S13.E21: Beat The Devil

[belbar]

19 minutes ago, devlin said:

Are people seriously worried that dean is going to be annoyed with sam that he allowed luci to follow him to the camp after he brought sam back to life.

I don't think so and frankly there's no reason either IMO.

Spoiler

What I think is that they're going to use this as a factor in whatever plot leads Dean to the new character whoever it is.

Edited May 5, 2018 by belbar

[AwesomO4000]

Oops crap... that might be considered a spoiler, so you might want to spoiler tag that last bit.

I'll just say without quoting it that that is mainly what I'm worried about.

Edited May 5, 2018 by AwesomO4000
So I wouldn't be quoting the potential spoiler anymore.

[belbar]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

  But the expression on Dean's face looked more "what the hell did you do", rather than "oh shit, how did he get here".  And Sam's expression was full of guilt which he has no reason to feel.  I think I'm just ready for both Sam and Dean to snap out of their funk.  It's basically lasted all season for both of them, with a few upbeat moments along the way. 

I think that Dean's expression was actually shock at seeing Sam alive. And when Lucifer showed up after him it was more like a "what the hell?". but in his state of mind logic calls more for worry than anger. I guess it was more in the line "and now what". He's been dreading that something awful was going to happen to his brother, and few hours later he lost him. No way he's going to be anything but first relieved and them probably scared to death again. IMO

But yes I agree that their moods this season have been off.

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Oops crap... that might be considered a spoiler, so you might want to spoiler tag that last bit.

I'll just say without quoting it that that is mainly what I'm worried about.

Oops sorry. I don't even know how to do that.

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, belbar said:

Oops sorry. I don't even know how to do that.

Hit the edit button - the little pencil at the bottom of your post - then use your cursor to highlight that part then hit the icon that looks like a lightening bolt at the top of the post. that'll do it!

[belbar]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not sure how this would translate to whatever Dean's going to do, but I guess we'll see. 

I hope this is not considered as an spoiler because is just pure speculation, but I think that it'll como to be related to his mood, the state of mind that could lead him to it.

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Hit the edit button - the little pencil at the bottom of your post - then use your cursor to highlight that part then hit the icon that looks like a lightening bolt at the top of the post. that'll do it!

Thanks Awesom (for the advice and directions), I just did it. I hope it works.

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, belbar said:

I hope this is not considered as an spoiler because is just pure speculation, but I think that it'll como to be related to his mood, the state of mind that could lead him to it.

I don't think this is much of a spoiler, so I think you're fine.  Dean's desperation has been pretty obvious all season.  We just don't know what the catalyst might be, since seemingly, he should be feeling pretty good right now.  Sam's alive, they've found Mary and Jack...things could be a hell of a lot worse.  Yes, they need to deal with Lucifer, but still...there's a lot to feel good about, at least in the short term.  I'm sure the other shoe will drop sooner rather than later.

[belbar]

53 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Dean's desperation has been pretty obvious all season.  We just don't know what the catalyst might be, since seemingly, he should be feeling pretty good right now.  Sam's alive, they've found Mary and Jack...things could be a hell of a lot worse.  Yes, they need to deal with Lucifer, but still...there's a lot to feel good about, at least in the short term.  I'm sure the other shoe will drop sooner rather than later.

If this had been discussed prior to the episode I'd have said that the main reason for whatever happens would be the need of saving his mother and Jack. But right now, after their conversation in the last scene of last episode about a new apocalypse and the fact that what he feared the most came to happen (his brother death and Lucifer presence added to it) I don't think that he's happy at all right now.

Yes they found Mary and Jack, but again I think  he's terrified of the possibility of a repetition of the last Apocalypse, meaning losing Sam and adding his mother to the mix is not helping either

Edited May 5, 2018 by belbar

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, belbar said:

If this would has been discussed prior to the episode I'd have said that the main reason for whatever happens would be the need of saving his mother and Jack. But right now, after their conversation in the last scene of last episode about a new apocalypse and the fact that what he feared the most came to happen (his brother death and Lucifer presence added to it) I don't think that he's happy at all right now.

I'm not sure about this.  I don't think this apocalypse would be anything like the last.  At least as far as their personal stake in it.  I think they just know that it's on them again to try to avert it.  There's really been no indication that either Sam or Dean would be needed as vessels like the last time.  Either way, it sucks to be them.

