S06.E10: START

[sistermagpie]

I admit when I think about the show it fels like four seasons and then the last two are an epilogue.  Or a break and then an epilogue.  There's a lot that's great in the last season but I never quite found my feet with the time jump. 

[Umbelina]

7 hours ago, Bannon said:

I would have loved to see what Vince Gilligan & Co. could have done with the premise and cast of The Americans.

My dream show right there!  He would have rocked this cast, and he would have made changes and cuts and additions as needed.  Paige and the Pastors would have probably both been dead.  I honestly think Vince Gilligan and the group he's assembled are the best in the business now, BY FAR.  I've listened to every single commentary of Breaking Bad, and most of Better Call Saul's as well.  His care, his awareness, the dedication and devotion to getting things right is beyond astounding.  His ability to adjust and adapt and let story naturally flow by noticing what his cast can do on screen?  Fantastic.

He never sticks to a storyline for a character only because of plot or some prearranged plan or ending.  He has, of course, endings in mind, but he loves being challenged by his group, and he LISTENS to them, and to his own instincts.  He's a perfect leader.  Jesse was supposed to die, Mike's roll was originally shorter, as were The Cousins.  He sees gold on screen, and he mines it.  He sees crap on screen?  It's gone.  He doesn't stick to stories that aren't working, but he can find ways to make them work that others may not.

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

The last two seasons the problems were much more pronounced , no doubt, but the seeds were planted for trouble earlier, most significantly in the excessive violence creating a lot of plot and character incoherence, and Stan being in general poorly written. The show never recovered from losing the Martha arc, which was fantastic.

I was willing to let so much go in the beginning, because the show kept me so entertained, and I looked at it as exactly that, entertainment, but in no way an even slightly accurate portrayal of embedded spies and what they do.  The sad thing is, they could have had the action, the drama, the edge of your seat don't even breathe moments, and based them in more reality.  Philip and Elizabeth would have, for example, most definitely have run agents, Martha, the "incredubilious" guy who told them Star Wars was bullshit, Young Hee, helping William smuggle out bioweapons, the submarine parts factory, so many things.  Those things required embedded spies who could pass for Americans.

They didn't need completely unbelievable plots like CIA/FBI and KGB officers killing each other.  They didn't need embedded spies to break in to the Mail Robot factory, other KGB agents specializing in break ins would do EVERYTHING like that, probably with the diplomatic cover of the Residentura.  Hell, spies at the Residentura would do most of what Philip and Elizabeth did.

Season five was so poorly written and executed it makes me weep, but more importantly?  It sent me into season six, no longer trusting this writers, no longer loyally along for the ride.  Sure!  Let's dump half the cast, and separate the rest of them!  Philip and Stan had almost no scenes, no connection anymore.  Oleg and Martha were off in Russia, on their own.  Nina was killed, understandably, but still, a huge hit.  The Residentura essentially ceased to exist, and the FBI offices came in late in the game in season six. 

The no-ending "ending" bothers me most of all.  RESOLVE SOMETHING writers!  Come on now.

45 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Totally agree. It has been a giant waste of my time for the last two seasons and I think most of the critics are brain-dead as to how pointless the show had become.

I wonder if the critics would have been so forgiving if this show was a huge ratings grabbing hit?  Somehow, I honestly don't think so.  I think it's human nature to pull for the little guy that everyone is overlooking.

The acting saved this show.  I'm not unhappy I watched it, and I will probably watch much of it again.  I don't feel I wasted my time, except for most of season five, I actually enjoyed it, in spite of how ridiculous it was.  It was more like an "Alias" for me, and I was OK with that.

The no-ending though?  Annoys me so much I almost want to smack the smug-assed writers.  They left everyone in peril, every single person we care about is in extreme jeopardy, with no resolve.  I can (and did) fan wank both very pleasant endings for each of them, and very heartbreaking endings for each of them in the AMERICANS PART TWO thread.

Which would happen?  Either is equally possible.

Thanks a lot writers.  If I want to write fan fiction, that's what I'd be doing.  What I wanted was an ending that included at least a modicum of logic or resolve.

[SusanSunflower]

my seething hatred for the Sherlock Moffatt/Gattis like "aren't we so very clever" Renee "cliffhanger"/ red herring  knows no bounds .... seriously ... why not just castrate Stan and leave his bloody body for folks to gloat over .... 

 

What worked -- in spades -- repeatedly -- brilliantly -- was giving and enhancing the dignity of characters like Martha and Song-hee and Gregory (and other hapless victims of this amoral murderous pair ... Even Jared ... to include also both the mail-bot repairwoman and the older war-crimes pair) -- that was the strong suit that kept this beyond salaciousness (including and despite the honey pots) ... see also Oleg and Nina and ... still others. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Anela]

Wait, someone mentioned Henry's reaction. Did we see that? I had a fever when I was a trying to watch, so maybe I missed it, but I don't remember seeing Henry at all, other than on the phone, and then on the ice, with Stan looking through glass. 

[Umbelina]

37 minutes ago, Anela said:

Wait, someone mentioned Henry's reaction. Did we see that? I had a fever when I was a trying to watch, so maybe I missed it, but I don't remember seeing Henry at all, other than on the phone, and then on the ice, with Stan looking through glass. 

Near the end, no sound (which bugs me) but Henry learning from Stan about his parents.

[Anela]

28 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Near the end, no sound (which bugs me) but Henry learning from Stan about his parents.

Thanks, I don't remember seeing that.

[Milburn Stone]

17 hours ago, Bannon said:

I would have loved to see what Vince Gilligan & Co. could have done with the premise and cast of The Americans.

BB and BCS are two of my favorite shows ever, but one reason is that they're not like anything else. The Americans was also not like anything else. 

[qtpye]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

My dream show right there!  He would have rocked this cast, and he would have made changes and cuts and additions as needed.  Paige and the Pastors would have probably both been dead.  I honestly think Vince Gilligan and the group he's assembled are the best in the business now, BY FAR.  I've listened to every single commentary of Breaking Bad, and most of Better Call Saul's as well.  His care, his awareness, the dedication and devotion to getting things right is beyond astounding.  His ability to adjust and adapt and let story naturally flow by noticing what his cast can do on screen?  Fantastic.

He never sticks to a storyline for a character only because of plot or some prearranged plan or ending.  He has, of course, endings in mind, but he loves being challenged by his group, and he LISTENS to them, and to his own instincts.  He's a perfect leader.  Jesse was supposed to die, Mike's roll was originally shorter, as were The Cousins.  He sees gold on screen, and he mines it.  He sees crap on screen?  It's gone.  He doesn't stick to stories that aren't working, but he can find ways to make them work that others may not.

