Season 2 Talk

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, that was definitely a retcon, but I hardly even care, because the flashbacks were with Zach and Hannah were so cute, and when Zach ditched her out of fear for being judged was so sad. I think Zach is a good hearted person, but he is also a follower who is too afraid to stand up to his friends, of even his mom. I feel bad for him, but I also hope this is something of a wake up call for him. He clearly knows what his flaws are, so I hope that he can finally tell his awful friends to shove it. Its not a good trait, but I certainly knew plenty of teens at my high school who didnt bully people, but were too afraid to stand up for bullies, out of fear of being targeted themselves. Its not nice, but its real. 

I really felt bad for him when he admitted to his mom that he thought about wanting to die after his dad died, and she just kept telling him that couldn't be true, even while he was clearly about to break down crying. Will people here never learn?

Wow Clay. When even Justin thinks your an asshole, you really need to reevaluate your life choices. So because Hannah slept with Zach and not him, he doesn't care about getting justice for anymore, and he doesn't "know" her? How has Clay become one of the most assy characters in the whole cast this season? Sure, it makes sense for a teen, but still, get it together! He is really becoming a dick in his obsession with his vision of who Hannah was, and its making him creepy and selfish. Maybe because most of the characters who acted like asshole last year are admitting what they did was wrong and are feeling guilt or trying to make it right, and are so clearly suffering horribly because of the consequences of their actions, while Clay is just running around being self riotous and slut shaming his dead friends ghost. 

At least Jessica is talking at last. And Alex finally has a tiny breakthrough. With Zach. In the shower room. Half naked, Well thats...interesting.

Edited May 24, 2018 by tennisgurl

[monagatuna]

3 hours ago, CloudySky said:

And maybe I'm an horrible horrible person, but part of me actually wanted Tyler to go in there and shoot some of those assholes. And that's where the show went wrong imo because I shouldn't have felt that way even for a second about a mass shooter going into a school.

Save me a spot in the handbasket, then, because my immediate reaction was "yeah, Tyler, get 'em!" and then I clapped my hands over my mouth and realized what I'd just said.

Glad the crisis was averted, but it would've been too predictable (just like the trial outcome) for a school shooting at prom to happen.

[Last Time Lord]

I put this as episode 14, because I couldn’t get it to post without an episode number  

Just like last year, Netflix also has a Beyond The Reasons special, only this time, it is more akin to something like The Talking Dead, with a host and an audience of fans. 

I’m not too far into it, but one of the topics of discussion is the theme of intervention and how it came up during the season. 

Last year’s was about a half hour long, this one is a little over an hour. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

9 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Bryce gets off the hook scotch free, Tyler comes back only to get beat and raped in the bathroom, Jessica/Justin hook up, Justin is back on drugs, all the photos are burned....why is all this bad stuff still happening? Where are any of the happy endings? 

I think these things are because the show is more concerned with being realistic than with giving the audience happy endings. It’s realistic that a heroin addict would relapse. It’s realistic that a teenage girl who has admitted she still loves her ex would hook up with him in a moment of weakness. It’s realistic that a rich white athlete rapist would get a very light sentence. It’s realistic that a kid who’s been repeatedly bullied, beaten, and let down by the system would be raped and then become despondent enough to do something desperate and violent like taking guns to a school event. It is horrible that these things happen but it’s realistic because they actually happen all too often. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo
Typo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

43 minutes ago, dlyn said:

I live in San Jose and I haven’t heard anyone say hella in years, unless it was done so ironically. I also noticed the reference to Oakland as “the city,” which stuck out like out a sore thumb. Even the smallest Oakland suburbs don’t refer to it as such. 

I wasted a lot of time trying to match suburbs to their fake city, like where would you find a family as rich as Bryce’s and as poor as Justin’s in the same district. But they probably didn’t give it that much thought. Just Fake Town, USA. 

Ha, glad I wasn’t the only one who noticed “the city” thing!

Although I totally agree that it’s rare to find a city that would have kids like Bryce and Justin going to school together, they definitely exist. In the Bay Area, Berkeley is one of thise places. There is one public high school for the entire city (which has a population of over 100K). There are kids who live in custom built multimillion dollar homes in the Berkeley Hills going to school with kids who live in HUD subsidized apartments and get free school lunches. There are kids with fancy brand new cars given to them by their parents and kids who are drug dealers. There are also regular middle class kids, which still represents a wide range of income. Mr. EB and most of his family (including both parents, all of his aunts and uncles, his siblings, and several of his cousins) went to Berkeley High (from the 1960s through today) so I have decades of stories about the huge economic divide in the student population.

According to them, hella has been around since at least the early 80s. Back then, they said hecka in elementary school until they got old/brave enough to say hella. I still heard kids saying hecka about 10-15 years.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

6 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Because while Clay was being a jealous, judgmental tool, his question wondering why Hannah freaked out the way she did when they almost hooked up at Jessica's party but apparently had a summer of passionate sex with Zach, is valid. Because last season clearly showed that Hannah's freak out came from her remembering Bryce grabbing her ass, Marcus assaulting her in public, the photo Justin took being circulated, etc.

Healing from trauma is an ongoing process, similar to grief. You have good days and bad days. You think you're okay and then you have a setback. Sometimes what happens is you think that you've gotten over something and then some small thing triggers a feeling or a memory inside you. As someone who was sexually assaulted, I can tell you that afterward, sometime I was able to be with a guy and I was totally fine and other times I would freeze or suddenly feel panicked (even if we were fully clothed and just making out). It's not something you can control and honestly, it's not always a logical reaction or a conscious decision.

The best comparison I have is sneezing or coughing. Sometimes you feel it creeping up and you can try to stop i but other times it just happens suddenly without any warning and there's no way to stop it from happening.

Maybe being drunk is what caused Hannah to freak out with Clay. Maybe it was being at a party with so many of the people who had been dicks to her. Maybe it was just anxiety that had been building up inside of her over the previous school year. It might also be that she felt safe with Zach (heh, you know, because he doesn't have the same obsessive/possessive attitude that Clay does). But whatever it was that caused that reaction, I can't really blame her for it because she did not seem in control of her emotions (which, again, may have been caused by the drinking).

I know that Olivia's reaction to finding out about Hannah and Zach having sex all summer was realistic for most parents, but at the same time her whole "How could I not know?" was a bit much for me. How many teenage girls announce to their parents that they've having sex in their bedroom all day long while their parents are at work? Of all the women I know, none of them told their parents, "Hey, guess what I did while you were at work today? I lost my virginity!" or "How was your day? I spent mine fucking this boy upstairs!"