[belbar]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not sure about this.  I don't think this apocalypse would be anything like the last.  At least as far as their personal stake in it.  I think they just know that it's on them again to try to avert it.  There's really been no indication that either Sam or Dean would be needed as vessels like the last time.  Either way, it sucks to be them.

You're totally right. Their personal stake doesn't exist. No need for them as vessels. That story ran its course for sure. But all seems to indicate that there'll be a new confrontation of some kind. Clearly AU  Michael will be coming to our world. Jack, Mary, Lucifer and them will be involved somehow.

Just to be sure.

Spoiler

Few weeks ago, with all the speculation about the possibility of Dean Michael again and Lucifer not in the middle of everything the expectations were different, but now to be honest I'm not so sure what will happen other than the repetition of the fight. Since I'm not certain that many would care if it happened between AU Michael and Lucifer in AU world, it's probably going to come to Jack trying to stop AU Michael from coming to destroy our world. Once that happens all of them will be involved. Because of Mom, Jack, the world, Charlie and so on, and you can order it any way you want. Wonder daddy Lucifer will get involved too because now he wants to stablish a relationship with his son. Rowena apparently has decided to join the team. And there you have all the characters involved in it. How Dean will become the new character is a mistery now IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

52 minutes ago, devlin said:

Are people seriously worried that dean is going to be annoyed with sam that he allowed luci to follow him to the camp after he brought sam back to life.

I don't think so, unless the writers really are out to scuttle Dean's character. There is no reason for it at all, just like there is no reason for Sam to be mad that [Dean] left his body behind. 

The only bad outcome I can see is if they would have Sam vouch for Luci (to Jack) in any sort of sincere way, or try to sell his potential redemption. Because then I'd have to agree with those who think the writers set Sam up to fail. 

[Bergamot]

4 hours ago, FlickChick said:

The way they wrote EVERYONE in this episode was fucking stupid. I am officially embarrassed to admit to anyone that I watch this show in its current stupidity.

Ha, I feel you! But as kind of a side note, do you know who I liked in this episode? The civilians of the week, Floyd and Maggie! I liked them from the moment we met them, with Floyd yelling at Maggie to run away as he fought off a vampire, and Maggie ignoring him and instead jumping onto vampire's back to try to stop him. I liked Floyd trying to be brave as they re-entered the tunnel, saying "Second time is the charm!", and then almost immediately tripping and scaring Maggie to death. I liked the way that they kept trying to watch out for each other, and I liked that Floyd was trying to fight off vampires with a baseball bat and that Maggie was using what looked like a small pickax. (I mean, come on, couldn't the guys have lent them a gun or maybe a machete?)

I liked that after Floyd is killed, we see that Maggie has picked up the baseball bat and is carrying it as her weapon. And I especially liked that she was kind enough to try to tell Dean she was sorry about his friend, but wise enough to realize that it was better to leave him be. On the whole I think she was pretty great.

You know, when I think of some of the interesting stories that could be told about the people in this alternate world, it kind of makes me wish that Dean and Sam would get stuck there with them instead of going back to their own world. Maybe they could stay and Mary and Jack could go back!

[SueB]

i think Dean is thrilled with Sam’s return and reasonably concerned Lucifer is there.  Seems perfectly normal to me.  

[belbar]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The only bad outcome I can see is if they would have Sam vouch for Luci (to Jack) in any sort of sincere way, or try to sell his potential redemption. Because then I'd have to agree with those who think the writers set Sam up to fail.

I found a little weird Sam's expression when he arrived to the camp. He looked ashamed and there was no reason for it. But then again nothing about Sam's behaviour has made much sense lately and his terror/fear for Lucifer after having him at home and playing Dr Phil with him last year felt like fake and a little overacted on Jared's part, but he's been told to always play straight the script so who knows where it comes from.

[bearcatfan]

1 hour ago, devlin said:

Are people seriously worried that dean is going to be annoyed with sam that he allowed luci to follow him to the camp after he brought sam back to life.

If Dean is annoyed it would be the most out of character reaction ever for Dean. I would think that one of the reasons Sam agreed with Lucifer’s terms is knowing how much Dean likely blames himself for Sam’s death. Seriously, Sam could have an aneurysm burst and Dean would find a way to blame himself. 

