It's the Apocalypse: This show SUCKS! Discuss it Here!

[Persnickety1]

I've been a devout viewer of this show since before S1E1 even aired.  A friend of mine in the biz slipped me a link and I was able to view the premiere a few weeks before it actually aired.  I immediately fell in love with it.  

I remained in love with every single episode through the second season.  The love waxed and waned throughout season 3.  

In season 4, I loved more episodes than not.

In season 5, I had numerous episodes I really enjoyed as well.

In season 6, my love dwindled to just enjoyable...most of the time.

By season 7, I was frustrated with most of the episodes and didn't really particularly enjoy any of them.

This season has had a lot more misses than hits for me.

So, seriously, WTF happened to this show?

I used to immediately blame it on Gimple, but checking out Google I learned that Gimple actually wrote some of my favorite episodes (I had to pick my jaw up from the floor when I saw he wrote The Grove and the season 5 premiere where Carol took down Terminus).  

Maybe it's not Gimple per se as much as Gimple (lacking the "testicular heft" of Darabont) kowtowing to TPTB at AMC?

I'm so confused about how this show could have fallen so far over the seasons.

So, what's the consensus here?  Does anyone have a particular time that can be pinpointed as to when the show started to lose your love?

Any opinions of what might be going on that might have/did contribute to it's steady decline?

I'm usually so fucking snarky, but I'm genuinely curious as to what others' feelings are regarding this.  

[peach]

1 hour ago, Persnickety1 said:

I used to immediately blame it on Gimple, but checking out Google I learned that Gimple actually wrote some of my favorite episodes (I had to pick my jaw up from the floor when I saw he wrote The Grove and the season 5 premiere where Carol took down Terminus).  

I know.  This is the biggest mystery. 

 

1 hour ago, Persnickety1 said:

In season 6, my love dwindled to just enjoyable...most of the time.

Season 6 was when I started to really get aggravated.
~Too Many Characters (which only increases)
~Rehashed Plot:  This is how the world IS now!!!!  Well, duh.
~Black & White writing: Kill'em all vs Kill no one ever
 

1 hour ago, Persnickety1 said:

By season 7, I was frustrated with most of the episodes and didn't really particularly enjoy any of them.

Season 7 was when basically everything turned to crap, and everyone turned into fucking moron.  Starting with stupid plan to lead the stupid herd out of the stupid quarry.  Stupidly.  I went from not really enjoying it to getting actively pissed off.  And the episode where Michonne and Glenn couldn't fight their way out of little town with a handful of zombies, culminating in Glenn falling off the dumpster and getting "eaten" left me texting my BFF with "I WILL NEVER WATCH THIS FUCKING SHOW AGAIN!"  But, I did, of course.  And let them string me along with their stupid dumpster game.  This is also when they started this nonsense of taking the whole season to cover a few days.

I pretty much just watched bits and pieces and followed along here after that nonsense.  I really never felt the same about it again.  But I still always cared about Rick, Carl, Michonne, and Carol.

I cannot even remember when in the timeline Carl got his eye shot out; I guess it was season 7?  But the show did what it just keeps doing- have a shocking moment and never follow up on it.  There's never been any satisfaction or followthru since events at Terminus.  Oh, and Glenn's dead, which frayed the basic fabric of the story.

So, nutshell:  Too many characters, rehashed plot, dragging out the timeline, never following up...and that's before you even get to the Saviors bullshit, which could be its own post.  And this season, add having the characters just switch personality traits at random, and killing one of the most important characters.

There's no reason to care. 

Edited April 9, 2018 by peach
random sentence fragment.

[Black Knight]

1 hour ago, Persnickety1 said:

I used to immediately blame it on Gimple, but checking out Google I learned that Gimple actually wrote some of my favorite episodes (I had to pick my jaw up from the floor when I saw he wrote The Grove and the season 5 premiere where Carol took down Terminus).

It's one thing to write an episode and quite another to plan out and execute a multi-episode arc, much less an entire season. Those things require different skillsets. It's certainly possible for a person to possess both, but there are also quite a few writers who can knock out great episodes but have no idea how to lay out an engaging or coherent season.

[Iguessnot]

2 hours ago, Persnickety1 said:

I've been a devout viewer of this show since before S1E1 even aired.  A friend of mine in the biz slipped me a link and I was able to view the premiere a few weeks before it actually aired.  I immediately fell in love with it.  

I remained in love with every single episode through the second season.  The love waxed and waned throughout season 3.  

In season 4, I loved more episodes than not.

In season 5, I had numerous episodes I really enjoyed as well.

In season 6, my love dwindled to just enjoyable...most of the time.

By season 7, I was frustrated with most of the episodes and didn't really particularly enjoy any of them.

This season has had a lot more misses than hits for me.

So, seriously, WTF happened to this show?

I used to immediately blame it on Gimple, but checking out Google I learned that Gimple actually wrote some of my favorite episodes (I had to pick my jaw up from the floor when I saw he wrote The Grove and the season 5 premiere where Carol took down Terminus).  

Maybe it's not Gimple per se as much as Gimple (lacking the "testicular heft" of Darabont) kowtowing to TPTB at AMC?

I'm so confused about how this show could have fallen so far over the seasons.

So, what's the consensus here?  Does anyone have a particular time that can be pinpointed as to when the show started to lose your love?

Any opinions of what might be going on that might have/did contribute to it's steady decline?

I'm usually so fucking snarky, but I'm genuinely curious as to what others' feelings are regarding this.  

In my opinion that the way they implemented the Negan storyline killed the show. Instead of telling the story -- they teased the story. They bought into their own publicity and fandom, and blinded themselves to the suicidal game they were playing -- playing cat and mouse with the comic readers who were caught up in anticipation. Whispering  a name all season and giving a one minute reveal of Negan in a finale is not storytelling and the non-comic readers knew this. When the head bashing took place after an eenie meenie minie moe and the showrunners still wouldn't tell the story, even the comic readers knew they had been played. 

What a hole to dig out from. 

[ShadowHunter]

The cliffhanger for one thing is something they have to stop. 

I'm starting to get tired of something happening in say Episode 4 then the next two episodes focus on another character then in Episode 7 they go back to what happened in Episode 4. Nuts.

Too many people on this show. At times people are just standing around saying nothing or say two words. 

Time spent on characters we don't like and instead of the ones we do. 

It's also very wash rinse and repeat. Members of the group struggle against an outside force that describes the last few seasons.

