S13.E21: Beat The Devil

[SueB]

That was fanf*ckingtastic. 

Disclaimer: After 2 hefty glasses of red, I've switched to 3 fingers worth of Johnny Walker Blue. There will be impolite language.  

Dream Pizza: *insert incoherent noise between a D'AWWWW and an OUCH*  I knew it was a dream but I still loved every moment.  This is all the happiness either boy wants.  Maybe this is their version of heaven.  Note: And Sam doesn't actually fit in that bed.  

No Joke Too Low:  You KNOW that they had a FIELD DAY with the limp rift bit.  Seriously, to these guys it's like feeding red meat to a lion.  I need to see the gag reel for this scene.  Of course, they pushed the envelope pretty far.  Favorite moment: when the rift wilted over.  Second favorite moment: Dean thinking about Gabriel extracting his essence in his room.  *snort*

Robriel: First, she's not wrong .. that IS a nice tusch.  And while she may have been on Gabriel's bucket list, corrupting an Archangel was probably on hers.  I fully expect fanfiction where Sam joins in because ... RUDE.  Clearly Sam should have been involved.  

3 Amigos BroHugs: Loved Rowena channeling Crowley there.  Sam isn't wrong.  Neither is Cas. 

Cats In the Cradle:  I totally buy Lucifer trying to drink himself into oblivion.  This despondency has been a long time coming.  I liked that Gabriel and Rowena teamed up with a magic roofie to catch him.  I'm totally down with Rowena getting the upper hand on Luci.  Bonus: She called him "Luci".

Tapping the Luci Keg: That was never going to last.  They needed a shit-ton more binding.  Although I like that "anger" once again increased his powers. Also liked the call-back to him singing "Stairway to Heaven" 72 times in Sam's Hellucination.  Singing loudly off-key is clearly the annoying brat that is Lucifer's go-to.  

Road Trip: I am really glad they had the Cas/Gabriel moment regarding Heaven.  I'd like to see that payoff.  Also like that we had just a wee Sam/Dean moment before everything went to shit.

Mines of Moria: So VERY WELL DONE.  The lighting via flashlight is always a spooky plus.  Reminds one that this IS in fact a horror show.  

Sam's Death: The arterial spray! 1) Gross, 2) Effective.  Normally I would expect Dean to stop everything and just go after Sam, but the arterial spray was enough IMO for Dean to know that all he was retrieving was a body.  I totally quaffed the red wine at this point and called Robert Berens Bad Names as I looked at Dean's sticken face.  See, it's not Sam's death that gets you -- it's Dean's PAIN.  And the reverse would be true if it was Dean who died.  But Jensen sold Dean going into autopilot mode very well.  And it underscored the horror of it all.  I felt just as stunned. Of COURSE I knew that Sam would come back, but that didn't matter.  I felt Dean's pain.  A tribute to Jensen Ackle's acting.

Sam's Resurrection: At first I was a little irritated because it looked like "Red Meat, Pt 2". But having Lucifer resurrect him was PERFECT.  I am on board with Lucifer seeing his son Jack as the only meaningful thing he's got left.  And offering up Sam as a "gift" is very clever.  I like it when Lucifer is clever.  I liked how Sam was also pragmatic enough to know being alive when Lucifer found Jack was a better option than just dying again, knowing Lucifer would get to Jack anyway.  Kudos for the "I found some of Michael's angels and ate them" line.  Suitably gross and very Lucifer.

The Single Man Tear: Dammit Ackles.  Stop breaking that out.  Yes. TOTALLY warranted.  Yes, it ripped my soul in half.  Having to face Mary and acknowledge Sam was dead.  This was the first time Dean showed any "life" after escaping the Mines of Moria.  

Jack in Denial: Oh Cinnamon Bun!!!! Of COURSE you want to resurrect Sammy!  I love you.  I need to hug you now.  Thank you for being both distraught and then joyous when Sam showed up.  Extra bonus points for Dean's first instinct to immediately go back to retrieve the body.  Did I mention how much I love Dean Winchester?  That's my boy.

Sam's Return: I really liked Jared's look as he was both happy to be there and somewhat ashamed that he let Lucifer come with him.  Of course Sam has nothing to feel bad about -- it was the right thing to do -- but that isn't going to stop the guilt.  And every bad thing that happens due to Lucifer, Sam is going to take on his own. 

Bottom Line for the TL; DR: I f*cking loved this episode.  It was full of awkward comedy, horror, action, and gut-wrenching drama.  A solid hour of Supernatural.

Social Media Bonus: Woot! Got two "likes" for my tweets from Bobo Berens (where I kinda threatened him for making me have feels).  

Edited May 4, 2018 by SueB

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, BoxManLocke said:

I wasn't asking for Gabriel to dispatch all the vamps. But he didn't fight at all. Neither did Castiel. There isn't a single shot of them fighting. Seeing them struggle with vampires while Sam was getting murdered would have made, at least, a little more sense.

Like belbar said, there was potential here to do something really cool, for example seeing Gabe and Cass mowing down half a dozen vamps in a desperate race to save Sam. But no, a seasoned director like Sgriccia couldn't do a scene like this justice, and it's disappointing and embarrassing.

Gabriel is a virtual red shirt.  He can be easily killed and can barely heal per the previous episode.

They were not maintaining good perimeter strategy and guarding their flanks....

[Castiels Cat]

28 minutes ago, SueB said:

That was fanf*ckingtastic. 

Disclaimer: After 2 hefty glasses of red, I've switched to 3 fingers worth of Johnny Walker Blue. There will be impolite language.  

Dream Pizza: *insert incoherent noise between a D'AWWWW and an OUCH*  I knew it was a dream but I still loved every moment.  This is all the happiness either boy wants.  Maybe this is their version of heaven.  Note: And Sam doesn't actually fit in that bed.  

No Joke Too Low:  You KNOW that they had a FIELD DAY with the limp rift bit.  Seriously, to these guys it's like feeding red meat to a lion.  I need to see the gag reel for this scene.  Of course, they pushed the envelope pretty far.  Favorite moment: when the rift wilted over.  Second favorite moment: Dean thinking about Gabriel extracting his essence in his room.  *snort*

Robriel: First, she's not wrong .. that IS a nice tusch.  And while she may have been on Gabriel's bucket list, corrupting an Archangel was probably on hers.  I fully expect fanfiction where Sam joins in because ... RUDE.  Clearly Sam should have been involved.  

3 Amigos BroHugs: Loved Rowena channeling Crowley there.  Sam isn't wrong.  Neither is Cas. 

Cats In the Cradle:  I totally buy Lucifer trying to drink himself into oblivion.  This despondency has been a long time coming.  I liked that Gabriel and Rowena teamed up with a magic roofie to catch him.  I'm totally down with Rowena getting the upper hand on Luci.  Bonus: She called him "Luci".

