All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[Airmid]

25 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I didn't think Crowley was ever in Hell when we were seeing him. I thought his throne room was in that warehouse.

I always found it hard to tell as sometimes it seemed like his throne room [at least the one he was in] was in hell, while other times it seemed topside. Unfortunately, seeing how even back in S6 when he and Cas were in hell and we saw the souls as how they looked in life, it's even harder to tell directly where he was at the time. But he always struck me as one who would have a cell to use via magic to talk to the Winchester while with something like Abaddon he would have to use a blood bowl. I would also be willing to bet he would use cell phones as much as magic allowed due to it drawing less attention than a trail of dead humans. I doubt the writers/showrunners knew since they even seemed clueless later on that all demons could teleport in early seasons, not just Crowley. 

48 minutes ago, Katy M said:

They depowered everything and once you find out about something, after the initial difficulty of gaining access, or killing, it's easy peasy from then on.

I know people got upset that Michael just snapped an entrance for purgatory into existence for them but that at least made a modicum of sense. In lore, he has the keys to heaven and hell, so he should probably have the keys for the rest and he's so powerful he's able to keep heaven in line/universe balanced, and he is officially known as The Viceroy of Heaven - so having an all access pass wouldn't be surprising. Now, just what the handcuffs he was in at the time actually did to him [outside of looking like an annoyance and his/Adam's curiosity to see what the brothers wanted being the main driving factor as he doesn't seem anxious to get out of them] or why they wrote him so stupid later on are a whole other topic.

The rest of it though - even Cas being able to get Sam's body out is just head-scratching. Even more salt in the wound was Sam ignoring Dean for a year when such an easy access to purgatory existed via reaper [I don't have a problem with a doorway vs a portal per say, as Raphael/Crowley/Cas wanted to eat souls not go visit, just the execution of it - like that trial should have been two episodes of difficulty], just bouncing in and grabbing Bobby from hell no problem [man, poor Sam here, all those months wishing he would have died instead, drinking himself to death until he was manipulated by a demon when rescuing Dean looks comically easy at that point], both brothers having no issue being in hell again at all [trauma, what trauma], just all of that. They never got that making it easy to fit into a slot in one episode took away mystery.

20 minutes ago, MAK said:

That's really the correct answer to all questions.

It's so depressing, especially in late seasons.

20 minutes ago, MAK said:

Literally no other writer cared.

I think both Edlund and Gamble actually did care quite a bit. While people may not always like what they came up with or where their focus was, I definitely think they were invested in the show and tried to do a lot, including Gamble, despite her Sam focus, actually giving Dean things to work with [his lesson with Death that he learned from under her tenure and his amazing Eve kill under her]. Edlund gave us episodes like the superb The Man Who Would Be King [and directed] and IMHO that kind of episode could not have been pulled off if the writer didn't pay attention to what was going on. I also think Yockey cared but got trampled by Dabb's "vision", at the very least he seemed to put in real effort though YMMV on that. 

Speaking of Home, I rewatched that a little bit ago and I had completely forgotten that John was at the end crying and feeling unable to see his sons until he got things sorted. It's really sad, and raises questions as to where he was in Faith - that maybe he didn't abandon them but he couldn't come to terms with the idea of Dean dying. Given the backstory that they fleshed out for Mary later and given the amount of hunters he knew or knew of in the world, I can't imagine that he didn't come across the Campbells and who Mary really was. Along with eventually doing the math between the death of her parents and her death [especially given that she almost lost him and probably was even more anxious/weird] and worrying that she made a deal. Maybe even something Azazel tortured him with during his possession. All of that makes him a much more sympathetic character for me during the first couple of seasons - too bad they totally threw him under a bus later on.

[gonzosgirrl]

I will never understand why there was (apparently) no writers' room, not even a show bible, to keep canon in line. Hell, most fans would have done it for free. And it wouldn't matter if they were Sam fans or Dean fans, etc - just keeping track of the facts they laid down would have made a HUGE difference to the quality of the show, if not the continuity of the characters.

[gonzosgirrl]

54 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Speaking of Home, I rewatched that a little bit ago and I had completely forgotten that John was at the end crying and feeling unable to see his sons until he got things sorted. It's really sad, and raises questions as to where he was in Faith - that maybe he didn't abandon them but he couldn't come to terms with the idea of Dean dying.

I literally just read a fanfic where it was John who gave the info about the faith healer to Joshua to pass on to Sam, which is why he called Sam back. That would have made me more sympathetic to John if he didn't turn out to be such a tool when he did finally come back into their lives. My mind was made up about him when he was immediately such a dick to Dean about taking care of the Impala. Trading his life for Dean's was the least he owed him.

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I literally just read a fanfic where it was John who gave the info about the faith healer to Joshua to pass on to Sam, which is why he called Sam back. That would have made me more sympathetic to John if he didn't turn out to be such a tool when he did finally come back into their lives. My mind was made up about him when he was immediately such a dick to Dean about taking care of the Impala. Trading his life for Dean's was the least he owed him.

Yeah I mean IMO nothing about John really shocked me.  I know people think he was thrown under the bus but I think most of it was set up in Season 1, it was just a matter of adding details.  There were already hints that he'd possibly hit Dean(Dean's reaction to Sam's a little more tequila a little less hunting in...I think Nightmare), we were already seeing him leaving a 9 year old and a 5 year old alone in a motel for 3 days, no sanctioned help except Pastor Jim who was hundreds of miles away(and this was before cell phones so they really had NO way to contact John) and it was clearly already a pretty regular thing.  We saw him blame it on Dean.  And it was only reasonable that the older they got the more often that would happen, the more they'd be left alone, etc.  We already heard about his drinking in Season 1.

And then when they were all together in those final episodes?  Is it really all that shocking that John would have ignored Sam's phone call in Faith when Dean was laying 2 feet from him, in the back seat of the car bleeding to death, after a demon in JOHN's body, had tortured him and he didn't give a DAMN.  Not to mention Dean knew John was a demon because the demon was NICER! He knew John was have abused him, not praised him, for what he did.

And as you mentioned the thing with the Impala that is such a red flag.  That is very typical of abusive parent child relationships, "I gave you this, you got this from me, anything good you got is from me and you can't take care of it/do it properly without me around".  Basically I gave you this good thing and if you don't do as I say I can take it away.  It's all about ego and control.  "I would have given it to you if I'd known you'd ruin" - it's mine, you only have it because of me, and you can't take care of it as well I can.  And notice this is all right after his fight with Sam, to make himself feel better and more in control he takes it out on Dean, whom he has brow beaten, trained, brainwashed, what have you, into not disobeying or questioning him lest he be responsible for his family's death.

How often did he do that in other situations, not just fights with Sam?  A bad hunt, take it out on Dean so he can feel in control again.  Have a fight with some fellow hunter sick of John's crap?  Take it out on Dean.

So to me most of what we learned later didn't shock me, because the groundwork was set in Season 1.  It's just uglier hearing the actual details.

[Airmid]

18 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Not to mention Dean knew John was a demon because the demon was NICER! He knew John was have abused him, not praised him, for what he did.

Dean's a rather unreliable narrator, TBH. People praise him and he still views himself as less than crap. Granted, he got very little and those he loves tend to not give him much but he very much has viewed himself a certain way and probably for a variety of reasons including the way he was raised which was pretty much free-ranged. The more interesting thing to me about Dean is his loyalty and devotion given what his life was like. 

26 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Is it really all that shocking that John would have ignored Sam's phone call in Faith when Dean was laying 2 feet from him, in the back seat of the car bleeding to death, after a demon in JOHN's body, had tortured him and he didn't give a DAMN. 