As for Hannah still being hung up on Justin after that picture got passed around, I totally buy that. How many people do you know have stayed in bad relationships "because I love him/her!"?  Add teenage hormones to the mix and it's even more believable. People can't help how they feel about someone else ("the heart wants what the heart wants"), so I get Hannah being hung up on Justin. But what I like is that she KNEW she still liked him but didn't act on it. She didn't pursue him or date him again so in that sense, she was making more mature decisions than some adults I know who are in shitty relationships.

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I really felt bad for him when he admitted to his mom that he thought about wanting to die after his dad died, and she just kept telling him that couldn't be true, even while he was clearly about to break down crying. Will people here never learn?

Yeah, that was really sad. He just told her that the reason he doesn't talk to her about some of these things is because they don't talk about feelings in their family so she had the opportunity to change that, but instead when he tried to talk to her about his dad's death and feeling hopeless/suicidal, she shut him down. Poor guy.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 5/22/2018 at 4:53 PM, memememe76 said:

I am not familiar with the actual drugs they consumed, but could Hannah have just forgotten about it?

Molly can have several side effects/after effects:
 

Quote

The lab-created chemicals mimic the effects of MDMA; most of them are central nervous system stimulants that cause euphoric highs. They can also cause a rapid heartbeat, high blood pressure, blood vessel constriction and sweating, and they can prevent the body from regulating temperature. Some of the chemicals have been reported to cause intense, prolonged panic attacks, psychosis and seizures.

After they wear off, the chemicals can cause devastating depression. Several of these compounds have caused deaths.

Some of the effects are not immediate:

Quote

MDMA's effects last about 3 to 6 hours, although many users take a second dose as the effects of the first dose begin to fade. Over the course of the week following moderate use of the drug, a person may experience:

• irritability
• impulsiveness and aggression
• depression
• sleep problems
• anxiety
• memory and attention problems

[shelley1234]

8 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

These past 2 episodes pissed me off to my core. I feel like they just screwed us over and left me with no reason to even care or continue with the show if it should get a third season. 

Bryce gets off the hook scotch free, Tyler comes back only to get beat and raped in the bathroom, Jessica/Justin hook up, Justin is back on drugs, all the photos are burned....why is all this bad stuff still happening? Where are any of the happy endings? 

Often there are no happy endings.   Just more pain and more injustice.  They didn't give the audience anything but reality.  I have respect that they didn't tie everything up with a red bow because that's not how it works.   Well, unless you are the Bryce Brock Turner types. For everyone else...standing up to the system is long and painful and many don't survive it.   The David Hogg's of the world fight knowing that even when they win, the probably lose.  

[Daltrey]

In the previous episode, Hannah asked Clay to forgive her.....I think just before the confrontation in front of Bryce's house. I'm not sure if she meant for killing herself or for not being completely honest with him but she said she needed or wanted him to forgive her. Of course, she's not really there and it's all in Clay's head, so I suspect it's all part of his processing all the new information coming out as a result of the trial and coming to terms with Hannah's death so he can eventually accept it and move on.

[Primal Slayer]

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think these things are because the show is more concerned with being realistic than with giving the audience happy endings. It’s realistic that a heroin addict would relapse. It’s realistic that a teenage girl who has admitted she still loves her ex would hook up with him in a moment of weakness. It’s realistic that a rich white athlete rapist would get a very light sentence. It’s realistic that a kid who’s been repeatedly bullied, beaten, and let down by the system would be raped and then become despondent enough to do something desperate and violent like taking guns to a school event. It is horrible that these things happen but it’s realistic because they actually happen all too often. 

I dont expect every single person to get a happy ending but this was just a kick in the face. Everything got worse, I needed some lights at the end of the tunnel. I feel the show is trying to have its cake and eat it to by being realistic but also very over the top. The whole mystery angle of the season veered on Pretty Little Liars territory. Not to mention no teachers ever around for anything.

They already had set up Tyler for his journey in this episode throughout the season, there was no need to have him get help, come back, get beat up and savagely raped.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

14 hours ago, Last Time Lord said:

About the Tyler scene. I’m frankly a little mad about the negative reaction. Tyler is the fifth character on this show to be a victim of sexual assault, and what gets me is I cannot remember there being anywhere close to this much outrage when it happened to Jessica and Hannah in season one, nor with the fact that Chloe has chosen to stick with her rapist and lied on the stand to protect him 

ITA - I'm not trying to downplay that what happened to Tyler was really fucking awful at all, but it seems odd to me that we have seen MULTIPLE rapes on this show, yet Tyler's is the one that's too disturbing? Is it because people think girls being raped is not shocking since we see it depicted more often on tv and in movies?

12 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Yes! And I love referring to them as the Justice League, even if they are more of Well At Least We Tried To Get Justice League. I thought it was enough when Tony heard the song and took off for Clay, but seeing them all surround him with the group hug dance was such a thing I didn't know I needed. I loved the scenes at the dance. I loved the weird friendships that have formed out of this tragedy and I love that they all actually went to the dance and hung out. I loved the juxtaposition of Bryce calling Justin "brother" immediately followed by Clay walking up to him to check on him. I love that they want to adopt Justin and that Justin wants to be adopted. I loved when Clay's mom said they would get Justin out and he didn't even look worried as he sincerely said "I know. Thank you."

Ha, perfect name for this Scooby gang! It was a very bittersweet moment to see that group hug because it was Hannah's death that eventually brought them together. If not for that, most of them wouldn't have been speaking to each other, let alone hugging in public. I really loved that Justin totally put his faith in Clay's mom to do everything she could to get him released.

[truthaboutluv]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Yeah, that was definitely a retcon, but I hardly even care, because the flashbacks were with Zach and Hannah were so cute,

I can suspend disbelief on a lot of things but frankly I spent that whole segment rolling my eyes so much at the sheer contrivance of the storyline that I couldn't find any of it cute. Not to mention that it doesn't help that while on some level I can sympathize with Zach because it is not always easy to stand up for what's right, I find him far too weak and a coward to ever really like the character.  

