S06.E07: Harvest

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

Stan has figured out that Phillip and Elizabeth are Russian spies. Proof : 

  Reveal hidden contents

Before William died he told Stan that the Russian spies were a married couple and that “She is pretty and HE is lucky”. During his search of the Jennings house, Stan gazed at their family portrait and said “ He is lucky”........

Poor Stan. 

Good for you. That is one of the best catches I've ever seen on this board. You deserve some kind of prize or something. But all I can give you is a hearty ...

WELL DONE!

[Anela]

2 hours ago, jjj said:

Ha!  Glad someone else is still willing to help carry the torch of Renee-suspicion!  And I think we have seen the last of Kimmie.  Hope she takes that Michigan degree into a great career, and I wonder if she will ever learn of her role in the spy business. 

I suspect her, too. The girl who played Kimmie said on instagram, that was the last time she played her. I guess things could still happen offscreen, though.

[Clanstarling]

9 minutes ago, benteen said:

I think his mistake was not personalizing it.  He should have mentioned about Henry's tuition and have told him the whole thing was putting a strain on their marriage.  Stan knows they've had marriage problems before and as pointed out earlier, Stan himself has had marriage problems.  Philip really didn't put up the effort that he should have to sell the story, which indicates that like Elizabeth, he's slipping as a spy or he just doesn't have the energy anymore to sell these stories.

Yes. The best kind of lie - one that's mostly true.

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, benteen said:

I think his mistake was not personalizing it.  He should have mentioned about Henry's tuition and have told him the whole thing was putting a strain on their marriage.  Stan knows they've had marriage problems before and as pointed out earlier, Stan himself has had marriage problems.  Philip really didn't put up the effort that he should have to sell the story, which indicates that like Elizabeth, he's slipping as a spy or he just doesn't have the energy anymore to sell these stories.

I don't see how he's slipping up on anything. It's not like Stan doesn't believe him about the business. He's telling the truth. What he said is far more realistic than him feeling like he has to come up with reasons why he's upset about his business failing. It causing marital problems or Henry losing tuition are the symptoms of the real problem: the business he has built is failing. It's terrible and he's embarrassed. He sold it perfectly. The problem isn't that his story wasn't believable, it was that Stan's suspicions are bigger than that.

It doesn't get more personal than a man saying "The business is falling apart. It's terrible. I'm embarrassed." But if Stan doesn't think that explains how terrible Philip looks, throwing in that he can't pay for Henry's private school isn't going to put it over the top. Neither that nor marital troubles are the same as him going off to die, which is what he's really upset about.

7 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

Good for you. That is one of the best catches I've ever seen on this board. You deserve some kind of prize or something. But all I can give you is a hearty ...

WELL DONE!

It's not a catch. The moment was literally replayed in the episode when Stan was looking at the pictures. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by sistermagpie

[jjj]

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's not a catch. The moment was literally replayed in the episode when Stan was looking at the pictures. 

 

Yes, the showrunners did not expect us to connect the dots, so they literally showed us Stan's mental image at that moment.  I remember Stan got stuck on the "pretty" wife and two children back then, also.  (I miss William, like a poster above!) 

Edited May 11, 2018 by jjj

[MisterBluxom]

6 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

JJJ, I'm also really anxious to find out what Renee's role, if any is.  Will she STOP Stan from going after P & E?  BECAUSE, if she doesn't, then there really is nothing preventing Stan from the very LEAST, discovering that their identities are bogus or sketchy.  Once that is done, he would reveal his suspicions of them being illegals and killers to Aderholt, and then, the cards will fold.  I can't imagine anything that would STOP Stan in his tracks, so that he would not check on P & E further. AND I see no clear way for Henry.  IF P & E run for it, the truth comes out and Henry would be invited to leave the school.  If they are arrested, also invited to leave the school. And, if they are killed (if the reason is make public), he would be invited to leave the school.  So, the only hope for Henry to remain in his school, is if Stan chooses to not explore his parents further OR someone STOPS STAN before he tips off who he's looking at.  

I wonder if P will check in to see if Kimmie made it back from Greece.

The only reason for having Renee that I can think of is so that she can die in a way that will make the finale more exciting.

What if after Stan shares his suspicions about The Jennings with her and tells her the FBI is about to take them down, there is some kind of scuffle and one of The Jennings kills her?

Stan would be enraged and it would make for a highly charged final shoot out.

That would be my best guess as to why Renee was ever included. But I must admit it's probably a very unlikely guess.

[Anela]

9 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

The only reason for having Renee that I can think of is so that she can die in a way that will make the finale more exciting.

What if after Stan shares his suspicions about The Jennings with her and tells her the FBI is about to take them down, there is some kind of scuffle and one of The Jennings kills her?

Stan would be enraged and it would make for a highly charged final shoot out.

That would be my best guess as to why Renee was ever included. But I must admit it's probably a very unlikely guess.

That might be the case, but I'm disappointed that they brought in a known actress, to play a mostly thankless role. She was really focused on Elizabeth, as she spoke to the other agent's wife, it was creepy. And yet we've barely had anything since. either she's Russian, or she's been talking to Stan about something being off with them. I'd prefer to have seen it, if that's the case.

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Yeah, this is why I didn't see it as Elizabeth making any sort of mistake.

 

It was a mistake, not a big one, but one like the Russian stew.  They just don't make those kinds of mistakes as embedded spies.