He begged Sam to shoot him, thought Sam would actually shot him through the heart thus killing the thing that started him down this path and it is arguable he may have had a death wish and probably always knew it would end bloody. I'm not exactly sure what people would have liked John to do here, given that he was shot, one son unconscious, the other he was certain willing to kill him, but I can see where his mind is stuck.  This is the exact scenario he wanted to avoid when Sam and Dean insisted on coming with him. They were so close to ending it [and since the producers have said that John knew most of what was going on in the first five seasons from their POV], it also would have guaranteed much more readily Sam's safety.

I find it all the more creepy and troubling that he truly believed that Sam was far enough removed from the situation that he would shoot his own father dead. I'd say you have a point if Dean was awake and crying for him and he just ignored him but we have a time jump here and later on, John does exhibit true emotion towards Dean even if it is in a messed up way in the S2 opener.

 

34 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

It's all about ego and control.  "I would have given it to you if I'd known you'd ruin" - it's mine, you only have it because of me, and you can't take care of it as well I can. 

I have known people, including having family members, that do this kind of stuff. I wouldn't call it abusive in the way you're suggesting. In my experience, it stems from focusing on the negative, looking for flaws, glass half empty type of crowd. There are control issues yes, but they don't seem to realize that it can be damaging - to them they are stating fact because they want you to fix the situation or they will. Being on the receiving end of this - yes, it can be upsetting but it's an ingrained pattern and if John spiraled into this after Mary died it's easy to see how Dean got certain world views. Plus, their lives had little happiness and little stability adding to the mix.  Personally, I don't think that John meant to be abusive in this way - I think he shares that overly-focused trait with Sam and desire for revenge that drove both of them to ruin.

 

20 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

whom he has brow beaten, trained, brainwashed, what have you, into not disobeying or questioning him lest he be responsible for his family's death.

We know for a fact that Dean disobeyed, majorly at times, throughout his childhood and young adult life. The big thing he seemed to take away from Something Wicked This Way Comes was that Sam was his responsibility and he needed to follow the rules to keep Sam safe. That shouldn't ever have been his burden, but it ended up being that. But no, Dean wasn't some little rigid solider that always did what John said - though that was certainly Sam's notion and is take at the time.

Simply, I believe John had a lot of rationalizations for his behavior. Something spooked him badly in the months following Mary's death that he picked up and just ran. We don't know what that was but he became a hunter really early and in a very volatile and vulnerable state. It shows a lot of paranoia and suspicion - he didn't want to be in one place in case whatever it was found him and worse, his kids. Leaving them with hunters or babysitters or just on their own? It became better in his mind because they were still near enough to him but out of the way. When Sam was attacked by the Striga in their childhood, John was caught off guard and removed them from the area. Here's the actual conversation when John's leaving when Dean was nine:

JOHN: All right. You know the drill, Dean. Anybody calls, you don't pick up. If it's me, I'll ring once, then call back. You got that?
YOUNG DEAN: Mm-hmm. Only answer the phone unless it rings once first.
JOHN: Come on, dude, look alive. This stuff is important.
YOUNG DEAN: I know, it's just...we've gone over it like a million times and you know I'm not stupid.
JOHN: I know you're not, but it only takes one mistake, you got that?
[JOHN continues gathering his things.]
JOHN: All right, if I'm not back Sunday night...?
YOUNG DEAN: Call Pastor Jim.
JOHN: Lock the doors, the windows, close the shades. Most important....
YOUNG DEAN: Watch out for Sammy.
[They both look to SAMMY, sprawled on the couch watching cartoons on TV.]
YOUNG DEAN: I know.
JOHN: All right. If something tries to bust in?
YOUNG DEAN: Shoot first, ask questions later.
JOHN: (taking his shoulder) That's my man.

Dean's rather snarky at young age, not exactly the brainwashed/terrified/completely obedient little trooper. Later on, young Sam's the one that comes off as a spoiled brat, throwing a fit, demanding food that Dean's been saving for himself. No wonder Dean sneaks off - he's nine and being pushed into the role of a parent of a kid that doesn't know anything and he can't talk to about any of this. While John does yell at Dean later when he saves Sam, it comes off as freaked. He also immediately pulls them and takes them to Pastor Jim - so it wasn't like he wanted them for bait [or if he even toyed with the idea immediately dropped it when confronted with the reality]. Dean is the one who blames himself totally for what happened, even with Sam trying to get through to him that Dean was just a kid.

In S1, when Sam meets Max and sees what happened to him after his mother died the same way [his father beat him a lot] Sam actually expresses relief that John did what he did - killed things that hurt others like how they were hurt. Later on, in Dead Man's Blood he tells Sam:

John:  After your mother passed, all I saw was evil. Everywhere. And all I cared about was, was keepin' you boys alive. I wanted you prepared. Ready. So somewhere along the line I uh, I stopped being your father, and I, I became your, your drill-sergeant. So when you said that you wanted to go away to school, all I could think about, my only thought was, that you were gonna be alone. Vulnerable. Sammy it just, it never occurred to me what you wanted. I just couldn't accept the fact that you and me... we're just different.

Again - don't think John ever really got the eye opener he needed until seeing his adult sons and when they first met up in S1, everybody's estranged. Not surprising that John makes remarks about the car, or Sam picking fights, or Dean trying to keep the peace because his family is all the same place finally again after years. They're all tense, John's keeping secrets, and the boys are in the dark.

John is not a responsible nor a good parent. He inadvertently damaged his children to pursue his own revenge quest under the guise of saving other people as his only method of coping at that time [and pushed by extreme fear and paranoia]. The John at the start of the series is a deeply flawed, immensely troubled man who seems ready to die and is trying to keep his kids together so they will be safe and away from what he is going to go do. When he caves to let them help him, it's a terrible mistake that costs a lot. There's enough wiggle room here [and the shades of grey cast on things by both Dean and Sam's memories] to feel something towards the man. John is spectacularly messed up.

And good grief - everybody drinks in this show. And, TBH, if I was John and spent years finding mangled bodies, dead children, people and friends dying in my arms, I'd probably start up again. Not to mention watching my spouse burn alive on a ceiling and then later finding out she lied about everything on top of being abandoned by my own father and having served in combat during a war. Does he have happy memories of his own?

[Pondlass1]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I will never understand why there was (apparently) no writers' room, not even a show bible, to keep canon in line. Hell, most fans would have done it for free. And it wouldn't matter if they were Sam fans or Dean fans, etc - just keeping track of the facts they laid down would have made a HUGE difference to the quality of the show, if not the continuity of the characters.

Anyone here remember the old IMDb message board for Supernatural? I think it disbanded 2016. The running joke was What writer’s room? Not even a whiteboard on a wall at the LA office. No one kept track of established canon. No networking, no brainstorming. 

I remember a fan asking Jensen at a convention if hesitating before going down those steps to hell was an acting or director choice and, of course, it was  all Jensen. 

Personally I wished they’d never gotten into the big celestial stuff. They never had the budget or time. 

 

[Airmid]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

There were already hints that he'd possibly hit Dean(Dean's reaction to Sam's a little more tequila a little less hunting in...I think Nightmare),

It took me a while to find this but it is from Nightmare. Sam's talking about their childhood vs. Max's childhood - 

SAM: Well I'll tell you one thing. We're lucky we had Dad.

DEAN: (Looking astounded...and pleased) Well I never thought I'd hear you say that.

SAM: Well, it coulda gone a whole other way after Mom. A little more tequila and a little less demon hunting and we woulda had Max's childhood. All things considered, we turned out ok. Thanks to him.

DEAN: (Turning back to look at Max's house) All things considered.

I've seen a lot of pointing to this scene as evidence of John physically abusing Dean due to Dean's response and how he looks at the house as Max was severely abused physically. I would honestly argue that he tends to remember things differently than Sam and may actually want to protest that John was not the driving force of why they turned out okay - especially for Sam. I would think it would be rather hurtful and quietly upsetting to Dean to have Sam stand there and praise John for a job Dean himself did while also keeping John taped together. And it's unfortunately rather in character for Sam to push praise onto other people when it should have gone to Dean while dumping all the negative stuff on Dean's head.