 

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Healing from trauma is an ongoing process, similar to grief. You have good days and bad days. You think you're okay and then you have a setback. Sometimes what happens is you think that you've gotten over something and then some small thing triggers a feeling or a memory inside you. As someone who was sexually assaulted, I can tell you that afterward, sometime I was able to be with a guy and I was totally fine and other times I would freeze or suddenly feel panicked (even if we were fully clothed and just making out). It's not something you can control and honestly, it's not always a logical reaction or a conscious decision.

I am sorry for what you went through and as someone who has never been sexually assaulted, I'm not going to dismiss you or anyone's feelings on the storyline. That said, I still can only speak as a viewer and in my opinion, when it feels like so many twists and turns have to be made to make sense of a storyline then it was just bad. Bad and contrived. We have to rationalize so many things now for this whole thing to have made sense and I just don't buy it. 

Frankly watching this episode was the first time I truly rolled my eyes at this show and it made me understand why The Hollywood Reporter gave it such a scathing negative review. I was surprised when I saw it because despite the controversy over some of the content in the first season, the reviews were stellar across the board. This time, THR summed it up as essentially an over dramatic, contrived mess hitting every possible cliche it could. Like I said, it's not like I didn't get what the writers were going for here. I just feel like if you have to rewrite your story and make up some contrived, out of left field stuff to tell it, then that's a problem. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[Lady Calypso]

9 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Funny because it cemented to me how weak and a coward he is. Zach reminds me of what one of the Little Rock Nine women said on Oprah's show, when they were discussing the racism and verbal abuse they got when they started at the previously white school. Some of their old white classmates were in the audience and one of them was this guy who never said anything hateful to any of them but he never did a thing to stop it or ever speak to any of them or try to befriend them. He just kept his head down and didn't get involved.  And the woman said that that that guy actually represented most of the students. That the bullies were actually just a few people. The greater threat was the silence and turning a blind eye from the other students. 

I think that Zach can be a coward and also be a good person at the same time. Like I said, he's a good guy, but he's made a few shitty choices as a teenager. I don't think that negates the good that he does have inside of him. He just has some more growing up to do and he has to mature more in order to be the best self he can be. And yeah, that may not happen until he's an adult, until he's out of high school and in a new environment. That's what happened to me, which is why I can relate to Zach. I was a coward throughout high school and was afraid to really speak up and speak out. I do now and I do it with confidence, but only because of certain university experiences with an abusive ex best friend and roommate at the time. High school, I think I was more ignorant than anything but yes, also a coward. I guess that's why I like Zach. I recognize a little of him in me when I was in high school. He feels pressured to be a certain way that it causes him to hide away from any sort of change that might disappoint others. And yeah, that may be a different type of cruel, but it's one that can be changed and that he can grow out of. 

He's shown kindness toward Hannah as well as cruelty with choosing his dumb jock friends over her, which is why he was included in her tapes. But he did truly care for her. Sure, the relationship here was a retcon, but one that did add to Zach as a character, adding to his flaws but also showing the strength of his good his heart is if it wasn't shadowed with his biggest vice: cowardice. 

[truthaboutluv]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

But he did truly care for her. Sure, the relationship here was a retcon, but one that did add to Zach as a character, adding to his flaws but also showing the strength of his good his heart is if it wasn't shadowed with his biggest vice: cowardice. 

YMMV but again for me, no, it just made him worse. Zach in season 1 was a guy who just silently sat by while his friends were assholes and didn't say anything and then tried to talk to Hannah but she went off on him publicly because she was going through a lot and then he acted like a spoiled brat and stole her notes in some class. Like Clay says in the first episode, dickish sure but not the most horrible thing in the world. Zach from this episode was a guy who slept with Hannah, spent a summer being with her and as soon as summer was over, chose his douchebag friends over her and when she tried to hold onto some semblance of pride by being the one to yank the bandaid off and end things, he just passively went "okay..." and that's it.

Didn't even attempt to change her mind, fight for her in any way, etc. Like I said, I get doing the right thing is hard at times, I get that not everyone can stand up against bullies, I get that these characters are supposed to be very young, etc. but I'm sorry, no amount of beautiful lighting and sunlit scenes will make me romanticize this rewrite and retcon relationship and buy that he really cared for her. No, he liked her well enough, was attracted to her and I guess the sex was really good apparently by the way they spoke about it. But at the end of the day, he was a coward who fucked her over just like his other friends did and if I have to buy this rewritten relationship, frankly likely left her more fucked up and broken than she was before because at that point, there was the complication of her having sex with said person, the most intimate and vulnerable one can be with another person.

Edited May 24, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[shelley1234]

28 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

They already had set up Tyler for his journey in this episode throughout the season, there was no need to have him get help, come back, get beat up and savagely raped.

Except that it happens.   I worked with kids in jail diversion programs and they would come back and have all these skills they wanted to use and then some version of this happened more often than I like to remember.    That kid was a sitting duck since the moment he got back.   It also showed the point that the school has done zero things to protect the students there if they aren't the precious valuable athletes.   

21 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

ITA - I'm not trying to downplay that what happened to Tyler was really fucking awful at all, but it seems odd to me that we have seen MULTIPLE rapes on this show, yet Tyler's is the one that's too disturbing? Is it because people think girls being raped is not shocking since we see it depicted more often on tv and in movies?

 

I would make the case that is in fact the case.   Women being raped is common place.  It isn't shocking.  It's life.  

[memememe76]

The episode also showed a sex positive message, where the teens engaged in a consensual, safe, and exploratory sexual act. Yes, it was contrived, but it worked for me. It was also Hannah at her most engaging this season (although I enjoyed her scenes with Ryan and Tony too).

[Empress1]

2 hours ago, shelley1234 said:

Except that it happens.   I worked with kids in jail diversion programs and they would come back and have all these skills they wanted to use and then some version of this happened more often than I like to remember.    That kid was a sitting duck since the moment he got back.   It also showed the point that the school has done zero things to protect the students there if they aren't the precious valuable athletes.   

I would make the case that is in fact the case.   Women being raped is common place.  It isn't shocking.  It's life.  

Note how all of the women on the show had a story. My male friends were shocked when #metoo (shout out to Tarana Burke) started blowing up and all the women they knew had stories about being sexually harassed, assaulted, and/or raped. I think because male on female rape is depicted so readily in the media, when it happens to men it's seen as more shocking.

I actually found the beating more shocking than the rape - they could have killed him bashing his head against the mirror and the sink like that.

