S13.E17: The Thing

[OnceSane]

Stay on topic, please.  How fans feel or detailed discussions of past seasons/episodes is off-topic for this thread.

[Lemuria]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

He wasn't just involved, he was integral to the mission.

I honestly don't see how Cas was integral to the mission.  Did he have an interest in it?  Yes, because of Jack and because of concern for Dean.  "Integral," however, would imply that he was needed for the mission on the other side of the rift but we haven't seen anything to indicate that any part of the mission turned on Cas' being there. 

I have already noted, in an earlier post, that I actually think it's the opposite:  Cas' presence could be a liability, as it might alert AU!Michael (and the other angels) that he had entered the other reality.  Just the way Cas believed he could have brought harm to Dean in Purgatory by staying with him, because his angelic nature pinged the radar of the Leviathans.

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

On ‎4‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 9:26 PM, Katy M said:

I'm not sure if he thought he found something and then he decided it was nothing, or if he was just messing with Sam

He was messing with Sam as brothers do LOL

[SueB]

It occurred to me that Ketch clearly has the universal door key to the Men of Letter bunker ... which we know opens up these little outposts too.

Obviously it would be boring, but if Ketch truly wanted to hide, going to an outpost there would be the right idea. 

I think instead, he's truly after a redemption, as Asmodeus taunted.  And possibly to be relevant again.  Really, what is the purpose of Ketch's life at this point? His whole identity was a BMoL assassin/operative.  He apparently 'deserted' his post (per him).  He could have gone back after his resurrection and said he was injured while fighting the Winchesters.  The BMoL may have killed him anyway, but I think he's done with them.  He's seen Team Winchester and envy's them. It's kinda pathetic how much he wants their approval (and will never get it).  So get the Winchesters something they need (Gabriel) and see if he can useful to them.  I just don't know if I can take the groveling.  

[Female83]

I wonder how Gabriel ended up with Asmodeus and how long he's been captive. 

[SueB]

20 minutes ago, Female83 said:

I wonder how Gabriel ended up with Asmodeus and how long he's been captive. 

I think we'll find out soon.

[mertensia]

Yeah, Ketch is after some sort-any sort- of redemption, and it's a different issue than should he get it. 

I enjoyed this and that flapper dress was gorgeous.

I completely get why Dean was all "and I'm off. With Senor Psychopath." He's got the tools to get to his mom.  And he sees no reason to wait. He's on the Jazz, like Hannibal in the A-Team.

[catrox14]

10 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I honestly don't see how Cas was integral to the mission.  Did he have an interest in it?  Yes, because of Jack and because of concern for Dean.  "Integral," however, would imply that he was needed for the mission on the other side of the rift but we haven't seen anything to indicate that any part of the mission turned on Cas' being there. 

I have already noted, in an earlier post, that I actually think it's the opposite:  Cas' presence could be a liability, as it might alert AU!Michael (and the other angels) that he had entered the other reality.  Just the way Cas believed he could have brought harm to Dean in Purgatory by staying with him, because his angelic nature pinged the radar of the Leviathans.

I don't know why it would be presumed he wasn't going to participate in going over with Dean and Sam to save Mary and Jack.   Cas' motivation was the same as Dean and Sam's and that's to save the rest of their family and yes Cas and Jack are family to the boys and to each other.

That Dean made a  last minute unilateral decision to go alone, once Ketch showed up unexpectedly wtih Gabriel, doesn't change that Cas was necessary to complete the overall mission of which the first step was getting all the parts necessary to open the rift.

[mertensia]

There are two connected but different missions: 1) get the items to open the Rift. 2) Operation retrieve Mary and Jack. Cas was necessary for #1. He is - at this point- not for #2. Which is what Lemuria was referring to.

[DittyDotDot]

TBH, I think Ketch played right into Asmoedeus's plan. Asmodeus wants Jack back so he worked Ketch up and got him pissed off enough that Ketch took his archangel and gave it to the Winchesters so they would have the ingredients they needed to open the rift and bring back Jack. 

3 hours ago, mertensia said:

I completely get why Dean was all "and I'm off. With Senor Psychopath." He's got the tools to get to his mom.  And he sees no reason to wait.

I get why Dean was rushing, it's just that's usually when they get themselves into trouble--when they rush to do something without getting their ducks in a row first. But, it wouldn't be Supernatural if at least one Winchester wasn't rushing in and getting themselves in a pickle as a result, now would it?

[SueB]

To quote Crowley (boy do I miss his snark)... "Dra.....ma". 

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I think Ketch played right into Asmoedeus's plan. Asmodeus wants Jack back so he worked Ketch up and got him pissed off enough that Ketch took his archangel and gave it to the Winchesters so they would have the ingredients they needed to open the rift and bring back Jack. 

