S04.E02: Breathe

[Clanstarling]

On 8/13/2018 at 7:17 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I almost couldn't breathe watching Kim confront Howard.  That was one of the fiercest performances I've seen in awhile.  It doesn't even matter what we think of Jimmy or what he's done.  She didn't say anything to Howard that wasn't true.  

I kind of love that Mike's logic about the nonjob makes perfect sense to Gus.

It made perfect sense to me, don't know what that says about me, except that like Gus I'm a detail person. It makes sense that if you're paying someone (especially if it's money laundering) then you need to be able to prove he's an employee and not just a name on a spreadsheet. Mike's actions not only make that proof easier, but he also found some serious security issues.

On 8/13/2018 at 7:30 PM, BeatrixK said:

I hope I am NEVER on the wrong end of a Kim Wexler ass chewing!  That was brutal...and I actually felt a teeny bit sorry for Howard.  

I only truly disliked Howard in the first season. Yet, I didn't feel sorry for him at all. Perhaps because I was too in awe of Kim.

On 8/13/2018 at 8:19 PM, toodles said:

This is probably an unpopular opinion but I think Kim was completely wrong to not give Jimmy his money or letter.  I think her intentions were good, but they belong to Jimmy.  He needs to decide what to with them.  Jimmy saw the electric crap in the backyard.  Deep down he knew what happened.  He wasn't ready to say the words or face what happened.  Howard dealt with the immediate situation.  That is really traumatic.

I'm not sure she intends to keep it from him forever, but I suspect it will be discovered before she manages to give it to him. I think she wanted to give Jimmy some breathing room.

 

On 8/14/2018 at 3:24 AM, Conan Troutman said:

Plus he's called him "reliable" already. For Gus, this is basically the business equivalent of love on first sight. 

It is for me too, so I'm getting nervous about how much like Gus I am.

 

On 8/14/2018 at 4:36 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

I wonder how much the doctor is under Fring's control.  Is she there to do everything she can for Fring's "friend" or is she there to make sure he wakes up, but to prevent him from regaining the power of speech, the ability to walk, etc.

Interesting idea

 

 

22 hours ago, Conan Troutman said:

Well, maybe not if it's ruled as arsony, and technically it was. I wonder if that's a potenial plot? Howard lies to the insurance company about the possible suicide and Jimmy uses it to sink him for good?

 

22 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Jimmy could decide for himself whether he wanted to go through the house or be on the scholarship board.  I don't see Howard making the offers being in any way insensitive.  

Assuming Chuck had homeowners insurance, I imagine the insurance company would pay to rebuild the house, or compensate Rebecca for the lost value.  I was thinking that if Howard filed the insurance claim on behalf of the estate, he might be on the hook for insurance fraud, since he strongly suspects it was arson/suicide, by the homeowner, not an accident.   

I didn't really have a good grasp of what Jimmy was thinking in the NEFF scenes.  It would seem a lot easier for him to steal the Hummels if he took the job.  It also seems like a small time heist to risk his freedom and law license on.  Mabye he saw his father in the saps at NEFF and didn't want to work for saps and chose to go into wolf mode?  

 

21 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

When he unloaded his big bag o' guilt on Jimmy he was presenting as someone who wanted absolution because the one time he'd finally put his foot down with Chuck after years of being his convenient fall guy and accomplice and propping him in his delusions that no, of course living like a foil-wrapped baked potato doesn't mean maybe you're mentally ill because it kept the gravy train afloat, Chuck burned the house down with Chuck in it.  Kim wasn't wrong to blast him for doing that on the day of the funeral or pointing out that he likely hadn't similarly unburdened himself to the woman who had divorced Chuck.  But because it's dirtbag Jimmy, who should be grateful for whatever scraps he's allowed to dig through the ashes for, it's all right.   You could see Howard visibly shrinking under Rhea Seehorn laying that withering smackdown on him because he like it or not he knew she was right.

Kim has always been a very contained, keep it on a professional level no matter what, kind of character.  So to see that ferocity in her for someone she loves and knows is being treated like an afterthought was thing of beauty.  That doesn't mean I don't worry about her though in the fallout we surely know is coming as Jimmy slips further into Saul.

Yes to everything.

 

21 hours ago, SnarkAttack said:

Nice to finally see some heat between Kim and Jimmy!

I know, right?

20 hours ago, Bannon said:

Jimmy may be an awful person, but he definitely is not a sociopath. He's a lot more interesting than that. 

To me, it's easier for us if we say someone is a sociopath - because that makes them "other" - not just a normal human being who happens to make terrible, or even evil, choices. I'm more interested in normal, poor choices, human beings.

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

 

To me, it's easier for us if we say someone is a sociopath - because that makes them "other" - not just a normal human being who happens to make terrible, or even evil, choices. I'm more interested in normal, poor choices, human beings.

As I've said before, sociopaths are very, very, tedious, both in fiction and real life, so even when the danger of being around them doesn't threaten your professional, financial, or physical well being, because you are only engaging one via a work of fiction, I try to avoid them. I hardly ever stick with a story that features a sociopath as a central character, and I'm really glad that Gilligan and Gould have only made ancillary characters possible sociopaths in this universe, like perhaps Don Eladio or Hector Salamanca, and I tend to think even Hector, as violently evil as he is, really isn't a sociopath.