In the scenes at the dance when they were all having fun, I kept thinking that it was such a shame that Hannah wasn't there. About how final death is, you know? I mentioned here that one of my friend's students died by suicide a few years ago and sometimes she'll talk about a fun all-school thing that the students did, and she'll think "[Student] isn't here." He was only 13. In one of the articles about him, the author asked "What decision would you make when you were 13 that you'd want to be permanent?" A couple of years later, a very popular rising senior at a different but similar school (prestigious competitive private school) died of suicide right before the school year started and I had the same thought about him, that he wasn't going to get to do so many fun things that have nothing to do with high school. 

I tried and failed to care about Chloe's pregnancy. I did wonder about the lack of condom use when she and Bryce had sex the times we saw (actually, there doesn't seem to be a lot of condom use on this show) but I don't care that she's pregnant.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

My male friends were shocked when #metoo (shout out to Tarana Burke) started blowing up and all the women they knew had stories about being sexually harassed, assaulted, and/or raped. I think because male on female rape is depicted so readily in the media, when it happens to men it's seen as more shocking.

For women, it's accepted as part of life. I always think about this very small exchange from My So-Called Life:

Angela: These guys started hitting on us.
Brian: What? Like, sexual harassment?
Angela: Like guys.

But for men who don't deal with being on the receiving end nearly as often, it's a shock. The episode "Ladies and Gentleman" in S1 of Master of None illustrates both the stark contrast in male/female experiences as well as the general blissful ignorance that many men have about the female experience in many different situations. A male character posts a picture of his brunch on instagram and gets comments like "Yum town!" A female character posts a picture of the same brunch food and gets comments like "I want to fuck your face!" The guys are shocked. Two male characters walk home from a bar at night to the tune of "Don't Worry, Be Happy" and their biggest inconvenience is one of them getting dog poop on their shoes. A female character walks home from a bar at night and is worried that the douchebag who was hitting on her at the bar is following her. When the guys hear her story the next day and other women tell them they've been followed home by creepy guys too, once again the guys are shocked. Lots of men were shocked by all the #metoo stories but for most women, the reaction was NO SHIT. Like Olivia, I don't know a single female who hasn't dealt with some kind of sexual harassment/assault/abuse.

So I get that women would not be as shocked by seeing Hannah, Jessica, and Chloe being raped by Bryce because for women, sexual assault/harassment/abuse is pretty common. But why aren't men as disgusted by those scenes as Tyler's? Because they see something that could actually happen to them? Because they don't equate female rape with the same kind of pain, humiliation, and shame as male rape?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I dont expect every single person to get a happy ending but this was just a kick in the face. Everything got worse, I needed some lights at the end of the tunnel.

Some people got happy beginnings. Courtney is out and confident enough to go to a school dance with her new girlfriend. Tony's boyfriend knows what he did and didn't dump him. Zach stood up to Bryce and is now publicly hanging out with the Well At Least We Tried to Get Justice League. Jessica is now sleeping in her own bed instead of on the floor of her parents' bedroom. Alex is getting some of his memories back. Sheri seems like she's fine (even if we didn't see her in the last few episodes). Justin is being adopted by Clay's family. Ryan is going to travel for a year. Those all seem like good things! Yes, Chloe's knocked up, Bryce got almost no punishment, Clay is still fucked up, and Tyler is about to be in a lot of trouble, but a lot of the characters ended the season with progress so I don't think it's all gloom and doom in Nameless NorCal Town.

[monagatuna]

20 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

So I get that women would not be as shocked by seeing Hannah, Jessica, and Chloe being raped by Bryce because for women, sexual assault/harassment/abuse is pretty common. But why aren't men as disgusted by those scenes as Tyler's? Because they see something that could actually happen to them? Because they don't equate female rape with the same kind of pain, humiliation, and shame as male rape?

I keep getting reminded of the (para)phrase: homophobia is fearing men will treat you the way you treat women. To me that really says it all. Men are used to being the perpetrators, and are profoundly uncomfortable when it's pointed out that they too can be victims. Much like women who victim-blame by claiming the victim shouldn't have gone there, worn that, drunk that, what they're really trying to do is take back control of the situation by convincing themselves that by making different decisions, they can avoid the same outcome. It's disconcerting when it becomes clear that no such preparation or decision-making can shield them from the actions of others.

[Last Time Lord]

11 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Zach stood up to Bryce and is now publicly hanging out with the Well At Least We Tried to Get Justice League. 

This made me laugh loudly in the break room at work. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

8 minutes ago, Last Time Lord said:

This made me laugh loudly in the break room at work. 

All credit goes to @bettername2come for coming up with that name!

[shelley1234]

29 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

For women, it's accepted as part of life. I always think about this very small exchange from My So-Called Life:

Angela: These guys started hitting on us.
Brian: What? Like, sexual harassment?
Angela: Like guys.

But for men who don't deal with being on the receiving end nearly as often, it's a shock. The episode "Ladies and Gentleman" in S1 of Master of None illustrates both the stark contrast in male/female experiences as well as the general blissful ignorance that many men have about the female experience in many different situations. A male character posts a picture of his brunch on instagram and gets comments like "Yum town!" A female character posts a picture of the same brunch food and gets comments like "I want to fuck your face!" The guys are shocked. Two male characters walk home from a bar at night to the tune of "Don't Worry, Be Happy" and their biggest inconvenience is one of them getting dog poop on their shoes. A female character walks home from a bar at night and is worried that the douchebag who was hitting on her at the bar is following her. When the guys hear her story the next day and other women tell them they've been followed home by creepy guys too, once again the guys are shocked. Lots of men were shocked by all the #metoo stories but for most women, the reaction was NO SHIT. Like Olivia, I don't know a single female who hasn't dealt with some kind of sexual harassment/assault/abuse.

So I get that women would not be as shocked by seeing Hannah, Jessica, and Chloe being raped by Bryce because for women, sexual assault/harassment/abuse is pretty common. But why aren't men as disgusted by those scenes as Tyler's? Because they see something that could actually happen to them? Because they don't equate female rape with the same kind of pain, humiliation, and shame as male rape?

Yep.  True.   I also think that there is a sense that "well of course that is assault" when with women the lines of grey make it something that has to be proven, and most times is not.  It's why someone like Jessica does not want to come forward and be put on trial and called a slut in order to bring her rapist to justice.   And even when she does, she doesn't get justice...at least not the justice she deserves.   The lawyers and the judge all called it "unfortunate on all sides."  The rape of Tyler isn't something that would be seen unfortunate on all sides and that highlights why it is so hard for women to come forward and why most do not.   