Will it play out?  I think there is a small chance of that happening, but with so much other easy evidence around?  Probably not.  I think the artist is becoming Elizabeth's EST/FORUM...and we've spent so much time with her, and so little with Elizabeth's mark, the husband?  I think it's significant, but possibly only for Elizabeth's soul.

I have no problem at all with Stan's "AHA!" moment.  I know that's sometimes how things happen.  I've always suspected that it was just going to take the right time, the right thing, a word, the moment to break the dam with Stan.  As soon as that happened?  Whatever it was, all of the rest, things like timing, and "coincidences" would flood together and create the picture clearly. 

Elizabeth and Philip sailed very close to the wind by staying in that house.  It paid off for them in many ways, keeping an eye on a Counter Intelligence FBI agent, and finding an excuse to move could have been problematic, since they'd stay at the same Travel Agency anyway.  Still though, it was always risky. 

Stan's had many troubling things on his mind for a very long time.  His PSTD or reactions and consequences from his long deep cover operation with the White Supremacists.  His partner being killed.  His wife leaving him, then moving herself and his son in with another man.  Nina, the operation, then the love, then the guilt because Gaad wouldn't ex-filtrate her in time, then the near treason from him, her death.  He also moved, started a new job, and murdered Vlad.  He also had several successful operations, and his relationship with Oleg, which payed off big time, but then he scrambled to try to protect him.  He even left CI. 

Now, things have settled down.  He has Renee, he throws dinner parties, he's out of CI and into a more sane job.  His head is cleared.  Suddenly all the events on Thanksgiving started to open that dam of information that was in the back of his mind, but dismissed before.  Philip was his friend, and his wife had mocked him for suspecting the neighbors, told him to come back down to earth, he wasn't undercover now.  The moment for Stan was when Philip hugged him.  Bingo. He's begun his investigation now.  He won't give up until it's done.  He never has before.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Umbelina

[anonymiss]

4 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Not trying to pick your comment apart, but it cracks me up that in the U.S. any young white girl is always “pretty” whether she is or not. Double points if average looking young white girl has blonde hair. The word means almost nothing now.  IMHO, Paige is quite average in all respects including appearance. And Holly Taylor is a piss poor actress period. As has been pointed out, an actress with a moderate skill level could compensate for poor character development. She cannot.

 

I don't think that "any average young white girl is pretty." Paige is above average even with the awful styling. I didn't say gorgeous but she is pretty and has no reason to be the friendless outcast she's been. Holly Taylor when she styles herself looks like a print model. She's not my taste but I think objectively any agency would agree. 

She has no Otherness to explain why she has no social life. It's a classic case of bad storytelling where we are told it is so without showing it.

Edited May 11, 2018 by anonymiss

[jjj]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

  I think the artist is becoming Elizabeth's EST/FORUM...and we've spent so much time with her, and so little with Elizabeth's mark, the husband?  I think it's significant, but possibly only for Elizabeth's soul.

I have no problem at all with Stan's "AHA!" moment.  I know that's sometimes how things happen.  I've always suspected that it was just going to take the right time, the right thing, a word, the moment to break the dam with Stan.  As soon as that happened?  Whatever it was, all of the rest, things like timing, and "coincidences" would flood together and create the picture clearly. 

Elizabeth and Philip sailed very close to the wind by staying in that house.  It paid off for them in many ways, keeping an eye on a Counter Intelligence FBI agent, and finding an excuse to move could have been problematic, since they'd stay at the same Travel Agency anyway.  Still though, it was always risky. 

That is a very good point, about the Jennings remaining in that house next to Stan.  Whatever intelligence they thought they might pick up from him was so very outweighed by the risk of his observation of their comings and goings.  And especially after that first night, when he broke into their garage and Philip stood ready to kill Stan in the dark -- that should have convinced them immediately that it was too risky to live next to the FBI.  But hey, if they moved, we would not have the series! 

I posted an article about the role of the artist vis-à-vis Elizabeth in the Media thread in the week this season started, and yes, the artist is definitely there to open up Elizabeth.  It has been subtle, but she has come a long way to understanding the paintings and drawings, and connections of soul and art, in a way she did not two months ago (in show time). 

Edited May 11, 2018 by jjj

[dubbel zout]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I have no problem at all with Stan's "AHA!" moment.  I know that's sometimes how things happen.  I've always suspected that it was just going to take the right time, the right thing, a word, the moment to break the dam with Stan.  As soon as that happened?  Whatever it was, all of the rest, things like timing, and "coincidences" would flood together and create the picture clearly. 

It's like not being able to finish a crossword puzzle all in one try, and after you've taken an hour break (or whatever), you come back and the answers are obvious. 

Plus, as we've said endlessly, had Stan figured things out any earlier, there would be no more show.

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Will it play out?  I think there is a small chance of that happening, but with so much other easy evidence around?  Probably not.  I think the artist is becoming Elizabeth's EST/FORUM...and we've spent so much time with her, and so little with Elizabeth's mark, the husband?  I think it's significant, but possibly only for Elizabeth's soul.

 

Yes, I think the fact that she brought it to her is significant. Elizabeth would know beforehand that it's not he best picture to share spycraft-wise--I'm sure she didn't hand it to her and then suddenly realize she needed a cover story. She wanted Erika to see that picture. She felt good about it or somehow thought it was special. She probably had no idea why the picture pleased her and she wanted Erika to see it. Probably significant that it happened after Philip made this sacrifice for her. He was sitting by the window too, although of course she left him out of the picture.

