in 3.01 along with everything else. I love Felicity but they isolated her on Palmer Island and I'm not a fan of Brandon Routh (as an actor).  Oliver was sidelined/killed off so Laurel could become Black Canary. Diggle was sidelined for masks.  It's one thing for Diggle to be in the lair when Oliver is in the field. It's something else when the most inexperienced fighter is in the field.  Then there is the whole Oliver/Malcolm fiasco which hijacked Thea's arc IMO.  I didn't have any real problems with how Oliver and Felicity were handled.  I just found the rest of the season to be meh!  

[Thundercatmary]

Yep, I feel like when they use OTA together or as a group to prop up other people or shows the show suffers for it. I think people just see Olicity as an easy target but I don't think it's really the problem.

[Genki]

Not to mention there was a lack of urgency and drive in resolving who kill Sara and the Stupid reveal it was Thea and Malcolm got away with it with little no consequences.

So combining Palmer island, the creepiness and douchbaggery of Ray Palmer, the the propping of Laurel, Quentin being hateful, Killing off Sara, the separation of OTA, no job or life out-side the Lair for Oliver, a lacklustre big bad & Olicity fighting Season 3 had a lot of lows with only limited highs (which, granted,  were really really high). It still pisses me off how they ruined Dyla's wedding by needlessly inserting Ray into it. Bleh!!!

[way2interested]

40 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Guys I'm fretting. With all the b$tchy reviews on Felicity will they cut her screentime? I'd quit the show if she wasn't in it anymore. 

Also I'm curious as to why everybody hates season 3. Season 3 was awesome! We got scenes like "Well let's not say goodbye." Gawd that almost killed me. And Felicity in a supersuit!!!!!!!! It was my favourite season so I was shocked everyone seems to hate it so much. 

Felicity, to my knowledge, has not really gotten actual bad reviews as much as just people on the internet just making bad comments about her. If anything, actual reviews (properly) blame the writing before they actually outright criticize the character, barring a few reviewers out there. Besides, a lot of other factors still go into Felicity still retaining her screentime [1) she's one of now only two female main cast members so they'll need to use her 2) she's still the main character's love interest 3) she's the unofficial female lead 4) the network has placed her in terms of importance almost on par with SA and GG, using her to assist in setting up now two other shows]. Reviews and comments have actually very little affect on how the story will be written unless there is additional data/business reasoning to support it, which we will never exactly know. But most likely, Felicity's not going anywhere or being cut unless EBR wants out of the show.

As for s3, I'm kind of on the same boat as @Sunshine, and just call s3 my least favorite rather than just saying I hated it. I do think that s3 gets a bit more harsh criticism than it really deserves, but it really did have a lot of things going against it. I do think that s3 had some of what I would include as the best moments of the series (ex: Thea finding out about the Arrow plus her moments as Speedy, Felicity backstory plus intro of Donna, Olicity date, sex scene, Diggle, Lyla, and Deadshot in 317, Roy twist in 319, majority of 301 and 320), but the overall plot and tone of the season were not really entertaining as they could have been, with some of the problems, like @Sunshine mentioned, overwhelming the good moments that occurred. Maybe it's a lot better when binge watching it?  

[AyChihuahua]

S3 was a shitshow. I suppose it's better in a binge, but really, pretty much every character, but especially the HERO, effectively had lobotomies. Oliver was dumb as paint nearly the entire season. If he'd had the sense god gave a turd he could have completely ruined Malcolm's plan and gotten the LOA off his back in the fourth episode of the season. Instead he takes Malcolm's word for it...bc mass murderers are known for their honesty and willingness to accept consequences for additional murders? And he told Nyssa that Thea is Malcolm's daughter, for...reasons? Malcolm was on the LOA's shit list for the Undertaking, WHY WOULD YOU TELL THEM YOUR SISTER IS HIS DAUGHTER?!?!