I'll also add that while I think male rape is more jarring for all the reasons we have discussed, I also think it's jarring because of how and when it happened.   Tyler came back and seemed to be on the road to health and maybe even happiness.   To see his hope and potential and then see what happened is something that just kicks you in the gut.  Tyler saw a way out and then was dragged back in by a brutal beating and rape.   

[Last Time Lord]

2 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

All credit goes to @bettername2come for coming up with that name!

I thought calling them the Justice League was great, but this? That is phenomenal. 

[monagatuna]

20 hours ago, Zap said:

I guess someone taking their life leaves you so powerless that 'blaming them' can happen.. Just like all those people who feel suicide is selfish, because you should think of all the people around you. (Personally not something I completely agree on. Sure it's sad how much Hannah's decision affected most of these people, but in the end 'think about the others!' is not the most convincing argument to somebody who's depressed (as well as probably convinced people are better of without her))

I agree with your take. I lost a good friend to suicide a few months ago and I couldn't imagine blaming him. His troubled mental state, personal issues, and PTSD were well documented and the suicide was not particularly a surprise to any of us once we were honest with ourselves. I hope this doesn't come off as cruel, because obviously we all wish things had gone the other way, but he was just suffering way too much to be able to handle everything properly. Despite his troubles, it was very clear he knew how much we all loved him and he made it clear he loved us all back very much as well. Our love didn't make him want to stick around any more, and it might have just made a troubled young man leave the planet with more guilt than necessary.

I don't think I'm articulating myself properly, all I mean to say is you can love and be loved, and it may not affect your decision, but I don't think I can bring myself to blame him or call him selfish, despite missing him and wishing he'd made a different choice.

[Last Time Lord]

2 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

I'll also add that while I think male rape is more jarring for all the reasons we have discussed, I also think it's jarring because of how and when it happened.   Tyler came back and seemed to be on the road to health and maybe even happiness.   To see his hope and potential and then see what happened is something that just kicks you in the gut.  Tyler saw a way out and then was dragged back in by a brutal beating and rape.   

This is what makes it so sad, for me. He was getting better. He even said so, himself, and tried to apologize to Monty and the minions for the baseball season getting cancelled. 

The course was being corrected, but then got knocked off track by one truly heinous act.

[shelley1234]

4 minutes ago, Last Time Lord said:

This is what makes it so sad, for me. He was getting better. He even said so, himself, and tried to apologize to Monty and the minions for the baseball season getting cancelled. 

The course was being corrected, but then got knocked off track by one truly heinous act.

True.   It is unfair.   It's also what made it incredible real for me.   He went off, worked on himself and really started to change, but the system he came back to....didn't change at all.   And he is still someone that the "Tried to Get Justice League" mostly see as one of the bad guys, so he doesn't get a group hug or support.   He came back to an environment where the only outcome was something along the lines of what happened.   While I don't condone it, I understand the decision Tyler came to when he came to that dance with the gun.   

[Last Time Lord]

2 hours ago, shelley1234 said:

True.   It is unfair.   It's also what made it incredible real for me.   He went off, worked on himself and really started to change, but the system he came back to....didn't change at all.   And he is still someone that the "Tried to Get Justice League" mostly see as one of the bad guys, so he doesn't get a group hug or support.   He came back to an environment where the only outcome was something along the lines of what happened.   While I don't condone it, I understand the decision Tyler came to when he came to that dance with the gun.   

I think the group’s attitude is starting to change, if the final scene is any indication. 

As too little and too late, it may be. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

40 minutes ago, monagatuna said:

I agree with your take. I lost a good friend to suicide a few months ago and I couldn't imagine blaming him. His troubled mental state, personal issues, and PTSD were well documented and the suicide was not particularly a surprise to any of us once we were honest with ourselves. I hope this doesn't come off as cruel, because obviously we all wish things had gone the other way, but he was just suffering way too much to be able to handle everything properly. Despite his troubles, it was very clear he knew how much we all loved him and he made it clear he loved us all back very much as well. Our love didn't make him want to stick around any more, and it might have just made a troubled young man leave the planet with more guilt than necessary.

I don't think I'm articulating myself properly, all I mean to say is you can love and be loved, and it may not affect your decision, but I don't think I can bring myself to blame him or call him selfish, despite missing him and wishing he'd made a different choice.

I'm so sorry that you lost your friend. I think people who accuse someone of being selfish don't understand the overwhelming sadness and depression that these people are feeling. They're not trying to hurt their friends and family. They just want to make that feeling stop. Unfortunately, knowing that people love you doesn't make the bad feelings go away.

People are so much more understanding when people with terminal illnesses choose to stop treatment or turn to physician assisted suicide but it's a similar situation in that they are suffering from a disease that's causing an immense amount of pain and suffering. Unfortunately, mental health is often looked upon as an issue of weakness or lack of self control rather than a "legitimate" health problem.

My dad became depressed during/after cancer and my mom told me that she didn't want him taking anti-depressants. I told her that she was taking my dad to get treatments and medication for his cancer and that anti-depressants are the same thing for your brain. It's no different than a diabetic taking insulin. There's a chemical your body isn't producing enough of so you take medication. When my dad FINALLY got some anti-depressants shortly before he died, he was like a different person. He went from sullen, moody, angry, brooding over slights from decades ago, and crying to smiling and laughing again.

Anyway, Clay blaming Hannah for being selfish because she left him when she died is CLAY being selfish. It's not anyone's job to stay alive to keep you happy. Besides, how many times has Clay been selfish? How many times has he hurt people by choosing to do something that HE wanted to do, even if he didn't intend to hurt anyone? We all do that. Aren't we all inherently selfish because we want to do what we ant to do? Of course you should think of other people and try not to hurt them (Wil Wheaton's "don't be a dick" rule), but by the same token, you can't live your life for other people. I'm not saying that Hannah made the best possible choice (I wish she'd gone to a good therapist or transferred to a different school), but what should NOT have been on her list of reasons why not: "It might make Clay mad."

[ElectricBoogaloo]

In case you feel like crying again:

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I feel like I should add the S1 dance scene on principle:

[tennisgurl]

During the whole opener, I was like "oh boy, babies first drug trip" and it turns out I was right! Of course the school lawyer takes that and turns it into "Hannah was a druggie skank bitch with a bunch of druggie skank friends" because thats her whole entire argument. 

