S06.E10: START

[Umbelina]

I wonder what happens to Stavros.  Is he a full citizen or does he only have his green card?

Philip said to him that it's better that he fired him now, gave him more of a chance.  Really though?  In light of what happened, it could place him under a great deal more suspicion to the US government.  Was he fired to hide his KGB connections, because Philip and Elizabeth knew they were about to blow the country? 

Either way, as the longest employee and one fired just days before his KGB murderous bosses fled?  He's going to have a microscope on him as well.  As will, of course, the Pastor's.  Liz and Phil's trail of destruction continues.

Dang @sistermagpie, I'm so trying to avoid real world issues right now, most of which are currently kind of horrifying, and I wrote that long post, which, on reflection, I quite liked, something I can't say about all of my posts...and you only quoted and responded to one tiny line.  I will miss you, since we don't really watch any other shows on PTV, and when I saw you had quoted me I was looking forward to your responses, critical, or in agreement, didn't matter.  I especially liked my stuff about Stan and second place was the part about how ludicrous it is to imagine Paige standing up under questioning.  ;~)  My least favorite was why Paige got off the train, but that's the part you quoted.

/message board while avoiding real life problems.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Umbelina

[SusanSunflower]

I decided that Stavos was an embezzler (why the travel agency was in financial trouble) which -- who was discovered by KGB or maybe FBI auditors -- putting Phillip in a mildly difficult position because of Stavos' suspicions of  illegal activity (drugs/money smuggling)  but effectively shutting him up ... anyway, Stavos's crime discovered, some restitution made maybe, and the agency can be sold for a goodly amount trading on location and years in business. 

Edited June 16, 2018 by SusanSunflower
realized FBI auditors were more likely now that P&E have fled.

[SusanSunflower]

About the timeline .... we missed Paige graduating high school (vaguely 2 years unseen?) getting into college, moving to her apartment (the other year I think) until our story resumed ... which is the time when she should have matured and spent 3 years talking to her mother about her future in general and in the KGB as she passed through young adult milestones and problem solving. 

I think the garage scene might well have been pretty much fully formed before Paige as super-spy was abandoned ... even as far as stepping off the train taking mom and dad to Moscow. 

The problem of Paige continuing as KGB (*) would be malevolent Claudia (and/or whomever is in charge now) wrt the Jennings and more maddening who-knows-what. 

* because she still believes in the motherland 

[Dev F]

On 6/13/2018 at 12:44 PM, sistermagpie said:

Stan running up there ahead of the FBI, while impossible (the FBI was already watching the school--Henry would not be at hockey practice at that point), makes Stan look even more suspicious than Henry. It certainly shows that once again the FBI's and Stan's interests are not the same. 

Since, as you mention, the episode makes a point of telling us that the FBI already had its eyes on the school, I wouldn't assume that Stan somehow managed to approach Henry in defiance of the Bureau's wishes. I'd imagine that he asked to be the one to tell the poor kid the truth and the FBI let him do it. Certainly, the FBI seems to have moved on from covertly staking out locations the Jenningses might visit by the time they're tossing the family home in the middle of the day in full view of the neighbors, so it's not like they could've been confident in keeping Henry in the dark for much longer.

Could that transition from stakeout to public investigation have been clearer? Sure. But a lot of the stuff in the last couple acts seems pretty deliberately stripped down, fudging the procedural details so the emotional core is as clear as possible. For instance, I thought the most heartbreaking moment in the episode was when Elizabeth throws Henry's passport into the dirt, but it doesn't really make sense that they'd have emergency escape documentation for their son that featured what the recap called "not remotely an acceptable passport photo but clearly a Jostens number from Henry's public school." Yet at the same time, that moment wouldn't have been nearly as devastating if Elizabeth had opened the passport and it took us a few seconds to realize that the kid in the photo was supposed to be Henry in disguise. So I'm not apt to get too upset at the fudginess, and in the same way I can see why they might not have wanted to dilute the final Stan/Henry encounter by fussing over where the other FBI agents were and what they'd be doing.

On 6/14/2018 at 11:37 AM, Plums said:

Yeah, at the outset, The Americans was established as depicting the lives and operations of illegal spies as way more dangerous and violent than they really were during the Cold War, and this was treated as SOP by the characters. I accepted that dramatic license with history the premise took, and from there, the most important thing for me is that it never became internally inconsistent with the established rules, and the characters stayed true, which, if either of those things were violated in service of a story that felt inorganic, would have really have bugged me. But I never felt that way.

That's exactly how I feel about it. And I think one of the reasons it was never an issue for me is because so many shows diverge from reality in one way or another when it comes to death and violence. Part of parsing pretty much any series with an action component is working out where the lines are and what they're meant to say about the characters. Heck, even something as simple and innocuous as Murder She Wrote makes no sense unless you accept that homicidal violence is so much more commonplace than in real life that an elderly novelist will randomly stumble onto a different killing every week without becoming horribly traumatized or cynical.

4 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Paige is naive and, until the finale, in willful denial. She's not intellectually challenged, even if the writers sometimes stretched credibility in exactly how naive they made her. Plus the finale suggests that she's taken a leap forward in terms of maturity.

Exactly. Since the finale shows us a Paige who's finally willing to face the ugliness in her life instead of pretending she's just a normal kid and trailing after her latest trusted authority figure, I don't think we can assume that she's going to face the FBI with her previous compliant naïveté.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

On the contrary, the writers tried for YEARS to shove it down our throats that Paige was intelligent, wise beyond her years, and even that "Paige has a Russian Soul" which would imply an emotional and deep knowledge of so many things. Honestly, does anything in this scream "PAIGE!" to you?  https://understandrussia.com/russian-soul/  '

What happened is, the actress simply couldn't pull that off.

What happened, it seems to me, was that the series never, at any point, portrayed Paige as intelligent or wise beyond her years, and was completely consistent in depicting her as deeply damaged and codependent. I honestly don't know why folks get hung up on random interview quotes about superspy Paige when the show itself so clearly contradicts them.

And it seems especially odd to keep dwelling on supposed authorial intent now that the series is over. I've mentioned before that it makes some sense to fret about weird things the writers say when there's a chance they might incorporate those oddities into future scripts. But now there will never be any future scripts; if the authors say something that contradicts how you or I read the show, what difference does it make?

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I can see the annoyance at the show leaving Paige's (and, arguably, everyone else's) fate up in the air, but is it really a problem that a character motivation might remain ambiguous? That's generally considered to be a characteristic of some of the best writing, not a sign of not giving a shit. Like, people have written books about why exactly Ahab cares so much about that damned whale

Yeah, to me it's not even that the ending is ambiguous -- I have a pretty clear sense of what I think the finale is saying about the characters and their likely futures. The ending just isn't prescriptive, spelling out what everyone's takeaway is supposed to be. Of course, that means everyone's going to have a different interpretation of the ending, and some people are going to read the characters' fates as more ambiguous than I do. But I certainly don't think it would be better if the writers were super literal about where every character ended up; that wouldn't be at all in keeping with the heavily thematic and literary approach the show pursued for six seasons.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Dang @sistermagpie, I'm so trying to avoid real world issues right now, most of which are currently kind of horrifying, and I wrote that long post, which, on reflection, I quite liked, something I can't say about all of my posts...and you only quoted and responded to one tiny line.  I will miss you, since we don't really watch any other shows on PTV, and when I saw you had quoted me I was looking forward to your responses, critical, or in agreement, didn't matter.  I especially liked my stuff about Stan and second place was the part about how ludicrous it is to imagine Paige standing up under questioning.  ;~)  My least favorite was why Paige got off the train, but that's the part you quoted.

/message board while avoiding real life problems.

 

Ack! I know how that feels. I couldn't think of anything to add!

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

Since, as you mention, the episode makes a point of telling us that the FBI already had its eyes on the school, I wouldn't assume that Stan somehow managed to approach Henry in defiance of the Bureau's wishes.

Oh, of course. Stan could never have snuck in there to tell him. I just think that's one of the unrealistic things we're seeing in the episode. The show obviously wanted a personal scene where Stan the person gets to tell the kid he knows the truth, just as Philip wanted. You wouldn't even know that this would have a legal context from watching the scene. If you do do remember that the FBI would have a large stake in this you wind up with another instance where the FBI, too, puts the feelings the Jennings kids above everything else.

Of course not everyone is going to have a problem with that choice--the show just isn't about FBI investigations. It's about the character relationships. But the FBI investigation is also there and if you do think about it it's unlikely and a reversal of the concerns about Henry being "torn apart" earlier imo. (Or it's supposed to be a solution to it--Henry won't be torn apart because Stan's magically able to step in.) I don't think it's on the level of accepting that Jessica Fletcher is going to stumble onto a murder every week, exactly, since real-world consequences for the Illegals are also part of the show. They do want *some* realism on that side of things.

That's a risk in an ep that has a lot of stuff going down. I have a friend who's not someone who much cares about this sort of plot consequence but the first thing she asked after the finale was weren't Philip and Elizabeth going to be murdered by the coup people back in the USSR--because that is there in the episode too! She could tell that the last scene wasn't setting that up but it was an obvious worry in her mind.

Quote

What happened, it seems to me, was that the series never, at any point, portrayed Paige as intelligent or wise beyond her years, and was completely consistent in depicting her as deeply damaged and codependent. I honestly don't know why folks get hung up on random interview quotes about superspy Paige when the show itself so clearly contradicts them.

Yeah, that story really just didn't exist anywhere on the show. Whatever happened in interviews on the show we had a story of a mother and daughter in a shared dance of denial in a misguided attempt to bond. (It was sort of an echo of the earlier story where Elizabeth went to church with Paige--but there Paige recognized that her mother didn't really like church, even if she never openly admitted to understanding how hostile to it Elizabeth was and how dishonest she was being by going.) Elizabeth tried to drag Paige into her world by making her a spy and having afternoons with Claudia and giving her tough lectures. Paige tried to bring Elizabeth into her world by trying to use this stuff to find connections between them that didn't depend on espionage or Russia. But Paige clearly thought that she had to buy everything her mother was selling to have that bond because otherwise she wouldn't be good enough and Elizabeth felt she had to lie about a lot of what she did because Paige wouldn't truly understand it. In the end they didn't find a way to meet in the honest middle and wound up in different worlds.

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And it seems especially odd to keep dwelling on supposed authorial intent now that the series is over. I've mentioned before that it makes some sense to fret about weird things the writers say when there's a chance they might incorporate those oddities into future scripts. But now there will never be any future scripts; if the authors say something that contradicts how you or I read the show, what difference does it make?

Yeah, I never sought out a lot of interviews with the showrunners anyway but I'm glad that the for me the finale dismissed any worries I had about what was going to happen based on interviews or PR. I don't see what some do, where they had ideas that didn't work and then switched gears. It really feels like though they sometimes deviated from their intention once they started writing/filming, the characters and plot trajectories are very consistent and trackable from beginning to end.

Quote

Yeah, to me it's not even that the ending is ambiguous -- I have a pretty clear sense of what I think the finale is saying about the characters and their likely futures. The ending just isn't prescriptive, spelling out what everyone's takeaway is supposed to be. Of course, that means everyone's going to have a different interpretation of the ending, and some people are going to read the characters' fates as more ambiguous than I do. But I certainly don't think it would be better if the writers were super literal about where every character ended up; that wouldn't be at all in keeping with the heavily thematic and literary approach the show pursued for six seasons.

Also it feels to me like some of the characters themselves don't know what's going to happen so it's not ambiguous that we don't know. We end with the two characters who are most able to face what lies ahead and since it's their story that determines where the end is. Where Philip and Elizabeth's story naturally ends is in a moment where other characters would be in freefall as a result. It still seems best to me to end it at the organic end for P&E, just as we started it.

In fact, this made me realize that maybe part of the reason I did even think about the Stan/Henry scene being unrealistic is I think that for me it leans to heavily into a positive place for Stan in a way that dismisses the more negative ramifications. It's like the way Stan himself would want to see it.

Edited June 17, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh, of course. Stan could never have snuck in there to tell him. I just think that's one of the unrealistic things we're seeing in the episode. The show obviously wanted a personal scene where Stan the person gets to tell the kid he knows the truth, just as Philip wanted.

Yeah, they clearly also wanted to emphasize that Stan was choosing to focus on Henry over his suspicions about Renee and the FBI investigation by showing him driving very, very far away from all that and ending up totally in Henry's world. I can see why they might've thought it would step on their point if he gets all the way to New Hampshire only to meet up with other FBI guys. Then it wouldn't be as clear that this was a personal connection as opposed to a professional obligation.

And every time I try to think of a way they could've clarified -- say, by establishing that the FBI was indeed listening in on Henry's dorm phone and thus had reason to believe by the next morning that the Jenningses were abandoning their son -- it just bogs things down with more questions about timing and procedure and whatnot. It wasn't the cleanest storytelling ever, and maybe there was some way to sharpen it that I haven't thought of, but I've yet to hit on an alternative I like better -- certainly not anything that would alter the main thrust of Stan's story, which I think is pretty perfect.

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Also it feels to me like some of the characters themselves don't know what's going to happen so it's not ambiguous that we don't know. We end with the two characters who are most able to face what lies ahead and since it's their story that determines where the end is. Where Philip and Elizabeth's story naturally ends is in a moment where other characters would be in freefall as a result. It still seems best to me to end it at the organic end for P&E, just as we started it.

