S06.E05: The Great Patriotic War

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I think she does have some idea of who she thinks Philip is. I think Paige, somewhat justifiably by her experience growing up, sees Philip as the "soft" parent. He's always been the one who related to her on an emotional level. Elizabeth didn't deal much with emotion and I think Paige would see her as the strong parent. Of course, we know she has no clue who Philip really is. When there's such a disparity in a family dynamic, the tendency is to want to be more like the stronger parent, because you see the softer parent as weak. And no one wants to be weak. So I think, even as a younger girl, Paige had some incipient contempt for Philip, seeing him as weak, even though she loves him.

Now that he's out of the spy game, and Paige sees herself at her mother's level, she's absorbed Elizabeth's attitude about Philip and her incipient contempt has turned into actual contempt, when it comes to the spy game and I think she sees him as some has been who never (in her mind) was much of anything when it came to spying. Because she's been sheltered - by both parents earlier, and especially from Elizabeth now, though Philip is complicit - from the harsher realities of what they do, she has never really thought of Philip as a spy on the same level as Elizabeth. She's who Paige respects - even as she blows off most of what Elizabeth says and only hears the praise.

This is so true and really good analysis of the family. I wish the writers could explain themselves as well as you have laid out the family dynamics.

[MisterBluxom]

22 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I am going to be disappointed if she "takes herself out".  She deserves a slow drawn out painful death.  Not the type of death where she "cashes in her own chips".

I hope they are done with her murdering people.  I need a break.  And because it can't be said enough, she needs to stay away from Oleg.

It was sad to see Mr.  and  Mrs. Crackpot (Teacup) die, expecially with the kid in the house.  That kid is going to need a lot of therapy.

I do wonder what the Crackpot's were watching on TV when Elizabeth was thinning the herd.

I can understand your desire. But there are many situations when a foreign spy would be almost happy to swallow a poison pill and end their own life.

One would be if they believe they are in imminent danger of being captured and tortured to death. Another would be if they believe in their country and the job they are doing and prefer to die than to be captured and forced to give up some info that would cause harm to their country or their family or the people they work with.

I've always found that an easy topic to understand. I wouldn't be happy to do that. But dying (hopefully painlessly) by my own hand would certainly be preferable to getting tortured to death. Don't you think so?

[Inquisitionist]

2 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Putting all of his eggs in Kimmie's basket really doesn't seem like a good idea.  I know that sounds horribly dirty, but I can't think of a better way to phrase it.

Thanks for the laugh.  Dare I say that Philip was planting a seed?  ;-)

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I think she does have some idea of who she thinks Philip is.

Oh, I definitely think she does--I wasn't quite sure what she meant in that scene just in the context of what he was trying to say there that she was heading off, but I agree with everything you say here. I thought that was actually part of what she liked about Pastor Tim as well. Because that marriage was more traditional when the wife sitting quietly by the husband's side while the husband lectured and held authority. Even when the two separated she blamed Elizabeth for always being "too hard" on Dad. She's incapable of seeing strength when it doesn't look like what she thinks it should look like. (Even Philip's story about his past was about his mother being tough and his father being tired and then dead.) 

I really hope Paige has a realization about this. I don't think the scene in her apartment did it. It might have made an impression, but Philip was perfectly gentle with her there too. He told her to try to hit him and she was unable to because he just kept her from moving again and again. Then she went right back to Elizabeth and Claudia where they talk about sex with men just as bodies. (They toast to "the boy" they were laughing at--if Elizabeth remembers his name she doesn't share it.) Paige's hook-ups are the same way. She's not looking for a relationship unless it's one where she's really using the guy for information to bring back to her mother. Sex for her, at the moment, is not about a relationship. It's more just power. 

Philip, of course, is all about relationships. Paige probably sees Elizabeth as having all the power in the relationship and not really caring about love at all. But this is another thing Elizabeth is hiding from Paige. 

Of course, not only is Philip not being totally honest with her either, but Philip's always been the one who hides his true self anyway. Elizabeth hides that she's a Russian spy, but there's not much a difference between her affect in either role. She can smile and be pleasant in her regular life but she always comes across as basically tough there too. Philip spends most of his life making himself look non-threatening and soft. Elizabeth thinks the killer in her is the most valuable part. Philip thinks it's something he wishes he didn't have to have at all.

Edited May 1, 2018 by sistermagpie

[MisterBluxom]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

Stan's bosses are going to wonder how it was humanly possible for the Jennings to live across the street from him for so long without him having the slightest clue that they are Soviet spies.

But what a fun question: Who is dumber? Stan or his bosses?

I would wager no one would want that question to ever find its way into the American public's consciousness.

Maybe that's because the answer would be that both of them are right at the bottom of the "Dumbness Scale" and it would be excrutiatingly embarrassing for everyone involved to even contemplate such a question - never mind trying to answer it.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I really hope Paige has a realization about this. I don't think the scene in her apartment did it. It might have made an impression, but Philip was perfectly gentle with her there too. He told her to try to hit him and she was unable to because he just kept her from moving again and again. Then she went right back to Elizabeth and Claudia where they talk about sex with men just as bodies. (They toast to "the boy" they were laughing at--if Elizabeth remembers his name she doesn't share it.) Paige's hook-ups are the same way. She's not looking for a relationship unless it's one where she's really using the guy for information to bring back to her mother. Sex for her, at the moment, is not about a relationship. It's more just power. 