[belbar]

Just now, bearcatfan said:

If Dean is annoyed it would be the most out of character reaction ever for Dean. I would think that one of the reasons Sam agreed with Lucifer’s terms is knowing how much Dean likely blames himself for Sam’s death. Seriously, Sam could have an aneurysm burst and Dean would find a way to blame himself.

100% agree.

[MysteryGuest]

5 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

If Dean is annoyed it would be the most out of character reaction ever for Dean.

This was basically my point.  The expression on his face didn't match up to the emotions I thought he'd be feeling.  Seeing Lucifer would be totally secondary to the fact that Sam was still alive.  Now maybe he's wondering if Sam is really Sam, considering he's hanging with Lucifer, so who knows.  Two more episodes and it will all make sense...

[belbar]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

This was basically my point.  The expression on his face didn't match up to the emotions I thought he'd be feeling.  Seeing Lucifer would be totally secondary to the fact that Sam was still alive.  Now maybe he's wondering if Sam is really Sam, considering he's hanging with Lucifer, so who knows.  Two more episodes and it will all make sense...

I think is pure terror. I know Apocalypse season 5 is over and in the past. But Dean clearly said that last time they're in that position Sam ended up fighting with Lucifer, dead and in hell. And here we are facing a new apocalypse, Sam dies and Lucifer shows up. What would you think?

If you're implying about the possibility of a redo of soulless Sam, I don't think that he's gone that far. Right now it must be the inminent danger. The other shoe about to drop.

[MysteryGuest]

Yeah, I'll get over it.  It was just that last scene that they held a bit too long for dramatic reasons.  It will all be forgotten next episode, based on the short preview we were shown.  

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, devlin said:

Are people seriously worried that dean is going to be annoyed with sam that he allowed luci to follow him to the camp after he brought sam back to life.

I thought most are concerned that Dean will feel guilty for leaving Sam there which lead to him being  resurrected by Lucifer.

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, belbar said:

I think is pure terror. I know Apocalypse season 5 is over and in the past. But Dean clearly said that last time they're in that position Sam ended up fighting with Lucifer, dead and in hell. And here we are facing a new apocalypse, Sam dies and Lucifer shows up. What would you think?

If you're implying about the possibility of a redo of soulless Sam, I don't think that he's gone that far. Right now it must be the inminent danger. The other shoe about to drop.

Yes.  They have totally set up Dean as reliving his worst fear of losing Sam in the Apocalypse by losing Mary in the same way and now he loses Sam in the Apocalypse world and for crying out loud here's Lucifer again which just means. Ore trouble and someone else dying further down the road.  

It was spelled out by Dean last week and Mary did go through an interdimensional rift with Lucifer right before he had his major meltdown and began unraveling... so yes... very clearly the issue.

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, belbar said:

You're totally right. Their personal stake doesn't exist. No need for them as vessels. That story ran its course for sure. But all seems to indicate that there'll be a new confrontation of some kind. Clearly AU  Michael will be coming to our world. Jack, Mary, Lucifer and them will be involved somehow.

Just to be sure.

  Hide contents

Few weeks ago, with all the speculation about the possibility of Dean Michael again and Lucifer not in the middle of everything the expectations were different, but now to be honest I'm not so sure what will happen other than the repetition of the fight. Since I'm not certain that many would care if it happened between AU Michael and Lucifer in AU world, it's probably going to come to Jack trying to stop AU Michael from coming to destroy our world. Once that happens all of them will be involved. Because of Mom, Jack, the world, Charlie and so on, and you can order it any way you want. Wonder daddy Lucifer will get involved too because now he wants to stablish a relationship with his son. Rowena apparently has decided to join the team. And there you have all the characters involved in it. How Dean will become the new character is a mistery now IMO.

Still going to be Dean!Michael. He is at full power.  Gabriel is impotent.  Tbeybwasted a lot of time making sure that we knew that.  Lucifer had to kill a bunch of AU Michael's boys ,to ger the juice to resurrect Sam.  He is,running on batteries and is no match for AU Michael 

Jack is unstable.  I do not thinking meeting dad is going to stabilize him.  His humanity is a liability combined with all of that power.  This is why nephilum have been routinely killed per Chucj's orders. They were too volatile.  Jack is an arch-nephilum.  If he loses it... very very bad.  The reason we keep seeing Lucifer get stronger when he gets mad is because it is a hint about Jack.  We also saw Jack get corrupted when he used too much power at once to rasise the shadeen.  There is no guarantee he is the savior they are looking for.