Tapping the Luci Keg: That was never going to last.  They needed a shit-ton more binding.  Although I like that "anger" once again increased his powers. Also liked the call-back to him singing "Stairway to Heaven" 72 times in Sam's Hellucination.  Singing loudly off-key is clearly the annoying brat that is Lucifer's go-to.  

Road Trip: I am really glad they had the Cas/Gabriel moment regarding Heaven.  I'd like to see that payoff.  Also like that we had just a wee Sam/Dean moment before everything went to shit.

Mines of Moria: So VERY WELL DONE.  The lighting via flashlight is always a spooky plus.  Reminds one that this IS in fact a horror show.  

Sam's Death: The arterial spray! 1) Gross, 2) Effective.  Normally I would expect Dean to stop everything and just go after Sam, but the arterial spray was enough IMO for Dean to know that all he was retrieving was a body.  I totally quaffed the red wine at this point and called Robert Berens Bad Names as I looked at Dean's sticken face.  See, it's not Sam's death that gets you -- it's Dean's PAIN.  And the reverse would be true if it was Dean who died.  But Jensen sold Dean going into autopilot mode very well.  And it underscored the horror of it all.  I felt just as stunned. Of COURSE I knew that Sam would come back, but that didn't matter.  I felt Dean's pain.  A tribute to Jensen Ackle's acting.

Sam's Resurrection: At first I was a little irritated because it looked like "Red Meat, Pt 2". But having Lucifer resurrect him was PERFECT.  I am on board with Lucifer seeing his son Jack as the only meaningful thing he's got left.  And offering up Sam as a "gift" is very clever.  I like it when Lucifer is clever.  I liked how Sam was also pragmatic enough to know being alive when Lucifer found Jack was a better option than just dying again, knowing Lucifer would get to Jack anyway.  Kudos for the "I found some of Michael's angels and ate them" line.  Suitably gross and very Lucifer.

The Single Man Tear: Dammit Ackles.  Stop breaking that out.  Yes. TOTALLY warranted.  Yes, it ripped my soul in half.  Having to face Mary and acknowledge Sam was dead.  This was the first time Dean showed any "life" after escaping the Mines of Moria.  

Jack in Denial: Oh Cinnamon Bun!!!! Of COURSE you want to resurrect Sammy!  I love you.  I need to hug you now.  Thank you for being both distraught and then joyous when Sam showed up.  Extra bonus points for Dean's first instinct to immediately go back to retrieve the body.  Did I mention how much I love Dean Winchester?  That's my boy.

Sam's Return: I really liked Jared's look as he was both happy to be there and somewhat ashamed that he let Lucifer come with him.  Of course Sam has nothing to feel bad about -- it was the right thing to do -- but that isn't going to stop the guilt.  And every bad thing that happens due to Lucifer, Sam is going to take on his own. 

Bottom Line for the TL; DR: I f*cking loved this episode.  It was full of awkward comedy, horror, action, and gut-wrenching drama.  A solid hour of Supernatural.

Social Media Bonus: Woot! Got two "likes" for my tweets from Bobo Berens (where I kinda threatened him for making me have feels).  

I don't like obvious exercises in manipulation.

Sure the flipped the right switches in places 

They went too far in others 

I think Berens was far  better under Carver than Dabb.

Lucifer gets stronger when he is mad 

So does,Jack I suspect.

Eh... Gabriel is pretty weak... not sure he will make it between AU Michael and Lucifer.

Still banking in Dean!Michael.  Although the route to that may be more twisted ..  as in Rowena's,see plan B...

[BoxManLocke]

13 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Gabriel is a virtual red shirt.  He can be easily killed and can barely heal per the previous episode.

They were not maintaining good perimeter strategy and guarding their flanks....

If Gabriel is fine enough to battle a bunch of demigods, I think he can lift a finger against some measly vampires. It was never said that he couldn't fight at all. He was strong enough to trick Lucifer and to remove the powerful warding. Also, if he couldn't fight at all, why the hell bring him in the AW in the first place ? Hell the poor girl that was scared out of her mind showed more fighting spirit than either Gabriel or Castiel.

 

The problem wasn't the perimeter, it was the director deciding a scene in which one of the brothers dies is not important enough to make sense for all characters involved, and not important enough to have as much impact as possible. It's pretty telling that they can't even care about something so basic anymore.

Edited May 4, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[SueB]

Just now, Castiels Cat said:

I don't like obvious exercises in manipulation.

Sure the flipped the right switches in places 

They went too far in others 

I think Berens was far  better under Carver than Dabb.

Lucifer gets stronger when he is mad 

So does,Jack I suspect.

Eh... Gabriel is pretty weak... not sure he will make it between AU Michael and Lucifer.

Still banking in Dean!Michael.  Although the route to that may be more twisted ..  as in Rowena's,see plan B...

I liked the 'death by random vamp' angle.  At this point we EXPECT the boys to survive those encounters and it's a good reminder that each is deadly.  Plus I think it pushes Dean further down the despair road.  

[BoxManLocke]

 

So apparently a good part of the endless dick joke segment was not from Berens but the cast & crew deciding to push this as much they could.

 

It's good to know they can make scripts even worse.

[Castiels Cat]

8 minutes ago, SueB said:

I liked the 'death by random vamp' angle.  At this point we EXPECT the boys to survive those encounters and it's a good reminder that each is deadly.  Plus I think it pushes Dean further down the despair road.  

Oh no doubt thst It pushes Dean further down that road.  And Lucifer is just going to add fuel to that fire as well because that will not end well and Dean knows it.

Head and no to your other point.  Yes they should survive it but this is an AU and everything is different. .

Moreover Dean is different.  Usually Dean is on point, in lead... he wasn't.  The operation was sloppy because they did not secure their perimeter. This from the guy rhat thrived in Purgatory.  We saw it when he was With Ketch too. Dean went down then too.  Now I do not see thos as ooc or bad writing.  I see this as signs of his mental state. I am quite sincere in my belief that his relative mental state is dire and that the amount of characters with mental health issues this season is astonishing.

I am curious what this means for season 14 and whether it has mytharc implications.  Cage Michael must be "crazy" because all of the characters have issues.  Is the superverse suffering some cosmic malaise which ties into fate or some such.  IDK.  It is just a very curious and deliberate choice to have so many characters voice mebtal health issues.   Or it is,solidarity with J2's charity???

Finally the direction in the tunnel drew from both Rec 1 and the Descent.   Obviously there would be gore gakore, blood spatter and death.  Spoilers put money on Sam.  Lucifer through the rift put money on him being Sam's salvation. So no surorise all heart strings,were effectively twanged. 

It was entertaining.  The Red Meat 2 moniker is s apt.  I had similar feelings about that by the way.  At least this did not have lol law enforcement and lol urgent care.