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, I do believe there are sociopaths, but, I'm also in the belief that most people will do most anything, under the right circumstances. I think that's why I find certain fictional characters so intriguing....like Jimmy, Kim, and others. 

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, I do believe there are sociopaths, but, I'm also in the belief that most people will do most anything, under the right circumstances. I think that's why I find certain fictional characters so intriguing....like Jimmy, Kim, and others. 

Yes, I think people or characters we often label "sociopaths" are people who choose to embrace their darker impulses often enough that it becomes a habit or way of life.  Calling them "sociopaths" sort of halfway lets them off the hook, blaming their evil deeds on mental illness, rather than a lack of moral character.  

[Tikichick]

On 8/13/2018 at 11:29 PM, peeayebee said:

I'm very curious what's in that letter. I somehow don't think it is another "screw you" message, but actually an apology or a revelation of his (Chuck's) love for Jimmy. I'm sure we'll find out eventually.

Kim going off on Howard actually surprised me, but it shouldn't have. She loves Jimmy and is defending and protecting him.

I'm confused as to what Jimmy is doing with his job interviews. He did his song-and-dance to get an instant job offer then he throws it back in their faces. Seems like he wanted to try out Slippin' Jimmy on them with no intention of using it to his benefit. Or he knew he didn't really want the job and sabotaged it himself. I wonder if he did this in all of his interviews. He's going thru the motions, but he really wants to be a lawyer. Maybe.

That letter is going to have the ultimate seismic effect IMO. It will likely be the catalyst for the end of Kim/Jimmy.  I fully expect it to include a revelation that completely levels Jimmy, totally blindsides him. 

[Bannon]

19 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, I do believe there are sociopaths, but, I'm also in the belief that most people will do most anything, under the right circumstances. I think that's why I find certain fictional characters so intriguing....like Jimmy, Kim, and others. 

I really hope we get more in depth with Howard this season  because I think we have just skimmed the surface of this potentially very interesting character, because there just hasn't been time, and Chuck's death may provide some. Howard,  to me, appears to be someone of above average intelligence and drive , but who also has a pronounced deficit in genuine self confidence (which is not unusual in sons who inherit businesses created by their fathers), and that insecurity, which lies beneath a thin veneer of faux confidence, leads him to some poor choices. If Howard would have a moment of meaningful self awarenes and growth, that could lead to something quite interesting. Kim's chewing out of Howard could be a catalyst.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Bannon

[SunnyBeBe]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yes, I think people or characters we often label "sociopaths" are people who choose to embrace their darker impulses often enough that it becomes a habit or way of life.  Calling them "sociopaths" sort of halfway lets them off the hook, blaming their evil deeds on mental illness, rather than a lack of moral character.  

Yeah, I think that we sometimes blame Satan for things that the human did all on their own.  lol 

[Bryce Lynch]

Regarding Mike and his warehouse escapades, I still think it was foolish and out of line.  He should have cleared it with Fring first and I think not doing so was disrespectful and potentially dangerous.  

It seems to me that Mike was motivated much more by boredom and nosiness than by concerns about making his salary look legitimate.  But, that nosiness could lead to some interesting plot movement.  

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I really hope we get more in depth with Howard this season  because I think we have just skimmed the surface of this potentially very interesting character, because there just hasn't been time, and Chuck's death may provide some. Howard,  to me, appears to be someone of above average intelligence and drive , but who also has a pronounced deficit in genuine self confidence (which is not unusual in sons who inherit businesses created by their fathers), and that insecurity, which lies beneath a thin veneer of faux confidence, leads him to some poor choices. If Howard would have a moment of meaningful self awarenes and growth, that could lead to something quite interesting. Kim's chewing out of Howard could be a catalyst.

I could see Howard falling apart this season.  Good point about his feigned confidence.  I think the veneer is pretty thick, as I believe the other characters think it is real, but I agree that there is probably insecurity beneath it.   Funny, I was watching Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee earlier and Steve Martin talked about faking confidence on stage and Seinfeld said that faking it is the same thing as real confidence.  

Howard has made some poor choices.  Recommending Jimmy for the D&M job was a terrible choice.  

The way he dealt with Chuck throughout the first 3 seasons was also questionable, though in fairness, he was largely stuck between a rock and a hard place, and he also greatly admired Chuck.   There was so much uncertainty about whether Chuck's illness was mental or physical (though I think it seemed clear enough to the audience). Chuck's reputation was so important to the firm and I think he wanted to do right by Chuck, but also protect the interests of the firm.  He probably should have been firmer with Chuck, earlier on, but even that might have just caused HHM to blow up sooner.  

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

The management techniques employed by Gus in his chicken business appear a bit more employee-friendly than those used in the drug business, so if I was looking for a new job, I'd make sure my resume found it's way to the right pile.

Even if I'm not wild about the uniforms at Pollos Hermanos.

I was reading a comment elsewhere which brought up the similarity between what Gus did to Arturo with Nacho present and how Hector killed Gus' partner, though Arturo and Nacho did not have the same relationship as Gus and ?? (can't remember his name).  Gus knew firsthand what the effect would be, so has he considered that Nacho might become as vengeance-driven as he is?  Of course we know who is in BB and who isn't, but it doesn't mean that Nacho won't wreak some major chaos. 