In thinking about what you have said, I flashed back to some of Paige's other escapades and it seems real clear to me the Paige character has very little understanding of what her parents are really about  and very little understanding of what the world is really about.

It's hardly her fault. She thinks she knows an awful lot. She thinks she is a very clever grown-up lady. She thinks she has it all over most of her contemporaries - after all, she really did kick the shit out of those two stupid goofs. Didn't she?

But I get very frightened thinking about Paige in this light because she reminds me so much of everyone I know - especially myself.

I get the feeling we are all kind of "F'ed" and that really does frighten me.

Edited May 1, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Stan's bosses are going to wonder how it was humanly possible for the Jennings to live across the street from him for so long without him having the slightest clue that they are Soviet spies.

These are the idiots who use an urban apartment building with a fire escape, with a single guard out front, for a "safe house". The cretins who can't execute a simple stakeout. The imbeciles who never sweep Kimmie's dad for listening devices, despite knowing that he has been identified by a foreign intelligence service.

There may not be anybody at the FBI in this show who could beat my dog in a game of checkers.

[J-Man]

Do we know how old Elizabeth is supposed to be now? I'm confused about the memories she seems to have about WWII -- she'd have to be at least nearing 50 if she can remember anything about the 1940s in 1987. Or are her comments about the post-war period?

I guess it was fortuitous that Kimmie didn't use Philip's travel agency to book her trip to Greece.

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, J-Man said:

Do we know how old Elizabeth is supposed to be now? I'm confused about the memories she seems to have about WWII -- she'd have to be at least nearing 50 if she can remember anything about the 1940s in 1987. Or are her comments about the post-war period?

 

She doesn't remember it much, if at all. She would have been born around 1942 so she's about 44 now. Claudia was talking about WWII and Elizabeth was just talking about her early childhood just afterwards. Claudia's very much defined by being a WWII vet; Elizabeth and Philip as that post-war generation--the anti-Baby Boomers, in a way.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh, I definitely think she does--I wasn't quite sure what she meant in that scene just in the context of what he was trying to say there that she was heading off, but I agree with everything you say here. I thought that was actually part of what she liked about Pastor Tim as well. Because that marriage was more traditional when the wife sitting quietly by the husband's side while the husband lectured and held authority. Even when the two separated she blamed Elizabeth for always being "too hard" on Dad. She's incapable of seeing strength when it doesn't look like what she thinks it should look like. (Even Philip's story about his past was about his mother being tough and his father being tired and then dead.) 

I really hope Paige has a realization about this. I don't think the scene in her apartment did it. It might have made an impression, but Philip was perfectly gentle with her there too. He told her to try to hit him and she was unable to because he just kept her from moving again and again. Then she went right back to Elizabeth and Claudia where they talk about sex with men just as bodies. (They toast to "the boy" they were laughing at--if Elizabeth remembers his name she doesn't share it.) Paige's hook-ups are the same way. She's not looking for a relationship unless it's one where she's really using the guy for information to bring back to her mother. Sex for her, at the moment, is not about a relationship. It's more just power. 

Philip, of course, is all about relationships. Paige probably sees Elizabeth as having all the power in the relationship and not really caring about love at all. But this is another thing Elizabeth is hiding from Paige. 

Of course, not only is Philip not being totally honest with her either, but Philip's always been the one who hides his true self anyway. Elizabeth hides that she's a Russian spy, but there's not much a difference between her affect in either role. She can smile and be pleasant in her regular life but she always comes across as basically tough there too. Philip spends most of his life making himself look non-threatening and soft. Elizabeth thinks the killer in her is the most valuable part. Philip thinks it's something he wishes he didn't have to have at all.

2

I would imagine Paige finds dad to be nice and a little dorky, as many people usually find their dad (I am sure even Mick Jagger's kids do not think he was cool when they were teenagers/young adults) and Mom was always beautiful, glamorous, amazing, and a little distant. Later she finds out mom not only wants to change the world like she does, but is actually a kickass spy that is fighting for social justice like a superhero. The sad thing is, it seems like I am describing a 12-year-old girl, not a college student.

[Chaos Theory]

3 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I would imagine Paige finds dad to be nice and a little dorky, as many people usually find their dad (I am sure even Mick Jagger's kids do not think he was cool when they were teenagers/young adults) and Mom was always beautiful, glamorous, amazing, and a little distant. 

Keith Urban jokes that his kids often don’t want to come back stage and see him preform because they find it boring.  It’s Keith Urban for God sake!!!!

 

25 minutes ago, J-Man said:

Do we know how old Elizabeth is supposed to be now? I'm confused about the memories she seems to have about WWII -- she'd have to be at least nearing 50 if she can remember anything about the 1940s in 1987. Or are her comments about the post-war period?

 Claudia would be around Elizabeth’s mothers age  Someone who lived through the harshness of WWII.  Elizabeth was just a child then and remembers very little.  Like a lot of kids maybe remembers things with rose colored glasses because she is a true believer and her mother did tell her to join the KGB at a young age.

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

These are the idiots who use an urban apartment building with a fire escape, with a single guard out front, for a "safe house". The cretins who can't execute a simple stakeout. The imbeciles who never sweep Kimmie's dad for listening devices, despite knowing that he has been identified by a foreign intelligence service.

