S06.E07: Harvest

[misstwpherecool]

3 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I think that Renee will be an unwitting "lightbulb" for Philip and/or Elizabeth to realize the FBI is on to them. Just like Henry was for Stan. She'll say something about how she was at the FBI for an interview and saw a file with Elizabeth's name on it and thought how crazy that was that there's a criminal out there with the same name! Something that makes Stan wince and Philip and/or Elizabeth act super normal and leave as quickly and normally as possible from wherever they are with Stan and Renee and then finally, finally, have to get out of town. Do they make it? Stan will be 100% watching them. Do they kill him? 

IDK, it seems like it would be a good parallel for the "innocent" party to be the one who spills the beans. To make the parallel even better, she does it when Stan isn't even there. 

I really don't understand what the writers intended with Renee. 

That's go me worried now for 'poor' Renee. Since she expressed interest in becoming an agent now one would have to wonder does she want to prove to herself and others she could do the job and/or contribute.

[BingeyKohan]

4 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

Dang it all! I'm just getting more and more angry. I would have loved to have seen a full season of the Jennings coming to terms with the inevitable. With only 3 episodes remaining, it seems like we won't ever get any emotional satisfaction.

So true. Since the Stan/Dennis 'it's going to happen fast' convo I've felt THAT should have been last season's finale. Or Harvest should have been. Then we'd have all this season to see the fallout.

[MisterBluxom]

4 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I think that Renee will be an unwitting "lightbulb" for Philip and/or Elizabeth to realize the FBI is on to them. Just like Henry was for Stan. She'll say something about how she was at the FBI for an interview and saw a file with Elizabeth's name on it and thought how crazy that was that there's a criminal out there with the same name! Something that makes Stan wince and Philip and/or Elizabeth act super normal and leave as quickly and normally as possible from wherever they are with Stan and Renee and then finally, finally, have to get out of town. Do they make it? Stan will be 100% watching them. Do they kill him? 

IDK, it seems like it would be a good parallel for the "innocent" party to be the one who spills the beans. To make the parallel even better, she does it when Stan isn't even there. 

I really don't understand what the writers intended with Renee. 

I wonder if maybe Renee may have some distant relatives in Canada and if she might just fit the Jennings into her huge vehicle and smuggle them out of the USA and into safety in Canada. That would be one explanation for spending the time to make sure we all know she has this big dinosaur vehicle.

I would guess many of you won't like that idea very much. But I would love to have Elizabeth as a neighbor. Just so long as I get a warning to never say anything bad about the USSR or Communism. That would not be such a good idea.  But Elizabeth would make for a lovely neighbor.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I actually thought it was interesting that he doesn't check Henry's room all that thoroughly. He went into Paige's room and poked around at her jewelry, but when he got to Henry's he just peeked in briefly, ignoring the shelf full of books and other conspicuous points of interest, and quickly moved on.

I agree that the visit was more about settling his thoughts than conducting an actual search for clues, but I'm not sure even Stan knew whether the goal was to alleviate his concerns or validate them. "You don't know what you see, unt-- You need to bring yourself into it. You don't, what is the point? But if you do, you do, there's a moment when it's not you seeing it, it's-- I don't know, it's-- Something come-- Something comes through."

But if it's prophetic, she would end up alone, not dead, right? When I read this bit from Bannon earlier in the thread . . .

. . . I realized that this sort of fate, much more so than dying, would be Paige's absolute worst nightmare.

It really is the only decent way to write the end of Paige's story at this point. If they write yet another successful exfiltration back to the Soviet Union, past a bumbling FBI, this time with Paige, my eyes might roll back so hard that the rotation of the earth may be affected.

[hellmouse]

4 minutes ago, jjj said:

But there was an "aunt" -- Paige visited her, as Henry said.  Not fictitious to Henry, although *suspicious* to Stan. 

Maybe Stan will go talk to Paige next. It will be a good test of Paige's training. Can she act normal when being questioned? Or normal enough to fool Stan? Stan doesn't know Paige as well as he knows Henry so she might be able to fool him. But she's such a nervous, anxious creature that I find it hard to imagine her fooling anyone when something she really cares about is at risk. Plus, she certainly can't beat Stan up.  