[ZennyKenny]

I honestly couldn't tell what was going on in those caves so I didn't notice that Gabriel and Cas weren't fighting. I figured they each had their own vamps to deal with.

 

Overall I DID like the episode. Unlike a lot of people, I'm sure, my wife and I were laughing at the over-the-top cheesiness during the first part of the episode with Gabriel and Rowena. I guess my main problem was the jarring tonal shift halfway through. Well, that and also the writers not expecting me to roll my eyes at one of the Winchesters dying again (I honestly stopped feeling anything for that way back when Metatron killed Dean). But it comes with the territory, so it's fine. Also I'm sorry, I know it's immature, but I love "annoying" Lucifer, more than I like "threatening" Lucifer. Him getting on Rowena's nerves was so childish and it made me laugh. It's really difficult to muster up any sense of fear of him, though; he's just not scary. Oh and I LOVED the Gabriel/Cas bonding moment. More of that please!

[Bergamot]

3 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I honestly couldn't tell what was going on in those caves so I didn't notice that Gabriel and Cas weren't fighting.

I couldn't tell what was going on either. It was too dark and everything was kind of a jumble on the screen. But then I thought that all the action sequences in the episode were clunky and poorly directed.

I did not think that Gabriel's "drooping rift" or Lucifer being annoying by singing "Camptown Races" were clever or funny, sorry. It actually does strike me as kind of funny that the two supernaturally powered angels that came along on the expedition were instructed to help by lifting rocks, and then were apparently so busy doing this that they could not join in the battle against the vampires that were killing the humans a few feet away. Clunky!

One thing I was wondering about -- if Rowena could cause Lucifer to fall unconscious, why didn't she just keep him unconscious the whole time they were draining his grace? Then they wouldn't have had to worry about him escaping (and we wouldn't have had to listen to him!) Also, how did they find him in the first place? But I guess they needed to use any time where they could have gone into stuff like this for more jokes about Gabriel being impotent.

I think the episode should have shown Castiel's reunion with Jack. After all, he is Jack's foster father, so to speak, and if the Lucifer and Jack relationship is going to be highlighted, then Jack's prior connection to Cas is important.

[catrox14]

That vampire looked just like Eric Kripke's Twitter Avatar.

That was...bad. Terrible writing and characterization. 

Cas WOULD NEVER tell Dean to not check on Sam. He just wouldn't. No fucking way.

Cas and Gabriel couldn't sense Lucifer in the AW? Really???

And now Dean will have all the guilt for not going back for Sam.

Dean who? Did Dean do anything other than fret over Sam? Sorry, I'm tired of that dynamic.
I wasn't even shocked that Sam was bit and turned. I knew he would be saved. 

I have had it up to here with Lucifer and Sam.  I am so over it. They have run this into the ground.

[Zanne]

Seriously, vampires. You have ONE job. ONE. And that is to drink people's blood. Not tear open their throats to create a humanoid water feature.

Those were the most epic fail vampires ever. They let all the blood spill on the floor as they drag away the empty-squeezed-out-juice-box-formerly-known-as-Sam.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I guess we're not gonna talk about Sam choosing to live by agreeing to lead Lucifer right to Jack though.

Yeah.....that's gonna be a problem. I'm guessing Sam is going to say he just presumed that Jack would not be negatively impacted by Lucifer.  Otherwise...yeah....

That's kind of a problem

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

They saw Sam get his throat ripped out, Cas the body.

Gabriel said he wasn't strong enough.

What more could they have done?

I still don't think Cas would have prevented him from taking 5 minutes to verify Sam's status. I thought that was OOC for Cas.

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I wonder if Sam will be mad at Lucifer later for taking away his right to die? *snerk*

Oh shit. I know you're being a little facetious but it's actually a great and valid question. That really does have a fuckton of implications.

[ZennyKenny]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Cas WOULD NEVER tell Dean to not check on Sam. He just wouldn't. No fucking way.

Thank you! That's what I'm saying.

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I still don't think Cas would have prevented him from taking 5 minutes to verify Sam's status. I thought that was OOC for Cas.

I think Cas was doing him a kindness considering Sam was eaten by uber-vamps. He didn't need to see that. 

If a guy's throat is ripped out and who knows what else, there is no checking. 

Edited May 4, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ZennyKenny]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

They saw Sam get his throat ripped out, Cas the body.

Gabriel said he wasn't strong enough.

What more could they have done?

Wait Cas saw the body? Ohhh, okay I didn't get that. I thought Cas couldn't find where the vamps dragged Sam off too and they all just gave up looking for him right away. That's why I was "WTF"ing.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think Cas was doing him a kindness considering Sam was eaten by uber-vamps. He didn't need to see that. 

Maybe. I just think given that Dean has seen Sam jump into a pit, saw him shot and attacked by werewolves, and any other number of things, that this wouldn't be something Cas would protect him from. I do appreciate you trying to make sense of it.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, ZennyKenny said:

Wait Cas saw the body? Ohhh, okay I didn't get that. I thought Cas couldn't find where the vamps dragged Sam off too and they all just gave up looking for him right away. That's why I was "WTF"ing.

I don't think so. Cas ran after them (when he finally moved) and was coming back when Dean came through. He stopped him from seeing a torn up Sam.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ZennyKenny said:

Wait Cas saw the body? Ohhh, okay I didn't get that. I thought Cas couldn't find where the vamps dragged Sam off too and they all just gave up looking for him right away. That's why I was "WTF"ing.

I thought the same thing as you. I didn't take it that Cas saw Sam's body at all. I'm gonna have to rewatch that scene.  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe. I just think given that Dean has seen Sam jump into a pit, saw him shot and attacked by werewolves, and any other number of things, that this wouldn't be something Cas would protect him from. I do appreciate you trying to make sense of it.

I think he would in these circumstances. Sam's condition, his certainty that he was dead (surely his angel powers should afford him that?) and that they really didn't have time for Dean to mourn.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

think he would in these circumstances. Sam's condition, his certainty that he was dead (surely his angel powers should afford him that?) and that they really didn't have time for Dean to mourn.

Who knows about his angel powers now. He didn't sense that Lucifer was in the AW which why wouldn't he? But like ZennyKenny I didn't think Cas saw his body. I thought he just made an assumption.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Who knows about his angel powers now. He didn't sense that Lucifer was in the AW which why wouldn't he? But like ZennyKenny I didn't think Cas saw his body. I thought he just made an assumption.

I'm certain he did. Plus they wouldn't have mentioned Gabriel not being able to fix him if he hadn't seen that he was truly dead.

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm certain he did. Plus they wouldn't have mentioned Gabriel not being able to fix him if he hadn't seen that he was truly dead.