There may not be anybody at the FBI in this show who could beat my dog in a game of checkers.

OK. Now, just hang on a sec there.  Don't you think that might just be taking things a step too far?

Edited May 1, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Blakeston]

If Philip wanted to blatantly out himself to Kimmy as a communist spy, I think he did a bad job of it.

His warning could easily be interpreted as the concern of an overly protective worrywart, who's heard a few too many horror stories about evil commies taking advantage of innocent American girls. Especially in the eyes of someone as naive as Kimmy. I think she'd willfully jump to any conclusion that didn't involve Philip being a spy who'd been stringing her along for years.

If Philip really wanted to make the situation clear to Kimmy, he could have said something like, "I'm in a position to know that there are people who want to get you into a communist country to blackmail your father - so don't visit any countries other than Greece."

I took the warning as a decision on Philip's part to tell her bluntly what to do, without saying any more than he needed to. He knew it might cause her to notify her father, and he was willing to live with that. But I don't think it was his actual goal to get her to alert her father.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I took the warning as a decision on Philip's part to tell her bluntly what to do, without saying any more than he needed to. He knew it might cause her to notify her father, and he was willing to live with that. But I don't think it was his actual goal to get her to alert her father.

I agree. If she told her father and her father checked out Jim he'd figure out he didn't really exist pretty fast. But it's also possible that "Jim" if he was a real person could give her this warning. He might even be warning her about a real thing he knew about because who the hell knows what kind of things Jim's involved in? 

[Umbelina]

I think the "real" Kimmy would go back and forth about it for a few hours.  Then she would call her dad.  She's not stupid, or really naive anymore, she's not still 15 looking for a daddy substitute.  She's getting along with her dad now too.

There is NO chance a CIA guy would not immediately act.  They suspect everyone anyway.  He would react, and he would notify his bosses, he would check out "Jim" and Kimmy would be doing a sketch in CIA headquarters and debriefed about everything she knows about Jim, when she met him, all of it.  Bug sweeps would be done on Kimmy, on her dad, his house and possessions.

I think she tells.  I would.  I'd tell even if I was estranged from my father, I would tell him that.

On top of everything else, Jim just screwed her and dumped her immediately after.  That had to hurt. 

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, MissBluxom said:

OK. Now, just hang on a sec there.  Don't you think that might just be taking things a step too far?

Yeah, using the modifier "may" is selling my dog short.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

 Claudia would be around Elizabeth’s mothers age  Someone who lived through the harshness of WWII.  Elizabeth was just a child then and remembers very little.  Like a lot of kids maybe remembers things with rose colored glasses because she is a true believer and her mother did tell her to join the KGB at a young age.

Of the war, yes, she wouldn't remember much. But the deprivations went on long after the war - so Elizabeth certainly experienced plenty of harshness - just not active warfare.

[AllyB]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think the "real" Kimmy would go back and forth about it for a few hours.  Then she would call her dad.  She's not stupid, or really naive anymore, she's not still 15 looking for a daddy substitute.  She's getting along with her dad now too.

If I knew my dad was a spy, and a fairly high ranking one at that. And some guy I'd known for years, who also knew my dad was a spy, just randomly said he should never see me again. Then warned me off letting someone persuade me to accompany them to an enemy country, before saying goodbye forever and hanging up, I'd know something was up. And Garner's delivery of 'what?' after Philip said 'communist countries,' suggests that her insides turned to ice as soon as he spoke. Followed by the fact that she couldn't even speak and stayed silent through any pauses Philip made as he spoke told me that Kimmie knows Jim was, at a minimum, more than he let on.

Whether or not she'll accept that it was dodgy enough that she needs to talk to her father about it remains to be seen. She might be able to persuade herself that Jim was always who he said he was, and he simply bailed because of the sex. That the communist country comment was just a random way to say goodbye, maybe because of some story he heard or read about. That would be a tempting lie to believe especially as she wouldn't want to tell her father about a humiliating situation that at worst means she naively compromised her father's work for half a decade or at best means she was dumped by the much older guy she just slept with after years of keeping him a secret from her family. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if she does eventually go to him and tell him everything she knows.

[Dev F]

9 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Stan's bosses are going to wonder how it was humanly possible for the Jennings to live across the street from him for so long without him having the slightest clue that they are Soviet spies.

(scene from the future)

Agent Brooks: But, I mean, six years? They lived across the street from him for six years, and he had no idea?

Aderholt (sighs): He told me he wasn't cut out for counterintelligence. I should've listened to him. Maybe he should've listened to himself.

Robert Hanssen: Hey, guys, you still need my help with those double agent profiles?

Aderholt: Thanks, Bob, I'll meet you in the vault in five minutes.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Dev F

[Dowel Jones]

7 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I would wager no one would want that question to ever find its way into the American public's consciousness.

I would wager that the shock waves that went through the FBI and the CIA were vastly stronger than even the public scandals after the above named Hannsen and Aldrich Ames were arrested.  There had to be some career ending moments all through the halls.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, AllyB said:

Whether or not she'll accept that it was dodgy enough that she needs to talk to her father about it remains to be seen. She might be able to persuade herself that Jim was always who he said he was, and he simply bailed because of the sex.