Really wished Dean had taken the opportunity to smack Sam upside the head and say, "Really? All thanks to dad?"

30 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Personally I wished they’d never gotten into the big celestial stuff. They never had the budget or time. 

Or focus to see it through, or attention span, or skill to write large universe encompassing stories...

I'd be less bitter if I it was something like fanfic - you know stuff people create in their spare time that they do the best the can with it and sometimes fail. Instead they are writers paid to sit and think and write - like it's their only job and they can't even be bothered to keep simple lore straight. I'd be embarrassed if I treated my job the same way, especially if it was so publicly displayed. 

[Myrelle]

6 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

So to me most of what we learned later didn't shock me, because the groundwork was set in Season 1.  It's just uglier hearing the actual details.

Yeah, I feel the same.

And I further think that Kripke never really meant for John to be seen as anything more than a mostly absent parental figure who had also become overly obsessed with finding and killing the thing that had killed his wife.

That he came to find out that it was a threat to his children also was beside the point that he was still written as a predominantly absent parental figure for most of his children's lives.

Something Wicked, Faith, Dead Man's Blood and Devil's Trap and IMTOD all made it clear to me that he was a neglectful parent, at the very least.

And even in this last season, Sam said that Dean "protected" him from dad which implies more than just and simply neglectful AFAIC. 

I think that the casting of JDM as John was the character's saving grace, tbh, because for me, the actual writing never really changed except in episode 300 when they clearly softened the writing of the character after JDM had publicly expressed his dislike of what they'd written previously after John had died and the character's flaws were simply furthered a bit more, along with the story.

I think JDM is a very good actor, but he never won me over as far as John was concerned.

And for me the turning point episode for that was Something Wicked when the pattern of neglect/abuse by the character was first genuinely introduced, again, IMO and AFAIC. 

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Myrelle

[tessathereaper]

5 hours ago, Airmid said:

Dean's a rather unreliable narrator, TBH. People praise him and he still views himself as less than crap. Granted, he got very little and those he loves tend to not give him much but he very much has viewed himself a certain way and probably for a variety of reasons including the way he was raised which was pretty much free-ranged. The more interesting thing to me about Dean is his loyalty and devotion given what his life was like. 

He begged Sam to shoot him, thought Sam would actually shot him through the heart thus killing the thing that started him down this path and it is arguable he may have had a death wish and probably always knew it would end bloody. I'm not exactly sure what people would have liked John to do here, given that he was shot, one son unconscious, the other he was certain willing to kill him, but I can see where his mind is stuck.  This is the exact scenario he wanted to avoid when Sam and Dean insisted on coming with him. They were so close to ending it [and since the producers have said that John knew most of what was going on in the first five seasons from their POV], it also would have guaranteed much more readily Sam's safety.

I find it all the more creepy and troubling that he truly believed that Sam was far enough removed from the situation that he would shoot his own father dead. I'd say you have a point if Dean was awake and crying for him and he just ignored him but we have a time jump here and later on, John does exhibit true emotion towards Dean even if it is in a messed up way in the S2 opener.

 

I have known people, including having family members, that do this kind of stuff. I wouldn't call it abusive in the way you're suggesting. In my experience, it stems from focusing on the negative, looking for flaws, glass half empty type of crowd. There are control issues yes, but they don't seem to realize that it can be damaging - to them they are stating fact because they want you to fix the situation or they will. Being on the receiving end of this - yes, it can be upsetting but it's an ingrained pattern and if John spiraled into this after Mary died it's easy to see how Dean got certain world views. Plus, their lives had little happiness and little stability adding to the mix.  Personally, I don't think that John meant to be abusive in this way - I think he shares that overly-focused trait with Sam and desire for revenge that drove both of them to ruin.

 

We know for a fact that Dean disobeyed, majorly at times, throughout his childhood and young adult life. The big thing he seemed to take away from Something Wicked This Way Comes was that Sam was his responsibility and he needed to follow the rules to keep Sam safe. That shouldn't ever have been his burden, but it ended up being that. But no, Dean wasn't some little rigid solider that always did what John said - though that was certainly Sam's notion and is take at the time.

Simply, I believe John had a lot of rationalizations for his behavior. Something spooked him badly in the months following Mary's death that he picked up and just ran. We don't know what that was but he became a hunter really early and in a very volatile and vulnerable state. It shows a lot of paranoia and suspicion - he didn't want to be in one place in case whatever it was found him and worse, his kids. Leaving them with hunters or babysitters or just on their own? It became better in his mind because they were still near enough to him but out of the way. When Sam was attacked by the Striga in their childhood, John was caught off guard and removed them from the area. Here's the actual conversation when John's leaving when Dean was nine:

JOHN: All right. You know the drill, Dean. Anybody calls, you don't pick up. If it's me, I'll ring once, then call back. You got that?
YOUNG DEAN: Mm-hmm. Only answer the phone unless it rings once first.
JOHN: Come on, dude, look alive. This stuff is important.
YOUNG DEAN: I know, it's just...we've gone over it like a million times and you know I'm not stupid.
JOHN: I know you're not, but it only takes one mistake, you got that?
[JOHN continues gathering his things.]
JOHN: All right, if I'm not back Sunday night...?
YOUNG DEAN: Call Pastor Jim.
JOHN: Lock the doors, the windows, close the shades. Most important....
YOUNG DEAN: Watch out for Sammy.
[They both look to SAMMY, sprawled on the couch watching cartoons on TV.]
YOUNG DEAN: I know.
JOHN: All right. If something tries to bust in?
YOUNG DEAN: Shoot first, ask questions later.
JOHN: (taking his shoulder) That's my man.

Dean's rather snarky at young age, not exactly the brainwashed/terrified/completely obedient little trooper. Later on, young Sam's the one that comes off as a spoiled brat, throwing a fit, demanding food that Dean's been saving for himself. No wonder Dean sneaks off - he's nine and being pushed into the role of a parent of a kid that doesn't know anything and he can't talk to about any of this. While John does yell at Dean later when he saves Sam, it comes off as freaked. He also immediately pulls them and takes them to Pastor Jim - so it wasn't like he wanted them for bait [or if he even toyed with the idea immediately dropped it when confronted with the reality]. Dean is the one who blames himself totally for what happened, even with Sam trying to get through to him that Dean was just a kid.

In S1, when Sam meets Max and sees what happened to him after his mother died the same way [his father beat him a lot] Sam actually expresses relief that John did what he did - killed things that hurt others like how they were hurt. Later on, in Dead Man's Blood he tells Sam:

John:  After your mother passed, all I saw was evil. Everywhere. And all I cared about was, was keepin' you boys alive. I wanted you prepared. Ready. So somewhere along the line I uh, I stopped being your father, and I, I became your, your drill-sergeant. So when you said that you wanted to go away to school, all I could think about, my only thought was, that you were gonna be alone. Vulnerable. Sammy it just, it never occurred to me what you wanted. I just couldn't accept the fact that you and me... we're just different.

Again - don't think John ever really got the eye opener he needed until seeing his adult sons and when they first met up in S1, everybody's estranged. Not surprising that John makes remarks about the car, or Sam picking fights, or Dean trying to keep the peace because his family is all the same place finally again after years. They're all tense, John's keeping secrets, and the boys are in the dark.

John is not a responsible nor a good parent. He inadvertently damaged his children to pursue his own revenge quest under the guise of saving other people as his only method of coping at that time [and pushed by extreme fear and paranoia]. The John at the start of the series is a deeply flawed, immensely troubled man who seems ready to die and is trying to keep his kids together so they will be safe and away from what he is going to go do. When he caves to let them help him, it's a terrible mistake that costs a lot. There's enough wiggle room here [and the shades of grey cast on things by both Dean and Sam's memories] to feel something towards the man. John is spectacularly messed up.