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I could see Howard falling apart this season.  Good point about his feigned confidence.  I think the veneer is pretty thick, as I believe the other characters think it is real, but I agree that there is probably insecurity beneath it.   Funny, I was watching Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee earlier and Steve Martin talked about faking confidence on stage and Seinfeld said that faking it is the same thing as real confidence.  

Howard has made some poor choices.  Recommending Jimmy for the D&M job was a terrible choice.  

The way he dealt with Chuck throughout the first 3 seasons was also questionable, though in fairness, he was largely stuck between a rock and a hard place, and he also greatly admired Chuck.   There was so much uncertainty about whether Chuck's illness was mental or physical (though I think it seemed clear enough to the audience). Chuck's reputation was so important to the firm and I think he wanted to do right by Chuck, but also protect the interests of the firm.  He probably should have been firmer with Chuck, earlier on, but even that might have just caused HHM to blow up sooner.  

Well, Howard should have had enough creativity and wisdom to find a solution for employing Jimmy's talents usefully. He managed him successfully for 7 years in the mail room, for cryin' out loud, but that issue was closely tied to Howard's insecurity  and thus his poor choices, in managing his relationship with Chuck. Anyways, you and I will never agree with regard to your deterministic view of Jimmy's behavior, so there is no point in hoeing that row again.

If your partner in a large successful business has a severe illness, physical or mental, that prevents his full participation, it has to be addressed. Howard,  if he was performing his duties as senior partner diligently, would have forced Chuck  with the aid of other partners, to go spend a couple weeks at the Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins  etc., to get to the bottom of this. Remember, when Chuck was finally forced to confront the reality of his mental illness, he responded  very well to cognitive therapy. If you want to draw the income of a senior partner, like Howard does, then you need to do the damned job, even the most unpleasant aspects of it. It really was the most gross professional negligence for Howard to enable Chuck as he did.

11 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I was reading a comment elsewhere which brought up the similarity between what Gus did to Arturo with Nacho present and how Hector killed Gus' partner, though Arturo and Nacho did not have the same relationship as Gus and ?? (can't remember his name).  Gus knew firsthand what the effect would be, so has he considered that Nacho might become as vengeance-driven as he is?  Of course we know who is in BB and who isn't, but it doesn't mean that Nacho won't wreak some major chaos. 

My guess is that Gus is well aware of the similarity, and has already decided to kill Nacho, once a little more value has been extracted from him. Like I said, I think cooking and distributing chicken for Gus is a better career choice than cooking and distributing drugs for Gus.

[Tikichick]

For me Jimmy's job interview and complete meltdown upon being offered the job was the manifestation of Jimmy internalizing Chuck's opinion of him and completely disintegrating in the face of accepting it as inescapable.  Down deep he's stuck with the idea that Chuck is always right, including about him -- and stuck with the idea that Chuck will always have the last word on the subject because he kicked over the lamp and died to tell Jimmy he knew what he did.

[Bannon]

42 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Regarding Mike and his warehouse escapades, I still think it was foolish and out of line.  He should have cleared it with Fring first and I think not doing so was disrespectful and potentially dangerous.  

It seems to me that Mike was motivated much more by boredom and nosiness than by concerns about making his salary look legitimate.  But, that nosiness could lead to some interesting plot movement.  

I don't think Mike has had any trust in Lydia from their first meeting, and thus has decided to find out everything he can about the operation she oversees. If that makes his income appear more legitimate, all the better. Gus seems to have instructed Lydia to give Mike a badge, and thus make him a legitimate employee,  so its mission accomplished on fronts for Mike. His income is nearly perfectly clean (I wonder why he couldn't scale it up more once the income really started rolling in during the BB years; perhaps it was too large), and he gets to closely observe a partner he doesn't trust.

[ShadowFacts]

19 minutes ago, Bannon said:

My guess is that Gus is well aware of the similarity, and has already decided to kill Nacho, once a little more value has been extracted from him. Like I said, I think cooking and distributing chicken for Gus is a better career choice than cooking and distributing drugs for Gus.

I agree.  Gus has been aware of Nacho's disloyalty to Hector for awhile, he knows Nacho is far from trustworthy.  And as we know, cooking and distributing meth results in an early grave for most all of those who choose that career.  They kill each other off with regularity.  Nacho's solutions to his problems with Tuco and Hector were to want them killed.  He has been thwarted by Mike and now a non-fatal stroke.  He's pretty well lined up to become a victim himself.

14 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

For me Jimmy's job interview and complete meltdown upon being offered the job was the manifestation of Jimmy internalizing Chuck's opinion of him and completely disintegrating in the face of accepting it as inescapable.  Down deep he's stuck with the idea that Chuck is always right, including about him -- and stuck with the idea that Chuck will always have the last word on the subject because he kicked over the lamp and died to tell Jimmy he knew what he did.

Yes.  I saw self-loathing there, and also when he gets up in the middle of the night from Kim's bed to go start plotting the Hummel caper.  He doesn't think he deserves love from someone like her.  He is more comfortable with criminal endeavors because it fits with who he thinks he is. 

[Bryce Lynch]

31 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Well, Howard should have had enough creativity and wisdom to find a solution for employing Jimmy's talents usefully. He managed him successfully for 7 years in the mail room, for cryin' out loud, but that issue was closely tied to Howard's insecurity  and thus his poor choices, in managing his relationship with Chuck. Anyways, you and I will never agree with regard to your deterministic view of Jimmy's behavior, so there is no point in hoeing that row again.