Definitely he let her know there was more to him than he let on--but it's possible, from her pov, that he wasn't *always* that. She might not want to go down that road in her mind and just keep Jim her secret forever. I would believe going either way on the show.

[Umbelina]

If they made Kimmy as idiotic as Paige, then that's seriously an insult.  What?  Being raised middle class in the USA means you have no sense at all?  Or would it just be because they are both women?

[Erin9]

I was thinking about the sparring scene- one of the best scenes of this whole show. 

Paige says she’s not like Philip. She’s like her mom and is into it- ie spying. She’s better and stronger than him.  Philip turns right around and shows Paige she’s not like THEM. Him and Elizabeth.  He didn’t even have to try. She tried. He handled her easily. 

That scene showed many things- Elizabeth’s poor training for the real world, Paige’s lack of skill for serious fighting, her condescending and arrogant attitude towards her father- and how fed up he is hearing his daughter explain to him how well she knows him and the spy world. 

[TimWil]

I would think that Paige got at least a rough outline of how the Soviet Union suffered in WWII back when she and Elizabeth traveled to East Germany to meet Elizabeth’s mother.

[hellmouse]

5 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I was thinking about the sparring scene- one of the best scenes of this whole show. 

I agree so much. There was something very electric about that scene. The stone cold killer Philip was suddenly present in Paige's apartment.. For some reason as they fought I kept thinking about Annelise being put in that suitcase. Paige has no idea what she's dealing with, and Elizabeth has hidden too much from her. Will the episode with her father pique the curiosity Paige used to have about her parents? Or will she continue blindly following the path she's on? I am eager to whatever the next interaction is between Paige and Philip. Do they talk about what happened? If so, who starts the conversation? I honestly can't predict. 

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

If they made Kimmy as idiotic as Paige, then that's seriously an insult.  What?  Being raised middle class in the USA means you have no sense at all?  Or would it just be because they are both women?

I don't think it would make her idiotic. I mean, logically Martha should have figured out about Clark years before she did, but she didn't. Not because she was simply an idiot but because the relationship meant so much to her. I feel the same way about Kimmy. If she didn't tell her father--and of course she might do that, but if she didn't--it would make sense to me emotionally. Jim is a really important person to her. He came into her life when she was really unhappy and made her happy. He didn't ask anything in return, really. Not even sex. He took a genuine interest in her, was instrumental in improving her relationship with her father, it seems, by listening to her, made her feel needed and cared for. He stayed interested in her for years. Never did anything bad that she knows of to her or her father. It's like Philip said when asked if Martha wouldn't turn him in--no, because she loved him.

Now he's suddenly saying he can't be with her and then gives her what's clearly a warning against danger? I think she might love him too much to want to immediately sic her father on him. Or want to dig into what kind of stuff he might really have been into. I would completely believe it if her emotions led her to want to end their relationship with her outgrowing her need for him (Jim as a character was stunted emotionally by design), getting her one night of grown-up love with him, and then him leaving with a troubling warning to keep her safe. Not to mention she might realize how little she wants to lay the relationship out in the light of day for her father.

Not that I'm saying that's how it has to happen, but if the show meant the Kimmy story less as a plot point for the endgame and more as just a development in the Jennings' marriage, I'd believe that too. They might mean it as both. Kimmy's father might be just one more brick that's about to fall down on their heads. But if not I think there's plenty of emotional reasons for Kimmy to tell herself it's not necessary (especially if nobody does try to bring her to a Communist country.)

10 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Paige says she’s not like Philip. She’s like her mom and is into it- ie spying. She’s better and stronger than him.  Philip turns right around and shows Paige she’s not like THEM. Him and Elizabeth.  He didn’t even have to try. She tried. He handled her easily. 

Another thing that's interesting about the scene is they're not really fighting, exactly. He tells her to hit him and promises he'll be okay and then...she can't. He's come to her to tell her that however powerful she felt punching that guy in a bar, that powerful feeling is an illusion. It doesn't make her strong. So when she fights with him he's not hitting her back (like the guy in the bar did and like Elizabeth's probably done at times) so that she can then pick herself up and hit back again. He just evades her. She's punching nothing. Then he holds her so she can't move until either he lets go or she gets tired or can't breathe.

Elizabeth's sparring is set up to mimic the feeling of a real fight even if Elizabeth, it seems, is always better. (She kicked Paige in the garage in this ep.) In the bar the guy was standing there as something to be hit. With Philip it's not just that Paige loses the fight it's that she really can't fight so it doesn't give her any sort of a rush, probably. He's not even saying that he's better at this than she is, it's that she can't even do this stuff with him.

3 minutes ago, TimWil said:

I would think that Paige got at least a rough outline of how the Soviet Union suffered in WWII back when she and Elizabeth traveled to East Germany to meet Elizabeth’s mother.

They didn't go to East Germany. They went to West Germany and her mother came to them.

[Erin9]

Maybe this Kimmie story will play a larger role in the endgame, but right now it tells me more about how Philip feels about Elizabeth and what lines he will and won’t cross and why than anything else. Philip has been angry/hurt with Elizabeth before- over Gregory, Paige, different POVS on ops etc. This is very different. 

It’s interesting. I’ve read a lot of commentary online that suggests this is “more” treasonous than Philip giving info to Oleg. This is “real.” I see it as the same. It’s about the summit. Hardliners in the KGB would want him dead. Reformers would say- good for you. 