Well said. That's especially true when it comes to Paige and Henry, since the whole point is that P&E are basically the married couple whose kids have left the nest -- hopeful that they've raised them well enough the thrive on their own, but fearful of what might happen to them without their parents' protection.

[Umbelina]

It wasn't only in interviews that Paige was referred to as smart, capable, knows her own mind, can handle "it" meaning anything, mature, etc.  Philip and Elizabeth both said that, ALL the time.

As for why dissecting it now? 

Because I was waiting to see if they ending made the numerous other oddities, like Paige, like season 5, like Elizabeth's murder spree make any sense at all to the over all show once it was finally ENDED.

No.  They did not.

[SusanSunflower]

The interviews, particularly Holly's, raise real questions about what she was told about her character, particularly given how unconvincing she often was ... which became an audience issue ... 

Given the ambiguity of the writing and the writer's interviews, I'm completely willing to give Holly Taylor a complete pass ... but like an itch that won't go away, I'm still trying to figure out where this show -- imho, ymmv - really went off the rails (afaict) chasing some Paige-mini-me-super-spy storyline that never worked ... seriously, wtf. ... and I don't get a Moffat/Gattis put-down-that-coke-spoon indulgence ... rather a dedicated-to-my-darlings blindness. 

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It wasn't only in interviews that Paige was referred to as smart, capable, knows her own mind, can handle "it" meaning anything, mature, etc.  Philip and Elizabeth both said that, ALL the time.

Did they? The main times I remember the parents stating really adamantly that Paige was really smart or capable and strong or even knows her own mind etc. it seemed like they were being biased. Sometimes the very thing they say about her they say the opposite. It's hard for me to remember times the parents say something like that where it doesn't seem bound up in whatever the parent needed or wanted in that moment.

When I try to think of times the show tried to objectively tell me that Paige is exceptionally intelligent or capable of handling this sort of thing it almost seems like the opposite. In his diary Pastor Tim isn't sure how she's going to turn out in the long run. Once Henry takes an interest in school his grades are immediately better than Paige's. There's even a scene in S6 where the guy in the bar tries to flatter her by being impressed that she goes to Georgetown, making Paige have to correct him that she goes to the less competitive George Washington. They chose to make her a conscientious student who still wasn't that extraordinary.

It's Henry, not Paige, who's handed a challenge and solves it himself. Henry is also the one who seems to get a lot of objective evidence for him being smart or impressive: his math teacher wants to skip him a grade, the school gives him a scholarship, he's not worried about his tests and is taking AP Calculus as a junior, he has a cheering section at hockey games, the coach says he's a shoe-in for team captain.

The one thing that Paige is good at from the start is zeroing in on her parents' lies. That's the one area where she's obviously got brains and the instinct to see a secret behind it all. But even there she seems much better at noting the flaws in their story than she is in dealing with the story itself once she had it. In fact, at the end of the series she in some way is right back where she started in terms of not understanding her parents.

[Umbelina]

I'm not going to go back and count all the times, but I may keep a notepad handy if ever I rewatch it.

This season, one that specifically stands out is Philip telling Elizabeth, he KNOWS Paige can handle it, Paige can handle ANYTHING.  It may have been when Elizabeth was expressing very covered doubts, or it may have been another time, where Philip says that (about spying) I KNOW she CAN do it, I'm not sure if she SHOULD do it.

It was endless really.

I did love Paige getting off that train though, great scene.  She's better stone faced and silent, letting the pros do all the emoting.

Repeating myself once more about this, so I'm super clear.

I loved the episode, had it been a penultimate episode I really would have loved it.  Had there been a very long montage at the end or other kinds of resolve for someone?  I would have loved it.   As a finale, especially with the lead in episodes (season 5 and season 6) it just blows.  Most annoying is that they didn't need to leave all the characters in peril.  It's not that they needed to answer everything, and I know most season finales suck.  It's that they deliberate chose to leave them all in peril and then did some smoochy ending with Philip and Elizabeth overlooking the lights of a Soviet city.

If the only peril had been "yike's!  we are caught!  better leave now~" I'd be very cool with this ending, and the idea that Philip and Elizabeth were safe in the USSR.  Instead, many powerful people in the USSR will want them dead, revenge or to avoid having themselves implicated in coup planning.  If Paige hadn't been there when Stan let them go, and especially if Paige hadn't become the inept lame stupid future full out KBG spy?  Again, I'd be cool with that ending, she wouldn't have committed treason or been involved with murders, she'd probably be let go if all she did was know about mom and dad and not tell, at worst, she might be given the option of forfeiting her passport and leaving, but I doubt even that much.  If Henry had his school paid for by scholarships?  Cool, kid will be OK, he can hope for college scholarships and get a job too.  If Stan's wife hadn't been KGB, and Paige hadn't been there to WITNESS Stan letting them go?  Stan would be OK too.  If they hadn't just killed 3 FBI agents and Stan's Teacups brutally?  It would be so much more believable for Stan to let them go as well.

As it is, nobody is OK.  Yet we get this sappy final scene.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Umbelina

[Milburn Stone]

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

And it seems especially odd to keep dwelling on supposed authorial intent now that the series is over. I've mentioned before that it makes some sense to fret about weird things the writers say when there's a chance they might incorporate those oddities into future scripts. But now there will never be any future scripts; if the authors say something that contradicts how you or I read the show, what difference does it make?

I first became aware of never wanting to read author interviews--and hating it when I was exposed to them second-hand--during Mad Men. Matthew Weiner would create a gem of an episode, and then indicate by what he said in an interview that he didn't understand what his own show was about. His interviews didn't ruin the show, because the show still stood, independent of his obtuseness; but it was annoying. Or maybe revealing of a surprising truth: that a writer's creative brain can be a genius while his explaining brain can be a dolt. (Or that PR-oriented journalism--and all such journalism is at root PR-oriented--is a fundamentally flawed form for the purpose.)

I don't think doltishness is any part of the Weisberg-Fields brain, but I do remain convinced of the absolute uselessness/harmfulness of exposure to external material about a show's or character's meaning. What's on the screen is what tells us the meaning.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Milburn Stone

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

I first became aware of never wanting to read author interviews--and hating it when I was exposed to them second-hand--during Mad Men. Matthew Weiner would create a gem of an episode, and then indicate by what he said in an interview that he didn't understand what his own show was about. His interviews didn't ruin the show, because the show still stood, independent of his obtuseness; but it was annoying. Or maybe revealing of a surprising truth: that a writer's creative brain can be a genius while his explaining brain can be a dolt. (Or that PR-oriented journalism--and all such journalism is at root PR-oriented--is a fundamentally flawed form for the purpose.)

I don't think doltishness is any part of the Weisberg-Fields brain, but I do remain convinced of the absolute uselessness/harmfulness of exposure to external material about a show's or character's meaning. What's on the screen is what tells us the meaning.

I tend to agree with you that just sticking to what is on screen is advisable, although I will say that an interview I read with Emmerich was very revealing. I read Emmerich talking about Stan's first marriage ending in divorce being a shocker, because it was such a happy marriage, and it became painfully obvious to me that either nobody had researched this character at all, or the research was done, and then totally ignored. It really explained to me how some mistakes were made.

It also reminded be of a decade old interview done with the recently deceased Tom Wolfe. He described the most common failing of fiction writers being a failure to really research the sort of characters that were being created, a failure to employ basic reporting techniques in descrbing the world they inhabit. 

[SunnyBeBe]

With START, I can still think of a few things that I think would have been amusing.  If it had been a 2 hour finale, maybe, they could have covered it.  I would like to see the faces of those who P and E had dealt with when their identity was discovered.  Not, just the travel agency employees, but, the guy who's wife just died. Do you think that he would have recognized E in the police photos? Or, if he did, would he speak up?  I mean, he did allow her to kill his wife.  IDK. That's a tough one. Would he just stay silent?   OR what about Young Hee and her husband? Would they have recognized E and then figured out what happened?  And, what about the young intern? Would he come forward?  Do you think that Martha's parents are still alive? Would they have recognized Clarke and his sister?

[dubbel zout]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

(Or it's supposed to be a solution to it--Henry won't be torn apart because Stan's magically able to step in.)

Henry would likely be torn apart no matter who told him, but coming from Stan, someone he knows and trusts, might make it a bit easier for Henry to believe it. And if the FBI thinks Henry knows anything, Stan might be a reassuring presence during any questioning.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

This season, one that specifically stands out is Philip telling Elizabeth, he KNOWS Paige can handle it, Paige can handle ANYTHING.  It may have been when Elizabeth was expressing very covered doubts, or it may have been another time, where Philip says that (about spying) I KNOW she CAN do it, I'm not sure if she SHOULD do it.

That's kind of what I mean, though. Philip seems like he's presented as an unreliable source when it comes to Paige. He's her dad, plus she's his daughter that reminds him of Elizabeth with whom he's in love so and he always thinks she's the best. He thought she was graceful as a child until Elizabeth corrected him that she was a klutz and he just forgot.

Philip has no idea how Paige's training is going and it seemed like that was supposed to be important because he just automatically thinks she's doing well--even though we've seen Philip be very critical of baby spies in the past. The few times Elizabeth seems to be throwing out an SOS in a small way (saying she got a name wrong without explaining just how serious this mistake was, saying that maybe Philip was "right" that she wasn't cut out for this) he defends Paige instead.

But to me it didn't seem like the show was presenting that as anything but Philip's instinctive defensiveness about his perfect little girl. I believe he was saying it after they learned about her stunt in the bar fight--which Philip initially reacted to by closing his eyes in horror. Granted, it would have been more cathartic if there was some scene that was all about blowing up this delusion on both their parts where it's made explicitly clear just how not true this is, but the choices for Paige all season seem to hit it again and again. (I think I'll do a post that's more specific in the Paige thread.) Even in this ep she's terrible standing up to Stan in the garage.

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I did love Paige getting off that train though, great scene.  She's better stone faced and silent, letting the pros do all the emoting.

Yeah, I agree. That was the best thing we could have gotten for that scene and even the last one with her. As little attempt to be specific as possible. For me it was better when we were just seeing her through the window without the close up.

4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I first became aware of never wanting to read author interviews--and hating it when I was exposed to them second-hand--during Mad Men. Matthew Weiner would create a gem of an episode, and then indicate by what he said in an interview that he didn't understand what his own show was about. His interviews didn't ruin the show, because the show still stood, independent of his obtuseness; but it was annoying. Or maybe revealing of a surprising truth: that a writer's creative brain can be a genius while his explaining brain can be a dolt. (Or that PR-oriented journalism--and all such journalism is at root PR-oriented--is a fundamentally flawed form for the purpose.)

 

I was really grateful that early on I'd listened to a director's commentary from MW and it made me really worried where it was going and then what happened on the show directly contradicted what I was afraid of. It really gave me an idea for how MW talked about scenes so I no longer had to worry about what it sounded like he was saying.

I thought about that a lot at the start of this season of The Americans whenever they talked about Paige the future spy and I wound up coming to a similar conclusion. They weren't talking like MW at all but they weren't actually telling me anything about the story that was happening on the show.

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

I tend to agree with you that just sticking to what is on screen is advisable, although I will say that an interview I read with Emmerich was very revealing. I read Emmerich talking about Stan's first marriage ending in divorce being a shocker, because it was such a happy marriage, and it became painfully obvious to me that either nobody had researched this character at all, or the research was done, and then totally ignored. It really explained to me how some mistakes were made.

Wow, he said that? That is shocking. Just based on what's onscreen I don't see why he would say it was a shock. The show basically starts with Stan unable to connect to his family at all after he's left them for 3 years. Why on earth would it be a shocker? When during the show were they actually happy? Never! Sandra tried and Stan couldn't reciprocate.

[Dev F]

On 6/17/2018 at 7:27 AM, Milburn Stone said:

I first became aware of never wanting to read author interviews--and hating it when I was exposed to them second-hand--during Mad Men. Matthew Weiner would create a gem of an episode, and then indicate by what he said in an interview that he didn't understand what his own show was about. His interviews didn't ruin the show, because the show still stood, independent of his obtuseness; but it was annoying. Or maybe revealing of a surprising truth: that a writer's creative brain can be a genius while his explaining brain can be a dolt.

Ha, I also go back to Mad Men when I'm pondering the value of a creator's hot takes. From early on, I had a very strong and specific sense of what I thought Weiner's series was doing. (In short, I read it as a show that uses the lens of advertising to explore twentieth-century America's capacity for self-deception and self-creation, with each season devoted to a particular psychological defense mechanism that Don Draper deploys to keep his demons at bay -- season 1 is denial, season 2 is dissociation/displacement, season 3 is minimization, etc.) But Weiner's commentaries and interviews rarely connected with what I saw as the main points of each episode; they were usually focused on stuff that seemed either tangential or surface-level to me, like "This episode is about the creative process" or "This episode explores our relationship to death."

I don't know, though, whether that means Weiner is an idiot savant, or whether he just found it tacky to walk the audience through his own writing in too much detail. The former seems improbable to me given how complex some of the material was that Weiner never got around to mentioning. For instance, there's a minor recurring character named Raymond whose only literal role in the series is to have strong opinions about how to sell beans, but in appearances spanning three separate seasons, every feeling he has on the subject symbolizes the feelings Don is wrestling with toward his wife Megan. It's hard to imagine that just consistently happened by accident -- and yet, like with so much else that to me was quite central to understanding the arc of the series, Weiner didn't go around making sure viewers noticed that Raymond represented the state of Don's marriage.

