Roswell, New Mexico: In the Media

[Cristofle]

40 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Some sites are reporting she got fired for protesting about ITV cutting "a tame love scene" and making her sound like she stood up for her anti homophobia/biphobia/bigotry principles so its not all bad for her to leave them up. But probably won't help her land another job where she doesn't have a friend willing to give her another boost. 

I think that is what she's trying, but it's not going to go over well with anyone who might be otherwise inclined to give her a job, because she is factually incorrect. They also edited Max and Cam's love scene as well as violent scenes. 

[Featherhat]

2 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I think that is what she's trying, but it's not going to go over well with anyone who might be otherwise inclined to give her a job, because she is factually incorrect. They also edited Max and Cam's love scene as well as violent scenes. 

Oh I agree but some are conveniently leaving out that part or downplaying it and making her more of a martyr and not mentioning anything else THR accused her of. 

[Avabelle]

I think if anyone strongly felt she’d been hard done by there’d have been some push back toward THR. The silence on the back of it speaks volumes.

Jeanine’s lack of response to Carinas exit post and flat out denial of their being any issues between them speaks volumes too.

[Kymmi]

Has there been any official statement from Warner Bros on this? It's very unusual for something at this level to not have a boiler plate "we thank so-and-so for all of their hard work and wish them well blah blah blah"

[Cristofle]

31 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Oh I agree but some are conveniently leaving out that part or downplaying it and making her more of a martyr and not mentioning anything else THR accused her of. 

It suggests to me she's more invested in "staying in good" with Michael/Alex stans than in furthering her career, and somehow that does not surprise me.

[Avabelle]

Yep. As someone who came to forefront for being a glorified Fan girl it doesn’t shock me that her career ambitions only go as far as creating toxic Ships for fans to bicker over.

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Avabelle

[Regalbegal]

On 7/10/2020 at 7:47 PM, Chick2Chic said:

Supposedly they're "quarantining together"

When guilty pleasure shows collide.  They are both so very pretty....

I really hope more of the tea comes out about the show runner's firing.  There is clearly some HR story there that keeps getting alluded to, whether involving Jeanine or someone(s) else...

[ellieart]

1 hour ago, Kymmi said:

Has there been any official statement from Warner Bros on this? It's very unusual for something at this level to not have a boiler plate "we thank so-and-so for all of their hard work and wish them well blah blah blah"

No official statement yet, though I would imagine it's coming.  It could be that they're ironing out the details with Chris Hollier if he's taking over as the sole showrunner.  Unless, of course, they're throwing everyone for a loop and bringing in someone new entirely.  THAT would be an interesting turn of events.

But still kinda weird that the CW/WB/Amblin didn't already put out the typical "thank you" statement and opt to announce a new showrunner at a later time.  Hmmmm

Edited July 13, 2020 by ellieart

[methodwriter85]

On 7/11/2020 at 12:35 AM, phoenics said:

HOLY Shikes that is damning.  I mean - wow.  I read through that thread - he is calling her out completely.  He calls her White women Woke and says it's all about her centering white characters and then having the PoC dancing around in the background as props.

Whew.

I knew going in to S2 that it was gonna be a mess and I bolted before my eyes bled - but no idea it was going to be THIS Bad and that she was just going to continue her reign of racist terror in S3.

One chuckle I have gotten out of this is that Michael Vlamis is going to have to grow up really fast - no more gravy train with Carina where you get over and the expense of the cast - except Alex.

I've peeped Michael Vlamis's Instagram and he comes off as being emotionally stunted at about 17 years old. I would not say he comes off as obnoxious, but maturity is not his strong suit. I guess that's why he got along so well with Carina- they've both emotionally teenaged! He was like the cool high school senior being crushed on by Carina's cow-eyed 9th grader.

[Avabelle]

That’s what her whole mantra seems to be - making up for not being in the cool crowd in high school.

[Lady Calypso]

On 7/11/2020 at 3:04 AM, Avabelle said:

Who is Kamran pasha? Was he a writer?

i genuinely think Carina thought hitching herself to tHe gay couple would make her untouchable. That way anyone disagreeing with her she could call out as homophobic/bigoted. Somewhere along the way though she seemed to get even more big headed and took it upon herself to be become the speaker of the LGBT community.

She not only thought that she'd become the speaker for the LGBTQ community, but also for the Latinx community. She talks a lot about diversity and all that but...isn't she a straight white woman? How can she stand up and act like she's a speaker for both communities if she isn't part of either one? And it's not like I mind the fact that an ally can help speak up in favour of diversity; Carina just does it in a holier-than-thou way. And she even pushed aside the women of colour to favour the gay/bisexual white males (because, sorry, I don't care if Tyler Blackburn has some Native American in him, he's still 95% white; it doesn't sound like he has Native American family members in his immediate family). I mean, they cast Amber Midthunder, an actual Native American actress, to play a Latina woman. Even though Amber looks very similar to Jeanine, there are still blatant differences. Not to mention Kayla Ewell's husband who plays Alex's brother is also white. And then the only actual Native American actor they cast to play a Manes is the villain.