I was willing to let so much go in the beginning, because the show kept me so entertained, and I looked at it as exactly that, entertainment, but in no way an even slightly accurate portrayal of embedded spies and what they do.  The sad thing is, they could have had the action, the drama, the edge of your seat don't even breathe moments, and based them in more reality.  Philip and Elizabeth would have, for example, most definitely have run agents, Martha, the "incredubilious" guy who told them Star Wars was bullshit, Young Hee, helping William smuggle out bioweapons, the submarine parts factory, so many things.  Those things required embedded spies who could pass for Americans.

They didn't need completely unbelievable plots like CIA/FBI and KGB officers killing each other.  They didn't need embedded spies to break in to the Mail Robot factory, other KGB agents specializing in break ins would do EVERYTHING like that, probably with the diplomatic cover of the Residentura.  Hell, spies at the Residentura would do most of what Philip and Elizabeth did.

Season five was so poorly written and executed it makes me weep, but more importantly?  It sent me into season six, no longer trusting this writers, no longer loyally along for the ride.  Sure!  Let's dump half the cast, and separate the rest of them!  Philip and Stan had almost no scenes, no connection anymore.  Oleg and Martha were off in Russia, on their own.  Nina was killed, understandably, but still, a huge hit.  The Residentura essentially ceased to exist, and the FBI offices came in late in the game in season six. 

The no-ending "ending" bothers me most of all.  RESOLVE SOMETHING writers!  Come on now.

I wonder if the critics would have been so forgiving if this show was a huge ratings grabbing hit?  Somehow, I honestly don't think so.  I think it's human nature to pull for the little guy that everyone is overlooking.

The acting saved this show.  I'm not unhappy I watched it, and I will probably watch much of it again.  I don't feel I wasted my time, except for most of season five, I actually enjoyed it, in spite of how ridiculous it was.  It was more like an "Alias" for me, and I was OK with that.

The no-ending though?  Annoys me so much I almost want to smack the smug-assed writers.  They left everyone in peril, every single person we care about is in extreme jeopardy, with no resolve.  I can (and did) fan wank both very pleasant endings for each of them, and very heartbreaking endings for each of them in the AMERICANS PART TWO thread.

Which would happen?  Either is equally possible.

Thanks a lot writers.  If I want to write fan fiction, that's what I'd be doing.  What I wanted was an ending that included at least a modicum of logic or resolve.

This will probably win all the acting Emmys. However, if this show beats Better Call Saul for writing, I will hurl my TV out the window. It is like the critics have all drank the kool-aid that the Americans is a smart and amazing show that only an "elite few" can understand and they desperately all want to be in that club, so no one has the balls to scream out the Emperor has no clothes.

[ByTor]

On 5/31/2018 at 12:58 AM, KBrownie said:

Of course, they'll be okay.

I couldn't agree more with your entire post.  They don't deserve to be okay.

[Sentient Meat]

Whenever you feel the urge to get on your high horse judging either Philip and Elizabeth, or Stan and his crew... remember that we all voted for a President who dropped 26,171 bombs in 2016 and he's considered the nice guy of the bunch.  We are all complicit in our apathy to these horrors... as we will sit in our comfortable chairs saying tsk tsk to the terrible things that both sides are doing thinking somehow we are above all of this and we sit watching Homeland and The Americans secure in the knowledge that we would never stoop so low.  We all are Henrys living in our ignorantly blissful bubbles watching CNN/MSNBC/FOX which are all uniformly sanitized of anything which might be of discomfort to those living in the post Vietnam news era.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/america-dropped-26171-bombs-2016-obama-legacy

I think one of the key moments when Elizabeth regains some of her humanity is when the artist teaches her to see.  Normally, or perhaps I should say most people tend to view the world in left hemisphere terms.  A face is an oval shape, an eye is a circle with a dot, a mouth is a straight line.  The artist teaches Elizabeth to see random shapes of light and dark as opposed to preconceived symbols...  Russia is not Tchaikovsky, borscht, and a TV show from the motherland, America is not McDonalds, Epcot center, Jordache Jeans... they are both filled with nuances of light and color far beyond those broad strokes, and I think the show's ability to show those shades from characters on both sides of the struggle was its strongest point.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Sentient Meat

[SunnyBeBe]

52 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

 

I think one of the key moments when Elizabeth regains some of her humanity is when the artist teaches her to see.  Normally, or perhaps I should say most people tend to view the world in left hemisphere terms.  A face is an oval shape, an eye is a circle with a dot, a mouth is a straight line.  The artist teaches Elizabeth to see random shapes of light and dark as opposed to preconceived symbols...  Russia is not Tchaikovsky, borscht, and a TV show from the motherland, America is not McDonalds, Epcot center, Jordache Jeans... they are both filled with nuances of light and color far beyond those broad strokes, and I think the show's ability to show those shades from characters on both sides of the struggle was its strongest point.

I think that's a very good point. I hadn't thought of it that way before. 

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Sentient Meat said:

Whenever you feel the urge to get on your high horse judging either Philip and Elizabeth, or Stan and his crew... remember that we all voted for a President who dropped 26,171 bombs in 2016 and he's considered the nice guy of the bunch.  We are all complicit in our apathy to these horrors... as we will sit in our comfortable chairs saying tsk tsk to the terrible things that both sides are doing thinking somehow we are above all of this and we sit watching Homeland and The Americans secure in the knowledge that we would never stoop so low.  We all are Henrys living in our ignorantly blissful bubbles watching CNN/MSNBC/FOX which are all uniformly sanitized of anything which might be of discomfort to those living in the post Vietnam news era.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/america-dropped-26171-bombs-2016-obama-legacy

I think one of the key moments when Elizabeth regains some of her humanity is when the artist teaches her to see.  Normally, or perhaps I should say most people tend to view the world in left hemisphere terms.  A face is an oval shape, an eye is a circle with a dot, a mouth is a straight line.  The artist teaches Elizabeth to see random shapes of light and dark as opposed to preconceived symbols...  Russia is not Tchaikovsky, borscht, and a TV show from the motherland, America is not McDonalds, Epcot center, Jordache Jeans... they are both filled with nuances of light and color far beyond those broad strokes, and I think the show's ability to show those shades from characters on both sides of the struggle was its strongest point.

 

For the life of me, I do not understand why the fact that we are all failed human beings, and thus lend support to failed political systems, means that someone is "getting on their high horse" when they note it's really bad to butcher two people like pigs, because your boss tell you that their behavior is embarassing to the government that you and your boss work for. I mean, if an American drone pilot was told to shoot a Hellfire at Somali wedding party, because the bride and groom were embarrassing to the United States, I'd think it was really bad if the pilot didn't respond by saying, "Boss, that's not really a legal rationale for incinerating them, so that is not a legal order you are giving me. You should have just lied to me, and told me that they were terrorists."

