S02.E08: Women's Work

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, kieyra said:

General thought ...

I’ve noticed that both here and on Reddit, the analysis of the world-building flaws seems to overtake every single thread. I understand some of them, although a HUGE proportion (especially among younger posters) clearly come from a place of ignorance regarding current and historical atrocities. (I can’t tell you how many times I saw threads on Reddit along the lines of “but the colonies make no sense, why not use a bulldozer”. People are losing awareness of the “extermination through labor” camps during the Holocaust, for example.) I think some of the rest of it is a natural outcome of a huge glut of dystopian fiction, plus other shows with incredibly complex world building (like GoT). It seems like it might be worth remembering that this book was written decades ago, before there was, for example, a whole internet full of people ready to pick apart every stupid mistake the survivors make in your average zombie dystopia. 

(I also think there’s a strong undercurrent of denial. “The Gilead approach to the fertility crisis makes no sense.” But that assumes that Gilead is about the fertility crisis, rather than the crisis itself having been merely a convenient opportunity for a fascist, radical group to take control. Which of course no one wants to believe could happen in This Day and Age.)

Anyway, I wonder if a dedicated thread for this subject might help people work out their frustrations. 

It’s also possible that a show like this is extremely frightening on a very visceral level, and my brain is literally trying to fight that fear anyway it can. It hits really close to home sometimes and maybe I’m trying to find ways to tell myself that it’s literally impossible for Gilead to ever happen? ?‍♀️

[AnswersWanted]

48 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

Let’s not be hypocritical here: men and women.  This is what happens when constraints and consequences on how we treat others are removed.  I remember an article I read by journalist covering the Bosnian war way back when.  He said:  if you put half the population of any small town in a stadium and then tell the other half they could go in and do anything they wanted to them with no consequences, what do you think would happen?  It’s a very disturbing question and I don’t believe only men would take advantage of a situation like that.  Women are just as capable of unspeakable cruelties.

I also think Fred has been “evolving” as the situation goes along.  I don’t think he was this much of a bastard (especially towards Serena) as he is now.  He came across as a bit of a milquetoast in the beginning, quite willing to let her fight the battles but probably resenting her at the same time.  Now he realizes the power has indeed swung over to him and he is taking advantage of it.  This is why I don’t believe he’d ever hit her physically before.  The ironic thing was that the guy Serena had arrested under Fted’s supposed orders was trying to take him down by making a power grab for his position.  Serena stopped it with Nick and June’s help.  Fred is an ungrateful bastard on top of everything else.

BTW, something that occurred to me was to wonder what happens to wives who become widows?  Do they get to keep their comfy house and servants?  What if they have a child by a handmaid?  Do they keep them too or are they ushered out somewhere to make room for a new Commander and family?

 

 

I was not the source of that quote you replied to, the other poster above me was. I replied to them. 

 

28 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Your statement above reminded me of the wife that said she had a headache and to forgo the ceremony to Emily.  She got it that they were all trapped and could only deal the only way she knew how.

If June didn't have the rose in her room, I don't think that Fred would have came down as hard on SJ.  BTW - where the hell did he get that amount of strength to beat the shit out of SJ but looks like he will topple over any second when he's walking.

 

I remember that too and it is something that I do think proves that Serena, while she is just as caged as any female, she is not even bothering really or trying to make life easier on those that she actually can impact on a daily basis.

She could show an ounce of compassion for what they’re going through because technically they’re all going through the same hell on earth, she chooses not to, not only is she directly complicit but she takes advantage of her role whenever she can, and for that I will always hold her absolutely accountable just as I do Fred or the other commanders.

Fred is the jealous type looks like, only he can “make nice “ with the handmaid. He is so revolting. 

 You just reminded me of another thing that makes me think that this was not the first time, Fred knew what he was doing. He seemed to be relying on training. 

It is not easy to strike that hard and accurately, and I know because I have friends in certain lifestyles who practice the exact same play, except of course for them it is play and always 100% consensual.

That was not an undertrained act on his part, it was like a choreographed dance for the both of them,

There was the way that Serena knew to bend over and present her backside just so, the way she did not resist or even move her body out of place which takes learning when you are getting that amount of force and pain right after, and the way that Fred was swinging that belt in perfect time, unless they just internally knew what to do they had done it before. 

 

Quote

Does Eden even know how to read? Do girls go to school in Gilead? Probably not.

 

 There is no confirmation about whether she can or can’t, she would’ve been alive and of school age before Gilead took over and made teaching girls illegal so there’s a chance. 

As for current day Gilead, no, no female is allowed schooling of any sort, women are not even allowed to read or write.

Their thinking is that this will keep women from getting too big for their britches and start craving things that are bad for their delicate dispositions like power or control or freedom again. 

Girls are to take care of the home and, if they’re baby lottery lucky, raise children, that’s pretty much it. They may also do menial tasks from time to time but nothing very substantial.

Edited June 11, 2018 by AnswersWanted

[NoSpam]

36 minutes ago, kieyra said:

People are losing awareness of the “extermination through labor” camps during the Holocaust, for example.) I think some of the rest of it is a natural outcome of a huge glut of dystopian fiction, plus other shows with incredibly complex world building (like GoT). It seems like it might be worth remembering that this book was written decades ago, before there was, for example, a whole internet full of people ready to pick apart every stupid mistake the survivors make in your average zombie dystopia. 

(I also think there’s a strong undercurrent of denial. “The Gilead approach to the fertility crisis makes no sense.” But that assumes that Gilead is about the fertility crisis, rather than the crisis itself having been merely a convenient opportunity for a fascist, radical group to take control. Which of course no one wants to believe could happen in This Day and Age, Or At Least Not In My Country.)

 

Lack of knowledge about the Holocaust among younger people makes me incredibly sad. Forced labor is done not because it's efficient, but because it's *mean*. It's meant to degrade and subjugate. Just the like Handmaids are treated poorly as punishment for their sins against Gilead. It's not about them having the precious babies, it's about punishment, and it's a lesson to the wives and Marthas and econowives not to step out of line.

Regarding the world building, it made sense in the book because the nameless handmaid who narrated was the only point-of-view character we had. She didn't know all the details, so we didn't mind not knowing them, either. It isn't realistic to do a single POV with a TV show, so they are trying to fill in the backstory, and IMO doing a lousy job, which is where viewer frustrations are coming from.

 

TL;DR:  The book made sense, but the series doesn't.

[NoSpam]

About Eden. If she'd read the letters, she'd have put them back where she found them, not left them lying out. But now that Nick yelled at her about them, I'm sure she's really curious.