See I thought they were saying that in general Gabriel wouldn't be able to heal anyone.  Not specifically bring Sam back.  But to be fair, I was rolling my eyes so hard at most of the episode I might have missed some stuff. I'll watch again. 

[ZennyKenny]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought the same thing as you. I didn't take it that Cas saw Sam's body at all. I'm gonna have to rewatch that scene.  

Yeah tbh that whol segment was disorienting to both my wife and I. Even after the break, when Sam woke up my wife was like "Oh! So it was the glo-stick that the vampire bit into! That explains the liquid spurting out of his neck." And then we looked at each other like wait that doesn't make sense... does it? 

[Myrelle]

Pretty much no harm, no foul in this one, thankfully.

The beginning stuff was ridiculous, but I knew we'd get plenty of that with Gabriel back in the mix.

Rowena could do so much better. I guess Dean killed BERnard in the last episode. Too bad. I liked him a whole lot better for Rowena than Gabriel.

Ugh and blech to the Lucifer stuff. Sam is welcome to it.

And while Dean got the emo again(and yes, IA with whoever said that the OPT will never not move them because Me too. Seriously.), I think this time it is leading somewhere.

 Dean was fascinating in this episode. Not feeling "the lightness" if it all like NaïveSam at all and likely because Dean had been down this road already numerous times. 

Dean still took point and Sam brought up the rear even though Sam was chomping at the bit to lead from the moment they entered the AU.

Dean coming face-to-face with Mary after having lost Sam was gut wrenching.

Sam coming back trailed by Lucifer was a good segue to the next episode.

I'm going to predict that Dean will not be the least bit surprised by anything bad or untoward that happens or comes about it in the next two episodes.

I think that Sam is the one who is going to be blindsided by many things.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

Okay, upon rewatch, I see what others are saying re Cas stopping Dean.  I'll relent my position on that. Plus upon rewatch it was more emotional. 

[devlin]

People keep saying it makes sense for sam to make a deal with luci coz otherwise for him to choose death would have made no sense. But that’s the thing about death, most of the time death makes no sense. Sam lost his life fair and square against a couple of monsters yet he gets to decide its better if he lives

[catrox14]

Here's what is a little confusing to me

Wouldn't Sam have just eventually resurrected as an AW vampire? He wasn't dead dead but a new species. Kind of like when Dean got turned in s6.  So maybe Sam could have just opted to become the AW vampire and then they could have found a cure instead of his bargain with Lucifer.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I thought the same thing as you. I didn't take it that Cas saw Sam's body at all. I'm gonna have to rewatch that scene.  

Everyone saw a huge ch7nk of his throat torn out followed by an arterial geyser which I think gives one seconds... so....

Vas followed into the tunnel where the vamps dragged Sam whilst Dean was fighting several.  He came out as Dean went in and said it was too late; Sam was dead.   Even if he had not had multiple vamps tearing him apart he would have bled out by then from the initial wound.  Tjose kinds of arterial spurters are fatal.

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Here's what is a little confusing to me

Wouldn't Sam have just eventually resurrected as an AW vampire? He wasn't dead dead but a new species. Kind of like when Dean got turned in s6.  So maybe Sam could have just opted to become the AW vampire and then they could have found a cure instead of his bargain with Lucifer.

We do not know the rules of AU vamps.

In Supernatural don't you have to be bitten  and fed vamp  blood while you are still alive per LFaT.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

Largey enjoyable dreck was Red Meat 2 yet obvious emotional acobatics I do not like says Castiel’s Cat nor do I like Sam i am’s gratuitous death just so Dean can emote so very beautifully y and shed those poignant man tears . The gift of life by Luci maneuver was as obvious as the blood on sam’s neck.

This is the second time Dean, the man who owned purgatory, has been lagging in the hunting skills department. I take it as a sign of his declining mental state. Instead of entering that cave under his direction per normal with the usual hand signs and paramilitary precision it was all rag tag, struggling, no securing of the perimeter.  They were asking to be killed. It reminded me of Dean with Ketch but exponentially worse. Dean is getting worse.

Now I am not saying Dean was trying to get him and everyone else killed.  People dealing with stuff are not at their best.  Dean is not at his best... visibly.  He would not last a day in Purgatory.

And yes. He lives. .Sammy lives!… Hallejulah. But what Dean just went through. It Was his worst nightmare and that has to have opened the cracks started by 12:23 all the more. He knows that they are all not coming home. And when he hears that the Apocalypse is going with them....

Lucifer is not going to help. He is a constant reminder of Dean failing Sam in Apocalypse 1.0 in Dean’s mind and folk ,tend to die around Luci. There will be blood.

I am gonna guess Jack has anger management issues like his and maybe his middle name is padawan….???  I am still not entirely sure which way he will break.  

It is very curious because they have tied both brothers to him thematically.  Jack looks up to Dean and seeks his approval. Both were mirtored last werk by their need to protect everyone.  They define failure by their inability to protect everyone.

Sam, Cas and Jack are connected through Lucifer, the former two actively trying to be surrogate parents.   

Rowena…. I have always loved that wee Bonnie witch.  She may be the path to Michael but I cannot believe master strategist Dean has not even had a flicker of consideration.

Limp grace Gabriel. I think he is just an extra pair of hands and he redeemed himself just by keeping his promise. I don’t see him fixing heaven. I see him dying. How can he survive.

Still beating on Dean!Michael.

[companionenvy]

Liked the episode, but at this point the show has to be more selective about when it tries to wring cheap drama over the (obviously) temporary deaths of one of its mains. We know Sam is coming back. Even the characters know at this point that there are tons of ways to bring people  back. So it is actually a little strange that Dean skipped straight over denial and went right to grief-stricken acceptance. Not that I think he would have stayed there - I'm sure if Sam hadn't returned so quickly, Dean would have eventually followed his usual playbook. But he was clearly acting as if he thought Sam was for reals, no coming back dead, and given the track record, that's a little bit much to take. Like, AFAIK, there's no hard time limit on angel resurrections. Isn't it possible that Jack could have resurrected Sam once they retrieved the body? Or, since Dean assumed Lucifer was still trapped in the bunker, couldn't he have planned on forcing Luci to resurrect Sam as soon as they got back? 

A show that includes  beings with the capacity to bring the dead back to life is always going to run into questions of why any particular death has to stick, and to an extent I'm willing to suspend disbelief and just not ask the question, but the show has to work with me a little bit. Namely, you have to provide some reason why various other options won't work if you're going to immediately have characters who have experienced multiple resurrections act just like any random civilian would upon losing a loved one. It would also help not to go to the well of "Oh noes, character X is dead, dead dead" so often. There were other ways of getting Lucifer to Jack - as Lucifer himself said to Sam, it wasn't like Sam refusing was going to ultimately stop him, especially if two random humans you bump into in the road are likely to be able to tell you exactly where the famous rebel leaders Mary and Jack are.

