Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[mstaken]

really wonder if the writers understand what the fans mean when they say they miss season 1.

 

Just reading your post made me nostalgic for S1 all over again. It's funny, because objectively I think parts of it were incredibly clunky and heavyhanded, and I'm in the (unpopular?!) camp who doesn't enjoy John or the endless "but shouldn't we be looking for Dad?!" discussions leading up to his appearance, but yet S1 is still easily the season that cheers me up the most, and I feel an oddly deep sentimental attachment to it. Even at its most angst-drenched, it somehow felt more hopeful, adventurous, joyful and fun than the vast majority of what we've gotten since.  

[Pete Martell]

The pilot is excellent, but I'll never be fully comfortable with the whole manpain aspect, the way Jessica and Mary were used. 

 

For that reason I tend to prefer MOTW episodes in the first two seasons that don't follow this pattern. 

 

The first season will always be the best for me, because it was the only season to get the myth arc and the MOTW format perfectly balanced. 

 

I actually don't think the show did a good job with any of the myth arc/long-running stories in season 2 (Special Children, Harvelles, psychic friend Sam, Dean grieving John), although I guess they did manage to believably set up Dean selling his soul. 

 

Season 2 has so many wonderful MOTW episodes. I still wish the show had ended after Hollywood Babylon. 

Edited July 12, 2014 by Pete Martell

[mstaken]

I actually don't think the show did a good job with any of the myth arc/long-running stories in season 2 (Special Children, Harvelles, Dean grieving John),

 

I totally share this UO! S2 has actually lost a bit of its former wonderfulness for me, as I'm always unhappily surprised all over again by just how much I dislike the grieving over John stuff and the no-really-did-they-not-take-five-minutes-to-plan-this out?! storyline with the 'special' kids. (I really like Ava and even Andy, just not the overall storyline.) As much as I complain about the mawkish, heavy-handed angst of later seasons, S2 had more of it than I'd like to admit. (Fortunately, back then that angst was better balanced by a little more humor and fun and a few 'wins' along the way.) And while I don't dislike the Harvelles, I'm pretty indifferent to them* and thought the whole idea of the Road House was a bit of a mess. Thank god (er, the one who hasn't "left the building") for the stellar MotWs! 

 

*Other than being a few years older, Ellen was IM(U)O that exact same 'super sassy and tough and hardass yet super loyal and full o' folsky wisdom!' female that SPN gives us over and over and over and---well, you get the point ;) 

 

 

 

The first season will always be the best for me, because it was the only season to get the myth arc and the MOTW format perfectly balanced.

 

This is a great way of looking at S1, and I think I agree---I just happen not to love the arc in question as much as most do :) I do think S1 is the least depressing season and features the brothers and their relationship at their most root-worthy and lovable for me, which means it's also the season that's now most frequently found in my DVD player despite thinking the series had higher highs in S2 and S3. (I do actually think S3 did a nice job balancing the MotWs and larger overall arc as well, especially when I factor in that they had fewer episodes to work with due to the writers' strike.) 

Edited July 12, 2014 by mstaken

[catrox14]

A safe place to talk about the things that piss you off about Supernatural.

[Demented Daisy]

Demon Dean.  I will never forgive them for taking away the only human left.  

[SueB]

Excellent title.

[catrox14]

Thanks. Demon Dean inspired me. Oh the irony.

[Aunty Sharon]

ooh goodie, another place for me to vent my despair about the waste of Agent Henriksson. 

 

THAT was you spin-off, right there, in front of you. But you threw it away :(  

[amensisterfriend]

Oh, my new home! Where to begin?!

 

1. I hate that Sam was never a well-defined character and that some of JP's acting choices made him even more joyless, dour and petulant than he had to be. You know things are bad when I sincerely look upon Soulless Sam as the time I MOST enjoyed his character post-S1. Sadly, I'm not joking. (And I think JP is better suited for that type of role; he actually amused me as Soulless Sam, which I'm hoping was the intention!) 

 

2. I hate that Dean all of a sudden started growling like a five-pack-a-day smoker when he emerged from hell and the 'Dean is kind of an alcoholic, except when he isn't" stuff always depresses me.  

 

3. In general, I think the show sucks at creating female characters who are layered, interesting and relatable. And the ones I like either don't appear past one episode or die soon thereafter.  

 

4. For me, the stuff about myths and legends was a big part of what made this show engaging, compelling and just plain fun. The  straining to be "epic" storylines about neverending wars between angels and demons who I couldn't care less about and the sloppily written apocalypses bore and depress me. Speaking of which...

 

5. The show has WAY too much angst. Way, way, way, WAY too much :) The writers did give in to their tendency to wallow excessively in angst over the first three seasons (with an embarrassing lack of subtlety that, ironically, often made those scenes a lot less poignant than they could have been!), but at least back then the angst was counterbalanced by a tiny bit of joy, triumph, humor, and adventure. Now the bleakness is just so relentless, depressing (it's no accident that I've already used that word 3-4 times in complaining about the show!) and so constant that it long ago lost its power to affect me. We GET it, show: The brothers have virtually no positive qualities anymore, can't stand each other more often than not, and absolutely everyone and everything sucks beyond the telling of it. How thrilling, nuanced and entertaining! ;)

 

I'm sure there's more, but I'll spare you guys!  