I swear we don't see Walker Attacks enough anymore. They pop up but they don't feel like that big of a threat anymore people are the enemy.

They should have not told us about no cure. Why did this start? Will it just stop like it just started? They stopped trying to get any answers. I realize it may not be easy but nobody seems to bring it up even.

[DearEvette]

Pacing  -- too much of nothing happening and the feeling that no time is passing even over the course of several seasons.  They are treading in syrup.

Plotting -- Instead of concentrating on telling an actual story with a beginning, middle, end and set up anticipation each season for the next season, they are too enamored of trying to create 'OMG' moments.  They are attempting to hit all the 'important' milestones in the comic books without the proper connective tissue.  There is no excitement, no anticipation just ok we hit that mark, on to the next one.

Character consistency  -- most anyone who follows a narrative need a character to either identify with or to root for.  The hero's journey is a classic narrative for a reason.   In increasing efforts to create those 'OMG' moments they are relying on shocking kills or introducing characters that are more a collection of personality tics than actual personality.  The problem is the shocking kills end up not really mattering because they don't allow the story to capitalize on them in meaningful ways. They are just used for shock value.  And the new characters are just too flat and ridiculous to actually connect with.  In the meantime the long time characters have become lobotomized or made to do out of character things just to further plot and get to the 'OMG' moments.

Not understanding your audience -- The extreme close ups.  The stand alone episodes that follow one character.  The dialogue that attempts to be meaningful and deep.  All of this just feels like they are desperately attempting to infuse art house sensibilities into a show that really should just embrace its Saturday matinee adventure pedigree.  People aren't trying to watch a Wim Wenders film.  This is a comic book.  Stay in your lane and just deliver the thrills.

[Smad]

10 hours ago, Persnickety1 said:

I used to immediately blame it on Gimple, but checking out Google I learned that Gimple actually wrote some of my favorite episodes (I had to pick my jaw up from the floor when I saw he wrote The Grove and the season 5 premiere where Carol took down Terminus).  

Maybe it's not Gimple per se as much as Gimple (lacking the "testicular heft" of Darabont) kowtowing to TPTB at AMC?

As someone already said, there is a difference between being a writer and being a showrunner. It requires a different skill set. I think Gimple is an ok writer but a showrunner he is not. He has no idea about pacing, character development/consistency and storytelling in general. I still don't know why AMC thought he was a good choice, except he was probably cheap and would tow the company line unlike the previous showrunners.

The sickness storyline, the Lolicops and then the walker quarry/walkers coming upon Alexandria showed that Gimple doesn't know how pacing is done.

Even the long running characters are crap due to inconsitency. Morgan goes from one insanity to the next, Carol always gets weird beats when they need her away from a particular storyline, Daryl is nothing but a mumbly dumbo with stupid hair whose motivations no one can track, Michonne is nothing but Rick's shadow now, Rick himself is a walking contradiction who makes speeches and then never delivers and Maggie is...there.

I don't mind character focused episodes as long as they actually matter. Most times whatever the characters did doesn't matter anymore or is undone the next time we see them. This got worse over the years. I didn't mind the second half of S4 with the characters scattered all around because it had lasting effects on people, relationships and character development. Except the useless nonsense that was the Beth/Daryl team up.

S6 is when for me it really started to fall apart. From the quarry nonsense, to dumpster fake out, to Morgan, to Carol and then the Saviors. After it only got worse. Once S6 came along with the plan to bring in the Saviors, they said to hell with character driven drama. It was all about the cheap deaths for shock value (or fake out deaths), B movie action where bullets fly everywhere and no one gets hit and characters more than ever before were just dumb in order to tell what little story there was and get them in a pickle or to kill them off.

[ShadowHunter]

The Original group feels two separated from each other. Id like to see more interaction between them. How come Carol and Rick can't share a scene together just them?

[diebartdie]

On 4/9/2018 at 10:37 PM, DearEvette said:

 Stay in your lane and just deliver the thrills.

I agree with all of your post but love this sentence the most.

I think these days, there is just way too much good tv out there. Seems weird to say but really, it's true. I've been a fan of the zombie genre for well over 40 years now, that is what brought me to TWD to begin with but these days, it is hardly a zombie show. I read an article somewhere recently that laid out possible ways to fix the show. The whole premise started with the special effects make up. The author was saying, the special effects make up are always so top notch (and seriously, that has not faltered in all these years, Nicotero rules the zombie make up game), everything else should be AT LEAST up to that par. I think in previous seasons it mostly was but everything else has gone down and down.

Let's be real about a couple things though. This show is still (marginally) a ZOMBIE show and as such, it has ALWAYS been pretty disgusting. The gross out stuff is the basis of the entire thing (that sounds weird and I know lots of people dont want that to be true but it is. EVERYTHING else is just laid on top). This show has ALWAYS had people doing stupid fucking annoying bullshit. EVEN Darbont had stupid shit, it is the nature of LIFE for people to do stupid, self destructive shit. Even our heroes are just stupid people. Of course most heroes (especially action adventure heroes of zombie shows) are EXPECTED to rise above and do heroic shit from time to time. Rick, Michonne, Carol, Carl, Daryl have all had BIG DAMN HERO moments and every one of them have had gibbering idiot moments. It's just that now things are so distorted and messed up, it is really hard to see Daryl as a hero....it is impossible (for me anyway) t see Rick as a hero. THAT is a problem.

IDK, this is another sort of odd thing but when this show started, I did not have cataracts. I do now so for me (and apparently LOTS OF OTHER PEOPLE TOO), filming scene after scene after VERY IMPORTANT SCENE in pitch black darkity dark dark darkness means I have NO CLUE what is happening, I get frustrated, pissed off and eventually indifferent. You dont want me to see show? Fine, I wont try AT ALL.

There are just too many great shows out there now! The Magicians, Legends of Tomorrow, Legion, Black Lightning, Z Nation, hell even Face Off for my special effects make up fix! Shows that respect their audiences, shows that put 100% of the budget on screen, well lit. Shows that construct plots that may be wacky but still make sense, still tell compelling stories, stories that help make more sense of this weird world we find ourselves in these days.

I'm rambling, I know but I feel myself letting go of TWD. Maybe this is stupid but for me, the season finales of The Magicians and Legends of Tomorrow just rocked so hard that I'm beginning to accept that TWD will NEVER be that good ever again (and those shows are nothing at all similar to TWD). I think for me, maybe TWD went from a compelling story exploring the gray areas of life, one where there are good guys who have to make very hard choices and bad guys who hack off old men's heads just because they are full of themselves, to an unwholesome mess where everyone is just a shit head with no heart, no kindness, no love and no fucks to give. I never did believe the world would go so shitty if the ZA happened so now I just find the whole thing repulsive.