I was a little puzzled by the opening dream sequence, and it made me wonder if there was more there than met the eye. I mean, what's the point? I guess it maybe backs up the idea that Sam really is preoccupied with getting his mother and Jack back, or maybe shows that he's in a positive headspace, where he's imagining fun family time in the bunker and not brooding over dark visions of Jack and Mary dying. But I still think it was unnecessary ... unless there was more to it. So, I'm wondering if it wasn't setting up the return of Sam's visions. When he first started getting visions back at Stanford, they seemed like regular dreams, too, and I don't think there was ever any reason Sam's psychic powers had to manifest themselves exclusively in horrific visions. 

Other scattered thoughts:

- I don't blame Dean and Cas at all for leaving Sam, although I do think it is a little OOC that Dean wouldn't at least have to see Sam's body for himself. Not because he didn't trust Cas, but as a psychological compulsion.

-I also don't blame Sam for agreeing to lead Luci to Mary and Jack, for the reason I gave above: Luci was obviously going to get there with or without Sam. The only added value Sam has is as a "gift" that Lucifer can bring for Jack, and I don't think that's enough of a problem for team good for it to be worth Sam's death. Even there, if Sam had refused, Lucifer would have found another way to impress his son; this was just the easiest way. It is also only a problem if Cinnamon Roll is actually swayed by it, which will probably happen at least briefly, based on the set-up, but is hardly inevitable from an in-universe perspective.

- The premature ejaculation riff went on for too long, but I'll admit that I laughed. And I liked the Gabriel/Rowena hookup, which was very IC for both of them. I mean, I hadn't predicted it, but in retrospect, of course that was going to happen!

[Bobcatkitten]

I like a little humor but the dick jokes seemed pretty sophomoric capped off with Gabriel in Cas' crotch. Just glad they didn't have it be Dean/Cas. Would never hear the end of it.

 

I loved the first scene. I crave that in real life and know it will never happen.

 

The tunnel scene was creepy as heck and it was so quiet, which made it more tense. Last night I was pissed Dean left. Completely OOC. I am seeing some posts today that make me feel it's a little better. But overall I didn't understand why Cas and Gabriel couldn't handle those vamps. They can't fly but can't they still throw things and hold things against a wall etc.

 

Jensen sold a broken Dean amazingly well. But the number of times they kill someone and it doesn't matter has officially ruined any death scene for me now. They never stick so why should I be invested?

 

Kudos for some good music. The Cat's in the Cradle in the bar scene with Lucifer was great. As was him being confused about killing Gabriel and Rowena.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Bobcatkitten

[belbar]

9 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

In the Spoilers thread I commented that despite Sam Smith's interview, I didn't think the group would be Sam Winchester's merry gang, but there were several places in the early part of the journey where he took the lead where Dean normally would, and Dean just nodded his head in the background.  I personally find it weird for Dean to take a step back at times like that without any reason

If you ask me, Berens is working hard at paying his way to be the showrunner or main writer for Wayward whatever. He's been drinking the koolaid of Singer and Dabb by buckets.

[Myrelle]

My biggest emotion after this one is relief that we got past it without Dean making another deal to bring back or save Sam. Whew!

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

ed Sam whilst Dean was fighting several.  He came out as Dean went in and said it was too late; Sam was dead.   Even if he had not had multiple vamps tearing him apart he would have bled out by then from the initial wound.  Tjose kinds of arterial spurters are fatal.

Yeah, I made a subsequent post that upon rewatch I've changed my opinion.  I guess you hadn't gotten to that post yet.

[cavelupum]

I think I’ll have to watch this one again to really get a good grasp of how I feel about it overall, but for now, here are a few thoughts after a first viewing last night.

 

I loved the dream sequence that kicked off the episode.

 

I can buy Sam’s fear of Lucifer, but Castiel’s was less convincing — I doubt sitting in a headspace masquerading as the bunker’s kitchen watching television and mostly being left alone by Lucifer, in Castiel’s own words at the time, can compare in any way, shape, or form to what Sam suffered at his hands for over a century at least. I actually thought maybe Castiel was expressing a shared fear mostly for Sam’s benefit as opposed to it being an accurate depiction of how he feels, which is what I’ll choose to believe. Side-eyed him just a little bit on that “we” of his when talking about responsibility, as Castiel was the only one who actually freed Lucifer by saying yes.

 

The fight scene in the nest was confusing due to the lighting and number of characters involved, will definitely need to rewatch it.

 

I thought Dean‘s reunion with Mary was very well-done emotionally. I didn’t take Mary asking where Sam was as a slight on Dean’s importance to her at all, because she only did so after getting a good look at his face and realizing something was wrong, and of course Sam was conspicuous only by his absence which she must also have noticed.

 

It disgusts me that Sam was resurrected by Lucifer of all characters and that he was then immediately put into a no-win situation which forced him to, however reluctantly, do the Devil’s bidding or die (again). I don’t mean that as a knock on the writing as much as a remark on how it made me feel personally, as Sam had to come back somehow, but it feels unnecessarily cruel at this point and I genuinely hated watching it happen. Really hope we see the last of Lucifer soon and that Sam gets his comeuppance, as I feel like there must be few options more repulsive on a visceral level to Sam than being indebted to his torturer. His relieved face at seeing Dean and the others again morphing into that downcast look of shame when Lucifer came walking up behind him made my heart twist.

 

Ultimately, I think my biggest grievance with this episode was how rushed everything felt. I actually would have preferred them to save Sam’s resurrection for next week. Everyone already knows by now that Sam and Dean won’t die permanently until the show ends, but I think Sam’s death here would have felt much more “shocking” and the stakes higher (even if artificially) had they not brought him back before the episode ended. It just feels to me like they don’t let these emotional moments breathe, instead pushing through them as quickly as possible to keep things moving because they’re running out of time. I don’t have any major gripes with how it all went down, but I think a quick scene in which Dean forces his way past Castiel and sees Sam’s body because he can’t bring himself to believe it until his own eyes tell him it’s true would have helped to mitigate that nagging feeling of everyone being able to move forward way too quickly and easily for such a tragic and unexpected turn of events. While the Gabriel/Rowena scene was amusing, I would have happily seen it cut in favor of a bigger and better emotional beat where and when it counted, but I thought everyone did well with what material they had.