Weiner also had a tendency to explain character beats not from some all-knowing writerly perspective but from the point of view of the characters themselves, who tended not to be all that self aware. He'd say something like, "Don realizes that Megan will always be an artist at heart," and people would freak out at the idea that we the viewers were supposed to think dingbat Megan is this perfect woman with an artistic soul, when all he was saying is that at this particular moment in the series, Don believes that.

Ultimately, the energy we all spent parsing Weiner's words felt like wasted effort to me, never providing much insight and often keeping us from looking at what the show itself was doing because we were too busy picking over whatever dumb thing its creator just said about it. So when it came to The Americans, I was never eager to sweat Weisberg and Fields's words when we could be talking about their work instead.

On 6/17/2018 at 11:48 AM, sistermagpie said:

That's kind of what I mean, though. Philip seems like he's presented as an unreliable source when it comes to Paige. He's her dad, plus she's his daughter that reminds him of Elizabeth with whom he's in love so and he always thinks she's the best. He thought she was graceful as a child until Elizabeth corrected him that she was a klutz and he just forgot.

Exactly. It's another way in which it's important not to confuse the narrow perspective of a character with the all-knowing perspective of the writer.

 

On an unrelated note, I just watched the season 3 "Baggage" this evening, and I was amazed that I had completely forgotten about a key scene in that episode: Oleg, enraged that Stan refused to betray his country to save Nina, pulls a gun on him and orders him to get on his knees. Stan calls his bluff, telling him "You want to shoot me, shoot me in the back" and walking away. It's a much shorter encounter than the garage scene in the finale, but the beats are remarkably similar, just with Stan on the opposite side. There's even a whole part in the middle where they discuss the murder of Vlad and how Stan loved Nina and whether there's anything they can do to save her, all while Oleg has his gun pointed at Stan. Which of course still isn't evidence that the scenario could plausibly happen in real life, and maybe the same people who hated the garage scene hated that scene as well. But it does suggest that the garage confrontation is well within the parameters of plausibility established by the show itself, and not some lazy cheat the writers only resorted to once they'd burned themselves out.

[Bannon]

9 hours ago, Dev F said:

Ha, I also go back to Mad Men when I'm pondering the value of a creator's hot takes. From early on, I had a very strong and specific sense of what I thought Weiner's series was doing. (In short, I read it as a show that uses the lens of advertising to explore twentieth-century America's capacity for self-deception and self-creation, with each season devoted to a particular psychological defense mechanism that Don Draper deploys to keep his demons at bay -- season 1 is denial, season 2 is dissociation/displacement, season 3 is minimization, etc.) But Weiner's commentaries and interviews rarely connected with what I saw as the main points of each episode; they were usually focused on stuff that seemed either tangential or surface-level to me, like "This episode is about the creative process" or "This episode explores our relationship to death."

I don't know, though, whether that means Weiner is an idiot savant, or whether he just found it tacky to walk the audience through his own writing in too much detail. The former seems improbable to me given how complex some of the material was that Weiner never got around to mentioning. For instance, there's a minor recurring character named Raymond whose only literal role in the series is to have strong opinions about how to sell beans, but in appearances spanning three separate seasons, every feeling he has on the subject symbolizes the feelings Don is wrestling with toward his wife Megan. It's hard to imagine that just consistently happened by accident -- and yet, like with so much else that to me was quite central to understanding the arc of the series, Weiner didn't go around making sure viewers noticed that Raymond represented the state of Don's marriage.

Weiner also had a tendency to explain character beats not from some all-knowing writerly perspective but from the point of view of the characters themselves, who tended not to be all that self aware. He'd say something like, "Don realizes that Megan will always be an artist at heart," and people would freak out at the idea that we the viewers were supposed to think dingbat Megan is this perfect woman with an artistic soul, when all he was saying is that at this particular moment in the series, Don believes that.

Ultimately, the energy we all spent parsing Weiner's words felt like wasted effort to me, never providing much insight and often keeping us from looking at what the show itself was doing because we were too busy picking over whatever dumb thing its creator just said about it. So when it came to The Americans, I was never eager to sweat Weisberg and Fields's words when we could be talking about their work instead.

Exactly. It's another way in which it's important not to confuse the narrow perspective of a character with the all-knowing perspective of the writer.

 

On an unrelated note, I just watched the season 3 "Baggage" this evening, and I was amazed that I had completely forgotten about a key scene in that episode: Oleg, enraged that Stan refused to betray his country to save Nina, pulls a gun on him and orders him to get on his knees. Stan calls his bluff, telling him "You want to shoot me, shoot me in the back" and walking away. It's a much shorter encounter than the garage scene in the finale, but the beats are remarkably similar, just with Stan on the opposite side. There's even a whole part in the middle where they discuss the murder of Vlad and how Stan loved Nina and whether there's anything they can do to save her, all while Oleg has his gun pointed at Stan. Which of course still isn't evidence that the scenario could plausibly happen in real life, and maybe the same people who hated the garage scene hated that scene as well. But it does suggest that the garage confrontation is well within the parameters of plausibility established by the show itself, and not some lazy cheat the writers only resorted to once they'd burned themselves out.

Oh, I don't think they resorted to that cheat once they burned themselves out. I think they decided they wanted that scene (very unwisely, imho) early on, and wrote backwards from there.

There is so little I find remotely plausible about Stan's development, whether it be his murder of Vlad, or his relationship with Nina. It was one of the major weaknesses in the show.

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, Dev F said:

Weiner also had a tendency to explain character beats not from some all-knowing writerly perspective but from the point of view of the characters themselves, who tended not to be all that self aware. He'd say something like, "Don realizes that Megan will always be an artist at heart," and people would freak out at the idea that we the viewers were supposed to think dingbat Megan is this perfect woman with an artistic soul, when all he was saying is that at this particular moment in the series, Don believes that.

 

This is specifically the connection I made early on about Weiner that made me realize that I shouldn't freak out about the stuff he said or take it as the whole story. I agree with you--I don't think the bigger stuff was happening by accident, but I think he tended to talk about things in micro terms which makes sense if you imagine him writing for characters who have to react to things beat by beat. Characters don't react to things by knowing the whole context of their life--and Weiner famously didn't even often let the actors know where things were going.

The scene for me was MW explaining how he wanted to have a scene of Roger and Jane alone to show that "this was love." I was totally freaked out that he was making some really sexist point there and that he bought into it...but then the story went on to seem to illustrate exactly what I had been seeing. What he meant was in that moment in the series this is what Roger and Jane thought they were experiencing--what they were experiencing--and that's why they were doing it. It seemed very Proustian to me where people live in the moment and that doesn't mean all other moments will be the same. Later he describes another moment as Roger "seeing his marriage the way everyone else sees his marriage." Likewise Marie will later describe Megan as having an artist's temperament without being an artist. Characters often hit upon some truth about another character, but not the whole thing.

The work spoke far more accurately and clearly than he did about it--which is how it should be. 

This ep points to something equally complex with Elizabeth in her dream where she says she doesn't want a kid. We know this is true. She didn't want to have children. But her relationship to her children is complex and she loves them. She certainly wants them now. Even her not wanting them in the past was complicated and due to a lot of reasons, some of which are maybe hinted at in the dream as well. Gregory himself also, imo, stands for something in the dream that's part of what he was in life, but not all of it.

Paige is maybe particularly complicated in this way because the show deals a lot with identity and Paige is actively searching for one throughout. In the end I think in some ways both kids replayed their own parents' stories, but not completely (they've both gotten a little further with their own kids than they did with their parents). Paige's life was dominated by a mother she both resented and wanted approval from and Henry never knew his father and will probably puzzle over memories his whole life trying to figure him out. 

[Umbelina]

I loved the scene in the garage with Stan, Philip, Elizabeth, and Paige as a stand alone, I believed it, gun drawn and all.  I don't think drawing your gun means automatically shooting for experienced cops or people.

As I've said, the problems with believing it, for me, are primarily the lead in episodes for that and Paige present as a witness, and then deciding to stay in this country.  Specifically, my biggest issues with Stan's choice there are Elizabeth's unprecedented murder spree this season, and specifically the killing of FBI agents and the Teacup's bloody murders with a child present and left to find their bodies.

Given those two (major) factors, it FAILS for me as a finale.  As a scene, it was beautifully done, and I'm so glad I got a chance to see such superb acting. 

[John Potts]

Well, I came down on the "liked it" side, in the main. I actually thought it seemed a reasonable ending that it didn't end, as such - history didn't come to an end in 1989, whatever Francis Fukuyama thought. Although one couple leaves the game, others will take their place (IRL, we know they did!). Or to quote another 80s set story: "Nothing Ends, Adrian - Nothing ever Ends." Which I can see some people might find frustrating, but I was fine with.

I seemed to come out with a different interpretation of Paige's intentions, too. When Philip said he could stay and watch over Henry, it was pretty clear he wasn't going to be "Philip Jennings" any more, he was going to assume some other identity and try to quietly make contact. Now I assumed Paige was going to attempt something similar - however, unlike Philip, I don't believe for a moment that she'd actually be able to do so. I mean, showing up at "Granny's" apartment was clearly not a genius move when it comes to going off grid. But Paige has consistently shown that she consistently overestimates her ability to do "spy stuff".

I did have my problems with Stan letting them go, but talking people into doing things is what Philip is good at - and given their history, he knows what buttons to press with Stan. Yes, he's an FBI Agent dealing with a Soviet spy - but he's also Stan Beeman confronting his friend and neighbour Phil Jennings. And even then, Stan's position isn't as strong as it could be - he has Phil dead in his sights, but he only has one gun to cover three people. If he fires, Liz is going to be on him like a rash (and Paige will probably at least provide a distraction) - can he drop both of them before they're on him? Which is of course why FBI Agents DON'T confront dangerous criminals single handed! He did try to take control of the situation by ordering them to kneel down, but they consistently refused - which only left Stan with the option of actually shooting. Essentially, Philip (correctly) called Stan's bluff and then worked him over with his words.

YMMV how likely that is to work, obviously!

[UncleChuck]

On 5/31/2018 at 8:09 AM, companionenvy said:

We're left with the understanding that Oleg is going to be serving a long prison sentence, and there's nothing in the historical circumstances strong enough to contradict it.

OK, Oleg was left in FBI jail, under suspicion of all manner of espionage.  But, the FBI was watching him, and therefore knows that he did NOT commit any of the recent murders (Mr/Mrs Teacup-General Suicide-Chicago) and so what crime did he commit?  He was caught with some type of coded device in his pocket.  Now, if that coded message contained American SECRETS or other espionage stuff harmful to the USA, then of course, he would be severely prosecuted.  But if the FBI/CIA ever managed to translate the code, they would just find a message from some Russians to other Russians concerning the RUSSIAN leader Gorbachev.  I doubt prosecutors could ever get much of a conviction if the crime was sending a message that not all Russians were supportive of Gorby.

[Dev F]

6 hours ago, UncleChuck said:

OK, Oleg was left in FBI jail, under suspicion of all manner of espionage.  But, the FBI was watching him, and therefore knows that he did NOT commit any of the recent murders (Mr/Mrs Teacup-General Suicide-Chicago) and so what crime did he commit?  He was caught with some type of coded device in his pocket.  Now, if that coded message contained American SECRETS or other espionage stuff harmful to the USA, then of course, he would be severely prosecuted.  But if the FBI/CIA ever managed to translate the code, they would just find a message from some Russians to other Russians concerning the RUSSIAN leader Gorbachev.  I doubt prosecutors could ever get much of a conviction if the crime was sending a message that not all Russians were supportive of Gorby.

They probably could nail Oleg under the Foreign Agents Registration Act -- for acting as an agent of a foreign power without disclosing that fact to the US government. That's what the real-life illegals who inspired The Americans were charged with, since the feds couldn't prove that they'd actually obtained any American secrets. It's not a hard-time type of offense, though; I think the maximum sentence is something like five or ten years.

Ironically, I think they could charge him with espionage if they successfully decoded the dead drop message, since it must include at least some indication that Oleg's contacts have been following Nesterenko and can confirm what he's told US officials. That would mean that Oleg is transmitting information about secret, sensitive State Department meetings to America's enemies.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Dev F

[Nash]

On 31/05/2018 at 5:24 AM, SusanSunflower said:

yes, I think Paige will likely evade prosecution.  P&E have been operating in the DC area for almost 20 years with only "one thumb print" from Phillip at Clark's faux apartment (iirc) .... 

Most espionage (and terrorism) prosecutions end in plea bargains and/or trades ... deeds may be confessed to in exchange for carrots (not sticks).   Hopefully Paige will sober up before Claudia's apartment/safe house is identified (although there's likely no useful evidence there) and she will either return to her apartment or (better) show up at Stan's.  "We" know P&E's kill list ... they (the FBI have no reason to link Elizabeth (much less Paige) with the General's "suicide" ... with P&E out of reach,  with Stan in her corner, and maybe an "nervous breakdown"  Paige's "issues" will be many but likely not legal jeopardy. 

The fact that Henry knows nothing .... about P&E or Paige is critical here. 

The apartment looked pretty clean to me - Claudia was old school and that place will have been sanitised. 2018 tech would do the job but in 1987? 

Then again, that vodka bottle......

[Nash]

On 31/05/2018 at 6:23 AM, NitneLiun said:

What makes you think Arkady can even protect himself?  This episode was set in December of 1987. The failed coup against Gorbachev was in 1991, IIRC.  That's a long time to the many enemies they now have in the KGB.  Seems like there is a good chance Arkady, Philip and Elizabeth ended up in Lubyanka Prison with bullets in the backs of their heads.