Oliver was painfully stupid, and that stupidity continued all the way through the finale, when he left one working parachute right there for RAG to grab, even though his WHOLE PLAN was to kill RAG and destroy the virus in a plane crash. (And he set up the plane to go down over the US, aka likely populated area, v. the high plains of Nanda, and at the end of the flight so it was much less likely to explode, but instead would have just crashed, breaking the glass vials holding the virus, and then...wait for it...scores of rescuers would have RUSHED TO THE SITE OF THE PLANE CRASH and gotten infected.)

S3 Oliver was the dumbest superhero since The Tick.

Edited May 29, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[wonderwall]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Guys I'm fretting. With all the b$tchy reviews on Felicity will they cut her screentime? I'd quit the show if she wasn't in it anymore. 

Also I'm curious as to why everybody hates season 3. Season 3 was awesome! We got scenes like "Well let's not say goodbye." Gawd that almost killed me. And Felicity in a supersuit!!!!!!!! It was my favourite season so I was shocked everyone seems to hate it so much. 

I'm not really worried about Felicity. Honestly, I'd only start worrying if they didn't even bother to write for her. Yes the writers have an issue with finishing what they started with Felicity, but that's because they give her so much stuff (wheelchair, breakup, her father, ex boyfriend, nukes) that they have no time to properly write each storyline. 

I'd honestly start being worried about it when they start treating her like Laurel or Roy... Basically when they shove her into the background and not write for her at all. But it seems like the writers still love to write about her so yeah.. I'm not worried.

As for the reviewers... I saw a lot of reviewers upset that Felicity didn't react to the nukes, upset that the writing failed her. They weren't necessarily upset at Felicity per se... And to be fair, I agree with them. I would've LOVED to have seen Felicity react to the nukes and I was really upset as a Felicity fan the way they left things with her in the season finale...

As for season 3. Sorry but I hated it :p Wasn't a fan of Oliver or his decision making, wasn't a fan of Felicity being stuck on Palmer Island, wasn't a fan of the contrived storytelling that was the LoA, wasn't a fan of Laurel and her being shoved to the forefront (which required Oliver to die)... It was all just a jumbled mess for me. But I suppose it'd have better to binge watch rather than watch live...

Edited May 29, 2016 by wonderwall

[SmallScreenDiva]

Arrow comes across as a better show when binge-watched, IMO. Mainly because there's no time spent nitpicking the plot, character motivations, etc. There's no time to stew over stupid drama (*shakes fist at BMD*). I watched S3 again with friends during a holiday weekend. We inhaled the entire season over 4-5 days and they enjoyed. I enjoyed it, even knowing all the stupid stuff that happened, because the people I was watching it with were having fun and ooohing and clapping over every single Olicity and OTA thing, LOL!

As for Felicity, @Mellowyellow, I might fret if I just focus on the rants of Internet people, but talking with "ordinary" viewers, people who are not following the show on social media, I'm confident in Olicity and Felicity. If anything, what comes across to me is Felicity more beloved than any character on Arrow, including Oliver himself.

Edited May 29, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[Mellowyellow]

33 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Arrow comes across as a better show when binge-watched, IMO. Mainly because there's no time spent nitpicking the plot, character motivations, etc. There's no time to stew over stupid drama (*shakes fist at BMD*). I watched S3 again with friends during a holiday weekend. We inhaled the entire season over 4-5 days and they enjoyed. I enjoyed it, even knowing all the stupid stuff that happened, because the people I was watching it with were having fun and ooohing and clapping over every single Olicity and OTA thing, LOL!

 

This was me while I watched season 3!!!!! I  squee-d endlessly, fast forwarded all the Laurel bits (I actually don't mind her but I was addicted to season 3 so I had to watch it fast to see what was happening to Olicity) and basically drifted around the house for a fortnight interrogating hubby about whether we were epic and if I was the love of his life.  Hehe all this talk makes me thinkme think I need to re watch 3 and pretend 4 didn't happen!