Eden is the most dangerous character to the others, IMO, because she is a true believer. Speculation:

Spoiler

 

She doesn't understand the Waterfords' games: Serena's secret drinking of hard liquor, Fred's penchant for letting the Handmaid read and seeing her outside of the ceremony. And now that Pryce is gone, Nick doesn't have protection from accusations. She could turn them all in, and the more they treat her like a child the more dangerous she gets. She's going to ask someone why the Waterfords get to break the rules, and that will be the end of them.

 

I'm shocked that Waterford is taking Nick to Canada. You'd think there would be people defecting from Gilead every chance they got; surprised he'd take an underling along.

[Emily Thrace]

On 2018-06-07 at 2:11 AM, Callaphera said:

This is something I've considered. And it definitely puts a pin in my "Fuck you, Nick" balloon but it would fit with Eden's character. It's honestly not something I can argue for or against until we get some sort of hint one way or the other.

I read back through the wiki page on Nick and there doesn't seem to be any concrete information on whether he was a longtime member of Mayday or whether he joined up/availed himself of their services only to get June out of there, so it definitely seems up in the air (if I'm wrong, please let me know. I know the book forward and backwards but sometimes get confused between the two). The way it came across to me was that it was simply to get June out of Gilead with their baby. And it could be the fault of the actor, the writers, or the director(s) that it seems to me more like he wants to play house with June in the Boston Globe bits ("Nah, it's cool, baby. You can live here for the rest of your life with the baby. I can come by on weekends and bring you some coffee that I pinched from Rita. It's all good!") but wasn't as concerned about getting her out of there until she really pushed the issue. 

I'm not saying that Nick should singlehandedly take down Gilead, that would be unrealistic as hell. But he doesn't seem to have any complaints about the society or how it operates or how it treats women and other religions, etc., except when it came to June. And only June. He doesn't want Eden as a wife, he complains about her, but does he have any sympathy for the young girl who only knows that she is supposed to cleave to her husband and bear his children? 

He chose to work with the Sons of Jacob. He chose to stay rather than try to escape to Canada or elsewhere when Gilead was forming. Eden just wants to choose some damned fabric for her curtains. He chose to help the society that made Eden into what she is, rather than what she should be: a teenage girl who has the right to choose for herself. For one brief shining moment, he seemed like he was being nice when he chose yellow but then he turned into Looming McLoomerson with bonus furious face and Eden was almost cowering in fear. Which again: way to let her know that the bundle is hella suspicious. 

It's weird because I was kind of liking the little temporary power trio of June, Mrs. Waterford, and Nick working together in the last episode. And then he had to go and be a dick to Eden and ruin it again. 

 

Its possible he stayed because he was already a double agent. He could have initially been going along with  the sons of Jacob and them realized what they were about and turned double agent ages ago. Before they even moved against the government. He could be a Canadian spy for all we know. I don't think we know enough about why Nick stayed to judge hom for it yet. We haven't heard anything about his family maybe he stayed because his mother was dying.

He got pissed at Eden because she went through his stuff that's pretty normal human behavior. Especially since her snooping could get him killed. I also think some of his anger in that scene was what was building for days about the fact hes in an incredibly dangerous situation and she is making it harder. He's not even pissed at her as much as the position she is putting him in.

I do think he had to scare a bit. If he hadn't she might have kept digging. As twisted as it is Nick needs Eden to be afraid of him. That way she won't ask so many questions.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Emily Thrace

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Because that woman had not broke any of Gilead’s laws (before it was established). Women who had committed adultery, had abortions, gotten divorced, were in same sex relationships etc who were also deemed to be fertile are serving as handmaids as PUNISHMENT for their sinful lives. That’s why the Eco-Wife stated that being a Handmaid was what her peer group was threatened with if the stepped out of line/rebelled/broke laws. 

Exactly, and it's been said many, many times in multiple threads.

Now, could the men make shit up and thus condemn someone to be a handmaid?  Sure, but they haven't so far.  Some are actually quite devout about making a pure society that God will smile on and then undo the fertility curse because Gilead has proven worthy.

2 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

Well if that’s true then that would encompass 99 percent of the fertile female population lol.  I mean the divorce rate is sky high, I believe that there are now more people living together than people marrying and who the heck doesn’t use birth control (apart from reckless teens)?  However, back when Fed and the other commanders were concocting the handmaid acheme in the car, I don’t recall them saying anything about only “fallen” women being taken as handmaids. But maybe my memory is faulty.

It is true. 

Yes, your memory is faulty here.  http://the-handmaids-tale.wikia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Gilead 

That link can be useful.
 

Quote

 

Handmaid

Handmaids are a class of women in the Republic of Gilead. They are perhaps the most important - but also the most oppressed - class of women in Gilead, as they are tasked with breeding and thus supplying Gilead with more children. Fertile women who in some way break the laws of Gilead are forced to become Handmaids - otherwise, they will be sent to the Colonies, where they will almost certainly die. They are assigned to the homes of Commanders and sometimes Angels, where their task is get pregnant by the men, so as to provide them and their Wives (if she is incapable of conceiving) with a child. The novel's main protagonist, Offred, is a Handmaid, as are a few of the secondary characters.

 

Much more at that link.
 

Quote

 

Econowife

Econowives are a class of women in the Republic of Gilead. Aside from Unwomen, they are some of the lowest ranking members of Gileadean society. Econowives are the wives of poor or low ranking men, such as Guardians. They are forced to fulfill the roles of Martha (servant), Wife and, if they are fertile, Handmaid. In the TV Series, the class is expanded to include low-ranking men and is thus titled Econopeople.

---

In addition to having to work very hard, Econowives, like every other woman in Gilead, are forced to submit to their husbands' authority and have no power. They cannot hold paid jobs or be educated. They have a somewhat hostile, envious, and resentful view of Handmaids, seemingly looking down on them for believing they "have it easy," or labeling them as "sluts".

The television series alters this somewhat, revealing in Offred's conversation with an Econowife that the prospect of becoming a Handmaid is considered an ever-preset threat. Further, Econopeople are expected to make routine professions of faith under state-sanctioned armed observation[1]. Like the rest of Gilead society, the Econopeople (both male and female) are under constant surveillance by the Guardians and The Eyes.

In addition, Econopeople of both genders have no rights or liberties whatsoever and both genders face severe and brutal punishments from the authorities if they violate Gilead's draconian laws.

 

That link also has descriptions, both book or show of Gilead proper, other classes of people, rules, etc.

[NoSpam]

On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 1:53 AM, Earlwoode said:

There’s a lot in this show that doesn’t make sense starting with the way they treat the handmaids.  They are supposed to be a rare and precious asset and, by rights, should be the most pampered members of society.