In fact in AT Billie pretty much indicates that Dean will be needed.  So my money is on him and Dean!Michael.  

4 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not sure about this.  I don't think this apocalypse would be anything like the last.  At least as far as their personal stake in it.  I think they just know that it's on them again to try to avert it.  There's really been no indication that either Sam or Dean would be needed as vessels like the last time.  Either way, it sucks to be them.

Well there was the hint of Dean being chosen as the perfect vessel in the Thing.  That is the kind of subtextual hint they love to do.

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, SueB said:

I'll bet a Diet Coke that this was a director or cast gag added in.  Berens owned up to the innuendo regarding archangel grace "performance" but said the cast & crew made the most of it.

He threw in some French beaver slang in girls girls girls I thinknor something like that...

I really loved his scripts before Dabb took over.

I think Carver must have done more with editing or something.

[Castiels Cat]

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe Dean had PTSD from the last time he had an angel fix a dead/dying Sam. Imagine Sam's reaction if Dean had made a deal with Lucifer to bring him back. Just imagine.

I'm only partly kidding.

Huh... maybe he is sad because he knows he already blew his one chance to hurt himself with the Mark of Cain on a regular angel resurrection  lby Gadreel and he should have saved it for one of those Oops! Sam was resurrected by the Prince of Lies moments.

[Bergamot]

17 hours ago, Myrelle said:

As I said, I don't think that Dean is going to be shocked or surprised by anything bad that comes down the pipe  because I think he is again in that head space he was in when he said those four little words of "Not in my experience." to Cas after Cas had raised him from Hell and tried to assure him that Good things DO happen.

This is a good comparison! It's like he is just waiting for their doom to come crashing down.

17 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Ditto to all of this and yes, he was so shut off after Sam's death, but seeing Mary's face just broke him.

The sad thing is that for a moment I thought he might be able to seek comfort from his mother, but it didn't happen. When he announces to Mary that he is going back for Sam's body, you can see from the expression in his eyes that he is not in any better shape than he was before they found her.

I kind of wish that when Dean and the others were walking along after they leave the tunnels, right after Sam's death, that they had not inserted those little flashbacks showing that Dean is thinking about and reliving Sam's death.  Did the writer and/or director think that we were going to be wondering what was inside Dean's head at that point, or asking why he had that look in his eyes, or questioning why he would not speak to Maggie, unless we had that helpful hint? They should have just trusted Jensen; he was perfectly capable of conveying what Dean was seeing in his mind's eye without the aid of flashbacks.

11 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

The way everyone looked at him like he'd done some horrible thing annoyed me. 

Watched again to look for this, but did not see it. Not a single person "looked at Sam like he'd done some horrible thing". Everyone looked at Sam when he appeared with shock and amazement, and then as Lucifer appeared, everyone looked at Lucifer with shock and horror. The episode ended with everyone staring at Lucifer. 

Edited May 5, 2018 by Bergamot

[mertensia]

I thought this was pretty good.

I liked Cas opining that maybe they need Gabriel up in Heaven because the old way didn't work.

Say, Lucifer, did Jack look happy to see you? No? Perhaps you could reflect on what that says about you.

Loved that they pointed out that when the population gets too low... The monsters get hungry. And lose their cunning, self-control and possibly some intelligence.

[Pondlass1]

But wouldn't Luci have found his own way there anyway?  He could've gone in any direction when he went through the rift but he found Sam in the tunnel right away.  

It's all so stupid anyway.  They missed the boat with this AU they're giving us.  I know it's probably cheap to film in the woods and filter the camera but couldn't they have come up with a more interesting  story than this TWD copycat? I  was hoping for  characters from early seasons showing up and they're different because of circumstance.  It would've made for some interesting character reactions and I'm sure these actors always want gigs.  OK, we got Charlie, but she's still a 1-dimensional Mary Sue. What about all the others the brothers have met during the past 13 yrs?  Where are they? Does AU Ash exist? Maybe a new hairstyle - party at the front, business at the back?

[belbar]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

Does AU Ash exist? Maybe a new hairstyle - party at the front, business at the back?

LOL

[MysteryGuest]

23 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

And the instagram picture of him in the suit (pant, pant) is just enigmatic enough to go in any disturbing direction.

Taking to the spoilers thread...