The 91 coup was born out of desperation by hardliners and at the critical point none of the KGB SF officers would accept the order to go in hard. I think Arkady said that it was senior figures at the KGB that were plotting. With this threat out of the way in 87, I’d say the threat to the Jenningses and Arkady is diminished somewhat. As for Oleg, with the continued summits and glasnost and his clear role (unrelated to the murder spree of our two comrades from Dept S), he might not do much, if any time at all. 

[Umbelina]

I just counted silent music montages in the finale.  21 minutes.

Philip and Elizabeth barely speak to each other in this episode, and don't speak at all for 18 minutes in the final montage, they barely look at each other.

There are many other long silences as well, with them, and with other characters.  Probably 4-5 minutes worth if I had the patience to count them all up.

I'm not implying you need words to act, but really show?

[Erin9]

On 7/5/2018 at 4:31 PM, Umbelina said:

I just counted silent music montages in the finale.  21 minutes.

Philip and Elizabeth barely speak to each other in this episode, and don't speak at all for 18 minutes in the final montage, they barely look at each other.

There are many other long silences as well, with them, and with other characters.  Probably 4-5 minutes worth if I had the patience to count them all up.

I'm not implying you need words to act, but really show?

Yeah. They really got into doing long, wordless sequences in the last 2 seasons. I don’t really get it.  I am never going to sit through the hole digging scene of S5 again or the super dark scene of S6 where Elizabeth kills  people. It went on forever, you couldn’t see much, and, well, it was boring. Actually I got bored watching Elizabeth prepare to kill Sofia and Gennadi it went on so long. There was a scene in S5 where Elizabeth is staring at, I think, wheat that dragged too. 

Re:the finale Philip could have said something about his past in all those silences....something, anything. I kinda get some of the silence between P/E in the very end. They were tired, stressed, shocked, had just left their home of 22 years and kids. There had to be everything and nothing to say. But, yeah. There was a lot of silence. I really was worried that the show was going to just end with them driving because they spent  so much time showing them just wordlessly drive. Thankfully- Philip finally said something when they got to Moscow. 

[Plums]

3 hours ago, Erin9 said:

the super dark scene of S6 where Elizabeth kills  people. It went on forever, you couldn’t see much, and, well, it was boring.

I didn't like this scene either. It was interesting, because when I listened to the Slate podcast, the J's made a point to talk about this scene like they thought it was going to be so talked about because it was almost pitch black, and they thought it was so boundary pushing and daring at the time they came up with it, and they were excited about it, and then it airs and the reality is that no one is talking about it except to complain about how they were so confused about what was going on because they couldn't see anything and everyone thought there was a problem with the brightness on their TVs or something, lol. They sounded a little put out about the whole nonreaction thing, tbh. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Plums said:

I didn't like this scene either. It was interesting, because when I listened to the Slate podcast, the J's made a point to talk about this scene like they thought it was going to be so talked about because it was almost pitch black, and they thought it was so boundary pushing and daring at the time they came up with it, and they were excited about it, and then it airs and the reality is that no one is talking about it except to complain about how they were so confused about what was going on because they couldn't see anything and everyone thought there was a problem with the brightness on their TVs or something, lol. They sounded a little put out about the whole nonreaction thing, tbh. 

Yes, I remember my reaction was just to realize early that this wasn't going to be something I could really see and Elizabeth was obviously just going to kill some people so there was no reason to even try to watch it because Elizabeth killing people stopped being interesting a long time ago. 

The dismemberment scene was more interesting because Philip it was being done by Philip who was the only person on the show who actually seemed to care much about Marilyn at all, at least as a human being. He no longer wanted to treat people like baggage and here he was doing it again. So the scene was really about him killing something in himself for Elizabeth and Elizabeth realizing it. Plus it was logical but also surprising--once he went for the axe you understood the logic. Where as the warehouse scene was just Elizabeth being cool in her black outfit and silencer and killing people we didn't even know were there until we heard the gun and all the murder just underlined what a dumb plan it was to begin with. 

4 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Yeah. They really got into doing long, wordless sequences in the last 2 seasons. I don’t really get it.  I am never going to sit through the hole digging scene of S5 again or the super dark scene of S6 where Elizabeth kills  people. It went on forever, you couldn’t see much, and, well, it was boring. Actually I got bored watching Elizabeth prepare to kill Sofia and Gennadi it went on so long. There was a scene in S5 where Elizabeth is staring at, I think, wheat that dragged too. 

 

I think they did seem to get the wrong idea that watching business would always be interesting and it wasn't always. A lot of things happening at the end of the finale are organically wordless, of course. Philip and Elizabeth *can't* speak for a lot of it--on the train they're pretending not to know each other, on the plane they're pretending not to know each other. In the car I don't think they're ready to talk yet (for all Elizabeth's claims that Philip loves to talk). They can't unpack any of this until they've gotten where they're going.

Plus I think with the two of them, unlike with any other characters, they don't need to talk. They communicate silently often or just get comfort from the other person being there. And of course in the last season Elizabeth's cut herself off from her healthier self, which is the part of her that actually enjoys things like talking or joking. The other characters either needed long, detailed scenes that gave more information than the show wanted or needed to give or just a visual thing, which we got.

[Umbelina]

The writers chose to show us scenes where there was not any talking.  They found cool music and let that and a cinematographer write the "script" for them.  There is not a chance in hell that Philip and Elizabeth traveled together for at least 24 hours and never spoke.

That was just easier for the "writers" because any actual words would have meant they actually had to discuss things that the writers wanted to "leave up to the viewers."  It was too much work to sell this ending using actual words.  Music and a few glances made that easy.

[sistermagpie]

21 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The writers chose to show us scenes where there was not any talking.  They found cool music and let that and a cinematographer write the "script" for them.  There is not a chance in hell that Philip and Elizabeth traveled together for at least 24 hours and never spoke.

 

I don't want to defend the use of musical montages themselves because three following each other was a bit much, but I think it's totally possible they didn't say much to each other during the journey. Of course they probably spoke some--especially when discussing the logistics etc., but I imagine they were mostly quiet. 

[Umbelina]

For a show about "a marriage" they certainly didn't have the husband and wife interact much.  Honestly, the only actual conversation between them that I can remember is a short one about not taking Henry with them.  Was there another?

I get it.  If they had actually TALKED Elizabeth might have to tell him about her bizarre decision to (twice!) tell Claudia all, and that Claudia was Coup, and then explain her astounding decision to leave her alive.  Better to avoid that so Philip could at least appear to still have a brain, even though Elizabeth didn't.  Also, for the sappy ending, rather than Philip or Elizabeth having to address the fact that they didn't have long for this world, or, to at least give them a chance at running to a different country.  This way, the showrunners got to have a Moscow background for their music.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

For a show about "a marriage" they certainly didn't have the husband and wife interact much.  Honestly, the only actual conversation between them that I can remember is a short one about not taking Henry with them.  Was there another?

There were really only 3 that I remember: the first one about not taking Henry, the brief convo where Philip wishes he could stay for a while and Elizabeth says she'd like to do that too if it were possible and then the one in the end. Oh, and the brief exchange where Elizabeth says she killed a KGB officer and Philip says she had no choice. Can't remember quite when that happened.

None of them after the first one are really plot related at all, even if they refer to something in the plot. (Doing so would have gone nowhere, really in the episode.) The conversation about Henry is the only real decision being made because Elizabeth doesn't get that yet (and that plot decision does go somewhere). After that they both know what they're losing and they're just mourning it side by side, imo, still interacting in silence and knowing there's nothing they can do about it. It's all very clearly scripted, just in the way of those silent moment's they've often had the show--Philip going to sit with Elizabeth on the train, Elizabeth looking over at Philip on the plane, sharing a look before crossing the border, leaning on each other to sleep in the car. I think the conversations after the first one are more like like verbal versions of those silent moments--one person expresses some emotion and the other person says something supportive about the thing they can't change. The last two lines stand out because they're the first ones about looking forward at their new life instead of the past.

Edited July 28, 2018 by sistermagpie

[CaliCheeseSucks]

On 7/27/2018 at 6:13 PM, Plums said:

I didn't like this scene either. It was interesting, because when I listened to the Slate podcast, the J's made a point to talk about this scene like they thought it was going to be so talked about because it was almost pitch black, and they thought it was so boundary pushing and daring at the time they came up with it, and they were excited about it, and then it airs and the reality is that no one is talking about it except to complain about how they were so confused about what was going on because they couldn't see anything and everyone thought there was a problem with the brightness on their TVs or something, lol. They sounded a little put out about the whole nonreaction thing, tbh. 

I had to stop listening to the Slate podcast during season three, I think. They came off as way too much - I hate this expression but it fits best here - sniffing their own farts, episode after episode. It was clear they were way too invested in the idea of impressing viewers and/or fan service (i.e., Martha sightings, Mail Robot), and less so concerned with putting out a cohesive story. Sounds like I was right for quitting listening, in that they stuck to that self-congratulatory style to the end.

Edited July 28, 2018 by CaliCheeseSucks
Clarity

[Erin9]

My favorite silent moment- with music albeit- between P/E is her handing him his real wedding ring, him putting it on- and them silently agreeing they’re still in this together. No words needed. 

Watching them get married and having to hide the real rings, then this scene back to back makes for some powerful viewing. I never thought when Father Andrei talked about them filing paperwork back home it could ever happen. No more than when Gabriel told Mischa that he might meet his father someday, but not in America- that it was a real possibility. Just rewatched that too. Did not see either coming. At the time I thought- yeah right. I didn’t even remember Gabriel throwing someday out as a possibility, I so disregarded the notion. 

The very first scene of the episode with Philip alone in the garage is so devastating. You can see him really processing that life as they know it is done. And I think he’s concluding Henry needs to stay. 

Paige repeating that they’re going “ home- you mean Russia?”- you can tell just how much she doesn’t view Russia as home. Doesn’t really belong in the same sentence for her.  It so wasn’t happening. 

The garage scene is just so amazing. NE really was robbed of an Emmy nomination for that scene alone. He and MR sold the heck out of it. It is truly riveting. It’s 10 minutes of dialogue, and I was totally glued to these men talking it out. Even after repeated viewings. Incredible. The last great sell of Philip Jennings. “We had a job to do.”

Even though Stan isn’t buying it, they do a good job of acting confused and bewildered when Stan confronts them. They have an answer for everything. A quick answer. Their ability to lie on command is something else. 

It’s interesting how in the course of the conversation Philip is phrasing it to Stan”if” we can leave- ie if Stan will let them, and as he wraps it up- he’s informing him, they’re getting in the car and going. (Do we see at exactly what point Stan puts down the gun? I seem to miss it.) I wonder if Stan even knows when he decided to let them leave. Or if he always kinda knew he would. 

Stan watching the garage when he knows there’s nothing to wait for is both priceless and powerful. 

Also- Stan was clearly still in a state of shock when he made it back to the office. That probably helped him convincingly lie to Aderholdt that he was just now actually finding out that he’d been right. (Still don’t think that sketch of Philip was super good.) I’m not sure I noticed this, but while Stan is committing treason talking to Aderholdt, there’s an American flag next to him. Nice imagery. 

Every scene about Henry is still devestating. It’s impressive that Philip was able to think through the most important things he wanted to tell Henry, even under all that stress and pressure. Elizabeth couldn’t say much at all. But, he’s also the one with the relationship with Henry. It had to come from him. Elizabeth couldn’t really sell what Philip sold. She couldn’t have told Henry about just being himself/being already great. She didn’t know him really. Possibly part of the reason she could say so little is because she knew so little. She had less she could say- and was losing a son she hadn’t taken the time to know. It made her a bit more of an emotional wreck.

In both of her phone conversations with Henry she asks him about himself- what he likes, then what he’s doing.....because she doesn’t know at all and wishes she had that time back. Just like Erica said. In her last conversation- so she thinks- she’s trying to get just a little more knowledge about her son. In this case, he’s hanging out with his friends. Kinda vague, but accurate and a fairly typical answer for a kid. Then he adds he needs to get off the phone. It’s all so sad.  Philip OTOH has less of a need to know what Henry is up to at that exact moment. But- when Henry is explaining again that he needs to get off the phone, he tells his dad exactly what he’s doing: he’s in a ping pong tournament. 

  I love that Philip not only tells him to be himself- but that who he is- is great. It’s important to hit on both. One without the other would have been a bit of a miss imo.  And- Henry thinking he’ll see his dad next week- just killer. Ugh. 

I even found the train scene to be very tense on re-watch and of course I know they don’t get caught. Paige hopping off is still shockingly sad. 

E/P looking back, then starting to move forward was, to me, a perfect end. Their lives as Americans are done. So we end there- with the last 2 lines showing them starting to move forward. IDK why exactly, but anytime they speak Russian, I’m locked in. Maybe because it was so rare. Maybe because it is such an in your face reminder that they’re not Americans. And we had so few of those ethnic/cultural reminders outside of the obvious spy job. 

I’m not sure if a flash forward could have been as powerful. I watched all of Justified, which was fantastic too. They spend about 20 minutes on a very well done flash forward, but it was a very different show. 