[snip]

Another big problem the fact that Serena just does not seem like the religious fanatic you would expect her to be.  We get no sense of her piety; she never prays; she never calls on God while on her own like you would expect a genuinely pious and religious woman to do (like Eden for example).  She just seems icy and intellectual and to pay lip service to all this Puritan, radical religion thing.

It's not about fertility, really. It's about subjugation of women. The handmade system was put in place to give the fertile women to the powerful men -- not to the most likely to be fertile men.

Serena Joy was a televangelist in the book, who are not known to be the most pious people. Lip service is what a lot of the powerful people in Gilead are giving to their faith. The hypocrisy of the pious knows no bounds.

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

A woman can't be a handmaid unless she's sinned or broken Gilead's laws, even if that happened BEFORE they were Gilead's laws such as divorce, use of birth control, having an abortion, gender traitors, etc.

Don't forget that women are punished also for the crimes of their husbands. So if an econo-husband steps out of line, his wife will be re-assigned as a handmaid, and he'll end up on the wall.

[Umbelina]

53 minutes ago, NoSpam said:

Don't forget that women are punished also for the crimes of their husbands. So if an econo-husband steps out of line, his wife will be re-assigned as a handmaid, and he'll end up on the wall.

I wonder if that would extend to Wives too, being punished for their husband's sins?  I think that's a big reason why Serena Joy hasn't turned in her husband, what would happen to her?  Also, she's breaking a lot of rules herself now, so it's a draw.  Writing, forging orders to get the female doctor into the hospital, covering up for Fred and Jezebel's, and the reason for the former Handmaid's suicide.

They are all living in a burning house.

[Earlwoode]

8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

That’s why it’s totally asinine- I agree. 

For further details I’d recommend the Book vs Show thread. 

The problem is those of us who haven’t read the book get a totally different vibe from the series.  I think a lot of people commenting are book readers and that makes for a confusing (if interesting) conversation.

[Earlwoode]

8 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

ere the hell did he get that amount of strength to beat the shit out of SJ but looks like he will topple over any second when he's walking.

Another asinine scene where they expect us to suspend belief.  One minute he is tottering up the steps, the next he’s swinging powerfully while not even grabbing his cane.  Makes you roll your eyes.

[Earlwoode]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, your memory is faulty here.  http://the-handmaids-tale.wikia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Gilead 

That link can be useful.

Problem is I only watch the show - never looked it up on Wikipedia or read the book. I’ve also not read every single thread that discusses this either so sorry  if I missed it being discussed “many, many times before”.  I’m pointing out the things I find silly or unbelievable only from the context of the series.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Earlwoode

[Earlwoode]

2 hours ago, NoSpam said:

It's not about fertility, really. It's about subjugation of women. The handmade system was put in place to give the fertile women to the powerful men -- not to the most likely to be fertile men.

Serena Joy was a televangelist in the book, who are not known to be the most pious people. Lip service is what a lot of the powerful people in Gilead are giving to their faith. The hypocrisy of the pious knows no bounds.

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

A woman can't be a handmaid unless she's sinned or broken Gilead's laws, even if that happened BEFORE they were Gilead's laws such as divorce, use of birth control, having an abortion, gender traitors, etc.

 

Don't forget that women are punished also for the crimes of their husbands. So if an econo-husband steps out of line, his wife will be re-assigned as a handmaid, and he'll end up on the wall.

The problem is that most of that is not made clear in the series.  As I said, there is only one scene (in the car) where the Commanders are setting up the handmaid’s scheme and most of that is not discussed. So understandably, many of us are confused as to what is going on.  I still say gouging out eyes, cutting off and burning limbs is not conducive to pregnancy so how idiotic are these people?  More to the point, how unbelievable and unrealistic is this society?    

Edited June 11, 2018 by Earlwoode

[Earlwoode]

9 hours ago, kieyra said:

Which of course no one wants to believe could happen in This Day and Age, Or At Least Not In My Country.)

You can’t have a coup without the support of the armed forces (believe me, I known because I’ve been through one).  How many of contemporary American armed forces would support a coup where people are killed and hanged without due process of law, your beloved Constitution is suspended and soldiers are willing to shoot down unarmed women in the street?  Coups are believable in countries with very weak (or non existent) democracies.  They are not credible in countries with very strong traditions of democracy.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

The problem is those of us who haven’t read the book get a totally different vibe from the series.  I think a lot of people commenting are book readers and that makes for a confusing (if interesting) conversation.

The show has made it clear, but it's the kind of show where you really have to pay attention to catch it.  Remember the housemaid's talking about their various "sins?"  A couple said "gender traitor" and we know, since Aunt Lydia has said it dozens of times, that the Handmaids are considered sinners, and this is their glorious chance at redemption.  June married a divorced man, others had records of abortion, one had been a prostitute, (she was all for Gilead at first, later I think she was the suicide bomber) etc.

2 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

Problem is I only watch the show - never looked it up on Wikipedia or read the book. I’ve also not read every single thread that discusses this either so sorry  if I missed it being discussed “many, many times before”.  I’m pointing out the things I find silly or unbelievable only from the context of the series.

 

June's voice overs have explained quite a bit, as did her scenes with Moira and Emily, and certainly Aunt Lydia, and the flashbacks have as well as the scenes in the Boston Globe where June pieces it all together. 

1 hour ago, Earlwoode said:

You can’t have a coup without the support of the armed forces (believe me, I known because I’ve been through one).  How many of contemporary American armed forces would support a coup where people are killed and hanged without due process of law, your beloved Constitution is suspended and soldiers are willing to shoot down unarmed women in the street?  Coups are believable in countries with very weak (or non existent) democracies.  They are not credible in countries with very strong traditions of democracy.

The armed forces DID support it.  This has also been on the show, they killed all of the congress which was blamed on an Islamic attack, then they killed everyone in the White House with a bomb, including advisors, the president, vice president, etc.  Some of the current Commanders were Generals and others in charge of the Armed Forces.  Martial Law was also explained on the show, immediately declared after all the elected leaders were killed. 

There were numerous protests, as we saw several times, June's mother for example, but those all ended when they turned the machine guns on the protesters. 

This was carefully planned and coordinated by a large group, and the rah rah USA banding together since we'd been attacked by Muslims was enough to let one liberty after another slide.  In addition, as shown by the colonies, and also characters talking about it on the show, the country was already suffering from climate changes, and nuclear power plant meltdowns or accidents from earthquakes.  Pesticides and Herbicides had caused havoc as well with crop production, and ALL of those things were blamed for the increasing and devastatingly low birth rates of healthy babies, even when a baby was born, there were far more deformities, we've seen the Handmaids talk about the Unbabies or Shredders on the show as well.