So, if firing Carina is a way to fix their diversity and LGBTQ issue, then I'm all for it. Carina has a lot to learn and I do hope she learns from this. But with her and her clique, they all have to grow up sometime. And I do not want her running a show again unless she grows up and matures, which I don't see happening at her age. Like, woman, you're 33 years old. It's time to stop acting like a fangirl.

[peachmangosteen]

2 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Like, woman, you're 33 years old. It's time to stop acting like a fangirl.

This I gotta disagree with. You can be a fangirl forever! It's not the fact that Carina is a fangirl that's the problem imo.

[Bloga]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

She not only thought that she'd become the speaker for the LGBTQ community, but also for the Latinx community. She talks a lot about diversity and all that but...isn't she a straight white woman? How can she stand up and act like she's a speaker for both communities if she isn't part of either one? And it's not like I mind the fact that an ally can help speak up in favour of diversity; Carina just does it in a holier-than-thou way. And she even pushed aside the women of colour to favour the gay/bisexual white males (because, sorry, I don't care if Tyler Blackburn has some Native American in him, he's still 95% white; it doesn't sound like he has Native American family members in his immediate family). I mean, they cast Amber Midthunder, an actual Native American actress, to play a Latina woman. Even though Amber looks very similar to Jeanine, there are still blatant differences. Not to mention Kayla Ewell's husband who plays Alex's brother is also white. And then the only actual Native American actor they cast to play a Manes is the villain.

So, if firing Carina is a way to fix their diversity and LGBTQ issue, then I'm all for it. Carina has a lot to learn and I do hope she learns from this. But with her and her clique, they all have to grow up sometime. And I do not want her running a show again unless she grows up and matures, which I don't see happening at her age. Like, woman, you're 33 years old. It's time to stop acting like a fangirl.

       To be fair, the guy who plays Gregory Manes is half First Nation Canadian, everything else, you´re absolutely right, Tyler Blackburn is not Indigenous, definitely not half Native American, nor he has any real attachment to Indigenous culture. I was also surprised they cast Amber as Mexican American, tbh Jeanine is kind of an odd choice, sure she´s Latina, but she´s a direct descendant of the Cuban white elite that came to the States as asylum seekers during the early stages of the Cuban revolution...so when I see her and Nathan together playing Liz and Max, I really don´t see much of a difference in terms of race.

    Being an ally to a specific marginalized group should never be an excuse to marginalize and erase other underrepresented groups, if you put people down in order to lift others up, you´re a garbage person, period. I think people like Carina fail upwards, she´ll soon be writing for another show, even if it´s on the downlow.

[Lady Calypso]

Quote

To be fair, the guy who plays Gregory Manes is half First Nation Canadian

And that is something I didn't know, or remember, so thanks for the correction!

 

[phoenics]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

She not only thought that she'd become the speaker for the LGBTQ community, but also for the Latinx community. She talks a lot about diversity and all that but...isn't she a straight white woman? How can she stand up and act like she's a speaker for both communities if she isn't part of either one? And it's not like I mind the fact that an ally can help speak up in favour of diversity; Carina just does it in a holier-than-thou way. And she even pushed aside the women of colour to favour the gay/bisexual white males (because, sorry, I don't care if Tyler Blackburn has some Native American in him, he's still 95% white; it doesn't sound like he has Native American family members in his immediate family). I mean, they cast Amber Midthunder, an actual Native American actress, to play a Latina woman. Even though Amber looks very similar to Jeanine, there are still blatant differences. Not to mention Kayla Ewell's husband who plays Alex's brother is also white. And then the only actual Native American actor they cast to play a Manes is the villain.

This.

My main issue with Carina appointing herself as spokesperson for marginalized communities is that it's theater.  She literally was PERSONALLY taking up space and making herself the authority.  She didn't listen to the marginalized community she was trashing in her bid to prop Malex.  Hell - if she had, she NEVER would have done that triangle.  Who does that when only one side will win?  A side was going to lose and end up even MORE marginalized.  And for some reason, it was the black woman, while the two white men were catered to.

Finally - an ally doesn't take up space!  An ally MAKES space and amplifies the voices of the marginalized.  An ally NEVER talks over them or dismisses them and an ALLY doesn't center herself and her understanding.

That's all Carina ever did - it was always about her - Malex just happened to be the coattails she was going to ride to glory on after the whole immigrant thing didn't really hit as hard as Malex did.  After that, nothing else on the show stood a chance.

Because it wasn't about the people issues affect, it was about HER.

I'm so glad I'm on record as hating her fake!woke arse before she got fired, lol.

[methodwriter85]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Like, woman, you're 33 years old. It's time to stop acting like a fangirl.

She's only 33? I literally thought she was at least 40. 