I cant really blame Clay or anything for not taking Hannah's suicidal thoughts after their Molly trip seriously. If I had a nickle for every time one of my high school friends, especially when tired or hung over, would say how much they wanted to die, I could pay off my student loans. Granted, in retrospect, I really should have taken those more seriously, and I've been very lucky that none of my friends actually went through with anything, but in hindsight is 20/20 and all that. Clay and everyone else could have done better, and listened to her more. Its kind of the whole point of the series. 

I admit, I did kind of snicker when Clay was saying how he has never bullied anyone ever, only for the lawyer to point out all the stuff he has done the last year (circling that picture of Tyler, keying Zachs car, getting Courtney out to Hannah's grave), and realizes that, yeah, that all sounds really bad when you line it all up. It reminded me of when someone listed all the pranks Jim played on Dwight over the years on The Office. Yeah, pranking Dwight seemed ok at the time because Dwight is such a pain in the ass, but listed out like that, it really does make Jim seem like a total dick. Of course, Clay isnt anywhere close to that level of self awareness yet. Yes Clay, please continue being pissed off and jealous at Justin, the homeless drug addicted abuse victim, for watching a movie with your parents, who you shut out at every turn. This seasons running theme, beyond the stuff carried over from last year, seems to be "Clay is really selfish". Even Ghost Hannah called him out on being obsessed with getting his own version of justice for Hannah, even if its not what Hannah would have really wanted, while ignoring the any people in his life that clearly need support, and are, at least for now, still alive. 

God I miss Jeff. So many creeps in this school, and yet poor, sweet, Jeff is the one who dies. It was nice to see how much Shari is still hurting over what happened, and how hard she is trying to make up for it. At least her and Clay at a nice conversation about it, without Clay blowing up at her. 

I feel so bad for Alex and Jess. They're both struggling so hard, and trying to be supportive, but are dealing with so much crap. Alex just has so much anger, and you can see how much everyone was hurt when he was screaming about wishing he had "done it right" when he shot himself.  

[tennisgurl]

On 5/22/2018 at 11:18 AM, Empress1 said:

One thing I can't get over on this show is the way the kids curse at and in front of their parents. The way they speak to each other doesn't faze me at all; kids curse. But there's no code switching! 

I know right? I would never dream of wearing in front of my parents as a teen! In front of my friends, or even my sister or cool aunt? All the time. In front of mom and never! It took me years to use the lords name in vain in front of them! Even as an adult in my late 20s, I dont swear in front of my parents, and they dont swear in front of me. 

That being said, I did know people in high school who casually dropped F Bombs in front of their parents and it was no big deal, and it absolutely floored me. I had one friend who’s parents drove us to tennis practice, and they all swore in front of each other, both in anger and just casually, and it blew my sixteen year old mind. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by tennisgurl

[ElectricBoogaloo]

In contrast, I will say that at least these kids still call each other's parents "Mr./Mrs. ______" instead of using their first names. It's always surpising to me when I hear kids call their friends' parents by their first names. One of my friends from college still addresses my mom as Mrs. EB.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

After rewatching the dance scene, I just had to say again how much I loved it. I loved how Cyrus, Eric, and Toby (what happened to poor Chad?) knew something was up with Clay but instead of asking him what was wrong or being confrontational, they gave him his space, followed him to make sure he was okay, and stayed close enough to be there if he needed them. Heh, I also loved that of the three of them, Cyrus forgot to take off his funny hat from the photo booth. I loved how tightly Tony hugged him, how tenderly Jessica hugged him, and how gently everyone else embraced him.

I know they must have shot this multiple times to get all the different angles, but I noticed that Alex changes places. Initially he's to the right of Jess (and Zach is on Alex's right) but after the overhead shot, Alex is to the left of Jessica (and now Zach is on Alex's left).

[Glade]

6 hours ago, monagatuna said:

I keep getting reminded of the (para)phrase: homophobia is fearing men will treat you the way you treat women.

I find that a very ignorant and exclusionary way to define homophobia since it leaves out the millions of homophobic women, like my own mother, who abuse and reject gay (or supposedly gay, i.e. emotional, sensitive, vulnerable... not hypermasculine) men for not conforming to the highly repressive, restrictive male gender role.  I don't think you get to define our words for us in a way that ignores our experiences of discrimination.  

And actually, men who have been raped and/or sexually abused/molested do not have an easier time being believed, in court or otherwise.  Straight boys are told that they always want sex and therefore can't possibly be raped by women, and gay boys (or rumored to be gay boys) raped by men are told that they always want sex or are blamed for their 'slutty behavior' or just called gay. At the very least, 1 in 6 boys have been sexually abused as children (probably the real rates are much higher) and rates of teen boys that feel forced to have sex when they don't want to in relationships are also incredibly high.  So, I don't agree with the way male survivor/rape issues are being talked about in this thread.   I also don't think that it's only men who have objected to seeing Tyler being raped, or that it was only men who also objected to seeing a graphic rape in the S1 finale of Outlander.

[shelley1234]

53 minutes ago, Glade said:

I find that a very ignorant and exclusionary way to define homophobia since it leaves out the millions of homophobic women, like my own mother, who abuse and reject gay (or supposedly gay, i.e. emotional, sensitive, vulnerable... not hypermasculine) men for not conforming to the highly repressive, restrictive male gender role.  I don't think you get to define our words for us in a way that ignores our experiences of discrimination.  

And actually, men who have been raped and/or sexually abused/molested do not have an easier time being believed, in court or otherwise.  Straight boys are told that they always want sex and therefore can't possibly be raped by women, and gay boys (or rumored to be gay boys) raped by men are told that they always want sex or are blamed for their 'slutty behavior' or just called gay. At the very least, 1 in 6 boys have been sexually abused as children (probably the real rates are much higher) and rates of teen boys that feel forced to have sex when they don't want to in relationships are also incredibly high.  So, I don't agree with the way male survivor/rape issues are being talked about in this thread.   I also don't think that it's only men who have objected to seeing Tyler being raped, or that it was only men who also objected to seeing a graphic rape in the S1 finale of Outlander.

The images of women being raped are common place.  That's an absolute fact.  I can't think of a drama show that doesn't have a female rape storyline.  It does not mean men are not raped and that it isn't difficult for them to report it or even put words to it.   Not sure where that was said in this thread.  