I get why Dean was rushing, it's just that's usually when they get themselves into trouble--when they rush to do something without getting their ducks in a row first. But, it wouldn't be Supernatural if at least one Winchester wasn't rushing in and getting themselves in a pickle as a result, now would it?

Edited April 9, 2018 by SueB

[mertensia]

20 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

I get why Dean was rushing, it's just that's usually when they get themselves into trouble--when they rush to do something without getting their ducks in a row first. But, it wouldn't be Supernatural if at least one Winchester wasn't rushing in and getting themselves in a pickle as a result, now would it?

How much planning can they do, though? They can't reconnoiter. They can't ask locals.

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, mertensia said:

How much planning can they do, though? They can't reconnoiter. They can't ask locals.

I'm just saying that every time they act out of desperation instead of taking a minute to prepare, they usually end up in bigger trouble than they already were in. Of course, Dean has no way of knowing exactly what he's walking into on the other side of the rift, but it never hurts to take a minute and double check you got the matches to go with the holy oil. And, instead of making rash deals with idiot psychopaths, maybe take a minute to realize he doesn't have anything to bargain with so you don't need to agree to his every term simply because you're in a hurry and don't want to deal with him at all. ::shrugs::

Edited April 9, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[Pondlass1]

I thought it was consistent writing for Dean. He's Action Man when ducks are lined up and things need to happen but able to become Chill Guy when they're not.  I don't know why he'd need to wait and check off options.  I wouldn't have. And his foresight in leaving Sam behind 'just in case' was smart.

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

And his foresight in leaving Sam behind 'just in case' was smart.

But, that's kinda my point, that was a well thought out decision that wasn't made out of desperation--I'm of the opinion Dean has been forging that part of the plan since they started looking for the ingredients--opening the rift right then and agreeing to anything Ketch said was not. So, I totally agree Dean's had a well-reasoned plan why Sam should stay behind, but everything else was just winging it. But, it wouldn't be Supernatural if they weren't winging it and getting themselves into trouble as a result either. I'm quite certain Ketch will end up being the spanner in the works on this one ::shrugs:: 

Edited April 9, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[Pondlass1]

I'm really not sure why they brought Ketch back TBH?  I liked the character because ... well, who isn't entertained by a psychopath?  They really liven things up.  But this season was already overcrowded with big bads, we didn't need another and resurrecting  dead folk has become a joke.

 Dean's definitely the boss in this mission and Ketch will come in handy I guess. He's more handy than a liability.  If he doesn't behave Dean will kill him.

But I can only guess the actor has good management or came cheap or something?

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

There are two connected but different missions: 1) get the items to open the Rift. 2) Operation retrieve Mary and Jack. Cas was necessary for #1. He is - at this point- not for #2. Which is what Lemuria was referring to.

I fully understood what Lemuria meant and I fully disagree with it, hence my prior comment.

Cas would not be a liability anymore than Sam. Cas has angel radio. Cas has healing powers. Cas is an A+ fighter.

The entire mission is Save Mary and Jack.

There are steps to the mission

Step 1. Figure out how to open a rift

Step 2. Donny finds the spell and goes darkside in the process. Cas rips the spell from Donny's mind, at great risk to himself, to make sure they had the spell.

Step 3. Gather all the ingredients for the spell, which requires the trip to Syria that the boys likely couldn't have ever done.

Step 4. Open the rift with the ingredients

Step 5. All of them go through the rift to save Mary and Jack.

I'm disinclined to infer that Cas' absence, and lack of mention, in this episode is meant to be understood as the show saying Cas was no longer necessary to the mission.

[catrox14]

ETA: Whilst it was a smart play, it was also a last minute tactical decision by Dean unless one thinks Dean had an alternate plan to go alone all along and this just upped his timetable. That's unknown right now.
 

[Pondlass1]

Misha is not slotted in for every episode.  Maybe this is decided at the beginning of the season and the writers have to write the character accordingly.

It will never make sense that he disappears for weeks on end without mention, but I'm not a big Castiel fan so it doesn't bother me much.  Never worry, tho, our Castiel will return in time to save the day.  I'm sure of it.

Meanwhile my fingers are crossed and I'm a lather of anticipation for Jensen's upcoming acting challenge. They've wasted his talents far too much over the years.  Please please let the writing make sense...

[Wayward Son]

26 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Never worry, tho, our Castiel will return in time to save the day.  I'm sure of it.

 

I’m a Cas fan but I doubt that’ll be the case. Ever since Dabb has taken over its more likely to be the other way around I.e. Cas does something stupid and the brothers save the day because apparently Dabb can’t write everyone good and competent. 

