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S01.E06: Cherry

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On 8/14/2018 at 8:56 PM, Anela said:

As someone said above, because Adora told him to. He has no spine, and doesn't want to lose Adora, I guess. On her part, I think she was testing loyalty, or making it clear that Alan would take her side. It just seemed like a Queen Bee move. 

 

On 8/15/2018 at 1:19 AM, SarahPrtr said:

I like all the FU moments Camille pulls on Alan and Adora - gulping down the drink at the wake and slamming down the glass and storming out of the change room at the store in just her bra and undies when Adora wouldn't shut up, and giving the finger to Alan.  Yeah, you show 'em, Camille!  I would've been too scared to do that to my parents when I was younger, but now, I don't give a shit.  If they yell, I'll yell back.  If they curse at me, I'll curse back.  If they hit me, I'll hit them back.  It's a life with that part of your fear removed, and it's very freeing.  I see why people live their lives without giving a shit.

 

10 hours ago, Jlyblylvr said:

I have not read the book, and I haven't watched the episodes as closely as some of the posters here. But Wind Gap (and by extension, many of its citizens) reminds me of a person who has been traumatized but does not realize yet that they are behaving in response to their trauma. Camille is the person who seems to be the most outwardly dysfunctional - the all-black clothing, the alcoholic drinking, the scars, the refusal to be polite - but she is the one who seems to be getting closest to the truth of what happened with the murders. Amy Adams mentioned in an interview that as Camille gets closer to discovering the truth about the murders, she gets closer to discovering the truth about her family. I hope that the story has a satisfying conclusion and we find out what is at the heart of the Crellin-Preaker family dysfunction.

I imagine Alan is entirely dependant upon Adora's money. He probably had never held a real job and probably feels too old or set in his ways to learn new skills. If Adora kicks him out he will be lost. He is nothing more than a possession to provide her with more daughters and keep her respectable. Alan is a nice looking older man who blandly blends in with the decor of the home and is totally subservient to his wife.

I loved it when Camille flipped him off. I sort of wonder why Camille does not choose clothing of another color to cover up her scars? Is the black a deliberate rebellion against the soft colors of femininity that she grew up with in Wind Gap?

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Maybe the black clothes are a "fuck-you" response to the feminine clothes her mother offered to her. Or - and this is less subtle - they may just represent the mourning she is experiencing for her lost childhood, her lost innocence, and the sense of security that every person deserves to feel.

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1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I imagine Alan is entirely dependant upon Adora's money. He probably had never held a real job and probably feels too old or set in his ways to learn new skills. If Adora kicks him out he will be lost. He is nothing more than a possession to provide her with more daughters and keep her respectable. Alan is a nice looking older man who blandly blends in with the decor of the home and is totally subservient to his wife.

Alan's role is a little weird, isn't it?  He's the gentleman of the manor, yet really not much more than the male doll in Amma's dollhouse.  He even kind of looks like a doll.  I don't think it's coincidental that we're shown spider webs, even a spider wrapping up her prey for later, as part of the introduction.  We know what female spiders do.  He is kept, and Adora seems to control their sex life (we know they have one because she's borne him two daughters; otherwise, I'd be skeptical that she allows him to touch her).  He spends his day isolated, listening to music on headphones and reading of all things National Geographic--did you catch the shelves of them in the music/living room?  Does his choice of reading material indicate he'd like to travel, to get out of Wind Gap?  Or is it the half-naked women who are sometimes shown in that magazine--I know that's what made it favorite "reading" material for boys in junior high school long before the internets.  He's a natty dresser who seems to have no place to go other than to drive Adora around; he knows his place--when he's told the shopping trip is "girls only" he knows that he is the chauffeur, not part of the party.  He hovers and sympathizes with Adora.

And yet.  He finally bursts out, reminding her that *he* lost a daughter, too, and she doesn't seem to "give him credit" for bearing his grief without complaint.  What a strange way to put it!  He didn't criticize her for acting as if she were the only one who loved Marian, whose loss must have been a heart-break, but for not acknowledging how bravely he's held up, I guess in contrast to her constantly reminding anyone who'll listen what a "strong" woman she has had to be.

Henry Czerny, like every single other person in the cast, is magnificent in his role.  I can't think of a single cast member who seems mis-cast  or who isn't doing an extraordinary job of bringing these people to life.  When I saw that Elizabeth Perkins (she plays Jackie) was in it, I rolled my eyes because I find her a little hard to take, but boy, her Jackie is totally on the mark.  Hers is one of the most un-selfish performances in this show--she is allowing herself to look blowsy and vulgar, and she is perfect, imo.  Even if the director is only Canadian-French, he's really, really good at  getting the best out of his actors.

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13 hours ago, Mothra said:

Although Adora has positioned herself as the one person who protects the grieving families from unkind intrusions and worries about how they'll ever get over this, who says it's her duty to look after the families of Wind Gap, Camille, it seems to me, bears the burden of suffering for the sins of the town.  I think the cross references, even the "sacrifice" of the rape(s), and especially the blood sacrifice of her cutting indicate her role as not quite scapegoat and not quite Christ figure, but something between.  In a larger, shallower, sense, this is the role of all the women in Wind Gap, starting with Milly (Camilly?) Calhoun, who suffered rape and torture and the loss of her baby as a burden of love to save her husband, whose "sin" was more than fighting for the South, more than abandoning his pregnant young wife--and this is the sacrifice the town celebrates annually. 

Oh, I just love this!