[Featherhat]

I think you can be a fanboy/girl and still write a direct a show or movie - loads of sci fi and genre shows and movies are created by fangirls and boys. Some of them occasionally behave that way on twitter. I remember pre twitter and early twitter Shonda Rhimes, Betsy Beers and Krista Vernoff acting like that in some early blogs for Greys Anatomy over the leading men and the ships. And many admit they have preferences in shipping and characters (OUAT creators fanboying over Regina and showing it on screen), although most do it more professionally and acknowledge other fans - at least whilst the triangle is still in place. 

Carina just came across very obnoxiously and like she didn't know when to keep her mouth shut or use her showrunner contacts and find out the truth rather than crying and lashing out at ITV as if she was only still a fan reacting to a garbled report that someone had done something negative to her ship and she went on the OUTRAGE! ATTACK!! Like she was nothing to do with her own show, where someone else would have said something more diplomatic or nothing until they'd checked. 

Then there's the issue of making Maria very much a third wheel in the triangle, despite half hearted attempts to show otherwise and show her briefly as Alex's actual friend only to F that up. On the one hand it's theoretically progressive to have a triangle where they are no straight white people. OTOH at least one group desperate for representation is going to be disappointed and pitted against each other in nasty fandom ways (which she must have known). A more experienced showrunner could have handled that better or given Maria a different love interest right off the bat.  And racebending Maria only to not go with Michael/Maria but Malex, feels deliberate, like she was a diversity prop and nothing more. (We now also have accusations that she torpedoed Maria storylines in the writers room). And her obvious shipping of Malex combined with other behaviour just ends up feeling like the biggest cliché of a fangirl stereotype obsessed with two white boys kissing, even if she genuinely wants to be a straight ally in normalising queer relationships on TV. 

She did do her yelling about diversity and "authentic stories of NM" and bisexuality in quite a holier than thou way, which Kamran Pasha specifically called out, saying that she screams it loudly because she's nothing like that IRL and ignored Latinx writers trying to correct something she got wrong about their culture.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Featherhat

[Chick2Chic]

51 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I'm so glad I'm on record as hating her fake!woke arse before she got fired, lol.

Same. I just hope to see more in the mainstream media about Carina's misogynoir. That is still being overlooked. I wish i was surprised about that, though

48 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

I think you can be a fanboy/girl and still write a direct a show or movie - loads of sci fi and genre shows and movies are created by fangirls and boys.

IA. I have seen this and while some are far worse / more obvious regarding preferences and how they treat the show material due to those feelings - looking at you Roberto Aguirre Sacasa of Riverdale & Chilling Adventures of Sabrina and the S2 showrunners of Sleepy Hollow- some are able to be loud fans yet care about the overall material of the product without being obnoxious and self-serving. The showrunner of Killjoys was good about balance yet you could tell she was a total fangirl about the characters.

 

On 7/13/2020 at 3:40 PM, ellieart said:

But still kinda weird that the CW/WB/Amblin didn't already put out the typical "thank you" statement and opt to announce a new showrunner at a later time.  Hmmmm

Seems to me that they just wanted Carina the hell up out of Roswell NM and all the other stuff could be ironed out later. And I'll be curious to see if they thank her at all. IMO her "thanks" from them was her being allowed "to resign" when it reads like she was flat out sacked.

[ellieart]

6 hours ago, Bloga said:

       To be fair, the guy who plays Gregory Manes is half First Nation Canadian, everything else, you´re absolutely right, Tyler Blackburn is not Indigenous, definitely not half Native American, nor he has any real attachment to Indigenous culture. I was also surprised they cast Amber as Mexican American, tbh Jeanine is kind of an odd choice, sure she´s Latina, but she´s a direct descendant of the Cuban white elite that came to the States as asylum seekers during the early stages of the Cuban revolution...so when I see her and Nathan together playing Liz and Max, I really don´t see much of a difference in terms of race.

Carina did an Instagram Q&A way back in season one and I asked her why she chose to cast Amber as Rosa, since she's very openly Native American, instead of a Latina actress. The answer I received was that Amber didn't know her full heritage because her mom was adopted and she had only recently found out she was Latina.  I called bullshit on it then and I'm still calling bullshit on it now.  I've never seen Amber reference this once (if she has, please let me know, I'll happily retract my statement), I've only seen a few things saying she's mixed ethnicities, which include Spanish.  Spanish isn't the same as being Latin American.  Amber is immersed in her indigenous culture and is a proud Lakota, this is incredibly obvious looking at her social media.  CAM should have just said she was cast because of her likeness to Jeanine, which is way more likely.

It was also very interesting to me that she cast the Cuban-American Jeanine as the Mexican-American Liz Ortecho, thus taking the role away from an Mexican actress who could have brought more authenticity to the role and the character's struggle.  Yes, she's Latina, but to me she's very obviously Cuban.  I'm all for rep on my screen, but I'd have loved to have seen an actual Mexican actress in the role.  I guess one just wasn't available 🙄

[Cristofle]

When I look at Jeanine, it's obvious to me she's not of Mexican descent. I mean, I'm glad she's not white Liz Parker, lol, we're moving in the right direction on that front, but I think there ARE Mexican-American actresses out there who I bet would've loved the role. 