And good grief - everybody drinks in this show. And, TBH, if I was John and spent years finding mangled bodies, dead children, people and friends dying in my arms, I'd probably start up again. Not to mention watching my spouse burn alive on a ceiling and then later finding out she lied about everything on top of being abandoned by my own father and having served in combat during a war. Does he have happy memories of his own?

Are you saying Dean imagined John's abuse?  John "not meaning" to be abusive doesn't make it any less abuse.  I'm pretty sure most abusive parents don't go into it thinking they are abusive.  They aren't sitting down and logically thinking "well I will blame my child and I'll build myself up so that way I can feel more in control".   In fact many of them are thinking they mean well, they are toughening the kid up, getting em ready for the real world, yada yada yada.  Plenty of excuses and rationalizations and I'm quite John had plenty of those.

We were actually shown what happened and it was what Dean said.  John expression was as angry(along with upset for Sam) as Dean said.   If anything what we saw throughout the first couple season was that Dean was a LOT easier on John than John, by and large, deserved  He mostly tried to focus on the rare moments when something good happened or make excuses for his father's behavior or you know, blame himself because he deserved it(see Shtriga episode.  9 year old Dean shouldn't have been left alone with a 5 year old, given a gun and told shoot first ask questions later--and we know now Dean had been well trained with a gun since he was at least 6 per No Exit in Season 2--for 3 days alone in a motel room in the first place, it was in no way HIS responsibility and he actually did a great job managing to make it for 3 whole days cooped up in a motel room with a 5 year old, being responsible for his well being and all he did was walk across the parking lot to play a video game for a little while, he was THERE, John is the one who wasn't.  John was at fault for all of it.  They were both John's responsibility.  John failed and allowed Dean to take the blame for it.

Dean didn't make up what he went through.  Dean protected Sam from worst of it(and Sam's life as a child wasn't exactly a bed of roses either after all) so if anything Dean's memories are going to include things that Sam's don't but did actually happen.  Also I'm pretty sure that John "ran" almost right away after Mary's death, he saw his wife burn on the ceiling, pretty sure he didn't need anything else to spook him, he went to Missouri(who lived in Lawrence) not long afterwards, and from they were gone, looking for whatever killed Mary.

Being abused doesn't mean not having a personality. I mean after all it's those little moments of personality the abuser usually exploits as an excuse for more obvious abuse("you made me do it, it's for your own good" whatever).   Dean still being a little bit of a 9 year old at 9 years old doesn't mean he wasn't still being abused and parentified(and that is abuse, esp to the extent he was).  The point of the episode actually is the shrtiga incident was presented as one of the ways Dean was "convinced", one of the final slats on the ladder that took away any sort of "normal" he might have still had in his childhood, he had to listen to John, be a "good little soldier", because otherwise his brother, his family could die and it would be his fault.

John not systematically planning it that way doesn't mean he wasn't perfectly happy to use it to his advantage afterwards which he clearly did and THAT is abuse.  The episode was not presented at Dean being unreliable but as Dean being right about why John sent them on the hunt and right about the way John reacted when he was a child. 

Dean was the child and John USED him.  John used him as a replacement parent, a replacement partner, put adult responsibilities on a child's shoulders from a very young age so HE could get revenge(and whatever other excuses he gave himself), regularly neglected both of them by leaving them alone for increasingly long periods of time with Dean having the responsibility to protect and take care of them.  

There was nothing about Dean in the season 1 finale and saying John would have been angry for what he'd done that was presented as some sort of point of view thing.  It was presented as fact and afterwards what we were presented about John FIT with what Dean said.  John's behavior as DEAN is bleeding in in the backseat pretty much supports it. He doesn't give a damn about what Dean is doing, he's pissed off they didn't get the YED. He's not even really thinking about Dean. If Dean was any sort of priority to him, he'd have been in the backseat with him. Even just to be near in case Dean needed something or just to hold his hand, something, for his severely injured son. You normally would have to almost drag parents away from seriously injured children, even adult ones.  Instead he's sitting in the front seat, arguing with Sam about not killing him and saying NOTHING is more important than killing the YED.  I'm pretty sure we're supposed to be horrified by John's behavior and see how it matches up with what Dean said about John would have been angry with him for wasting a bullet.   

It's not like the "time jump" was a week, it was long enough to get Dean into the car and start driving.  

Oh he showed some real emotion towards Dean in In My Time of Dying. When Dean was actually DYING?  Even abusive parents can love their kids or do something to protect them, doesn't make them less abusive.

Also in Dead Man's Blood, their dynamic is established, we were getting a little microcosm of how it was - so John criticizing Dean for the car in the way he did wasn't just "oh well every parent does that once in a while" it was presented in a specific context which is used by abusive parents.  They aren't saying "well it's a one time thing", it's not usually like this,  it's presented as the norm, we getting insight into their dynamic.  When Dean stands up to John, THAT is presented as a unusual.

And again we see more of this in In My Time of Dying - when Dean is literally invisible, it's a call back to that previous episode and how Dean is "invisible" during John and Sam's fight, invisible in the sense that his concerns and feelings aren't even really part of the equation, he's just the peacemaker they depend on hold everything together without even really realizing that is what is happening.  It's kind of used as a metaphor.  He's still doing it, in his spirit form, when he breaks the glass to break up their argument.  It also fits in with YED "Even when he fights with Sam it's more than he shows he cares about you".  Dean feels that way because he was raised that way, by an emotionally abusive parent, not because it's all in his head and he's exaggerating some minor infractions.     

Actually those 4 episodes, Dead Man's Blood, Salvation, Devil's Trap and In My Time of Dying, are repeating the themes, there are things in all of them which tie into other things, some of them are literal, some of them are metaphorical.

Overall given the whole of what we are shown over the course of the show,  is that Dean was actually easier on his father than his father deserved, because it's not uncommon for a person raised in that situation to defend the parent they were forced into the parentified relationship with and we see him sort of start working through that throughout the show.  Now I realize we were specifically talking about Season 1 in my original post and how what we found out about John's abuse  later was set up in Season 1 and thus I didn't find it surprising, but it doesn't change the fact that what was presented throughout the course of the show is John as emotionally abusive parent and heavily implied to have been physically abusive at times to Dean.

IMO there isn't really an argument in this regard.  John was abusive. The show was clear on that and probably only wasn't clearer with regards to the physical abuse part(because people still tend to think in terms of THAT being the unforgivable form from which there is no return even though emotional abuse causes scars every bit as deep)) because they wanted to leave at least a little room to maybe get a guest spot by JDM at some point and knew he'd never come back if that was in there.

John left his kids alone for increasingly long periods of time, at least a couple of weeks by the time Dean was 12(Christmas episode)  with little to no contact, which is abuse in and of itself.  In the season 4 Heaven episode where we found Sam ran away and Dean's reaction to his own memory of how John reacted was pretty much terror and very clearly suggestive of physical abuse.  But yes I suppose Dean was exaggerating THAT too and John wasn't really all that angry or violent about it.  

Yeah I'm not sympathetic to John and his child abuse. Absolutely did not need to do that or treat his children that way.  He was more concerned about getting revenge then anything else.  He could be horrified by what happened to his wife without also abusing the children they had together.  There is no "mean well" in most of what he did it was pure selfishness, it was not caring about his kids as much as he cared about his revenge.  It was not John doing his best, it was John doing pretty much the bare minimum to keep his kids alive, while also putting them in great danger on a regular basis.  John could have found out about the supernatural, devoted himself to learning about it, while still giving his children a fairly stable life if he'd put THEIR safety ahead of his need for revenge.