Plus, Rick should have shot Negan instead of the windows.

[HighMaintenance]

TWD has always had its off episodes, but the big slide into true ridiculousness started when Camp Dinner Bell arrived at Alexandria.  The storylines took our original cast and threw them in with a cast of characters with no backstories, plots that never fully developed into anything satisfying, and lengthy episodes with personal stories that weren't all that interesting.  Of course, this is when the show had events that were either handwaved away or had to be explained on Talking Dead in order to make any sense of them.

Deanna recording video interviews with Rick, Michonne, Carol, etc. , Her asshole sons who were full of hubris and got themselves killed. The sub-plot with Dr. Porchdick beating his family.  Rick getting all schmoopy over Dr. Porchdick's wife and then having flashbacks of her (totally out of left field for this show) while she gets killed by walkers.  The "Wolves" who were foreshadowed for half a season and then after one episode of carnage - vanished, more or less. Mopey Enid, a whole episode about her Just Survive Somehow schtick. Morgan and the cheesemaker.  Dr. Porchdick's youngest crying out "Mom??" while the group tries to sneak through a herd of walkers, only to find out he didn't do that when the season break is over.  Rick pulling a Houdini out of an RV surrounded by walkers - next episode he's running down the road.

[peach]

On 4/11/2018 at 2:23 PM, diebartdie said:

Plus, Rick should have shot Negan instead of the windows.

We all write thoughtful essays on them losing the essence of the show, but, yeah, it also boils down to unforgettable moments like this! 
 

2 hours ago, HighMaintenance said:

 Rick pulling a Houdini out of an RV surrounded by walkers - next episode he's running down the road.

And stuff like this, but at least you can imagine what happened.  Now in 8, we have a guy strapped to a board in a garbage dump instantly armed with a gun, a flaming flare, and his opponents most treasured possession.  That image could be a banner photo for this thread.

[AngelaHunter]

5 hours ago, HighMaintenance said:

Rick pulling a Houdini out of an RV surrounded by walkers - next episode he's running down the road.

That particularly left me all WTF? I actually got revved up at that ep, dying to see how Rick escaped. Oh, well - don't ask us! We don't know! He just did. Use your imaginations, people.

Negan's first appearance, when he talked all through the night into the next morning? Took away any and all supense, all drama or dread or whatever, made it boring as hell and left us just wishing he would shut up. Not the reaction desired to a really really BIG BAD.

I've seen other examples when seemingly competent writers are elevated to show runners and are clearly out of their element. The result is a mess like this.

On 4/9/2018 at 7:48 PM, peach said:

"I WILL NEVER WATCH THIS FUCKING SHOW AGAIN!"  But, I did, of course

How many of use would be watching this if not for this forum? I know I wouldn't.

[toodywoody]

I stopped after the head bashing. But still read here. Now with this season I go days without coming over here.

For me it was about the same bullshit over and over. I know they want to follow the comics, but with the ways things have gone they haven't. 

Also, I want more of the rebuilding of society. I want more of people trying to make bullets,  trying to make medicine, restarting electric plants, stuff like that. I guess I am thinking of The Stand too much. Just feels like the Negan shit took too long and then went about it the wrong way and then it was the same shit as before. Just want something new. And here the show is with a whole 2 fucking seasons to the same Negan shit.

[peach]

21 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

How many of use would be watching this if not for this forum? I know I wouldn't.

Same!

[AngelaHunter]

44 minutes ago, toodywoody said:

I know they want to follow the comics, but with the ways things have gone they haven't. 

Their edict of "Follow the comics" seems to be totally arbitrary, seemingly dependant on what TPTB think may be cool or neato. Had they really wanted to remain faithful to that they might not have made Andrea into a shallow irritant and a total fuckup who seemed to be universally hated and would have let her be a badass who hooked up with Rick. Oops, couldn't do that. They wouldn't have, like - y'know - killed Carl either. That's like the direct opposite of following the comics (which I never read). I agree with their decision to not follow them for practical purposes, such as Rick losing an arm but that doesn't really change the story so no biggie.

35 minutes ago, peach said:

Same!

I've watched very few shows, but usually stick with them to the end. None of them have deteriorated to this level, but I did stop watching "The Good Wife" after following it for quite some time. Getting' eye-rolling stupid? An ep with an extended scene of Archie and her ex smashing eggs over each other's heads? I'm out as of right then. I may have stayed with it had I known there were forums to shred discuss it. To watch something that has become as abominable and insulting as TWD with no outlet for the annoyance and hatred would be no fun at all. Think I'll go watch some eps of the Roadrunner now. At least the characters are consistant and the stories are much better.

[momlyd]

We don't have cable so I watch the show on Netflix. I watched until Negan showed up and then quit. The other seasons are available but I just can't do it. For me, Negan is just too close to the real world of loud-mouthed narcissists leading stupid people over the cliff. 

 

Also, the shine had gone off the show. I told people when I first started watching it that I did so because it raised interesting existential questions: 1) could I personally survive the world going to hell like that? and, 2) if I survived, what would I need to do to protect myself and others I am in relationship with and could I do it? and finally, 3) who are the real monsters - the zombies or the people for whom all social boundaries have been erased and are using that advantage against me and mine?

 

Those questions were no longer answered after Terminus. They could have been when the group showed up in sheltered Alexandria and brought death with them - or at least the experience of fighting for their lives and mostly succeeding. Alexandria had a lot to learn and our group had a lot to teach and ---------- that was kinda it. 

 

I am glad to have this forum to lurk and catch up on stuff, though. Brilliant analysis going on!

[toodywoody]

I should have clarified my post better about the comics. Some things they follow the comics to a t. Others, Like Andrea, Carl, Abraham, Negan they don't.

Either follow the comics or don't. Either make this your own show away from the comics or don't.

As soon as the thought of Negan occurred is when the show started slipping. The show started having episodes about whatever then 10 weeks later you get back to whatever it was. I agree with there are too many characters now. They should have made a choice to either wrap the Negan shit up or not even introduce that part. It has just been mass chaos and stupidity and long ass winded monologues since him and his dumbasses have arrived.