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Now, things have settled down.  He has Renee, he throws dinner parties, he's out of CI and into a more sane job.

Yes, Stan doesn't need the Jennings the way he did before, psychologically. I don't mean that in a mercenary way, but I think there were times in the past where it would have been way harder for Stan to believe ill of the Jennings because he depended on them so much.

With all the talk, not just here but elsewhere, about Stan adopting Henry or whatever, it seems important that Stan interrogated him here. As I've said, one thing I don't like about that situation is it seems to suggest the Stan/Henry stuff is laid out to give Henry a soft landing or something when to me it seems like that should be another casualty of the revelation.

There's just not been much talk about how Stan really is interrogating Henry there. I do think he starts out asking him about his friends to lull him into a question-answering mode where it seems like he's just interested in everybody's parents when really he's tricking the kid into answering questions as part of a hunt for his parents. He's not being the "good dad" compared to Philip in that scene, he's being an FBI agent using his relationship to Henry to gather info about a crime. If they are who Stan is suspecting they are (and they are!) they are Stan's enemy. He "means them harm." He's not Pastor Tim who would put preserving Henry's family above the crime. He's not acting guilty about doing it. 

That's another reason why when Henry in the end says that you have to be there for your family it seems a little...not ominous maybe, but it sort of underlines that however Henry is complaining here and however many movies he's watched with Stan, this is his family that's going to be destroyed and not Stan's.

[Umbelina]

Oh that was definitely an interrogation, I agree.  It was well done, Stan's good, and he knows and cares about this kid.

Philip gave him the perfect excuse for it. "Hey could you drive my kid to his friend's house so the mom can drive Henry back to school too?"

That was a bit contrived though, but I'm letting it go.  WHERE WAS PAIGE?  Why couldn't Paige stay with Henry and then drive him back to school?  Henry didn't need Mrs. Beeman to feed him either, I'm certain he could warm up leftovers on his own, or make a sandwich or eggs.  Paige knew about Chicago, no details, but she knew her mom was leaving.  Why didn't either parent say, "Paige, get your ass over here and keep your brother company, and then drive him back to school."  Why didn't Paige want to spend a little more time with her brother anyway?

Come on showrunners, it would have been so easy to make up an excuse for Paige, one passing comment.  Or wait, maybe it wouldn't be "easy" since there is absolutely no logical reason to turn to Stan when they had Paige available.  Zip.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Umbelina

[margol29]

1 hour ago, MissBluxom said:

Stan has figured out that Phillip and Elizabeth are Russian spies. Proof : 

  Hide contents

Before William died he told Stan that the Russian spies were a married couple and that “She is pretty and HE is lucky”. During his search of the Jennings house, Stan gazed at their family portrait and said “ He is lucky”........

Poor Stan. 

Which brings up the pictures that Stan looked at when he first broke into P & E's house. I don't remember but if E was wearing that necklace that Martha left behind, Stan might remember that after going over the old files. 

[Umbelina]

It's a gold heart necklace.  I'd make a wild guess that at least 50% of women have had a gold heart necklace at one time or another.  Paige's cross necklace may be more significant.  Stan noticed that, and realized suddenly that Paige isn't blabbering on about Christianity and her faith anymore.

I seriously doubt the heart necklace will play into anything, there is SO much other evidence, and Clark/Phlip's finger print closes the case anyway.  Their faked birth certificates also close the case. 

ETA

People keep talking about Elizabeth's gun shot scar in her stomach, but there is no way Stan could be sure either of them were shot in that car.  They couldn't see inside the car, hell, even Philip who was inside the car didn't know she'd been shot.  I don't think that plays into things either.

Aunt Helen?  Does.  That's the place Paige will start to sweat and give herself away, and it's another person who simply doesn't exist.

They have SO much, now they just have to gather it up. 

By the way, I'm so glad all of this didn't happen in the penultimate episode, because that means we may get to see the aftermath play out more.  There is a lot of time left for that now.  Relatively that is.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Umbelina

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, but, there really was a lady there named Aunt Helen, but, she may not hold up, since Page would know little about her and she's probably long gone now. 

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, but, there really was a lady there named Aunt Helen, but, she may not hold up, since Page would know little about her and she's probably long gone now. 

She wasn't Elizabeth's aunt.  Her name wasn't Helen.  She was KGB.  That was a safe house, and probably long ago abandoned.  Will Stan ask about it's location?  Maybe.  They will probably find the utility bills were paid in advance there if he does.

The woman Elizabeth actually stayed with was murdered.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Umbelina

[SunnyBeBe]

Just now, Umbelina said:

She wasn't Elizabeth's aunt.  Her name wasn't Helen.  That was a safe house, and probably long ago abandoned.

I'm referring to the old lady that Paige sneaked off and found when she went looking for an aunt Helen and found a woman in a house with old stuff and admitted she knew Elizabeth. 

[Umbelina]

Just now, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm referring to the old lady that Paige sneaked off and found when she went looking for an aunt Helen and found a woman in a house with old stuff and admitted she knew Elizabeth. 

KGB.

Otherwise, why would she call Philip and tell him that Paige had visited?

[JennyMominFL]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She wasn't Elizabeth's aunt.  Her name wasn't Helen.  She was KGB.  That was a safe house, and probably long ago abandoned.  Will Stan ask about it's location?  Maybe.  They will probably find the utility bills were paid in advance there if he does.