I grew up on crazy korean and Chinese soap dramas though and season 3 reminded me of these so I thought it was superb!

Oooh and when Oliver told Felicity he needed to know that she was out there and happy......omg *hyperventilates*

[looptab]

7 hours ago, TyranAmiros said:

Yes, I think the whole desperate jaunt to NP, Felicity's OOC fear of being with someone dangerous, forcing Oliver to choose

That was never the issue for Felicity, though. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think every show becomes more enjoyable binge watched and if you are far, far away from the Internet that can take the fun out of everything. I binge watched S1-2 and looking back I know, 100% sure, that if I watched season 1 live I would have quit. The Oliver/Laurel/Tommy plot was terrible and every time they had one of their ridiculous relationship problems I wanted to bang my head on the table but since I had two seasons available I managed to ignore it, roll my eyes at them and still enjoy the rest that was good.

I didn't particularly enjoy season 3 because it was too depressing IMO, but probably if I could move on from the parts I didn't like faster and didn't read people saying how bad it was I would have enjoyed it more.

With season 4 thinking about the things I like I find it as good or better than season 2 but I still enjoyed season 2 more and I think that has everything to do with me being a casual viewer at the time.

[Thundercatmary]

I definitely think there is major benefits to binge watching, most of my favorite shows like Farscape, Eureka I binge watched and they are still faves of mine. Of course my other 2 faves West Wing and X-Files are like my babies and no internet comments etc could turn me against them :p

 

ETA: I also binge watched season 1 and 2 of Arrow, I'm not sure I would have kept watching if i had started in season 1. If the voice over's hadn't made me quit then the L/T/O stuff probably would have since i loved Tommy and thought O/L had no chemistry. 

Edited May 29, 2016 by Thundercatmary

[GirlvsTV]

Even though I disliked most of season 3, at the end I still cared about all of the other non-Lance characters and was excited to see where they'd be going in Season 4.

Now that season 4 is over I can honestly say I have no excitement and very little interest in what will happen next. Maybe a smidge for Felicity and Digg, but that's all. 

[Morrigan2575]

Pulled over from Schism Thread, where discussion popped up on ranking the finales.

S1 > S2 > S4 > S3 (finale or final 3 episodes wise)

Show wise, S1b-S2a were the best (114-209), IMO.  I'd also say that 401-409 were very strong episodes.  Arrow's big problem  (IMO) is x10 - x17/18 which are usually filler before trying to wrap everything up in the final 5 episodes.

For me S3 was the weakest season from start to finish.

[Midnight Lullaby]

If I had to rank the finale I'd say S2, S4/S1, S3. I don't think I have a preference between S1 and S4 finale but I liked them both more than the season 3 finale for sure. The problem with the season 1 finale for me was that I couldn't care less about Tommy or Laurel if I tried, instead in the season 2 finale we had Nyssa, Lyla, Amanda and the "I love you" that was the first time the show really surprised me. I found it such an enjoyable episode.

[catrice2]

I am glad I found this forum. Some of you articulate clearly what I struggle to say.  I cannot put into words where the show went wrong. It has been almost painful to watch the show go from the first two seasons to what it is now.  

[KirkB]

If I had to rank them, I'd say 1, 2, just barely 4, and then 3. 1 they had a concise story, Oliver trying to fulfill his father's wish and taking out people on the list. 2 was where I started to get tired of the flashbacks but Slade was a good villain. 3 was a mess. Damn near everyone acted out of character at various times and for various reasons, the story meandered or stopped at times for no obvious reason, Sara's death (which should have been dramatic and heart breaking) was a poor decision and done badly, as was the reveal of her killer, and Ra's al Ghul was such a badly miscast joke it wasn't even funny. 4 was very hit or miss, and I think Dark wore out his welcome before it was even halfway over, but except when the flashbacks got in the way (which was most of the time) it kind of had a story moving forward. NM kept Dark from being a lost cause.