It isn't just the fact that Liz sliced and diced the hockey player and his wife that was awful. It was the fact that Claudia was completely upfront about why they were to be murdered, so as to deny propaganda benefits to the U.S., and Liz did it anyways, without much protest.

This is another case where closer adherance to reality would have been better writing. Yes, the KGB did occasionally murder defectors. It did not do so on such flippant grounds, however, especially when the defector was a prominent entertainer, because, ironically enough, that would have been really shitty propaganda. No whacking of Mikhail Baryshnikov allowed!

It would have been better writing for the final rift between Liz and Claudia to take place when Liz says, "Claudia, of all the dumb fucking ideas the Centre has ever given us, whacking a former hockey player and his wife, because they are going to say awful things about our government, is the most stupid. Tell those numbnuts in Moscow to purchase a goddamned clue, and come up with more intelligent ideas for our work. And what's your excuse, ya' hapless halfwit? You've lived outside the USSR for decades, you know that murdering a famous athlete is a far worse propaganda than having him whine about life in the Motherland, so why aren't you pushing back on what those imbeciles send us! FUCK YOU, and I'm going home to take a nap, because I haven't slept in 3 weeks!!"

I'd have paid money to see that scene alone! Even though the entire last two seasons really need rewriting!

Edited June 6, 2018 by Bannon

[SunnyBeBe]

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

For the life of me, I do not understand why the fact that we are all failed human beings, and thus lend support to failed political systems, means that someone is "getting on their high horse" when they note it's really bad to butcher two people like pigs, because your boss tell you that their behavior is embarassing to the government that you and your boss work for. I mean, if an American drone pilot was told to shoot a Hellfire at Somali wedding party, because the bride and groom were embarrassing to the United States, I'd think it was really bad if the pilot didn't respond by saying, "Boss, that's not really a legal rationale for incinerating them, so that is not a legal order you are giving me. You should have just lied to me, and told me that they were terrorists."

It isn't just the fact that Liz sliced and diced the hockey player and his wife that was awful. It was the fact that Claudia was completely upfront about why they were to be murdered, so as to deny propaganda benefits to the U.S., and Liz did it anyways, without much protest.

This is another case where closer adherance to reality would have been better writing. Yes, the KGB did occasionally murder defectors. It did not do so on such flippant grounds, however, especially when the defector was a prominent entertainer, because, ironically enough, that would have been really shitty propaganda. No whacking of Mikhail Baryshnikov allowed!

It would have been better writing for the final rift between Liz and Claudia to take place when Liz says, "Claudia, of all the dumb fucking ideas the Centre has ever given us, whacking a former hockey player and his wife, because they are going to say awful things about our government, is the most stupid. Tell those numbnuts in Moscow to purchase a goddamned clue, and come up with more intelligent ideas for our work. And what's your excuse, ya' hapless halfwit? You've lived outbside the USSR for decades, you know that murdering a famous athlete is a far worse propaganda than having him whine about life in the Motherland, so why aren't you pushing back on what those imbeciles send us! FUCK YOU, and I'm going home to take a nap, because I haven't slept in 3 weeks!!"

I'd have paid money to see that scene alone! Even though the entire last two seasons really need rewriting!

LOVE the bolden.  That would have been awesome!  I predict that it would have been met with viewer applause and fanfare! 

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It would have been better writing for the final rift between Liz and Claudia to take place when Liz says, "Claudia, of all the dumb fucking ideas the Centre has ever given us, whacking a former hockey player and his wife, because they are going to say awful things about our government, is the most stupid. Tell those numbnuts in Moscow to purchase a goddamned clue, and come up with more intelligent ideas for our work. And what's your excuse, ya' hapless halfwit? You've lived outside the USSR for decades, you know that murdering a famous athlete is a far worse propaganda than having him whine about life in the Motherland, so why aren't you pushing back on what those imbeciles send us! FUCK YOU, and I'm going home to take a nap, because I haven't slept in 3 weeks!!"

 

But that's exactly the thing Elizabeth's whole character is based on never getting basically until Philip spells it out for her for the dozenth time with pictures. That's the first time she actually listens to an order from the perspective of whether this actually makes sense. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, it's a tricky thing...soldiers analyzing the morality of their orders....it can also be rather scary.  I think Elizabeth considered herself a soldier. 

[Plums]

Wasn't the order for Mr. and Mrs. Teacup to just whack Gennadi? Because he was the propaganda nightmare. I don't think they gave a shit about Sofia, tbh. In fact, Elizabeth had a distinct "Oh shit!" moment when she snuck in to kill him and overheard Sofia in the apartment, knowing the wife and kid were there. She tried to leave before he came into the kitchen and saw her. 

In any event, I don't even know that I buy they needed him dead because he had been one of the stars on their national hockey team. That could have been partially it, but he was a diplomatic courier, and it probably didn't take too long to figure out he must have been working with the Americans if a couple of counterintelligence agents met him at the airport and whisked him away to a safehouse. Keep in mind the information the FBI found in that pouch led them to Harvest. 

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But that's exactly the thing Elizabeth's whole character is based on never getting basically until Philip spells it out for her for the dozenth time with pictures. That's the first time she actually listens to an order from the perspective of whether this actually makes sense. 

I know. I don't like it when character are written so stupidly, for so long, because unenlightened, stupid, behavior ultimately becomes boring to watch, unless one of the character's primary purposes is comic relief. Badger and Sneaky Pete never getting a clue about what it means to deal meth in Albuquerque? Funny, and thus acceptable. Mike or Walt being dummies about what they are involved in, year after year? Not good.

The Americans would have been much better if Elizabeth had started purchasing a clue much earlier, instead of cramming it all in at the end. Season 5 would have been an ideal time, with the Too Stupid for Words Imagined Midgeapalooza Weaponized Wheat Caper. It really would have been so much better if Liz and Phil had been telling Gabe/Claudia, from the beginning  that this was pure absolute idiocy, but Moscow telling them to shut up and follow orders. Let the disillusionment ferment, not via cheesy homicides, but via normal "Our bosses are complete morons" daily grind. Dilbert gets married and has kids while working as a KGB illegal.

[Sentient Meat]

23 minutes ago, Bannon said:

For the life of me, I do not understand why the fact that we are all failed human beings, and thus lend support to failed political systems, means that someone is "getting on their high horse" when they note it's really bad to butcher two people like pigs, because your boss tell you that their behavior is embarassing to the government that you and your boss work for. I mean, if an American drone pilot was told to shoot a Hellfire at Somali wedding party, because the bride and groom were embarrassing to the United States, I'd think it was really bad if the pilot didn't respond by saying, "Boss, that's not really a legal rationale for incinerating them, so that is not a legal order you are giving me. You should have just lied to me, and told me that they were terrorists."