I've said before - I think Tyler has claimed some Native American heritage but that's very dicey since as far as I know, he has no affiliation with any tribe. 

[sweetandsour]

I don't understand how she has sold herself this narrative (and tries to sell to fans/viewers) that she's such a trailblazer fighting the good fight and paying the consequences for refusing to back down on her principles.  I mean, I do understand how - it benefits her self-image to do that.  But it feels like she thinks what she has tried to do (badly) with two male leads is soooo amazing and unprecedented because the shows she has personally been obsessed with (SPN and TVD, right?) haven't done m/m storylines with leads.  Like, is she not aware that many, many shows have portrayed important gay male storylines and relationships of far higher quality?  And that they did not throw POC aside and under the bus to do so?

Nothing she does on her end and on her SM is ever going to help her industry reputation.  I'm not sure if she actually gets this privately, but publicly she's doing her best to overcompensate and portray this image of her standing tall, no tail between her legs here, no way.  But I suspect she doesn't understand this privately, either.  And this is one way being a fangirl and living by fandom rules is really not doing her any favors.  When it comes to being in fandom and writing fanfiction, there are no bosses or stakeholders that need to be appeased.  Criticizing and spurning choices TPTB have made is typically a huge part of fandom, and there are no loss consequences for doing so.  A lot of fanfic is born out of this directly.  AO3, Fanfiction.net, and readers aren't going to take away your platform unless you're violating Terms of Service.  You can have very strong, even antagonistic, opinions and stick to your guns - there's no money or jobs at stake.  But you can't transplant this way of thinking and these behaviors from fandom to working in the industry.  I don't think CAM has gotten this memo.  It's like she thinks fandom rules still apply and all you need to do is get some other fans on your side.  Her pandering to fans and trying to manage their perceptions of her and her work doesn't get her anywhere in terms of securing a bigger platform again and being trusted by TPTB.

[AveMaria30]

(if this isn't allowed, feel free to remove and my apologies! 😓)  This is from a few days ago but has me curious about the source - because I do think she likely was fired (and the tweeter is wrong about the ITV stuff anyway) 

[Featherhat]

Well Carina resigning because WB wanted her to be in complete sole charge of a plotline about racism and she didn't feel it was appropriate would be 100% at odds with what one of her writers claimed about her "fake wokeness", "racist bullying" and nixing of plots for Maria. Also against what THR claimed about her control freak nature of re writing scripts and against some of her own previous statements where she seemed perfectly comfortable being the person in charge of a hell of a lot of narratives (illegal aliens, Latinx culture, queer coming out, bisexuality, being a WOC and others)  that have nothing to do with her personally. And in fact took a lot of personal credit for them. 

I don't think they need to completely change *showrunners* in order to do a BLM arc on the show or at least shows that have showrunners who genuinely want to make the best story they can out of it don't, but they would definitely need to hire/promote and make sure they listen to black writers, producers and consultants and let them take the reins for those parts as well as the black actors involved. Allegedly the black writers they had left the show because of her which is a terrible start. 

As much as I have disliked CAM since her fangirl days I'm taking some of what KP said with just a touch of salt but I'm extremely  skeptical of this "very credible" source that paints Carina in an extremely principled light against racist, homophobic WB (and I'm not saying they have a good track record in this regard) and apparently didn't know about Watershed issues in the UK. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Featherhat

[Morrigan2575]

Hahahaha. That's a load of bull shit

As much as I have disliked CAM since her fangirl days I'm taking some of what KP said with just a touch of salt

Who is KP?  I see that and think of KenP the pap in Vancouver but, I didn't think he'd know anything about NM filming/Cast/Crew

Edited July 15, 2020 by Morrigan2575

[Featherhat]

13 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Hahahaha. That's a load of bull shit

 

 

Who is KP?  I see that and think of KenP the pap in Vancouver but, I didn't think he'd know anything about NM filming/Cast/Crew

Kamran Pasha, an ex writer on RNM who when Carina was fired/left went on a tweet spree accusing her of literally everything under the sun (racism, bullying, sexual harassment, control freakdom, hypocrisy, "fake wokeness" not being a real Muslim) and much more, you can see some of the tweets and paraphrasing of them on the previous page, he had now locked down his account. It was clearly pretty visceral for him. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Featherhat

[Morrigan2575]

Thanks!  knew about the writer, forgot his name. I'm so awful with names.  

[Avabelle]

Honestly wouldn’t surprise me if that account is Carina herself in disguise. 
 

id also take the sources of Hollywood reported over the sources of a twitter account.

[sweetandsour]

Wow, I, too, call incredible bullshit on the idea that execs wanted Carina to be solely in charge of black-centered storylines, but she said no.  She has never thought she wasn't able to write for marginalized groups before, so why would she balk now?  Unless she soured on the idea that she would be held accountable for writing for Maria and any other black characters, at the expense of the attention she wants to lavish on Michael and Alex.