[Katy M]

39 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

It will never make sense that he disappears for weeks on end without mention, but I'm not a big Castiel fan so it doesn't bother me much.  Never worry, tho, our Castiel will return in time to save the day.  I'm sure of it.

I have a feeling Ketch is going to save the day.  I'd prefer Cas to that.

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

t will never make sense that he disappears for weeks on end without mention, but I'm not a big Castiel fan so it doesn't bother me much.  N

See to me it has nothing to do with whether or not one is a fan or x character or not. To me it is  a matter of  lazy writing unless there is a big reveal coming, to leave the absence of  a major character unaddressed.

[gonzosgirrl]

36 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I have a feeling Ketch is going to save the day.  I'd prefer Cas to that.

Me too, and I'm going to be endlessly pissed if Ketch somehow saves Dean's ass and Dean is obliged to thank him, when what he should be doing is putting him back in the ground (and chop off the damn leg with the resurrection spell in it, first). OTOH if Ketch dies in some fiery blaze of glory in the AU while saving a village, or, you know, a puppy, I'll be okay with that. Just so long as he's dead.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Me too, and I'm going to be endlessly pissed if Ketch somehow saves Dean's ass and Dean is obliged to thank him, when what he should be doing is putting him back in the ground (and chop off the damn leg with the resurrection spell in it, first). OTOH if Ketch dies in some fiery blaze of glory in the AU while saving a village, or, you know, a puppy, I'll be okay with that. Just so long as he's dead.

Maybe Mary and Ketch will decide to set up house in the AU more permanently albeit for different reasons-Mary to take care of all of the lost children over there and Ketch to earn his redemption with her-and then their "romance" will blossom again and voila-another Supernatural spin-off.

Heh. Just kidding-kind of. ;-)

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Cas would not be a liability anymore than Sam.

Except Sam got left behind also, so apparently Sam's not that much of an asset that Dean took him along either. Dean seemed to even imply that Ketch was a better choice because Dean didn't have to worry about him getting killed - perhaps implying Dean maybe thought Sam wouldn't be able to take care of himself, and so Dean would have to worry about him. I can see Dean placing Castiel in that same category - "I'd have to worry that he might get hurt and/or mess up somehow and/or something goes wrong and I won't be able to do what needs to be done, because I'll be worrying about him." This is perhaps one of John's traits that Dean has inherited. He feels freer to be more reckless and take chances when he doesn't have to worry about someone he loves coming with.

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

I have a feeling Ketch is going to save the day. 

4 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

...its more likely to be the other way around I.e. Cas does something stupid and the brothers save the day

I predicted a combination of these things over in the "Spoilers" thread, except instead of just Castiel doing something stupid, I considered that both Sam and Castiel will do something stupid and get in trouble.

On another note: I finally watched this episode. I was a little bit annoyed by a few things. The first being Samsel in distress getting kidnapped, and then not contributing much of anything to saving Dean. Also if you're going to up a character's stuffiness, it's less of a "joke" if you have random other characters explain the joke point it out to us. If this were season 7 - where this kind of humor was done much better in my opinion - there might've been some kind of detail later where Dean left a tip and then got up, Sam looked over his shoulder in the general direction of the rude waitress and took some of the tip back and stuffed it in his pocket with a "you don't deserve 18%" muttered under his breath or conveyed via a look. Now that would've been funnier, in my opinion. (And this is why I miss season 7).

And I'm likely the only one who this annoys, but what's with other characters doing Sam's photograph thing now? This is starting to really annoy me. Sam pretty much had one weird, unique thing that he pretty much did going way back to season 1 - he's good at making photograph connections - and now all of a sudden this season Jack does it and Dean does it this episode. That could've at least been something Sam contributed this episode anyway.

Otherwise a rather inoffensive mostly one-off episode.

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam looked over his shoulder in the general direction of the rude waitress and took some of the tip back and stuffed it in his pocket with a "you don't deserve 18%" muttered under his breath or conveyed via a look. Now that would've been funnier, in my opinion. (And this is why I miss season 7).

Now that would have been funny! Although I would amend that from “some” to “all” of the tip. She didn’t deserve a cent from them IMO. Rudeness should never be awarded. 

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Rudeness should never be awarded. 

Heh, true!

Maybe even better Sam could've muttered something about the lemon as he took the tip.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Except Sam got left behind also, so apparently Sam's not that much of an asset that Dean took him along either.

I don't really understand this.

Lemuria was saying that Cas would be a liability. I'm saying that neither Cas nor Sam would be liabilities for Dean. Dean didn't imply that either would be a liability. 

So, I'm not quite following your meaning with all this.