Edited October 17, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[amensisterfriend]

...After rewatching reruns on TNT, I have to admit that I always like Season 6 more than I expect to. I couldn't care less about Lisa and Ben, but I think there are a surprising a lot of interesting ideas and well done scenes and episodes. I'll even go as far to say that overall I prefer S6 and S7 slightly to S4 and S5...and prefer them by a wide margin to S8 and S9! 

[Mulva]

I'm also bitter about offing Hendrickson. This show has systematically exterminated all the interesting side characters for some reason I can't fathom.

I'm bitter about Sam getting 100% for 'starting the apocolypse'. Gee, you'd think that he deliberately broke all 66 seals by himself, instead of unwittingly breaking one. Meanwhile, that other guy on the show, who broke the first seal, and the angel who knew that Lillith was seal #66, exhorted Sam to kill her and let him out of the panic room, get off scot-free.

[amensisterfriend]

I forgot to add the related unpopular opinion that I really enjoyed Soulless Sam a lot. I find the whole idea of soullessness fascinating (Whether it was executed well here was up for debate, but it brings up some interesting philosophical issues!), and I think JP was surprisingly great as an amusingly soulless semi-sociopath :)  

[Hana Chan]

This may be unpopular, but I've grown to really resent the hypocrisy on the show about how the brothers are treated when they do much the same thing. Sam wants to give up on hunting and try to find a normal life with college and it's treated as the worst thing possible (and caused him to basically be kicked out of the family for the duration). Dean decides to stay with Lisa and Ben when Sam turns up on his doorstep after coming back from Hell and his feelings about being torn between the two was seen in nothing but a sympathetic light. Sam starts on demon blood in a desperate attempt to kill Lilith and he gets called a monster by his brother. Dean takes on the MoC in an effort to kill Abaddon, and he's treated in the show like the tragic hero. Dean takes on multiple substitute brothers when Sam is found lacking in some way (Castiel and Benny) and that's treated as justified even though it hurt Sam deeply. Sam can't get past Dean allowing him to be possessed and he's a bad person because it hurt Dean. Both of them do stupid, selfish things that hurt one another, but Dean's behaviors nearly always get painted in a more sympathetic light if only because his POV is the one that tends to get the focus.

[Hana Chan]

Where do I start..? How about how Sam is treated like the red-headed stepchild of the show by both the writers and a big part of the fandom. That everything he does, no matter how justified it might be, however well-meaning his actions are or how he is manipulated by others gets treated as the worst possible thing in the world.

 

Or how Dean can call Sam a "monster" and use him as a punching bag when he's upset about something Sam does, and it's often seen as at least somewhat justified. Dean can decide at a whim that Castiel or Benny are preferable "brothers" to Sam when Sam is found lacking in some capacity (as far as Dean is concerned) it's treated sympathetically and we aren't given much insight into how Dean's pronouncements affected Sam. But when Sam is angry enough with Dean over having allowed an angel to possess him to call their relationship into question, it's treated as being cruel and selfish on Sam's part. Sam drinks demon blood with the goal of killing the demon that not only took his brother to hell, but that he was told was trying to release Lucifer and he's treated by the show as being arrogant and selfish. Dean takes on the MoC (with a similar goal) that he knew was as self-destructive as Sam's actions (and lead to an awful result) is treated like a grand tragedy.

 

Nice to have a place to vent a little.

[catrox14]

Just to clarify, I started this as a bitterness thread so that people can rant but not to debate the bitterness itself or to try and talk someone out of their bitterness.  Just wanted to put that out there.

[Aeryn13]

Since I see it coming a mile away again, I`m really bitter than in brother arguments, Dean`s deck always gets stacked with the easy-to-shoot-down strawman arguments so his position looks weak and he can easily be made to crawl back in apology later. Instead of just once being allowed to air legitimate grievances where Sam doesn`t look like a wounded victim.

 

In reverse I`m bitter that Sam can`t be made to phrase his "I accept responsibility" speeches in such a way that I actually hear "I accept responsibility". It`s always a tongue-twister that actually deflects blame. 

 

And I`m so incredibly bitter that we didn`t get to see Demon!Dean have some cool powers. Years back, I would have been horrified had Dean been turned into a demon but Season after Season of rimming mytharc!Sam and the horror of butler!Dean of 8.2 made me grateful for the current storyline. But godamnit, if I accepted an "evol" storyline, I wanted at least the works in trade. I had to suffer through the hand of Ipecac and all the other supernatural permutations with powers how many years? And yet not one measly episode of superpowers for Dean?

 

I know, it`s just number 115 or so on the list of "why the writers suck" but bitterness aplenty for me..