They imprisoned or killed anyone strong enough to stand up against them, again we see it on the show with people being hanged, and certainly the execution of all the reporters and staff at the Boston Globe.  They hated scientists and doctors, and killed most of them as well as anyone who disagreed with them politically.

Quote

Unbaby, or shredder, is the term used in the Republic of Gilead to describe infants that are suffering from birth defects or physical deformations. These die shortly after birth due to their defects. They are usually taken away to be disposed of. It's unknown what is done with Unbabies, though given that they are sometimes referred to as 'shredders', it is hinted that this could be the way they are disposed. http://the-handmaids-tale.wikia.com/wiki/Unbaby

There are really only a very few things from the book that were either changed

Spoiler

black people were banished to raise crops in those colonies, racism was severe because babies of color were still being born in 3rd world countries and Gilead was partially founded to save the white race,

or haven't been mentioned yet,

Spoiler

the epilogue at the end of the book, which gives some clues as to the future. 

Everything else in the book has been on the screen.  We've actually seen more on the show than in the book, since the book was first person, and we only knew what June knew or could observe.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Umbelina

[Earlwoode]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

This was carefully planned and coordinated by a large group, and the rah rah USA banding together since we'd been attacked by Muslims was enough to let one liberty after another slide

Oh I wasn’t talking about the coup in the book/series. I was responding to a poster who was saying young people think this could not happen in their country.  IMO, it would be very difficult for this to happen in the US. And if it did, it would only affect a small area.  Your country is far too big and diverse for anyone to take over without the support of the armed forces.  And I don’t believe the AF would respond as one to a fascist coup by supporting it.  I know a coup happened in the book/series but that scenario is about as believable as a zombie apocalypse IMO, lol.

[greekmom]

Two things that I also observed that I forgot to post.

1.       That the wive’s underclothes are also blue and the panties were quite cheeky.  While a handmaid has to wear undergarments that are loose and free flowing (think 1800’s); wive’s stuff is pretty modern and somewhat sexy. 

2.       Both Aunt Lydia and June are calling Janine by her first name even though she is assigned to another commander but June is still Offred.

[Umbelina]

30 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

Oh I wasn’t talking about the coup in the book/series. I was responding to a poster who was saying young people think this could not happen in their country.  IMO, it would be very difficult for this to happen in the US. And if it did, it would only affect a small area.  Your country is far too big and diverse for anyone to take over without the support of the armed forces.  And I don’t believe the AF would respond as one to a fascist coup by supporting it.  I know a coup happened in the book/series but that scenario is about as believable as a zombie apocalypse IMO, lol.

As I said, some military leaders were involved, and aside from that, soldiers generally follow orders.  Historically, any country can fail, or at the very least drastically change. 

I wish I had your faith that something like this couldn't happen in the USA, but?  I don't.  Maybe not exactly this, but something equally dreadful could happen anywhere.  Atwood took everything from history, none of this is really made up, and also a bit from the future since she was aware of Global Warming way back in the eighties when this was first written. 

The ONLY thing she added was that currency was no longer used, so the women's money could be wiped out with a flip of the switch that closed all female debit accounts.

Just now, greekmom said:

2.       Both Aunt Lydia and June are calling Janine by her first name even though she is assigned to another commander but June is still Offred.

I think they both know that Janine could flip at any moment, so they used her name, and allowed her to call the baby the name she gave her.

The odd thing is, this episode, Janine seemed like any "normal" woman of today, the only thing at all crazy about her was that she wasn't towing Gilead's lines, or using their nonsense and allowed conversation.  "May the force be with you."

Yes, it's crazy in the sense that it could get her killed, but she's actually seemed to find a real faith that she won't be, that things will be OK.

[dleighg]

23 minutes ago, greekmom said:

While a handmaid has to wear undergarments that are loose and free flowing (think 1800’s); wive’s stuff is pretty modern and somewhat sexy. 

Yeah the handmaid's undergarments are *seriously* unsexy!

[zobot81]

I know it's crazy, but I binged the series up to episode S2 E8 over the weekend.  Needless to say, I'm feeling a bit stunned, as if my soul was sucked out of my body over the span of two days.

That being said...

This show is a lot to unpack.  So, I'll focus on how I feel about Fred, after watching somewhere in the range of 18 hours worth of television that prominently features him:

I don't "hate" the Waterfords.  I've never "hated" Fred, not even during this episode.  In fact, he seems more pathetic and insecure than ever before.  In my opinion, little Joey Fiennes has carried the character stiffly, formally, even arrogantly up until this episode, but almost never with outright cruelty.  Obviously, beating Serena sheds new light on Fred, but I think it serves to amplify his struggle to regain power over his life -- a giant project and his life were nearly destroyed by a single act.  We'd all love it if this traumatic event woke him the fuck up to the morally impoverished world he has built, but instead, it drives him deeper into self-pity and the need to regain control.

Hence, the beating.

But we all know who really wears the dress in that house.

Edited June 11, 2018 by zobot81

[Pondlass1]

All I can think is how boring life must be for all of them.  Fred sits at a desk in a darkened office day and night. The armed guards on the street just walk about or stand around hugging a gun. The 16 yr old wife spends her days in a tiny dark apartment. Handmaids don't seem to do much either but at least they walk to a 'store'.  The house they're all in is dark, dreary and creaky.  It's all so boring and depressing.  I think the boredom would be the worst of all. I'd be bored out of my mind.  I feel  bad for wild animals in cages or compounds at the zoo -they're fed and looked after, but it's a life that steals the soul.  Everyone needs stimulation and affection.  Gilead can never work for long.

I wonder what will happen with the baby?  Surely she won't be given back?   Would Serena be given charge?

[SourK]

Multi-quote betrayed me, so I have to go by memory.

Because this airs a few days sooner in the US than it does in Canada, I've started deliberately reading spoilers for each episode so that I am not blindsided and traumatized by whatever happens. I'm really, really glad for that this week.

Serena isn't a very good person, but I don't think that even bad people deserve to be beaten or tortured, so there's no part of me that's happy about any of this. I do wonder how much she actually knows about the torture that goes on in the Red Center, or if she's just happily ignorant about it. Either way, her situation sucks, and as much as I wish she'd be a nicer person, we saw this week that the reward for being a nice person in Gilead is that you get punished. :(

Re: Nick and Eden: They are also in a bad situation. I don't trust Nick, personally, and I still think he's the one who sold June out when she was trying to escape, but there is kind of no good way to be married to a fifteen year old in a dictatorship that controls your relationships, so he's doing the best he can. I got a vibe from him this episode that was kind of like an older brother who doesn't like his younger sister but is trying to be nice to her because he knows he's the adult in the relationship and it's not her fault that she's annoying. That's maybe the best we can hope for?