But getting back to what I originally said, in the beginning there were signs that they were going to build up society again and then it all went down hill and all it is about now is fighting the next big bad. There is no growth in the show and it has turned boring. You know Rick and company are going to fight Negan, fight Negan, fight Negan, fight Negan. Just so fucking over it. When they came to Alexandria I thought well maybe this is the start, they can grow crops, fix fences, make bullets, fix electricity, make antibiotics, etc. But I guess that was too much to ask for. For me the show is going nowhere. There is no growth and it is all about Negan and the bullshit war now. Same thing just happens over and over, throw in a dramatic character death and then here we go again.

Edited April 13, 2018 by toodywoody

[peach]

I think the IDEA of Negan was good, a powerful group demanding tribute from other groups.  And this strong group runs as a cult, with the I Am Negan thing.  They could have made that interesting.  It was intriguing when Team Family was trying to figure out what was going on.  But then it just amounted to Negan's big mouth all the time.  Blah blah blah blah blaaaaah.  Then they added Simon blah blahing with almost the same kind of dialogue.  On Rick's side, we had Abraham and Eugene talking like complete idiots all.the.time.  Just the worst dialogue/monologue everywhere.  Meanwhile, the core characters barely speak at all, although they let Glenn and Rick occasionally give a speech.  I think the reason a lot of us like Dwight's character is because he actually speaks and acts like a normal person.

Edited to add I forgot about Jadis' stupid manner of speech.

Edited April 13, 2018 by peach

[rab01]

There are so many eye-rollingly stupid moments in this show and even worse decisions by the creators that just thinking of them all gives me a headache. 

Do you think this show can be saved and, if so, how?

I'll start with one idea -- pick 6 characters (up to 5 main cast and one antagonist) and the screenwriter cannot (without special permission) have more than one scene per episode without at least one of those characters, must include at least one scene per episode where more than one of those 6 interact together, cannot center any episode entirely on any character not in that 6 and cannot center any episode entirely on the antagonist.  (Think about it, replace Tara with Michonne in the first Oceanside episode and even it might have been good ...)

[AngelaHunter]

3 hours ago, momlyd said:

Also, the shine had gone off the show. I told people when I first started watching it that I did so because it raised interesting existential questions: 1) could I personally survive the world going to hell like that? and, 2) if I survived, what would I need to do to protect myself and others I am in relationship with and could I do it? and finally, 3) who are the real monsters - the zombies or the people for whom all social boundaries have been erased and are using that advantage against me and mine?

That is exactly why I started watching and why I watch post-apocalytic movies. They need not even have  zombies or other monsters -  just what happens when the world, laws, social covenants and all the amenities we've always known are no longer there? How far would people go to survive? That's a question that has fascinated me. TWD started off that way but now - no one has a conversation that doesn't center around Negan and bullets and no one does anything but run around and shoot stuff and make speeches. I would really love to hear anyone say something like, "I'd give anything for an all-dressed pizza!" or anything else that could be seen as normal, something a real person might say.  But no - run around and shoot shoot shoot and then whine they have no bullets. They've become video game characters.

[Persnickety1]

On 4/12/2018 at 12:13 PM, HighMaintenance said:

TWD has always had its off episodes, but the big slide into true ridiculousness started when Camp Dinner Bell arrived at Alexandria.  The storylines took our original cast and threw them in with a cast of characters with no backstories, plots that never fully developed into anything satisfying, and lengthy episodes with personal stories that weren't all that interesting.  Of course, this is when the show had events that were either handwaved away or had to be explained on Talking Dead in order to make any sense of them.

Deanna recording video interviews with Rick, Michonne, Carol, etc. , Her asshole sons who were full of hubris and got themselves killed. The sub-plot with Dr. Porchdick beating his family.  Rick getting all schmoopy over Dr. Porchdick's wife and then having flashbacks of her (totally out of left field for this show) while she gets killed by walkers.  The "Wolves" who were foreshadowed for half a season and then after one episode of carnage - vanished, more or less. Mopey Enid, a whole episode about her Just Survive Somehow schtick. Morgan and the cheesemaker.  Dr. Porchdick's youngest crying out "Mom??" while the group tries to sneak through a herd of walkers, only to find out he didn't do that when the season break is over.  Rick pulling a Houdini out of an RV surrounded by walkers - next episode he's running down the road.

I'm still pissed at AMC et al for that fuckery.  I waited all that time wanting to see how someone was going to shut up that kid but alas no such luck.

I think that's when the continuity of this show really started becoming an issue for me, after a lot of other inconsistencies.  Combined with the "Mom? MOM? MOM?" shenanigans and the way the group was standing around chatting like they were at a sporting event instead of trying to sneak through way through a herd of walkers also pissed me off.

I'm still pissed off that in season 4 we didn't get to see the Coral/Michonne reunion, just Rick saying "It's for you" when he saw it was Michonne knocking on the door.  

I think the preponderance of posters are right about Gimple.

Whilst he may be a gifted writer, he just has no clue about how to reign in all the writers and keep things moving along and maintain contuinity and consistency.  

This new development of being able to transmit the walker virus through blood is ridiculous in light of the fact we've seen both Rick and Abe cut themselves with the very same weapon they were using to dispatch walkers with no ill effects.  Ugh.  

Edited April 13, 2018 by Persnickety1

[heisenberg]

2 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

They've become video game characters.

Yes.

[peach]

2 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

That is exactly why I started watching and why I watch post-apocalytic movies. They need not even have  zombies or other monsters -  just what happens when the world, laws, social covenants and all the amenities we've always known are no longer there? How far would people go to survive? That's a question that has fascinated me. TWD started off that way but now - no one has a conversation that doesn't center around Negan and bullets and no one does anything but run around and shoot stuff and make speeches. I would really love to hear anyone say something like, "I'd give anything for an all-dressed pizza!" or anything else that could be seen as normal, something a real person might say.  But no - run around and shoot shoot shoot and then whine they have no bullets. They've become video game characters.

Even their speeches are generic and vague and not particularly inspiring.  These people are Americans.  Southerners, even. I mean, when deciding or speaking about fighting for their freedom from Negan, this idea never comes up?  African-Americans have no thoughts on being enslaved by this blowhard?  Even if civilization has crumbled, everyone's lost their identity as independent people in a year or two?  That if people have the remake the world, they sure as shit don't want to be slaves in it?  I watched most of the first season of Revolution, which...was not a good show, for other reasons.  But one thing that I found interesting was how, 15 years after the collapse,

Spoiler

the new govt that was trying to force itself on people had outlawed the American flag, and if they found it, that person was shot or something like that, because they were trying to stamp out even the memory of our country, so people would obey.