   

[Hana Chan]

It's been an endless source of frustration to me since The Song Remains the Same that Mary is never really blamed for the total shit storm that became the lives of the Winchester boys. She was the one that made the deal and sold out Sam to YED before Sam was even a twinkle in John's eye and cost her children any chance of a normal life, but Dean's resentments seem to be fixated on what John did in the aftermath. John was the shit parent for pressing Sam and Dean into this life, but Mary's memory remains intact (even though Dean saw her making the deal).

 

I also really don't like the retconning of John's character, taking him from being a flawed man who made a lot of mistakes. Between finding out about Adam to hints of abuse and the marital problems between John and Mary, they totally trashed John's memory.

[Mulva]

Thank you Hana, I've been baffled as to why Sam gets the blame for everything, we never see his POV and the double standards in both the show and fandom. As for Mary, I hope we'll find out she went straight to hell - she certainly deserved it.

[amensisterfriend]

This is a very unpopular opinion, but I think I've fallen partly out of love with Season 2, which most people I know name as their very favorite season. (And it used to be my very favorite season as well!) Maybe I just watched S2 too many times, but I find that now I generally prefer S1, S3 and even many episodes from S5. The sudden existence of the road house doesn't work for me, Jo and Ellen are fine but don't add to my enjoyment of the show, I don't like the way the grieving over John was executed, the psychic kids arc was kind of a disaster, the stuff over the big shocking secret that John told Dean wasn't really shocking at all and is frustrating to watch, and there's too much of the overly talky, repetitive angst that later started devouring the series for me. There are still some great episodes, but I find myself reaching for episodes from S1, S3 (and lately even S5) a lot more often. 

[Pete Martell]

I thought all the story arcs in season 2 (Jo, grieving for John, special children, Gordon) were mishandled and were big missed opportunities. 

 

I enjoy season 2 for the MOTW episodes. They had my favorite MOTW episodes of probably any season. If you look at those episodes you see how silly it is to claim MOTW episodes are "meaningless" and "filler."

[catrox14]

So, is this something we have to look forward to then, Dean 

freezing up all the time now? Because with no storyline, I at the very least expected him to still be a badass but if it`s just loser hunter scenes from here on out with Sam being flipping onto the scene to take care of everything, gone is even the last miniscule reason to watch the show. Seriously, Dean being a badass is all I had left (or I thought I would anyway).

 

 

Aeryn13....totally with you here.

 

am pretty dang annoyed with what they are doing with Dean right now. I mean seriously. They give him a great arc with the MoC and then murdered him and raised him a demon, which infuriated me. But then they make demon!Dean a really compelling character ( ALL HAIL JENSEN ACKLES) but it's for 3 frakking episodes? and half of those episodes are Sam trying to find him? But then they take that great arc where he was really a threat to Crowley and cure him immediately. 

 

Okay fine you took away demon!Dean but he still has the MoC. Dean was always a badass and a the best hunter on the planet and tough as hell. But now he's floundering because somehow him spending 5 freaking minutes as a demon has him unable to fight, to be a badass or to damn afraid he's going to kill someone?  And they have not done a good job explaining this to me as to why Dean is having this  crisis of hunting. I can understand if he's afraid of killing someone again but why would he be afraid to kill a monster? That doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me.

 

They better fix this shit with Dean and at least give him being the badass soldier that he always has been.

Edited October 30, 2014 by catrox14

[millennium]

That attempted spinoff episode last season.   What a POS.

[amensisterfriend]

Sometimes I find myself thinking that the show, despite some individually great episodes and moments, never realized the awesome potential of its (IMO) phenomenal pilot. The first season of a series is rarely my favorite, as first seasons are so often clunky, awkward and lacking the depth of the seasons which follow. And S1 of SPN IS kind of clunky and awkward at parts and probably not as good as S2, S3 and (some parts of!) S5,, but I also find myself wanting to rewatch it more than any other season and wishing that the rest of the series had maintained that energy, fun and sense of adventure. I miss when the Winchester brothers, while always burdened with more than their share of internal and external conflicts, seemed to genuinely like each other and sometimes enjoyed some genuine smiles and wins amidst all the gloom and doom. (It also doesn't hurt that I liked Sam far more in S1 than in any subsequent season!) 

Edited November 4, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[missbonnie]

Loved this show right up to the point where they made Castiel God. I gave it two episodes of that ridiculousness and then I was done. I did however watch the first three episodes of this season because demon Dean and Crowley was just plain funny.

[Pete Martell]

I think Dean having a crisis makes sense. He was conditioned to be a hunter. He had no choice in the matter. He was abused for decades. He's had more and more struggles with his identity over the course of the show. Even as a demon he was having an identity crisis, which is quite a feat. 

 

If Dean went back to being a BAMF right after the demon is gone, I'm not sure if I'd buy it. 

 

If I felt like the show was saying Dean is weak and Sam is strong (as they often did in seasons 4-6), I'd be annoyed, but I don't feel like they're saying this. To me it's not about weakness. It's about Dean's crippling fears and baggage, along with the mark and what it does to him. 

 

A big Dean fan wrote this about the last episode. 