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I really don't understand all the comments in here about her all black clothing. How or rather why do they symbolize her dysfunction? To me they are about her being a "big city" woman now and how she doesn't dress like the "Southern Belle" former cheerleader types she left behind. Plenty of people dress all in black as a style preference.

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22 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Not every cheerleader is necessarily a flyer. It’s the tiniest girls who are usually the designated flyers on the squad. The other girls are the bases (the ones who stay on the ground). There are also high school squads that mostly do poms and dancing without stunting. 

Cheerleaders wear bodysuits for a reason. And sometimes they change into them together.

14 hours ago, Jlyblylvr said:

Maybe the black clothes are a "fuck-you" response to the feminine clothes her mother offered to her. Or - and this is less subtle - they may just represent the mourning she is experiencing for her lost childhood, her lost innocence, and the sense of security that every person deserves to feel.

Or shes emo, like a teenager. Her emotional maturity kind of stopped aat that age. She acts like a child in a lot of ways, including flipping Alan off.

 

11 hours ago, DiabLOL said:

I really don't understand all the comments in here about her all black clothing. How or rather why do they symbolize her dysfunction? To me they are about her being a "big city" woman now and how she doesn't dress like the "Southern Belle" former cheerleader types she left behind. Plenty of people dress all in black as a style preference.

Its the style of the clothes. She dresses in dark colors, but its not chic clothing. Its the opposite of urbane and classy. Its functional and workwear, She always looks like shes wearing dark jeggings with some oversized untucked work shirt, and boots.

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53 minutes ago, Mothra said:

It's really hot here in PA today, and I'm thinking about how hot Wind Gap must be.  A big house like Adora's would be fairly cool because of the way big southern houses were designed.  That wraparound porch on the first floor would shade the first floor interior, and probably every morning the blinds and curtains would have been drawn against the bright sun, keeping the cool night air inside for as long as possible.  That big empty stairwell probably served as what used to be called a belvedere, a sort of heat vent, with an opening--like a cupola or even a vented skylight--at the top to allow hot air out through the roof.  If you close all the windows and doors on the sunny side of the house, and open some on the shaded side, the belvedere will create a draft, pulling cooler air in at the bottom and letting the hot air out at the top.    Many old southern houses have a "straight-through" first floor, with a hall that runs unobstructed from the front door to the back.  With front and back doors open, a breeze is allowed to blow through. 

Another way old houses handle heat is through transoms, those vent-windows over the interior doors.  The ones in Adora's house have beautiful stained glass in them, which I've never seen in real houses; transoms are practical, not decorative.  You open them to let hot air, which rises, out.  The people in charge of this show might not know what transoms are for because in Adora's house, they are not only decorative, but closed.  An obsolete expression, "through the transom," refers to unsolicited manuscripts left at publishers' offices.

Please forgive my preachy tone:  I'm an old lady who grew up in houses like Adora's, and memories make me loquacious.

That was really interesting. Southern homes like this seem more welcoming to live in than regular  old Victorian homes, which have really cramped quarters and narrow claustrophobic hallways.

Edited by Buttless
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44 minutes ago, Buttless said:

That was really interesting. Southern homes like this seem more welcoming to live in than regular  old Victorian homes, which have really cramped quarters and narrow claustrophobic hallways.

Adora's house is a Victorian. There are many kinds. City Victorians are often terraced (i.e. attached) and very narrow. That's why they have smaller rooms and corridors. Only wealthy people -- anywhere -- have houses like Adora's. Poor Southerners' houses would not have looked like this at all. 

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1 hour ago, Buttless said:

Its the style of the clothes. She dresses in dark colors, but its not chic clothing. Its the opposite of urbane and classy. Its functional and workwear, She always looks like shes wearing dark jeggings with some oversized untucked work shirt, and boots.

Camille always looks sloppy, not chic.  I keep wishing she'd put on a light colored cotton shirt so she can reflect the light and heat instead of absorbing it.  Her clothes feel so claustrophobic to me, which is the point, I guess.

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1 hour ago, izabella said:

Camille always looks sloppy, not chic.  I keep wishing she'd put on a light colored cotton shirt so she can reflect the light and heat instead of absorbing it.  Her clothes feel so claustrophobic to me, which is the point, I guess.

I agree.  There must be a reason she chooses to wear dark clothing.  Light-colored, light-weight long-sleeved shirts and pants would cover her scars just as well as what she is wearing, and be a lot more comfortable.  Maybe all her underwear is black--what we've seen certainly is.  When she wore the black dress Adora loaned her to the funeral, I noticed she wore stockings that were not particularly opaque, which surprised me.  I expected to see her in black stockings.  And her scars, to my eyes anyway, didn't show through the regular stockings.

The sloppiness of her look might be a symptom of being a rape victim.  Sometimes women who've been raped wear baggy, unattractive clothing to make sure they won't attract sexual attention.  Her pants are pretty tight, though, so who knows?

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2 hours ago, carrps said:

Adora's house is a Victorian. There are many kinds. City Victorians are often terraced (i.e. attached) and very narrow. That's why they have smaller rooms and corridors. Only wealthy people -- anywhere -- have houses like Adora's. Poor Southerners' houses would not have looked like this at all. 

Yes; Caarps; that's why I said,

Quote

Southern homes like this seem more welcoming to live in than regular  old Victorian homes

It was implied that they were both a kind of Vic house, and those narrow ones were built in and around cities, and therefore more abundant ("regular"), and that this type was rural. It's obvious that not all southerners had/have manions. If that were true,  more people woud have migrated there, than have emigrated from there.