It's just one of the many available, obvious themes they never explore.   Well, maybe a small amount in season 3 when they were dealing with Woodbury.  But not much.  They opt for some generic "Togetherness" theme that doesn't really have any bite.

We do have the mystery character who's hearkening them back to medieval times.  Like...wut?  Maybe this show has too many British people in it. lol

Edited April 13, 2018 by peach

[AngelaHunter]

43 minutes ago, Persnickety1 said:

the way the group was standing around chatting like they were at a sporting event instead of trying to sneak through way through a herd of walkers also pissed me off.

Argh! They stopped for a team meeting (where Rick decides that indeed FPP in whom he has zero trust and had threatened to kill is the perfect guardian for Judith) in the midst of a zombie herd and no zombie so much as bumped into one of them, even by accident.

 

24 minutes ago, peach said:

We do have the mystery character who's hearkening them back to medieval times.  Like...wut?

Hey, the plans for building an ancient Roman-type aqueduct has merit! Think of the possibilities! Ignore me. I'm drunk.

[Persnickety1]

37 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Argh! They stopped for a team meeting (where Rick decides that indeed FPP in whom he has zero trust and had threatened to kill is the perfect guardian for Judith) in the midst of a zombie herd and no zombie so much as bumped into one of them, even by accident.

 

Hey, the plans for building an ancient Roman-type aqueduct has merit! Think of the possibilities! Ignore me. I'm drunk.

Yes and stood around right in the middle of the herd debating whether PITA Sam should be allowed to stay with them or go with FPP.  

Unfuckingbelievable.  

I will admit that as frustrating as that entire episode was with its consistencies, it was *almost* worth it to see that entire annoying family get wiped out in one fell swoop.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Persnickety1

[AngelaHunter]

On 4/9/2018 at 6:22 PM, Persnickety1 said:

Gimple actually wrote some of my favorite episodes (I had to pick my jaw up from the floor when I saw he wrote The Grove

I didn't like that ep. Carol's admission of killing Karen to Tyreese - she's a woman who lost her child, yet Tyreese's loss of his sort-of g/f of a few minutes was supposed to be just as traumatic. I also didn't like how both of them took off for a stroll, telling "Deez nuts" jokes and leaving Lizzie in charge of her little sister and baby Judith, when Carol knew full well that Lizzie had gone psycho - seemed freakishly out of character.

[Persnickety1]

15 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I didn't like that ep. Carol's admission of killing Karen to Tyreese - she's a woman who lost her child, yet Tyreese's loss of his sort-of g/f of a few minutes was supposed to be just as traumatic. I also didn't like how both of them took off for a stroll, telling "Deez nuts" jokes and leaving Lizzie in charge of her little sister and baby Judith, when Carol knew full well that Lizzie had gone psycho - seemed freakishly out of character.

I didn't like that little stroll, either, because it was clear to both Tyreese and Carol at that point that Lizzie was very disturbed and had apparently been so even before the ZA.  

I giggle at the Tyreese/Karen "relationship"...I remember in an earlier episode she wouldn't even have sex with him because it was too soon so...She's just not that into you, Tyreese.  

Maybe that's why she wasn't included in his glorious send off that inexplicably included The Governor and Beth.

[AngelaHunter]

12 minutes ago, Persnickety1 said:

She's just not that into you, Tyreese.  

No, she wasn't and not even the romantic nosegay of flowers changed that.

 

13 minutes ago, Persnickety1 said:

Maybe that's why she wasn't included in his glorious send off that inexplicably included The Governor and Beth.

The psychedelic, hippy-dippy, interminable send off! I think this was the ep that ushered in the tragic and so very misguided, "We are artistes" era.

[Persnickety1]

10 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

No, she wasn't and not even the romantic nosegay of flowers changed that.

 

The psychedelic, hippy-dippy, interminable send off! I think this was the ep that ushered in the tragic and so very misguided, "We are artistes" era.

The only part of his death episode I enjoyed was the last few minutes, when it showed the gang doing everything they possibly could to try to save him...and then had to pull over and drag him out of the van before he turned.  I admit I did giggle at the quickness with which they bolted from that van (not that I blamed them, dude was HUGE, I couldn't imagine being trapped in that vehicle with a walker Tyreese!).  Other than that, I found the entire episode was dreadful.  

[Smad]

19 hours ago, momlyd said:

Also, the shine had gone off the show. I told people when I first started watching it that I did so because it raised interesting existential questions: 1) could I personally survive the world going to hell like that? and, 2) if I survived, what would I need to do to protect myself and others I am in relationship with and could I do it? and finally, 3) who are the real monsters - the zombies or the people for whom all social boundaries have been erased and are using that advantage against me and mine?

This is exactly what kept me with the show at the start. I like apocalyptic shows/movies for exactly these reasons. I imagine myself in such a scenario. What would I need to do to survive? Could I survive or adept? Where would I go to shack up? And so on. This was also a hugely frustrating thing with the show and it's character from S1 on. Why are you camping out in the open? Why are you not setting up defenses on the farm/prison? Because if it were me in a ZA, that's the first thing I would do. Why are you not insisting right off the bat that everyone learn how to handle all kinds of weapons to defend themselves? Why are you staying at the prison with it's constantly caving in fences (because you can't be bothered with actual defenses) instead of moving into Woodbury? Why is no one on watch right now? On and on it goes.

At the beginning this was fine. Because I thought these people wrestling with this new situation and making mistakes is all to human. But when they learned nothing, when the stupidity of a collective of people is so damn high, when there needs to be a new 'morality center' every Season (despite the fact that Glenn was a perfect balance for that so we didn't need one)...I just can't anymore.

12 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I didn't like that ep. Carol's admission of killing Karen to Tyreese - she's a woman who lost her child, yet Tyreese's loss of his sort-of g/f of a few minutes was supposed to be just as traumatic. I also didn't like how both of them took off for a stroll, telling "Deez nuts" jokes and leaving Lizzie in charge of her little sister and baby Judith, when Carol knew full well that Lizzie had gone psycho - seemed freakishly out of character.

What wasn't out of character for Carol that Season? The woman NEVER let Sophia out of her sight, often keeping her practically attached to her hip. I hated that she had to lose her child while the Grimes parents, who couldn't be bothered to watch their kid who ran off constantly and did dumb shit and even got people killed, were allowed to keep theirs. So when she constantly left those girls alone I was screaming foul because that's not Carol.