But Elizabeth’s op is off the books, unsanctioned by top leadership. So- who is the traitor? 

Depends on your POV. I find that to be one of the most interesting things about this season. 

[AllyB]

6 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I’ve read a lot of commentary online that suggests this is “more” treasonous than Philip giving info to Oleg. This is “real.” I see it as the same.

The difference is that Elizabeth may never know that Philip spied against her for Oleg. Theoretically, the summit may go just as Gorbachev and his supporters want and Elizabeth and the KGB hardliners may never know Philip had anything to do with it. Their marriage will continue as normal and (Philip probably hoped when this all started) Elizabeth's workload will diminish and things might improve for the whole family.

With the Kimmy situation, Elizabeth will immediately know that he has suddenly stopped working on the planned abduction when he refuses to go to Greece. She will know she tried to work Philip and it didn't work, that he is no longer pliable to her. As well as that, he has risked their exposure to the Americans, which is a very different proposition to taking different sides on an internal Russian conflict.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think it would make her idiotic. I mean, logically Martha should have figured out about Clark years before she did, but she didn't. Not because she was simply an idiot but because the relationship meant so much to her. I feel the same way about Kimmy. If she didn't tell her father--and of course she might do that, but if she didn't--it would make sense to me emotionally. Jim is a really important person to her. He came into her life when she was really unhappy and made her happy. He didn't ask anything in return, really. Not even sex. He took a genuine interest in her, was instrumental in improving her relationship with her father, it seems, by listening to her, made her feel needed and cared for. He stayed interested in her for years. Never did anything bad that she knows of to her or her father. It's like Philip said when asked if Martha wouldn't turn him in--no, because she loved him.

Now he's suddenly saying he can't be with her and then gives her what's clearly a warning against danger? I think she might love him too much to want to immediately sic her father on him. Or want to dig into what kind of stuff he might really have been into. I would completely believe it if her emotions led her to want to end their relationship with her outgrowing her need for him (Jim as a character was stunted emotionally by design), getting her one night of grown-up love with him, and then him leaving with a troubling warning to keep her safe. Not to mention she might realize how little she wants to lay the relationship out in the light of day for her father.

 

Yes! Most of us have at least some moments when we ignore warning signals when we love someone. It's a human thing. Relationships are such a huge part of this show. Philip's relationship with Martha changed him, I think. Running a long game, he started to truly care for her and the devastation he brought to her life devastated him too. Even Elizabeth, who denies her emotions, was shaken with what she had to do with (June Yee? I've forgotten the name). She'd allowed a few barriers to open and let herself care.

That's what I love about this show - the spying is very interesting, but the complicated relationships - with people and the truth, are what I watch for. Some hit home more than others.

9 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Paige says she’s not like Philip. She’s like her mom and is into it- ie spying. She’s better and stronger than him.  Philip turns right around and shows Paige she’s not like THEM. Him and Elizabeth.  He didn’t even have to try. She tried. He handled her easily.

"Into it" is such a wierd phrase for Paige to say. But I think it's deliberate (at least if the writers agree with my response to the phrase). When I hear someone say they're "into" something, to me that means it's something for fun, a hobby, or a passing fancy. "I'm really into Game of Thrones" or "I'm into scrapbooking."  It just doesn't come across as serious to me - especially when talking about the spy game. Which I think is still more game than serious work to Paige.

[hellmouse]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

"Into it" is such a wierd phrase for Paige to say. But I think it's deliberate (at least if the writers agree with my response to the phrase). When I hear someone say they're "into" something, to me that means it's something for fun, a hobby, or a passing fancy. "I'm really into Game of Thrones" or "I'm into scrapbooking."  It just doesn't come across as serious to me - especially when talking about the spy game. Which I think is still more game than serious work to Paige.

I was thinking about Elizabeth saying "maybe she's not cut out for this" to Philip. Even if Elizabeth is right (IMO, she is), how can they stop it? 

What if through some turn of events Elizabeth tells Paige that it's over, she's not cut out for spying, and they're going to stop. I feel like Paige wouldn't accept it, and would do something dumb to try to prove that she really can handle it (kind of like Hans, although probably not murder). I also don't know if Claudia would accept it. Maybe she'd start meeting with Paige in secret. But even if they all agree Paige isn't cut out to be a spy, she will always have to be managed as a KGB asset. She knows WAY too much for them to just say "oh well, didn't work, it's over". Paige may be "into it" now, but does she realize she will have to be "into it" for the rest of her life? It's like how she had to go to bible study even when she didn't feel like it. Does she realize that? IDK.

[Bannon]

12 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I was thinking about Elizabeth saying "maybe she's not cut out for this" to Philip. Even if Elizabeth is right (IMO, she is), how can they stop it? 

What if through some turn of events Elizabeth tells Paige that it's over, she's not cut out for spying, and they're going to stop. I feel like Paige wouldn't accept it, and would do something dumb to try to prove that she really can handle it (kind of like Hans, although probably not murder). I also don't know if Claudia would accept it. Maybe she'd start meeting with Paige in secret. But even if they all agree Paige isn't cut out to be a spy, she will always have to be managed as a KGB asset. She knows WAY too much for them to just say "oh well, didn't work, it's over". Paige may be "into it" now, but does she realize she will have to be "into it" for the rest of her life? It's like how she had to go to bible study even when she didn't feel like it. Does she realize that? IDK.