[Miles]

So I'm confused. Gabriel has his wings. I know he's low on grace, but teleporting a few miles shouldn't be very strenuous. So what gives? Why couldn't they have just teleported where they needed to go and not have dealt with those Vampires in the first place?

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, Miles said:

So I'm confused. Gabriel has his wings. I know he's low on grace, but teleporting a few miles shouldn't be very strenuous. So what gives? Why couldn't they have just teleported where they needed to go and not have dealt with those Vampires in the first place?

PLOTONIUM. All a function of Plotonium.

 They wanted Sam isolated and alone so he's killed and Lucifer saves him so he can get to  Jack. Then lift from Wendigo to appeal to nostalgia. Everything else filled in those edges. IMO YMMV

Edited May 5, 2018 by catrox14

[enaiowen]

On 5/3/2018 at 9:02 PM, MysteryGuest said:

And what was the purpose of the glow sticks?  Other than making them easier targets for the monsters?

I presume to help keep track of each other in the dark. Especially if they loose their light source. (I'm reminded of the passage through the Lincoln Tunnel in "The Stand" *shudder*.)

And if you have to shoot something under those conditions you're going to want to take precautions to make sure you don't accidentally hit one of your own.

Edited May 6, 2018 by enaiowen

[Icarus]

4 hours ago, enaiowen said:

On 5/4/2018 at 3:02 AM, MysteryGuest said:

And what was the purpose of the glow sticks?  Other than making them easier targets for the monsters?

I presume to help keep track of each other in the dark. Especially if they loose their light source. (I'm reminded of the passage through the Lincoln Tunnel in "The Stand" *shudder*.)

And if you have to shoot something under those conditions you're going to want to take precautions to make sure you don't accidentally hit one of your own.

Apparently, according to "Fangasm" it was to help with the lighting in the tunnel - they couldn't add lighting as there obviously should not be any lights in the tunnel so it was purely for a filming purpose! 

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/5/2018 at 4:08 PM, Miles said:

So I'm confused. Gabriel has his wings. I know he's low on grace, but teleporting a few miles shouldn't be very strenuous. So what gives? Why couldn't they have just teleported where they needed to go and not have dealt with those Vampires in the first place?

The bar stuff may have been all magic.  Like Crowley he is skilled in magical arts for his,Trickster persona.  Loki looks like he is,tekeporting but it is holograms and magic.  The limp rift business basically tells us he is zip for grace.  So my guess is that he could not teleport.

[SueB]

On 5/5/2018 at 4:08 PM, Miles said:

So I'm confused. Gabriel has his wings. I know he's low on grace, but teleporting a few miles shouldn't be very strenuous. So what gives? Why couldn't they have just teleported where they needed to go and not have dealt with those Vampires in the first place?

Lucifer also couldn't teleport when low on grace.  But Luci has been building up his grace for months.  OTOH, he lost a shit-ton to the dripping bowl.  So, Gabriel having insufficient grace makes sense, but I'm not sure Luci transported to Sam -- maybe short hops?  

[Bobcatkitten]

I rewatched the tunnel scene with no distractions. 

 

Plot aside, it was cinematically stunning. Dark with just enough lighting to catch faces, shadows, and so quiet. No music until ultimate death scene.

Jared and Jensen sold it with their looks and screams.

 

But where the heck were Gabriel and Cas during that fight? And really Lucifer can bleed grace for hours and still have enough to hold back the vamps and resurrect Sam from the DEAD? But Gabriel's grace wasn't strong enough to open the rift, he didn't fight and couldn't heal Sam. But he broke that warding no problem. 

[Pondlass1]

2 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

And really Lucifer can bleed grace for hours and still have enough to hold back the vamps and resurrect Sam from the DEAD? But Gabriel's grace wasn't strong enough to open the rift, he didn't fight and couldn't heal Sam. But he broke that warding no problem. 

Should be called what it truly is - PLOT GRACE.  

I had no complaints about lighting or whatever in the tunnel.  My complaints lie with the editing department in term of the tunnel scenes.

[belbar]

3 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I had no complaints about lighting or whatever in the tunnel.  My complaints lie with the editing department in term of the tunnel scenes.

Editing has been terrible the last two seasons.  There have been real good performances totally wasted because of it. It's a shame. And weird too because aren't these people the same that do the vimeo promotional clips? those are great. I don't know what the deal is.