[SunnyBeBe]

11 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I think that Renee will be an unwitting "lightbulb" for Philip and/or Elizabeth to realize the FBI is on to them. Just like Henry was for Stan. She'll say something about how she was at the FBI for an interview and saw a file with Elizabeth's name on it and thought how crazy that was that there's a criminal out there with the same name! Something that makes Stan wince and Philip and/or Elizabeth act super normal and leave as quickly and normally as possible from wherever they are with Stan and Renee and then finally, finally, have to get out of town. Do they make it? Stan will be 100% watching them. Do they kill him? 

IDK, it seems like it would be a good parallel for the "innocent" party to be the one who spills the beans. To make the parallel even better, she does it when Stan isn't even there. 

I really don't understand what the writers intended with Renee. 

I like your theory.  Very interesting.  

[dubbel zout]

13 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

I would have loved to have seen a full season of the Jennings coming to terms with the inevitable.

People would then complain it was taking too long, LOL.

I don't envy the people deciding how to end the show. They can't win no matter what, really.

4 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

Maybe Stan will go talk to Paige next. It will be a good test of Paige's training. Can she act normal when being questioned? Or normal enough to fool Stan? Stan doesn't know Paige as well as he knows Henry so she might be able to fool him. But she's such a nervous, anxious creature that I find it hard to imagine her fooling anyone when something she really cares about is at risk. Plus, she certainly can't beat Stan up.  

I'd like to see a Stan/Paige conversation now that Stan is suspicious. It really would be a test of everything Paige has been taught.

[sistermagpie]

38 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

I need Elizabeth to tell Paige explicitly what is involved in what she does. Not just this vague, "it's dangerous" "you might get killed" "you have to give up everything". She needs to know about stuffing bodies in a suitcase, beheading/behanding the body of a colleague, sleeping with people you have zero interest in (not just seducing a guy you think is kind of cute), being exposed to deadly toxins, killing random innocent people who are in the way, finally making a friend only to have to fuck them over.

Elizabeth is specifically avoiding this. She's still lying. Here she played up the danger and heroism of the person they were saving and Marilyn but failed to mention anybody else, iirc. Certainly she didn't say Philip chopped Marilyn up and they left her lying in a garage to Paige who fears being alone. 

27 minutes ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

I'm not sure I understand the relevance. The children's citizenship is based upon fraud and treason. Never mind that one of them has openly embraced working for the cause. They have no claim to stay in the country.

 

The relevance is that the show itself raised the possibility of the kids' citizenship being iffy back in S1 and we don't now that it's a given that they wouldn't be allowed to stay or sent away. They don't have to follow the real life story of any particular kid.

18 minutes ago, jjj said:

And did they really ask a random Mexican day laborer to hop in Harvest's car and drive away? Or was he KGB?  Still sorting out the caper.  

 

Yes, he was a random Mexican day laborer. Who gave clear descriptions to the FBI. They had no intention of handing over a KGB agent by letting him be the driver.

18 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Stan is not like Martha, or should not be, in any way, shape, or form. If that is what the writers are going for, they, not for the first time, don't understand at all the character they created.

 

Well, yeah. But emotionally he is Martha because he cares about someone he suspects is a spy.

16 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

As soon as Henry told Stan that he had never met this fictitious Aunt, I knew the jig was up. P & E were toast! There was no way they could ever wriggle out of this mess.

He said Paige met her.

13 minutes ago, Dev F said:

. . . I realized that this sort of fate, much more so than dying, would be Paige's absolute worst nightmare.

And it's exactly what she's signing up for. Even if she didn't get set up she's setting herself up to be completely alone. Remember when Claudia talked about the source who killed themselves because Claudia didn't have time to give him personal attention? That's Paige's best case scenario. Elizabeth doesn't even think she'll be alive much longer. She didn't call her when she thought she was going to die. She's totally fine with Paige spending the rest of her life with Claudia.