John occasionally doing a "grand gesture" doesn't make him any less of an abusive parent.  John being will to die to get rid of the YED doesn't change it.  John selling his soul for Dean's life doesn't change it. (I mean hey I'm glad he did but in some ways it was just a continuation, he dropped all that responsibility, HIS responsibility, with almost NO information beyond "save Sam or kill him" on Dean and then promptly died, honestly I wouldn't put it past him to have been glad it wasn't his relieved it wasn't his responsibility anymore while not really considering what it put on Dean when his whole life he'd pounded into Dean's head that he MUST protect Sam at all costs, even if he felt in some way this would save Sam in the end, he's STILL using Dean as his instrument and not thinking about Dean as an individual, just what he can do for him and Sam).  

22 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And for me the turning point episode for that was Something Wicked when the pattern of neglect/abuse by the character was first genuinely introduced, again, IMO and AFAIC. 

Yes, this was when it first really outright presented and IMO I think that was meant to be, especially given what we saw when we got some real actual John content in the last 3 eps of the season.  

Edited January 5, 2021 by tessathereaper

[MAK]

I agree with almost all of the above by @tessathereaper and @Myrelle. The only part I would argue about is the "absent" part. 

Yes, John left them alone, a lot, few times for as much as weeks. But that can't have been the norm. And I have a canonical reason for this. They "were raised like warriors" means someone was there to train them. You can argue that Dean ended up training Sam, but who trained Dean? And when, if John was consistently absent? I also can't imagine control freak John leaving all of Sam's training to an incompletely trained Dean. How was he training Dean and making Dean do workouts if Dean was confined to the motel room as babysitter for "increasingly long periods of time"?

Of course John was abusive. He knew his kids. He knew how to manipulate Dean. He may not have engineered what happened in "Something Wicked" but, you can bet he used it. Did he ever comfort Dean for being traumatized by watching the monster almost killing his brother? Especially since Dean froze. John went and grabbed Sam, who was sleeping, didn't know what had happened. After making sure Sam was awake and ok, shouldn't John had included Dean in that hug? Instead he looks at Dean, accusing Dean of causing the whole scenario.

[tessathereaper]

46 minutes ago, MAK said:

I agree with almost all of the above by @tessathereaper and @Myrelle. The only part I would argue about is the "absent" part. 

Yes, John left them alone, a lot, few times for as much as weeks. But that can't have been the norm. And I have a canonical reason for this. They "were raised like warriors" means someone was there to train them. You can argue that Dean ended up training Sam, but who trained Dean? And when, if John was consistently absent? I also can't imagine control freak John leaving all of Sam's training to an incompletely trained Dean. How was he training Dean and making Dean do workouts if Dean was confined to the motel room as babysitter for "increasingly long periods of time"?

Of course John was abusive. He knew his kids. He knew how to manipulate Dean. He may not have engineered what happened in "Something Wicked" but, you can bet he used it. Did he ever comfort Dean for being traumatized by watching the monster almost killing his brother? Especially since Dean froze. John went and grabbed Sam, who was sleeping, didn't know what had happened. After making sure Sam was awake and ok, shouldn't John had included Dean in that hug? Instead he looks at Dean, accusing Dean of causing the whole scenario.

And the thing is Dean was a child too, DEAN was a potential victim of the striga too.  He didn't even seem to think of Dean as a child, or that Dean was in danger, just that he'd "failed" at doing something John wasn't even TRYING to do.

Oh I think you are right he was there more often then he wasn't but I think he was probably absent more often as the years went by, you know less when they were younger, more when they were older, but I think they were probably left on a fairly regular basis.  There are 52 weeks in a year, let's say he's gone for 20 weeks in a particular year, there are still 32 weeks for him to train them and generally berate them. That's plenty of time.

And 20 weeks out of a year is STILL alot of weeks to leave.  Or heck even 12 weeks is a lot.  He shouldn't be leaving them alone for extended periods of time.  We also know that occasionally he did leave them with other people, he left them with Bobby sometimes, seems like he left them with Pastor Jim sometimes.  Pastor Jim may well have trained them too and not given him push back like Bobby ended up doing that time when he let Dean play catch instead of shooting practice. 

Plus when he was with them, he was STILL hunting.  So it was him "working" all sorts of irregular hours and generally probably not around when they wanted him or needed, him training them when he wasn't working, and then some "fairly non drama filled" times when he was around.  And then there were significant periods of time when he was NOT around and Dean was left responsible.  And I imagine there were some times, particularly when they were younger, where he would leave them with a "friend" like Bobby or Pastor Jim(or there was that woman who was their babysitter in that one episode).

I mean we know of a number of times, throughout various ages of their lives they were alone - the Shtriga episode, the Christmas episode, whatever the time was when Dean got arrested for stealing peanut butter and bread, the Afterschool Special, Dean was legally an adult by then but it had clearly been normal for John to be leaving for a long time even prior to that. I can't remember if John was home or not during the "Weechesters" episode this season, the season is still too traumatic for details. 🙂 There may have been others times over the seasons where it was mentioned, even if the episode wasn't about it.  But they were all presented as being pretty much "normal" for them to be left by John so while IMO John would have been there certainly more often then he was gone, he still gone a lot.

[AwesomO4000]

10 hours ago, Airmid said:

I would honestly argue that he tends to remember things differently than Sam and may actually want to protest that John was not the driving force of why they turned out okay - especially for Sam. I would think it would be rather hurtful and quietly upsetting to Dean to have Sam stand there and praise John for a job Dean himself did while also keeping John taped together. And it's unfortunately rather in character for Sam to push praise onto other people when it should have gone to Dean while dumping all the negative stuff on Dean's head.

Sam can't win in this scenario. Dean had been wanting Sam to praise John as a "good" parent for a long time. He usually complained when Sam criticized him. Even after learning himself that maybe John wasn't that great a father, he still objected or called Sam out if Sam said anything negative about John and told Sam he didn't have a right to say anything good about John after his death because of Sam's previous criticism ("Everybody Loves a Clown"), so Sam pretty much loses no matter what he does here.

As for Sam praising Dean for raising and taking care of him, Sam does that many, many times throughout the series, so I don't agree with your interpretation that it's in character for Sam to give others praise that Dean should have had. And except when he's angry at Dean, I don't remember Sam being all that negative in dumping blame on Dean either. I'm not sure what "negative stuff" you are referring to here. Sam generally puts the blame right where it belongs - on John. And often most criticism Sam does have for Dean relates to what he saw as John not treating Dean right, and Dean accepting it. But even that Sam later apologizes for when he understands why Dean did it ("Something Wicked").

Sam outright accuses John on Dean's behalf in "In My Time of Dying," potentially incurring John's wrath. Even in the episode above, not long after the dialogue you site, Sam acknowledges that John isn't exactly the best or reliable father.

From Supernatural Wiki:

Quote

Sam: Yeah, maybe. Aren't you worried, man? Aren't you worried I could turn into Max or something?
Dean: Nope. No way. You know why?
Sam: No. Why?
Dean: Cause you got one advantage Max didn't have.
Sam: Dad? Because Dad's not here, Dean.
Dean: No. Me. (smirking) As long as I'm around, nothing bad is gonna happen to you.
Sam does puppy dog look and a tiny smile.

So Sam's observation that things could have been worse, in my opinion, isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of John. It's more of a realization on Sam's part that hey maybe not all "normal" is as good as Sam imagined it was. Sometimes it's just as crappy or even worse.

And just because Sam doesn't praise Dean here doesn't mean he didn't appreciate what Dean did for him when they were growing up. There are many other times Sam acknowledges it in the series.

[Aeryn13]

I didn`t quite know where to put this but I marvel at someone doing all that counting work: 

Supernatural - Screen Time Counter

The brothers are a given but the recurring characters wildly moving up and down the list over the course of the vid was fun. 

And let me say, this was 17h12m too much for me. (not the video, haha)  

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I didn`t quite know where to put this but I marvel at someone doing all that counting work: 

Supernatural - Screen Time Counter

The brothers are a given but the recurring characters wildly moving up and down the list over the course of the vid was fun. 