 

6 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Except Sam got left behind also, so apparently Sam's not that much of an asset that Dean took him along either. Dean seemed to even imply that Ketch was a better choice because Dean didn't have to worry about him getting killed - perhaps implying Dean maybe thought Sam wouldn't be able to take care of himself, and so Dean would have to worry about him. I can see Dean placing Castiel in that same category - "I'd have to worry that he might get hurt and/or mess up somehow and/or something goes wrong and I won't be able to do what needs to be done, because I'll be worrying about him." This is perhaps one of John's traits that Dean has inherited. He feels freer to be more reckless and take chances when he doesn't have to worry about someone he loves coming with.

[gonzosgirrl]

29 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Except Sam got left behind also, so apparently Sam's not that much of an asset that Dean took him along either. Dean seemed to even imply that Ketch was a better choice because Dean didn't have to worry about him getting killed - perhaps implying Dean maybe thought Sam wouldn't be able to take care of himself, and so Dean would have to worry about him. I can see Dean placing Castiel in that same category - "I'd have to worry that he might get hurt and/or mess up somehow and/or something goes wrong and I won't be able to do what needs to be done, because I'll be worrying about him." This is perhaps one of John's traits that Dean has inherited. He feels freer to be more reckless and take chances when he doesn't have to worry about someone he loves coming with.

But Dean specifically said he didn't care if Ketch got killed, so come along or don't. Nobody would expect Dean to feel that way about Sam's well being in any situation, but there was nothing about him being a 'better choice' than Sam. Dean is also trusting Sam with his life, should he not be able to make it back to the rift in time, or if something goes wrong. He excepts Sam to save his ass. The plan to have one of them stay behind is sound, and Dean is always going to choose to put himself in peril over Sam, but the comparison to John is unjust, IMO. He talked to him first. And at the end of the day, Sam is a big boy. If he really wanted or wants to go after Dean, the rift is right there. I think he knows it's smarter for him to stay behind.

[SueB]

Huh.  I must be the only one not annoyed at the waitress.  I'd have given her 20%.  She was a little judgey but in a playful way and waitresses don't make squat.  Gotta help the little guy.

27 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

On another note: I finally watched this episode. I was a little bit annoyed by a few things. The first being Samsel in distress getting kidnapped, and then not contributing much of anything to saving Dean. Also if you're going to up a character's stuffiness, it's less of a "joke" if you have random other characters explain the joke point it out to us. If this were season 7 - where this kind of humor was done much better in my opinion - there might've been some kind of detail later where Dean left a tip and then got up, Sam looked over his shoulder in the general direction of the rude waitress and took some of the tip back and stuffed it in his pocket with a "you don't deserve 18%" muttered under his breath or conveyed via a look. Now that would've been funnier, in my opinion. (And this is why I miss season 7).

And I'm likely the only one who this annoys, but what's with other characters doing Sam's photograph thing now? This is starting to really annoy me. Sam pretty much had one weird, unique thing that he pretty much did going way back to season 1 - he's good at making photograph connections - and now all of a sudden this season Jack does it and Dean does it this episode. That could've at least been something Sam contributed this episode anyway.

Otherwise a rather inoffensive mostly one-off episode.

I didn't think Sam was stuffy so much as annoyed at Dean acting 12.... which is kinda standard brother schtick.  But Sam's annoyance was reasonable.  And good on him getting the lobster roll without the roll.  Those things are like 1000 calories.  How he powers that big frame I'll never know.  Was he over-annoyed at the waitress?  I don't think so.  Clearly mileage varies here on her behavior.  Makes sense the brothers had different opinions too.

I was impressed Sam recovered relatively quickly from the drugging.  I almost think him getting drugged and in trouble was a feint to remind us of the extent each brother will go to for each other.  There was a bit of "traditionalness" to this episode.  Sort of grounding us before things went pearshaped.

I will admit I didn't know photographs were a Sam thing.  Generally figuring out what's going on is a Sam thing but I hadn't known about the phot thing.  This will require a COMPLETE series rewatch so as to fully appreciate this (because I am certain you are right).  But I agree it was odd that Dean made the connection when usually Sam pulls together the bits of data.  Not sure why they did that.  Not sure it bothers me that much.  I like it when both the smarts and BadAssery are shown by both brothers.  While I think they are better together they are each formidable on their own. I like when the show reminds us of that.  Sam didn't get enough BadAssery this time to balance out Dean getting a research moment.  But maybe he has another sequence coming soon.  I know this one episode doesn't shift my perspective on how deadly he can be nor how smart.  Same way with Dean. His 12 year old behavior did not make me think he can never be serious when the situation warrants.  

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

Huh.  I must be the only one not annoyed at the waitress.  I'd have given her 20%.  She was a little judgey but in a playful way and waitresses don't make squat.  Gotta help the little guy.