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Just now, Buttless said:

Yes; Caarps; that's why I said,

It was implied that they were both a kind of Vic house, and those narrow ones were built in and around cities, and therefore more abundant ("regular"), and that this type was rural.

Sorry, your phrasing wasn't clear to me.

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2 hours ago, izabella said:

Camille always looks sloppy, not chic.  I keep wishing she'd put on a light colored cotton shirt so she can reflect the light and heat instead of absorbing it.  Her clothes feel so claustrophobic to me, which is the point, I guess.

Yes; straight to the point. She looks like she's lived in those clothes so long that she's built up layers of sweat stains.. It makes me think she smells like a used clothing store.  Her boots look uncomfortable. She walks sort  of pigeon-toed, so it looks like they hurt her feet.

Im always wanting Amy Adams to move her hair out of her face. That hank of hair hanging down looks crappy, and when shes sweating so much, it seems like it would get dirty, fast.

 

19 minutes ago, carrps said:

High five!

Up top!

Edited by Buttless
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6 minutes ago, Buttless said:

Up top!

Down low on the flip side!

Yeah, the clothes Camille wears aren't just dark. They're dank. She looks like she smells bad.

But the way they're portraying the heat (especially this episode), everybody looks like they smell bad.

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16 minutes ago, carrps said:

Yeah, the clothes Camille wears aren't just dark. They're dank. She looks like she smells bad.

I think this is all to show how she is (maybe not consciously) working hard at being the misfit, the one who doesn't meet expectations set for her, expectations she used to live up to.

We've had several characters say how gorgeous she was, how she was the town star, how people still talk about the light she had in high school. And she is doing everything to not be that girl. That girl's star power got her raped. Camille is working hard to show that she is not that girl anymore.

Edited by ChicagoCita
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Amma: Did girls like you growing up? Boys are easy. You just let them do stuff to you.
Camille: You shouldn't let them do that.
Amma: When you let them do it to you, you're really doing it to them. You have the control and they like you. It's not the same with girls. I can get them to do what I want, but they don't like you.

What does Amma mean by this?  Is she the killer and did she manipulate one or both of those boys in her posse to help kill and/or mutilate the victims?

17 minutes ago, ChicagoCita said:

I think this is all to show how she is (maybe not consciously) working hard at being the misfit, the one who doesn't meet expectations set for her, expectations she used to live up to.

We've had several characters say how gorgeous she was, how she was the town star, how people still talk about the light she had in high school. And she is doing everything to not be that girl. That girl's star power got her raped. Camille is working hard to show that she is not that girl anymore.

We never see her be that girl wit the special light in any of the flashbacks, though, do we? She looks really common; she 's not an outstanding beauty. She seems like a mean bitchy teen. No charm or charIsma.  So could it be that they threw all that praise on her because she was Adora's daughter, and Adora ran the town?

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Back to hair topic - as someone with similar type of hair as Camille's here, the point in her hair at the bottom is the result of not caring/not getting it cut.

Because I know hair grow faster at the nape, and we end up with a V shape that looks like a rat tail. Straight haired girls have it cut this way, but curly haired girls know that doesn't work for them. But it gets this way if we forget about the hairdresser.

So, short hair Camille happy with her sister, and later long haired Camille: for me, if she was happy with her short hair, it could mean she stopped giving a fuck.

Alternatively, based on personal experience: her mother insisted that her hair was cut short. After her sister's death, Adora was busy with her pain, and Camille was able to grow her hair, almost on the down low, and she's continued since. And it's twice the rebellion:  Adora wanted her to keep short hair, to be less feminine; she doesn't but still she lets her hair live wild, which is probably another in that town and one that must be painful for her mother (mother of the year, that one, sheesh, not maternal is one thing, and then there's her.)

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2 hours ago, Buttless said:

We never see her be that girl wit the special light in any of the flashbacks, though, do we? She looks really common; she 's not an outstanding beauty. She seems like a mean bitchy teen. No charm or charIsma.

Someone said that the flashbacks are all through her perspective. She probably saw herself as flawed. To others, who have said it to her, she was the golden girl.

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What does Amma mean by this?  Is she the killer and did she manipulate one or both of those boys in her posse to help kill and/or mutilate the victims?

I took it to mean an explanation of "popularity" as it relates to gender. Amma has her girl friends but she seems to understand the superficial nature of it: boys want to be able "do stuff" so they like Amma and so she's "popular." Girls want to be popular by association (and with the guys) so they stick with a ringleader kind of girl who lays that path for them, whether or not they actually know or like her. Patriarchal nonsense from an adolescent POV. I think Amma wants from Camille the sisterly and real bond that isn't coming from her little posse, especially from someone who came from where Amma herself comes from.

Either way, looks like girls—no matter what “type”—don’t have an easy time in Wind Gap.

Edited by TattleTeeny
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9 hours ago, Buttless said:

Cheerleaders wear bodysuits for a reason. And sometimes they change into them together.

Bodysuits as in leotards? The cheerleaders at my high school and college all wore traditional cheer uniforms with the shell top and separate skirt (with optional sweaters for night games if it was cold). In high school, my sister was a cheerleader and I was on the dance team. We were told by our coaches to always show up for games in uniform with our hair and makeup done. On game days, the cheerleaders wore their uniforms to school so they left their houses at 7am already in uniform. They were allowed to touch up their hair and makeup for the game since that was 12 long hours later, but they didn't take off their uniforms between the time school ended and the time the game started.