It isn't just the fact that Liz sliced and diced the hockey player and his wife that was awful. It was the fact that Claudia was completely upfront about why they were to be murdered, so as to deny propaganda benefits to the U.S., and Liz did it anyways, without much protest.

Of course it isn't bad to note this... it's only problematic if you note this believing one side was right and one side is wrong... one side is wearing a white hat and one side is wearing the black hat.

Liz was programmed to do what she did, just like we are programmed to believe the political system is democratic and not the product of oligarchy or plutocracy that predetermines elections by using data mining to tailor political advertisements and news coverage.  Liz actually does things... we sit and do nothing while our "agents of change" continue the status quo.

The takeaway should be that Oleg is the closest thing to a hero...  and Philip and Elizabeth are collateral damage like everyone else.

[Bannon]

9 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

Of course it isn't bad to note this... it's only problematic if you note this believing one side was right and one side is wrong... one side is wearing a white hat and one side is wearing the black hat.

Liz was programmed to do what she did, just like we are programmed to believe the political system is democratic and not the product of oligarchy or plutocracy that predetermines elections by using data mining to tailor political advertisements and news coverage.  Liz actually does things... we sit and do nothing while our "agents of change" continue the status quo.

The takeaway should be that Oleg is the closest thing to a hero...  and Philip and Elizabeth are collateral damage like everyone else.

You don't have to put anybody in a white hat or black hat to note that it is an emprical fact that a political regime which murdered 60 million of it's own citizens in 70 years, for the crime of political dissent, is inferior, by any measure, to a regime which had a scale of political murder which was far, far, far, lower.

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I know. I don't like it when character are written so stupidly, for so long, because unenlightened, stupid, behavior ultimately becomes boring to watch, unless one of the character's primary purposes is comic relief. Badger and Sneaky Pete never getting a clue about what it means to deal meth in Albuquerque? Funny, and thus acceptable. Mike or Walt being dummies about what they are involved in, year after year? Not good.

 

Oh, I knew you would feel that way. It just seemed like to do that there'd be a lot of restructuring involved because that was the writer's whole foundation for the marriage as well. That it was going to be Philip who snapped her out of it, not logic, even if you'd think the logic was obvious. Killing Genadi, as you said, is terrible PR. Plus it comes at a time when Elizabeth is already stretched ridiculously thin. There were so many reasons on that job for her to be like, "You want me to what?"

[Sentient Meat]

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

You don't have to put anybody in a white hat or black hat to note that it is an emprical fact that a political regime which murdered 60 million of it's own citizens in 70 years, for the crime of political dissent, is inferior, by any measure, to a regime which had a scale of political murder which was far, far, far, lower.

So by this standard you agree that the Russians who lost 27 million compared to the Americans 400,000 deserve more credit in the American History books than a footnote on the Eastern front.

Of course Stalin was worse, but this is like the guy who kidnapped the three women in Cleveland proclaiming his moral superiority to Jeffrey Dahmer.

I think the takeaway we all should have is that we all need to be more well read and informed as possible.

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh, I knew you would feel that way. It just seemed like to do that there'd be a lot of restructuring involved because that was the writer's whole foundation for the marriage as well. That it was going to be Philip who snapped her out of it, not logic, even if you'd think the logic was obvious. Killing Genadi, as you said, is terrible PR. Plus it comes at a time when Elizabeth is already stretched ridiculously thin. There were so many reasons on that job for her to be like, "You want me to what?"

That's what I mean. Let Liz be an actual thinking person, instead of a mindless ideologue.

[Sentient Meat]

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

That's what I mean. Let Liz be an actual thinking person, instead of a mindless ideologue.

Isn't that the purpose of Philip's character... to provide contrast to Liz's patriot?

[Plums]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

That's what I mean. Let Liz be an actual thinking person, instead of a mindless ideologue.

I mean, that seems to have been the point? She was a mindless soldier following orders and an idealogue. Her journey to not being that anymore was her arc in season 6. They intentionally wrote that.  

[Chaos Theory]

If the show had any weakness at all it is that it was too short and wrote two quick into an end.    I could see it writing another season into an ending and still ending the same way.  I still think the final season was as close to great as a tv show can get but there were times it felt rushed.  Paige’s training could have been an entire thing.   Philip the failed Capitalist could have been written so much better.  And yes Elizabeth ideologue vs free thinking spirt could have gotten more traction.  That being said I would still rate this season pretty high   #4 is my tops,  #3,  #6,  #2,  1 &  5.  

Edited June 7, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

So by this standard you agree that the Russians who lost 27 million compared to the Americans 400,000 deserve more credit in the American History books than a footnote on the Eastern front.

Of course Stalin was worse, but this is like the guy who kidnapped the three women in Cleveland proclaiming his moral superiority to Jeffrey Dahmer.

I think the takeaway we all should have is that we all need to be more well read and informed as possible.

First of all, the history books I read from 8th grade on didn't obscure that fact., which was why the scene of Paige learning basic WWII facts from Claudia was so incredibly dumb. Yes, some Americans are ignorant of WWIi history. Some American are ignorant of some aspects of all history.

If you think, for instance,  FDR is to Stalin as the kidnapper in Cleveland is to Dahmer, because FDR in large measure tolerated several dozen lynchings in the American South, as white supremacists politically oppressed black Americans, while Stalin deliberately starved to death several million Ukrainians in order to ensure political control, well, we will have to agree to disagree, and leave it like that, since we are well outside the scope of this thread. 

13 minutes ago, Plums said:

I mean, that seems to have been the point? She was a mindless soldier following orders and an idealogue. Her journey to not being that anymore was her arc in season 6. They intentionally wrote that.  

Yes, and it was way, way, way too rushed. That isn't how this stuff happens. Like I said, let her be a real person.

16 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

Isn't that the purpose of Philip's character... to provide contrast to Liz's patriot?

Yes, but Elizabeth need not be a light switch. I prefer watching a human being.

[Sentient Meat]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

First of all, the history books I read from 8th grade on didn't obscure that fact., which was why the scene of Paige learning basic WWII facts from Claudia was so incredibly dumb. Yes, some Americans are ignorant of WWIi history. Some American are ignorant of some aspects of all history.

If you think, for instance,  FDR is to Stalin as the kidnapper in Cleveland is to Dahmer, because FDR in large measure tolerated several dozen lynchings in the American South, as white supremacists politically oppressed black Americans, while Stalin deliberately starved to death several million Ukrainians in order to ensure political control, well, we will have to agree to disagree, and leave it like that, since we are well outside the scope of this thread. 