I'm with you because she didn't bother me either. And as a former waitress I concur that they do work hard for very little pay.

[AwesomO4000]

51 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But Dean specifically said he didn't care if Ketch got killed, so come along or don't. Nobody would expect Dean to feel that way about Sam's well being in any situation, but there was nothing about him being a 'better choice' than Sam.

... but the comparison to John is unjust, IMO.

Which was basically what I was saying. I didn't say that Dean said Ketch was a "better choice." I said the implication was there in his saying he didn't have to care if Ketch died or not whereas he would  care about Sam or Castiel, and therefore worry. For me that means that the big factor is worrying about the other person... and if that's the case, Dean would've worried about Castiel just as much as he would worry about Sam, and therefore likely wouldn't have wanted to bring Castiel either. He would've wanted Castiel to stay behind and find out what was up with Gabriel... which like with Sam and being there "if something goes wrong" would also be a solid plan, but has the added benefit for Dean of the people he cares about being relatively safe... because I suspect that Dean intends to not have things go wrong, and therefore be back before Sam has to save him. For Dean, that is going to be the best scenario.

I was a perhaps a little harsh with my John comparison, but I still think it holds up some. John tried the "it's safer" explanation with Dean also in season 1 until Dean called him out with - "you mean that you can be more reckless if we're not with you." I think Dean saying he doesn't have to worry if Ketch gets killed is implying a bit of a similar thing... that he can be freer to take a few risks since he doesn't care if Ketch gets killed in the crossfire or not.

That may not be your interpretation, but it seems to be a reasonable interpretation to me.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm saying that neither Cas nor Sam would be liabilities for Dean. Dean didn't imply that either would be a liability. 

Yeah, I admit that I was a little harsh in my wording... I think I am anticipating that the writing is setting up Ketch to do the saving, so that Sam and Castiel will instead end up being liabilities instead of help... so a little of that I was transferring over to Dean... but in a way, that's actually going to make it almost worse if the situation does end up that Sam falls down on the job - which is what I suspect they are setting up with this Ketch wants redemption thing. I hope not, but I can entirely see it happening. At least if Dean expected it, it wouldn't come as such a disappointment for him when it happens.

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I will admit I didn't know photographs were a Sam thing.  Generally figuring out what's going on is a Sam thing but I hadn't known about the phot thing.  This will require a COMPLETE series rewatch so as to fully appreciate this (because I am certain you are right). 

I'll give you some good examples to start with later this evening over in the "All Episodes" thread. "Hollywood Babylon" is a good place to start though: putting together something he saw in a photograph with evidence in the case is how Sam starts to unravel part of the mystery there. (Dean unravels the other half through his awesome knowledge of eclectic movie trivia.)

[MysteryGuest]

I think Dean wanted to go alone (or at least without Sam) because if something happened to him, Sam would be able to still try to save Mary and Jack.  This way they would be able to make a few attempts, if he wasn't successful the first time.  I don't in any way think it was meant as a slight against Sam.  When Sam said "you'd rather take him", meaning Ketch, I thought that was a bit odd.  Sam is obviously still struggling at this point and is feeling vulnerable like he has in the past.  There's really been nothing said or done by Dean to indicate that he doesn't trust Sam, or that he doesn't think he's up to the task of doing their job.  I'm not sure where Sam's self-doubt is coming from, but it's probably just part of his overall funk.

As someone pointed out above, if Michael was able to track Jack (at least Bobby and Mary told him that he could), then it stands to reason he could track Castiel, too.  That would have been a simple way for them to explain why Cas wasn't going to be part of the actual rescue.  It would have been better than just ignoring him, and there is precedent that angels don't fare too well among the humans in the AU.  

Edited April 9, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[takalotti]

11 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

As someone pointed out above, if Michael was able to track Jack (at least Bobby and Mary told him that he could), then it stands to reason he could track Castiel, too.  That would have been a simple way for them to explain why Cas wasn't going to be part of the actual rescue.  It would have been better than just ignoring him, and there is precedent that angels don't fare too well among the humans in the AU.  

Except that no one over here knows that Michael can track Jack for that to be part of their reasoning to leave Cas out of the trip. All they know is that Cas popped over first, had a long enough chat with Bobby to swap info about the two worlds, popped over again with Sam and Dean this time, had another decent chat, popped over a third time with Lucifer also there, and no AW angels showed up during any of those visits. So why would they assume Michael would be able to ping on angels, making that a reason not to bring Cas along?

I'm fine with the theories that Dean has been 'planning' to go over alone all along. In that case it makes sense that he wouldn’t even want to call Cas to give an update since that would likely result in an argument. Doesn’t explain why Sam wouldn’t try to bring up Cas as a way to stall Dean ("He’s as desperate to save Jack as you are to save Mom. Don’t you think he should get to decide if he’s a a part of this?").