And let me say, this was 17h12m too much for me. (not the video, haha)  

I saw that last week.  It was fun.  But, since they did all the work, I want to know if the full list is somewhere.  I would never have the patience to just time one character much less all of them.

And I agree.  At least 16 hours too long anyway:)  

[Aeryn13]

42 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I saw that last week.  It was fun.  But, since they did all the work, I want to know if the full list is somewhere.  I would never have the patience to just time one character much less all of them.

And I agree.  At least 16 hours too long anyway:)  

Timing certain characters would mean having to sit through their scenes again. 12 solid hours of SPN!Lucifer or Mary? That is the worst hell imaginable. 

As for Nougat, after having finished binging CAOS and seeing what a young aka teenage character who is Lucifer`s kid and is a good person and well-meaning but also majorly flawed and their darker actions and impulses being addressed can look like, I have less than zero patience for the beige cutesy version from SPN who gets showered with lavish praise and literal godhood. It`s not like noone can do an interesting character like that, it`s that Dabb & co couldn`t.    

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, MAK said:

Didn't Dean's last words include, "Always keep fighting"? 

If he wanted Sam to give up hunting and become a stay-at-home dad, why would he say something like that?

There is a pretty big world between full-time, lone hunter and stay-at-home dad. 

Dean has had doubts about hunting 'forever', and thoughts about who and how they might settle down since The Chitters. He actively encouraged Sam to pursue his relationship with Eileen. Just because the writers don't recall things, doesn't mean the viewers don't. In the context of the death scene, Dean said "I'm going to be with you, right here, every day you're out there living, and you're fighting, because you, you always keep fighting." I don't think this meant hunting, or at least just hunting, but fighting to live without him, to not give up or follow him, because that's who Dean is.

[MAK]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean has had doubts about hunting 'forever', and thoughts about who and how they might settle down since The Chitters. He actively encouraged Sam to pursue his relationship with Eileen. Just because the writers don't recall things, doesn't mean the viewers don't. In the context of the death scene, Dean said "I'm going to be with you, right here, every day you're out there living, and you're fighting, because you, you always keep fighting." I don't think this meant hunting, or at least just hunting, but fighting to live without him, to not give up or follow him, because that's who Dean is.

ITA. Dean wanted Sam to live a full life, probably including hunting in some form. Main thing was that Sam should be happy, and not go on a bender or something just because Dean's no longer there. Whatever Sam was doing in the finale, he didn't look very happy. 

I think Dean wanted Sam and Eileen to work, because historically (canonically) Sam's girlfriends never truly knew Sam. He always hid the hunting part. Maybe to be accepted? Who knows? But Eileen knew who Sam really was, and was (supposedly) still interested. Sam even asked Dean about this type of scenario in "Baby," so Dean probably assumed it was something Sam wanted, so he encouraged it.

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There is a pretty big world between full-time, lone hunter and stay-at-home dad. 

Dean has had doubts about hunting 'forever', and thoughts about who and how they might settle down since The Chitters. He actively encouraged Sam to pursue his relationship with Eileen. Just because the writers don't recall things, doesn't mean the viewers don't. In the context of the death scene, Dean said "I'm going to be with you, right here, every day you're out there living, and you're fighting, because you, you always keep fighting." I don't think this meant hunting, or at least just hunting, but fighting to live without him, to not give up or follow him, because that's who Dean is.

It's obvious Dean himself was looking beyond hunting - which is just thing #212 that makes Dean's death so tragic and awful for fans to deal with. Not a "success story". But Dean definitely wasn't telling Sam to never hunt again. Dean wasn't specifying at all what Sam should or should not do, though Dean did tell Sam he had the ability to carry on hunting without him. Dean also did not specify who Sam should or should not marry. We don't even know if Eileen was still hunting at that point - or if useless Gack ever brought her back. But the one thing season 15 canon tells us on multiple occasions is that Dean thought Eileen was a good match for Sam.

I don't know why they didn't bring Eileen back in, or even just insinuate that Sam hooked up with her. It just feels like Dabb and/or the network made the decision that suddenly no one else in the entire SPN universe should exist anymore in the last episode.

Edited January 16, 2021 by PAForrest

[Pondlass1]

I just watched the Siren episode on Amazon.  Dabb would’ve gone for the obvious, so  It’s interesting that the Siren isn’t a busty beauty from the strip club which one would expect considering its Dean, but an FBI agent who’s wowed by Deans cool car and enthusiastically shares his taste in music, etc.  They get on like a house on fire. A few scenes of their budding rapport are missing from Amazon, but one gets the idea  right away that Dean is starving for a guy friend.  Kind of sad really that his line of work kept him a loner

Also, the Siren has Dean and Sam brawling till the death, although equally skilled and equally affected by the Siren it’s Dean that wins and would’ve killed Sam if it wasn’t for Bobby arriving just in time.LOL

Some early episodes get me bit frustrated now, especially Watching Zach so desperately invested in getting Dean to say yes to Michael. Almost painful to watch now. 
 

[DeeDee79]

50 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I just watched the Siren episode on Amazon.  Dabb would’ve gone for the obvious, so  It’s interesting that the Siren isn’t a busty beauty from the strip club which one would expect considering its Dean, but an FBI agent who’s wowed by Deans cool car and enthusiastically shares his taste in music, etc.  They get on like a house on fire. A few scenes of their budding rapport are missing from Amazon, but one gets the idea  right away that Dean is starving for a guy friend.  Kind of sad really that his line of work kept him a loner

Also, the Siren has Dean and Sam brawling till the death, although equally skilled and equally affected by the Siren it’s Dean that wins and would’ve killed Sam if it wasn’t for Bobby arriving just in time.LOL

Some early episodes get me bit frustrated now, especially Watching Zach so desperately invested in getting Dean to say yes to Michael. Almost painful to watch now. 
 

Supernatural is on Amazon? I don't see it!

[FlickChick]

37 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Supernatural is on Amazon? I don't see it!

No, it isn't. I think Dee Dee is confusing it with Netflix. However, I had no idea that Netflix edited the episodes. That's disappointing.

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

No, it isn't. I think Dee Dee is confusing it with Netflix. However, I had no idea that Netflix edited the episodes. That's disappointing.

You mean Pondlass is confusing it with Netflix? I'm the one that was skeptical that it was on Amazon 🙂

 

[tessathereaper]

22 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

No, it isn't. I think Dee Dee is confusing it with Netflix. However, I had no idea that Netflix edited the episodes. That's disappointing.

I didn't know that either.  Why would they edit the episodes?

[FlickChick]

15 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

You mean Pondlass is confusing it with Netflix? I'm the one that was skeptical that it was on Amazon 🙂

 

Yes I do - duh! Unfortunately I confuse that a lot. 🙁

[gonzosgirrl]

Supernatural is on Prime in Canada.  It's not on Netflix in Canada. 

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Supernatural is on Prime in Canada.  It's not on Netflix in Canada. 

Thanks for the clarification!

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Dabb would’ve gone for the obvious, so  It’s interesting that the Siren isn’t a busty beauty from the strip club which one would expect considering its Dean, but an FBI agent who’s wowed by Deans cool car and enthusiastically shares his taste in music, etc.  They get on like a house on fire. A few scenes of their budding rapport are missing from Amazon, but one gets the idea  right away that Dean is starving for a guy friend.  Kind of sad really that his line of work kept him a loner

I always thought that what the siren saw was that Dean wanted the little brother he was missing in Sam at that point.

[ahrtee]

29 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I always thought that what the siren saw was that Dean wanted the little brother he was missing in Sam at that point.

MUNROE: Or it could be her saliva...You really should have wiped the lip of that thing before you drank from it, Dean. (A look of realization crosses DEAN's face). I should be your little brother. Sam. You can't trust him. Not like you can trust me. (MUNROE's reflection in the rear vision mirror is that of a monster.) In fact, I really feel like you should get him outtta the way, so we can be brothers. Forever.