[SueB]

Brief double-check on the tactics/sequence in the Mines of Moria:
- Dean was on point, Sam was last position, those needing protection in between -- typical for Supernatural - So Dean, Maggie, Floyd, Cas, Gabriel, Sam
- The camera angles and the darkness definitely added confusion as to who was where
- As mentioned above, Cas and Gabriel were secondary fighters and put on removing the rocks
- IMO plugging up the tunnel with rocks was a trap laid by the barely coherennt vampires -- Cas & Gabe were put on rock removal while Sam and Dean watched the perimeter -- this would have been better if Sam or Dean had barked out direction to the civilians to form a circle to protect Cas & Gabe while they dug (Note 1) -- also Maggie & Floyd were watching the perimeter but closer to the center (we see Floyd looking back down an empty tunnel)
- There were simply too many vamps, their attack was coordinated
Sequence:
1) Sam saw movement, then Sam and Floyd were attacked simultaneously
2) Sam takes out his attacker ('I got it, I got it') while Maggie runs to help Floyd - Floyd gets dragged off - there's at least 2-3 on Floyd
3) Maggie jumps into the fray trying to save Floyd and is fighting a vamp, Dean takes on that one
4) Sam gets attacked by two vamps while Dean is dealing with his vamps - Dean yells "Sammy", Sam gets bit yelling "Dean", Dean yells "Sam!" and then we see the throat ripped out and the arterial spray -- it's well lit and we see Dean sees it.
5) As they drag Sam off, Cas goes running after his vamp and Dean dispatches his vamp
6) Cas stops and comes back and stops Dean from going farther, telling him it's too late and they have no time

Why it makes sense IMO:
- Getting out of that trap location was the priority -- Cas and Gabriel stayed on rock duty trying to get them an escape route, the vamp attack also happened so rapidly that they didn't see the boys were overwhelmed until we had the arterial spray
- Cas was right that they had no time - it was clear the tunnels were full of vamps (again, think more "Mines of Moria" and less simple nest of vamps)
- Sam was dead before he hit the floor, neither Cas nor Gabe had the juice to heal him, the wound was mortal and Dean knew it - running after him was instinct but Cas apparently saw "enough" to know that there was no hope of retrieving Sam (Note 2)
- Letting Dean go after Sam's dead body would likely get everyone else killed, Cas knew it and Dean knew it
- Sam wasn't turned because the vamps don't want MORE vamps -- there's already a food shortage -- Sam was just blood
- The vamps were pretty much animalistic at this point - they had enough skills to lay a trap but they were not really coherent IMO

Note 1:  I think it was kind of a style choice to add to the confusion of the scene by not having clear directions provided to Maggie & Floyd, it worked effectively to create a confused melee scene but it took a rewatch to see that they weren't being tactically stupid
Note 2: I suspect Cas saw the vamps vanishing in the distance into a tunnel with a dead Sam corpse. Vamps move fast, chasing after them in a dark series of tunnels would make no sense given how vulnerable the rest of the team was and how hopeless it was to revive Sam

Finally, I keep using 'Mines of Moria' on purpose because that's exactly the feel I think they were going for.  A maze of tunnels full of deadly creatures.  The team's best bet was to keep moving as quickly as possible, hold off attacks in the constricted tunnels as they made their way through. When they got to the open spot with the plugged tunnel (which I think was a trap), speed was their only hope.  But the attack came quickly and somewhat coordinated.  Makes sense they would send 2 for "the big one".  There were just too many vamps and too few super-skilled fighters.   

Edited May 4, 2018 by SueB

[KirkB]

I think the gang got what they deserved concerning Lucifer. They took Cas and Gabriel, the only two beings who could realistically do ANYTHING to even slow Lucifer down if he got loose with them through the rift, leaving Luci behind with only a meager binding spell and poor Rowena to stop him. The fact she even survived was because Luci wasn't trying very hard to kill her and she got incredibly lucky.

I get what they were going for in the tunnel, but I don't think killing Sam just to bring him right back was really the right move. No one watching would have thought Sam was going to actually stay dead. He was obviously either going to become a vamp himself for a while or else Luci would save him. I think they wanted to separate Sam from the others so they could put a damper on the reunion with Mary and Jack. It probably would have been better to simply have them separated by the swarm of vamps and Sam tells the other to go, to get to mom and Jack and he'll try to find a way out and join them. Cas and Gabriel have to drag Dean away. Sam knows he's screwed but tries to go down fighting, only to have the tunnel fill up with sunlight that fries all the vamps at once and when it fades Lucifer is standing there with a grin on his face and a little "Hey Sammy" and Sam knows he is now even more screwed.

[ILoveReading]

7 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Dean was fascinating in this episode. Not feeling "the lightness" if it all like NaïveSam at all and likely because Dean had been down this road already numerous times. 

Non verbal communication is one of Jensen's greatest strengths.  Dean's body language really communicated that he didn't think things were going to go their way.   Dean has great instincts so I wonder if deep down he knows Mary isn't going to leave. 

 

7 hours ago, Myrelle said:

And while Dean got the emo again(and yes, IA with whoever said that the OPT will never not move them because Me too. Seriously.), I think this time it is leading somewhere.

I really hope so.  I hope the trauma Dean went through here isn't ignored next week.  But I agree Dean's been fascinating to watch these last couple of weeks.  He's just done, and clearly at the end of his rope.  I think Jensen has been trying to convey this most of the season,  in spite of the writing.

One thing, I also noticed is that Dean want mute after Sam's death. 

Even though, Dean's line count in this episode seemed low, he still had the most to say.  Give Jensen an emmy already.

Edited May 4, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

53 minutes ago, KirkB said:

I get what they were going for in the tunnel, but I don't think killing Sam just to bring him right back was really the right move. No one watching would have thought Sam was going to actually stay dead. He was obviously either going to become a vamp himself for a while or else Luci would save him. I think they wanted to separate Sam from the others so they could put a damper on the reunion with Mary and Jack. It probably would have been better to simply have them separated by the swarm of vamps and Sam tells the other to go, to get to mom and Jack and he'll try to find a way out and join them. Cas and Gabriel have to drag Dean away. Sam knows he's screwed but tries to go down fighting, only to have the tunnel fill up with sunlight that fries all the vamps at once and when it fades Lucifer is standing there with a grin on his face and a little "Hey Sammy" and Sam knows he is now even more screwed.

I like that. It's much better.  I've been very vocal about my annoyance of all the deaths and resurrections over the years.  I would even say that the "hey, Sammy" would have been a better way to end the episode.  I would have been more on the edge of my seat wondering what was going to happen and what Lucifer wanted with Sam than I am with them having just walked into camp.