[MysteryGuest]

27 minutes ago, takalotti said:

Except that no one over here knows that Michael can track Jack for that to be part of their reasoning to leave Cas out of the trip.

That's true, but even AU Bobby pinged on Cas being an angel from the get go.  He opted not to kill him because he looked "different".  I guess we'll have to wait to see if there are repercussions from Dean's going alone, or with Ketch.  

9 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

It will never make sense that he disappears for weeks on end without mention

I agree with this.  This particular incident isn't the first time we've been left scratching our heads as to where Cas is, or why they didn't try contacting him.  It actually happens on a regular basis.  Once in a great while they'll make a point of saying that so and so wasn't available, but normally, they just go about doing their thing by themselves.  While I like Cas just fine, I don't find it to be a glaring omission like some do.  But to each his own.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Huh.  I must be the only one not annoyed at the waitress.  I'd have given her 20%.  She was a little judgey but in a playful way and waitresses don't make squat.  Gotta help the little guy.

I generally give 20% as well... I was mostly joking and making reference - with the not deserving 18% - to Sam's similar comments in "How to Win Friends..." concerning the rude waiter who kept insulting them.  (That was a funny scene.) Maybe I am being too harsh on the waitress. Maybe "bean pole" isn't as uncomplimentary now as it was when I was in high school. Still: poor Sam. Somewhat of a let down from Velma's compliments about his shoulders to "bean pole." (Being a former "bean pole" myself - and I'm short, so it wasn't referring to my height - I could sympathize.)

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, takalotti said:

Except that no one over here knows that Michael can track Jack for that to be part of their reasoning to leave Cas out of the trip. All they know is that Cas popped over first, had a long enough chat with Bobby to swap info about the two worlds, popped over again with Sam and Dean this time, had another decent chat, popped over a third time with Lucifer also there, and no AW angels showed up during any of those visits. So why would they assume Michael would be able to ping on angels, making that a reason not to bring Cas along?

I'm fine with the theories that Dean has been 'planning' to go over alone all along. In that case it makes sense that he wouldn’t even want to call Cas to give an update since that would likely result in an argument. Doesn’t explain why Sam wouldn’t try to bring up Cas as a way to stall Dean ("He’s as desperate to save Jack as you are to save Mom. Don’t you think he should get to decide if he’s a a part of this?").

The thing is, just like Sam, Cas can go right ahead and decide if he's going to be a part of it. All he has to do is step through the rift. I'm guessing once he's over not being told before hand, he'll see the wisdom of Dean's plan. IMO, both of them should be camping out on this side to catch anything that might try to get through before Dean comes back. They already experienced whatever those things were that slipped through Kaia's rift.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

But I agree it was odd that Dean made the connection when usually Sam pulls together the bits of data.  Not sure why they did that.  Not sure it bothers me that much.  I like it when both the smarts and BadAssery are shown by both brothers.  While I think they are better together they are each formidable on their own. I like when the show reminds us of that. 

I think Dean also found the research information finding the Men of Letters outpost, too and most of the information tracking down the Key of Solomon if I'm remembering that correctly, but that didn't really bug me so much as the photo thing.

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Sam didn't get enough BadAssery this time to balance out Dean getting a research moment.  But maybe he has another sequence coming soon.  I know this one episode doesn't shift my perspective on how deadly he can be nor how smart.  Same way with Dean. His 12 year old behavior did not make me think he can never be serious when the situation warrants.

I wish I could be as optimistic as you here - and ironically as optimistic as Sam used to be - but things have been written kind of weird and off for Sam for me for a little while now, and I'm not seeing things getting much better.

With Dean, I often overlook the 12 year old and fake dumb stuff, because I know it's pretty much a front or diversion for Dean. For the first, I think Dean thinks Sam expects him to do that kind of stuff and does it partially to make Sam feel like things are "normal" (I wrote a short fanfic on a similar thing - where Dean pretended to not know about something so that a somewhat down Sam could give him all the nerdy details to take Sam's mind off of things for a while).  And for the second, letting the enemy underestimate him is a classic Dean tactic. I often compare Dean to Columbo or Det. Robert Goren (from Law and Order: Criminal Intent) in that regard.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

I was a perhaps a little harsh with my John comparison, but I still think it holds up some. John tried the "it's safer" explanation with Dean also in season 1 until Dean called him out with - "you mean that you can be more reckless if we're not with you." I think Dean saying he doesn't have to worry if Ketch gets killed is implying a bit of a similar thing... that he can be freer to take a few risks since he doesn't care if Ketch gets killed in the crossfire or not.