Finally, because June going back to Fred was prefaced by her speech about how she now understands that there's no way to live in this world peacefully, I'm hoping she's going to kill him. Fingers crossed.

[dleighg]

1 minute ago, SourK said:

Finally, because June going back to Fred was prefaced by her speech about how she now understands that there's no way to live in this world peacefully, I'm hoping she's going to kill him. Fingers crossed.

My husband and I discussed this and we both think (hope) that she's just playing him by pretending to be sorry and subservient. Hadn't thought what you are hoping though. Sounds great to me!

[Salad]

Hi, i'm sorry if this has been said before and i did'nt see it, but i was thinking : isn't it weird that they take janine and emily back and more importantly let janine touch charlotte considering she just came back from the Colonies and is supposed to have been exposed to radioactivity ? Even being close to June might put her in danger regarding her pregnancy. I was discussing it with my stepmom and she was saying, is there any radioactivity at all ? Maybe that's what they say to people in Gilead (but then why would teeth fall and all that)

So yeah i just wanted to know what you guys think about this whole Janine thing ! 

[chocolatine]

23 minutes ago, Salad said:

Hi, i'm sorry if this has been said before and i did'nt see it, but i was thinking : isn't it weird that they take janine and emily back and more importantly let janine touch charlotte considering she just came back from the Colonies and is supposed to have been exposed to radioactivity ? Even being close to June might put her in danger regarding her pregnancy. I was discussing it with my stepmom and she was saying, is there any radioactivity at all ? Maybe that's what they say to people in Gilead (but then why would teeth fall and all that)

Yes, several posters here have said that it's weird. The explanation seems to be that after 31 Handmaids died in the bombing, Gilead was so desperate that they brought a bunch of them back from the colonies.

As for teeth falling out, that can also happen from malnutrition. I'm not sure about radiation exposure, but I'm pretty certain there was some kind of serious environmental pollution going on in the colony where Emily and Janine had been. And even if there was radiation, I don't think that can be transmitted through touching someone who hadn't been exposed. It damages the DNA of the people who've been directly exposed, which means there's a high risk for birth defects for any future children they may have. It's not like a virus.

Edited June 11, 2018 by chocolatine

[Earlwoode]

14 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

As for teeth falling out, that can also happen from malnutrition. I'm not sure about radiation exposure, but I'm pretty certain there was some kind of serious environmental pollution going on in the colony where Emily and Janine had been

I think they were definitely signaling radiation.  The overseers wear gas masks, the woman who got “married” and dies had sores all over her face, the teeth falling out all definitely signals radiation.  Perhaps this was one of the supposed nuclear power plant accidents? Another unbelievable scenario considering that hundreds of miles around Chernobyl have been evacuated as they are so afraid of the radiation.  Even for the overseers it would be a death sentence.

[mamadrama]

32 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Yes, several posters here have said that it's weird. The explanation seems to be that after 31 Handmaids died in the bombing, Gilead was so desperate that they brought a bunch of them back from the colonies.

As for teeth falling out, that can also happen from malnutrition. I'm not sure about radiation exposure, but I'm pretty certain there was some kind of serious environmental pollution going on in the colony where Emily and Janine had been. And even if there was radiation, I don't think that can be transmitted through touching someone who hadn't been exposed. It damages the DNA of the people who've been directly exposed, which means there's a high risk for birth defects for any future children they may have. It's not like a virus.

I just re-watched the 80's movie THE DAY AFTER. At one of the town meetings, the guy in charge was telling the local farmers to dig up about 2 feet of soil to get to the "good", non-radiation exposed soil underneath. It reminded me THT and the Colonies. The townspeople even had the same questions that we've had. What are they meant to do with all that soil, make a big pile? Then what? How do they know that they've dug enough up? Some people have hundreds of acres, how are they meant to dig all of that up and then what are they meant to do with all that dirt?

It was interesting. 

[chocolatine]

4 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

The overseers wear gas masks, the woman who got “married” and dies had sores all over her face, the teeth falling out all definitely signals radiation.

None of those are "definitely signals of radiation". Gas masks don't do anything to protect against radiation exposure. Sores and teeth falling out can be caused by a multitude of things: malnutrition, unclean water, inadequate hygiene, etc. I'm not saying that there definitely wasn't radiation exposure in that particular colony, we just don't have enough information to say that there definitely was. There are many kinds of pollution that aren't caused by radiation.

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I wonder what will happen with the baby?  Surely she won't be given back?   Would Serena be given charge?

That baby, Charlotte/Angela is actually the biological child of the Commander with the cold wife, so I can't see too many ways that it's "given away" to someone else. The Commander lost a hand before though, because he was having an affair with Janine and promising her that he was going to marry her, so who knows?

I wonder what will happen?  They certainly can't put Janine back in that house to care for Charlotte/Angela.  The wife wouldn't stand for it, and I'm pretty sure someone would consider that tempting the Commander as well.  I suppose they could suggest they give the baby to another family.  After all, that dude certainly doesn't want to be on Gilead's bad side again.  Now, you've got me curious.

[Earlwoode]

8 hours ago, greekmom said:

That the wive’s underclothes are also blue and the panties were quite cheeky

 On my TV screen, everything Serena and the wives wear is green.  Why do people keep saying they wear blue?  And no, I don’t have an old set, it’s brand new smart TV.  I also noticed the difference between the Handmaid’s underwear and Serena’s normal bra and panties. Why is that, I wonder?  What does Nick’s wife wear (can’t remember her name)?

[dleighg]

5 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

What does Nick’s wife wear (can’t remember her name)?

(Eden) Do you mean under her clothes or her regular clothes? Under, we never saw, 'cause of the sheet. Her regular clothes I did wonder about, since IIRC she was not wearing one of the "uniforms" we've seen. Just a sort of non-descript skirt and top. Maybe it's an Econowife uniform.

[Ashforth]

12 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

The problem is those of us who haven’t read the book get a totally different vibe from the series.  I think a lot of people commenting are book readers and that makes for a confusing (if interesting) conversation.

I read the book many years ago when it came out. It is well written, a page-turner of a read, and thoroughly chilling. That being said, I haven't re-read it, and I want to be able to watch the show and "get" the plotlines without having to re-read the book or do research on Wiki. 