If your partner in a large successful business has a severe illness, physical or mental, that prevents his full participation, it has to be addressed. Howard,  if he was performing his duties as senior partner diligently, would have forced Chuck  with the aid of other partners, to go spend a couple weeks at the Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins  etc., to get to the bottom of this. Remember, when Chuck was finally forced to confront the reality of his mental illness, he responded  very well to cognitive therapy. If you want to draw the income of a senior partner, like Howard does, then you need to do the damned job, even the most unpleasant aspects of it. It really was the most gross professional negligence for Howard to enable Chuck as he did.

My guess is that Gus is well aware of the similarity, and has already decided to kill Nacho, once a little more value has been extracted from him. Like I said, I think cooking and distributing chicken for Gus is a better career choice than cooking and distributing drugs for Gus.

Hiring Jimmy was not an option for Howard, because Jimmy's own brother was (wisely) steadfastly opposed to it.  Besides that, no real, prestigious, law firm would ever promote a guy from the mailroom who got his degree from the University of American Samoa distance learning program, though apparently Howard was open to it and blocked by Chuck. 

As for Chuck, in theory, he should have tried hard to get Chuck to agree to be hospitalized, but there was no way Chuck would agree to be exposed to a constant barrage of electricity for weeks.  They would have needed to kidnap him or have him committed.  Since Jimmy was his next of kin, he was the only one with the power to do that.  Also, while it always seemed pretty obvious to me that Chuck's condition was psychological, it seems like the writers had both Howard and Jimmy believing it is was physical, or at least having a lot of uncertainty about it.  

Even if he could have convinced Jimmy to have Chuck committed, having a named partner committed, kicking and screaming,  to a psych ward could have been disastrous for HHM.  And of course, nobody had less influence with Jimmy than Howard, who Jimmy incorrectly believe sabotaged his career at HHM.  

[Bannon]

14 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I agree.  Gus has been aware of Nacho's disloyalty to Hector for awhile, he knows Nacho is far from trustworthy.  And as we know, cooking and distributing meth results in an early grave for most all of those who choose that career.  They kill each other off with regularity.  Nacho's solutions to his problems with Tuco and Hector were to want them killed.  He has been thwarted by Mike and now a non-fatal stroke.  He's pretty well lined up to become a victim himself.

Yes.  I saw self-loathing there, and also when he gets up in the middle of the night from Kim's bed to go start plotting the Hummel caper.  He doesn't think he deserves love from someone like her.  He is more comfortable with criminal endeavors because it fits with who he thinks he is. 

And this is where I can't give up the idea that Jimmy, if exposed to real leadership, could have had a different path. Of course, Chuck couldn't provide it, due to his extraordinary anger, developed from childhood, and Howard can't provide it, because of his lack of confidence. Kim is Jimmy's best chance, but Jimmy's love for Kim really complicates things.

This is such a tragic story, in the most classical sense, and so brilliantly written, acted, directed, and filmed.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Hiring Jimmy was not an option for Howard, because Jimmy's own brother was (wisely) steadfastly opposed to it.  Besides that, no real, prestigious, law firm would ever promote a guy from the mailroom who got his degree from the University of American Samoa distance learning program, though apparently Howard was open to it and blocked by Chuck. 

As for Chuck, in theory, he should have tried hard to get Chuck to agree to be hospitalized, but there was no way Chuck would agree to be exposed to a constant barrage of electricity for weeks.  They would have needed to kidnap him or have him committed.  Since Jimmy was his next of kin, he was the only one with the power to do that.  Also, while it always seemed pretty obvious to me that Chuck's condition was psychological, it seems like the writers had both Howard and Jimmy believing it is was physical, or at least having a lot of uncertainty about it.  

Even if he could have convinced Jimmy to have Chuck committed, having a named partner committed, kicking and screaming,  to a psych ward could have been disastrous for HHM.  And of course, nobody had less influence with Jimmy than Howard, who Jimmy incorrectly believe sabotaged his career at HHM.  

You didn't need to hire Jimmy as an employee to use his talents well, while insulating the firm's brand from negative exposure. Again, large litigation firms do this all the time.

Unless Howard, with the support of all the junior partners, demanded that Chuck seek the best medical attention available, under threat of being bought out, then Howard failed to fulfill his responsibilities. Good grief, Jimmy McGill, graduate of American Samoa School of Law, was able to definitively diagnose Chuck with a few hours effort. Do the job, Howard.

[Bryce Lynch]

15 minutes ago, Bannon said:

You didn't need to hire Jimmy as an employee to use his talents well, while insulating the firm's brand from negative exposure. Again, large litigation firms do this all the time.

Unless Howard, with the support of all the junior partners, demanded that Chuck seek the best medical attention available, under threat of being bought out, then Howard failed to fulfill his responsibilities. Good grief, Jimmy McGill, graduate of American Samoa School of Law, was able to definitively diagnose Chuck with a few hours effort. Do the job, Howard.

Huh? Jimmy was convinced for over a year that Chuck's condition was physical.  If the partners threatened Chuck with a buyout, he would have reacted the same way he did at the end of season 3 and sued or threatened to take down the firm by demanding all his share in cash.  The firm couldn't afford to buy out Chuck and the legal battle might have destroyed the firm.