DEAN: Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

 

[Pondlass1]

Oops. Apologies for confusing everybody. I tend to do that a lot. I’m in Canada, eh! 🇨🇦
Rewatching the series is like a whole new experience after the Dabb seasons.

[Pondlass1]

I’m hoping now that there’s apparently a heightened interest in Supernatural that a whole bunch of newbies might join us here with fresh new perspectives and opinions.

Buffy’s board is still going strong.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

I just had an online word game tell me that 'gank' is not a word. How dare?!  😁

[DeeDee79]

21 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I just had an online word game tell me that 'gank' is not a word. How dare?!  😁

Try "meatsuit" next!

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I just had an online word game tell me that 'gank' is not a word. How dare?!  😁

Interesting.  It's in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, but it doesn't mean kill.  It means steal. I've never heard it used that way before.  First known use 1987.  

Also in Dictionary.com, same meaning, but also has meaning kill in video games.

5 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Try "meatsuit" next!

Not in the dictionary:)

Edited February 12, 2021 by Katy M

[DeeDee79]

30 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Not in the dictionary:)

What a pity!

[trudysmom]

Home this week and saw some season 4 episodes were airing yesterday.  I was struck, again, with how raw and gritty and  real the show was before dabb got his meathooks on it.  Sam stitching up his arm, Dean's dislocated shoulder.  They were dirty and sweaty and the show didn't clean them up or comb Sam's perfect hair.  These little details, are they all dabb's fault, or did overall values fall over time?  Anyway, I watched part of an episode and switched off.  Heart still hurts over the epic fail of the finale.

Edited February 12, 2021 by trudysmom
I can spell, really I can.

[Myrelle]

"I think it almost always had a certain goofiness but a lot of charm behind it and fun. There are maybe 2 or 3 episodes I would hold up as genuinely great. 

Their essence was destroyed later on narratively but by themselves they stood head and shoulders above the rest of the show.

In the end I'd say Seasons 1, 2 and 4 for all their flaws were the good Seasons of the show"-Aeryn from the Carry On thread.

So this is how I've also always pretty much perceived the overall quality and writing for Supernatural. 

What I'm more curious about is the two or three that you found to be great because I also agree with that somewhat, too, and just wondered about your choices. 

I'm leaving mine here and if you have a chance, I'd really like to know yours and anyone else's who cares to respond. 

I'd just like to add that I'm only curious about what others here might find to be truly great episodes-meaning everything came together within the episode-including the writing, acting, directing, and cinematography(at least) and within the entire episode, not just in a scene or two.

For me, the three that first came to mind were What Is and What Should Never Be, In My Time of Dying and In The Beginning with The End vying with that last one for my final pick, but also with the caveat that I also love watching Devil's Trap in conjunction with IMTOD, even though I find the latter episode to be the greater of the two.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

@Myrelle I would add Abandon All Hope to your picks. It was, IMO, the single-most heartwrenching beginning-to-end episodes of the series. It had that same dystopian 'look' about it that The End had, only this one was real. It brought Death into the story, and it killed any faint hope they had in the Colt. Unlike so many others, the death of Ellen and Jo packed a huge emotional wallop, especially in hindsight when they are two of the very few whose demise was permanent. The scenes between Cas and Meg were great. The cost to the Winchesters of the events in this episode shaped so much of their future. Bobby throwing that photo in the fire in the end was as impactful as any of the funeral pyres, before or after.

[Pondlass1]

I’m doing a rewatch after a good few years... just watched Repo Man and was struck by how little exposition there was back then.  And we really got to see first hand how gruelling and seedy their hunting lives were. 

He kills the wee doggy. 😭

[Aeryn13]

24 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

"I think it almost always had a certain goofiness but a lot of charm behind it and fun. There are maybe 2 or 3 episodes I would hold up as genuinely great. 

Their essence was destroyed later on narratively but by themselves they stood head and shoulders above the rest of the show.

In the end I'd say Seasons 1, 2 and 4 for all their flaws were the good Seasons of the show"-Aeryn from the Carry On thread.

So this is how I've also always pretty much perceived the overall quality and writing for Supernatural. 

What I'm more curious about is the two or three that you found to be great because I also agree with that somewhat, too, and just wondered about your choices. 

I'm leaving mine here and if you have a chance, I'd really like to know yours and anyone else's who cares to respond. 

I'd just like to add that I'm only curious about what others here might find to be truly great episodes-meaning everything came together within the episode-including the writing, acting, directing, and cinematography(at least) and within the entire episode, not just in a scene or two.

For me, the three that first came to mind were What Is and What Should Never Be, In My Time of Dying and In The Beginning with The End vying with that last one for my final pick, but also with the caveat that I also love watching Devil's Trap in conjunction with IMTOD, even though I find the latter episode to be the greater of the two.

 

Well, of course I'm refering to Bloodlines and Wayward Sisters, those titans of television history and...not convincing? 😁

The two greatest episodes of the show for me have always been IMTOD and Lazarus Rising. For me those are the standouts. Closely followed by What is and what should never be and The End.

Devil's Trap is actually my favourite Finale out of the entire show. 

In the Beginning is a very good one, too. Certainly in my top ten.

There are some "concept" episodes that I do actually think had good stuff in them or worked well. I consider Monster Movie very charming and seriuosly underrated.  Changing Channels had good things. The French Mistake.

Abandon all hope has - bar none - the best-written character exit/death in this show. And unruined, too.

 

 

[ahrtee]

IA with just about all the eps listed.  I'd add Nightshifter and Jus in Bello, which are tightly-written, claustrophobic and so well acted and directed by all concerned.   OTHOAP almost too intense and harrowing to watch.  And Faith is the episode that got me started watching seriously instead of just half-assed, though there are some not-so-great moments in the middle.  

There are a lot of episodes I love and think are wonderful in part, but either ramble a bit or go off track somewhere (especially many of the later ones) but would still recommend to new viewers.  

 

[gonzosgirrl]

27 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I’m doing a rewatch after a good few years... just watched Repo Man and was struck by how little exposition there was back then.

This is so true, and one of the reasons I mentioned Abandon All Hope. There really isn't a moment wasted in the episode - it all matters. And it doesn't lead us by the nose to remind us of Dean's connection to Jo, or to Hellhounds, or why it is all so devastating for Sam, etc. One of the things I hated most about the Badd era is opening every other episode by telling us why we should -at least temporarily, if not forever - forget everything that is happening in the story, because they aren't talented enough to do it any other way. That, and the lazy, gratuitous 'here's what you didn't see' scenes to explain things that otherwise make no sense.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, of course I'm refering to Bloodlines and Wayward Sisters, those titans of television history and...not convincing? 😁

The two greatest episodes of the show for me have always been IMTOD and Lazarus Rising. For me those are the standouts. Closely followed by What is and what should never be and The End.

Devil's Trap is actually my favourite Finale out of the entire show. 

In the Beginning is a very good one, too. Certainly in my top ten.

There are some "concept" episodes that I do actually think had good stuff in them or worked well. I consider Monster Movie very charming and seriuosly underrated.  Changing Channels had good things. The French Mistake.

Abandon all hope has - bar none - the best-written character exit/death in this show. And unruined, too.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

IA with just about all the eps listed.  I'd add Nightshifter and Jus in Bello, which are tightly-written, claustrophobic and so well acted and directed by all concerned.   OTHOAP almost too intense and harrowing to watch.  And Faith is the episode that got me started watching seriously instead of just half-assed, though there are some not-so-great moments in the middle.  

There are a lot of episodes I love and think are wonderful in part, but either ramble a bit or go off track somewhere (especially many of the later ones) but would still recommend to new viewers.  

 

S2 was the first season I watched live and in real time and it just felt so much like I was reading a book-a lifetime love for me-so much so that I rarely even watched scripted television any more at the time I discovered Supernatural. 