 

http://veneredirimmel.tumblr.com/post/101690578265/i-want-to-elaborate-on-these-thoughts-i-dont

[catrox14]

Okay I really liked that analysis. I guess looking at Dean in that moment in some slowmo giffery..I see the hesitation but not a fearful hesitation. To me that matches my thoughts that Dean was analyzing the situation but I think I can see now that analyzing for his own reasons vs analyzing whether it was right or wrong to kill her.  That still doesn't help me with the other scene with Dean not fighting back and not seeming to have that same analytical process as in the scene when he's deciding whether to shoot Kate or not.

[millennium]

I'm having a problem with the cherrypicking approach the writers are using when it comes to Christian beliefs in God, Heaven, etc. 

 

Okay, fine, God has left the building (impled that it's God the Father).   But where's Jesus?   Where's the Virgin Mary?  Where are the saints?   Where are all the souls who reside in Heaven?  Why are none of them ever mentioned, either by the Winchesters or the Angels?

 

Supernatural has created a very narrow and one-dimensional version of Heaven.    It's like "Welcome to Heaven!  Population: God and a handful of angels."  

[supposebly]

I think for a TV show, it's actually quite consistent. It's more Old Testament than New Testament. I agree that they missed a golden opportunity to show the impact closing Heaven or even Hell would have on the souls that die. Now, THAT could have been quite an apocalypse. A creepy one at that. A ghost epidemic.

 

I think my main gripe with the show are all the missed opportunities and the lack of subtlety sometimes. And the character assassination for plot reasons (or no reason at all) and reaper-made-pseudo hunters. But I guess the latter happens almost with every show that runs so long.

I think it's better rewatch material when there is a tight consistent short run of seasons than this stretching-out until things get so muddled and retconned and boring and repetitive that the later seasons taint the earlier ones.

[catrox14]

I have no problem with the lack of a completely accurate Christian biblical interpretation. I struggled enough already with what we have gotten as a non religious person. I would not continue to watch if they didn't subvert that mythology and make it their own.

[7kstar]

I'm having a problem with the cherrypicking approach the writers are using when it comes to Christian beliefs in God, Heaven, etc. 

 

Okay, fine, God has left the building (impled that it's God the Father).   But where's Jesus?   Where's the Virgin Mary?  Where are the saints?   Where are all the souls who reside in Heaven?  Why are none of them ever mentioned, either by the Winchesters or the Angels?

 

Supernatural has created a very narrow and one-dimensional version of Heaven.    It's like "Welcome to Heaven!  Population: God and a handful of angels."  

I think if they weren't so much afraid of being judged as "Touch by An Angel"  They could have realized the potential of showing two sides.  There certainly is so many missed opportunities but once you decide to show an opposite side do something different, don't make the angels the same as the demons.  Without contrast it puts you into a trap and creates a burden that is difficult to overcome.

 

I think my second issue is not really having a plan, a strong big picture so that you can stay consistent with the characters and really give the characters a reason to act out of character.  Ex.  Sam not looking for Dean in season 8, why didn't they give a compelling reason, it could have easily been done with a few lines.  I don't think they think things through and then are surprised by fan reaction. 

 

I also think there is a group think in Hollywood, that they can do whatever and the fans will come.  Example you use to never kill of the main characters, which is why there was the joke of don't wear a red shirt on Star Trek.  But now they seem to think that killing off the main characters is exciting.  Sure it can tell a strong story, but if you do it too often as Supernatural has done, it can also turn people off.  My real question I wonder, is how many fans have lasted the whole 10 years?  I started season 4 but I wonder if really the rise in ratings is due to new fans?  Which aren't so bored or upset with the repetition.

[amensisterfriend]

I miss when we got a lot more variety with creative spins on various myths and legends in lieu of these endless angel/demon 'wars' that I stopped caring about several seasons ago. It's as stale as the Winchesters once again confronting another apocalypse (yawn) and the end of the world. I totally get that the show needs a larger arc, but I just don't especially like the arcs they've chosen or how they've been executed. 

Edited November 8, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[supposebly]

Started watching at the end of season 2, so, I've been around pretty long. Sigh.

That's why I am advocating putting it to rest. I think it's time. And just the fact that I'm thinking that should prove that it is, indeed, time.

 

I too am a little worried that they are thinking having 10 seasons is proof to have 10 more. Shudder. I would like to remember this show fondly, not like something that should have been put out to pasture at the end.

Also, it would be nice to see Ackles and Padalecki in something else. Or Mark Sheppard in something where he doesn't just snark at people. Have him as a good guy for a change. Or to see whether Misha Collins is a one-hit-wonder or here to stay.

 

I love these characters, so I would like to not get to the point where I'm annoyed and bored. And I am getting there. I don't like it.

Edited November 8, 2014 by supposebly

[amensisterfriend]

Or to see whether Misha Collins is a one-hit-wonder or here to stay.

 

I take it you you weren't among the lucky viewers to see Stonehenge Apocalypse?! ;) (It's a guilty pleasure gem for me!)