[Last Time Lord]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

After rewatching the dance scene, I just had to say again how much I loved it. I loved how Cyrus, Eric, and Toby (what happened to poor Chad?) knew something was up with Clay but instead of asking him what was wrong or being confrontational, they gave him his space, followed him to make sure he was okay, and stayed close enough to be there if he needed them. Heh, I also loved that of the three of them, Cyrus forgot to take off his funny hat from the photo booth. I loved how tightly Tony hugged him, how tenderly Jessica hugged him, and how gently everyone else embraced him.

I know they must have shot this multiple times to get all the different angles, but I noticed that Alex changes places. Initially he's to the right of Jess (and Zach is on Alex's right) but after the overhead shot, Alex is to the left of Jessica (and now Zach is on Alex's left).

IIRC, on the Beyond The Reasons special they mentioned  it took an entire day to do the stuff at the dance. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 minute ago, Last Time Lord said:

IIRC, on the Beyond The Reasons special they mentioned  it took an entire day to do the stuff at the dance. 

I only had time to watch the first ten minutes of that the other night so I will have to finish it this weekend! I can’t imagine how emotionally draining it must have been to shoot that multiple times. 

[NUguy514]

I assume Sheri was sent to juvie, and I also think that's completely ridiculous.  Yes, knocking down the sign meant that Jeff died, but as @kilda stated, reporting that immediately would almost assuredly not have prevented Jeff's death.  Out of all of the characters, Sheri was the one I always thought was the best (as in the "most good").  She was never unkind to anyone and was the only one to take ownership of her actions and face the consequences; it's just that the consequences seem to have far outweighed the crime.  Clay's treating her like pond scum most of this episode knocked him made me want to punch four times more than I already do.

[tennisgurl]

Oh, poor Justin. I was really afraid he might OD, thank God Alex managed to get there in time. That whole sequence was great, and I loved their conversation afterwards. I have missed their weird friendship. Of course, then they got to sass Clay when he showed up and, of course, started yelling at Justin because if he does, how will Clay avenge Hannah!?! Yeah, why would Clay think about how much his releasing of the tapes would affect anyone else? At least Justin if off to live at his abusive home again, that should make Clay happy! I might be a little harsh on him, but Clay is working my last nerve this season. 

I will say though, watching Bryce freak out was pretty great, especially when every time he walked by everyone scattered away. Things are looking bad for him, even though daddy's money will probably end up saving his useless ass. No surprise that he runs immediately crying to daddy when he realized the tapes were out. 

So Chloe might actually not stick with Bryce, and might even step up for Jessica!

[monagatuna]

15 hours ago, Glade said:

I find that a very ignorant and exclusionary way to define homophobia since it leaves out the millions of homophobic women, like my own mother, who abuse and reject gay (or supposedly gay, i.e. emotional, sensitive, vulnerable... not hypermasculine) men for not conforming to the highly repressive, restrictive male gender role.  I don't think you get to define our words for us in a way that ignores our experiences of discrimination.  

And actually, men who have been raped and/or sexually abused/molested do not have an easier time being believed, in court or otherwise.  Straight boys are told that they always want sex and therefore can't possibly be raped by women, and gay boys (or rumored to be gay boys) raped by men are told that they always want sex or are blamed for their 'slutty behavior' or just called gay. At the very least, 1 in 6 boys have been sexually abused as children (probably the real rates are much higher) and rates of teen boys that feel forced to have sex when they don't want to in relationships are also incredibly high.  So, I don't agree with the way male survivor/rape issues are being talked about in this thread.   I also don't think that it's only men who have objected to seeing Tyler being raped, or that it was only men who also objected to seeing a graphic rape in the S1 finale of Outlander.

I'm sorry for coming off that way. It wasn't clear that that is only one definition of homophobia. I should've been clearer--homophobia is larger than the quote I paraphrased, but it does include that situation. Perhaps I should've used "gay panic"...but hopefully you can still see my point. I simply meant that hetero rape is so commonplace (edited to clarify: in media--I am not sure of the statistics in real life with respect to gay versus straight rape) that it doesn't have the shock value of gay rape (especially in a gay rape of straight men), because while there is the fear and shock of rape, there is also the added layer of being raped by someone who is not your preferred gender.

I won't pretend to understand your experiences and wouldn't dream of disputing your statistics. I am one of a lucky minority who, despite her time in the closet, has had a mostly positive coming-out experience and cannot begin to understand the experience of true homophobia. I apologize for my insensitivity and appreciate your comments.

Edited May 25, 2018 by monagatuna

[NUguy514]

The moment when Zach was putting on the condom with a face full of concentration and then announced it was OK was hilarious.  I loved him and Hannah together, and I don't even care that it's a retcon.  I think they did a good job of showing how having a mother like Zach's who won't let him feel anything but "fine" about anything and everything has caused him to be so incapable of expressing himself that he so often has made cowardly choices; I find it really sad because he does have so many lovely qualities.

Alex's boner after wrestling with Zach also made me laugh, but it also kind of confirmed what I thought was the root cause of his inability to get a boner watching lady porn or kissing Jessica.

Clay can go fuck himself.  Seriously.  He has become just awful.  He's dropped so far down the rankings of the regular characters; he's ahead of only Bryce (obviously) and Marcus (but kind of barely).  I even like Ryan more than Clay right now, and I hate Ryan!  Ugh.

[PeekaBoo]

Eugh...

At least i wasnt too surprised that bryce had raped his girlfrien like that. The guy has serious issues so i think he'd raped any female if he just felt like it.

[millennium]

On 5/24/2018 at 12:58 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think these things are because the show is more concerned with being realistic than with giving the audience happy endings. It’s realistic that a heroin addict would relapse. It’s realistic that a teenage girl who has admitted she still loves her ex would hook up with him in a moment of weakness. It’s realistic that a rich white athlete rapist would get a very light sentence. It’s realistic that a kid who’s been repeatedly bullied, beaten, and let down by the system would be raped and then become despondent enough to do something desperate and violent like taking guns to a school event. It is horrible that these things happen but it’s realistic because they actually happen all too often. 

 

I don't know if realistic is a word I would associate with this show.   For example, is it realistic that a new girl in school who has been harassed and shamed by a group of asshole jocks would put herself into romantic situations with nearly every one of them?   One possibly ... but several?    I get Clay's rage.   He loved Hannah, but she was apparently only attracted to boys who treated her like shit before and after dating her.   He was a nice, shy guy, not an alpha, so he didn't stand a chance.   It's a hard thing to understand at that age.