[Morrigan2575]

What i liked best about 1 and what i feel has been massively missing from the later seasons is that S1 was a small/concise story.  After that MG (like most other EPs) got wrapped up in bigger=better. 

i agree with DR when he says that a Nuclear warhead and global nuclear destruction was too big for Arrow. 

I also agree with DR/SA about wanting to get back to street level fighting, solving crimes, protecting the city.  I'd really like it if S5 went back to basics but the reality is, once you let the Genie out of the bottle it's very hard to put it back in again. 

I'd also like to get more of their personal lives, that come from a smaller story.  

Edited May 29, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'd go with S2 > S1 > S3/S4 for finales (not entire seasons).

The S2 finale delivered more thrills for me. From the assault on the clocktower, the escapes via zipline and Lyla's bazooka to the Oliver/Slade fight in present time and the flashbacks, every action sequence was exciting. Then there were the two biggest surprises with Oliver's ILY to Felicity AND then handing her the syringe.

The biggest surprise to me in S1 was that they let the second earthquake machine go off. I loved that the heroes didn't fully save the day and that we saw the aftermath in S2.

S3 squeaks past S4 by a hair. Both were pretty much duds, IMO. But at least S3 delivered with ATOM Felicity, which genuinely had me clapping. Also, I really enjoyed the sequence with Digg, Nyssa, Merlyn in the field all checking in and then springing into action.

S4 was just yawn-inducing. I hated the street fight. Hope as a "weapon" to fight the darkness was just too hokey. I did like the Ghost's assault on the lair but after I wanted the team to move again. I was depressed by Digg's decision to re-enlist and while I liked that they didn't rush Oliver/Felicity back together, I was deeply unsatisfied by the way their whole relationship was handled in the past few eps. 

Edited May 29, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva
Clarifying I'm ranking finales

[Angel12d]

I have trouble ranking the seasons because there are plenty of episodes in every season that I dislike.

S1 was strong in that it had a mystery to solve but even that didn't really feel right until Felicity joined the team in 114 and we got that great OTA dynamic, and even then there were a couple of meh episodes. 

S2 had a fantastic start and a really strong end but there was about 8-9 episodes in the middle which were just a chore to get through, especially because Diggle and Felicity were sidelined during most of it.

Aside from one or two episodes and Olicity sexy times, S3 was an absolute mess on every single level. Killing Sara, putting O/F at odds, Felicity on Palmer Island, Diggle sidelined again, Laurel's sloppy rise to BC, Ra's al Ghul. Everything. 

I enjoyed S4 until 415, with the exception of a couple of episodes and some issues with stunts/characterization/plot/pacing, but felt the rest was pretty weak. 420 was brilliant though and gave me hope for the final three but unfortunately it just didn't land.

I think the only thing I can say with certainty is that S3 was the worst. 

Edited May 29, 2016 by Angel12d

[dtissagirl]

My favorite finale is definitely S2's, but if would qualify them all, then I think the best one is S1's. But favorite >>>> best for me. In S2 I was invested in the characters about 500 billions times more than I was in S1.

The S3 finale had better isolated moments than the S4 finale for me, but I rank both WAY below S1/S2 both in terms of what I think is best and what I like about them.

As for favorite seasons, yeah, my favorite "season" is 114-209. Then 401-409 SKIPPING 408 DO NOT ENGAGE WITH THAT ONE. A couple of days ago I posted something like this on Twitter, and it got retweeted/faved a lot, it was fun to realize this is a sentiment shared by many.

Edited May 29, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Password]

Season 1 is still my favourite finale because it wasn't wrapped in a pretty bow and made me pumped for season 2. There was a shock value with the second earthquake machine that I've never felt in any of the other finales (except maybe the ILY which was unexpected). It was shocking that the hero(s) didn't really save the day.