5 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

Maybe Stan will go talk to Paige next. It will be a good test of Paige's training. Can she act normal when being questioned? Or normal enough to fool Stan? Stan doesn't know Paige as well as he knows Henry so she might be able to fool him. But she's such a nervous, anxious creature that I find it hard to imagine her fooling anyone when something she really cares about is at risk. Plus, she certainly can't beat Stan up.  

Also, would she even know how to lie? Maybe not. If he brought the aunt it wouldn't be surprising if Paige denied that she ever met the woman because she now knows she didn't exist. Cue Stan wondering why Paige is denying meeting her when Henry thought she had. And wondering if there's something fishy. It would be very IC for Paige to think it was smarter to deny it than use the real story. She's probably never been told what to say. Plus there's the fact that she met the woman because she was also suspicious.

Quote

I'd like to see a Stan/Paige conversation now that Stan is suspicious. It really would be a test of everything Paige has been taught.

If she passes it it would be a first, unfortunately!

Edited May 10, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

I wonder if maybe Renee may have some distant relatives in Canada and if she might just fit the Jennings into her huge vehicle and smuggle them out of the USA and into safety in Canada. That would be one explanation for spending the time to make sure we all know she has this big dinosaur vehicle.

I would guess many of you won't like that idea very much. But I would love to have Elizabeth as a neighbor. Just so long as I get a warning to never say anything bad about the USSR or Communism. That would not be such a good idea.  But Elizabeth would make for a lovely neighbor.

Yeah, other than the off chance of getting stabbed, because you walk into a room at an inopportune moment , and the constant sight of her pounding butts out on the patio, like the worst nicotine addict east of the Mississippi, what's not to love? Maybe you'll get the idiot daughter State Department intern to come over occasionally, to provide conversation starters like "What's up with this thing called World War Two?"!

[BingeyKohan]

11 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

But Elizabeth would make for a lovely neighbor.

i agree! She bakes brownies. She can kill a threat with her bare hands. (I wouldn't be a threat.) As herself, she has great style. Unless you're of use to her, she will take no interest in you whatsoever. (I would be of no use to her.) She can kind of draw, though that is neither here nor there.

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth is specifically avoiding this. She's still lying. Here she played up the danger and heroism of the person they were saving and Marilyn but failed to mention anybody else, iirc. Certainly she didn't say Philip chopped Marilyn up and they left her lying in a garage to Paige who fears being alone. 

The relevance is that the show itself raised the possibility of the kids' citizenship being iffy back in S1 and we don't now that it's a given that they wouldn't be allowed to stay or sent away. They don't have to follow the real life story of any particular kid.

Yes, he was a random Mexican day laborer. Who gave clear descriptions to the FBI. They had no intention of handing over a KGB agent by letting him be the driver.

Well, yeah. But emotionally he is Martha because he cares about someone he suspects is a spy.

He said Paige met her.

And it's exactly what she's signing up for. Even if she didn't get set up she's setting herself up to be completely alone. Remember when Claudia talked about the source who killed themselves because Claudia didn't have time to give him personal attention? That's Paige's best case scenario. Elizabeth doesn't even think she'll be alive much longer. She didn't call her when she thought she was going to die. She's totally fine with Paige spending the rest of her life with Claudia.

Also, would she even know how to lie? Maybe not. If he brought the aunt it wouldn't be surprising if Paige denied that she ever met the woman because she now knows she didn't exist. Cue Stan wondering why Paige is denying meeting her when Henry thought she had. And wondering if there's something fishy. It would be very IC for Paige to think it was smarter to deny it than use the real story. She's probably never been told what to say. Plus there's the fact that she met the woman because she was also suspicious.

If she passes it it would be a first, unfortunately!

Stan is a person  who chose to abandon his family to do a job. Martha is a person who ignored basic stuff about her job, because she was utterly desperate to have family. They are completely different types of people.

[Ina123]

Just caught this over at Reddit. I'm paraphrasing because I can't remember it exactly but I feel the same.

I like how the P&E killing in this show doesn't seem "badass" or "cool".  It always seems degrading to the victims and P& E.

[MisterBluxom]

3 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

i agree! She bakes brownies. She can kill a threat with her bare hands. (I wouldn't be a threat.) As herself, she has great style. Unless you're of use to her, she will take no interest in you whatsoever. (I would be of no use to her.) She can kind of draw, though that is neither here nor there.