I'm pretty sure the girls on the dance team saw more of my naked skin than my sister's cheer teammates did of hers because on dance we had costume changes for performances while the cheer team stayed in their uniforms the entire time. Although people sometimes changed in the locker room, it was entirely possible for the cheerleaders not to change in front of each other if they didn't want to. I'm assuming the same was true of Camille's squad since we saw them wearing their uniforms at school (I'm assuming that scene we saw this week was at the end of practice or before a  game).

I know it's easy to assume that girls on a team see each other in a state of undress frequently (and it's true in some cases) but it is really easy NOT to change in front of people if you're shy or uncomfortable because when you're on a team, there are so many other people around that you aren't keeping track of what everyone's doing in the locker room before a game. And even if you do change in front of each other, people are busy getting themselves together, not looking at everyone else. Camille's high school cutting seems like it was similar to Alice's in that she was cutting herself in places that were covered by her clothing. She probably thought that cutting herself somewhere on her thigh would be hidden by her cheer skirt, which is actually true. Becca wouldn't have seen her cut if she hadn't been kneeling there and at such close range. Even from a few feet away, Katie and Gretchen didn't notice the cut (just the blood as she walked away).

I was wondering how Camille managed to hide her cuts during the summer because I imagined that one of the cheerleaders would have pool parties. I guess if she was only cutting on her torso and she wore a one piece suit, that would hide everything (but I'm imagining the other cheerleaders teasing her for not wearing a bikini).

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On 8/14/2018 at 12:46 PM, Mothra said:

I wonder if Becky was raped.  She is the only black cheerleader.  It looked to me that all the football players were white--in itself unusual, I think.  I wonder if racism protected Becky?

It’s not unusual for a small town with hardly any people of color. I’m guessing back when Camille was in high school there was probably just a couple of black families; modern day, I bet there are hispanics. But we don’t know if they even live in Wind Gap, it’s very common for people to work in one small town because that is where the jobs are and live in the next small town over. I see it all the time in small towns in my own state. 

Also I don’t think either Gayla or Becky fall into the magical negro trope. I think their portrayal is absolutely spot on for a small southern town like Wind Gap. Hate to sound mean but they would be non entities to the whites around them; especially those members of the ruling class for that town. As the maid, cook, etc Gayla wouldn’t be be chatting with Adora like they are old friends. She’s domestic help; she does her job, is cordial and respectful, and goes home. She’s no doubt very empathetic to Adora’s girls but there’s not much more to it. 

I’m not even trying to make sense of Camille’s hair and the timeline. Wasn’t it long when she went into moms room to touch the camera, then short before her sister died, and then long again......

Edited by ShellsandCheese
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4 hours ago, ChicagoCita said:

Someone said that the flashbacks are all through her perspective. She probably saw herself as flawed. To others, who have said it to her, she was the golden girl.

i was looking at older episodes and  when she's in the bar with Richard and he says something about Jackie, Camille says shes been the only one from there who was nice to her. He doesn't believe her because he's been told by people there that she was the golden girl  when she lived there. And she says, 'I meant genuinely nice.'

So maybe they kissed her butt because she was Adora's kid?

 

Also,  strictly speaking, some of the flashbacks are not from her perspective.

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On 8/16/2018 at 8:16 PM, TattleTeeny said:

I took it to mean an explanation of "popularity" as it relates to gender. Amma has her girl friends but she seems to understand the superficial nature of it: boys want to be able "do stuff" so they like Amma and so she's "popular." Girls want to be popular by association (and with the guys) so they stick with a ringleader kind of girl who lays that path for them, whether or not they actually know or like her. Patriarchal nonsense from an adolescent POV. I think Amma wants from Camille the sisterly and real bond that isn't coming from her little posse, especially from someone who came from where Amma herself comes from.

Either way, looks like girls—no matter what “type”—don’t have an easy time in Wind Gap.

 

i mean, maybe that's  a sociopaths take on female friendship? Most girls arent using their girlfriends for popularity in high school, and the bonds can be deep. She mentions that the girl who lets the guys do stuff to her are the ones in control. So they are in control of those guys liking her, but its just as superficial as what she thinks the female friendship is. If she didnt let the boys do stuff to her, threyd lose interest in her faster than her girl pals would. So I think she meant she could manipulate those guys she had on a string by letting them do things to her; whereas the girls couldnt be played that way.

Btw, even those Camille  is high, youd think if she felt something for Amma she'd be more emphatic about telling her not to sell herself out to boys, who are just using her, since a lot of her trauma came fro, a situation of boys exploiting her body.

 

23 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Bodysuits as in leotards? The cheerleaders at my high school and college all wore traditional cheer uniforms with the shell top and separate skirt (with optional sweaters for night games if it was cold). In high school, my sister was a cheerleader and I was on the dance team. We were told by our coaches to always show up for games in uniform with our hair and makeup done. On game days, the cheerleaders wore their uniforms to school so they left their houses at 7am already in uniform. They were allowed to touch up their hair and makeup for the game since that was 12 long hours later, but they didn't take off their uniforms between the time school ended and the time the game started.

I'm pretty sure the girls on the dance team saw more of my naked skin than my sister's cheer teammates did of hers because on dance we had costume changes for performances while the cheer team stayed in their uniforms the entire time. Although people sometimes changed in the locker room, it was entirely possible for the cheerleaders not to change in front of each other if they didn't want to. I'm assuming the same was true of Camille's squad since we saw them wearing their uniforms at school (I'm assuming that scene we saw this week was at the end of practice or before a  game).