[Persnickety1]

2 hours ago, Smad said:

This is exactly what kept me with the show at the start. I like apocalyptic shows/movies for exactly these reasons. I imagine myself in such a scenario. What would I need to do to survive? Could I survive or adept? Where would I go to shack up? And so on. This was also a hugely frustrating thing with the show and it's character from S1 on. Why are you camping out in the open? Why are you not setting up defenses on the farm/prison? Because if it were me in a ZA, that's the first thing I would do. Why are you not insisting right off the bat that everyone learn how to handle all kinds of weapons to defend themselves? Why are you staying at the prison with it's constantly caving in fences (because you can't be bothered with actual defenses) instead of moving into Woodbury? Why is no one on watch right now? On and on it goes.

At the beginning this was fine. Because I thought these people wrestling with this new situation and making mistakes is all to human. But when they learned nothing, when the stupidity of a collective of people is so damn high, when there needs to be a new 'morality center' every Season (despite the fact that Glenn was a perfect balance for that so we didn't need one)...I just can't anymore.

What wasn't out of character for Carol that Season? The woman NEVER let Sophia out of her sight, often keeping her practically attached to her hip. I hated that she had to lose her child while the Grimes parents, who couldn't be bothered to watch their kid who ran off constantly and did dumb shit and even got people killed, were allowed to keep theirs. So when she constantly left those girls alone I was screaming foul because that's not Carol.

^^^ This!

I still roll my eyes at the episode in the season 1 attack on CDB because they were all so laid back enjoying the fish fry and beer and no one was on lookout. 

Especially in light of the fact Glen had pulled into the camp with the car alarm blaring and everyone was concerned that sound was going to attract walkers.

But not concerned enough to beef up look out patrol.  Nope...there sits CDB, tossing back cold ones and eating fish without a care in the world.

As you said, though, that was different early on.  It was a relatively new situation they were all dealing with, mistakes were expected to be made, and I can see where everyone would have wanted to forget about all of the insanity going on around them and have a couple of hours of relative normalcy, but that's a rare luxury in their new ZA world, which they never seem to figure out.  

At least Ed got his comeuppance in that attack.  That was satisfying.  

And had I been Carol in that episode, screw the walkers, I would have bitten Lori's hand off for forcibly holding me down and keeping me away from my child.  

[Meredith Quill]

18 hours ago, peach said:

Maybe this show has too many British people in it. lol

Or not enough? ;)

[AngelaHunter]

6 hours ago, Persnickety1 said:

And had I been Carol in that episode, screw the walkers, I would have bitten Lori's hand off for forcibly holding me down and keeping me away from my child. 

Do you mean when Sophia was coming out of the barn? If so, that was Daryl holding her back, and really - would you bite that filthy hand?

 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I'm very sure it started way before this point, but IMHO, the show formerly known as The Walking Dead (is a Great F*ing Show) stopped being anywhere near even just good the moment they mistakenly went for the 'star power' of hiring JDM as Negan.  If they had of went with someone not very popular (already), they might not have felt the need to shove Negan's metaphorical dick down the viewers' throats, what with his tweener-level street slang & his making sure we never forget the self-imagined awesomeness of his manhood.  And this isn't even mentioning the Wile E. Coyote'ing of Rick's ability to murder people, in regards to just Negan, to make sure that Negan keeps getting to infect the show with his vile presence.

I know that we're not supposed to like Negan, but when it reaches the point that people are disliking the actor portraying a character as much as the character itself, then you've taken it too far as writers & showrunner(s).  And until the character is removed, there's no changing viewer opinion.

This will be a very unpopular opinion in some circles, but another factor for the show's decline [IMO]?  Forcing the 'Richonne' just because some vocal fans/reviewers were clamoring for it.  I wouldn't be against the pairing if there was that kind of chemistry between the actors, but there isn't.  I don't read the comics - only know some general facts, etc, but I've always wondered how it would have played out on the TV show if the main romantic partner for Rick in the comics was still alive (on the show).

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Forcing the 'Richonne' just because some vocal fans/reviewers were clamoring for it.  I wouldn't be against the pairing if there was that kind of chemistry between the actors, but there isn't.

I agree. Rick went from panting and drooling and sniffing after Jessie and ready to kill the Porchdick so he could get her. A few hours(?) after she croaks and frustrated at the abrupt end to his erotic fantasies, turns his head while sitting on the sofa and there's Michonne. "I guess you'll do," he thinks. "Any port in a storm (or any female within reach) and Jessie got me horny enough to not care with whom I get my freak on." Organic progression of attraction = Zero. Chemistry = Zero. Me =cringing.

[Smad]

14 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

If a WD character's life is in peril, I don't need to know if he or she lives or dies.  I can wait for the new season to begin to find out that individual's fate.

I don't think for this show it has anything to do with instant gratification. Under Gimple real 'death/peril' is a gimmick. He only kills off important characters in the Finales or Premieres. It's a thing with him which is why I was never worried about Glenn during 'dumpster' phase. As a viewer I know they are safe until the Premieres/Finales so what little peril they might be in at any other point, I know they will survive.

15 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Do you mean when Sophia was coming out of the barn? If so, that was Daryl holding her back, and really - would you bite that filthy hand?

No when they were on the highway when Sophia ran off into the woods. Lori physically restrained her twice.

12 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

This will be a very unpopular opinion in some circles, but another factor for the show's decline [IMO]?  Forcing the 'Richonne' just because some vocal fans/reviewers were clamoring for it.  I wouldn't be against the pairing if there was that kind of chemistry between the actors, but there isn't.  I don't read the comics - only know some general facts, etc, but I've always wondered how it would have played out on the TV show if the main romantic partner for Rick in the comics was still alive (on the show).

I don't think it would have been different if his comics partner were still alive. Lincoln didn't have chemistry of that kind with the actress who played her. I never wanted Richonne either so it's not unpopular with me. I saw Richonne in the same vein as Caryl. There is familial chemistry there. Or friendship chemistry. But romantic or sexual? Nada. And more importantly I knew that Michonne would cease to exist as she was. Which was a more important reason for me as to why I didn't want Richonne. This show in general is terrible when it comes to romantic/sexual chemistry. Has there been any couple or potential couple so far who had that? I can't think of one.

[AngelaHunter]

17 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

  From season one through this season, exactly how much time has past in TWD years?   Has a full year passed yet?  Six months? 

Well, we went through Lori's entire pregnancy and now Judith appears to be about three, so four years have passed? She's the only real barometer we have, but Judith seems to grow freakishly fast, and yet Maggie is still not showing, so who knows?