The ONLY way Chuck would ever get treatment would have been to be involuntarily committed.  He only even began to consider his condition might be partly or entirely psychological, after the hearing with the battery trick and the public humiliation.  

I think the writers did a great job of writing Chuck as an essentially unsolvable problem.  Howard did his best to contain that problem, with Chuck being on an extended sabbatical.  It was probably the least risky of a lot of bad options, and if not for Jimmy's shenanigans with the MV documents, it might have worked.   

[SunnyBeBe]

Man.....and I was thinking that since Chuck was out of the picture, Howard would be too.  Oh well......

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Huh? Jimmy was convinced for over a year that Chuck's condition was physical.  If the partners threatened Chuck with a buyout, he would have reacted the same way he did at the end of season 3 and sued or threatened to take down the firm by demanding all his share in cash.  The firm couldn't afford to buy out Chuck and the legal battle might have destroyed the firm.

The ONLY way Chuck would ever get treatment would have been to be involuntarily committed.  He only even began to consider his condition might be partly or entirely psychological, after the hearing with the battery trick and the public humiliation.  

I think the writers did a great job of writing Chuck as an essentially unsolvable problem.  Howard did his best to contain that problem, with Chuck being on an extended sabbatical.  It was probably the least risky of a lot of bad options, and if not for Jimmy's shenanigans with the MV documents, it might have worked.   

When push came to shove,  Howard bought out Chuck, per the straightforward terms of the partnership agreement, no litigation involved. Push needed to come to shove much earlier. 

[Bryce Lynch]

12 minutes ago, Bannon said:

When push came to shove,  Howard bought out Chuck, per the straightforward terms of the partnership agreement, no litigation involved. Push needed to come to shove much earlier. 

Yeah, and that push and shove led to Chuck's death and quite possibly Howard's bankruptcy.  I'm not sure how the buyout terms get worked out now that Chuck is dead, but if he had lived, Howard would have been in deep financial trouble. He had to borrow to pay the first $3 million payment and he had 5 or 6 million more to pay.   Also, Chuck's condition was assumed by most people to be physical until after the hearing meltdown and it wasn't really harming the other partners until after the malpractice insurance increase.  I doubt enough of the other partners would have agreed to force out their ailing, highly respected founding partner, under those circumstances.  

I think you are grasping at loopholes that the writers did not intend to be available to Howard.  

[lovinbob]

Why did Nacho's dad give him the money? As I understood it, drugging Hector accomplished what Nacho set out to do: getting him out of his father's business. Is that not accurate? Was he trying to make a point? 

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, lovinbob said:

Why did Nacho's dad give him the money? As I understood it, drugging Hector accomplished what Nacho set out to do: getting him out of his father's business. Is that not accurate? Was he trying to make a point? 

It was the money that Hector basically forced Nacho's Dad to take.  He never wanted it and giving to Nacho was making the point that he wanted nothing to do with Nacho's illegal business.  I believe he laid it out in piles the same way Hector did.    He then asked Nacho when he would be getting himself out of the business.  What he wants most is for his son to give up the drug trade and make an honest living.  

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yeah, and that push and shove led to Chuck's death and quite possibly Howard's bankruptcy.  I'm not sure how the buyout terms get worked out now that Chuck is dead, but if he had lived, Howard would have been in deep financial trouble. He had to borrow to pay the first $3 million payment and he had 5 or 6 million more to pay.   Also, Chuck's condition was assumed by most people to be physical until after the hearing meltdown and it wasn't really harming the other partners until after the malpractice insurance increase.  I doubt enough of the other partners would have agreed to force out their ailing, highly respected founding partner, under those circumstances.  

I think you are grasping at loopholes that the writers did not intend to be available to Howard.  

Chuck's mental illness led to Chuck's death, and is more evidence that he wasn't mentally competent to be influencing the operation of the firm. Good grief, as soon as his condition became known to the firm's insurer, untenable premium increases resulted. Pro Tip. When the business plan includes "Our malpractice insurer will never find out that our senior partner lives, and does work, in a home without electrical service, with illumination provided by lamps", you don't have an adequate business plan, and having the remaining senior partner leverage up is the far better, albeit still painful, choice.

[jnymph]

Anyone else notice the "DINGS" Vince Gilligan is teasing us with ?     For example:  The elevator in the hospital "DING"  !  LMAO  

Aww. Kim loves Jimmy so much.   It's so sad knowing this relationship can't end well. : (    She needs to give him that letter from Chuck though.   That's up to Jimmy to decide what to do with it. 

[Quilt Fairy]

Some random thoughts:

Weren't Chuck and Rebecca divorced?  They've certainly been separated for many years and she's living and working abroad.  Because she's being treated as a grieving widow rather than an ex-wife.  

Why is it Hamlin, Hamlin & McGill rather than Hamlin McGill & Hamlin?  Howard would have come in as a junior partner to what was then Hamlin & McGill, so why wouldn't he have been "billed" last?  Or is it better not to get stuffed (and possibly ignored) in the middle? 

Gus Fring has never made much sense to me.  He has all this wealth and all this power and he has to hide it, 24/7.  He never seems to get a chance to enjoy it.  Instead, he's teaching new LPH employees how to use the fryer properly.  He's sweeping up the garbage in the parking lot, for heaven's sake! How is he different from Gene?  Has his whole life's work been to get revenge on Hector? What a waste. 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Quilt Fairy

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Some random thoughts:

Weren't Chuck and Rebecca divorced?  They've certainly been separated for many years and she's living and working abroad.  Because she's being treated as a grieving widow rather than an ex-wife.  