I know it's easy to assume that girls on a team see each other in a state of undress frequently (and it's true in some cases) but it is really easy NOT to change in front of people if you're shy or uncomfortable because when you're on a team, there are so many other people around that you aren't keeping track of what everyone's doing in the locker room before a game. And even if you do change in front of each other, people are busy getting themselves together, not looking at everyone else. Camille's high school cutting seems like it was similar to Alice's in that she was cutting herself in places that were covered by her clothing. She probably thought that cutting herself somewhere on her thigh would be hidden by her cheer skirt, which is actually true. Becca wouldn't have seen her cut if she hadn't been kneeling there and at such close range. Even from a few feet away, Katie and Gretchen didn't notice the cut (just the blood as she walked away).

I was wondering how Camille managed to hide her cuts during the summer because I imagined that one of the cheerleaders would have pool parties. I guess if she was only cutting on her torso and she wore a one piece suit, that would hide everything (but I'm imagining the other cheerleaders teasing her for not wearing a bikini).

Thats an interesting anecdote, but not every school or cheerleading squad is run that way.  Some do not wear their outfits all day, for various reasons,  and do change before the games.  Especially if they arent doing some sort of rally for the school during the day.

Also cheerleaders, even the ones who are part of the "base", jump, bend, and kick their legs up. All things that lift their skirts ( which are short to begin with), so that thighs are seen. That's why they wear bodysuits or a bottom panty that matches their outfit.   And im going to say, if Camille bled that heavy from a cut on her thigh, that cut would be visible even from the bleachers.

 

23 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

It’s not unusual for a small town with hardly any people of color. I’m guessing back when Camille was in high school there was probably just a couple of black families; modern day, I bet there are hispanics. But we don’t know if they even live in Wind Gap, it’s very common for people to work in one small town because that is where the jobs are and live in the next small town over. I see it all the time in small towns in my own state. 

Also I don’t think either Gayla or Becky fall into the magical negro trope. I think their portrayal is absolutely spot on for a small southern town like Wind Gap. Hate to sound mean but they would be non entities to the whites around them; especially those members of the ruling class for that town. As the maid, cook, etc Gayla wouldn’t be be chatting with Adora like they are old friends. She’s domestic help; she does her job, is cordial and respectful, and goes home. She’s no doubt very empathetic to Adora’s girls but there’s not much more to it. 

I’m not even trying to make sense of Camille’s hair and the timeline. Wasn’t it long when she went into moms room to touch the camera, then short before her sister died, and then long again......

 

Quote

Original question: I wonder if Becky was raped.  She is the only black cheerleader.  It looked to me that all the football players were white--in itself unusual, I think.  I wonder if racism protected Becky?

 

I think it's twice as likely, or more actually,  that Becca wouldve been raped by those white boys, based on racism and the perception of her 'race' status as beneath the standing or worthiness of a white person, and therefore less protected as a white person. Man, if we;ve learned anything about race relations in the South, its that the black women were significantly more in danger of being raped than the white ones, *because* of racism, and not in spite of it.

 

The question of whether thats how it was for blacks approximately 20 years ago (because that is the timeline; 20 or less years ago) is completely moot.  It has to do with how people oof color are being portrayed  * by the film makers* that  is the matter.    None of them have an inner life. They xist in the finsihed product to prop up the goodness of Camille. There are no "magical Negros" in real life. That s is solely a term used to describe, in this case, black people who exist to prop up the other characters. All three of the black women characters in this , so far, exist only in those capacities. I dont even recall seeing a back man in this, let alone hearing one talk. But ive missed quite a few things, so far. Anyway, its so glaring that I find it hard to believe that the topr 3 women  who produced and created this show werent aware of it, and I wonder if there was footage making them more 3D that was cut out of the show.  Still, theyre judged on the final product.

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8 hours ago, Buttless said:

i mean, maybe that's  a sociopaths take on female friendship? Most girls arent using their girlfriends for popularity in high school, and the bonds can be deep. She mentions that the girl who lets the guys do stuff to her are the ones in control. So they are in control of those guys liking her, but its just as superficial as what she thinks the female friendship is. If she didnt let the boys do stuff to her, threyd lose interest in her faster than her girl pals would. So I think she meant she could manipulate those guys she had on a string by letting them do things to her; whereas the girls couldnt be played that way.

Btw, even those Camille  is high, youd think if she felt something for Amma she'd be more emphatic about telling her not to sell herself out to boys, who are just using her, since a lot of her trauma came fro, a situation of boys exploiting her body.

Not saying that's it’s my, or all girls', way of thinking or that it’s sound reasoning (I’m still close friends with my high-school female friends to this day, in fact)—and what I described isn't by definition sociopathic (though maybe teenage girl brains come close sometimes--haha, I kid!); there  are tons of studies about adolescents' (particularly girls’) methods and mindsets of navigating their social environments. But this is TV, and I am talking specifically about Amma, who is fucked up, calculating, duplicitous, and quite obviously not an example of “most girls.” Also, yes, clearly she is also manipulating the boys; I didn’t say otherwise—what I said actually bolsters that sentiment.

Edited by TattleTeeny
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9 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Also I don’t think either Gayla or Becky fall into the magical negro trope. I think their portrayal is absolutely spot on for a small southern town like Wind Gap. Hate to sound mean but they would be non entities to the whites around them; especially those members of the ruling class for that town. As the maid, cook, etc Gayla wouldn’t be be chatting with Adora like they are old friends. She’s domestic help; she does her job, is cordial and respectful, and goes home. She’s no doubt very empathetic to Adora’s girls but there’s not much more to it. 