That is PRECISELY what I think Perez was giving a call back to. 

[MysteryGuest]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And I'm likely the only one who this annoys, but what's with other characters doing Sam's photograph thing now?

I think the only reason Dean even looked at the pictures is because they were all pictures of women.  And the very conspicuous single photograph all by itself that he actually picked up and checked out just happened to be the very same woman they find just seconds later.  I don't think it really had anything do with usurping Sam's normal photograph thing, but was more just Dean's normal checking out women thing.

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, SueB said:

That is PRECISELY what I think Perez was giving a call back to. 

I would bet a whole lot that Perez has no idea that line ever existed. It seems to me these writers only read the Cliff's Notes of the show, gleaning enough to rip off iconic lines like saving people, hunting things, or Dad's on a hunting trip and hasn't been home in a few days. The OTT character beats they give the brothers (Dumb Dean, Uptight Sam) only reinforce my opinion.

I do find it ironic that the one time in recent memory they actually show Dean being more than just the muscle, it's too much and taking something away from Sam.

[catrox14]

I can't really agree that Dean doesn't notice things like that. He's notices symbols and their relationships. Why wouldn't he notice the same person in a picture that's there in front of them? I don't really get that TBH, especially for a guy who remembers details about Scooby Doo and other TV and movie scenes. Seems right up his alley to see a picture and remember her.

[AwesomO4000]

52 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I can't really agree that Dean doesn't notice things like that. He's notices symbols and their relationships.

Oh, I agree that symbols are definitely a Dean thing*. And looking back there have been some photo recognition things at times also - like in "The Mentalists." But in general Dean seems to notice the symbols most - like in "Playthings" when Dean looks at the photographs while talking to the old caretaker, he notices the five spot necklace on the nanny. Or in "Hell House" when he recognized the symbol from Blue Oyster Cult. And "Shadow."

* I think Sam got one once or twice, like in season 8 when he recognized some symbol he learned in some humanities class, but usually Dean visualizes and recognizes the symbols.

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think it really had anything do with usurping Sam's normal photograph thing, but was more just Dean's normal checking out women thing.

I actually mostly agree with you now - though less that it was just Dean looking at women, because I think his mind was looking for clues there. I don't think there's usurping going on now either, because looking back on Sam and his photograph thing, most of the examples are from the early years. I honestly don't think these current writers know or remember it was even a thing... which is why they had Jack do the necessary photo connecting a few episodes ago. It's mainly a plot device now... though as I said, I do think with Dean in this case there is an element of looking for clues there.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I do find it ironic that the one time in recent memory they actually show Dean being more than just the muscle, it's too much and taking something away from Sam.

For me, it was more that Sam didn't do much of anything in the episode***. Dean found most of the clues and did all of the badass stuff, too. He even got to be the fun in the episode (while Sam has become Mr. Gloom and Doom all of a sudden), and do pretty much all of the planning and leading. But as long as Sam being a gloomy lump doesn't become a continuous thing, I won't mind so much.

People complained about something similar happening last season with Sam also, saying there wasn't much left for Dean to do and that Sam was taking away stuff from Dean... But as I said above, after thinking about it some more, I'm even softening on my position some, so there is that.

Besides Dean was pretty smart in "Breakdown," "Various and Sundry Villains," and the Scooby Doo episode also if you ask me. (But you didn't ; ), so shutting up now.)

*** well, I guess he did wake up fairly quickly from being drugged and kidnapped, so maybe that's something?

[takalotti]

FWIW, I just assumed the reason Sam woke up so quickly was because he didn’t eat that much of the potion before they realized something was up.

 

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

That's true, but even AU Bobby pinged on Cas being an angel from the get go. He opted not to kill him because he looked "different".

Sure, but I don’t see how that ties into whether or not they should realize Michael might be able to track Cas. All that tells TFW is that if Michael or any other angel found them they’d look at Cas and go "Castiel?" My point is just that I don’t see how Michael tracking Cas in AW could be a reason the boys could use to explain why Cas wasn’t going to be part of the rescue mission with the knowledge they currently have.

 

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

This particular incident isn't the first time we've been left scratching our heads as to where Cas is, or why they didn't try contacting him. It actually happens on a regular basis. Once in a great while they'll make a point of saying that so and so wasn't available, but normally, they just go about doing their thing by themselves. While I like Cas just fine, I don't find it to be a glaring omission like some do. But to each his own.

Admittedly, I have been very vocal on the "What about Cas" front. But that’s only lately. Back when it was just "Cas is mysterious and we don’t know why he flies into and out of the picture" I don’t think I wondered about him. Or when he was up running Heaven, or tooling around with Crowley, I didn’t find a lack of mention/contact between the boys and Cas to be a glaring omission because he had a plot line that wasn’t directly tied to what the boys were doing. But when it’s "Cas hasn’t been around lately because he’s looking for Jack, oh hey we found Jack" then it’s weird for them to either not call Cas, or apparently not mention it when Casmodeus checks in every day.