Paige is such a towering moron at this point that she becomes a liability, in terms of story-telling value, to say nothing of her value as an espionage asset.

I never understand why television writers think that writing a character stupid is a good way to tell a story. I know it's often easier to advance a plot by doing so, but c'mon, writers; make an effort.

[hellmouse]

I don't know if Paige is really stupid. Some of what can appear as stupidity is often just youth and inexperience. But she is naive and always has been. The problem for me is that there isn't enough time left in the show for Paige to grow out of her naivete. It's frustrating to think that despite three (?) years of training during the time jump, she still is so relatively immature.

[Bannon]

35 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I don't know if Paige is really stupid. Some of what can appear as stupidity is often just youth and inexperience. But she is naive and always has been. The problem for me is that there isn't enough time left in the show for Paige to grow out of her naivete. It's frustrating to think that despite three (?) years of training during the time jump, she still is so relatively immature.

She's a student at George Washington University, with aspirations of a career in the State Department, DoD, CIA, etc., who is utterly ignorant of the basic facts pertaining to the obscure historical event known as "World War II". Her mother is engaged in a mass murder spree right under her nose, sometimes literally, and she has displayed almost zero curiosity about it. She has displayed nothing but blind credulity with regard to her mother's attempt to indoctrinate her. 

That isn't naivete. That's numbskullery, and the problem is that, from a storytelling perspective, it's kind of boring. Gets the writer's workday done by Happy Hour, however.

[qtpye]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

She's a student at George Washington University, with aspirations of a career in the State Department, DoD, CIA, etc., who is utterly ignorant of the basic facts pertaining to the obscure historical event known as "World War II". Her mother is engaged in a mass murder spree right under her nose, sometimes literally, and she has displayed almost zero curiosity about it. She has displayed nothing but blind credulity with regard to her mother's attempt to indoctrinate her. 

That isn't naivete. That's numbskullery, and the problem is that, from a storytelling perspective, it's kind of boring. Gets the writer's workday done by Happy Hour, however.

"I hear spies sometimes use sex in their jobs" Forget about intellectual curiosity and sophistication...she has never ever seen or heard of a James Bond movie.

Edited May 2, 2018 by qtpye

[candle96]

23 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Stan's bosses are going to wonder how it was humanly possible for the Jennings to live across the street from him for so long without him having the slightest clue that they are Soviet spies.

Agreed, and I think that makes Phillip coming to Stan as extremely dangerous. Stan might just kill him then and there, a combination of pure anger and betrayal, as well as fear that it will tank his FBI career.

That being said, I will royally pissed if we don't get the emotional/series-long payoff of seeing Stan find out his neighbors, particularly his best buddy Phillip, are Russian spies. 

As a general rule, I"m most worried about the fate of Phillip. My American bias - I'm rooting for him to defect, take Henry with him, and run off to California or some other place far away from D.C. But I'm not optimistic it will go that way. 

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, qtpye said:

"I hear spies sometimes use sex in their jobs" Forget about intellectual curiosity and sophistication...she has never ever seen or heard of a James Bond movie.

One of the problems with the writing in this show is that they have too frequently gone the lazy route of James Bondian nonsense, which precludes a conversation between Liz and Paige where Liz tells her to forget the stupid 007 movies as a way of understanding what the job entails.

[candle96]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Paige is such a towering moron at this point that she becomes a liability, in terms of story-telling value, to say nothing of her value as an espionage asset.

I never understand why television writers think that writing a character stupid is a good way to tell a story. I know it's often easier to advance a plot by doing so, but c'mon, writers; make an effort.

If the writers are doing so as a way to make us viewers root for her demise, they're doing a good job.  If Paige ends up dead as a result of all of this, the only ones I'll feel for are Phillip and Henry.

Edited May 2, 2018 by candle96

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, candle96 said:

If the writers are doing so as a way to make us viewers root for her demise, they're doing a good job.  If Paige ends up dead as a result of all of this, the only ones I'll feel for are Phillip and Henry.

Replying in the Paige thread.

[qtpye]

Just now, Bannon said:

One of the problems with the writing in this show is that they have too frequently gone the lazy route of James Bondian nonsense, which precludes a conversation between Liz and Paige where Liz tells her to forget the stupid 007 movies as a way of understanding what the job entails.

The fast forwarding of three years has robbed the viewers the insight as to how E answered a million questions about why she does what she does and how she got Paige so on board. Since the actress playing Paige is not nuanced, it feels like she must have never asked them, which is the opposite of what a curious and intelligent person would do.

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, qtpye said:

The fast forwarding of three years has robbed the viewers the insight as to how E answered a million questions about why she does what she does and how she got Paige so on board. Since the actress playing Paige is not nuanced, it feels like she must have never asked them, which is the opposite of what a curious and intelligent person would do.

I mean, it is 1987, and it is JUST NOW that Paige is learning of how the Soviet experience of WWII informs Soviet Intelligence? Egads.

[Bannon]

I really do wonder if the 3 year jump was planned from the beginning. This story could have been so much better told if 6 seasons had been more evenly spaced from 1981 through 1987.