[Miles]

6 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

And really Lucifer can bleed grace for hours and still have enough to hold back the vamps and resurrect Sam from the DEAD?

They actually explained that. Luci drained some of Micheals angels on the way.

[gonzosgirrl]

30 minutes ago, Miles said:

They actually explained that. Luci drained some of Micheals angels on the way.

But AU!Michael took one little vial before Luci leapt through the rift and it practically made him human. They were draining him for hours and 'eating' a few au!angels gave him enough power and to raise the dead? Not to mention making his way through the vamps and whatever else in the first place? I call shenanigans.

[belbar]

Maybe I'm being a little picky here but, nobody remebers when Cas lost his grace? With borrowed grace he wasn't at full power and could not recharge (he needed his original grace for the recharge). Apparently he was "burning" the borrowed grace at an alarming speed and getting weaker. And he was an angel borrowing another angel grace. This was a big part of his arc in season 9. Here we have an archangel (stuff of a primordial creation according to Chuck) but with some apparently small quantities of loaned grace (from a low angel) he was good to go. And after some RR in Heaven is good enough to go back in full power. Then he's AGAIN drained of a massive amount of grace (man that was a lot) but hey with a couple of snacks in low calorie/low carb angels he is great again. Nobody thinks that's another WTH moment?

Edited May 7, 2018 by belbar

[FlickChick]

8 minutes ago, belbar said:

Maybe I'm being a little picky here but, nobody remebers when Cas lost his grace? With borrowed grace he wasn't at full power and could not recharge (he needed his original grace for the recharge). Apparently he was "burning" the borrowed grace at an alarming speed and getting weaker. And he was an angel borrowing another angel grace. This was a big part of his arc in season 9. Here we have an archangel (stuff of a primordial creation according to Chuck) but with some loaned apparently small quantities of grace (from a low angel) he was good to go. And after some RR in Heaven is good enough to go back in full power. Then he's AGAIN drained of a massive amount of grace (man that was a lot) but hey with a couple of snacks in low calorie/low carb angels he is great again. Nobody thinks that's another WTH moment?

I think a lot of us think that but unfortunately, we know that these hack writers put whatever they want in a script - to hell with canon or common sense or characteristics. It is almost as if we've come to expect it to happen. And isn't that a crying shame?

[belbar]

11 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

And isn't that a crying shame?

That it is. It reminds me of the frog in the boiling water happily oblivious. I'm starting to think that we're the frog.

[sarthaz]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

I think a lot of us think that but unfortunately, we know that these hack writers put whatever they want in a script - to hell with canon or common sense or characteristics. It is almost as if we've come to expect it to happen. And isn't that a crying shame?

Fanwanking is basically my new full-time job. On this one, I've decided that archangels regenerate grace differently from other angels, and I've also decided that anything that happened to Cas isn't really applicable, because God rebuilt him with special rules each time.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, belbar said:

Maybe I'm being a little picky here but, nobody remebers when Cas lost his grace? With borrowed grace he wasn't at full power and could not recharge (he needed his original grace for the recharge). Apparently he was "burning" the borrowed grace at an alarming speed and getting weaker. And he was an angel borrowing another angel grace. This was a big part of his arc in season 9. Here we have an archangel (stuff of a primordial creation according to Chuck) but with some apparently small quantities of loaned grace (from a low angel) he was good to go. And after some RR in Heaven is good enough to go back in full power. Then he's AGAIN drained of a massive amount of grace (man that was a lot) but hey with a couple of snacks in low calorie/low carb angels he is great again. Nobody thinks that's another WTH moment?

 

You'e not wrong - the rules of "grace" have been really managled this year. And they could have EASILY given us some sense of Castiel's powers and limitations but flat out fail to do so. 

As I understand it, by the end of this episode:
- Gabriel is basically nearly zero, enough to take out warding, not enough to blow away vampires, fuel a rift opening, or resurrect anyone.
- Cas is a regular angel, he could take out maybe ONE vampire at a time but the time he took out a diner-full was when he was storing 'souls' for his heavenly battle, he hasn't been that powerful since.  They've established that Cas' grace waxes and wanes with Heaven being open or shut to him.  He couldn't heal Dean in S4 when he was cut-off from doing so and Naomi 'closed' Heaven to him.
- Lucifer likely snacked on Heaven's Angels a bit at a time until they realized he couldn't bring back their wings.  When Aneal walked out of him, I suspect his supply dried up.  But he has also been back from the AU for quite some time, so I think he was pretty powerful when he was captured by Gabriel and Rowena.  I think the ONLY way he was taken down was the use of magic by Rowena -- which has been established as being able to effect the angels. Then Lucifer lost a shit-ton (I'd warrant he was back to having just come back from the AU-level).  Rowena angered him enough to overcome her cuffs (which is consistent) and she blasted him through the rift (which was already open).  Then Lucifer "ate" a half dozen regular AU angels.  Apparently that was enough to give him resurrection powers.  THAT (IMO) is the big stretch.  But, that's the leap they want us to take.