 

Seriously, I'd guess that most shows---especially those with just two main characters (at times maybe three or four, depending on your definition)--- must struggle mightily after a few seasons to keep things fresh and interesting while still retaining what people loved about the show in the first place. They've already repeated certain storylines, themes and OMGANGST so relentlessly while burying much of what I once loved that I seriously shudder to think of what another full decade might bring! 

Edited November 8, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[catrox14]

Oh I don't think j2 would sign on for another ten seasons. Maybe two or three more at the most.

[Demented Daisy]

I wonder if really the rise in ratings is due to new fans?  Which aren't so bored or upset with the repetition.

 

 

Taking to All Seasons.

[supposebly]

I take it you you weren't among the lucky viewers to see Stonehenge Apocalypse?

 

Paraphrasing Jo: I might as well keep some of my self-respect. ;-)

 

 

Oh I don't think j2 would sign on for another ten seasons. Maybe two or three more at the most.

 

Oh, I was exaggerating. But I am a little worried since they are so comfortable and have such a good relationship with this everyone working on this show, I can see how it would be hard to end it. I just don't want to be in the position where I can't wait for the show to end or even stop watching before it ends. I'd rather be sad that when it ends, not relieved.

 

I'm not exactly bitter about the show as such, but I'm getting to....apathetic. Which is worse in my book.

Edited November 8, 2014 by supposebly

[SueB]

 

But where's Jesus?   Where's the Virgin Mary?  Where are the saints?   Where are all the souls who reside in Heaven?  Why are none of them ever mentioned, either by the Winchesters or the Angels?

I never know if it's okay to respond to posts in this thread because people should be able to just say something....but you asked questions...so...torn. 

First, I agree they cherry pick. More from Christianity than anything else because of all the Latinating, exorcisms, etc.. OTOH, I think they are much more Abrahmic deity than anything else -- so, it gives a larger playground.  Still, they've mentioned Moses (which brings in the rest of the Old Testament), 'that hippie from Bethlehem', and the Gospel of Luke in addition to all the Latin. So... with THAT in mind (and understanding I'm simply trying to provide a FANWANK on how they can rationalize... I really don't think they actually put that much thought into it):

- Jesus is part of God the Father so, he's with Dad (the concept of the Trinity)

- Saints are another form of dead humans so maybe have no administrative duties like the angels so... in Supernatural universe they just have a nice "heaven" -- maybe a community group vice "Winchesterland" -- TOTAL FANWANK

- Virgin Mary - well her statue bled in S5 but other than that we've seen nothing, so I'm gonna fanwank that she's hanging with the Saints

- Souls we got an answer on, they have their own lands "like Ashland". So those who WERE there probably still are. They have either completely dropped the ball on the souls stuck in limbo due to shutting the Gates of Heaven, or we haven't seen it yet, or it was solved off-screen (which would suck).

 

Also, they kept the concept of a Purgatory but COMPLETELY CHANGED IT.  Seems all not-evil souls go directly to Heaven and Purgatory is for monsters.  This is just another way that the Supernatural universe is not our universe. 

 

Now look at how they cherry-picked pagans: essentially they all require some sacrifice for power (okay, consistent within Supernatural universe but not consistent with our universe) but they made a boat-load of them cannibals.  So NOT COOL. 

 

Bottom line: I can fanwank some answers to your questions but I really think they are sticking with the notion that they will cherry-pick what is useful from ANY relligion and then twist it to their own storytelling dictates. 

 

BTW, if you didn't want any comments... nevermind....

[mertensia]

I think they stay away from Jesus because of potential backlash. Eve did say "you did know Jesus was just a man?" Which is hard to interpret.

[7kstar]

Oh I don't think j2 would sign on for another ten seasons. Maybe two or three more at the most.

I don't think this is spoiler but in case,

At Cons Jared has said we'll go forever and Jensen has given him a look that said are you crazy?

Then this last couple of cons Jensen has said the same as long as we have good stories to tell and Jared for the first time said maybe 2 or 3 more seasons. Then he went back to forever when the audience seemed upset.

 

Personally, I think they are trying to beat Smallville run and that would mean at least 11 years.  So they may sign a contract for 2 more but I think they also would like to do something else.  Exploring a new character is a big draw for an actor and I would love to see what new projects they could get.  It depends on what they do this season for me, if they do something different but if they gave the mark to Sam....I think that would be the last straw for me.

[catrox14]

smallville had 218 episodes so they will beat them this season with 22 or 23 episodes. They could call it a day this year if they wanted if that was the goal. I don't think either Jared or Jensen really want even another 5 years and I think most fans don't want that either. I think that's why the spin-off is getting such a big push again. They want the brand even if the boys opt-out.

Oh Gods if they give the Mark to Sam... Just no.

Edited November 9, 2014 by catrox14

[SW Dad]

I think this whole thread is just confirmation that there's a toolishly vocal few who like to speak for the majority and define the "popular" opinion for the rest of us.  I'm midway through S4 of my second run-through, and I wholeheartedly agree with the majority of the OP's points.  First and foremost, Yellow Fever gave me some hearty belly laughs on rewatch.  Especially Dean screaming his ass off.