Why is it Hamlin, Hamlin & McGill rather than Hamlin McGill & Hamlin?  Howard would have come in as a junior partner to what was then Hamlin & McGill, so why wouldn't he have been "billed" last?  Or is it better not to get stuffed (and possibly ignored) in the middle? 

Gus Fring has never made much sense to me.  He has all this wealth and all this power and he has to hide it, 24/7.  He never seems to get a chance to enjoy it.  Instead, he's teaching new LPH employees how to use the fryer properly.  He's sweeping up the garbage in the parking lot, for heaven's sake! How is he different from Gene?  Has his whole life's work been to get revenge on Hector? What a waste. 

Well, most very successful organized criminals have talents and worth ethic needed to be successful in a law abiding life, at least in this country. Gus, of course, is Columbian, where law abiding wealth is not nearly as accessible, and once you've chosen a life of crime, I suspect path dependency has real influence. Who knows, though? Maybe Gus had a plan to seperate himself from Madrigal and meth distribution, after a few more years, if Walter White had not won that conflict.

[Quilt Fairy]

One more thought:

I don't think we've ever been told the true connection between Madrigal Electromotive and Gus.  I remember that the invoices for Gus's superlab were ordered and paid by Madrigal, but IIRC Madrigal is based in Germany.  Does Gus own Madrigal or just have a close working relationship? 

[Bannon]

40 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

One more thought:

I don't think we've ever been told the true connection between Madrigal Electromotive and Gus.  I remember that the invoices for Gus's superlab were ordered and paid by Madrigal, but IIRC Madrigal is based in Germany.  Does Gus own Madrigal or just have a close working relationship? 

Pollos Hermanos is a wholly owned subsidiary of Madrigal. in BB, after Gus was murdered, and his drug distribution business was revealed, Madrigal's German Headquarters were shown, and it was revealed that Madrigal's CEO was in on it, and as German law enforcement arrived to question him, he commited suicide with a defribillator.

My guess is that Gus pitched Pollos Hermanos to Madrigal's CEO as an acquisition, so Gus and the cartel could get easy access to meth precursors, at this time used in Mexico, and was giving a cut of meth profits to the CEO. Walter White's superior manufacturing techniques eventually become available, and Gus decides to move manufacturing to the U.S., and begins his revenge plot on Don Eladio.

The plotting on this show and BB is really great.

 

(edit) Now that I remember better, I think it more likely that Gus planned to eventually move manufacturing to the U.S. all the time, and then wipe out Don Eladio's organization. Walter White's superior manufacturing techniques just arrived coincidentally with Gus getting his U.S. superlab constructed, and Gus just saw it as good fortune that he would be able to pair Walter with his own chemist, Gayle Boettinger. Oops.

Like I said, the plotting in this universe is ingenious.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Bannon

[ShadowFacts]

32 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Some random thoughts:

Weren't Chuck and Rebecca divorced?  They've certainly been separated for many years and she's living and working abroad.  Because she's being treated as a grieving widow rather than an ex-wife.  

Why is it Hamlin, Hamlin & McGill rather than Hamlin McGill & Hamlin?  Howard would have come in as a junior partner to what was then Hamlin & McGill, so why wouldn't he have been "billed" last?  Or is it better not to get stuffed (and possibly ignored) in the middle? 

Gus Fring has never made much sense to me.  He has all this wealth and all this power and he has to hide it, 24/7.  He never seems to get a chance to enjoy it.  Instead, he's teaching new LPH employees how to use the fryer properly.  He's sweeping up the garbage in the parking lot, for heaven's sake! How is he different from Gene?  Has his whole life's work been to get revenge on Hector? What a waste. 

Chuck and Rebecca were divorced, but on good terms. 

Gus Fring's lifestyle was that of a civic-minded successful businessman so as to stay off of DEA radar, but as to what he was doing with his wealth, that is a cipher.  Maybe just amassing it, but there is his mysterious past and Lydia's comment that he is so much more than he seems.  Was he funneling money to a political cause in South America or something?  Or just a ruthless, meticulous, control freak purveyor of death? 

[Quilt Fairy]

12 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

but there is his mysterious past and Lydia's comment that he is so much more than he seems.  Was he funneling money to a political cause in South America or something?

There was always a hint - and just a hint - that he was related to a powerful Chilean family, perhaps a dictator or ex-dictator.  That's why Hector killed his partner ( and likely lover) rather than Gus.  It's also why the Mexican cartel bosses never entirely trusted him. 

It occurs to me that we're getting into BB spoiler territory.  Does anyone care anymore? 

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

There was always a hint - and just a hint - that he was related to a powerful Chilean family, perhaps a dictator or ex-dictator.  That's why Hector killed his partner ( and likely lover) rather than Gus.  It's also why the Mexican cartel bosses never entirely trusted him. 

It occurs to me that we're getting into BB spoiler territory.  Does anyone care anymore? 

That's right, Gus is Chilean, not Columbian, isn't he?