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Brief double-check on the tactics/sequence in the Mines of Moria:
- Dean was on point, Sam was last position, those needing protection in between -- typical for Supernatural - So Dean, Maggie, Floyd, Cas, Gabriel, Sam
- The camera angles and the darkness definitely added confusion as to who was where
- As mentioned above, Cas and Gabriel were secondary fighters and put on removing the rocks
- IMO plugging up the tunnel with rocks was a trap laid by the barely coherennt vampires -- Cas & Gabe were put on rock removal while Sam and Dean watched the perimeter -- this would have been better if Sam or Dean had barked out direction to the civilians to form a circle to protect Cas & Gabe while they dug (Note 1) -- also Maggie & Floyd were watching the perimeter but closer to the center (we see Floyd looking back down an empty tunnel)
- There were simply too many vamps, their attack was coordinated
Sequence:
1) Sam saw movement, then Sam and Floyd were attacked simultaneously
2) Sam takes out his attacker ('I got it, I got it') while Maggie runs to help Floyd - Floyd gets dragged off - there's at least 2-3 on Floyd
3) Maggie jumps into the fray trying to save Floyd and is fighting a vamp, Dean takes on that one
4) Sam gets attacked by two vamps while Dean is dealing with his vamps - Dean yells "Sammy", Sam gets bit yelling "Dean", Dean yells "Sam!" and then we see the throat ripped out and the arterial spray -- it's well lit and we see Dean sees it.
5) As they drag Sam off, Cas goes running after his vamp and Dean dispatches his vamp
6) Cas stops and comes back and stops Dean from going farther, telling him it's too late and they have no time

Why it makes sense IMO:
- Getting out of that trap location was the priority -- Cas and Gabriel stayed on rock duty trying to get them an escape route, the vamp attack also happened so rapidly that they didn't see the boys were overwhelmed until we had the arterial spray
- Cas was right that they had no time - it was clear the tunnels were full of vamps (again, think more "Mines of Moria" and less simple nest of vamps)
- Sam was dead before he hit the floor, neither Cas nor Gabe had the juice to heal him, the wound was mortal and Dean knew it - running after him was instinct but Cas apparently saw "enough" to know that there was no hope of retrieving Sam (Note 2)
- Letting Dean go after Sam's dead body would likely get everyone else killed, Cas knew it and Dean knew it
- Sam wasn't turned because the vamps don't want MORE vamps -- there's already a food shortage -- Sam was just blood
- The vamps were pretty much animalistic at this point - they had enough skills to lay a trap but they were not really coherent IMO

Note 1:  I think it was kind of a style choice to add to the confusion of the scene by not having clear directions provided to Maggie & Floyd, it worked effectively to create a confused melee scene but it took a rewatch to see that they weren't being tactically stupid
Note 2: I suspect Cas saw the vamps vanishing in the distance into a tunnel with a dead Sam corpse. Vamps move fast, chasing after them in a dark series of tunnels would make no sense given how vulnerable the rest of the team was and how hopeless it was to revive Sam

Finally, I keep using 'Mines of Moria' on purpose because that's exactly the feel I think they were going for.  A maze of tunnels full of deadly creatures.  The team's best bet was to keep moving as quickly as possible, hold off attacks in the constricted tunnels as they made their way through. When they got to the open spot with the plugged tunnel (which I think was a trap), speed was their only hope.  But the attack came quickly and somewhat coordinated.  Makes sense they would send 2 for "the big one".  There were just too many vamps and too few super-skilled fighters.   

I know there are rational explanations for how it played out, but I don’t think that Dean would be rational at that point. He’s been on the brink for weeks, plus it’s Sam. I think he would have needed to see the body himself. I think he would have made the Archangel who was right there with him at least try to revive Sam. Or he would have wanted to drag Sam to the other Archangel they had back at the Bunker and at least attempt to force him to revive Sam. That’s why it did seem like giving up way too quickly to me.

I do love the Mines of Moria analogy! The vampires were very orc-like. Does this mean Sam has gone from being Sam the Gray to Sam the White now? 

[Pondlass1]

I was mesmerized by the amount of grace goop dripping out of Luci... that and Rowena's over the top eye makeup. Yikes!

 

It's such a shame.  They have good quality actors here, but they're being wasted. They have great characters too, but they just do the same things over and over. And we all had so many expectations for the AU last year when the season began.  But sadly it's just dissolved into TWD  only with vampires and meany angels.  Mary is Rick, I guess?  He wasn't much bothered about his son either .... until he was.

Killing Sam doesn't do a damn thing these days, writers!! We're not reaching for the hankies. We're yawning. We KNOW he's not going to stay dead.  A  feeble attempt at some concocted drama.  They could've made it through the tunnel killing vamps on the way and Mary could have hugged BOTH her sons (what a refreshing sight that would've been!) when they came out the other end. Luci simply could've followed them.  He was going to find the motley TWD group anyway whether Sam lead the way or not.

It was dull.  Even the tunnel was dull.   OK the creatures were scary looking but they didn't build any suspense.  Flashlights in a tunnel where there could be vamps hiding round any corner should have had us biting nails.  And how come Luci could tame them?

 

The only thing I have to hang onto now is whatever Dean is going to do when he 'steps up'.  However it probably won't last more than an episode.

[bearcatfan]

Did they say Moria or Morehead? Morehead, KY is in the north eastern part of the state. The area is in the foothills of the Applalachian Mountains so it made sense to me. I just assumed the tunnel was near Morehead. I don’t know that you could get to Dayton on foot in 2 days though. Dayton is over 50 miles from Cincinnati and that’s almost a straight shot north and already in Ohio. I mean, they could have named them Moria, but I swore it was Morehead  

I thought the tunnel was creepy as hell. I knew something was going to happen and was on the edge of my seat waiting for it.

I’m not sure why Sam is always supposed to defer to Dean and shouldn’t ever say anything. I know some here would be happy if Sam never said a word, always was in the background and basically was wallpaper, but that’s not going to happen on this show. Letting Sam say that they will head towards Dayton or go through the tunnel doesn’t mean that Dean is deferring if he would make the same decision. 

[Jeddah]

2 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Did they say Moria or Morehead? Morehead, KY is in the north eastern part of the state. The area is in the foothills of the Applalachian Mountains so it made sense to me. I just assumed the tunnel was near Morehead. I don’t know that you could get to Dayton on foot in 2 days though. Dayton is over 50 miles from Cincinnati and that’s almost a straight shot north and already in Ohio. I mean, they could have named them Moria, but I swore it was Morehead  

I thought the tunnel was creepy as hell. I knew something was going to happen and was on the edge of my seat waiting for it.

I’m not sure why Sam is always supposed to defer to Dean and shouldn’t ever say anything. I know some here would be happy if Sam never said a word, always was in the background and basically was wallpaper, but that’s not going to happen on this show. Letting Sam say that they will head towards Dayton or go through the tunnel doesn’t mean that Dean is deferring if he would make the same decision. 

I don’t think the show said Moria. I was just responding to SueB calling it that since it did seem very similar to the Mines of Moria!

[Wynne88]

2 hours ago, cavelupum said:

I think Sam’s death here would have felt much more “shocking” and the stakes higher (even if artificially) had they not brought him back before the episode ended. It just feels to me like they don’t let these emotional moments breathe, instead pushing through them as quickly as possible to keep things moving because they’re running out of time.

Absolutely agree with this.