 

I hate all the Rubys, I was eh about Meg 2.0, and Charlie had me at the Leia "Rebel" t-shirt.  S3 does suck slightly less than S4.  I think Dean is a far more interesting and complex character than Sam, who tends to bore me.  Jensen Ackles just pulls off some brilliant performances with amazing subtext in his body language, which is why I agree S3 is so awesome, because you can see how terrified he is behind the bravado, and it's heartbreaking.

 

I think my biggest issue with the meta episodes is when they reference the fandom rather that self-reflecting on the show. It all plays to a section of fandom I can't relate to.  All the Wincest and Destiel jokes fall completely flat (except for the very first one, where Sam describes what Wincest is).  To that end, I enjoyed Fan Fiction because it was much more about the show than the fandom.  And such a great, great cover of Carry On Wayward Son (which I've enjoyed every time they play it).

 

In rewatching the series, I've realized this show was very much on a bell curve, and it peaked very early.  This latest season...well, it feels so directionless.  It had such great Dean-as-a-demon potential, but then they quickly aborted that storyline when they realized they didn't know where to go with it.  And Sam's becoming a douchey psychopath again.  Which is always annoying.

Edited November 16, 2014 by SW Dad

[amensisterfriend]

I agree with the seemingly somewhat popular opinion that Sam was most likable in S1, but my UO is that I think Dean was at his most lovable in that very first season as well. He was fun, vibrant, and just the right mix of cockiness and vulnerability. The show hinted at his now infamous 'low self-esteem' issues without making 'awww, he doesn't know just how deserving and wonderful a man he is!' as Dean's salient characteristic and the issue that every freaking demon eventually comments on. He drank but wasn't a raging alcoholic, he cared a bit too much about doing what the family wanted without being pathetically codependent, he lost his temper and got down sometimes but still managed to find joy, humor and adventure out of their weird lives. Chick flick moments really were at a merciful minimum, and he didn't yet insist on speaking like he's a six-pack-a-day smoker!  And while I occasionally enjoyed Bobby, I can't help but feel it's not a coincidence that I loved and even admired both boys the most when they were forced to be so resourceful and independent in S1 rather than having constant access to SuperHuter, encylopediac Bobby beginning in S2. 

 

Don't get me wrong---I still like Dean and still think he's a much better defined, likable character than Sam has been for the vast majority of the series. But I really miss S1 Dean's spirit and zest for life. 

Edited November 20, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[AwesomO4000]

My unpopular opinion leads to my major bitterness complaint. My likely unpopular opinion is that I thought Sam was at his most likeable for me starting around the end of season 5 and then from season 6.5 through 7 *. While season 1 Sam still had some of his innocence as it was and he was trying to get to know Dean again, still looked up to him, etc., he was still somewhat immature and little-brothery in their relationship. He still wanted to prove himself too much and wanted to prove he could do things on his own. It was part of what lead to his huge crash and burn when he failed so many times, with his last failure - not being able to save Dean - being the one that broke him for a while.

 

On the other hand, Sam especially post his hell experience learned first-hand that "success" comes with a price and that it doesn't always make everything better. I think Sam came back in season 6 post-souling wiser and more attentive to what was really important now that he had it again. Instead of wallowing in his failure like he did in season 4, when he got Dean back this time, he appreciated him more and tried to show Dean that. He still tried to have faith in people - Castiel being the biggest example - and had learned to forgive more than seek revenge. When he had a tough choice to make in the finale - give up and take the easy way out, or take the hard way and be there for Dean - Sam sacrificed and did the hard thing to help Dean. In season 7, Sam listened to Dean and learned that it was okay to need Dean rather than having to prove himself. He accepted that he could rely on his relationship with Dean and make that "stone number one" to build on. When he argued with Dean, Sam compromised and listened to Dean. When Dean disappeared, he knew that he had to get Dean back. Sam was okay with needing Dean - he didn't feel the need to prove himself and break out of the little brother mold anymore. I thought it was a much more mature outlook on their relationship. The sad thing was that Dean was too far gone with loss, depression, and the need for revenge to really appreciate Sam's changes - although there were some bright spots like the end of "Plucky Pennywhistle..." - and that was too bad in a way.

 

... Which leads me to the bitterness part. I was hoping that this growth for Sam would continue and that Dean would also be able to get some more clarity and they'd be on the same page finally at the beginning of season 8, but nope. Instead Dean was given some clarity, but in order to keep up the manufactured "angst" between the brothers, all of the growth I saw in season 6.5 - 7 for Sam was taken away. Instead of hunting being the thing that kept Sam grounded and sane in season 7, suddenly he wanted a normal life again and in the process threw away his "stone one" and every other responsibility and went back to wallowing in failure and running from his problems in season 8. To say I was bitter about that is an understatement. The show spent a season and a half or more tearing Sam down, crescendoing in the season 4 finale, then 2 or 3 seasons building him back up with the season 6 finale and much of season 7 as the highlights for his character development (for me anyway) only to throw that all out the window with little to no explanation. They even went so far as to try to retcon some of the important character growth - like implying that Sam was holding a grudge about Amy, which made absolutely no sense in light of  what we saw before - to do it. And this time it barely took a half a season to destroy his character worse than they did in season 4. They almost had it done within two or three episodes, and finished off by about 8.