I really have to disagree with you here.  In the south, black hired help like Gayla occupied a very peculiar place in the families that employed them, especially if they had worked there forever, as Gayla apparently has.  Notice that Gayla kisses Adora good-night, for example.  Black housekeepers were privy to all the white family's dirt and were very protective of them, almost as if it were their own, blood, families.  Gayla does occupy a mother-like position in Camille's family, as historically black women did--think of Gone with the Wind and the general popular notion of the place of "mammies" in southern white families. And that, I think, is the absolute origin of the Magical Negro--the loving, kind, asexual (especially asexual) standin for all the good human qualities that the white characters are allowed not to show.  Can you imagine Gayla doing anything mean, even to Camille?  You might think Gayla behaves the way she does to protect her job, but if she's lasted this long with Adora's family, she is "part of the family," which is a lie, of course, because none of the white characters gives two shits about Gayla's life outside of her serving them.

I did see another black face on rewatching--the greeter at the church for Natalie's funeral.  Didn't see any black faces in the congregation, though.  As Gayla said, in Wind Gap employment opportunities for black people are pretty much limited to domestic work and the slaughterhouse.  Maybe we haven't seen more black faces because we haven't seen all that many people who work at the slaughterhouse.  I am guessing that the crude ex-football players work there, and of course we saw Natalie's brother lose his job there, but for all the talk of Mexicans working at the slaughterhouse, we haven't seen any brown faces, either.

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15 hours ago, Buttless said:

What does Amma mean by this?  Is she the killer and did she manipulate one or both of those boys in her posse to help kill and/or mutilate the victims?

Oooh.  Hadn't thought of that.  I never considered that it might be more than one person.

 

8 hours ago, Buttless said:

 

Never mind.  Thought I had something to say but didn't.

2 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Wow.  Thanks for posting this.  It looks to me like none of the interior shots is from  the real house, just the exteriors.  But what a magnificent house it is.  Much fancier than anything I grew up with.  If all the interior scenes are from constructed sets, I think we can assume that there are reasons for every weird thing, like the position of Camille's bedroom in that upstairs hall.  There were intentional decisions made as to how to depict the interior, and I think that's really significant.

So, since it's a matter of sets, there is no blueprint.  Dammit!

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I was pretty convinced Adora was the killer until this episode. Now I've decided it's Amma and Adora must know and planted the bike. 

I agree that Jackie knows a hell of a lot more than she's letting on. Tell somebody. But I do enjoy her so show her more.

 I felt really disturbed and gross watching that party scene. Especially the way Amma was acting. 

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1 hour ago, Court said:

I was pretty convinced Adora was the killer until this episode. Now I've decided it's Amma and Adora must know and planted the bike. 

I agree that Jackie knows a hell of a lot more than she's letting on. Tell somebody. But I do enjoy her so show her more.

 I felt really disturbed and gross watching that party scene. Especially the way Amma was acting. 

Except that I never thought Adora was the killer, I agree with everything you say.  I think what Jackie knows is really crucial, and I'm thinking it relates to what's wrong with Camille, and I'm not just talking about the cutting.  I think something happened--not the rape, which I'm not sure Jackie would know about--that would explain a whole lot about why Adora insists that Camille is "dangerous."  Because Camille identifies so much with the murdered girls, I'm wondering if Camille made some serious physical assault on someone, like Natalie and the pencil in the eye (which is just ghastly, particularly in response to something so minor as a stolen pencil) and Natalie and presumably biting off John's girlfriend's ear.  Those are pretty serious, yet no one in town seems horrified enough, if you know what I mean.  The veneer of "little girls" is hard to maintain if the "little girl"--at least one of them--has made assaults that left serious, permanent consequences on her victims.  Adora insists on calling them "little girls" and acting as if they were precious little innocent things, but we've seen both from Natalie's violent history and from the behavior of the murdered girls' peers, like Amma, that they were far from innocent.

My god, if Adora thinks Camille is dangerous, and thinks Natalie, who committed potentially murderous assaults, is a sweet little girl, what in the *hell* must Camille have done?  Did Camille kill Marian?  Is that why it's dangerous for Amma to be around her?  Is that why Camille's bedroom is as far away from everyone else's as to be practically on another floor?

As for the other cheerleaders not seeing Camille's "cherry" skin-cutting, I think the cuts are up higher than the top of her thigh, if you know what I mean.  I think she might have cut her outer labia.

ETA;  I think you're exactly right that Adora planted that bike, or had it planted.  Were we ever given a reasonable explanation for why it was found at this time?  I know "one of the Mexicans" at the plant says he saw John Keene put it into the waste pond, but are we to believe that the Mexican guy came forward out of nowhere to report this?  And why did he wait?  I think Adora somehow knew where the bike was and had it placed there, then got one of her slaughterhouse employees to lie about what he'd seen.

And do we think Adora and the police chief have had an actual physical affair?  They're certainly thick as thieves.

Edited by Mothra · Reason: bike thoughts
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1 hour ago, Court said:

I was pretty convinced Adora was the killer until this episode. Now I've decided it's Amma and Adora must know and planted the bike. 

I agree that Jackie knows a hell of a lot more than she's letting on. Tell somebody. But I do enjoy her so show her more.

 I felt really disturbed and gross watching that party scene. Especially the way Amma was acting. 

Would she do that to her precious Amma, though? I can see her doing it to Camille, but not to the favoured one. 

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26 minutes ago, Mothra said:

As for the other cheerleaders not seeing Camille's "cherry" skin-cutting, I think the cuts are up higher than the top of her thigh, if you know what I mean.  I think she might have cut her outer labia.

giphy.gif

I'm not really sure how Becky could have seen it on the field then. Do you think Camille was gping commando? 