But she would not be working as a spy for the USSR. She would have to take on an entirely different lifestyle. She would not be doing any of the things that she had previously done in the USA. She couldn't take the chance of ever getting arrested for some violence.

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

Just caught this over at Reddit. I'm paraphrasing because I can't remember it exactly but I feel the same.

I like how the P&E killing in this show doesn't seem "badass" or "cool".  It always seems degrading to the victims and P& E.

The actual violence has been depicted very well, in my opinion, for exactly the reason you note. The logical consequences that should stem from that violence is what has been missing, in my view.

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Stan is a person  who chose to abandon his family to do a job. Martha is a person who ignored basic stuff about her job, because she was utterly desperate to have family. They are completely different types of people.

Yes, I get that. But the part that I described is obviously the same: Here is a person who is important to me in my life. I suspect they are up to something shady. I hope they aren't. Whether it should be true or not, it obviously is.

13 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The actual violence has been depicted very well, in my opinion, for exactly the reason you note. The logical consequences that should stem from that violence is what has been missing, in my view.

We can say for sure that Paige hasn't noticed anything in the paper about those warehouse murders, or read anything speculating that the General didn't kill himself. That public shootout in Chicago probably went by the wayside too. 

She gets all her news from Claudia and Elizabeth.

[Bannon]

Anyone born within the borders of the United States is a citizen of the United States. The actions of the parents are not relevant. Paige and Henry are genuine citizens of the United States.

[skippylou]

13 hours ago, hellmouse said:

Is there any way to connect that necklace to Elizabeth? I can't recall seeing any photos of her wearing it. 

They are the FBI.  1.  Identify the maker.  2. Find out what year(s) this one was made.  3.  Get a list of jewelers in metro DC that they have supplied.   4.  Search their credit card records relevant years.   Is successful this would yield a list of dozens of purchasers.  Phillip Jennings one of them?  Four alarm fire.

Not easy but not impossible.

Edited May 10, 2018 by skippylou

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, skippylou said:

Not easy but not impossible.

Not exactly the type of thing Stan's been shown to do on the show, I have to say. He blew off the stuff Aderholt was looking into that led to good info, didn't he?

[KarenX]

9 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Anyone born within the borders of the United States is a citizen of the United States. The actions of the parents are not relevant. Paige and Henry are genuine citizens of the United States.

Anchor babies!

Anchor babies who can be tried as citizens for treason.

[skippylou]

6 minutes ago, KarenX said:

Anchor babies!

Anchor babies who can be tried as citizens for treason.

Hey, Henry hasn't done anything illegal and I don't believe he will.

[Anela]

wait, what happened to Marilyn? Why are they about to chop her up? I missed something. I'm watching it now.

Oh my god. I'm glad they don't have any jaunty eighties music playing over this. It should be quiet. Damn. I'm typing through it, though. 

[jjj]

4 minutes ago, Anela said:

wait, what happened to Marilyn? Why are they about to chop her up? I missed something. I'm watching it now.

Oh my god. I'm glad they don't have any jaunty eighties music playing over this. It should be quiet. Damn. I'm typing through it, though. 

You might want to rewind.  Or read the epic recap.

[Bannon]

15 minutes ago, skippylou said:

Hey, Henry hasn't done anything illegal and I don't believe he will.

If Henry hires a decent literary and p.r. agent, he's going to fairly wealthy by the time he is 19! I guess it's "Thanks, dad!", after all!

The question is whether he ever requests a visit with Paige in her federal supermax lock-up. My guess is no!

Edited May 10, 2018 by Bannon

[Bannon]

41 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

We can say for sure that Paige hasn't noticed anything in the paper about those warehouse murders, or read anything speculating that the General didn't kill himself. That public shootout in Chicago probably went by the wayside too. 

She gets all her news from Claudia and Elizabeth.

If Paige was in an earthquake she wouldn't notice the house collapsing around her.

[Anela]

Oh, Stan. 

10 minutes ago, jjj said:

You might want to rewind.  Or read the epic recap.