The woman Elizabeth actually stayed with was murdered.

Can you refresh my memory on this murder? I don't remember which one it was.

[SunnyBeBe]

Yes, I realize that she was one of them, but, that she did exist, even though she was playing a part. 

[sistermagpie]

41 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

That was a bit contrived though, but I'm letting it go.  WHERE WAS PAIGE?  Why couldn't Paige stay with Henry and then drive him back to school?  Henry didn't need Mrs. Beeman to feed him either, I'm certain he could warm up leftovers on his own, or make a sandwich or eggs.  Paige knew about Chicago, no details, but she knew her mom was leaving.  Why didn't either parent say, "Paige, get your ass over here and keep your brother company, and then drive him back to school."  Why didn't Paige want to spend a little more time with her brother anyway?

 

Definitely--and Paige wasn't even "working" with Mom since Mom and Dad were in Chicago. 

Symbolically, though, it makes sense. It's another way the family's split makes them vulnerable. It shows that Elizabeth and Paige consider Henry "Philip's department." Also Philip asks Stan to do those things because he feels guilty, probably. As he says, Stan's leftovers are better than frozen pizzas. He's thinking about Henry feeling alone. Paige, obviously, doesn't think about that at all. She wanted to abandon Thanksgiving too to be with Mom. Neither Elizabeth nor Paige were thinking about Henry as a spy threat, and neither of them think about him as a person otherwise. 

I'd have to watch again, too, but I felt like in the moment where Philip came home and wanted to shower or whatever there was some tension between P&E and Henry looked over at Paige but Paige didn't react to him. I'd have to watch it again to be sure, though. The two of them are working together on whatever but not speaking.

29 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It's a gold heart necklace.  I'd make a wild guess that at least 50% of women have had a gold heart necklace at one time or another.  Paige's cross necklace may be more significant.  Stan noticed that, and realized suddenly that Paige isn't blabbering on about Christianity and her faith anymore.

 

Yup, and even apart from knowing that she dropped that phase (which tbf teenagers do all the time) he'd maybe remember her getting so into it or whatever. He also witnessed her being upset when she was at his house etc., and knew her Pastor was arrested. He might wonder if he's a Soviet sympathizer. Maybe P&E encouraged that. (Of course he's not wrong there--Pastor Tim totally covered for them.)

29 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

People keep talking about Elizabeth's gun shot scar in her stomach, but there is no way Stan could be sure either of them were shot in that car.  They couldn't see inside the car, hell, even Philip who was inside the car didn't know she'd been shot.  I don't think that plays into things either.

 

He had no way to be sure but he did think it was true enough that he checked Leanne. So if he was able to check and find the scar, he'd know where it came from. But that might be during an autopsy!

16 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She wasn't Elizabeth's aunt.  Her name wasn't Helen.  That was a safe house, and probably long ago abandoned.

Which would maybe be okay since she was already old.

But if Paige hasn't been given a clear story to stick to regarding her it could be a problem. She might try to lie on her own or deny it too much. Who knows? Plus Stan might check for an actual woman and we don't know how deep that cover ran. The home did have pictures of Elizabeth in it so they did put some effort into it.

Btw, remember how good Jared was at this? He was only 16. Granted we never saw him doing surveillance or whatever but he had exactly the attitude Paige lacked. (Of course, his rage was also more murderous and destructive...)

13 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

Can you refresh my memory on this murder? I don't remember which one it was.

I believe they're referring to the woman whose house we saw Elizabeth leave after her recovery from the gunshot wound. They returned there at the end of the season with Jared and Larrick killed her.

Edited May 11, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

Can you refresh my memory on this murder? I don't remember which one it was.

It was the Larrick and fellow spies story, when the son killed his parents and sister.

Larrick killed the woman Elizabeth had recovered with, kidnapped Philip and put him in the trunk, and then captured Elizabeth.

Larrick used the son as bait to lure out Philip and Elizabeth.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Umbelina

[Anela]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

It was a mistake, not a big one, but one like the Russian stew.  They just don't make those kinds of mistakes as embedded spies.

Will it play out?  I think there is a small chance of that happening, but with so much other easy evidence around?  Probably not.  I think the artist is becoming Elizabeth's EST/FORUM...and we've spent so much time with her, and so little with Elizabeth's mark, the husband?  I think it's significant, but possibly only for Elizabeth's soul.

I have no problem at all with Stan's "AHA!" moment.  I know that's sometimes how things happen.  I've always suspected that it was just going to take the right time, the right thing, a word, the moment to break the dam with Stan.  As soon as that happened?  Whatever it was, all of the rest, things like timing, and "coincidences" would flood together and create the picture clearly. 

Elizabeth and Philip sailed very close to the wind by staying in that house.  It paid off for them in many ways, keeping an eye on a Counter Intelligence FBI agent, and finding an excuse to move could have been problematic, since they'd stay at the same Travel Agency anyway.  Still though, it was always risky. 

Stan's had many troubling things on his mind for a very long time.  His PSTD or reactions and consequences from his long deep cover operation with the White Supremacists.  His partner being killed.  His wife leaving him, then moving herself and his son in with another man.  Nina, the operation, then the love, then the guilt because Gaad wouldn't ex-filtrate her in time, then the near treason from him, her death.  He also had several successful operations, and his relationship with Oleg, which payed off big time, but then he scrambled to try to protect him.  He even left CI. 