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22 minutes ago, bijoux said:

giphy.gif

I'm not really sure how Becky could have seen it on the field then. Do you think Camille was gping commando? 

Did Becky actually see the cut?  I thought she only saw blood running drown Camille's leg from her underpants area--leading everyone to assume it was her period.  I thought Becky found out later that it was from cutting?

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8 minutes ago, Mothra said:

Did Becky actually see the cut?  I thought she only saw blood running drown Camille's leg from her underpants area--leading everyone to assume it was her period.  I thought Becky found out later that it was from cutting?

Yes.  She tells Camille she actually saw the word "cherry" cut into her leg. 

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2 hours ago, wovenloaf said:

Yes.  She tells Camille she actually saw the word "cherry" cut into her leg. 

Ah-ha.  Thanks.  Labia, er, retracted.

ETA:  per Wikipedia, average hair growth is six inches per year.  I think we're looking at at least two years to get Camille from very short to cheerleader long.  I'm still not convinced that the hair thing is reliable, though, that Camille actually chopped off her hair.  I think maybe her "memories" of herself with such short hair might be part of her identification with the murder victims.

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3 hours ago, Mothra said:

Except that I never thought Adora was the killer, I agree with everything you say.  I think what Jackie knows is really crucial, and I'm thinking it relates to what's wrong with Camille, and I'm not just talking about the cutting.  I think something happened--not the rape, which I'm not sure Jackie would know about--that would explain a whole lot about why Adora insists that Camille is "dangerous."  Because Camille identifies so much with the murdered girls, I'm wondering if Camille made some serious physical assault on someone, like Natalie and the pencil in the eye (which is just ghastly, particularly in response to something so minor as a stolen pencil) and Natalie and presumably biting off John's girlfriend's ear.  Those are pretty serious, yet no one in town seems horrified enough, if you know what I mean.  The veneer of "little girls" is hard to maintain if the "little girl"--at least one of them--has made assaults that left serious, permanent consequences on her victims.  Adora insists on calling them "little girls" and acting as if they were precious little innocent things, but we've seen both from Natalie's violent history and from the behavior of the murdered girls' peers, like Amma, that they were far from innocent.

My god, if Adora thinks Camille is dangerous, and thinks Natalie, who committed potentially murderous assaults, is a sweet little girl, what in the *hell* must Camille have done?  Did Camille kill Marian?  Is that why it's dangerous for Amma to be around her?  Is that why Camille's bedroom is as far away from everyone else's as to be practically on another floor?

As for the other cheerleaders not seeing Camille's "cherry" skin-cutting, I think the cuts are up higher than the top of her thigh, if you know what I mean.  I think she might have cut her outer labia.

ETA;  I think you're exactly right that Adora planted that bike, or had it planted.  Were we ever given a reasonable explanation for why it was found at this time?  I know "one of the Mexicans" at the plant says he saw John Keene put it into the waste pond, but are we to believe that the Mexican guy came forward out of nowhere to report this?  And why did he wait?  I think Adora somehow knew where the bike was and had it placed there, then got one of her slaughterhouse employees to lie about what he'd seen.

And do we think Adora and the police chief have had an actual physical affair?  They're certainly thick as thieves.

Why would we believe anything Adora had to say, about anything? We've seen how she is. She's a gaslighting , manipulative narcissistic monster.

I thought she probably implied to Richard that Camille is so crazy, she probably had something to do with the death of the girl she was confined with in psychiatric care. And thats also maybe why he was checking her out. He's known Camille a week, and his job is literally to check out unusual seeming things, as detective.  I really dont see this as a breech on his relationship with Camille, because they hardly have one and he's just doing his job.  Cutting is one thing.  Cutting your entire body up with words by the time your 30 is another , and points to severe trauma that she's sustained. He's sensitive enough to catch on that she was upset when he was joking with her about what Adora said to him, on Calhoun Day and seemed concerned about Camille. This is also a guy who has strong feelings for abused animals, so I dont see him rejecting Camille. Although honestly? She needs some intensive therapy in order to deal with all of it, her whole life.  I thin Dick can intuit that there's something hinky with Adora.  Im sure as a cop, he probably can tell when someone's playing him. If not, hes a dolt.

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3 hours ago, Anela said:

Would she do that to her precious Amma, though? I can see her doing it to Camille, but not to the favoured one. 

What I mean was that she planted it on the farm to point to one of the migrant workers. So she's protecting her precious Amma. She knows what the sherrif thinks about the suspect already so it fits within that narrative. 

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20 minutes ago, Buttless said:

ETA;  I think you're exactly right that Adora planted that bike, or had it planted.  Were we ever given a reasonable explanation for why it was found at this time?  I know "one of the Mexicans" at the plant says he saw John Keene put it into the waste pond, but are we to believe that the Mexican guy came forward out of nowhere to report this?  And why did he wait?  I think Adora somehow knew where the bike was and had it placed there, then got one of her slaughterhouse employees to lie about what he'd seen.

He did?  I must have missed that because all I heard was Adora tell the cops that her workers found it, but nothing about John Keene.  Do you remember what scene it was that John Keene was mentioned in connection with the bike?

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2 hours ago, Buttless said:

 

Never mind.

Rewatching:  When Camille shows Richard "the end zone" where the rapes occurred, she says "that week's lucky cheerleader," not "cheerleader of the week," which leads me to believe it was a weekly ritual rape.

Richard says to Camille, when they're talking about who might have done the murders, that the pulling of the teeth was sort of like rape, a power play by someone who feels powerless.  Alan is the person I think who feels the most powerless in this show.