For an episode that had multiple musical montages and a lot of straight silence, I think it actually worked really well. Better than other episodes that had so much silence- like the hole digging- for one.  The silence in this episode was telling in and of itself. It wasn’t like watching holes get dug, wheat grow, barely visible scenes- to me anyway-that were super boring and didn’t emotionally resonate.  I would have enjoyed hearing what else P/E had to say though, but the silence worked here.  These musical montages all go on my short list of the best ones they ever did. 

This whole episode stands up so well. Some great episodes don’t after one viewing. This one does imo. 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Watching them get married and having to hide the real rings, then this scene back to back makes for some powerful viewing. I never thought when Father Andrei talked about them filing paperwork back home it could ever happen. No more than when Gabriel told Mischa that he might meet his father someday, but not in America- that it was a real possibility. Just rewatched that too. Did not see either coming. At the time I thought- yeah right. I didn’t even remember Gabriel throwing someday out as a possibility, I so disregarded the notion. 

I forgot about that line! Gabriel will probably make it happen too.

The wedding rings moment is one of my favorites in START as well. Also having Paige see it fits because a) she's always been so obsessed with their marriage and b) there is no parallel gesture for her becoming her Russian self or their Russian daughter. She isn't one. Her reaction that you mentioned about "home" and Russia, when you think about it, is a big part of the payoff to all those Russian culture lessons. That and the fight in the kitchen where Elizabeth says she doesn't understand. It just shows how all those lessons never did any of the things Elizabeth was desperate for them to do. There actually are children of immigrants who grow up feeling connected to their parents' home even if they haven't spent time there. To Paige it still practically didn't exist. Even her line about Gorbachev hints at that--it's weird that he's an actual person who can just visit Washington, DC to her. In the end Paige is just as American as Henry is.

22 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

It’s interesting how in the course of the conversation Philip is phrasing it to Stan”if” we can leave- ie if Stan will let them, and as he wraps it up- he’s informing him, they’re getting in the car and going. (Do we see at exactly what point Stan puts down the gun? I seem to miss it.) I wonder if Stan even knows when he decided to let them leave. Or if he always kinda knew he would. 

I think unconsciously he made the decision the minute they didn't lie down. That's when it became about surrendering or being shot and he was probably never going to shoot them. Not unless they worked him up into some state of rage and betrayal beyond where he was, which was the last thing they were going to do.

23 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

  I love that Philip not only tells him to be himself- but that who he is- is great. It’s important to hit on both. One without the other would have been a bit of a miss imo.  And- Henry thinking he’ll see his dad next week- just killer. Ugh. 

Also, to put it bluntly, Elizabeth couldn't have told him that because it wasn't true for her and Henry would probably come to see that if he didn't already once he knew the story. She didn't think what he was was great as himself--at least not in a lot of ways. He was American, he wasn't like her, she didn't really understand him, so she didn't try. Henry knows she has a relationship with Paige. He states more than once that his impression of his relationship with his mother is that she doesn't care. Both Jennings leave their children on a terrible note just because their leaving itself and the secret coming out to Henry is going to be traumatic, but Elizabeth left both her children in the place she'd kind of aspired to--both relationships were sacrificed to her spy career. In a way she'd told both kids that being themselves wasn't enough--which was pretty much what she was told herself by everyone but Philip. Maybe that makes it better for Henry in some way, that he's losing someone he'd already lost, but probably not. (Harvest's final messages show that a child can wind up with very different opinions on the different parents.)

Even with Paige in some ways she made it harder for her to connect to being Russian because she wasn't supposed to like it like an American kid, but instead she had to "get it" meaning she would see it from their perspective as if she lived it. It wasn't about building bridges. 

Thinking of Philip in the garage I realized this was probably part of the reason for the whole story with Pasha. He saw Pasha miserable enough in the US (albeit with help from Philip himself) to stage a suicide and he saw him gladly go back to the USSR without his father. If that storyline had more emotional weight I might have remembered it sooner--as it was I didn't think about it at all and it wasn't necessary for understanding Philip's decision, but that was probably part of the idea there. It's partly why Philip was so desperate for Henry not to go to boarding school, but then he accepted it and probably knew even then that he was letting him go for good one way or another.

All the children of Russians wind up separated from at least one parent: Oleg, Igor, Sasha, Pasha and Alexei, Baklanov and his son, Robert and Oscar, the Connors are all dead. Arkady doesn't know how lucky he has it!

 

37 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

E/P looking back, then starting to move forward was, to me, a perfect end. Their lives as Americans are done. So we end there- with the last 2 lines showing them starting to move forward. IDK why exactly, but anytime they speak Russian, I’m locked in. Maybe because it was so rare. Maybe because it is such an in your face reminder that they’re not Americans. And we had so few of those ethnic/cultural reminders outside of the obvious spy job. 

I was really happy that they had both of them speak Russian at the end too instead of just Elizabeth. Her line is like the one at the end of S1 where she's specifically choosing that language to make a point, but Philip knows he could have spoken to Arkady in English and also chooses Russian. (They probably spoke a bit when they got in the car and maybe Arkady started out in Russian and so they responded in it?) In general S6 had more Russian in the Jennings' life than ever before. Elizabeth had that meeting in Mexico and they watched MDNBIT. But with Philip it was almost more interesting because he didn't have those things, yet still gets the scene with Harvest and watching his own movie just because he wanted to do that. Then with Arkady he's already trying to switch back into his Russian-speaking mode by speaking it in the car.

42 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I’m not sure if a flash forward could have been as powerful. I watched all of Justified, which was fantastic too. They spend about 20 minutes on a very well done flash forward, but it was a very different show. 

In general I hate flash-forwards, though sometimes they're the right ending. This was one of those shows where people kept predicting one so I was dreading it and was so relieved when we didn't get one.

 

45 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

For an episode that had multiple musical montages and a lot of straight silence, I think it actually worked really well. Better than other episodes that had so much silence- like the hole digging- for one.  The silence in this episode was telling in and of itself. It wasn’t like watching holes get dug, wheat grow, barely visible scenes- to me anyway-that were super boring and didn’t emotionally resonate.  I would have enjoyed hearing what else P/E had to say though, but the silence worked here.  These musical montages all go on my short list of the best ones they ever did. 

And here most of the silent scenes were moving the plot forward. When they're digging the hole you know where it's going and there's just a lot of time spent on doing it without much changing throughout it. Here for instance, when they're burying things there's the stuff that just shows us what they're doing (tossing in their wallets) but then the important symbolic stuff: the wedding rings, Elizabeth's cyanide pill, Henry's passport. Even a shot of them driving in the car gives us the feeling of a long journey. The opposite of Mischa back in the USSR in the blink of an eye. In the airplane we've got Elizabeth's dream, then her waking up so she's reacting to that. Then for a second it looks like she's alone until the camera finally reaches Philip on the other side, emphasizing how they're sitting together but I have to keep a distance between them.

[Erin9]

@sistermagpie I think the Elizabeth of the very end of the series would have thought Henry was all around great- if she’d had a chance to get to know him.  At least by the time she’s calling him during the Harvest op, she clearly has profound regrets about what she doesn’t know about him. Both of her final conversations, even if just a sentence,  revolve around her wanting to know him better. She’d like to really understand him, like to know him. She knows he’s worth knowing. She’d like to have put her time to better use. Claudia is the one with the issue about American children in the end. She says it’s nothing noteworthy.

And Elizabeth does say she agrees with what Philip said when she spoke to Henry, and I believed her. She may not know Henry well, but she knows Philip does- and that he’s right. She at least knows enough to know that. She superficially knows he’s a great kid she didn’t put her time into. That’s part of the whole wrap up of Elizabeth’s arc imo. Otherwise- she hasn’t lost nearly as much. 

I do agree that Elizabeth sacrificed both relationships with her kids to her spy career in one way or the other. And that’s her great regret. She didn’t get to know her son because she didn’t get him. She didn’t really let her daughter establish her own identity or get to know her because she was trying to make her into someone she wasn’t. Whoever Paige is, she’s not a Russian or a spy with a passionate love of the Motherland. Philip always loved his kids as they were. He got it. Speaking of that....

I’m re-watching S5, and I’d forgotten another Paige/Philip scene that resonates- Philip telling Paige she doesn’t have to be the person she was as a kid. That was very important. He also pointed out  that whatever P Tim knew about her- he only knew a part of who she was. Good stuff there. 

 I haven’t re-watched enough of S5 to connect what Philip remembers about Pasha hating the US/wanting to go to his home even without his dad with him leaving Henry in his home. It makes sense that Philip thought about that. It’s too bad that story didn’t stick the emotional landing it could have. 

Philip doesn’t even need Gabriel to find Mischa. He already hooked Mischa up with Philip’s brother. Philip should have no problem finding his brother. 

I hadn’t really thought about it, but true: Philip didn’t HAVE to speak Russian to Arkady. He knew Arkady spoke English. Probably they’d already spoken Russian at some point during the drive, but Philip was clearly  re-assimilating himself when he asked Arkady to pull over, which I so enjoyed hearing. 

Agreed: the silent scenes moved things forward and show emotional connections.  Even though they’re not talking on the plane, the train, the car, where they’re sheddding their identities- they’re connecting. Things are happening, too. 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Erin9

[Umbelina]

12 hours ago, Erin9 said:

For an episode that had multiple musical montages and a lot of straight silence, I think it actually worked really well. Better than other episodes that had so much silence- like the hole digging- for one.  The silence in this episode was telling in and of itself. It wasn’t like watching holes get dug, wheat grow, barely visible scenes- to me anyway-that were super boring and didn’t emotionally resonate.  I would have enjoyed hearing what else P/E had to say though, but the silence worked here.  These musical montages all go on my short list of the best ones they ever did. 

This whole episode stands up so well. Some great episodes don’t after one viewing. This one does imo. 

For me, as I've said before, the episode stands up really well, but only as an episode, it falls apart for me as a finale.  A finale, for me anyway, has to take into account all that came before it, at the very least, the previous final season episodes.

This would have worked for me, had they not set up so much failure for everyone in the previous season 6 episodes.  They didn't HAVE to do that, and I honestly will never forgive them for, what I see as, a total cop-out at the end.  For example, I think they could have had tension without:

1. The complete con job and lack of resolve with Renee.  How very, very cheap of them.
2. Paige didn't HAVE to be an accessory to multiple murders.
3. Elizabeth didn't have to go on her largest murder spree yet, including FBI agents and Stan's turned spies, if they were going to have Stan just let them go.
4. The Coup people could have worked, had it been defined enough, or resolved enough to make it clear that this isn't the same group that will succeed in real life in 2 3/4 years.
5. Elizabeth had just killed Claudia, or at the very least, not spilled her guts to Claudia.  IN WHAT UNIVERSE?

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Also, to put it bluntly, Elizabeth couldn't have told him that because it wasn't true for her and Henry would probably come to see that if he didn't already once he knew the story. She didn't think what he was was great as himself--at least not in a lot of ways. He was American, he wasn't like her, she didn't really understand him, so she didn't try. Henry knows she has a relationship with Paige. He states more than once that his impression of his relationship with his mother is that she doesn't care. Both Jennings leave their children on a terrible note just because their leaving itself and the secret coming out to Henry is going to be traumatic, but Elizabeth left both her children in the place she'd kind of aspired to--both relationships were sacrificed to her spy career. In a way she'd told both kids that being themselves wasn't enough--which was pretty much what she was told herself by everyone but Philip.

Elizabeth, for me anyway, never valued her children as individuals, even before the KGB told her that both of them would be recruited.  She always either ignored them (I don't mean their basic needs, I mean emotionally) or was only interested when something they did reflected well on her, or showed them to be like her. 

She sacrificed everything for her job, including, most of the time, her marriage.  Even the few times she did sacrifice for Philip, she ended up resenting him (for example, letting him "quit" became a burden to her, and more work for her, and she resented him/shut him out.)

(Formatting issues again, so to the below quote about Stan:)

As good as Mathew Rhys was in that scene (and he was outstanding) it was Noah who really sold it for me.  I read that he was quite sick when he did that scene, and honestly, that may have helped him, but I think he would have pulled it off anyway.  Noah's reactions, because honestly, in this scene, the most important part of his performance was reaction, and often underrated side of acting, which is probably why he didn't get an Emmy nomination, and it honestly makes me sad, are what MADE that scene work for me. 

He made rather simplistic writing complicated.  I never felt he made the decision immediately, although I did not think he would kill them both, Noah made me believe almost until the end that he might shoot/disable them both.  I could tell the show wasn't going to go there, but Noah kept me in that scene.

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think unconsciously he made the decision the minute they didn't lie down. That's when it became about surrendering or being shot and he was probably never going to shoot them. Not unless they worked him up into some state of rage and betrayal beyond where he was, which was the last thing they were going to do.

9 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I do agree that Elizabeth sacrificed both relationships with her kids to her spy career in one way or the other. And that’s her great regret. She didn’t get to know her son because she didn’t get him. She didn’t really let her daughter establish her own identity or get to know her because she was trying to make her into someone she wasn’t. Whoever Paige is, she’s not a Russian or a spy with a passionate love of the Motherland. Philip always loved his kids as they were. He got it. Speaking of that....

I agree.  She never TRIED to "get" either of her kids.  Paige she could manipulate, and also, recreate her own relationship with her mother in some ways.  What she had in common with Paige was mostly that fanatical blind allegiance to a cause, and she promoted that side of Paige, because it was almost the only side Elizabeth had, or at least her most defining characteristic. 

Elizabeth could not think for herself, and the show gave her plenty of back-story to promote that, especially her father's desertion and disgrace.