Now, things have settled down.  He has Renee, he throws dinner parties, he's out of CI and into a more sane job.  His head is cleared.  Suddenly all the events on Thanksgiving started to open that dam of information that was in the back of his mind, but dismissed before.  Philip was his friend, and his wife had mocked him for suspecting the neighbors, told him to come back down to earth, he wasn't undercover now.  The moment for Stan was when Philip hugged him.  Bingo. He's begun his investigation now.  He won't give up until it's done.  He never has before.

This is what I thought, too (everything that was on his mind, and now he's happy and clear-headed). Why would he connect it to the hug, though?

[JennyMominFL]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

It was the Larrick and fellow spies story, when the son killed his parents and sister.

Larrick killed the woman Elizabeth had recovered with, kidnapped Philip and put him in the truck, and then captured Elizabeth.

Larrick used the son as bait to lure out Philip and Elizabeth.

Right, I remember. I've been rewatching the show and Im on episode one of season 2.  Details of season 2-3 are hazy

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Anela said:

This is what I thought, too (everything that was on his mind, and now he's happy and clear-headed). Why would he connect it to the hug, though?

Maybe because Philip is not a huggy guy, and never did that before.  Maybe because Stan was undercover himself, and knew "you say what they want to hear, do what it takes to make them sure of you." 

Whatever the reason, if you watch the scene again?  That's the moment when Stan knows something is way off here.  Stan has good gut feelings, when he allows them.  The moment he knew Zenaida was "bad" he was just watching her on TV, parroting "the things they want to hear" and it was similar when he suspected Martha, "something was off" about her demeanor.

When you are in tune that way, and I think many people have that gift but few listen to that gut feeling, things can become clear in an instant.  "This (whatever it is) is OFF." 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Maybe because Philip is not a huggy guy, and never did that before.  Maybe because Stan was undercover himself, and knew "you say what they want to hear, do what it takes to make them sure of you." 

Whatever the reason, if you watch the scene again?  That's the moment when Stan knows something is way off here.

Yup, I definitely saw that too. Which could be Stan thinking Philip's going OTT. Or also it could be Stan seeing exactly what he really is seeing--Philip has a big emotion towards him he's expressing here for some reason even though there's nothing in the situation to warrant it. Philip is saying good-bye because he knows that there's an ending here. Maybe he'll die in Chicago. Maybe Elizabeth will. Maybe they'll be outed. Maybe they'll survive a bit more. But he's about to go back into spying and that means the end of him. He couldn't express it with Henry. Now Stan has followed him out because he picked up on the emotion and Philip takes that moment. Stan still feels, for good reason, that there's something Philip isn't telling him. And the hug implies that maybe that something has to do with Stan. It's a pre-apology as well.

It's maybe a little like Elizabeth showing her window picture to Erika. She needs something for herself in that moment. She and Philip are not acting as their covers in that moment. Fitting since later Harvest will get his final moment as himself with Philip.

Edited May 11, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yup, I definitely saw that too. Which could be Stan thinking Philip's going OTT. Or also it could be Stan seeing exactly what he really is seeing--Philip has a big emotion towards him he's expressing here for some reason even though there's nothing in the situation to warrant it. Philip is saying good-bye because he knows that there's an ending here. Maybe he'll die in Chicago. Maybe Elizabeth will. Maybe they'll be outed. Maybe they'll survive a bit more. But he's about to go back into spying and that means the end of him. He couldn't express it with Henry. Now Stan has followed him out because he picked up on the emotion and Philip takes that moment. Stan still feels, for good reason, that there's something Philip isn't telling him. And the hug implies that maybe that something has to do with Stan. It's a pre-apology as well.

It's maybe a little like Elizabeth showing her window picture to Erika. She needs something for herself in that moment.

Exactly! 

How did I miss that?

Philip did expect to die here, and part of him, the part that turned his back on spying?  Has already died.

Philip was saying goodbye, and possibly even saying "this was real in many ways, you are my friend, as much as I could be." Because if Philip did die in Chicago, or the dangerous operation that had his wife scared went bad?  Stan would know he was KGB.  Philip wanted Stan to know it wasn't all fake, he did care for him.

That much emotion is sensed, at the very least, it was too much for a failing business.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Umbelina

[jjj]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yup, I definitely saw that too. Which could be Stan thinking Philip's going OTT. Or also it could be Stan seeing exactly what he really is seeing--Philip has a big emotion towards him he's expressing here for some reason even though there's nothing in the situation to warrant it. Philip is saying good-bye because he knows that there's an ending here. Maybe he'll die in Chicago. Maybe Elizabeth will. Maybe they'll be outed. Maybe they'll survive a bit more.

It occurs to me that if Elizabeth or Philip had been killed or captured in Chicago (or any of a number of places), whoever is left would be immediately taken into custody by the FBI, once Stan saw the pictures.  And Henry would definitely be left out of any escape plan, plus Paige, nowadays, because of her living in the district.  (You would think they would have provided Paige with an escape plan, given what she knows and what a liability she could be.)  I always got the sense that they were poised for immediate departure with the children at some points of the story in the past, but that would be impossible now.  Poor Henry, I think this will be such a bumpy ride.  (If you have never seen "Running on Empty", that would be a great way to pass the time waiting for these final episodes.  Not spies, but former counterculture activists living underground in plain view and ready to leave on a moment's notice with children.  It really deals with the everyday details of creating new identities, and the suspense.  A favorite film.) 