The scenes of the Unwomen in the Colonies seem to me to unquestionably depict them being poisoned by radiation. YMMV.

[Earlwoode]

12 minutes ago, dleighg said:

Eden) Do you mean under her clothes or her regular clothes?

Her underwear since there is definitely a difference between the wives and the Handmaids.  Also, what is this obsession with everyone wearing the exact same clothes?  When has that ever happened except in a nun’s convent?

[deSchenke]

13 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

Her underwear since there is definitely a difference between the wives and the Handmaids.  Also, what is this obsession with everyone wearing the exact same clothes?  When has that ever happened except in a nun’s convent?

 

It is here in the 21st century.  Afghanistan women had freedom to wear what they wanted, until the Taliban took over.  Their culture is very close to Gilead's: http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm

[kieyra]

47 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

 On my TV screen, everything Serena and the wives wear is green.  Why do people keep saying they wear blue?  And no, I don’t have an old set, it’s brand new smart TV.  I also noticed the difference between the Handmaid’s underwear and Serena’s normal bra and panties. Why is that, I wonder?  What does Nick’s wife wear (can’t remember her name)?

People perceive colors differently. 

Here's an interview with the show's costume designer. She most often uses the word 'teal' to describe the wives' clothing, but sometimes says blue.

http://www.vulture.com/2017/04/handmaids-tale-costumes-how-they-came-together.html

Wikipedia defines teal as a medium blue-green color. It might "pull" one direction or the other for people depending on their vision, their viewing screen (even brand new televisions can be poorly calibrated, and "smart tv" usually just means it has internet connectivity and apps), lighting in the scene or in your room, etc. It pulls blue for me. I've seen a few other people say it looks more green, but rarely.

Fun fact: visual acuity differs among sexes, with women doing better at distinguishing between colors.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/09/120907-men-women-see-differently-science-health-vision-sex/

[dleighg]

they look green to me as well :) A pleasant bluish green (shall we say teal?), in contrast to the dull gray green of the Marthas.

[mamadrama]

43 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

Her underwear since there is definitely a difference between the wives and the Handmaids.  Also, what is this obsession with everyone wearing the exact same clothes?  When has that ever happened except in a nun’s convent?

The Amish and Mennonite women in my area wear similar clothing. There is sometimes a slight variation in color, but the garments are the same. I know several independent religious sects in my part of the state, too, that requires women to dress alike: the married women wear one color, unmarried women another, widows another. In Puritan times, it was not uncommon for the women to dress in the same clothing. 

[mamadrama]

Regarding radiation in the Colonies:

 

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/04/handmaids-tale-season-2-what-are-the-colonies-book-vs-tv-review

Quote

The other Colonies are worse, though, the toxic dumps and the radiation spills. They figure you’ve got three years maximum, at those, before your nose falls off and your skin pulls away like rubber gloves. They don’t bother to feed you much, or give you protective clothing or anything, it’s cheaper not to. Anyway they’re mostly people they want to get rid of. 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/handmaids-tale-team-opens-up-pregnant-offred-colonies-season-2-1094646

Quote

The scene showed Ofglen (Bledel) shoveling radioactive waste from the soil and putting it into waste bags that are carried away by horses, before breaking for prayer.

http://www.vulture.com/2018/04/the-handmaids-tale-season-2-the-colonies.html

 

Quote

All of the women sent to the Colonies will eventually die from exposure to radiation so Burton J. LeBlanc, who heads the show’s makeup department, considered their different stages of health as he planned how they would look. In stage one, the women have been in the Colonies for one to two weeks with dark circles under their eyes, sallow skin, and a discolored skin tone. In stage two, the women have been living there for three months. “So Emily (Bledel) has more broken skin and raised areas on the cheeks,” LeBlanc said. In stage three, the women have been living there for six months and have open wounds, raw skin, and dry, cracked hands that peel. With 98 extras and the regular cast to prepare, LeBlanc hired one makeup artist per six or seven women and set them up in stations under a heated tent according to each character’s stage of life.

Quote

In “Unwomen,” the second episode of season two, fans see for the first time what happened to Emily (Bledel) after she was expelled from Gilead for running over and killing a Guardian. Her life was spared, but she is sentenced to slave labor, cleaning up toxic waste in the radiation-soaked countryside. 

Quote

During her research, Van Gogh’s paintings of potato farmers working in the fields reminded Crabtree how farmers become part of the landscape as they toil in the fields. “In the Colonies, the earth itself has been raped of any nutrients. They’re surrounded by radiation, so even though the Van Gogh paintings are quite bucolic and have pastoral beauty, if you take that but take out the color, you have the Colonies in my brain,” she said. “The important thing, for me, was that the women blend in but have a tinge of color, to have a tiny bit of color left in their dresses because they’re not dead yet.”

Quote

Because the air and soil in the Colonies is filled with radiation, the Aunts, Guardians, and even horses wear gas masks. 

Quote

“I’m trying to express the idea of radiation, an even more current Fukushima, where the environment takes over man and mankind. Underneath the wide-brimmed hats that the Aunts wear is a flap of fabric to keep away the dust and prevent windburn. I am constantly trying to come up with an invention, literally, in the mind’s eye of a Commander who created all of these worlds. I am a commander dreaming up clothing that will last through desperate situations and weather-worn worlds.”

Edited June 12, 2018 by mamadrama

[Earlwoode]

49 minutes ago, deSchenke said:

It is here in the 21st century.  Afghanistan women had freedom to wear what they wanted, until the Taliban took over.  Their culture is very close to Gilead's: http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm

I always thought Gilead was based on Muslim fundamentalism rather than Christian with their emphasis on the total oppression of women.  That is what the show always reminded me of.

i definitely see green in the wive’s clothing.  If I squint, maybe blue green but always more green.  The Martha’s clothing comes across as totally grey. The oversized bonnets always remind me of the Darth Vader helmets in Star Wars, haha.  

Interesting fact about the underwear.  I live in Europe, I don’t recall anyone actually wearing the same clothing or underwear (not that I would know about that lol) as even religious communities now pretty much wear what they like. Of course, the exception is the burqa of Muslim women but I rarely see those around in my country.

Re the radiation quotes:so I guess we can definitely say they have radiation poisoning?  That’s what it always looks like to me.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Earlwoode

[mamadrama]

10 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

 

Re the radiation quotes:so I guess we can definitely say they have radiation poisoning?  That’s what it always looks like to me.