As for Philip?  He was mostly an afterthought for the writers, which is the biggest failing of the series for me, because he was by far the more interesting and complicated character.  The writers didn't really "do" complicated, so they left vague hints, and willy-nilly threw in a living brother after the bait-and-switch and nonsensical story about Misha. 

9 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Philip doesn’t even need Gabriel to find Mischa. He already hooked Mischa up with Philip’s brother. Philip should have no problem finding his brothe

SO ANNOYING!  Philip arranges a trip for Elizabeth to see her mother, a huge violation of the rules, which, honestly, would have had serious repercussions (which the show, once again, swept under the rug for the most part.)  

Still, in all of Philip's searching for answers about his childhood at EST and by himself, he never once asked Gabe for letters to and from his brother?  Elizabeth got regular tapes from mommy, but once again, the writers ignored Philip. 

Was it really just because their only interest was Elizabeth's story, and Philip was merely there to flesh out Elizabeth's character?  Or was it that they dropped too many tantalizing hints (the gulag, his dead dad, his mother getting his paycheck, his son and his son's escape) to wrap up into a whole, without a lot more effort that they wanted to spend?  I think it's both, but mostly the latter. 

In a way, Philip, much like Stan in that final scene, had to make magic, and did ably, with the crumbs from Elizabeth's story.  They even made Philip's mother like Elizabeth's, which, hello!  Could have been compelling, but honestly, how did the widow of a low level KGB prison guard force anyone to give her kid a paycheck, and honestly, how did she live there, what was her job, how did they survive?

I'm most angry that Philip's story was never really told, it was a hell of a lot more interesting that Elizabeth's, which received a ton of screen time, but really?  Was quite simplistic.  War widow of traitor, had a job, gave her daughter to the KGB (but big deal, that was about the best job Elizabeth could get in the USSR.) 

grrrrrr

9 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Agreed: the silent scenes moved things forward and show emotional connections.  Even though they’re not talking on the plane, the train, the car, where they’re sheddding their identities- they’re connecting. Things are happening, too

I don't disagree with that.  The actors are excellent and they can do silent very well.

My point is, it's LAZY writing, and worse?  I feel it was deliberate because they had created a nightmare, and words would complicate that. 

Look, I realize I'm almost alone in feeling this way, and I also realize that because I loved this show so much, and because I'm a history and spy affictionato who ended up reading a lot about all the times in this show, and about the KGB, and gulags, and the blockades, and the fall and aftermath of both the real Coup and the USSR, and really, all of it?  I just can't SEE Philip and Elizabeth living much longer, so the ending was such a cop-out for me.

No, it wasn't enough that they "lost their kids."  (Because honestly, IF they live, which they realistically will not, they would see them in a few years, or at least have open contact with Henry, and be able to send letters to Paige in prison...) 

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

In general I hate flash-forwards, though sometimes they're the right ending. This was one of those shows where people kept predicting one so I was dreading it and was so relieved when we didn't get one.

They flash forwarded the entire season, and they flash forwarded only to a time where nothing was really happening.  The wall wasn't down, the USSR was still going to exist for another almost-3 years.  Again, to me, a serious cop out.  It was so LAZY, and EASY, and played on emotions that, if you look at the actual facts and realities of all that lead to that?  Lead to disaster for everyone on screen. 

I can't ignore logic and history, which is necessary for me to buy "a bittersweet ending."

As I've said, as an episode?  Outstanding.  As a series finale?  I am SO PISSED.  (ahem) because my logical mind, says all of the characters are facing terrible ends.  Which?  I could live with, because, you know, that can happen, but then the writers try to sell that there is hope.  They have created hopeless situations and then try to shove some unrealistic hopeful ending down my throat?  Unacceptable, for me.  I'm well aware I'm in a minority here.

On 7/27/2018 at 8:50 PM, sistermagpie said:

There were really only 3 that I remember: the first one about not taking Henry, the brief convo where Philip wishes he could stay for a while and Elizabeth says she'd like to do that too if it were possible and then the one in the end. Oh, and the brief exchange where Elizabeth says she killed a KGB officer and Philip says she had no choice. Can't remember quite when that happened.

None of them after the first one are really plot related at all, even if they refer to something in the plot. (Doing so would have gone nowhere, really in the episode.) The conversation about Henry is the only real decision being made because Elizabeth doesn't get that yet (and that plot decision does go somewhere). After that they both know what they're losing and they're just mourning it side by side, imo, still interacting in silence and knowing there's nothing they can do about it. It's all very clearly scripted, just in the way of those silent moment's they've often had the show--Philip going to sit with Elizabeth on the train, Elizabeth looking over at Philip on the plane, sharing a look before crossing the border, leaning on each other to sleep in the car. I think the conversations after the first one are more like like verbal versions of those silent moments--one person expresses some emotion and the other person says something supportive about the thing they can't change. The last two lines stand out because they're the first ones about looking forward at their new life instead of the past.

 

As I say above?  The actors definitely sell it, and the music choices were good. I'm not at all saying you need words to make scenes work.  The scenes all worked, and worked well.

They were also complete and deliberate cop outs by the writers.  Words would have shown just how fucked everyone really was.  The most important?  We didn't see:

1. Elizabeth tell Philip what happened with Claudia, so Philip was unaware of how much danger they would be in returning to the USSR.
2. Arkady in silence driving, ditto the above about the danger/situation
3. Nothing about Paige's treason/accessory to murders probable charges
4. A SILENT scene with Henry, even at the end, the writers didn't give a shit about Henry
5. Stan's multiple issues, betraying his country, his KBG wife.

My point is, and I do get that no one else cares?  They deliberately SET UP all of the above, then completely ignored all of those things when they ended the show.  Almost everyone (but me, and a few others, including reviewers I respect) don't care about all the dangling, and mostly terrible likely ends for our characters.  I don't get it, and believe me I've tried to get it. 

20 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

I had to stop listening to the Slate podcast during season three, I think. They came off as way too much - I hate this expression but it fits best here - sniffing their own farts, episode after episode. It was clear they were way too invested in the idea of impressing viewers and/or fan service (i.e., Martha sightings, Mail Robot), and less so concerned with putting out a cohesive story. Sounds like I was right for quitting listening, in that they stuck to that self-congratulatory style to the end.

 

Yes, I agree, completely. 

Right now I'm watching The Handmaid's Tale, and I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed the reviewers calling the writers on this past season.

That never happened, or rarely happened with The Americans and I think the show suffered for that. 

The shows are similar, especially in one way, outstanding acting, and focus on female characters at the expense of male characters.  However, there is a point where, no matter how good your cast is, you have to actually write logically, and consistently, and not just showcase skills.  This season on THT the writing catered to the acting, and is also obviously dragging it's heels to stretch out a hit show as long as possible.  It's hasn't been quite as terrible as season 5 was for The American's, but it's close.

The reviewers have called them on the errors, and I'm very hopeful that it makes the writers clean up their acts for next season.  With The Americans?  The reviewers almost never did, I think in part because it was such a good show, with such a relatively small number of viewers, so they were pulling for it, and too often, pulled their punches.

The result was the showrunners, IMO, getting very lazy and hazy about the details they used to care about.  They cared more about being edgy, and "emotional" and less about staying true to history and fact ALONG WITH the emotions.  In seasons 1-4 the balance was there, and sure, some of the stories were "out there" but at least they came together as a whole for me, they never blatantly ignored logic or history.

I'm so disappointed in the final two seasons of this show, mostly because they had so much potential, and for me, they just wasted it.  They created complicated things, and in the final episode, bailed, with music and silent scenes, addressing absolutely NONE of the complications they created.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

15 hours ago, Erin9 said:

 I think the Elizabeth of the very end of the series would have thought Henry was all around great- if she’d had a chance to get to know him.  At least by the time she’s calling him during the Harvest op, she clearly has profound regrets about what she doesn’t know about him. Both of her final conversations, even if just a sentence,  revolve around her wanting to know him better. She’d like to really understand him, like to know him. She knows he’s worth knowing. She’d like to have put her time to better use. Claudia is the one with the issue about American children in the end. She says it’s nothing noteworthy.

Absolutely. I didn't mean to say that Elizabeth actually has judged Henry inferior. I was more talking about Henry's perspective and the thing you're talking about here. You can't tell someone you think what they are is great with the same authority if you don't actually know them, and she doesn't know him because of choices she made. She did stick close to Paige (although even there it's more complicated than that) because circumstances made that easier.

She does, I agree, regret those decisions but from Henry's side he had a mother uninterested in speaking with him who clearly got no joy out of the life he was part of, but was recruiting his sister into the secret life she did care about. I'm basically just agreeing with you, really, that those lines had to come from Philip because given her relationship with Henry Elizabeth really can't say them and have him take it the same way. By agreeing with Philip I think she's expressing what you're saying there, that regret. She wants Henry to know that she doesn't judge him as unworthy of her time, but knows that her actions read that way--and really, at times that is what they were. At the start of the season she is explicitly dismissing anything outside of her spy life.

15 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Philip doesn’t even need Gabriel to find Mischa. He already hooked Mischa up with Philip’s brother. Philip should have no problem finding his brother. 

He definitely doesn't need him--but I think Gabriel's invested in it happening. Philip doesn't know that he son wants to meet him. For Gabriel this was the sin that was the last straw that he's probably most eager to make right. I'd like to think that would change things between Philip and Gabriel too. Philip would probably seek out his son first thing, at least to make sure he was okay.

15 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I’m re-watching S5, and I’d forgotten another Paige/Philip scene that resonates- Philip telling Paige she doesn’t have to be the person she was as a kid. That was very important. He also pointed out  that whatever P Tim knew about her- he only knew a part of who she was. Good stuff there. 

Re-watching the early eps I'm starting to see that I think this is the center of Philip's arc. That's why the milk story was so important to him. I mean, he killed somebody or somebodies so it's obviously going to be important, but there's different ways to be important. It seemed like he was seeing that he had always spent his life on the defensive and getting security out of having power and he was trying to change his thinking--which is also maybe why he had such an effect on Gabriel who also realized how much of his actions were really based on fear.

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

He made rather simplistic writing complicated.  I never felt he made the decision immediately, although I did not think he would kill them both, Noah made me believe almost until the end that he might shoot/disable them both.  I could tell the show wasn't going to go there, but Noah kept me in that scene.

I do actually agree with this. I think the moment they didn't lie down was when it was always going to go this way, but not because Stan had submitted already. It was more like a chess move where victory was still several moves ahead but Stan didn't see that so he was honestly playing someone who might shoot if they said the wrong thing.

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Still, in all of Philip's searching for answers about his childhood at EST and by himself, he never once asked Gabe for letters to and from his brother?  Elizabeth got regular tapes from mommy, but once again, the writers ignored Philip. 

This is what made me resent EST so much. Instead of using it to actually get into his backstory and psychology we got generic EST psychobabble and then it was up to MR to show through facial expressions that this meant something to Philip only we didn't get to see the details. (Probably neither did MR!) I don't know if I'm right in thinking this but, for instance, isn't his journey to the US even more amazing given he was out in Siberia? Maybe it doesn't matter when they're looking for good students but I'm currently reading a book where the characters from Siberia seem to emphasize that there's a reason that word's synonymous with exile. On the show it made it seem like even Philip's brother was now living in...Moscow? Isn't that a big deal? Mischa, it seemed, would have been born there since the grandfather seems to imply that this is where Philip and Irina went out and he was living there even at that time, but how was the brother close enough that he could show up at Mischa's factory and invite him over to dinner at his apartment in a high rise? How did his brother get to live there? Or was he not there? Mischa was always associated with Moscow so there's no other city we'd assume he was in.

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

They flash forwarded the entire season, and they flash forwarded only to a time where nothing was really happening. 

It's true--and I didn't like that flashforward, though it was a flashforward epilogue I was really dreading. The pacing of those last two seasons is so odd to me. Or maybe even before that since they got into trouble by squeezing things so close together right away. (Totally agree with the list of things that just weren't necessary to do and wound up causing a lot of problems they didn't seem to actually want to raise--obvious example: if you don't want Paige to have done anything she can't walk back, don't have her do a lot of what she was doing.)

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth, for me anyway, never valued her children as individuals, even before the KGB told her that both of them would be recruited.  She always either ignored them (I don't mean their basic needs, I mean emotionally) or was only interested when something they did reflected well on her, or showed them to be like her. 

One thing that I wish had been more explicit here too was this aspect of Elizabeth. Re-watching the early eps Elizabeth is surrounded by people who are always telling her who she should be and even more explicitly who she is. It's one of the main things that make Philip stand out is how he doesn't do that. I'm re-watching Gregory and wow, it's amazing that a woman who stands up to Philip so aggressively when he wants to beat up the guy who hit her so casually accepts a man who is *constantly* dismissing everything she says because she's confused and he knows better. (Seriously, Gregory's coming across to me as such a manipulative weasel in this re-watch!)

But those are the people Elizabeth keeps gravitating towards for security or familiarity or something. Even when they're openly hostile to Philip she still seeks them out and tries to be the person they tell her she is or should be--that's the person she wants to be too. Plot-wise I can see how the ending turns on this because Elizabeth does ultimately realize that Claudia's using her and lying to her and she does think for herself as Philip told her to do. But it's still not a definitive break, exactly. She lets Granny live, as has been pointed out, and it's seemingly because she still has so much respect for her and her manipulation. There's several times when the show flirts with the idea of Elizabeth actually admitting that these people don't care about her and perhaps this will lead her to see they're not worthy of leadership, but it's only ever hints.