[JennyMominFL]

I feel like this will end with Stan and Phillip and one will kill the other. I don't know which one is which

[TaurusRose]

2 hours ago, Anela said:

I think she's pretty. I'm glad the word isn't saved for supermodels. 

It’s not. There are plenty of pretty women in my town who aren’t models or actresses. 

1 hour ago, anonymiss said:

I don't think that "any average young white girl is pretty." Paige is above average even with the awful styling. I didn't say gorgeous but she is pretty and has no reason to be the friendless outcast she's been. Holly Taylor when she styles herself looks like a print model. She's not my taste but I think objectively any agency would agree. 

She has no Otherness to explain why she has no social life. It's a classic case of bad storytelling where we are told it is so without showing it.

The use of the word “otherness” is offensive to me as beauty is not limited to white skin or any particular ethnicity. As for Paige she isn’t anything special to me.  I find her sad, misguided and pathetic for many of the reasons posted more eloquently by others. 

[Anela]

26 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Maybe because Philip is not a huggy guy, and never did that before.  Maybe because Stan was undercover himself, and knew "you say what they want to hear, do what it takes to make them sure of you." 

Whatever the reason, if you watch the scene again?  That's the moment when Stan knows something is way off here.  Stan has good gut feelings, when he allows them.  The moment he knew Zenaida was "bad" he was just watching her on TV, parroting "the things they want to hear" and it was similar when he suspected Martha, "something was off" about her demeanor.

When you are in tune that way, and I think many people have that gift but few listen to that gut feeling, things can become clear in an instant.  "This (whatever it is) is OFF." 

I am in tune that way, much of the time. I was thinking about him noticing Philip's demeanour when he talked about the Russians in his care, being murdered, as well. 

[Lily H]

So many people piling on Henry for being a "brat". I think he's acting like any normal teenager would act in the circumstances. Teenagers ARE often bratty, and selfish, and wrapped up in their own feelings to the exclusion of others'. That's pretty much what teenagers are all about. He might also be seeing his new friends' relationships with their parents, and finding his own wanting. And who can blame him? Philip does try, but Elizabeth is distant and not much of a loving mother.

[anonymiss]

8 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

It’s not. There are plenty of pretty women in my town who aren’t models or actresses. 

The use of the word “otherness” is offensive to me as beauty is not limited to white skin or any particular ethnicity. As for Paige she isn’t anything special to me.  I find her sad, misguided and pathetic for many of the reasons posted more eloquently by others. 

I don't believe and never said beauty and whiteness are linked. As a poc myself I'm surprised by this misunderstanding. The point is whiteness and belonging are linked and pretty and belonging are linked. I didn't think that needed to be explicitly stated but apparently it does.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, anonymiss said:

I don't believe and never said beauty and whiteness are linked. As a poc myself I'm surprised by this misunderstanding. The point is whiteness and belonging are linked and pretty and belonging are linked. I didn't think that needed to be explicitly stated but apparently it does.

Paige also has a specific kind of look that's appealing to many. It's what a friend of mine used to call "high school pretty." Very non-threatening. Also vulnerable looking. Long hair. Big Bambi eyes. Big smile. Petite but not boyish. 

And the show confirms this in that Paige seems to attract boys all the time. Off the top of my head we've got the creepers at the mall and the the guy Henry hit. The mugger seemed particularly amused by mugging her. There was a kid in the church group who seemed to like her in one tiny moment (Pastor Tim seemed to have them work together hoping to put them together), Matthew Beeman once she got older, Brian the intern, Vince in the bar, the sailor.

The show never seems to be saying she's a knockout like Elizabeth or particularly seductive. But I totally believe that lots of guys think she's very pretty. In fact I'd bet that gives her the impression that spying is easy. As she said to Elizabeth, Brian just offered to show her secret documents. Mostly Paige just has to smile and laugh and be impressed. The one actual back and forth she had was with Matthew but I admit it seemed to me that even there there wasn't a particular meeting of the minds even though they did connect on the parent issue. I think he was trying to make that work more than it actually clicking.

She doesn't seem to attract people as friends, though. Even in the scene where she's with girls at first in the bar it seems fitting that they leave without her while saying, "He's cute" about Vince, like they know they're leaving her there to hook up. I know that happens just so the scene they want can take place but I also think it's much easier writing Paige reacting to a guy trying to chat her up than Paige interacting with girlfriends. Kelly on the bus zeroed in on her as a convert, gave her her spiel and handed her over to Pastor Tim.

That's another thing that makes her talk about hoping to meet someone like her mom did sad. Her mom might be crazy at times, but she has a very strong personality that believably inspires people to react to her personally. She's beautiful, but that's not the dominant thing about her when you actually know her. It's tragic to think of Paige trying to be her in the exact opposite way: Elizabeth *wanted* (she thought) to be alone and sacrificing it all for the cause. Philip loved her enough to break through that. Paige is openly saying that she's doing the job and her biggest fear is never finding someone like that.

It reminds me of a talk show I saw years ago where there was a woman who really wanted to marry a certain kind of man, but she was very obviously not the kind of person who that man would click with. The man was basically a guy like her father, who loved her very much--but as a daughter. And it seemed he'd tried to explain this to her. 