Ha ha, I guess I got carried away with those. Once I started looking, though, it became something of a game to see how many I could find. :-)

[Earlwoode]

4 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Ha ha, I guess I got carried away with those. Once I started looking, though, it became something of a game to see how many I could find. :-)

:-)

[Ashforth]

5 hours ago, dleighg said:

My husband and I discussed this and we both think (hope) that she's just playing him by pretending to be sorry and subservient. Hadn't thought what you are hoping though. Sounds great to me!

I definitely think June's intent is to lull Fred into a false sense of security where she is concerned, and I think she will be working with Serena, Nick, Rita, or whomever she can to incapacitate Fred (but not kill him). I think of Serena in her greenhouse and it reminds me of Hannah on Dexter home-growing her poisons.

[AnswersWanted]

2 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

I always thought Gilead was based on Muslim fundamentalism rather than Christian with their emphasis on the total oppression of women.  That is what the show always reminded me of.

 

It's not, not directly at least. 

 Margaret Atwood, the author, has discussed many times what her influences where when she wrote the book over 30 years ago.

She drew from world history as a whole and a lot of the ideas that she used came from European and American backgrounds such as the Puritans and the Fundamentalist Christian groups which often have held high popularity in the US since their conceptions. 

 When Fred picked up that bible and began quoting from it before he belted Serena, he was quoting from 2 bible verses that do exist, they did not make that up. 

 We have seen in history countless times that religious books and beliefs are touted as actual guidelines to live by.

 That's the main principle that Gilead claims they stand for, that they were going to bring the country back to god as close as possible and live underneath total godly rule.

Of course when "god" is merely a bunch of men sitting around thinking about ways to torture their wives and get free sex slaves the end result is not going to be all that great.

 They took the parts of the bible that say that women are lesser than men, that wives should submit to their husbands, that adultery is a sin punishable by death, that anyone who identifies as LGBTQ should die, that is not just a one religion belief even in today's world.

Edited June 12, 2018 by AnswersWanted

[nodorothyparker]

13 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

 When Fred picked up that bible and began quoting from it before he belted Serena, he was quoting from 2 bible verses that do exist, they did not make that up. 

It was an extremely paraphrased/altered version of verses from Ephesians popular with headship marriage proponents that conveniently left out a whole section that also admonishes husbands to love and cherish their wives as they would the church.  I'm not defending its use or the original verses in question, but we have discussed in previous episodes how Gilead is even perverting the Bible to suit its purposes and banking on the fact that women are no longer allowed to read it for themselves to argue that "no, it doesn't actually say that."  Serena, unlike most women, might actually know that.

[Earlwoode]

30 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

She drew from world history as a whole and a lot of the ideas that she used came from European and American backgrounds such as the Puritans and the Fundamentalist Christian groups which often have held high popularity in the US since their conceptions. 

Well, many years onwards (after she’s wrote the book) all that stuff visited on the women of Gilead is pretty familiar to us and not because we suddenly took a crash course in American history and Puritanism.  As an European, we see a lot of these atrocities casually reported in newspaper stories of certain Western countries which have substantial migrant populations.

As to Fred and the Bible, I guess you can pick and choose whatever quotes you like out of almost any religious book and make it seem to fit whatever narrative you want be it wife beating, the condemnation of homosexuality or the absolute love of a benevolent God.   Not that I’m an expert but I believe all of these religious books couch a lot of things in flowery, obscure language that can be twisted to mean whatever you like. Religion has always meant the control of the population by the clergy.

[AnswersWanted]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

It was an extremely paraphrased/altered version of verses from Ephesians popular with headship marriage proponents that conveniently left out a whole section that also admonishes husbands to love and cherish their wives as they would the church.  I'm not defending its use or the original verses in question, but we have discussed in previous episodes how Gilead is even perverting the Bible to suit its purposes and banking on the fact that women are no longer allowed to read it for themselves to argue that "no, it doesn't actually say that."  Serena, unlike most women, might actually know that.

 

  I know the verses were edited,  but it's also true that one of them directly calls wives "lesser vessels"  compared to their husbands, that is a direct quote with obvious meaning. 

 The bible makes it very clear that women came from Eve, herself a deceived woman, a weaker woman to Adam who did not fall victim to the serpent in the garden's trap, blah blah blah, and the rest.

 Yes the Gilead leaders have very clearly made the bible fit their narrative which I noted, but the point I was also making is that the groundwork was laid out for them fairly well from the book itself.

It did not need much help, to me. 

There are numerous text and verses that state exactly what they have made law: to commit adultery equals a death sentence, to be gay or a gender traitor you die too, husbands are the head of their households, heck,  the bible even states it's okay for a man to sell his daughter into sexual servitude, so technically they can use that verse to excuse marrying off little girls like Eden.

To say that the bible is filled with things that someone could use in an oppressive totalitarian society is an understatement, just like many religious texts.

 Oh I have no doubt Serena is aware of all the ways things have been altered, June has numerous times made mention of the fact that verses have been changed or flipped around or words taken out and put in.

In Serena's case though she is directly responsible for everything that's happening, so I actually find it fitting that the very book she wanted herself to use to subjugate others with is now being used against her.

 That's why Fred placed the bible on the seat of the chair so that Serena would have it in eyesight while she got whipped.

 

Quote

 

Well, many years onwards (after she’s wrote the book) all that stuff visited on the women of Gilead is pretty familiar to us and not because we suddenly took a crash course in American history and Puritanism.  As an European, we see a lot of these atrocities casually reported in newspaper stories of certain Western countries which have substantial migrant populations.

As to Fred and the Bible, I guess you can pick and choose whatever quotes you like out of almost any religious book and make it seem to fit whatever narrative you want be it wife beating, the condemnation of homosexuality or the absolute love of a benevolent God.   Not that I’m an expert but I believe all of these religious books couch a lot of things in flowery, obscure language that can be twisted to mean whatever you like. Religion has always meant the control of the population by the clergy.

 

 

It is very familiar today, but my point was in regards to Gilead being heavily based off of Muslim or Islamic culture, 

 When Margaret wrote it it wasn’t about today, it was about what she was witnessing both in her current world view and also taking things from the history of the world.

She was not merely writing about a certain perspective and it was not a perspective that has anything to do with 2018 or the 2000s at all, it was through the 70s and 80s when she wrote this book. 

 That was Margaret’s point she’s stated in interviews before, that at any time in history you can look back on things and see a certain pattern, a certain common thread, and one of those two main threads would be religious oppression/domination and women’s rights or lack there of and how both usually coincide. 

 Fred used his well tagged Bible as justification for what he did to his wife. To bring her in line with”knowledge”, reminding her there is no greater sin than disobeying her husband. 