I keep forgetting about the recaps. 

I like that Elizabeth is really trying with the drawing. That she's getting into it. 

1 hour ago, jjj said:

Did the box track (driven by Norm?) get away?

And did they really ask a random Mexican day laborer to hop in Harvest's car and drive away? Or was he KGB?  Still sorting out the caper.  

That seemed like a lot of monitoring for what was usually a routine drive to work.

This wasn't in the recap? 

I wondered how they had Philip driving a bus. I hope the higher-ups just managed to get him the shift, and that nobody was killed to get him there. 

[Anela]

Oh, she finally gets more real with Paige, over being a spy. 

Oh, she finally gets more real with Paige, over being a spy. 

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, Anela said:

Oh, she finally gets more real with Paige, over being a spy. 

I don't see how she's getting more real. Paige had already been told that people die, since Paige said that Elizabeth told her that this rarely happens and Elizabeth, iirc, said that it didn't. So still not sharing with her that pretty much every person they've ever worked with since 1981 is dead by now.

[snoba]

So why did Harvest take the Cyanide pill if he was already bleeding out? Just to hasten death and therefore not prolong the suffering?

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, snoba said:

So why did Harvest take the Cyanide pill if he was already bleeding out? Just to hasten death and therefore not prolong the suffering?

I guess. And to make the whole thing all the more pointless since he could have just done that to begin with.

[KarenX]

4 minutes ago, snoba said:

So why did Harvest take the Cyanide pill if he was already bleeding out? Just to hasten death and therefore not prolong the suffering?

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I guess. And to make the whole thing all the more pointless since he could have just done that to begin with.

He didn't know he was under surveillance and getting extracted, did he? So he wouldn't have taken it before getting into the van. Once he got in the van he had a chance of getting out of there alive.

After he got shot he needed time to give his last words to Philip. THEN he took the pill.

SIDE NOTE: That bright hole in the side of the van with the light streaming through next to him? The bullet hole? I couldn't take my eyes off it. I could probably write two or three paragraphs creating symbolism and themes out of that hole! But I won't.

[Chaos Theory]

P&E probably do have a birth certificate and a whole back history.  I think it was back in season one (Arckady?) made them memorize it.  They almost definitely have the paperwork to back it up.  The forgeries are top notch.  I think dead babies around the same age they are so the birth certificates are technically real.  So there is a real baby name Philip Jennings who died in the early sixties (let’s say) and a baby named Elizabeth (whatever her supposed maiden name is). They use that to get valid drivers licenses and then bank accounts and marriage licenses and businesses licenses.  It’s all so.....logical.   You track back that birth certificate to a dead baby but after two decades that is easier said then done.

[Anela]

12 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't see how she's getting more real. Paige had already been told that people die, since Paige said that Elizabeth told her that this rarely happens and Elizabeth, iirc, said that it didn't. So still not sharing with her that pretty much every person they've ever worked with since 1981 is dead by now.

I thought she was getting more real as I typed, I was watching it. She seemed to be getting there. 

I don't know how Paige can be so naive. It's really bothersome. 

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, KarenX said:

He didn't know he was under surveillance and getting extracted, did he? So he wouldn't have taken it before getting into the van. Once he got in the van he had a chance of getting out of there alive.

 

He knew he was under surveillance. They could have told him to take the pill and gotten the same result in the end, is my point, even if I understand why they tried to get him out. In the end he wound up taking the pill.

[Chaos Theory]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

He knew he was under surveillance. They could have told him to take the pill and gotten the same result in the end, is my point, even if I understand why they tried to get him out. In the end he wound up taking the pill.

 

3 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I must have missed something, because I have watched that seen twice and all I see is the necklace compartment opened up and the pill is missing, but I did not see Harvest put the pill in his mouth.  That is why I thought that Philip took possession of the pill.

If Harvest did take the pill, perhaps he did so because bleeding out was just too painful.

You don’t take the pill and maybe the FBI show up and administer life saving techniques and you wake up in a hospital.  You have been told you can’t be arrested.  You give your last words.  Whether or not you believe your mother or father will hear them doesn’t matter. You say them.   You can’t be taken alive.  