Paige is in many ways like Elizabeth but I think the same is true here. Philip adores her as a daughter. He'd probably have been protective of her if he'd met her as a person. But he probably wouldn't have fallen in love with her. She'd be Martha, not Elizabeth, even if she was spying and could hit people.

[anonymiss]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Paige also has a specific kind of look that's appealing to many. It's what a friend of mine used to call "high school pretty." Very non-threatening. Also vulnerable looking. Long hair. Big Bambi eyes. Big smile. Petite but not boyish. 

And the show confirms this in that Paige seems to attract boys all the time. Off the top of my head we've got the creepers at the mall and the the guy Henry hit. The mugger seemed particularly amused by mugging her. There was a kid in the church group who seemed to like her in one tiny moment (Pastor Tim seemed to have them work together hoping to put them together), Matthew Beeman once she got older, Brian the intern, Vince in the bar, the sailor.

The show never seems to be saying she's a knockout like Elizabeth or particularly seductive. But I totally believe that lots of guys think she's very pretty. In fact I'd bet that gives her the impression that spying is easy. As she said to Elizabeth, Brian just offered to show her secret documents. Mostly Paige just has to smile and laugh and be impressed. The one actual back and forth she had was with Matthew but I admit it seemed to me that even there there wasn't a particular meeting of the minds even though they did connect on the parent issue. I think he was trying to make that work more than it actually clicking.

She doesn't seem to attract people as friends, though.

It's harder to make friends in adulthood but very natural in childhood, yet what is incredulous to me is she's never shown to have had any ever. Any socialization has been for work like church volunteering. She never was shown using that phone in her bedroom to talk to anyone but Pastor Tim and (unsuccessfully) eavesdrop on her parents. They never took the time to flesh her out into a whole believable character so she is just a one-dimensional plot device. 

[jjj]

I think this is the first time we have heard Henry express an awareness that Elizabeth does not pay much attention to him (over time, not just on this holiday).  It is not completely out of the blue, but more articulated than it has ever been. 

They really did sometimes just leave both children (Paige as early teenager, so mildly responsible) alone at night in the earlier seasons, right?  I was not on boards in those seasons, but remember having some concerns about that when I watched the first three seasons all at once. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by jjj

[CaliCheeseSucks]

3 hours ago, jjj said:

Yes, the showrunners did not expect us to connect the dots, so they literally showed us Stan's mental image at that moment.  I remember Stan got stuck on the "pretty" wife and two children back then, also.  (I miss William, like a poster above!) 

 

That's why I find it amusing when the showrunners are given credit for "trusting" the audience to intuit things without having to show them; the show has literally been bogged down by dragging out the minutiae of showing almost everything. (Think back to Oleg deciphering Philip's note a week ago - we really didn't need to watch the step-by-step of that, but for some reason, that's where the showrunners repeatedly decide to invest time, utilitarian-ness be damned.) Now they have a handful of episodes left and it's like, "Huh, guess we shoulda started laying the breadcrumbs of Stan piecing it together at warp speed." 

The figurative lightbulb over Stan's head in this episode doesn't feel at all earned, just a function of realizing they literally have run out of time to get him on this path.

Edited May 11, 2018 by CaliCheeseSucks

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, anonymiss said:

I don't think that "any average young white girl is pretty." Paige is above average even with the awful styling. I didn't say gorgeous but she is pretty and has no reason to be the friendless outcast she's been. Holly Taylor when she styles herself looks like a print model. She's not my taste but I think objectively any agency would agree. 

She has no Otherness to explain why she has no social life. It's a classic case of bad storytelling where we are told it is so without showing it.

Well, they've certainly showed her as being more than a  little sanctimonious for most of the show - that can put a damper on a social life. Then again, not everyone who is attractive has friends - because they themselves aren't particularly receptive.

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

When you are in tune that way, and I think many people have that gift but few listen to that gut feeling, things can become clear in an instant.  "This (whatever it is) is OFF." 

Agreed. I was part of a group interview to hire someone who would work with our children (in a church). Everyone loved this guy. I could not put my finger on it, but I felt like something was off. A person from the higher level said that if we didn't hire him, he would, because he was just that great. When they went around the table there were nothing but praises. When they got to me, I was nervous, because I didn't have any good reason for what I was feeling. So I just said "I don't know why, but if he's hired, my kids are never going to be alone with him." They offered him the job, but something came up in the background check. That's when I learned to trust my gut.

[Umbelina]

It feels earned to me.  Philip was emotional, and essentially saying "goodbye" to Stan.  Stan sensed it, and it triggered the rest.

[AllyB]

I haven't read back through the entire thread so I don't know if this has come up. But have we seen P&E in a disguise that shows them to be a completely different age before? I can't really remember it if they have. So I have the feeling that in some way, the disguises that they wore on the plane home from Chicago were the writers way of showing a glimpse of a future that will never be. Philip and Elizabeth are never going to be that retired couple, so for just a few minutes we got to see what those golden years could have looked like. 

[SoMuchTV]

22 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

I have a question for the Russian speakers in this group.  "Harvest" was the only character on the show whose first language was Russian and he spoke English without any accent.  Characters like Oleg, Tatiana, Arkady, etc.  are native Russian speakers but they have accents.  It sounds like the actor who played Harvest is a native English speaker who learned Russian at one point.  Can anyone comment on how good (or not) his Russian is?

Also, what song was playing when Elizabeth threw that duffle bag into the water?  It was pretty.