Disenfranchisement of minorities... having one of the largest prison populations many for non violent drug dealing...  choosing to bomb Arabs for 17 years rather than fund universal healthcare where an estimate 40,000 die yearly because of lack of coverage.  Only nation to ever use nuclear weapons on others.  Hanging Puerto Rico out to dry while the wealthy give themselves a 1.5 trillion dollar tax cut.  I have no issue with those who make the "Well, we're less evil than Russia or China..." argument.  As you say, it is empirically correct.  But I do have problems with those who wave flags and proclaim our greatness without the slightest clue what's going on out there.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Sentient Meat

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

Disenfranchisement of minorities... having one of the largest prison populations many for non violent drug dealing...  choosing to bomb Arabs for 17 years rather than fund universal healthcare where an estimate 40,000 die yearly because of lack of coverage.  Only nation to ever use nuclear weapons on others.  Hanging Puerto Rico out to try while the wealthy give themselves a 1.5 trillion dollar tax cut.  I have no issue with those who make the "Well, we're less evil than Russia or China..." argument.  As you say, it is empirically correct.  But I do have problems with those who wave flags and proclaim our greatness without the slightest clue what's going on out there.

Who in this thread has done that, and if nobody has, why are you raising that phenomena here? Is this a forum about current American politics?

[companionenvy]

I'm not going to engage in direct political comparisons, since I agree that is outside the scope of this thread. I will say that I think one can acknowledge that neither side in a conflict has totally clean hands without concluding that they are morally equivalent.

Fine moral distinctions matter. For instance, depending on your views, bombing a military target, knowing that there will be collateral damage, may be wrong, but I think it is certainly less wrong than bombing a passenger train.

Again, I'm deliberately not getting into the specifics of a US/USSR comparison, here. But I don't think almost anyone, if anyone at all on this thread is engaging in simplistic flag-waving. To the extent that our posts on the show stray into value judgments of the respective political ideologies and governments at stake, pretty much everyone acknowledges that the US/FBI/CIA have done bad things. Many of us nonetheless believe that there is still a qualitative and quantitative difference between the tactics of Stan and his people -- or even American spies embedded abroad -- and P/E and theirs. You can agree or disagree with this position, but I don't think it serves the nuanced discourse we've been having to dismiss this as mindless jingoism. 

[Sentient Meat]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

Who in this thread has done that, and if nobody has, why are you raising that phenomena here? Is this a forum about current American politics?

I agree with you that we ventured too far beyond the scope of the thread, but my point was that if Elizabeth did that as American spy, it might be considered by some as for the greater good if you place it the context of trying to save the world from a system that kills millions. However, that becomes a slippery slope when you view the world from its current context. This show isn't about which country is more evil, it's about the consequences of an individual's actions.  Those who blindly followed the political rhetoric of their respective nations are the problem in this show... those who questioned it and thought for themselves are somewhat heroes.  Oleg, Oleg's dad, Stan, Philip, Arkady all tried at certain points to fight the system...  Elizabeth and Claudia did not.  I felt the best female character, Sandra was horribly marginalized in this show.  The women were all either brainwashed like Liz, Paige and Claudia or victims like Nina and Martha.  I still am not sure whether this was misogynist writing or more a commentary of the role of women in the seventies and eighties and the inevitable consequence of living in a male dominated paradigm.

At any rate, I feel the writers wanted to express their anxiety about the current political climate by writing a cautionary tale about accepting what the state feeds you, no matter which nation you come from.

[Bannon]

15 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

I agree with you that we ventured too far beyond the scope of the thread, but my point was that if Elizabeth did that as American spy, it might be considered by some as for the greater good if you place it the context of trying to save the world from a system that kills millions. However, that becomes a slippery slope when you view the world from its current context. This show isn't about which country is more evil, it's about the consequences of an individual's actions.  Those who blindly followed the political rhetoric of their respective nations are the problem in this show... those who questioned it and thought for themselves are somewhat heroes.  Oleg, Oleg's dad, Stan, Philip, Arkady all tried at certain points to fight the system...  Elizabeth and Claudia did not.  I felt the best female character, Sandra was horribly marginalized in this show.  The women were all either brainwashed like Liz, Paige and Claudia or victims like Nina and Martha.  I still am not sure whether this was misogynist writing or more a commentary of the role of women in the seventies and eighties and the inevitable consequence of living in a male dominated paradigm.

At any rate, I feel the writers wanted to express their anxiety about the current political climate by writing a cautionary tale about accepting what the state feeds you, no matter which nation you come from.

 

Well, like I said, if an American government employee has been told to kill somebody because the somebody is a propaganda liability to the U.S. Government, and that employee didn't respond by saying that the order was illegal, that's a really bad thing.

I agree that the writing of Elizabeth and Paige was not good, but the writers lucked out on Elizabeth when Russell was such a great actor. I don't think it was misogyny or social commentary. I thought it was writers who lacked talent or didn't try hard enough. The actors earned the writer's paychecks on this show. Martha could have been a disaster if not for the magnificent Allison Wright.

[sistermagpie]

35 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

The women were all either brainwashed like Liz, Paige and Claudia or victims like Nina and Martha.  I still am not sure whether this was misogynist writing or more a commentary of the role of women in the seventies and eighties and the inevitable consequence of living in a male dominated paradigm.

I think a lot of it comes from the fact that they wanted to switch the traditional version where the man was the ideologue and the woman was the one who cared about people. In order for Elizabeth and Claudia to be as badass as they wanted them to be, they had to be the ideologues. Regret like that shown by Philip and Gabriel etc. plays differently on women. (There's also the fact that this type of behavior would be expected of them in different ways than it would be a woman.) So they were the ideologues. Paige was also ripe for brainwashing, but that's what made Paige a main character while Henry was in the background. It was looking at her as an individual with specific role models to whom she looked up. I don't think any of them say much about the role of women in the 70s and 80s. 

If they switched all these roles there would be plenty of times when that was also sexist: why is the woman the one who can't handle the hard life of spying and quits? How come the woman is the one who cares too much about her own victims and takes wild risks to protect the man she married and get him to safety? How come the son figures out something shady's going on while the daughter's just an oblivious teenager thinking about her friends and watching movies? Why is the wife pathetically in love with this guy who doesn't care about her back and is such a toxic presence in the family? 

Of course, once you get into the victims of their machinations everyone's a victim. Martha certainly was. But she was also strong enough to go on with life alone while Gregory was more like Elizabeth and only had the Cause. He had nothing to live for without Elizabeth, much. Kimmy was being duped by Jim but never became an idiot since he actually was a healthy person for her. She wasn't like Martha who was doing things she knew she didn't really want to do to keep a man. She was recognizing someone who treated her well and who she eventually rather outgrew.