According to Adora, Camille was "six or seven" when she chopped off her hair.

Edited by Mothra

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2 hours ago, Mothra said:

I'm still not convinced that the hair thing is reliable, though, that Camille actually chopped off her hair.  I think maybe her "memories" of herself with such short hair might be part of her identification with the murder victims

I really think the hair was just to age up the actress and indicate time had passed. Also one murdered girl had longish hair. Natalie. I think you are giving the writers too much credit. 

Also, how has Camille's memory been faulty? We don't understand her flashes but she seems to know her own head. It's not like The Girl on the Train who is in blackout mode. Camille doesn't seem like an unreliable narrator. How they are telling her story is scattered. 

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14 minutes ago, Mothra said:

 

According to Adora, Camille was "six or seven" when she chopped off her hair.

How old was Anne Nash when she did it? In no way do I believe that story happened with Camille. Adora was simply parroting what she heard from Bob Nash and trying to gaslight Camille. Like, I believe Adora must sometimes tell the truth if only because of the law of averages, but I wouldn't believe her if she rold me the sky was blue. 

And talking of her, she's the perfect representation of Amma's fucked up view of interpersonal relationships. She has power over her 'friends', they all come to Calhoun's Day and sip alcohol on her porch (they do what she wants), but they gossip about here right there as well (they don't like her). Alan on the other hand, mostly sticks up for her, limpidly though it may be, and takes her sexual favors when she feels like granting them. 

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14 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I really think the hair was just to age up the actress and indicate time had passed. Also one murdered girl had longish hair. Natalie. I think you are giving the writers too much credit. 

Also, how has Camille's memory been faulty? We don't understand her flashes but she seems to know her own head. It's not like The Girl on the Train who is in blackout mode. Camille doesn't seem like an unreliable narrator. How they are telling her story is scattered. 

Camille has a lot of "visions" or hallucinations, flashbacks and what may or may not be memories.  I didn't mean to imply that Camille lied about anything, but her memories or whatever they are, as they are presented to us, are not always consistent with what we learn from other sources.  Maybe the other sources are unreliable, or maybe Camille, with her demonstrated mental illness and alcoholism, isn't sure in her own mind what really happened and when.  I also believe that Camille has blocked something important in her memory, and that if that becomes unblocked, a whole flood of truth is going to come out.

I don't think it's possible to give the writers too much credit!  This is a very artfully written and presented story, and I think anything that is shown us over and over, sometimes with differing explanations or versions, is worth noticing.  Now admittedly, I'm really enjoying digging into this show, and I'm sure I go too far, but my posts come with no guarantee of accuracy or truth about the show!  I'm probably the least reliable narrator, come to think of it.

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2 hours ago, izabella said:

He did?  I must have missed that because all I heard was Adora tell the cops that her workers found it, but nothing about John Keene.  Do you remember what scene it was that John Keene was mentioned in connection with the bike?

I would have to go back and watch the scene, but after the bike was found the sheriff told Dick something like, “Your job here is finished. One of the Mexican workers says he saw John Keene put the bike in the pond.”

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11 minutes ago, bijoux said:

How old was Anne Nash when she did it? In no way do I believe that story happened with Camille. Adora was simply parroting what she heard from Bob Nash and trying to gaslight Camille. Like, I believe Adora must sometimes tell the truth if only because of the law of averages, but I wouldn't believe her if she rold me the sky was blue. 

And talking of her, she's the perfect representation of Amma's fucked up view of interpersonal relationships. She has power over her 'friends', they all come to Calhoun's Day and sip alcohol on her porch (they do what she wants), but they gossip about here right there as well (they don't like her). Alan on the other hand, mostly sticks up for her, limpidly though it may be, and takes her sexual favors when she feels like granting them. 

I'm with you.  I'm sure Adora is indeed parroting what she heard about Anne Nash.  But how are we to understand Camille's own memories of chopped-off hair?  Do you think it's identifying with the murder victims?  That's really all I've got.  And fwiw, I think the Camille we've seen in her memories with short hair is much older than six or seven years old. 

Do we know how old Camille was when Marian died?  I ask because I just rewatched the scene where Camille finds Adora sobbing in Marian's bed, is called downstairs by Alan and Gayla for her 16th birthday cake.  Her hair is long, and she is in her cheerleader outfit.  I had the feeling that this happened fairly soon after Marian's death.

Re: Adora and Amma--Adora even lets the boys "do stuff" to keep them in line!  I think it's obvious that there's something going on between Adora and the police chief.  He says, "That's what I love about you, Adora, you don't pull your punches," and Adora, leaning back on the couch they're sitting on, with her arms stretched over her head--a sexually-inviting posture if I've ever seen one--says, "is that the only reason?"  and they both smirk.

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I'm not sure whether it was ever stated on the show how old Camille was exactly when Marian died (or Marian for that matter), but she read to me as pre-teen or very young teen. Roughly the same age Amma, an eight grader, is now. She actaully reads younger than Amma, but I think that's more to do with Amma's personality. So, 12 or 13 would be my guess. 

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2 hours ago, izabella said:

He did?  I must have missed that because all I heard was Adora tell the cops that her workers found it, but nothing about John Keene.  Do you remember what scene it was that John Keene was mentioned in connection with the bike?

Here’s the dialogue:

Sheriff: But you're gonna be goin' home tomorrow.

Dick: Oh, yeah? Why is that?

Sheriff: Mexican worker at the hog farm ID'ed Keene as the guy who dumped the bike in the lagoon.

https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=sharp-objects-2018&episode=s01e06

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