And in terms of the network as a whole - let's not pretend that the CW doesn't have black shows with lots of black talent behind and in front of the camera.  Why would execs say, for Roswell only, "nope, we refuse to hire any black producers - it must be you, Carina, because look at how much season 2 ratings have eroded (the distinction of having the steepest season-over-season drop-offs of all CW shows) and how little you've written for your only black series regular in the past two years.  You are The Chosen One."

Black Lightning and All-American have materially higher ratings than Roswell.  And no, I don't think this is only because they are fall shows or comic/football-related.  I watch both shows - they're not perfect, but their black characters live unmistakably black lives and are not props for white characters.  All-American actually grew in ratings s2 over s1.  (Obviously, Netflix streaming was a big part of exposure, but viewers stayed on.  That clearly didn't happen for Roswell.)  So in this context, we're to believe that the CW insisted CAM, a white lady who hasn't delivered any real storylines for black people, is the only one who can write black storylines for Roswell?  Because why would they think black producers or writers can?

Edited July 15, 2020 by sweetandsour
oops, I meant aren't props for white characters, not non-white

[peachmangosteen]

2 hours ago, Avabelle said:

Honestly wouldn’t surprise me if that account is Carina herself in disguise.

lol 100%!

[phoenics]

On 7/15/2020 at 1:20 PM, AveMaria30 said:

(if this isn't allowed, feel free to remove and my apologies! 😓)  This is from a few days ago but has me curious about the source - because I do think she likely was fired (and the tweeter is wrong about the ITV stuff anyway) 

This is absolute BULLCRAP.  There is NO way she resigned.  She was clearly fired.  She was under even more heat after S2 with her treatment of Maria and claimed she was halting production to get it right - but we are supposed to believe that she was so aware of her horrible treatment of Maria (the only black main castmember) that she was refusing to handle BLM storylines?

BULL CRAP!

This is her doing damage control.

[Cristofle]

OMG, LOLOLOLOL. I am almost crying at that tweet. How utterly ridiculous. Yes, we all truly saw this past season how sensitive Carina is to writing woc, especially black women. Give me a break. She'd have jumped on that in a hot minute if she hadn't obviously been fired. Clearly the "credible source" is Carina herself, trying to do damage control. I almost can't think of a topic Carina handled with any sensitivity whatsoever this season. Obviously the writing for Maria was a glaring red sign. Then there was her thinking Liz the Latina scientist would have no ethics and apparently wouldn't need any. There was her off-the-wall writing of Alex and wherever she decided he was on his journey about his sexuality at any given moment. There was her seemingly thinking Max has no right to bodily autonomy. Isobel's abortion later got real weird when she implied she might want to get impregnated with Michael's sperm. I literally think Carina's only good choice was what she elected NOT to write about, AKA that Jamie Clayton and therefore possibly Charlie is transgender. 

[sweetandsour]

This excerpt is from a Vanity Fair article about Peter Lenkov, former EP with multiple CBS shows before he recently was fired.  You can see the whole article here - https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2020/07/the-fall-of-a-cbs-showrunner.  Very interesting read.  Obviously the CW numbers/scale are different, but same concepts apply.

--

Another thing you notice if you write about inappropriate behavior in Hollywood is that virtually nothing happens in isolation and that most of the unacceptable conduct is enabled by toxic traditions. Lenkov is not an unfamiliar type in the TV industry. Many of the people I spoke to described his tenure at CBS as a sort of perfect storm: a man with what they believed was a volatile personality was given a notoriously difficult, pressure-filled job, and left to manage the productions largely as he saw fit. What could go wrong?

One of Lenkov’s former colleagues is worth quoting at length on the industry’s dysfunction: “The learning curve when you jump from writer to showrunner isn’t just steep, it’s exponential. It’s crazy that our industry standard is to take a creative person with no management training, and suddenly put them in charge of a small corporation with a yearly budget of $80 million, directly managing two dozen other creative people, a hundred other physical production staff, with unmissable weekly delivery deadlines—and they don’t get much more than ‘good luck’!

“There’s no way to know if someone’s going to be a good showrunner until they’re a showrunner. And then, if the show’s a hit, there’s no incentive to change the way the showrunner does their job unless they jump the bar to behavior that will cost the company money or bad publicity.

“Running a show is like cocaine. It doesn’t change you, it just reveals who you really are. So if you’re in any way insecure, selfish, obsessive, or just generally a jerk, you’re not going to become a better person in that job. In fact, you’re going to be financially rewarded beyond your wildest dreams for having every one of your personal biases confirmed—for being the purest form of you, for better or worse.”