[benteen]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Hiring Jimmy was not an option for Howard, because Jimmy's own brother was (wisely) steadfastly opposed to it.  Besides that, no real, prestigious, law firm would ever promote a guy from the mailroom who got his degree from the University of American Samoa distance learning program, though apparently Howard was open to it and blocked by Chuck. 

Yeah, I never had an issue with this.  No way is a prestige law firm going to hire a guy who was in trouble with the law, worked in the mailroom for years and then got himself a shady law degree.  I never had a problem with Jimmy not being offered a job with HHM.  He didn't earn it and his background was too shady.

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, benteen said:

Yeah, I never had an issue with this.  No way is a prestige law firm going to hire a guy who was in trouble with the law, worked in the mailroom for years and then got himself a shady law degree.  I never had a problem with Jimmy not being offered a job with HHM.  He didn't earn it and his background was too shady.

I don't think anybody was saying it wasn't credible that a job at HHM wasn't offered to Jimmy.

[Tikichick]

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I was reading a comment elsewhere which brought up the similarity between what Gus did to Arturo with Nacho present and how Hector killed Gus' partner, though Arturo and Nacho did not have the same relationship as Gus and ?? (can't remember his name).  Gus knew firsthand what the effect would be, so has he considered that Nacho might become as vengeance-driven as he is?  Of course we know who is in BB and who isn't, but it doesn't mean that Nacho won't wreak some major chaos. 

Color me dumb, because I was stunned at Arturo's fate.  I was positive he worked for Gus in BB.

[Bannon]

35 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

There was always a hint - and just a hint - that he was related to a powerful Chilean family, perhaps a dictator or ex-dictator.  That's why Hector killed his partner ( and likely lover) rather than Gus.  It's also why the Mexican cartel bosses never entirely trusted him. 

It occurs to me that we're getting into BB spoiler territory.  Does anyone care anymore? 

I can't remember what the official policy is, but BB ended, what, 5  years ago, and this is BCS's 4th season? Can we not, by now, no longer have concern for BB spoilers?

[ShadowFacts]

24 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I can't remember what the official policy is, but BB ended, what, 5  years ago, and this is BCS's 4th season? Can we not, by now, no longer have concern for BB spoilers?

From moderator Dougal on February 11, 2015:  "The general guideline for the site is to try to avoid big spoilers for shows other than the one whose forum you're in, at least for a few years. There's not a formal policy about it as far as I know, but that's the polite thing to do.

In the case of a spinoff, though, it really seems ungainly to try to enforce that, and barely anyone in the episode threads and nobody here has said they haven't watched Breaking Bad. So, let's go with the obvious choice and declare no need for spoiler tags for Breaking Bad here, for anything."

[Portia]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Pollos Hermanos is a wholly owned subsidiary of Madrigal. in BB, after Gus was murdered, and his drug distribution business was revealed, Madrigal's German Headquarters were shown, and it was revealed that Madrigal's CEO was in on it, and as German law enforcement arrived to question him, he commited suicide with a defribillator.

Yup. In that BB scene at Madrigal's German HQ, I recall there being a huge open area where the logos of all its subsidiaries are displayed. I remember giving a little gasp when they panned to Los Pollos Hermanos logo.

[LoneHaranguer]

30 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Color me dumb, because I was stunned at Arturo's fate.  I was positive he worked for Gus in BB.

The scene made me wonder why Nacho didn't move to help Arturo at the end. It wasn't too late. Or did I miss seeing somebody hanging back to see that he didn't do that? Point made, so I don't know that Gus would have cared.

[SunnyBeBe]

2 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Some random thoughts:

Weren't Chuck and Rebecca divorced?  They've certainly been separated for many years and she's living and working abroad.  Because she's being treated as a grieving widow rather than an ex-wife.  

Why is it Hamlin, Hamlin & McGill rather than Hamlin McGill & Hamlin?  Howard would have come in as a junior partner to what was then Hamlin & McGill, so why wouldn't he have been "billed" last?  Or is it better not to get stuffed (and possibly ignored) in the middle? 

Gus Fring has never made much sense to me.  He has all this wealth and all this power and he has to hide it, 24/7.  He never seems to get a chance to enjoy it.  Instead, he's teaching new LPH employees how to use the fryer properly.  He's sweeping up the garbage in the parking lot, for heaven's sake! How is he different from Gene?  Has his whole life's work been to get revenge on Hector? What a waste. 

I wonder this too. So much stress, 24 hour job, constant danger....nice house and car, but, is it really worth it?

[peeayebee]

2 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

The scene made me wonder why Nacho didn't move to help Arturo at the end. It wasn't too late. Or did I miss seeing somebody hanging back to see that he didn't do that? Point made, so I don't know that Gus would have cared.

I believe Nacho's hands were tied, literally, and a gun was pointed at him.

Edited August 15, 2018 by peeayebee

[PotterOtherP]

Whenever I see a character being suffocated with a plastic bag (which also happened a lot on Narcos) I'm reminded of Haruki Murakami's description of it in 1Q84 as like being suddenly plunged to the bottom of the ocean, a hellishly painful way to die.

[JudyObscure]

4 hours ago, Tikichick said:

For me Jimmy's job interview and complete meltdown upon being offered the job was the manifestation of Jimmy internalizing Chuck's opinion of him and completely disintegrating in the face of accepting it as inescapable.  Down deep he's stuck with the idea that Chuck is always right, including about him -- and stuck with the idea that Chuck will always have the last word on the subject because he kicked over the lamp and died to tell Jimmy he knew what he did.