We won't know how much power he really has until he has to use his power next episode.  But I bet Jack could take him right now.  And I bet Lucifer will lie about what he can do.  He expended a great deal IMO to raise Sam back up because Sam is the perfect gift to offer to get to Jack.  I think he'll hide his weakness for a while and try to bluster his way through.  

Edited May 7, 2018 by SueB

[Katy M]

24 minutes ago, SueB said:

And they could have EASILY given us some sense of Castiel's powers and limitations but flat out fail to do so. 

Don't be ridiculous. Then they couldn't change from week to week. I mean scene to scene.

[belbar]

22 hours ago, SueB said:

You'e not wrong - the rules of "grace" have been really managled this year.

I think that they've managled more than grace this year. They've sent canon out the window in a lot of things and that, to me, is frustrating to no end. There're no rules any more. We're constantly at the whim of the writer of the week. There's no leadership in the ship and it shows. IMO.

 

22 hours ago, SueB said:

Then Lucifer "ate" a half dozen regular AU angels.  Apparently that was enough to give him resurrection powers.  THAT (IMO) is the big stretch.  But, that's the leap they want us to take.

I'm afraid the leap is way bigger than that. YMMV.

Edited May 8, 2018 by belbar

[SueB]

28 minutes ago, belbar said:

I think that they've managled more than grace this year. They've sent cannon out the window in a lot of things and that, to me, is frustrating to no end. There're no rules any more. We're constantly at the whim of the writer of the week. There's no leadership in the ship and it shows. IMO.

 

I'm afraid the leap is way bigger than that. YMMV.

You're right MMV.  I think the leadership is very evident and they have a thought-out plan.  I suspect they've had to make some shifts during the season, and IA they've played fast and loose with some of the lore, but I don't think the stories are "whims".  Personally, lore consistency is a big deal to me.  Robbie Thompson used to be really good about it.  I think Yockey pays attention too.  I put Bobo Berens in that list until this episode, this episode he didn't do as well as he has in the past when it comes to the lore.  I think Robert Singer doesn't give a shit about lore.  I think Dabb cares but he has some strategic plot in mind and lets lore morph to fit the overarching "Point A to Point B".  

This episode:
1) Got our heroes in the AU and together with Jack and Mary
2) Got Lucifer in the AU and meeting up with Jack
3) Rowena trying to keep the rift open

I think that's what Dabb wanted to accomplish.  And I think the character moments (which Singer has said is what he cares about the most) were pretty outstanding.  I think Berens delivered a tense hour of television with some awesome action, good character moments, and put all the pieces in place for the next two episodes.  

Edited May 8, 2018 by SueB

[Etoile]

This episode was the most illogical piece of writing I have ever seen and I have sat through some very bad written episodes for the sake of this show. From the tonal shift from comedy to drama that instead of complementing the seriousness of the situation, undercut it in a silly and jouvenile way, to the lack of care for any plot point, be it the fight in fake Moria or Sam's death or how Lucifer got what he wanted, to the direction (I can't keep out of my eyes the ridiculous sight of Mary walking five feet from Dean without seeing him so she can be surprised!) everything was so badly done I cringed through most of it. Sure Jensen Ackles can deliver the same emotions over and over always finding a new way of doing it (this time it was by going mute) and that remains a pleasure to see, but it is not enough to raise this episode. 

Sure the episode accomplished the goal of putting all the characters in the AU so they can go on with finally, maybe deal with one of the thousand arcs they have left hanging, but frankly IMO the execution was very lacking.

[Lemuria]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Don't be ridiculous. Then they couldn't change from week to week. I mean scene to scene.

Don't you mean, minute to minute? :)

[Res]

9 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Don't you mean, minute to minute? :)

No, no, it's second to second! ;-)