 

There aren't words to express how bitter I was about that. And I'm only now starting to feel like things are really getting back to "good" again concerning Sam, because mostly any growth Sam makes, they take it away again, so I'm unfortunately just waiting to cringe from whatever horrible thing they'll have Sam do next for the sake of "angst."

 

Mostly I miss season 6.5 and season 7 Sam and wish we had him back.

 

* (with a blip for Soulless Sam, who was interesting, but not what I'd call a likeable character for his good traits anyway.)

[amensisterfriend]

with a blip for Soulless Sam, who was interesting, but not what I'd call a likeable character for his good traits anyway

 

I swear that I don't mean this as a slam against Sam when I say that, aside from the Sam of S1 (and parts of S2-S3), Soulless Sam was my favorite incarnation of this character. I found him highly amusing and a whole lot more lively and fun. A very unpopular opinion, I realize :) 

 

Speaking of unpopular opinions...I love Bugs and Hook Man. And even many parts of Route 666. 

[Mcolleague]

I liked Sam most in Season 4. How's that for an unpopular opinion. I thought he was most interesting/unique/realistic as a character, and understood his choices every step of the way, I thought the demon blood stuff was by far the best written character arc for Sam. The mixture of arrogance and insecurity, the powerlessness and then having power, the need to prove himself, the shoehorned rationalizing - it was all fascinating stuff. No, he wasn't always sympathetic or even likable, but he was a good character, unique and psychologically complex. Unfortunately his redemption arc in Season 5 fell kinda flat, and the way they resolved all that amazing characterization buildup ended up being pretty contrived, but I still liked the character until Carver completely butchered him. This season is slightly better though, so maybe there's still hope. 

[AwesomO4000]

I swear that I don't mean this as a slam against Sam when I say that, aside from the Sam of S1 (and parts of S2-S3), Soulless Sam was my favorite incarnation of this character. I found him highly amusing and a whole lot more lively and fun. A very unpopular opinion, I realize :) 

 

Speaking of unpopular opinions...I love Bugs and Hook Man. And even many parts of Route 666. 

 

Oh I, too, enjoyed Soulless Sam for who he was, but I didn't think that he was "likeable" in the traditional sense - which was how I was interpreting "likeable" - so that was why my caveat of "likeable for his good traits (as in being good) anyway." It's sort of like Hannibal Lector, who is an interesting character and certainly entertaining, but I would not call him "likeable." And still not my favorite, but miles above season 8 Sam and even late season 4 Sam.

 

I liked Sam most in Season 4. How's that for an unpopular opinion. I thought he was most interesting/unique/realistic as a character, and understood his choices every step of the way, I thought the demon blood stuff was by far the best written character arc for Sam. The mixture of arrogance and insecurity, the powerlessness and then having power, the need to prove himself, the shoehorned rationalizing - it was all fascinating stuff. No, he wasn't always sympathetic or even likable, but he was a good character, unique and psychologically complex. Unfortunately his redemption arc in Season 5 fell kinda flat, and the way they resolved all that amazing characterization buildup ended up being pretty contrived, but I still liked the character until Carver completely butchered him. This season is slightly better though, so maybe there's still hope. 

 

I actually agree with you on a lot of this, including not really disliking Sam a lot until Carver got a hold of him, but I can only go so far with liking season 4 Sam's characterization. I agree with you that Sam in much of season 4 was real, and his falling apart was believable - especially with the shove towards the cliff that "Mystery Spot" gave him - and I was good with it and nodding along... until the stupidity of "Chris Angel is a Douchebag" when I was going "Wait what? That makes no sense," and then "Sex and Violence" when they lost me quite a bit with the completely unnecessary venom they had Sam spew for no real reason except to severely damage his character. "Head of a Pin" was a little better - and that was the explanation they should have given in "Sex and Violence" - but a lot of damage was already done for me.

 

And unfortunately for me they took the interesting characterization build up they had going and pushed it too far. I think maybe they realized it, but either weren't sure how to fix it or were enjoying the "angst" and bringing Sam down charcater-wise, so they didn't bother. That and trying to add one too many complexities. The "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old" made no sense with the rest. It didn't even make sense with Sam's reasoning from the episode the week before when Sam supposedly realized that his wanting a "normal life" had been the wrong way to go and didn't make him happy. And based on what I was seeing until then - and even what happened later - Sam wasn't even planning on getting "older," it didn't fit with his revenge or control motivation, and it seemed to come out of left field. And considering that it was supposed to be an important turning point, it was disappointing that they seemed to just pull it out of nowhere. So for me, they were doing well and had made an interesting and complex character... and then they lost control of it at the half way mark and just let oit go instead of reigning it in.