2 hours ago, Smad said:

No when they were on the highway when Sophia ran off into the woods. Lori physically restrained her twice.

Ah, okay. I'd forgotten that, and was just too eager to post that meme because it tickles my funnybone.

2 hours ago, Smad said:

This show in general is terrible when it comes to romantic/sexual chemistry. Has there been any couple or potential couple so far who had that? I can't think of one.

No, not a single one, in my view. They all had, and have an odd, sterile quality, more like siblings than lovers. I take that back. I did find Andrea/Gov had some kind of heat and saw chemistry there, more in the looks/eye thing than in the actual sex.

[Bongo Fury]

33 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I am beginning to think that this show would have been much better off if Shane had lived and Rick had died.  But then again, I would have to count on the writers/showrunner doing a much better job writing and developing the Shane character, than they have for Rick's.  I am just not that optimistic.

Shane lived and died entirely within the Darabount era of TWD. Which also coincides with the era of the show when Daryl was an interesting character. Since then there just hasn't been a show runner who can craft compelling characters. In fact there aren't characters on this show any more, just vehicles to move the plot along. 

Edited April 15, 2018 by Bongo Fury

[Smad]

33 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I am beginning to think that this show would have been much better off if Shane had lived and Rick had died.  But then again, I would have to count on the writers/showrunner doing a much better job writing and developing the Shane character, than they have for Rick's.  I am just not that optimistic.

In the end it probably doesn't matter who lives and who dies.

Nah, I don't think it would have made that much of a difference. Shane would have gotten people killed just in a different way. IMO where the show went wrong was having Rick be so inept at pretty much everything. The guy just sucks as a leader but the characters (who I assume have functioning brains) not only stick with him, some even had to praise him. The show should have had the characters come right out and say he sucks so that he wold be forced to step up his game. Or replace him with someone who isn't a complete moron with episodes of insanity. *cough* Michonne *cough*

I know there are plenty Rick lovers but I can't for the life of me understand if there were any 'Rick The Leader' lovers.

[DearEvette]

I am just sad we didn't get to see what Darabont could have done with the show.  Say what you will about the stupidity of CDB in season 1, they were never boring.  and that season they had a clear goal: get to the CDC. 

After Darabont left even Glen Mazzara wasn't so bad.  I mean, season 2 was set on a farm with them all hanging out with a new set of characters.  I shudder to think of how Herschel and family's intro and development would have been handled under Gimple.   But what we got with Mazzara -- that is how you introduce new important characters to a show.  Michonne, Sasha & Tyreese were the last characters I think that got good intros and some development as new main characters, but outside of Michonne being so iconic that she almost didn't need any introduction,  I don't think any of them got the deep character beats that Herschel, Maggie and even Beth to a lesser extent, got in season 2.   Also I think the deaths meant something.  Shane's death at the end of his escalating issues with Rick and their power struggle fed into the Rick/Lori problems.  It was powerful, well done, tense, and impactful in a way that Carl's death, imo has not been.

I will agree that Sott Gimple can write.  He has written some really excellent episodes.  I mean, he wrote 'This Sorrowful Life' and gave Merle a great send off.  But it is clear that he is way above his head in showrunning.  He just can't translate what he can do in one episode into a whole season.  So yeah, it is kinda sad to think of what could have been with this show in better hands.  The remaining characters deserved better.

Edited April 15, 2018 by DearEvette

[mightysparrow]

In my opinion, the only good thing about Richonne is that its destroyed Michonne so much that Danai has no reason to stick around working on this crap.  She's got a bright future ahead of her; she doesn't need TWD.

I think one of the biggest mistakes was the people behind the scenes let the popularity of the show go to their heads. I don't know what Darabont or Mazzara look like but Gimple, Kirkman, Nicotero, Hurd started to think they were stars.  There were too many interviews where the writers and producers spoke more than the actors.  I've never seen anything like that.  Gimple and Kirkman spent too much time at fan expos and too little time creating a coherent show. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I am just sad we didn't get to see what Darabont could have done with the show.  Say what you will about the stupidity of CDB in season 1, they were never boring.  and that season they had a clear goal: get to the CDC.

Q. F. T!

This is my own personal opinion of most television shows in the last couple decades.  There's a reason I don't watch much TV - at least while a show is in its "heyday" - and that is because about 90% of all TV shows lose what made them special after the first season or two, and the 'magic' is never recaptured.  I would name off examples, but I don't have all afternoon to do so.  Or even more rare, some shows start off bad and get good (or at least how I feel about a series).

After Darabont was canned, this show started to decline a bit in S2, and then fell off a cliff after Mazarra left.  I know Negan & the Saviors was too big a landmark on TWD's map to skip over, but they really mishandled it.  This 2-year long arc - or 2 weeks in show's universe time - has felt like its been going for a GD'd eternity because all I want is for it to be over.

[AngelaHunter]

5 hours ago, Smad said:

The guy just sucks as a leader but the characters (who I assume have functioning brains) not only stick with him, some even had to praise him. The show should have had the characters come right out and say he sucks so that he wold be forced to step up his game. Or replace him with someone who isn't a complete moron with episodes of insanity. *cough* Michonne *cough*

He's never been a great leader, but in every group there are leaders and followers. Nothing wrong with being a follower. They are necessary and without them there would be no armies and no leaders. Daryl is a follower, and yes, even the indomitable and perfect Michonne is a follower, as is Maggie which is why she waffles around and sucks at authority. They are all good at what they do, but can't lead. This wasn't a dictatorship (or even a "Rictatorship") but a bunch of people who agreed and chose to follow someone who was willing to take the lead. Everyone looked to him for answers. Yes, for sure Rick made mistakes, but I had no problem with that since before the ZA he was a cop who is only human, not a politician or a general. I just have a problem now in that Gimple has turned Rick from flawed leader into a complete bumbling idiot who acts and sounds positively moronic.

But I'm sure Gimple tells himself, "Oh, them(audience)? They just don't understand my vision. Those cretins don't get my art!" That is the worst part of it all. I believe he feels he is above the material.

[CletusMusashi]

Honestly, I believe the show has been mediocre at best ever since Season 3 ended. S3 itself was a step down from 1 and 2, but it was still good TV. But in early Season 4, I remember everyone on the forums saying "Why isn't this bad guy dead yet? Is he supposed to be the new star? They do know we aren't falling for his hackneyed faux-redemptiom story arc, don't they?" Sadly, the show hasn't changed that much since then.