Fred also goes to Jezebel’s to rape sex slaves and also drags his personal raped handmaid/s along when he really wants to spice things up.

Gilead being founded by such men like him, nothing but lying, cheating, self-serving hypocrites is a huge part of the story. And a commonly understood and documented part of the earth’s history. 

These type of men fall back on “the word of god” only when it suits them and benefits them. They use it to gain power and control and dominance. 

And it never hurts to actually take something longstanding called “the word of god” and use it out of context as much as you want to or just rewrite it completely.

Of course all of this is my opinion and ymmv. 

Edited June 12, 2018 by AnswersWanted
Clarification.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, AnswersWanted said:

>snipped<

In Serena's case though she is directly responsible for everything that's happening, so I actually find it fitting that the very book she wanted herself to use to subjugate others with is now being used against her.

 

I think this here is part of the interesting conversation we continue to have. I think Serena influenced a lot, and came up with certain aspects of Gilead's structure, but I don't think she's "directly" responsible for "everything". We saw the conversation between the men, for instance, as they came up with the Handmaid ceremony and she was not present. I'm not sure it was specifically her idea to prohibit sex between Wives and Commanders. I can see her approving of the Handmaid idea, but not to the extent that it's carried out now. (Surrogate baby mamas for the barren? Yes! Watching your husband having sex with another woman while you hold her down? Maybe not so much.) I think one of the reasons that SJ is starting to get a bee in her bonnet is that she *thought* she had more responsibility in structuring Gilead than she actually did, and she thought she'd have more power once it came to fruition. 

[AnswersWanted]

5 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I think this here is part of the interesting conversation we continue to have. I think Serena influenced a lot, and came up with certain aspects of Gilead's structure, but I don't think she's "directly" responsible for "everything". We saw the conversation between the men, for instance, as they came up with the Handmaid ceremony and she was not present. I'm not sure it was specifically her idea to prohibit sex between Wives and Commanders. I can see her approving of the Handmaid idea, but not to the extent that it's carried out now. (Surrogate baby mamas for the barren? Yes! Watching your husband having sex with another woman while you hold her down? Maybe not so much.) I think one of the reasons that SJ is starting to get a bee in her bonnet is that she *thought* she had more responsibility in structuring Gilead than she actually did, and she thought she'd have more power once it came to fruition. 

 

 When I say she’s responsible for everything, I don’t mean that she had an active role in every single detail of Gilead, but she was a major part of the spark that started the fire.

She was apart of the main network that created the movement, she had the book, she had the sway of certain opinions mainly female, she was an active participant until she no longer was able to be.

 Because of all that I do see her having direct responsibility for whatever the outcome turned out to be, because whether or not she agreed to what Gilead has become she helped it start. She helped give it life. 

I just see it as being complicit and the aiding and abetting of criminality, to me she’s just as guilty as those who currently lead Gilead, maybe even more. 

IMO, Serena’s pride and arrogance gave her the belief that she for some reason had a right to rule, she had a right to tell other people, other women especially, how to live their lives, how to raise their children or how they should be putting aside all other focus on self or career to have babies. 

 Sure she was being driven by very worrying statistics and numbers detailing the dropping fertility rate, at least partly, but it still was not her place, it is no one‘s place to revoke the basic rights of other human beings just because they seem to think that they know better. 

 I actually thought about that when she brought up the neonatal specialist who had been turned into a Martha to Fred.

There comes a look across Serena’s face as she realizes that because of her helping this regime come into being this woman, who could’ve saved countless lives and could and should currently be saving them, was instead trapped in another commander and wife’s home, serving them and waiting on them hand and foot. 

She was enslaved as a lowly housekeeper instead of being in her rightful place in the hospital, and Serena basically was going to have to plead with Fred now to give the woman a chance to save an innocent life, an innocent life of an innocent baby that was put in danger because Serena involved herself in this whole debacle. 

 Talking about the hell that is Gilead, to me Fred is becoming Serena’s own personal demon, he is literally using all of the tactics that she thought she could and would use against someone else on her.

He is using her religion and her God and her holy book as literal strikes just like the lashes of his belt across her backside.

 Serena does not need to be physically punished to feel the constant beating that Gilead, not just Fred alone, but Gilead continues to give her and she, in my eyes, has earned it all ten fold.  

[NoSpam]

23 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I wonder if that would extend to Wives too, being punished for their husband's sins?  I think that's a big reason why Serena Joy hasn't turned in her husband, what would happen to her?  Also, she's breaking a lot of rules herself now, so it's a draw.  Writing, forging orders to get the female doctor into the hospital, covering up for Fred and Jezebel's, and the reason for the former Handmaid's suicide.

They are all living in a burning house.

Yes, I think the whole household would suffer for the sins of one person. We saw it when they killed everyone in Offglen/Lillie's house after she did the bombing. These people conveniently think sin is contagious.

[Baltimore Betty]

6 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

He is using her religion and her God and her holy book as literal strikes just like the lashes of his belt across her backside.

This could be the thing that makes her wake up and rise up...the taste of what the others get may be the catalyst for her to start a revolution.  

The tide will turn with or without Serena but it would be something if she could participate in the change.  

[AnswersWanted]

9 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

This could be the thing that makes her wake up and rise up...the taste of what the others get may be the catalyst for her to start a revolution.  

The tide will turn with or without Serena but it would be something if she could participate in the change.  

 

It’d be the bare minimum, the very least she could do in my eyes, and it’s something she definitely needs to try to do without hesitation if given an opportunity.

Many a regime has been brought down or helped to be brought down by someone on the inside.

I do think that absolutely her pride was wounded by what happened in the office, the way that she feels about Fred has definitely been impacted, and it is certainly something that she will never forget and more than likely never forgive.

Honestly I would not mind that sort of breakdown in the future, but once a liberation or uprising had occurred I would absolutely hope and expect for her to be held accountable as the war criminal that she has been, for all the lives lost because of her, for all the devastation and destruction of countless families and innocent victims that Gilead targeted. 

 I do not believe that there is truly anyway for Serena to earn a pass or reprieve or ultimately forgiveness for what she’s done, there should be a clear and definitive and permanent punishment for her for what she actively brought about and the things she has done since Gilead took over.

 Watching her get belted makes her look human because frankly she is, she isn’t a mystical monster of some kind, 

But, for me, that does not replace, for example, the image of a woman who flew into a rage and choked her pregnant handmaid, the same pregnant handmaid that she forced to sleep with her driver because she was determined to get a baby at all cost.

Serena has done far too much of her fair share, IMO, of using Gilead’s system and law enforcement for her own benefit. If she were to help bring it down then she needs to be brought down right along side.