 

Fortunately for me, I was good with Sam's redemption in season 5, and the end of season 6 cemented it for me, so I was better than good... until season 8 anyway.

[Aeryn13]

I was fine with Sam in Season 4, not in the "oh so likeable" way but actually because everything that bugged me about the character was SO exaggerated here, I was sure it could only lead to character growth. And well, it is always darkest before dawn so I didn`t mind that I wanted to axe-murder him often during the Season. That happens sometimes even with my favourite characters.

 

Then Season 5 and the anti-redemption of doom happened. Where apparently everything that ever put me off was so exaggerated in Season 4 because Season 5 told me those were his very best traits. And the fault was with everyone else, mainly Dean, for not seeing it and kissing his feet for it. Capped off with the Sue-save and I pretty much hated everything about it. The character never recovered from that IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

I've never had a problem with the character of Sam--or Dean for that matter--I didn't always like what he was doing, but that's what makes for interesting characters, IMO. I do enjoy Sam more in the early seasons. He had more life back then, but then I prefer Dean in those seasons too and for much the same reasons. Both Sam and Dean feel more like shells of their early lively selves in the last few years.

 

And, I enjoyed Soulless Sam, immensely, once he was outted as such and stopped trying to keep up the pretenses. It didn't always make sense, but I found it shook things up a bit and gave both Jared and Jensen something new to do with their characters and added a freshness to some of their scenes. Once Sam got his soul back, they went back to the same old patterns and ruts--which are enjoyable enough to keep me watching, so I was ok with it--but also knew they couldn't keep up the Soulless Sam gag much longer without me getting totally bored with it. So yeah, I didn't mind that version of Not Sam.

[Aeryn13]

Then I guess my unpopular opinion is that I hated Soulless Sam. For one, the concept was once again being "what is wrong with Sam/all about Sam" which came with the expected "Dean who" counterpart. Secondly, it was like some porn pimping of how badass and how much of a sex machine he was that even the hooker forgot to ask for pay. Comparatively, Dean became a mocked and belittled Deansel in distress. Thirdly, soulless Sam was all over the place. He was scary, no funny, no had no clue about reading people, no he was totally perceptive. No internal consistency whatsoever.

 

And if all that wasn`t bad enough, he was like another version of Smug!Sam whom I already had with demon blood. Smug is a hard thing to play and still get me to like a character, I mean House and Sherlock manage but everyone acknowledges that. But Jared is seriously not someone who can play smug in any way I can even stomach. When it creeps through, it is bad enough but when it is actually supposed to be in a scene on some level? I absolutely hate it, not in a love-to-hate but can`t-stand-watching-hate.

 

I also felt bad for Jensen because he was onscreen a lot, therefore obviously had long shooting hours, but fucking shit-all to do as a character. He didn`t need to be that entire first half of the Season and it would have been a mercy.

 

So, first half of Season 6? Is slightly better than the second half of Season 8 but still sucks complete ass.  

 

[amensisterfriend]

I guess my UO is that I'm always surprised by the bitter complaining about Dean's characterization. I mean, yes, at this point in the series, every character has been horribly and/or inconsistently portrayed at points, and as DittyDot and I commented on, both main characters were certainly more lively, spirited and even admirable at the very beginning of the series. But Dean, IMO, has always been granted about 99% of the positive traits given to the brothers. He's like the classic hero---courageous, tough, resourceful, funny, endearingly cocky yet vulnerable, righteous, intensely loyal, a studly ladies' man who's always ready with a clever quip and a devil-may-care grin, etc. He drinks too much, but that's often presented more like another indication of how gritty and manly-man-ish he is rather than a genuine issue. And the whole 'he doesn't have the self-esteem to acknowledge just how amazing he is!' thing is kind of a lame non-flaw flaw, IMO, like when you tell job interviewers that your weakness is that you work too darn hard and care too much.

 

And I don't say any of this snarkily, because I like and often even admire Dean a lot. I just don't get the 'popular' notion that he's been screwed by the writers, when, in contrast to the lengthy but not even comprehensive list of laudable, heroic traits given to Dean above, Sam's salient characteristics (when he's actually given any!) are that he's an arrogant, sulky, whiny, selfish, bitter, angry killjoy who's forever screwing up and needing his righteous big brother to save him from his own mistakes. The few strengths he was ever given proved moot---sure, he was supposed to be 'book smart', but that didn't translate too well, if at all, to his post-Stanford life. He was initially presented as empathetic and sensitive, but that was quickly revealed to be  mostly deliberate manipulation and simply his way of getting people to give them information. Some might say his independence and determination to forge his own path by leaving for Stanford was positive, but the show has far more consistently depicted it as indicative of Sam's excessive pride, selfishness and lack of familial loyalty. Past S1 and maybe parts of S2 and S3, poor Sam has been given almost no positive traits at all, IMO...and even the show's hairstylists seem to hate him! ;)   

Edited November 21, 2014 by amensisterfriend