[Smad]

2 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

He's never been a great leader, but in every group there are leaders and followers. Nothing wrong with being a follower. They are necessary and without them there would be no armies and no leaders. Daryl is a follower, and yes, even the indomitable and perfect Michonne is a follower, as is Maggie which is why she waffles around and sucks at authority. They are all good at what they do, but can't lead. This wasn't a dictatorship (or even a "Rictatorship") but a bunch of people who agreed and chose to follow someone who was willing to take the lead. Everyone looked to him for answers. Yes, for sure Rick made mistakes, but I had no problem with that since before the ZA he was a cop who is only human, not a politician or a general. I just have a problem now in that Gimple has turned Rick from flawed leader into a complete bumbling idiot who acts and sounds positively moronic.

But I'm sure Gimple tells himself, "Oh, them(audience)? They just don't understand my vision. Those cretins don't get my art!" That is the worst part of it all. I believe he feels he is above the material.

It depends on how you look at the story. Rick has to be the leader because that's what he is in the comics. So it really doesn't matter what he says/does...he is the leader period. Daryl works as a follower because that's in his character. But Michonne? Michonne easily has what it takes, and she has more qualities that would qualify her than Rick. Hell she even took authority from and challenged Rick (especially at the end of S5 when it comes to Alexandria). But because the story is 'Rick is always leader' there is no way for Michonne to ever become that. And it's only because the comics dictate it and not any 'in show' reasons.

I was fine at the beginning of the show with people looking to the Shanes and Ricks of this world because that's natural. But after a while it just wasn't believable to me anymore. Rick wafflled constantly, he doesn't delegate, he has insane episodes, he sucks at reading situations/people, he has no idea about (long term) planning or strategy, his stupidity constantly gets people killed and he puts his children above others. Yes, I see parenthood as a negative when being a leader in an apocalyptic situation. When he kicked Carol out he said that he did it because he didn't want her around his children. It's fine to do/say that when you are a parent but not when you are a leader. The whole of the group comes first, not your children. I also know that if it had been anyone else from the core group, he wouldn't have kicked them out. Same at the end of S2 when he said that no one goes back to the farm to look for Andrea. We all know that if it had been his wife or his son, people would have had to go back there to look for them. You don't get to pick favorites. And you don't get the luxury to set rules for you and your family but set other rules for everyone else.

[CletusMusashi]

But... his parade had balloons!

[Persnickety1]

On 4/14/2018 at 1:08 PM, AngelaHunter said:

Do you mean when Sophia was coming out of the barn? If so, that was Daryl holding her back, and really - would you bite that filthy hand?

 

No, when the herd was passing through on the highway and they were hiding under the vehicles.  Lori kept her hand clamped over Carol's mouth over most of that scene to keep her quiet.  I get why it was important to not make a lot of noise and draw the herd back, but still...if that were my kid, herd be damned, I'd have bitten her bony hand hard enough to make a walker bite seem like a butterfly kiss.

I juts realized the bottom of Daryl's shoe is probably the cleanest part of him in that meme LOL  :D :D :D

[AngelaHunter]

13 hours ago, Smad said:

I was fine at the beginning of the show with people looking to the Shanes and Ricks of this world because that's natural. But after a while it just wasn't believable to me anymore. Rick wafflled constantly, he doesn't delegate, he has insane episodes, he sucks at reading situations/people, he has no idea about (long term) planning or strategy, his stupidity constantly gets people killed and he puts his children above others.

I totally agree with all that, but even so, people made him the leader and still chose, and choose, to follow and obey him. This is believeable to me because followers need a leader, even a bad leader. History is filled with examples of people following the worst - even insane -  leaders into disaster and death. I still don't see Michonne as a leader. She's a good second-in-command - someone nearly as important as the leader, to advise and back him up - more of an enforcer who gives strength to the leader. All the other CDBers were pure followers. No one wanted to go to the outpost at the beginning of the Negan arc to murder all the sleeping Saviors, but they all did it even if they were opposed and it was a really bad idea.

The only person who opposed Rick was Shane and now I wonder if even Lori had not been involved the outcome might have eventually been the same. Can't keep two alpha dogs in one kennel!

Statistically speaking, Rick is the most prolific killer on this show - not Negan, not the Gov, but Rick. No, he's not a sadist who tortures people for kicks, but he's utterly ruthless (except when it comes to Negan - ho!) and I think he likes killing, as evidenced by him murdering the Savior who had just saved his life twice in a row. All that makes his inability to kill Negan all the more ludicrous and laughable.

[Smad]

5 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I totally agree with all that, but even so, people made him the leader and still chose, and choose, to follow and obey him. This is believeable to me because followers need a leader, even a bad leader. History is filled with examples of people following the worst - even insane -  leaders into disaster and death. I still don't see Michonne as a leader. She's a good second-in-command - someone nearly as important as the leader, to advise and back him up - more of an enforcer who gives strength to the leader. All the other CDBers were pure followers. No one wanted to go to the outpost at the beginning of the Negan arc to murder all the sleeping Saviors, but they all did it even if they were opposed and it was a really bad idea.

Who said there can only be one leader? As I've said before, the best idea they ever had was a council. That it didn't work that one time was a given because it justified that there should only be the 'one true leader - Rick'. If you really want to rebuild you need a council, departments who focus on one specific thing. Ezekiel had that worked out. Sure he is a leader but unlike Rick he's actually a good one that did fine until Rick and crew came into his life. There doesn't need to be a leader in peacetime really, a council or co-leads would be more than fine. There only needs to be a military leader for war time. With Rick as leader, I see the strings and that's a problem for me. There are people who would make better leaders but they are either taken on weird character journeys so that people think 'well I would have wanted this person to take over but not anymore' or they are forced into a follower role despite the fact that they could be more. Just so Rick can stay leader. I balk when I see strings.

[peach]

I've always seen Michonne as simply independent in her nature, neither leader nor follower.  She certainly has what it takes to step up and "help" the leader when he goes batshit insane and needs to be knocked unconscious for his own good.  And she stepped up and convinced him to go to Alexandria for the sake of the children.  Not that she decided to lead the group there, per se, but got Rick to do it for the sake of the children.  After the last three seasons, maybe that wasn't even a good idea.  It really wasn't until that point that she was more integrated into the group on a more daily basis.  She used to stay out on the trail like/with Daryl. 

Anyway, I think Michonne has no desire to lead, but she will step in when the leader needs correction.  So she's not a "follower" really either.  She will assert herself when necessary, and then step back.  Apparently, at the end of 8, she's just as irrational as Rick, though.