[ChromaKelly]

4 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I must have missed something, because I have watched that seen twice and all I see is the necklace compartment opened up and the pill is missing, but I did not see Harvest put the pill in his mouth.  That is why I thought that Philip took possession of the pill.

If Harvest did take the pill, perhaps he did so because bleeding out was just too painful.

He probably took it because there's no way P&E can take him to a hospital. They can't stay with him to ensure he's dead before the FBI gets them. Yes they could put him down but I'm guessing Harvest wanted to just go out instead of putting that burden on P&E.

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

P&E probably do have a birth certificate and a whole back history.  I think it was back in season one (Arckady?) made them memorize it.  They almost definitely have the paperwork to back it up.  The forgeries are top notch.  I think dead babies around the same age they are so the birth certificates are technically real.  So there is a real baby name Philip Jennings who died in the early sixties (let’s say) and a baby named Elizabeth (whatever her supposed maiden name is). They use that to get valid drivers licenses and then bank accounts and marriage licenses and businesses licenses.  It’s all so.....logical.   You track back that birth certificate to a dead baby but after two decades that is easier said then done.

If all you have is a name,  address, and approximate birthdate, then it's a ton of work in 1987, but even then the sudden appearance of a social security card, as an adult, is kind of suspicious. Still a lot of man hours to run it down, in a country as large as the U.S., although certainly Stan has asked questions through the years, like "Where were you born?" 

The fact that Phil applied for a passport, however, vastly simplifies things, since the State Department would have that specific Philip Jennings' birth certificate data. 

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I must have missed something, because I have watched that seen twice and all I see is the necklace compartment opened up and the pill is missing, but I did not see Harvest put the pill in his mouth.  That is why I thought that Philip took possession of the pill.

 

I think it's assumed he took the pill because he turned a bit purple. But I thought Philip was going to take the pill too before we saw the open necklace. He made a point of showing Elizabeth the necklace before he dropped it into the bag but it seemed like he realized he'd taken it and that's why he stopped putting pressure on the wound.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

You're right! Or a version of that suited to what they seem to have in mind for her - which would be: 'i hear you when you say you feel lonely and are looking forward to having a partner like your father. BUT working at the State Department you won't actually need a partner, and it's better if you don't have a civilian spouse you're lying to at home. So: spinsterhood for you, forever. Still in?'

Paige thinks her parents are Mr. and Mrs. Smith or the couple from True Lies. They have an amazingly glamorous job in which they do good for the world. She would find this amazingly romantic.

Too bad that one kid killed his spy parents, he could have been her one and only, if he was not already in love with that other lady.

I was thinking it was a giant blow to E and P not to have that couple as friends (even though the friendship was secret). They were the only couple that could relate to them in any real way.

[Erin9]

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't see how she's getting more real. Paige had already been told that people die, since Paige said that Elizabeth told her that this rarely happens and Elizabeth, iirc, said that it didn't. So still not sharing with her that pretty much every person they've ever worked with since 1981 is dead by now.

Yep. The only thing that was new was sort of give Paige an out. But not really because she still hasn’t been totally honest about what spying really means. Paige might just think differently if she truly knew everything explicitly. Uncensored. 

And saying Philip should not have become a spy is missing the biggest reason he burned out- his questioning of the competence of the Soviet government and usefulness of what they were doing. He’s spying with Oleg for a reason- he believes in it. Speaking of, I wonder if we’ll find out what was in that note. I want to know. 

I could see Philip telling Elizabeth the truth once he’s done what he wanted to do. 

[BingeyKohan]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think it's assumed he took the pill because he turned a bit purple. But I thought Philip was going to take the pill too before we saw the open necklace. He made a point of showing Elizabeth the necklace before he dropped it into the bag but it seemed like he realized he'd taken it and that's why he stopped putting pressure on the wound.