But I think season 2 had the best build up to the finale. Episode 21-23 were very exciting and they finally got back to basics with OTA which was a delight after a string of episodes that were unlike the Arrow I fell in love with. Slade is still the best villain IMO.

I like the season 3 finale better than season 4 because it felt like a welcome surprise after slogging through the muddy waters of season 3. It was rushed and the story of Oliver accepting himself as not only Arrow or Oliver Queen was kind of botched when Al Salhim made a late appearance but it was satisfying.

Season 4 had a better arc for Oliver IMO but the finale was like wanting a balloon to pop but instead it just slowly let the air out through the opening. It didn't excite me for season 5 but we as viewers were blessed with the knowledge that Oliver finally has a job after 2 years. 

[AyChihuahua]

10 hours ago, looptab said:

That was never the issue for Felicity, though. 

Yeah, I didn't get that either. She was never worried about being with Oliver bc he was dangerous, and she's never, in the series, forced him to choose bw her and the mission or another person. 

(One more strike against Oliver's behavior during the BMD.)

[tarotx]

I enjoyed the season 2 final arc the most and IMO it was by far the best. Season 1 wrapped up its season great and was enjoyable. The season 3 finale, as a stand alone, was nice. Though I loved season 4, as a season, much more than s3 and most of it at an equal to season 1,  the finale was the worse.

The season 4 finale had its nice moments and as an episode (for the most part) was good but not as a season wrap-up. IMO, we got a montage of the stuff I wanted to be more engaged in. We already had the nuke drama and we didn't need it again. We should have had Oliver deal with Damian when Oliver encouraged the citizens of Star. (Those citizens rioting would have been more realistic in the aftermath of the nuke and with Damien still strong). I don't think we needed a Green Arrow fight at all. I wish Oliver Queen killed DD. After Damien discovered his magic was neutralized he should have taken off. Oliver would have chased after him and then the League trained Damien fought Oliver with Oliver killing him.

With that whole motivational speech & fight scene condensed and with no Nuke drama, more time could be spent on Diggle deciding he needed to find his soul again and talking to Oliver, Felicity and definitely Lyla about his decision.

Felicity could have had a quiet moment with mom about the drama of the year. Donna could then decide that she need a breather from Star and Ask both Felicity and Lance to go with her. Felicity would have talked to Diggle and Thea about their decision helping to make hers. Felicity would decide that the mission was even more important to her what with knowing her Dad's criminal past, the Nuke decision and her pride in Oliver. Oliver would have come back from the fight and talked to both Felicity and Diggle about his mental state after the kill. That would have been Felicity's deciding moment to stay in Oliver's mission (and not find another outlet). I would have also liked Felicity, Curtis and Paul deciding that a smaller tech company would be a good avenue to help people. 

Thea and Oliver could have been at the Graveyard together talking about both Loss and mission. Not just Laurel's grave but Alex's and maybe Moira's. I guess I want less of the comic-book-ness feel and more time spent on family and finding personal growth.

Oliver deciding to take the Mayor position and him saying the Oath and then going back to the Lair with Felicity waiting was a great way to end the season.

Malcolm should not have even been in the Finale or just a glimpse of him taking off. And we didn't need Cooper's redemption arc either. With the Nuke fear over, MM would have been off to regroup and Cooper pointless.

Oh well, I'll post my hopes for season 5 in that thread. 

Edited May 29, 2016 by tarotx

[Midnight Lullaby]

One thing I liked in the season 4 finale and the season in general was what they did with Dig's story. Lots of plot things were questionable and I hope they learned that magic/nukes are ridiculous on a show with a guy that fights with a bow and arrow but I can forgive a lot if they give me something significant about the characters I like. The disappointment is that they didn't do the same with Felicity. They put a lot on her plate during the season but the ending felt anticlimactic because they didn't follow through with anything.

I didn't particularly care about the season 1 finale, despite the plot being better, because I didn't care about the characters that much. I didn't even really like Oliver at the time.