Hell, even when Philip is the one acting for the good of the country her confession that he's right is reluctant and embedded in more accusations about how he's terrible. She's pleased and compassionate when he's torturing himself to follow orders again, but is self-righteous about all her own actions up until the end to everybody she finds herself in conflict with. In fact, of all of them the one she's the most deferential to is Claudia.

Edited July 29, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Erin9]

@sistermagpie  Gotcha. I had thought you agreed that Elizabeth’s POV towards Henry had changed, so I was confused. But- IA- HENRY would not know that. And Henry had to hear those words from Philip- because Philip had given him his time. Philip knew him.

I usually look at the final call as what P/E say to Henry and a little about how he responds. But, in re-watching- Philip is the one who gets the details he didn’t even ask for. Philip found out what he was doing exactly- ping pong. Philip knew why he was rushing to get off the phone. Henry voluntarily explained more. I may be overthinking it, but it seems notable that Philip gets the details in the end. Philip has the relationship where Henry assumes he’s seeing him- and only him- next week. The relationships are totally different- and it’s obvious both based on what E/P say and how Henry responds to them. 

Regarding Henry- I don’t really love the whole conversation about Henry doing what it takes to stay in school. I get why it existed based in the end, but it’s not my favorite thing to watch. Mostly I just feel bad for Philip. However-  the boys fighting over the radio station was one of my favorite small moments. That is such a typical parent/kid moment. I love that. I bet they’d had that “argument” a few times.

As annoyed as I am about the lack of backstory for Philip- and I am- I have less of an issue about him apparently (?) not communicating with his brother. This possibly may be an issue where the writers didn’t decide he had one until S5- so that was part of it. But-  I think a mother/daughter is likely to be better at that kind of communication- even those two- than brothers imo. I’m not sure- is it made clear there was zero communication between them? Or is it just that it wasn’t necessary to explain Philip the way Elizabeth’s mother’s communication was. 

What annoys me most is we never found out how his father died. He repeatedly mentions his father died at age 6- a life changer- and all we know is it wasn’t in the war. One sentence could have explained that. It’s not that hard. At least with his mom, I think it’s easy to assume she likely died while he was in America and before the show started. It fits what he’s said, and what we saw of his family later. 

 I think perhaps the biggest difference  between him and Elizabeth is- regardless of Philip’s childhood traumas- he was always able to engage with his children, love them as they were, be a good husband, know how spying should fit- or not- into his life as a whole, think for himself, etc. Elizabeth was a mess BECAUSE of her mother. Everything came back to that. Her whole life was a replication of her mother’s line of thinking until the end- when she pulled away.  You never get that Philip’s family fundamentally screwed him up. He was never as messed up to begin. That doesn’t make him or his story less important or interesting though.

In my mind- it makes sense that sometime after Philip got to Moscow,  he encouraged/helped his brother get there. (I assume Philip’s brother and Mischa are both in Moscow too.) It’s common for one family member to move from the country/small town  to the city (or another country)- see the opportunities and get other family to follow. I wish they’d explained this, but it seems logical to me.

IA- that while Philip doesn’t need Gabriel to find Mischa- Gabriel would be invested in that happening. He certainly knew just how much Mischa wanted it. And Philip would certainly want to check on him  and have a relationship with him. 

I think the flash forward to S6 worked very well for all the characters EXCEPT Paige. Everyone else landed in a place personally, professionally, and relationship wise that felt real, true to the characters- that I didn’t have to really give any thought to “how” they wound up there. It fit. I didn’t need to see it to easily understand.

Trying to explain end of season 5 Paige being a spy by the next season takes some work. I can guess. I can see how maybe she thought she was too messed up, had no other options, wanted to bond with her mom- but skipping over that is more problematic. With all the time they had in S5 that set all the other characters up to believably be where they were- they didn’t do a good enough job with Paige. 

I never liked Gregory either. He struck me as manipulative, too. He wasn’t that respectful of Elizabeth. He basically said she was wrong in her choices- about her kids, Philip, what she now valued. But he acted like he did respect her, that he got her the way no one could. 

I did think it was interesting that Elizabeth went off about being lied to by the centre’s leadership in the garage. The way she trailed off at the end of her spiel was telling:  she’s pretty disillusioned. She finally accepted how screwed up things were. 

There were pacing issues in the last 2 seasons. No doubt. It could have been better. But, it was still, depending on the episode, good to great imo. 

[sistermagpie]

41 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I usually look at the final call as what P/E say to Henry and a little about how he responds. But, in re-watching- Philip is the one who gets the details he didn’t even ask for. Philip found out what he was doing exactly- ping pong. Philip knew why he was rushing to get off the phone. Henry voluntarily explained more. I may be overthinking it, but it seems notable that Philip gets the details in the end. Philip has the relationship where Henry assumes he’s seeing him- and only him- next week. The relationships are totally different- and it’s obvious both based on what E/P say and how Henry responds to them. 

I do think there's a lot of significance in those small details. Not only is there just the basic thing that Elizabeth and Henry have awkward interactions now because they don't speak, but I think maybe he also automatically thinks his mother wouldn't be interested in too many details. Like...it's not that he expects her to lecture him or be scornful about it or anything, but he automatically doesn't offer her details about things he doesn't think she values. If they had the relationship they should have Henry would probably be more joking about it--like he'd know this isn't the type of thing his mom would necessarily be into but that would just be a way to tease her. And maybe she would be into it and just tell him to make sure he wins or whatever.

Interesting that it's also in contrast with Paige saying to her mother that she should have done "what Henry did" in getting as far away from her as possible because Paige is trying to hurt Elizabeth by saying that Henry doesn't want to have anything to do with her instead of the other way around.

I think this also again goes to why Henry's difficult for Elizabeth. When Paige is angry at her she'll challenge her and demand satisfaction. With Henry he just accepted things and kept his anger to himself, but his behavior is actually very kind to her. He tries to joke with her about the cigarette, answers her questions on the phone in a way that's supposed to make her feel comfortable. She never gets a chance to rant self-righteously at him because he never accuses her of anything or ever really tries to get through to her, even while he sees her as a big possible source of his father's terrible state.

46 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

As annoyed as I am about the lack of backstory for Philip- and I am- I have less of an issue about him apparently (?) not communicating with his brother. This possibly may be an issue where the writers didn’t decide he had one until S5- so that was part of it. But-  I think a mother/daughter is likely to be better at that kind of communication- even those two- than brothers imo. I’m not sure- is it made clear there was zero communication between them? Or is it just that it wasn’t necessary to explain Philip the way Elizabeth’s mother’s communication was. 

It's not something I usually think of specifically because I do think it's possible that siblings weren't given that option. It's possible Philip's mother sent tapes and then died or that he didn't have parents by then and his brother wasn't asked because that's not how it worked. The show doesn't automatically say there's no communication--he could be getting tapes off-screen, but then, Elizabeth's mother also received pictures of the family so if Petya was getting those he'd probably say that to Mischa. (But then, Gabriel could tell him plenty about Philip's life in the US so...whatever.) The main thing just seems to be that it was always built into Elizabeth's storyline that her relationship with her mother was incredibly important. It mirrored her relationship with Paige and was one of the biggest things that made her the way she was. For Philip not only was he not getting tapes that we saw, when they talked about his past it was more about his environment than the people in his family.

If Elizabeth's mother was just like Elizabeth that's also another reason the Centre might have wanted her to have those tapes. Like it's not for her, it's because they know her mother's useful to them.

50 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

What annoys me most is we never found out how his father died. He repeatedly mentions his father died at age 6- a life changer- and all we know is it wasn’t in the war. One sentence could have explained that. It’s not that hard. At least with his mom, I think it’s easy to assume she likely died while he was in America and before the show started. It fits what he’s said, and what we saw of his family later. 

Especially since the show wound up sometimes making it seem like life was hard when his father was alive and later it was...better. Which okay, it's further from the war at that point, but not that much further and they're in Siberia. Where they've just lost the one salary they were living on. How on earth did they live after that? Elizabeth's childhood was much more stable by comparison. They also even bring up the camp and make it almost seem as if these were things Philip had only heard about (I think he asks Elizabeth if she knew about them, but she doesn't ask him for details as if they're in different boats on that) when he was living in one or near one. There's not even any reason to trust the straightforward story of his dad being a guard and that was just the job he had.

The mom could have died before he was in America too, from what we know. One could argue she didn't because Philip didn't say his dad died when he was six and his mom when he was whatever other age, but that would still work if his father's death was the more confusing and traumatic for him and the family. Even Paige never thinks to ask either time he mentions his father dying when his mother died, since she wouldn't have any memories of her either. Nor does she ask how he died! If Philip thought his father was a logger, did he have a false idea about his father's death as well?

57 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

In my mind- it makes sense that sometime after Philip got to Moscow,  he encouraged/helped his brother get there. (I assume Philip’s brother and Mischa are both in Moscow too.) It’s common for one family member to move from the country/small town  to the city (or another country)- see the opportunities and get other family to follow. I wish they’d explained this, but it seems logical to me.

I don't think it was that easy in the USSR. I'm not any expert on this, but I don't believe people were allowed to just move somewhere--especially Moscow. You needed special permission. Perhaps Philip's job gave him the ability to get his brother this kind of pass--if so, it would be nice to know that because it would fit with his personality and I think reality if Petya's family wasn't allowed to talk about Philip but were always very aware of them as the family's benefactor who got them their much better living situation. So he's not just the relative they're not supposed to talk about, he's a very important, albeit invisible, figure in the house and that makes him an even bigger curiosity for his nephew.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I never liked Gregory either. He struck me as manipulative, too. He wasn’t that respectful of Elizabeth. He basically said she was wrong in her choices- about her kids, Philip, what she now valued. But he acted like he did respect her, that he got her the way no one could. 

He didn't bother me as much the first time around as he is on this re-watch. If he didn't have the surface cool of Derek Luke and the whole atmosphere he'd come across so much worse. I'll definitely write more about that when I finish the episode! 

 

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I think the flash forward to S6 worked very well for all the characters EXCEPT Paige. Everyone else landed in a place personally, professionally, and relationship wise that felt real, true to the characters- that I didn’t have to really give any thought to “how” they wound up there. It fit. I didn’t need to see it to easily understand.

I didn't have any real questions about the characters except for Paige, who they were never really ready to explain, it seemed. I just never felt completely stabilized after it and wished they could have gotten where they wanted to go without that break.

[Umbelina]

No, Philip's brother wouldn't have choices.  The state told you where you would live, and told you where you would work.  With the USSR falling apart, he'd be lucky to have food, let alone anything else, like a bus ticket.

Yes, I agree, they just threw Philip's brother in there, because they had to have somewhere to put Misha after that wasted and non-nonsensical smooth escape to the USA. 

Still, you have Philip TRYING to remember his childhood for many seasons, he goes to EST for that.  If he knew there was a living person he could actually ASK about it, don't you think that logically he would do that?  Of course he would.  His past was a disturbing blank to him, he had nightmares, and tried to remember it.

Of course, the flash forward could mean he eventually got off his ass and told his handler, "hey, my wife gets all these tapes, can't you do that for me too, and have my brother contact me, or send mine to him, maybe get him a tape recorder so he can hear it.  Or, tell you what, I'll just write to him, and you'll take care of the delivery, right?"

Again, the showrunners, IMO, didn't want to.  All they wanted to do was create something interesting and disturbing, but they obviously had no intention of fleshing it out, or answering any of the questions Philip asked himself for several seasons.  That would take work!  That would be complicated!  Oh, and that would be about Philip, and we don't give a shit about him, this is Elizabeth and Paige's story.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, I agree, they just threw Philip's brother in there, because they had to have somewhere to put Misha after that wasted and non-nonsensical smooth escape to the USA. 

They didn't even need that! He had a grandfather in Moscow we already had to meet for some reason and we knew he'd been sent back to wherever he was before with Gabriel telling us he wouldn't be thrown back in the mental ward or in jail for what he did. There was really no reason whatsoever to give Philip a brother. Nobody in the audience was worried about Mischa not meeting somebody from Dad's side of the family. How could we be? It barely seemed like Dad had a family and there's no reason for them to be anywhere near Mischa Jr. if they did.

So it's like they created this character to solve a problem that didn't exist and just created a tease that made the whole thing make less sense. They didn't even put the brother into most of Philip's flashbacks. He's in one scene presumably just to prepare us for his appearance so we don't get another after-the-fact flashback like with Amador when Philip suddenly mentions him one time to Elizabeth who acts like this isn't news. Then in all the other flashbacks it's only Philip. Even one where the father seems to coming home late at night with food that Mom gives to l'il Phil right away. What, was his 8-year-old brother out late at the club that night? Was he watching his diet so passing on the late night snack? Sent to bed without supper? 

Then he shows up somehow in the same city--and the only city we have reason to think it is is Moscow--as Mischa Jr. as an adult with no explanation at all as to how he managed to switch continents.

Meanwhile, the scenes even tell us flat out that they're not going to give us any info on Philip. The grandfather never met the guy his daughter was in love with, probably planning to marry and who fathered her child even though she appeared to be living at home while this was going on (and according to at least some things I've read Russian families are notoriously nosy about this stuff). Uncle Petya only finally manages to come up with the information that he was truly exceptionally smart, even though you'd think the whole point of the dinner for Mischa Jr. would be to get some info. If they continued talking about him, the audience wasn't invited to listen in!