I would disagree that Nina was really a victim in the end. She got herself into that position by smuggling things and eventually got herself out by making the same type decision as Oleg, Philip and the rest. She did what she thought was right despite knowing it would get her into trouble. She was punished for it, but so was everyone else. Her story was about her deciding to stop doing whatever she had to do to live another day and stand up for what she believed in--she made herself free.

Edited June 6, 2018 by sistermagpie

[crgirl412]

If I wanted to watch BB or BCS, which one should I watch first?  I think BB?

Thanks!

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

If I wanted to watch BB or BCS, which one should I watch first?  I think BB?

Thanks!

Interesting question! I think BB, because that's how the writers started.

[Sentient Meat]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think a lot of it comes from the fact that they wanted to switch the traditional version where the man was the ideologue and the woman was the one who cared about people. In order for Elizabeth and Claudia to be as badass as they wanted them to be, they had to be the ideologues. Regret like that shown by Philip and Gabriel etc. plays differently on women. (There's also the fact that this type of behavior would be expected of them in different ways than it would be a woman.) So they were the ideologues. Paige was also ripe for brainwashing, but that's what made Paige a main character while Henry was in the background. It was looking at her as an individual with specific role models to whom she looked up.

If they switched all these roles there would be plenty of times when that was also sexist: why is the woman the one who can't handle the hard life of spying and quits? How come the woman is the one who cares too much about her own victims and takes wild risks to protect the man she married and get him to safety? How come the son figures out something shady's going on while the daughter's just an oblivious teenager thinking about her friends and watching movies? Why is the wife pathetically in love with this guy who doesn't care about her back and is such a toxic presence in the family? 

Of course, once you get into the victims of their machinations everyone's a victim. Martha certainly was. But she was also strong enough to go on with life alone while Gregory was more like Elizabeth and only had the Cause. He had nothing to live for without Elizabeth, much. Kimmy was being duped by Jim but never became an idiot since he actually was a healthy person for her. She wasn't like Martha who was doing things she knew she didn't really want to do to keep a man. She was recognizing someone who treated her well and who she eventually rather outgrew.

I would disagree that Nina was really a victim in the end. But she got herself into that position by smuggling things and eventually got herself out by making the same type decision as Oleg, Philip and the rest. She did what she thought was right despite knowing it would get her into trouble. She was punished for it, but so was everyone else. Her story was about her deciding to stop doing whatever she had to do to live another day and stand up for what she believed in--she made herself free.

Good point about role switching... I think that's a valid point.  However, I think Gregory not wanting to go to the Soviet Union was more about knowing he'd have a impossible time in a nation where they still to this day have to discipline soccer crowds for outward displays of racism.  Remember too, that Philip slept with Kimmy and she was right back under his thumb until he had that last crisis of conscience and warned her off going to a communist country.  Their dynamic evolved because Philip had evolved more than any great epiphany of her own.

Also with Nina, remember it wasn't like she chose to face certain prison like Oleg... she sold out that poor Belgian woman and then took a calculated risk for the scientist.  She was legitimately surprised when they executed her so it's hard to say whether she believed she'd keep getting a pass for her charm and beauty and get another slap on the wrist... or whether she knew she might die.  Seeing her reaction at the sentence... I think it might have been the former.  She was empathetic and compassionate... but not really any sort of freedom fighter.

I think that's a strong point of the show though, a lot of questions that may never be answered clearly.

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Interesting question! I think BB, because that's how the writers started.

Yeah, I think it's like deciding whether to watch Star Wars 4,5,6 before 1,2,3.

Better to watch 4,5,6, first.

[SoMuchTV]

5 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

If I wanted to watch BB or BCS, which one should I watch first?  I think BB?

Thanks!

Oh, good question!  (And probably one that a mod should move to a different thread.)  I think most people who watch BCS have already watched BB, (I have), but I would like to have the retroactive opportunity to watch BCS first.  (But, as far as I know, there hasn't been a final season announced for BCS, so we aren't to the end of that, which leads up to the beginning of BB.)  I would say, whichever you do, try to avoid spoilers from the other.

[crgirl412]

7 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

Good point about role switching... I think that's a valid point.  However, I think Gregory not wanting to go to the Soviet Union was more about knowing he'd have a impossible time in a nation where they still to this day have to discipline soccer crowds for outward displays of racism.  Remember too, that Philip slept with Kimmy and she was right back under his thumb until he had that last crisis of conscience and warned her off going to a communist country.  Their dynamic evolved because Philip had evolved more than any great epiphany of her own.

Also with Nina, remember it wasn't like she chose to face certain prison like Oleg... she sold out that poor Belgian woman and then took a calculated risk for the scientist.  She was legitimately surprised when they executed her so it's hard to say whether she believed she'd keep getting a pass for her charm and beauty and get another slap on the wrist... or whether she knew she might die.  Seeing her reaction at the sentence... I think it might have been the former.  She was empathetic and compassionate... but not really any sort of freedom fighter.

I think that's a strong point of the show though, a lot of questions that may never be answered clearly.

Yeah, I think it's like deciding whether to watch Star Wars 4,5,6 before 1,2,3.

Better to watch 4,5,6, first.

HA!!!!  I had Star Wars in mind when I asked that question!! 

[SusanSunflower]

It was strangely done.  I really expected Elizabeth's epiphany/thawing/reawakening to being human to come as a result of training her daughter to be amoral, inhumane and pragmatic (just shut up and follow the orders will ya?).  I guess I'm more sentimental than I admit.   Not with Erica and her art lessons before dying or via some Phillip mojo/magic -- who also needed an "epiphany" about what a bad father (and husband) he was being by allowing this "Henry is your department" division of the labor and responsibilities.   Writers had many threads and avenues to take to reunite Phil and Elizabeth as a (badly frayed) couple (3 years of Phillip as rather unneeded and unwelcome persona non grata to the Paige/Elizabeth dyad ... with Henry some how connecting via speakerphone).   IOW,  Aside from the miracle of Elizabeth's reawakened humanity,  there's also the magically repaired marriage and the kids seemingly not recognizing the marital estrangement (even if they separated a few years ago).  I'm guessing they had sex maybe twice in those 3 skippped year ... once as a reward and once as an inducement, both initiated by E.  Chilly stuff. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Erin9]

Re: Star Wars—- watch 4-6 first. Personally, I couldn’t stand 1-3, but if someone wants to watch the whole saga- watch it in the order it was made. Otherwise, it’s totally ruined imo. That was totally OT, and I have nothing to add on the actual original post subject. SW got my attention though. Lol 

[Erin9]

48 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

It was strangely done.  I really expected Elizabeth's epiphany/thawing/reawakening to being human to come as a result of training her daughter to be amoral, inhumane and pragmatic (just shut up and follow the orders will ya?).  I guess I'm more sentimental than I admit.   Not with Erica and her art lessons before dying or via some Phillip mojo/magic -- who also needed an "epiphany" about what a bad father (and husband) he was being by allowing this "Henry is your department" division of the labor and responsibilities.   Writers had many threads and avenues to take to reunite Phil and Elizabeth as a (badly frayed) couple (3 years of Phillip as rather unneeded and unwelcome persona non grata to the Paige/Elizabeth dyad ... with Henry some how connecting via speakerphone).   IOW,  Aside from the miracle of Elizabeth's reawakened humanity,  there's also the magically repaired marriage and the kids seemingly not recognizing the marital estrangement (even if they separated a few years ago).  I'm guessing they had sex maybe twice in those 3 skippped year ... once as a reward and once as an inducement, both initiated by E.  Chilly stuff. 