And then here, there's two ingredients down and two ingredients left. I’m fine with Cas not being around. I’m fine just being left to assume that Cas is most likely searching for Lucifer for the archangel grace ingredient while the boys research for any leads on the Seal of Solomon ingredient without it being explicitly stated. I’m not fine with the boys coming into possession of both of the remaining ingredients which they know Cas is searching for too, the boys knowing that Cas feels very strongly about protecting and saving Jack, and not having that be addressed in any way.

If Cas weren't tied directly to this plot line with his own investment, I wouldn’t care that they didn’t consider him. It would be like if they asked Jody to follow a possible lead on the Seal of Solomon out her way while they checked a different lead on it over their way just to increase their manpower, and then they decided to make the rift and go without talking about Jody. That wouldn’t bother me. I’d assume that they either told her offscreen already, or that Sam would do it shortly after Dean left, just as a courtesy so that she could stop wasting her time and I wouldn’t need to see it or have it mentioned. But that’s because Jody wouldn’t feel the need to do anything more than say good luck if she heard ahead of time that Dean was going in. Not the case with Cas.

 

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The thing is, just like Sam, Cas can go right ahead and decide if he's going to be a part of it. All he has to do is step through the rift. I'm guessing once he's over not being told before hand, he'll see the wisdom of Dean's plan. IMO, both of them should be camping out on this side to catch anything that might try to get through before Dean comes back.

Yes, Cas can go through the rift if he so chooses, and yes he might agree with Dean's plan (though I think he’d only agree that ONE of the three of them should stay back, and he’d agree with Dean it should be Sam). My issue isn’t "OMG, Dean went through without waiting for Cas!" My issue isn’t even that Dean didn’t mention Cas (since I’m buying into the theory that he’s been planning to go over on his own for a while so why would he suggest updating Cas and causing him to hurry back and be part of the trip?). My issue is that they have Dean saying he’s going right now and without Sam, Sam is not down, and Cas isn’t used in the argument in some way. 

S: Don’t you think Cas should be part of this?

D: Call him and send him over if he wants.

S: And how exactly is he supposed to find you? I doubt our cell phones are gonna work over there.

 

S: Fine, then as soon as Cas comes back, he’s getting stuck with babysitting duty and I’m coming in to help.

 

S: Wait for Cas at least!

D: I don’t wanna have to worry about him getting hurt either!

 

I definitely agree that the second the rift opened, guns should have gone up, and Sam shouldn’t put his down until it closes. It’s not like people have to knock before they can come in.

Edited April 10, 2018 by takalotti

[Myrelle]

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And I don't recall anyone saying Sam was a dictator, or comparing him with John.

Response taken to all episodes.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Myrelle

[Bella-UK]

On 06/04/2018 at 2:11 AM, MysteryGuest said:

because where else would he be?

Could he be in Heaven perhaps, as he still has a strong feeling of duty to the place the times he has wanted to repair heaven and not got any where. 

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, Bella-UK said:

Could he be in Heaven perhaps, as he still has a strong feeling of duty to the place the times he has wanted to repair heaven and not got any where. 

WEll, for his sake I hope not. Seeing as how Lucifer is up there running the joint, if Cas is there, he's not leaving any time soon.

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, Bella-UK said:

Could he be in Heaven perhaps, as he still has a strong feeling of duty to the place the times he has wanted to repair heaven and not got any where. 

I don't think Cas is so concerned about these days. I think if it was he would have allowed them to go after Jack who they want to use to rebuild Heaven. He was dead set against it. I think Cas' priorities are save Jack and protect the Winchesters.

[takalotti]

6 hours ago, Bella-UK said:

Could he be in Heaven perhaps, as he still has a strong feeling of duty to the place the times he has wanted to repair heaven and not got any where. 

Well, he’s not just hanging out there killing time, I’m sure. Cas has been even more anxious than the boys to get the ingredients.

Is it possible he went there to see if anyone heard anything about Lucifer (because they need his grace)? Yes, but I’d say highly unlikely. The last time he met with anyone from Heaven was when he was looking for Jack, to see if they’d heard anything. They tried to take Cas by force since they wanted Jack and knew that Cas might be able to influence Jack. I think he’d only try talking to them again as a last resort.

[MysteryGuest]

I don't believe that even now Cas is all that welcome in Heaven.  He's done a lot of damage there.  It's usually a pretty stressful thing when he goes back, and he normally doesn't inform the Winchesters when he does.