Meanwhile Elizabeth right down to the wire is still discovering Symbolic Set Pieces to use as flashbacks on her favorite themes.

[Erin9]

Well, in that case, since moving was no simple matter, I’ll go with the idea that Philip maybe used his KGB status to help his brother move. That fits- both him and the way the KGB was portrayed imo. But- it would be nice if they hadn’t just tossed all this out. I always find it interesting where the attention to detail starts and stops- not just in this show, but all shows. 

I do agree it was possible that tapes weren’t allowed between siblings or if Elizabeth really got hers because her mother kept her in line. She provided a useful function for the centre. 

I don’t think this was Paige and Elizabeth’s story though. Part of it, yes. Primarily, no. I’d put the marriage and Elizabeth herself as much higher priorities. Philip less so, I guess, because he was the less screwed up one.  But he was still more important than P/E imo.  To my surprise, my re-watch of S5 hasn’t felt inundated with P/E- not yet anyway.

They over did the flashbacks on Elizabeth though- that last set of her in training was unnecessary. We got it with her. They could have played FIB with Philip just so we knew. Even though his brother was tossed in, I like knowing Philip has one. There were no apparent issues between them. So- he has someone he grew up with to go home to. And Mischa is part of that. They weren’t utilized properly, but I still think they served a useful purpose. 

Back to Henry’s phone calls. He never questions Elizabeth about her sudden sentimentality or interest in his life in either call. And what also stands out about the first call is, it’s not a conversation as much as a Q&A Session because they don’t know how to talk to each other. That was such a sad conversation for many reasons. 

He then tells Philip his mom called just to talk to him. Pointedly. Philip didn’t ask. Henry wanted to talk to him. This led to Philip calling Elizabeth. But still- Henry went to Philip. He told Philip he didn’t get why she seemed so unhappy. Interestingly- Philip was thrown by that. He knew she was burned out and exhausted, obviously knew they’d not been getting along. He hadn’t realized that she was also that unhappy. But- then- supposedly she was doing what she wanted. She was the one insisting on continuing to spy. She chose to engage- or not- with her kids. And she wasn’t happy.

My re-watch of S5 is reminding me of how over it Elizabeth was becoming. I remembered her burning out, but I didn’t remember how prevelent it was. Gabriel saw it- repeatedly. Philip was just burning out faster and the one asking the questions- the bigger problem. Unlike Philip, she didn’t know how to stop before it destroyed her and her relationships so much. 

Back to the phone calls- Henry also told Philip how weird the out of the blue call was. He talks to the person he has the relationship with. Of course- Philip couldn’t tell Henry that he realized  Elizabeth was calling because she was afraid she was going to die and was realizing she didn’t know her son at all. He couldn’t help him there. 

In the final call- he asks Philip if he’s been drinking, suggests mom drive home. He talks to Philip about his state of mind, is trying to see where all of this sudden sentimentality is coming from. With Elizabeth he just responds to what she says, with less detail- even though this is the second weird conversation he’s had with his mom. But- he’s having more of a real conversation with his dad, even though he’s understandably thrown by it. 

[Umbelina]

22 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Well, in that case, since moving was no simple matter, I’ll go with the idea that Philip maybe used his KGB status to help his brother move. That fits- both him and the way the KGB was portrayed imo. But- it would be nice if they hadn’t just tossed all this out. I always find it interesting where the attention to detail starts and stops- not just in this show, but all shows. 

Philip just betrayed his boss at the KGB, the head guy, in charge of Directorat S was in the Coup.  He will be in NO position to ask for favors, as a matter of fact, he won't want to be anywhere near that guy, and even that may not save him and Elizabeth from being tortured and then killed in Lubyanka.

22 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

My re-watch of S5 is reminding me of how over it Elizabeth was becoming. I remembered her burning out, but I didn’t remember how prevelent it was. Gabriel saw it- repeatedly. Philip was just burning out faster and the one asking the questions- the bigger problem. Unlike Philip, she didn’t know how to stop before it destroyed her and her relationships so much. 

The only thing season 5 was about was "SPYING SUCKS!"  Every single spy was miserable, and became more miserable.  The rest was watching wheat grow, holes dug, and the boring parts of escaping from the USSR. 

ETA

It takes a lot of indifference and crappy writing to make escaping from the USSR in 1985 boring, but the show managed to do it.

I wish Misha had said (in Russian of course) "Fuck you old man!  I'm not going back to that hell hole.  I don't give a shit if my father doesn't want to see me, fuck him too then.  Do you know what it took to get here, how many times I was afraid I would die?  I'm going to grab some of this abundant food, and go someplace warm with a beach, screw you."

Edited July 30, 2018 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

@Umbelina I was talking about Philip’s status helping his brother move years ago, not in present time. But- from my read of the end of the story- Philip’s boss will be the one in trouble. (I know we disagree on this.) 

Yeah- S5 was everyone burning out. I do find interesting relationship and character moments mixed in. Matthew and Paige though was so chemistryless and uninteresting. I understand why they went there; it was a total mess for P/E/P to go through. And Philip’s reaction to the split? Priceless. So funny. “thank god” indeed. Him and the whole audience. 

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

@Umbelina I was talking about Philip’s status helping his brother move years ago, not in present time. But- from my read of the end of the story- Philip’s boss will be the one in trouble. (I know we disagree on this.) 

Yeah- S5 was everyone burning out. I do find interesting relationship and character moments mixed in. Matthew and Paige though was so chemistryless and uninteresting. I understand why they went there; it was a total mess for P/E/P to go through. And Philip’s reaction to the split? Priceless. So funny. “thank god” indeed. Him and the whole audience. 

Yes, we disagree because of history.  The KGB and the Mafia took over soon after the Coup.  Gorbachev wasn't strong enough to take on the KGB, and he knew it.  Most of the Coup members were military, KGB, or political leaders.  Either way, they will not be drawing attention to themselves, let alone asking for favors from their employers.  After the USSR falls, it will be a free for all, with starving and lost people everywhere, and nothing will work, since everyone walks away from their forced jobs because why the hell not?  No paychecks, no food...

Yes, the burning out was drummed into our heads endlessly.  There wasn't a spy on screen that wasn't burned out.  I remember commenting at the time, "Yeah, we got it the first 3937982 times, no need to repeat it again.  Gabe quit.  Oleg was at the end of his rope (nearly literally) and Elizabeth and Philip couldn't even get their marks interested in them.  Stan was over it too, and I think Aderholt hated "recruiting" as well.  Then, to really drum it in, they turned that nice Russian mother and wife into an unwilling future spy.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Well, in that case, since moving was no simple matter, I’ll go with the idea that Philip maybe used his KGB status to help his brother move. That fits- both him and the way the KGB was portrayed imo. But- it would be nice if they hadn’t just tossed all this out. I always find it interesting where the attention to detail starts and stops- not just in this show, but all shows. 

That's what's so odd to me--it's would have been such a nice touch if we'd learned that Philip's job had given him the ability to get his brother into a far better living situation than he'd have had any chance of having without him. It would have been so interesting to have this family feeling him as a living presence in the present day because they were benefiting from his position and maybe also generosity. Certainly it's something Philip would have done, especially if this was his only family. But the whole gist of the scene seems based on the idea that what the audience really cares about is Mischa having this family.

it's just so frustrating because so many things having to do with Philip and Russia are like that. Details that don't fit together and ultimately are more about other people, often characters we don't even know. It's so strange!

Not that I needed his flashbacks to be done like Elizabeth's where he has flashbacks to some bully forcing him to eat dog shit and that explains why he's letting Henry having a second scoop of ice cream or whatever. I really liked how visceral his flashbacks were and how they were so often more about routine things rather than memories that stood out because someone said something important.

24 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I don’t think this was Paige and Elizabeth’s story though. Part of it, yes. Primarily, no. I’d put the marriage and Elizabeth herself as much higher priorities. Philip less so, I guess, because he was the less screwed up one.  But he was still more important than P/E imo.  To my surprise, my re-watch of S5 hasn’t felt inundated with P/E- not yet anyway.

I think a big part of it is that Paige was so much part of Elizabeth's story. She was a character that Elizabeth saw as her big duty to make like herself. Plus she was the character who was there to deal with the price of lying because she was the kid who learned the truth and was brought into it. The parents both had to react to her reactions to what they'd done.

I think that's especially clear in the last season where Paige even stops having a story that's about her doing stuff to figure out her own shit and just becomes about her playing a role that she's completely unsuited for. Like back when she was in the church she was doing stuff to get her parents' attention and define herself. In S6 she's just going through the motions onscreen. Her real story is her coming to her big realization about her mother, but it's not like we're really with her for that the way we were for a lot of her earlier stuff. We never meet the infamous Brian. He exists only in conversations where Paige is talking about one thing (that the audience doesn't really realize because that's how little we're in her head) and Elizabeth is talking about another. So many of her lines are just...weak. That is, talking about spying in a way that's completely uninvested in it.

It's in some ways like she's still playing her part with Pastor Tim only she's not as aware of it. She keeps insisting she just wants to change the world yadda yadda but what she's really looking for is just what she was first interested in S1--a boyfriend. I don't mean that in a totally dismissive way, either. I'm not saying she's shallow, more that ultimately finding love is more important to her than her cause. Again there she reflects Elizabeth who kept telling herself the Cause is what she should care about but who's made happy by Philip, the one person who accepts her without the Cause.

40 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Back to the phone calls- Henry also told Philip how weird the out of the blue call was. He talks to the person he has the relationship with. Of course- Philip couldn’t tell Henry that he realized  Elizabeth was calling because she was afraid she was going to die and was realizing she didn’t know her son at all. He couldn’t help him there. 

Yes, I was thinking about that to with regards to how he relates to her. Like I said he's basically kind to her when she tries to reach out and I think he goes to Philip in part because he, too, knows that something strange is happening. He doesn't know how to talk to her himself. But he also doesn't see it as his natural responsibility--he doesn't throw himself into it. He accepts that he doesn't get these two but knows his mom and dad have understanding. He knows there's something going on between them so his dad will probably understand what's going on in ways he won't.

He also brings up their relationship directly to his father. I think he does accept his father's assurance that their marriage is fine, even though Philip stops himself from going into his feelings about it. It's kind of interesting that there's always a lot of focus on Stan and Henry talking about girls when it's usually very cliche, but I think Henry gets by the last season that his parents' relationship is very complicated and private, something he probably never thought about in earlier seasons. It seems like he has a much more mature pov on his parents' relationship than Paige does, and I don't think it's just because his distance gives him a different perspective. Maybe it's that it seems like Paige still always seems to look at them mostly for how they affect her and relate to her, (which includes their spy career once she learns about it) while Henry sees them as having lives that are mostly about things beyond his knowledge.

[Umbelina]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't know if I'm right in thinking this but, for instance, isn't his journey to the US even more amazing given he was out in Siberia? Maybe it doesn't matter when they're looking for good students but I'm currently reading a book where the characters from Siberia seem to emphasize that there's a reason that word's synonymous with exile.

You are correct.  From that 3 hour documentary I PM'd you on Gulags, and Philip's hometown was known for it's Gulag, most people, whether guards or the few prisoners who actually survived, stayed.  There was no place to go, and no money to get there.  They interview several people, both former prisoners and guards, and they all pretty much say everyone stayed, there was no way out of those towns for those people.

One woman talked about the sanctioned rapes, they would bring the male prisoners in and let them rape all of the women.  Many of the women died during the rapes, and they would just throw the dead out into the snow and continue to rape others, gang rapes.  They were so malnourished and so drastically worked, that their uterus would often fall right out, and still, the men found a way to rape them.  The guards of course, raped them whenever they wanted to.

When Oleg's mother said she had a "protector" which meant she was his private sexual property, she meant it when she said that's why she survived.  Without a protector, most women died, if not from the backbreaking work and cold and starvation, then from the rapes.  The head of that particular camp in the video was an artist, and he drew pictures of the various prisoners in various states of dying, he proudly showed them off to the camera.s

That's where Philip grew up, or a place just like it.  His dad died when he was young, leaving his mother to do what there?  They were already starving, and freezing with his salary.  How much worse did it get when he was gone?  Was the guard's house they were assigned reassigned to a working guard after he died?  What happened?  How much more interesting would have that been than watching Elizabeth care for her sick mother?

Decided to link the video in case anyone wants to watch it.  It's seriously good.  I also thought Philip's dad may have been one of the executioners, when he returned with those bloody boots.  In this video they are excavating unmarked mass graves, where they would just take the freezing prisoners off the packed standing only train (similar to holocaust trains) and march them up a hill and shoot them all down. 

[Erin9]

Siberia seems so synonymous with exile/prison. It kind of makes me wonder if Philip’s family wound up there due to the Tsar sending them there at some point. We’ll never know, of course. 

I re-read The New Yorker review on the finale- specifically the garage scene- and this sentence really resonated: It’s an act of domination camouflaged as an act of submission. Yep. About sums it up. Sure- Philip was honest about a lot of things when talking to Stan, but his goal was to drive away. 

[Pink-n-Green]

On 6/2/2018 at 12:05 AM, SusanSunflower said:

Yeah, goes back a couple of seasons, but for me William's loneliness was a sentinel cruelty of the spying life .... and something Paige had entered into unwittingly .... and now was locked into. 

Back when William was alive, did he ever mention anything about why he didn't have a partner?  I remember Elizabeth telling Tuan to contact the Centre and demand that they find a partner for him and it made me wonder why poor William was all by himself.