I'm not totally sure I understand the point of the pill, or the point of the editing purposefully cutting away and not showing him actually take it. Harvest was probably going to die yet he took the pill anyway (we think). Why? Just so we got to see somebody die by cyanide, since it was introduced, and we won't be seeing Elizabeth take one? But seeing it makes us really believe that out clause is very real and gruesome and right there around her neck? Why make an editing choice that leaves half your audience unsure of what happened? I liked the mechanics and ingenuity of how they got them from his car into the bus but otherwise I'm not sure what we got out of all of that. I guess we got something action-y and tragic that was able to remind Stan of Philly and of the man and woman who have been just beyond his grasp for 6 or 7 years.

[Anela]

Why did they chop her up, though? It looked like they just left her laying there. 

[dubbel zout]

31 minutes ago, KarenX said:

SIDE NOTE: That bright hole in the side of the van with the light streaming through next to him? The bullet hole? I couldn't take my eyes off it.

Same here! Gorgeous.

1 minute ago, Anela said:

Why did they chop her up, though? It looked like they just left her laying there. 

Her head and hands were chopped off so she couldn't be easily identified. They left the rest of her body there because it would have been too time-consuming to get rid of it. With the head and hands, they could wrap them in Philip's carry-on bag and toss it all in the river, as we saw Elizabeth do.

There are good articles over at Vulture on how those scenes were shot.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Stan's next move is pretty obvious.  He has to talk to Paige.  Paige is a walking disaster.  That won't go well.  Would Paige be prepared to kill Stan?  She may not have a choice.  She does not have a poker face.  Stan would never see it coming if he was attacked by Paige.  Of course, Paige would have no way to get rid of Stan's body.

 

Just want to say I can't imagine any scene where Paige killed anyone as being remotely believable. I don't think Holly Taylor could do it or Paige either. Not only has Paige never done anything like that, her mother is still convincing her that she's not a murderer. Paige has no training in killing people, she just does that fighting she does in the garage that's for self-defense, fighting that takes a while to drop a big drunk guy. It would be completely bizarre for her to grab a knife and stab him or whatever. I can't even imagine it coming into her head. I wouldn't believe anything other than Paige just freaking out and getting defensive.

11 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

And saying Philip should not have become a spy is missing the biggest reason he burned out- his questioning of the competence of the Soviet government and usefulness of what they were doing. He’s spying with Oleg for a reason- he believes in it. Speaking of, I wonder if we’ll find out what was in that note. I want to know. 

 

Yes, this to me seems really central. Everything Elizabeth says to Paige is censored. Everything sticks to the version of her work that she wants to believe. One of the many things she's never understood or never allowed herself to understand was Philip's reasonable challenges of their orders. Elizabeth convinced Philip to get the bioweapon because the USA, the only nation to ever drop an atom bomb, was creating this terrible stuff to use on the Soviets. Then Claudia happily reported that they took the virus, weaponized it, and used it in Afghanistan. Elizabeth didn't care. This isn't even just incompetence, it goes to the heart of Elizabeth says she's doing.

So Philip's problems, according to Elizabeth, is just the vague inability to live this life. A life that to Paige and Elizabeth is basically a safe space that keeps them from having to engage with a complicated world with flawed people. 

6 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

If they were caught, what would Philip have done?  He didn't have a pill.  Would he have killed himself or turned himself in?

Probably tried to fight and get killed.

4 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

I'm not totally sure I understand the point of the pill, or the point of the editing purposefully cutting away and not showing him actually take it.

I think that was because we were supposed to be in Philip's pov. He didn't see him take it, probably would have had a big reaction to it if he did. So he just saw it when it was too late--which might happen with Elizabeth too.

1 minute ago, Anela said:

Why did they chop her up, though? It looked like they just left her laying there. 

They got rid of her head and her hands so it was impossible to identify her.

[zibnchy]

7 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

The reason Paige doesn't have any friends, is because she has isolated herself from others in her age group. 

The reason Paige doesn't have any friends likely has to do with the fact that she was raised by Soviet spies (and cold blooded killers). You think Elizabeth was busy planning play dates for Paige? Seems like E&P were hardly ever home (esp at night) and they likely expected her to grow up faster to help with her little brother. E&P didn't mirror positive behaviors for her to emulate, other than sneaking around and lying.

Honestly, can you imagine Elizabeth as mother of a toddler?