[Clanstarling]

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I really do wonder if the 3 year jump was planned from the beginning. This story could have been so much better told if 6 seasons had been more evenly spaced from 1981 through 1987.

I have a feeling it wasn't. I do think they had a specific yearly plan that went out the window. (Not based on anything I read, my opinion only)

Edited May 2, 2018 by Clanstarling

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

I hear spies sometimes use sex in their jobs" Forget about intellectual curiosity and sophistication...she has never ever seen or heard of a James Bond movie.

If James Bond is going to be an espionage touchstone, where are all the fancy gadgets?

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Erin9 said:

But Elizabeth’s op is off the books, unsanctioned by top leadership. So- who is the traitor? 

Depends on your POV. I find that to be one of the most interesting things about this season. 

I really am surprised how many people seem to take it as a given that Philip's the traitor when the show has laid out that Elizabeth is supporting a coup to sabotage her leader's position in important peace talks and possibly assassinate him. Oleg has also laid out that supporting honest peace talks with the US does not mean helping the US at the expense of the USSR. 

It's fitting that the show brought back the colonel now general this season. I've seen people suggest that Philip will become a double agent to pay for Henry's school and it seems like exactly the kind of misunderstanding Elizabeth had with the colonel/general. He was an idealist. He wasn't vulnerable to blackmail. Philip is also an idealist. He's willing to risk his life to do what he thinks is right. That's what, presumably, he's doing with Kimmy here. Part of what they do is identify what motivates the person. 

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

That's what I love about this show - the spying is very interesting, but the complicated relationships - with people and the truth, are what I watch for. Some hit home more than others.

This makes me suddenly think of the scene with Oleg and Stan earlier in the season when Oleg confronted him over his making that tape to blackmail him. Stan defended himself and he was speaking honestly--he really did put himself out there to protect Oleg from that plan. But he still made the tape earlier. The two of them started their relationship as adversaries and they've never really been able to shed that. When Oleg gave Stan the info on William it was because he thought it was the right thing to do, not because of his feelings about Stan (beyond knowing that Stan was a pretty upright FBI guy). Stan, imo, in large part wanted to be a hero too in response to what Oleg did. They also have Nina in common, but they both failed her. 

So it's slightly different than Philip with Martha and Kimmy, who were people with whom he created intimate personal relationships. Even though Philip was concealing who he really was, he was touched by them. In fact, he was touched by both of them in specific, similar ways. Both women were caring about others and him. The two moments that seem really important for him is the moment when Martha says she wants to adopt to share loves with others and Kimmy praying for Jim and his son. That's central to both those relationships is that shared loneliness and appreciation of kindness. 

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

"Into it" is such a wierd phrase for Paige to say. But I think it's deliberate (at least if the writers agree with my response to the phrase). When I hear someone say they're "into" something, to me that means it's something for fun, a hobby, or a passing fancy. "I'm really into Game of Thrones" or "I'm into scrapbooking."  It just doesn't come across as serious to me - especially when talking about the spy game. Which I think is still more game than serious work to Paige.

Yes! I think you're right. It's a line that absolutely makes it about a hobby Paige is into (Elizabeth tells Paige that church "isn't really my thing"--similar expression) and it's in a moment where Paige clearly *could* be saying something far more intelligent. Her father's come to her apartment to talk to her. He's started the conversation by talking about himself and how he relates to her. Not only does she cut off whatever he's trying to say but she uses this phrase to describe it. She doesn't take his invitation to talk about why this is important to her. Doesn't try to talk to how she thinks he feels--for instance, by saying that she knows he doesn't want her to do this and worries for her, doesn't think she'll be happy, but this is why she wants to do it. She does the opposite, uses a teenspeak word that diminishes both her commitment and his objections to it. 

It could be because she's trying to freeze Philip out even more, like he just doesn't "get it" so she can't even talk to him about it. But that would make her very immature on so many levels. Not least because she's apparently still incapable of seeing her father (her mother too, but her dad's the one here) as a person with a complex history who has actual experience in exactly what she's talking about and is actually still "into it" more than she is.

Or else it's that Paige wouldn't really be capable of saying anything with more substance because actually she doesn't get it. It just seems like the use of this placeholder language has to be deliberate. We hear over and over that Paige "gets it" without anyone articulating what she gets and with it really feeling as if nobody's talking about the same thing when they use the phrase. (Elizabeth seems to use "get it" to stand in for things so big and complex they can't be explained; Paige uses it to stand in for something obvious and simple and D'uh!) "Into it" is another phrase like that.

The third possibility that would be a harsh criticism of the writers is that they've failed to come up with a real pov for Paige so they're the ones who are covering up the holes in their story by using this kind of language. But that's pretty extreme and doesn't go along with the kind of deep analysis the actors regularly talk about doing on the script. If they talk to MR about what might be behind his stumbling half-sentences in the S3 finale there's no way they don't have some idea for what Paige means by "into it." 

Just realized it's interesting how it contrasts to Kimmy's phrase that Jim is "stuck." That's also a placeholder, but in their case as Philip says here, she's right. They both know what she means only if only Philip knows the details.

3 hours ago, hellmouse said:

What if through some turn of events Elizabeth tells Paige that it's over, she's not cut out for spying, and they're going to stop. I feel like Paige wouldn't accept it, and would do something dumb to try to prove that she really can handle it (kind of like Hans, although probably not murder). I also don't know if Claudia would accept it. Maybe she'd start meeting with Paige in secret.