I loved how all the parts, just everything in the standalones and the myth-arc episodes, was woven together better and so well, in those first four seasons than it ever was again after S4.

I DO remember much preferring the standalones back then, though(or at least through S3; S4 pulled me into the myth-arc more), as characterization has always been the driving force for me in the works of fiction that I've always enjoyed most.

And when the story is as engrossing as the characters within it, that's what makes it magical for me.

But, as became the sad usual on this show after S4, the set-up in those first four seasons was so promising for both aspects with the final payoff just feeling "less than" as the best descriptor that I can come up with for it-again, something that would often become the pattern, AFAIC, as the series went on-not always, but too often for me.

But with television you have the visual aspect that can add immensely to the magic, too, if done properly.

There are shots from this show that I would categorize as actual artwork, especially with a director/producer like Kim Manners and Serge L. the long time Director of Photography(sorry, can't remember his last name).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that for four years, this show was pretty close to top shelf for me as far as television viewing was concerned and it opened the door to me trying out other series and shows and made me realize that hey, television actually had some quality stuff to offer this long time, book snob and doubter of that. 😉

Edited February 12, 2021 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

34 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

There are shots from this show that I would categorize as actual artwork, especially with a director/producer like Kim Manners and Serge L. the long time Director of Photography(sorry, can't remember his last name).

Ladoucer - an amazing talent.

I love, love, loved the look of the early season. That washed out, dark look was so atmospheric it was practically a character on its own. Compare that to the opening episodes of S15 with escapees from a discount costume shop rummage sale running down the street in broad sunshine. It makes me want to cry.

[Pondlass1]

They did a lot of night shoots back then. Couldn’t have been fun in damp chilly Vancouver, but so well worth it.

Lots of really close closeups too. 😍
 

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Pondlass1

[FlickChick]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Ladoucer - an amazing talent.

I love, love, loved the look of the early season. That washed out, dark look was so atmospheric it was practically a character on its own. Compare that to the opening episodes of S15 with escapees from a discount costume shop rummage sale running down the street in broad sunshine. It makes me want to cry.

I still maintain that those episodes were a deliberate FU to all the fans by Badd.

But back on topic, I too loved all the episodes mentioned so far. I think S2 has always been my favorite, although I loved many episodes from other seasons, especially "Lazarus Rising" and "Abandon All Hope" from another good season. I am still enjoying watching them and putting all the attempts by Badd to ruin this series out of my head. As an aside, I've often wondered how the show would have progressed if Kim Manners was still with us. Such a great loss. We've had some great directors over the seasons, and much first rate acting, and as mentioned above, great cinematography, so all in all, the series has much merit despite the last seasons.

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

IA with just about all the eps listed.  I'd add Nightshifter and Jus in Bello, which are tightly-written, claustrophobic and so well acted and directed by all concerned.   OTHOAP almost too intense and harrowing to watch.  And Faith is the episode that got me started watching seriously instead of just half-assed, though there are some not-so-great moments in the middle.  

There are a lot of episodes I love and think are wonderful in part, but either ramble a bit or go off track somewhere (especially many of the later ones) but would still recommend to new viewers.  

 

You picked my top three! Faith and Jus In Bello are two of my favorites but Nightshifter is my absolute favorite. It’s compelling from start to finish and introduces one of my favorite adversaries turned ally, Victor Henriksen. 

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

You picked my top three! Faith and Jus In Bello are two of my favorites but Nightshifter is my absolute favorite. It’s compelling from start to finish and introduces one of my favorite adversaries turned ally, Victor Henriksen. 

I think Nighshifter is flawless too, DEEDEE.

I'll never forget watching it for the first time. 💝

[DeeDee79]

55 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I think Nighshifter is flawless too, DEEDEE.

I'll never forget watching it for the first time. 💝

I’ve rewatched it more than any other episode and it still impresses me like it’s the first time!

[AwesomO4000]

On 2/11/2021 at 3:53 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I just had an online word game tell me that 'gank' is not a word. How dare?!  😁

Heh. I'll have to try consciously check that out in my new online word game. I'm pretty sure it'll take it. I'm always surprised by some of the words it accepts - including some downright at least grade B+ cuss words, and some descriptive body part terms - and I think that's sometimes how I win some of my matches, because I actually try those words and get them accepted and so therefor get points for them. Heh.

19 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I'm leaving mine here and if you have a chance, I'd really like to know yours and anyone else's who cares to respond. 

I'd just like to add that I'm only curious about what others here might find to be truly great episodes-meaning everything came together within the episode-including the writing, acting, directing, and cinematography(at least) and within the entire episode, not just in a scene or two.

For me, the three that first came to mind were What Is and What Should Never Be, In My Time of Dying and In The Beginning with The End vying with that last one for my final pick, but also with the caveat that I also love watching Devil's Trap in conjunction with IMTOD, even though I find the latter episode to be the greater of the two.

I'll respond, but I won't be able to limit it to two or three. I also might have a different perspective on what I find to be truly great episodes. And weirdly after season 2, you'll see that quite a few of my great episodes come from later seasons.

I agree with What Is... and In My Time of Dying. And Abandon All Hope was a great - and emotionally wrenching - episode. Loved Nightshifter. I also tend to like the meta - Dean and Sam's opinion be damned - so Hollywood Babylon, Changing Channels and The French Mistake go on my list. Slash Fiction does also. I just ignore the last scene as being part of that episode, because the rest was so awesome for me (RIP Chet. How I missed your sarcasm.). And now here's where I really go off the beaten path, because I'm going to include some season 11 episodes. Fan Fiction from season 10 might've made the list - and comes close - but gets bumped off by season 11's Baby, the brilliant (in my opinion) Safe House, and Don't Call Me Shurley. I personally loved Into the Mystic and Just My Imagination, too ... which explains why, despite its faults - of which I'm aware are many and varied - season 11 makes my list of top 5 Supernatural seasons. There I said it. (The others would be 1, 2, 5, and either 6 or 7 depending on my mood, but usually 6.) And I'm aware that I left off season 4. I have many reasons for that. I have issues (which in my head is always said in the voice of Clem, Spike's demon buddy from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.)

[Casseiopeia]

46 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Heh. I'll have to try consciously check that out in my new online word game. I'm pretty sure it'll take it. I'm always surprised by some of the words it accepts - including some downright at least grade B+ cuss words, and some descriptive body part terms - and I think that's sometimes how I win some of my matches, because I actually try those words and get them accepted and so therefor get points for them. Heh.

I'll respond, but I won't be able to limit it to two or three. I also might have a different perspective on what I find to be truly great episodes. And weirdly after season 2, you'll see that quite a few of my great episodes come from later seasons.

I agree with What Is... and In My Time of Dying. And Abandon All Hope was a great - and emotionally wrenching - episode. Loved Nightshifter. I also tend to like the meta - Dean and Sam's opinion be damned - so Hollywood Babylon, Changing Channels and The French Mistake go on my list. Slash Fiction does also. I just ignore the last scene as being part of that episode, because the rest was so awesome for me (RIP Chet. How I missed your sarcasm.). And now here's where I really go off the beaten path, because I'm going to include some season 11 episodes. Fan Fiction from season 10 might've made the list - and comes close - but gets bumped off by season 11's Baby, the brilliant (in my opinion) Safe House, and Don't Call Me Shurley. I personally loved Into the Mystic and Just My Imagination, too ... which explains why, despite its faults - of which I'm aware are many and varied - season 11 makes my list of top 5 Supernatural seasons. There I said it. (The others would be 1, 2, 5, and either 6 or 7 depending on my mood, but usually 6.) And I'm aware that I left off season 4. I have many reasons for that. I have issues (which in my head is always said in the voice of Clem, Spike's demon buddy from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.)

S11 was my favorite season since S6 until the last 3 episodes.