[qtpye]

15 minutes ago, zibnchy said:

The reason Paige doesn't have any friends likely has to do with the fact that she was raised by Soviet spies (and cold blooded killers). You think Elizabeth was busy planning play dates for Paige? Seems like E&P were hardly ever home (esp at night) and they likely expected her to grow up faster to help with her little brother. E&P didn't mirror positive behaviors for her to emulate, other than sneaking around and lying.

Honestly, can you imagine Elizabeth as mother of a toddler?

Elizabeth would definitely plan play dates if it helped them look more "normal". Also, E can fake being very charming and warm when she needs to be. I can see kids clamoring to play with Paige and her "nice and pretty mommy".

Henry was also raised in the same environment and he always had plenty of friends. He is obviously an all-around superstar at his school. Perhaps the reason that Paige has no friends is that she is a dorky weirdo whose one social talent seems to be getting rando jerks to hit on her.

That being said, I would hate to have Elizabeth as a mother.

Edited May 10, 2018 by qtpye

[Moose135]

44 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

If they were caught, what would Philip have done?  He didn't have a pill.  Would he have found another way to kill himself or turn himself in?

Elizabeth and Harvest had the pill because they knew about Dead Hand and the plot to undermine/overthrow Gorbachev.  They couldn't allow themselves to be captured where they might reveal that information.  I don't think she has told Philip anything about it - she only told him an Illegal was discovered and needed to be rescued in Chicago.

[dubbel zout]

The cyanide pill indicates to Philip that Harvest is likely connected to whatever Elizabeth is up to, even if nothing explicit was said. Philip would know a mission needing a cyanide pill is critically important.

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, zibnchy said:

The reason Paige doesn't have any friends likely has to do with the fact that she was raised by Soviet spies (and cold blooded killers). You think Elizabeth was busy planning play dates for Paige? Seems like E&P were hardly ever home (esp at night) and they likely expected her to grow up faster to help with her little brother. E&P didn't mirror positive behaviors for her to emulate, other than sneaking around and lying.

Honestly, can you imagine Elizabeth as mother of a toddler?

 

9 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Henry was also raised in the same environment and he always had plenty of friends. He is obviously an all-around superstar at his school. Perhaps the reason that Paige has no friends is that she is a dorky weirdo whose one social talent seems to be getting rando jerks to hit on her.

 

You said this better than I was trying to--we even hear Elizabeth talking about taking Paige to playdates or a playgroup when she was a toddler. 

It seems like Paige has long considered herself better than most people--even in the church group she had less interest in other kids than she had in the Pastor. She's doing the same thing now. She thinks the other kids don't get it, plus of course now she's got the big secret. But I don't think it's mean to note that she's always been very self-absorbed and considered herself uniquely troubled, long before she knew the secret. And back then she thought she had totally normal parents--she was never a kid who was acting like the woman of the house and raising her brother, she was just the kind of kid that liked the reaction of being responsible. 

 

7 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

I don't think she has told Philip anything about it - she only told him an Illegal was discovered and needed to be rescued in Chicago.

Philip knew Harvest was working on the same secret mission as Elizabeth for which she was given a suicide pill.

[JennyMominFL]

I know someone mentioned the mark in Elizabeth's face and AIDS/HIV. As someone who has survived 28 years  with HIV, I can tell you that women with AIDS don't really get Kaposi Sarcoma much. AIDS presents differently in women than in men. Men with AIDS are 8 times more likely to get it than women..

[skippylou]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

P&E probably do have a birth certificate and a whole back history.  I think it was back in season one (Arckady?) made them memorize it.  They almost definitely have the paperwork to back it up.  The forgeries are top notch.  I think dead babies around the same age they are so the birth certificates are technically real.  So there is a real baby name Philip Jennings who died in the early sixties (let’s say) and a baby named Elizabeth (whatever her supposed maiden name is). They use that to get valid drivers licenses and then bank accounts and marriage licenses and businesses licenses.  It’s all so.....logical.   You track back that birth certificate to a dead baby but after two decades that is easier said then done.

The FBI did exactly that with Clark Westerfield and William Crandall.  No computers, just massive manpower and shoe leather.