Is it also realistic that affluenza, rapes, a highly publicized suicide, students receiving death threats from a mysterious stalker, faculty brawling in the school hallway, broomstick buggery, and a school shooter would all happen at one school?   In one year?   Especially with Hannah's story squarely in the public eye?   

Edited May 25, 2018 by millennium

[PeekaBoo]

Omg. Loved the fight. Only thing missing was a cool song in the background teehee..

Bryce is psycho as fuck. Enabling parents are just the worst. 

Amazing episode. 

[truthaboutluv]

On 5/20/2018 at 6:49 PM, starri said:

I swear, I think all of these scenes where Clay sees Hannah just mean he has a brain tumor.

I don't think he has a tumor but we know Clay has struggled with his own mental issues, since last season touched on his having previously been on medication. So I hope at some point that is addressed again. I know he is insufferable and can be a major ass but I do think he is at his core a good person. 

I agree about the smug being momentarily wiped off Bryce's face but it's why I wished that Clay had only released some of the tapes or in fact, just the one of Hannah talking about Bryce raping her and then the one of Bryce admitting it to Clay. While a lot of the other people on the tapes made mistakes and in the case of Marcus is an unequivocal asshole, the person who really needs to be fucking taken down here is Bryce. 

 

On 5/20/2018 at 12:08 AM, Lady Calypso said:

That being said, as much as I think that Justin needed to leave the Jensen home as he can't stay there forever,

I mentioned in another episode thread the issues I am having with this season and the issue of Justin is something that is really bugging me. Clay being a clueless idiot is bad enough but I guess we can justify that as his being a kid but I couldn't believe when after finding out about Justin's drug problems, neither of Clay's parents mentioned putting Justin in a fucking rehab facility. For one thing, it'd ensure he wouldn't get access to any more drugs, he'd be able to truly detox safely and he'd be in a safe environment. Instead it was just, "Clay you didn't tell us he was on drugs" and then them arguing about the mother being too obsessed about the case and whatever else. Also, I can't believe the parents also didn't pick up on Justin being on drugs. Like they really bought that flu story? Look at the kid for fuck's sake. He screams junkie. 

Speaking of Clay's parents, I was surprised and confused to find out that his mom essentially found out about the text messages between Hannah and Zach and alerted the defense attorney. I didn't get why she would do that. Was it her need and desire to be involved so that even if she was no longer on the case and her son wasn't going to be dragged into it (that was before Hannah's parents lawyers decided to subpoena him after all) she could feel I don't know smug and satisfied that she was still serving a purpose? I don't know, the whole thing just seemed odd. I figured when she was snooping in the earlier episode, she was trying to see all the information they had on Clay, which as a parent, I understood. I just don't know why she decided to insert herself in the case and essentially help the school's case, knowing what she does because she heard the tapes, she knows Bryce admitted to what he did to Hannah and knows how Bryce damn near almost killed her kid when he tried to get that confession.

Edited May 26, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[AnnieHeights]

Thoughts on this season:

Tyler's rape scene......two things that were jarring for me:  1.  The physical violence leading up to it, his head being smashed against the ceramic sink, head held underwater. 2. The tool used on him.....I just kept thinking how much internal damage was being done to him (not to discount the emotional damage obviously) and how he seriously, seriously needed to see a doctor.  I wanted him to tell his parents so bad I felt sick.  The poor kid needed medical attention. 

I get everyone being frustrated with Clay in how he responded to 'Hannah' about her love life but he was being an honest teenager IMO.  Example, when Tyler came back to school to find out Mackenzie was dating someone else.  His response was "That's Cool" we all know it wasn't cool with him, he was hurt and probably jealous, feelings most people would have.  Clay was verbalizing what probably a lot of people would feel, right or wrong.  Hannah dating or having a physical relationship with anyone other than himself was hard for him to accept (especially when he knew nothing about it). He was in love and combined with his idealized version of her, losing the possible opportunity of being with her and every other awful thing he had been through that whirlwind of a year, it would be hard for an adult to process rationally.  Also keep in mind with some of the dumb things he said i.e. why would a girl put herself in that position (the clubhouse)? He is a kid, more conservative in some areas than a lot of his peers and he isn't a female.  I believe a lot of people would have that initial reaction, Sheri schooled him on it and he understood after seeing a different perspective.    

I was pissed at the girl for burning the polaroid's, burning hers was fine, her choice but burning evidence was not cool.

I am guessing they are going to deal with Chloe having an abortion next season.               

Poor Alex......I wish Jessica would have not identified them as dating only to have sex with Justin.              

The Clay/Skye relationship should have been scrapped, it was not believable and didn't add anything to the overall story. 

Every character on this show needs extensive therapy.

[tennisgurl]

Mr. Porter really came through this time! His plan of beating people up for his students wasn't working, so now he turns on the school in court. Man, I really felt for him when he imagined what he should have said to Hannah, and said that he wanted to make sure that never happens again, and that he screwed up. I think Porter was ill prepared for his job at Liberty, but I think he means well, and is essentially a good person. I feel like the school would fire him, if not try to scapegoat him for this whole thing, but I hope he doesn't, as he seems to actually be getting it now. 

Alex working at the drug store is a good idea, it seems like he had a bit of a breakthrough when he saved Justin. On the other hand, it seems like the memory he seemed to be getting back probably wont be a good thing for his mental health. 

Clay had been working my last nerve this season, but I felt really bad for him when he got beat up, and him joining the Assholes for a mission was fun. I mean, they broke the law, but they arent wrong by any stretch. They have at least one serial rapist they refuse to look into at least, and everyone knows it. And him texting Justin a million times to make sure he as ok was actually quite nice, and you can tell it meant a lot to Justin, especially after Bryce told him last episode how no one gave a shit about him.

I admit, I did actually feel a bit bad for Justin's mom this week. She is a terrible mom and a coward, and leaving your kid to be abused is terrible, but she seems like a deeply broken person, and I do think she loves Justin, although he really shouldn't be in her custody anymore. And she did seem to be truly miserable when she realized that Justin was going down the same path that she did. 

Tony is getting worse with his guilt driving him off the rails, although I dont know who messed with his poor, beautiful car. Was it whoevers messing with everyone else, or was it something to do with beating up that guy?

[Last Time Lord]

I can’t renember what episode it was in, so I’m placing it in this thread, but Bryce getting an erection from remembering him raping Hannah just cemented him as one of fiction’s greatest monsters, to me.