[belbar]

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

I was mesmerized by the amount of grace goop dripping out of Luci... that and Rowena's over the top eye makeup. Yikes!

 

It's such a shame.  They have good quality actors here, but they're being wasted. They have great characters too, but they just do the same things over and over. And we all had so many expectations for the AU last year when the season began.  But sadly it's just dissolved into TWD  only with vampires and meany angels.  Mary is Rick, I guess?  He wasn't much bothered about his son either .... until he was.

Killing Sam doesn't do a damn thing these days, writers!! We're not reaching for the hankies. We're yawning. We KNOW he's not going to stay dead.  A  feeble attempt at some concocted drama.  They could've made it through the tunnel killing vamps on the way and Mary could have hugged BOTH her sons (what a refreshing sight that would've been!) when they came out the other end. Luci simply could've followed them.  He was going to find the motley TWD group anyway whether Sam lead the way or not.

It was dull.  Even the tunnel was dull.   OK the creatures were scary looking but they didn't build any suspense.  Flashlights in a tunnel where there could be vamps hiding round any corner should have had us biting nails.  And how come Luci could tame them?

 

The only thing I have to hang onto now is whatever Dean is going to do when he 'steps up'.  However it probably won't last more than an episode.

Thanks for expressing it so well. Yes the never ending grace dripping from Lucifer was weird to say the least. I guess it's just another case of super duper when convenient.

And yes the saddest part is that hey have a good story to begin with and some great actors (sorry I don't think that Speight is one of them). In fact Jensen's performance of the trauma was brilliant and moving. And that's exactly why it's a shame that instead of making the most of it, they only repeat once and again the same scene.

After a second viewing I stand by my initial opinnion that it was just a repeat of Red Meat with some fan service seasoning. But hey Berens is a great businessman, he just edited the old script, made a few edits and resold it. Great deal.

[Dobian]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That was...bad. Terrible writing and characterization. 

Cas WOULD NEVER tell Dean to not check on Sam. He just wouldn't. No fucking way.

Yeah that was pretty awful.  Dean wouldn't walk out of there letting Sam be vampire food in a million years.  Even if he knew he was dead, he would go in there to retrieve his body and knock Cas over for getting in his way.  Just way out of character.

[Aeryn13]

This was pretty meh. 

I mean, Dean was pretty much a background character here but while that would never endear an episode to me, in and of itself, you could still make it work. Even I don`t demand every single episode centered on my favourite. But I thought the episode as a whole felt rushed, contrived and messy. 

The scenes in the mines was really. really badly blocked and directed. The angels mosey on over to manually lift the rocks. Yeesh, earlier Gabriel had enough mojo to pull of a morphing that fooled Lucifer and whatever he did with the bar. So he couldn`t snap his fingers and make a few rocks go bye-bye? Right after, he already has enough juice to break powerful warding. So, plot-contrivant. 

Then everyone wanders off instead of staying in one tight fighting circle. Who are you, the super-dumb characters from a horror movie? 

Sam getting killed off just made me shake my head. I mean, why even? He was predictably back after two minutes. And apparently, the point of it all was just to facilitate him having to bring Lucifer to Jack. Which, I don`t blame Sam for but everything just felt terribly contrived and rushed. I hope it`s not a set-up for a redo in the Finale. Hopefully the writers continue their shtick of not talking to each other.

And Berens did some pimping of Sam here with the leadership, hero moments, planning and all that. Before he kinda crapped on the character once it was time for the Lucifer show again. 

Still no Michael anywhere in sight, either variety. 

The talk between Cas and Gabriel was actually interesting.

And I did chuckle at the impotency comedy bit at the beginning. Yes, it was juvenile but I was kinda amused. Gabriel and Rowena banging? Why not. 

Though why didn`t Rowena spell Lucifer`s mouth shut? That has to be relatively easy. She knew he was baiting her so do something about it. Again, contrive to get Lucifer in AU-land where he arrives in the nick of time to resurrect Sam.  

Episode could have been much, much worse. Could have been Red Meat 2 or even worse so on that front, I`m relieved. 

The opening dream scene was eye-rolly to me. And it had a hilariously bad moment where Mary thanked Sam for saving her and then, after a really noticeable pause went like "oh, and Dean". That read like "that other guy, can`t remember his name right now". Either the script had that weird overly long pause or that was some sucky line delivery and the director approved it. 

Still, we got the Berens ep out of the way. Thank god.

[Bergamot]

13 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

In the Spoilers thread I commented that despite Sam Smith's interview, I didn't think the group would be Sam Winchester's merry gang, but there were several places in the early part of the journey where he took the lead where Dean normally would, and Dean just nodded his head in the background.  I personally find it weird for Dean to take a step back at times like that without any reason; it's like the writers are just trying to make sure Sam gets some big damn hero moments

I think you can always tell when this was one of the main items on the writers' checklist for an episode; often they try so hard that it comes across as contrived and artificial. One example from this episode was when they first come across one the vampires feeding in the tunnel; Dean is literally standing there over the vampire, when you hear Sam eagerly go "Wait, wait, wait, I got it!" and he comes scampering up from the rear of the group, rushing past everyone to get the kill. It was just silly.

 

Quote

Finally, I keep using 'Mines of Moria' on purpose because that's exactly the feel I think they were going for.

Yeah, I think it was obvious to everyone what they were going for. Of course the show can only wish it had a fraction of the suspense and excitement of that movie sequence. Also, I don't think anyone should have to re-watch it in order to figure out what actually happened, since there was no reason for this to be ambiguous or obscured from the viewer. For example, whether or not Cas saw Sam's body should not be a matter of opinion, but I still could go either way.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Bergamot

[bearcatfan]

25 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I don’t think the show said Moria. I was just responding to SueB calling it that since it did seem very similar to the Mines of Moria!

Truthfully, I had to google Mines of Moria to find out what it was, but then I questioned that maybe I heard it wrong and they had named it that because of the similarities. I’ll rewatch this weekend. 

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Dobian said:

Yeah that was pretty awful.  Dean wouldn't walk out of there letting Sam be vampire food in a million years.  Even if he knew he was dead, he would go in there to retrieve his body and knock Cas over for getting in his way.  Just way out of character.

Dean left Sam's body behind in 11,17.  It was only after the mission was complete and he got the civilians to saftey that he did something.   He only did what he did after the girl gave him the idea. 

Dean knew Sam was dead.  He literally watched Sam get his throat ripped out.   Cas stopped him from going to Sam because he was trying to spare Dean more pain. 

They had a someone to protect, and a mission to complete.  Plus, they were still in a tunnel full of vampires.  They had to get out of there if they wanted any shot of rescusing Mary.  Dean did what he always does.  Buried it, pushed through.  The moment it was practical he said he was going back for Sam.

I don't see anything OOC for Dean here.  Its the exact way he acted in the other ep.