I'm just catching up on the last few pages (and I'm not a Russian speaker or a linguistics expert of any kind),  but I didn't see if anyone else pointed out that Philip and Elizabeth are also people whose first language is Russian but speak American English without any accent.  Seems kind of implausible until you hear Matthew Rhys speak in his "normal" accent.  So I guess it's totally possible that someone could do that.

[SoMuchTV]

5 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

Good for you. That is one of the best catches I've ever seen on this board. You deserve some kind of prize or something. But all I can give you is a hearty ...

WELL DONE!

Ouch.  I read this board a lot but don't post much. Maybe because I'm afraid I missed something that's obvious to "everyone" else.

[millennium]

On 5/9/2018 at 11:39 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

 

Poor Sad Philip...this was it for him. The first thing he did when walking thru the door was call Henry (for the final time?) only to get blown off. There is nothing good left in his life. I am dreading what he does next. Philip is just a ruined man. MR conveys it in every scene; he is a remarkable actor.

 

 

Despite all his terrible deeds, failing as Henry's father feels like the greatest of Philip's crimes.   When he had to break the news that he could no longer afford the tuition ... that was harder to watch than him hacking off Marilyn's hands and head.    Now his marriage is toast, he's alienated from his daughter, his business is going belly-up and his son regards him as Willy Loman.   Philip always yearned for the American dream, but in the end all he's reaped is every man's nightmare.  

Paige.  What a fucking idiot.

Oh, Elizabeth.  I hope you get everything you so richly deserve.

Edited May 12, 2018 by millennium

[Clanstarling]

27 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Ouch.  I read this board a lot but don't post much. Maybe because I'm afraid I missed something that's obvious to "everyone" else.

Lots of people miss stuff. Lots disagree. Some get heated, some are laid back. Don't let it stop you from joining in. The more the merrier (well, for the next two episodes, at least).

[TaurusRose]

3 hours ago, anonymiss said:

I don't believe and never said beauty and whiteness are linked. As a poc myself I'm surprised by this misunderstanding. The point is whiteness and belonging are linked and pretty and belonging are linked. I didn't think that needed to be explicitly stated but apparently it does.

Well you shouldn’t be. The use of the word “otherness” in a multicultural, multiracial 21st century world is tone deaf.

[Darrenbrett]

After an earlier episode I wrote this:

Quote

3.) For me, the payoff with Stan is somewhat lessened by the fact that he's not in counter-espionage anymore. I would rather have had him directly involved in the slow building of the investigation into the illegals overt the last 3 years. But, beyond that, more than anything, what I REALLY want in one of the remaining episodes is a moment when Stan's intimate knowledge of P and E makes something click for him; in a way it wouldn't/doesn't click for Aderholt or anyone else on the team. And I want him to reflect on how his actions impacted Nina when it comes to his decision about what he's going to do about P and E. That would show character growth/complexity that would be compelling.

Okay, in this episode we got pretty much exactly that: Lightbulbs finally going off for Stan based on his interaction with the Jennings, combined with his knowledge of the history of the "illegals" investigation.

Although, I have to say, him noticing them coming home at 3 in the morning fairly regularly was a red flag just a little too far. That seems decidedly atypical behavior, especially for travel agents. It's hard to keep that air of believability with that plot point. I mean, if P & E are going to choose to continue to live next door to an agent in counter-intelligence (already a very iffy endeavor), the least -- and I mean THE VERY LEAST - you'd expect is that they'd do everything possible to NOT stand out. Coming home at 3am frequently definitely isn't that.

[MisterBluxom]

52 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Ouch.  I read this board a lot but don't post much. Maybe because I'm afraid I missed something that's obvious to "everyone" else.

There is no reason for you to feel bad at all. Everything else I want to say is probably just a load of crap. But please keep this one thing in mind.

You have just as much right to post whatever you like (within the rules) as anyone else. There can be much false bravdo here just like anywhere else so please post what you want and enjoy yourself.

[Darrenbrett]

6 hours ago, benteen said:

I think his mistake was not personalizing it more.  He should have mentioned about Henry's tuition and have told him the whole thing was putting a strain on his marriage with Elizabeth.  Stan knows they've had marriage problems before and as pointed out earlier, Stan himself has had marriage problems.  Philip really didn't put up the effort that he should have to sell the story, which indicates that like Elizabeth, he's slipping as a spy or he just doesn't have the energy anymore to sell these stories.

 

Totally agree. Philip can sell a story like there's no tomorrow. He definitely didn't do that here. I mean, when your FBI friend says "I can tell you're not telling me something" you better make damn sure you tell a story that he buys before you hug it out and head home for the night. I mean, come on. Philip's slipping because he's so conflicted. But there his survival instincts should have kicked in.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Darrenbrett

[MisterBluxom]

35 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Lots of people miss stuff. Lots disagree. Some get heated, some are laid back. Don't let it stop you from joining in. The more the merrier (well, for the next two episodes, at least).

Well said Starling.

You have just given me the courage to tell you something that I've been wanting to say to you for a few years now.

I keep getting you mixed up with "SisterMagpie" because the picture icons you both use are kind of similar and you are both named after birds. I've always wondered if you are really both the same person because I have never been able to keep the two of you straight and I've always wanted to tell you that. It's not a problem for me. It just gets me to felling like a dope.

Edited May 12, 2018 by MissBluxom