 

I never though Philip stopped interacting with Paige as Paige’s father. He obviously still saw her and talked to her. He stayed out of her spy training until he couldn’t anymore. And Elizabeth certainly could have been a bigger presence in Henry’s life. Philip would never stop her. What exactly the deal was they worked out, IDK, but Elizabeth chose to not engage with Henry. Remember Philip trying to get her to go to Henry’s game? 

Henry was well aware his parents weren’t getting along when he visited. Paige knew it too; it wasn’t as clear to her as it was to him imo because she saw both of them all the time. But they both saw the tension. 

I would hardly say their marriage was magically repaired. What they  did was decide to stay together. That was what E getting the rings, giving P the ring, and E noting they’d adjust was about. It wasn’t magically fixed imo. They just agreed they were in it together. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Erin9

[jrlr]

1 hour ago, crgirl412 said:

If I wanted to watch BB or BCS, which one should I watch first?  I think BB?

Thanks!

What are BB and BCS?  

[crgirl412]

21 minutes ago, jrlr said:

What are BB and BCS?  

Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul.

[SusanSunflower]

I'm not quickly forgiving .... as apparently Phillip is .... if Claudia had considered me or my spouse "disposable" as I think she did wrt involving Elizabeth in the coup,  I'd have killed her.  If Elizabeth,  (my "wife") had endangered my child and/or lied to me about so many things, while I might "go through the motions" until the crisis was other,  I would not forgive.  I don't think that "life in Russia" is going to be easy for Elizabeth, in large part because Phillip will no longer be muzzled and hamstrung by fear of displeasing "The Centre" (further) by displeasing Elizabeth.  Oleg said that Elizabeth's extreme "loyalty" to the cause could be used against her ... and it was ... but for years it was her Ace in the Hole. I'm guessing Phillip will not be willing to be so complacent and "forgiving" and Elizabeth will need to actually .... y'know ... discuss and argue things collaboratively, rather than wielding that great billy-club of being the #1 MVP. 

It will be interesting for her ... even if they both go teach at Charm School, for example, to be judged "on merit" rather than being "the favorite" which has bought her a lot of power in the past.  Worse will be Philip discovering his own worth and talents when evaluated on his "merits" and not as the lesser partner.   Or so I can dream  .... 

Oh, and afaict, Claudia's not dead. 

Edited June 7, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[MisterBluxom]

52 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul.

I agree but for different reasons.

My recollection is that BB has many more episodes than does BCS - at least so far. Watching BB is a highly immersive and very exhausting experience - and I mean that in a good way.

As I recall, I spent several days watching BB and much of that time was spent in very long "overnight" sessions. I was so captivated - so immersed in the story - that I chose to go without sleep rather than risk missing episodes. I found there were a few parts of the story that were extremely "immersive". By that I mean that I found the story so "gripping" that I chose to watch it over eating and sleeping.

So ... after an experience like that, it was much easier to enjoy BCS because it was a far more intellectual experience. I spent much more time thinking about the story and enjoying many of the twists and turns. BB was like a big explosion. BCS was like a roller coaster ride - always full of twists and turns - but very enjoyable twists and turns. Some people are bound to disagree. These have been my own personal opinions. But the bottom line is that I love both shows. Both shows are in my "all time" favorite list.  By the way, if you like these shows, I would recommend Law & Order (the original series)  to you. It's not really very similar to either BB or BCS. But they all share many common ideas  and most every aspect of the production are all "top notch" in all these shows.  The only thing I didn't like was the opening silly joke in L&O. I always found that to be just kind of silly.

Edited June 7, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Erin9]

I have to add: when Philip and Elizabeth kept driving and driving, I started to worry the ending was going to that open ended, I was pretty relieved when Philip (should I saw Mischa? Lol) asked Arkady to pull over.  Those last moments looking at Moscow were huge. 

[MisterBluxom]

53 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I'm not quickly forgiving .... as apparently Phillip is .... if Claudia had considered me or my spouse "disposable" as I think she did wrt involving Elizabeth in the coup,  I'd have killed her.  If Elizabeth,  (my "wife") had endangered my child and/or lied to me about so many things, while I might "go through the motions" until the crisis was other,  I would not forgive.  I don't think that "life in Russia" is going to be easy for Elizabeth, in large part because Phillip will no longer be muzzled and hamstrung by fear of displeasing "The Centre" (further) by displeasing Elizabeth.  Oleg said that Elizabeth's extreme "loyalty" to the cause could be used against her ... and it was ... but for years it was her Ace in the Hole. I'm guessing Phillip will not be willing to be so complacent and "forgiving" and Elizabeth will need to actually .... y'know ... discuss and argue things collaboratively, rather than wielding that great billy-club of being the #1 MVP. 

It will be interesting for her ... even if they both go teach at Charm School, for example, to be judged "on merit" rather than being "the favorite" which has bought her a lot of power in the past.  Worse will be Philip discovering his own worth and talents when evaluated on his "merits" and not as the lesser partner.   Or so I can dream  .... 

Oh, and afaict, Claudia's not dead. 

 

I can't imagine the show runners would decide that Clodia is dead and not take advantage of that by showing us an extremely nasty death scene. If anyone ever deserved a nasty death - IMHO - it would be Clodia.  I would have enjoyed seeing Elizabeth stealing a truck and running her over.

Edited June 7, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

If I wanted to watch BB or BCS, which one should I watch first?  I think BB?

Thanks!

Breaking Bad, beyond a doubt.

[SusanSunflower]

It will be Claudia's narrative versus Elizabeth's narrative wrt to the coup at some point ....  Elizabeth likely has nothing to prove her argument ... and change of heart, etc. 

The hardliners will close rank and play dirty (as we know they can and will manufacture evidence) ... 

I also wonder how Elizabeth will explain "Where's Paige?" 