They could write a plot worthy of an Oscar but if it's about Poppy's life they lose me. My enjoyment largely depends on what they do with the characters I care about. 

[looptab]

For me is S2>S1>S4>S3.(finales)

I like the s2 finale the best for all the reasons you said. S1 had its highlights, and I rank it maybe on the same level of s4, which, as much as I found the final battle with DD endless and pointless, expected better from Thea, and kinda depressed that the Team is dismantled - and that there wasn't that much in terms of Oliver and Felicity's situation - left me anticipating S5. I'm really curious how they are going to bring the team back together*. I just hated the S3 finale. There were nice moment,s like Dig punching Oliver and the drive off into the sunset, but I've never rewatched it and I don't think I ever will. (still working  on rewatching S4's, which I do want to rewatch, but then I go "..nah".

*I feel like I'm alone on this, and on the feeling about the whole season as well, haha. I really enjoyed this season. The issues with the writing and pacing are the same as always,  the stunts were worse, and the flashbacks - which I actually watched in their entirety! - were awful, but aside from the BMD and some episodes here and there (LL's death related) it was a good season, IMO.

[calliope1975]

4 minutes ago, looptab said:

*I feel like I'm alone on this, and on the feeling about the whole season as well, haha. I really enjoyed this season. The issues with the writing and pacing are the same as always,  the stunts were worse, and the flashbacks - which I actually watched in their entirety! - were awful, but aside from the BMD and some episodes here and there (LL's death related) it was a good season, IMO.

I agree with you for the most part. Except for episode 8 because that didn't happen. Of course, maybe after S3, my Arrow entertainment bar is set way, way low now. I think S2 1- 9 are still going to be my fave set of episodes. I guess that was just a fluke. 

[looptab]

22 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I agree with you for the most part. Except for episode 8 because that didn't happen. Of course, maybe after S3, my Arrow entertainment bar is set way, way low now. I think S2 1- 9 are still going to be my fave set of episodes. I guess that was just a fluke. 

I can't count the times I rewatched 201 to 209. :( But I'm still hopeful. 401 to 409 was close.

Oh, yes, of course aside from 408. The fact that it doesn't exist is so radicated in my brain, that I don't even think of listing it among the exclusions, haha.It falls under BMD. :) (Yet, I managed to rewatch that and not 323. What does that say about me? :D)

Edited May 29, 2016 by looptab

[thegirlsleuth]

For finales, my ranking is 2-1-4-3. Season 2 nudged 1 out by a hair--the earthquake hitting despite everyone's heroics was a huge surprise, but I loved the Oliver/Slade fight and was really invested in the characters.

I rewatch seasons 1 and 2, and think I'll rewatch 4, but my hate for season 3 grows with time. When 4.08 aired, I said, out loud, to my tv:  "I thought we agreed that we were done with this sh*t." Because before that point I thought the writers were living up to promise they made At Comic Con to correct the problems of season 3.  I really thought they were going to avoid the Oliver and Felicity drama for at least one year since it was so badly received, and the second Oliver lied and Felicity overreacted I knew the storyline was going to be awful.  It was the worst season 3 melodrama all over again.  Season 4 had less Malcolm Merlyn which meant less Merlyn adjacent stupidity. It had no Canary episodes, it had no Ray Palmer, no 'magic penicillin', no weak villain, and no pointless trips to Nanda Parbat. It didn't have Guggenheim's terrible storytelling, where it swung from epic game changer to epic game changer, without rhyme or reason.  Thank god I can one of the 18 million people who have watched the love scene on YouTube, because Guggenheim is a hack, and I will never watch season 3 again.

[looptab]

26 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

Because before that point I thought the writers were living up to promise they made At Comic Con to correct the problems of season 3.

Well, even before that, they said they took to heart what was wrong and what worked in S1-2...and S3 it's what came out of that, LOL. I hope they don't try to correct anything anymore. :)