Edited July 22, 2020 by sweetandsour

[ellieart]

So I was looking at the WGA website for something completely unrelated, but decided to look up this show to see the year to year writer's room.  Here's the link if any of you are interested:

https://directories.wga.org/project/1153512/roswell-new-mexico

There's definitely truth to what Kamran Pasha said about the BIPOC writers leaving after the first season.  If you look, they had at least 5 on staff (Glenn Farrington, Sabir Pirzada, Miguel Nolla, Cori Uchida, and Kamran Pasha).  The next season, they were down to 4 new writers (Carolina Rivera, Danny Tolli, Jason Gavin, and Alanna Bennett, though I'm not sure why Alanna isn't listed as a writer...but it does state that the info might not be accurate).  And this coming season only has 3 (Leah Longoria, Danny Tolli, and Alanna Bennett).  Notice how this never before done, proud, "diverse" writers room has dwindled.  Even more, it's a joke to think CAM could have handled any BLM/racism/police brutality stories with one lone black writer she would have spoken over anyway.  

Accuracy or not, it's head scratching.

[Cristofle]

Yeah, that definitely would support the claim that POC fled the writing room after the first season, and it seems Carina had more free reign this season (hence the writing for Maria went from virtually non-existent to frequently offensive, and then there was Liz, which also possibly is personal due to whatever went down with Jeanine). It doesn't do any good to have POC in the writing room if you don't listen to them and if you decide you always know best. 

[AveMaria30]

Saw this on twitter and thought i'd post it here.

[AveMaria30]

 

[ellieart]

So I'm hearing rumblings that Tyler Blackburn recently admitted in the Pretty Little Wine Moms podcast that he isn't Native American at all.  Did anyone listen to this podcast and can confirm?  I didn't watch PLL, so there's no chance in hell I'm listening to a podcast about it.  But if it's true, that's a massive yikes.  

[KittenPokerCheater]

I'm surprised the former show runner wrote the season premiere.  If her storylines are being used this season, I'm going to be very sad.  I thought a bunch of characters didn't much to do last season at all.

Have the CW media folks been saying that Tyler is (or is partly) native american?

[ellieart]

4 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

Have the CW media folks been saying that Tyler is (or is partly) native american?

When he was cast as Alex, a character with half Native American ancestry, he, along with CAM and the cast, claimed he was a NA playing a NA character.  Journalists and fans took that at face value, because why would anyone think it was a lie?  I did some reading after I posted my question last night and it sounds like Tyler was told that he might be, but then found out in season 1 that he actually had no indigenous blood.  But he, CAM, and the cast continued to paint him as one.  He just took the "might be" and ran with it.  And now a large chunk of the fandom is completely writing it off as if that's not a big deal...

Edited October 14, 2020 by ellieart

[Cristofle]

18 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

I'm surprised the former show runner wrote the season premiere.  If her storylines are being used this season, I'm going to be very sad.  I thought a bunch of characters didn't much to do last season at all.

Have the CW media folks been saying that Tyler is (or is partly) native american?

IIRC, Carina was fired after the first or second episode was written. 

That's pretty yikes re: Tyler. This isn't ten years ago, it's fairly well-known now #1 that Native Americans do not appreciate claiming Native American heritage based only on DNA and #2, that you should probably verify having any Native American ancestry before saying you do. 

[ursula]

On 10/15/2020 at 6:45 AM, Cristofle said:

That's pretty yikes re: Tyler. This isn't ten years ago, it's fairly well-known now #1 that Native Americans do not appreciate claiming Native American heritage based only on DNA and #2, that you should probably verify having any Native American ancestry before saying you do. 

The offensiveness of this alone is basis for him to be written off the show. But he was explicitly hired on the basis of being Native American. That makes this a breach of contract and he should be fired. 

[shapeshifter]

9 minutes ago, ursula said:

The offensiveness of this alone is basis for him to be written off the show. But he was explicitly hired on the basis of being Native American. That makes this a breach of contract and he should be fired. 

What if (just speculating) Tyler really believed he was NA because that's what he was told from childhood by family? 

[ellieart]

On 10/16/2020 at 2:24 PM, shapeshifter said:

What if (just speculating) Tyler really believed he was NA because that's what he was told from childhood by family? 

That's a fair point and I would have thought that was a possibility if I hadn't read this:

https://adiwriting.tumblr.com/post/632079667488243712/over-the-last-few-days-there-has-been-a-lot-of

This tumblr post has the transcript of the conversation.  To me, it sounds like he went looking for Native heritage when a role hinged on him being more "ethnic."  He identified as 100% white until he was up for the role of Caleb in PLL, in his mid 20s, when he went phishing for something else to give him the edge.  I get that some families who have been here for decades might think they have indigenous ancestry (as his grandmother was told), but you best be damn sure it's true before you tell people that or use it to get jobs.  It's not as simple as claiming the heritage, you have to actively be a member of the tribe you claim in order to be considered Native of any kind.  

Tyler took it and ran with it and has profited off of a lie for years and is continuing to profit off of it even now.  He's stolen at least two jobs that could have and should have gone to actual MOC.  It's just not ok.  This is one more problematic thing for an already massively problematic show.  This diverse cast?  It's now even more predominantly and glaringly white.

Edited October 20, 2020 by ellieart

[shapeshifter]

12 minutes ago, ellieart said:

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

What if (just speculating) Tyler really believed he was NA because that's what he was told from childhood by family? 