She's been such a prima donna/MVP (while Phillip has more experience being doubted and questioned) it will be an enormous amount of stress I suspect even if Arkady gives his 100% support

Read a book/saw a show a long time ago the premise of which was someone who "infiltrated" a coup and then was unable to convince TPTB that he was not part of the plot ... that just having been a willing participant (before blowing the whistle was considered indicative of a treasonous inclination.  (might have been Valkyrie, no memory of context, but any "contact" was damning so the individual lived with a stigma he could not entirely shake ... years ago. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

If I wanted to watch BB or BCS, which one should I watch first?  I think BB?

Thanks!

 

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

Interesting question! I think BB, because that's how the writers started.

I agree with everyone else--watch BB first. It's not only made first but it comes first narratively too. BCS has a frame that makes it a flashback.

3 hours ago, Sentient Meat said:

Good point about role switching... I think that's a valid point.  However, I think Gregory not wanting to go to the Soviet Union was more about knowing he'd have a impossible time in a nation where they still to this day have to discipline soccer crowds for outward displays of racism.  Remember too, that Philip slept with Kimmy and she was right back under his thumb until he had that last crisis of conscience and warned her off going to a communist country.  Their dynamic evolved because Philip had evolved more than any great epiphany of her own.

I don't remember Gregory saying a word about thinking the USSR being racist. He'd have a lot of explaining to do if that was his impression--why on earth is he working for them?  It sold itself as less racist than the US (not true, but that was the idea) and Elizabeth clearly believed that PR. He  was really being offered a much better future than Martha, teaching people to help the Cause he spent his life serving. He preferred a martyr's death but Martha soldiered on and even found a purpose.

What I mean about Kimmy is that we know she's a victim, of course, but there's no point in their relationship where she's ever doing anything where she's hurting herself, imo. Jim's always supportive of her. He respects her and takes her seriously. She's genuinely getting something good out of it. Had he tricked her into going to Bulgaria she would obviously have been victimized by him but I wouldn't describe her as under his thumb just because she wanted to sleep him. Since Philip doesn't go forward with the plot after that she walks away without having been really been damaged.

3 hours ago, Sentient Meat said:

Also with Nina, remember it wasn't like she chose to face certain prison like Oleg... she sold out that poor Belgian woman and then took a calculated risk for the scientist.  She was legitimately surprised when they executed her so it's hard to say whether she believed she'd keep getting a pass for her charm and beauty and get another slap on the wrist... or whether she knew she might die.  Seeing her reaction at the sentence... I think it might have been the former.  She was empathetic and compassionate... but not really any sort of freedom fighter.

She didn't have to be a freedom fighter imo. She was a person who didn't like what she was becoming by betraying the the Belgian woman etc. and chose to take a big risk by trying to help the scientist because she thought it was right. Whether or not she knew execution specifically would follow, she was choosing to act out of something other than self-protection no matter who got hurt.  I definitely didn't see any evidence the thought she'd get a pass for her charm and beauty. Being sent to Siberia isn't a slap on the wrist. She had to know there would be serious consequences.

 

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

It was strangely done.  I really expected Elizabeth's epiphany/thawing/reawakening to being human to come as a result of training her daughter to be amoral, inhumane and pragmatic (just shut up and follow the orders will ya?). 

It somewhat had happened, I suppose, since Elizabeth was trying protect her from those things even while she was training her. That is, she was avoiding having to confront that problem through denial.

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Aside from the miracle of Elizabeth's reawakened humanity,  there's also the magically repaired marriage and the kids seemingly not recognizing the marital estrangement (even if they separated a few years ago).  I'm guessing they had sex maybe twice in those 3 skippped year ... once as a reward and once as an inducement, both initiated by E.  Chilly stuff. 

I honestly didn't see it as magically repaired at all. The people we see at the start of the season aren't really either of them being themselves. They've turned themselves into people who aren't quite right and have lost exactly the thing the other person has too much of now. Both of them have also just become a lot worse due to circumstances. But Philip's still the only person who can get through to her.

They'd still presumably have a lot to work out, but they're solid enough that they can drop all that in a crisis and concentrate on what's important, as I think they've done before. Plus they ultimately do still have the same values. 

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

  I don't think that "life in Russia" is going to be easy for Elizabeth, in large part because Phillip will no longer be muzzled and hamstrung by fear of displeasing "The Centre" (further) by displeasing Elizabeth.  Oleg said that Elizabeth's extreme "loyalty" to the cause could be used against her ... and it was ... but for years it was her Ace in the Hole. I'm guessing Phillip will not be willing to be so complacent and "forgiving" and Elizabeth will need to actually .... y'know ... discuss and argue things collaboratively, rather than wielding that great billy-club of being the #1 MVP. 

He wasn't that hamstrung by that before, was he? If he was why would he have blown up the Kimmy plan or pulled Martha out or spied on Elizabeth? Philip picks his battles but when he has picked one he's very able to hold his ground. In fact, he often wins.

 

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

It will be interesting for her ... even if they both go teach at Charm School, for example, to be judged "on merit" rather than being "the favorite" which has bought her a lot of power in the past.  Worse will be Philip discovering his own worth and talents when evaluated on his "merits" and not as the lesser partner.   Or so I can dream  .... 

Everyone on the show always did favor Elizabeth because of her loyalty but Gabriel a few times seemed to imply that Philip's value was that he was really talented. These hints are few and far between but it does seem like the idea is that there was a Henry/Paige situation there where Elizabeth was the "heart" and Philip was the "head." Even though it might seem like it would be the opposite from their personalities.

[Sentient Meat]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

I don't remember Gregory saying a word about thinking the USSR being racist. He'd have a lot of explaining to do if that was his impression--why on earth is he working for them?  It sold itself as less racist than the US (not true, but that was the idea) and Elizabeth clearly believed that PR. He  was really being offered a much better future than Martha, teaching people to help the Cause he spent his life serving. He preferred a martyr's death but Martha soldiered on and even found a purpose.

What I mean about Kimmy is that we know she's a victim, of course, but there's no point in their relationship where she's ever doing anything where she's hurting herself, imo. Jim's always supportive of her. He respects her and takes her seriously. She's genuinely getting something good out of it. Had he tricked her into going to Bulgaria she would obviously have been victimized by him but I wouldn't describe her as under his thumb just because she wanted to sleep him. Since Philip doesn't go forward with the plot after that she walks away without having been really been damaged.

My point was that Kimmy, although a sweet sympathetic character was always at the mercy of Philip.  I'm sure if this wasn't a major cable network show, he would have slept with her when she was 15... and he did so at 18 for equally egregious reasons.  Philip alone kept her relatively safe... it wasn't through any actions of her own... and naturally so considering we are talking about a wealthy, suburban latchkey teenager and not a worldly adult.

Maybe I brought too much of my personal knowledge as I am a huge European football fan... but I thought Gregory implied pretty clearly that he wouldn't blend like someone such as Martha might.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/24/russia-neo-nazi-football-hooligans-world-cup