This makes more sense to me than the theory that he had too much disdain for the two men to work for them.  I didn't see his performance as a con but as a demonstration of what a fantastic salesman he would be and I thought they were smart to hire him on the spot -- providing they check his references that afternoon.  His spiel about the copier being the heartbeat of the office reminded me of Don Draper's performances for clients on "Mad Men," and while all advertising is a con in a very broad sense, it really isn't the same as Slippin' Jimmy's cons.

Jimmy may have thought his father was a chump but I don't think he hates all "nice" people.  I thought he truly liked his elder law clients.  Even  "Gene" was more patient with his hospital checkout clerk than I would have been.

If Kim doesn't give Jimmy that letter she's not  the queen of sound ethics I think she is.  It's my guess she was just waiting for the next morning because Jimmy was in a rare good mood and she had other plans for him.  What?  White Heat is one of my favorite movies.

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

This makes more sense to me than the theory that he had too much disdain for the two men to work for them.  I didn't see his performance as a con but as a demonstration of what a fantastic salesman he would be and I thought they were smart to hire him on the spot -- providing they check his references that afternoon.  His spiel about the copier being the heartbeat of the office reminded me of Don Draper's performances for clients on "Mad Men," and while all advertising is a con in a very broad sense, it really isn't the same as Slippin' Jimmy's cons.

Jimmy may have thought his father was a chump but I don't think he hates all "nice" people.  I thought he truly liked his elder law clients.  Even  "Gene" was more patient with his hospital checkout clerk than I would have been.

If Kim doesn't give Jimmy that letter she's not  the queen of sound ethics I think she is.  It's my guess she was just waiting for the next morning because Jimmy was in a rare good mood and she had other plans for him.  What?  White Heat is one of my favorite movies.

Yeah, I don't think Kim thought Chuck's letter from beyond quite ranked with oysters and champagne, in terms of aphrodisiac effect.

[EtheltoTillie]

This may be the wrong thread, but I suddenly remembered that this year the new show Good Girls had a plot about stealing Hummels from an old lady.  I also think the drug kingpin on that show looks a lot like Nacho.  But it is a different actor. 

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, GussieK said:

This may be the wrong thread, but I suddenly remembered that this year the new show Good Girls had a plot about stealing Hummels from an old lady.  I also think the drug kingpin on that show looks a lot like Nacho.  But it is a different actor. 

So I became curious about where the Hummels market is now (I had a client who unloaded some 20 years ago), and it has fallen a lot, with most pieces running about 100 bucks, it seems. There were still some with 4 figure fair market value, however, which I thought was interesting.

[Bryce Lynch]

10 minutes ago, Bannon said:

So I became curious about where the Hummels market is now (I had a client who unloaded some 20 years ago), and it has fallen a lot, with most pieces running about 100 bucks, it seems. There were still some with 4 figure fair market value, however, which I thought was interesting.

I was just looking into that.  Most seem to go for less than $100, and most seem to be at roughly 1/3 of their original MSRP.  

The particular one that Jimmy was looking to steal appears to be the "Merry Wanderer" (the website Jimmy is on mislabels it "Bavarian Boy") and seems to be valued at about $120, though it appears some Jimmy McGill types have started selling them at inflated prices, since the show aired.  :)

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I was just looking into that.  Most seem to go for less than $100, and most seem to be at roughly 1/3 of their original MSRP.  

The particular one that Jimmy was looking to steal appears to be the "Merry Wanderer" (the website Jimmy is on mislabels it "Bavarian Boy") and seems to be valued at about $120, though it appears some Jimmy McGill types have started selling them at inflated prices, since the show aired.  :)

Amazing how market value for stuff like that is mostly just a state of mind. in real life, I think the market collapse in Hummels had been more than a half decade old at the time of last night's episode. It'll be kind of funny if Jimmy jumps through a bunch of hoops to get his mitts on what Copier Poobah Neff thinks is a bunch of crap, and it turns out Copier Poobah Neff is right!

Edited August 15, 2018 by Bannon
Spelled the name wrong!

[LoneHaranguer]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I believe Nacho's hands were tied, literally, and a gun was pointed at him.

Only Arturo's hands were tied. Nacho was kneeling with his hands raised at shoulder height while Gus spoke to him. The way it was filmed left me the impression that everyone cleared out after Gus was done. The guy that had been in the darkness behind Gus when he walked away seemed to be gone.

[ShadowFacts]

17 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Only Arturo's hands were tied. Nacho was kneeling with his hands raised at shoulder height while Gus spoke to him. The way it was filmed left me the impression that everyone cleared out after Gus was done. The guy that had been in the darkness behind Gus when he walked away seemed to be gone.

I think all of the henchmen remained in place when Gus walked away.  There was an overhead shot.  There was no way Nacho was going to be allowed to help Arturo. 

1 hour ago, PotterOtherP said:

Whenever I see a character being suffocated with a plastic bag (which also happened a lot on Narcos) I'm reminded of Haruki Murakami's description of it in 1Q84 as like being suddenly plunged to the bottom of the ocean, a hellishly painful way to die.

Anyone who has ever had a laryngospasm or severe asthma attack or near drowning will attest that it is terrifying.  Sheer panic.