That's a fair point and I would have thought that was a possibility if I hadn't read this:

https://adiwriting.tumblr.com/post/632079667488243712/over-the-last-few-days-there-has-been-a-lot-of

Thanks for the link to the transcript, which I understand to mean that Tyler Blackburn did think he was half Cherokee before he did the 23 And Me test some time in the middle of shooting the first season of Roswell.
After the test, Tyler learns that he might be 1/64 Cherokee (from his great-great-great-grandmother) even though it didn't show up in the 23 And Me test, not necessarily because he only inherited a tiny part of that, but likely because there are so few Cherokees included in the 23 And Me gene pool.
But, anyway, a person who is 1/64 something could have inherited more or less than 1/64 of the genes from that ancestor, just like any kids from the same parents can have different coloring, heights, etc.

Quote

...This transcript starts at 1:03:27 of the audio podcast.

Tyler Blackburn (TB): No actually I didn’t get the role at first [of Caleb] because they were like ‘we really think he needs to be like eth— like really ethnic. We need some ethnic diversity.’ 
Lesley: Oh, okay
TB: Um, and I was like 
Nia: But what are you? 
Holly: And you’re not?
Lesley: But you’re like… Hello part Indian. 
TB: Well…
Lesley: I mean part Native American I mean. 
TB: (chuckles) No, I’m actually not. I’m actually not, I found out. 
Holly: What?! Yes you — No we did talked about this— 
Lesley: What?!
TB: We can talk about this, we can talk about this.
Lesley: I thought you were?
Holly: We talked about this on set… Well off set. 
TB: Do you know when I found out that I wasn’t is when I, when I got Roswell. My character was also supposed to be Native American. 
Holly: Right.
TB: And I was like — ½ Native American —  and I was like, great! Like, I mean, because it, it, the pool is like, so small. 
Holly: Right. 
TB: You know and I was like this is great, you know? Um (smiling) I’m shooting season… I’m shooting season 1 of the show and I do a 23 & Me 
Holly: Right
TB: And I have literally not even 0.1% Native American. 
Holly: That can’t be possible.
Nia: No, no, no, no, 
TB: Swear
Nia: But let me explain to you how that works that’s not right — 
Holly: Nia has some things to tell you 
Nia: The information, I know these things I mean I have every —  
TB: Ok, tell me 
Nia: — nationality in me. 23 & me is pulling from… if you do 23 & me and then do…what’s the other one? 
Holly and Lesley: Ancestry, Ancestry.com 
TB: Yeah 
Nia: They’ll come up different. And the reason they’ll come up different from each other is because they’re pulling from the people they already have in their database. 
Holly: Right 
Nia: So if there’s not very many, you know, Native American people doing 23 & me 
Holly: which there isn’t 
Nia: You’re not gonna — It’s not gonna show up 
TB: Ok, so this is what happened, going back. They said, you know, thank you so much for the read. And I really thought I was gonna get it. Cause, Gayle, Gayle Pillsbury, I had never even read for her before and I went in and auditioned and her response was literally everything you’d want in an audition. She like lost her fucking mind. 
Moms: (laughing). I love it. 
TB: And was like ‘Where did you come from?’ you know that sort of thing, 
Lesley: Wow
TB: and like I’m a terrible auditioner and I get so unbelievably nervous. So…
Holly: We all do. 
TB: So for that to be the response, for that response… I was like ‘oh my gosh.’ And you leave an audition and you’re like ‘I booked it, I booked it’ you know what I mean? 
Moms: (laughing) Yeah 
TB: Even though it’s not up to her, you know, but anyway…but then they told me ‘thank you so much for the read, it was so good, but we want more ethnic diversity.’ They came back, I don’t know, maybe three weeks later and they were like, ‘what is your background?’ 
Holly: Who the fuck (Video cuts out)
TB: and I was like ‘I don’t even know?’ I call my, my dad, he tells me ‘I don’t, I don’t even know.’ He’s like, call grandma. 
Holly: Right
TB: I call grandma and she tells me her side. And then my dad’s dad, passed away before I was born. I don’t know his side of the family at all. 
Holly: Right. 
TB: And, uh, so my grandmother talks to me about his side of the family and says, you know, it was, it was, uh, Harold, was my, my grandfather’s name, Harold’s great grandmother was Cherokee, Indian. 
Nia (cheers) 
Lesley (Laughs)
Holly: Yup. Tyler, we literally —
TB: And I was like ‘Really??!’ I was like ‘This is good!!’ (claps hands) (Video Cut) 
TB: So then I told, I told, casting, you know, I’m Native American. And so they thought that was enough to cast me, as, you know, ethnically ambiguous or whatever. 
Lesley: That’s awesome. 