The way Paige has been written it's almost inconceivable that Paige would accept it. I don't know what all she'd do--I agree Claudia might happily meet with her behind her parents' backs. But she'd be furious at being cut out of this--specifically furious at her parents. Either focusing on her mother or her father. She's never yet shown any real interest in the reason she's allegedly doing this. It's all about who she is and how this is her identity now. Elizabeth would not be allowed to take that away from her. I think she'd do something really dumb. Hans' actions were at least logical in context. I doubt Paige's would be.

52 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I really do wonder if the 3 year jump was planned from the beginning. This story could have been so much better told if 6 seasons had been more evenly spaced from 1981 through 1987.

It definitely doesn't feel planned to me. I think they were surprised at how squashed the timeline wound up being in earlier seasons and just still wanted to end at Glasnost. I'd bet they started in 1981 expecting to cover a year a season or something.

[Dowel Jones]

2 hours ago, candle96 said:

Stan might just kill him then and there, a combination of pure anger and betrayal, as well as fear that it will tank his FBI career.

And then get his beer back from Philip's refrigerator.

[MisterBluxom]

20 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, using the modifier "may" is selling my dog short.

I think there are probably many instances where I'd prefer to have a good dog protect me than any protection an FBI agent ever could provide.

[Erin9]

@sistermagpie

I’m not sure why Philip is seen as more of a traitor than Elizabeth either. She’s the one going against Gorbachev. Philip is also supported by his (their) direct boss- Arkady. 

Maybe it’s because they keep reiterating how much danger Oleg and Philip are in, but that’s because upper KGB leadership are the hardliners, and they’d simply execute them if they found out. They would consider P and O to be traitors. 

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I’m not sure why Philip is seen as more of a traitor than Elizabeth either. She’s the one going against Gorbachev. Philip is also supported by his (their) direct boss- Arkady. 

 

I feel like part of it might also just be that Elizabeth defines herself as what loyalty looks like and it often seems like the showrunners talk about her that way too so people just think that way too. So it's almost conditioned: if you're against Elizabeth you must be against the USSR. And if Philip's going rogue it's because he's evolving into an American, even though this season is literally Soviet vs. Soviet and needs everyone involved to be invested in the USSR to do what they're doing. 

Really, there's even the added wrinkle that this whole plan of Elizabeth's was about Mexico City, as she said to Claudia. It's not coming from the top. Elizabeth herself was actually cutting off the information they were getting from Breland (head of the Soviet Division!) for this coup. So objectively he and Elizabeth are both sabotaging the KGB's plans for their own reasons. Arkady would have just wanted to keep Philip in place. It's like when she brought the artist to the party--her Mexico City job and her regular summit job are in conflict. She keeps risking the official job for the other one.

Though maybe the way it's written is partly to blame for that because I still feel like the show isn't giving the Oleg/Philip part the weight it deserves somehow. I don't know what I feel the problem is, but it still feels to me like they're doing Elizabeth the superhero with Oleg and Philip is a side plot. Maybe that's just something coming from me, though. Or that it's just inherent in what they can do--that is, they've got plenty of excuses to have Claudia and Elizabeth talk about Russia while Philip and Oleg can't even really talk to each other. (Though it seems like if they wanted to they could arrange that in some way.)

Then there's the added weight of Paige, who's supposed to be this next generation spy just starting out, but again that's all about Elizabeth and Claudia's pov. They don't even seem to be doing things to emphasize how this is another way that Paige is clueless or like the ultimate child of immigrants who identifies herself as belonging to a country with no connection to the actual country. It's just another weird thing that Paige is a traitor to her own country whose politics she's at least familiar with while being completely unaware of the important changes going on in the country she claims to be loyal to now. She's just hitching herself to the memories of Claudia and Elizabeth. 

That also adds to the idea that the spy plot is all centered on Elizabeth (with Claudia and Paige both being part of that) with all her crazy missions and murders. Meanwhile the real spy plot is more like a spy plot should be--it's quiet and not drawing attention to itself so it gets missed even though it's got the most at stake and the most danger.

Edited May 2, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Or else it's that Paige wouldn't really be capable of saying anything with more substance because actually she doesn't get it. It just seems like the use of this placeholder language has to be deliberate. We hear over and over that Paige "gets it" without anyone articulating what she gets and with it really feeling as if nobody's talking about the same thing when they use the phrase. (Elizabeth seems to use "get it" to stand in for things so big and complex they can't be explained; Paige uses it to stand in for something obvious and simple and D'uh!) "Into it" is another phrase like that.

Love the parsing of the phrase - especially Elizabeth's use of it. I always laugh when she says it because, to me, it is wishful thinking of the grandest sort. I think you're right about Paige's use, and I think it has an additional beat of "shut up now, jeez."

Edited May 2, 2018 by Clanstarling

[jjj]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 8:22 AM, lucindabelle said:

Die Elizabeth.

Okay, for a second I thought you were proposing a title for a German film about Elizabeth. 

[jjj]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 9:22 PM, Pink-n-Green said:

I'll tell you one thing:  if my mother casually mentioned that she used to eat rats, I might have asked a question about it.  Maybe even two!  

As in:  "rat kabob, or rat tartare?"  Because it makes a difference?!