 

[ellieart]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Thanks for the link to the transcript, which I understand to mean that Tyler Blackburn did think he was half Cherokee before he did the 23 And Me test some time in the middle of shooting the first season of Roswell.
After the test, Tyler learns that he might be 1/64 Cherokee (from his great-great-great-grandmother) even though it didn't show up in the 23 And Me test, not necessarily because he only inherited a tiny part of that, but likely because there are so few Cherokees included in the 23 And Me gene pool.
But, anyway, a person who is 1/64 something could have inherited more or less than 1/64 of the genes from that ancestor, just like any kids from the same parents can have different coloring, heights, etc.

 

Even if he truly and honestly thought he was even partially Native American just based on what his grandmother told him, unless he is a part of the tribe he claims and an active part of the community, traditions, etc; he is NOT in any way, Native American.  If he found out he had a large chunk of Native ancestry in him, he would have to pursue that and put in the work to become a member.  He did none of that and is none of that, therefore all he's been doing is appropriating a culture of which he is not a part of.  Also...I'm super bothered with how he casually mentioned how small the pool was when he was talking about being half Native.  That's so tasteless since he's actively STILL stealing jobs away from that small pool of actors who rightfully deserve the roles.

*Full disclosure-I work in child welfare and we have worked closely with members of various Native American tribes due to ICWA (Indian Child Welfare Act).  I won't say all (but I'm definitely confident in saying all) would say exactly what I said above.  Tyler is without a doubt, white, and always has been.*

But it is definitely interesting to see how you interpreted the transcript, so thank you for that!

[shapeshifter]

58 minutes ago, ellieart said:

Even if he truly and honestly thought he was even partially Native American just based on what his grandmother told him, unless he is a part of the tribe he claims and an active part of the community, traditions, etc; he is NOT in any way, Native American.  If he found out he had a large chunk of Native ancestry in him, he would have to pursue that and put in the work to become a member.  He did none of that and is none of that, therefore all he's been doing is appropriating a culture of which he is not a part of.  Also...I'm super bothered with how he casually mentioned how small the pool was when he was talking about being half Native.  That's so tasteless since he's actively STILL stealing jobs away from that small pool of actors who rightfully deserve the roles.

*Full disclosure-I work in child welfare and we have worked closely with members of various Native American tribes due to ICWA (Indian Child Welfare Act).  I won't say all (but I'm definitely confident in saying all) would say exactly what I said above.  Tyler is without a doubt, white, and always has been.*

But it is definitely interesting to see how you interpreted the transcript, so thank you for that!

And thank you for adding the bits about the importance of practice and culture to NA identity, which I did not feel qualified to mention. 🙂
Given that in the US people often have their identities determined by others based upon their physical appearance, accent, or even neighborhood, I don't blame Tyler for not knowing better before now, especially since I doubt Burbank is a place where the particulars of tribal identity are common knowledge. Nevertheless, as a celebrity, he's going to quickly learn.

[ursula]

20 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

TB: And, uh, so my grandmother talks to me about his side of the family and says, you know, it was, it was, uh, Harold, was my, my grandfather’s name, Harold’s great grandmother was Cherokee, Indian. 

 

 

18 hours ago, ellieart said:

I'm super bothered with how he casually mentioned how small the pool was when he was talking about being half Native.  That's so tasteless since he's actively STILL stealing jobs away from that small pool of actors who rightfully deserve the roles.

 

A White dude claiming indigenous heritage, while making no attempt to connect to that heritage but weaponizing it to colonize spaces reserved for indigenous people in an industry that he’s already privileged in... sounds just about White.
 

Can the show fire this guy already? It would be great if he just got blackballed permanently but I’m not holding my breath.

[Cristofle]

I mean...saying "I heard this anecdote from a family member" won't even get you into the Daughters of the American Revolution, lol. They make you provide hard proof you had an ancestor who fought in the Revolutionary War. There has been an increasing amount of awareness in more recent years that Native Americans do not consider you part of the Native American community if you are not a member of a tribe. Seeing signs of ancestry in 23andme does not cut it and if you are not a member of a tribe, you should not appropriate their culture or take roles intended for Native Americans when already, a lot of Native actors do not have the easiest time finding work and are often portrayed by non-Native actors. I am nothing approaching an expert on Native culture. My own 23andme results are just about the whitest thing imaginable. But I still think the importance of tribal membership is well known enough at this point. I've always liked Tyler, I loved him in PLL, but this is just...really, really, really not good. 

[Shorty186]

His casting on PLL was almost 10 years ago, but Casting offices now are very strict when casting Native American roles. I used to work for an agent and one of her clients was up for a Native American role and when they seriously wanted to book her, they wanted to know her tribe and percentage of blood and my boss got super mad because it's apparently very offensive and intrusive to ask that (re: percentage of blood) but casting basically said they needed to have concrete proof. 

I think it's very odd that Tyler didn't know his own ancestry. And neither did his dad, that they needed to go back to grandma. I mean, even in grade school I remember having to do a family tree. I always assumed he was something other than white, but the fact that he didn't ask until he was in his twenties makes it pretty obvious that *he* thought he was white.

 

[Avabelle]

I’m surprised this hasn’t been on any outlets like deadline etc. Obviously execs and the “industry” aren’t too concerned..