S13.E17: The Thing

[SueB]

Cas can open the rift, he's been there too.

Upon second watch I found a bit of foreshadowing of Dean's choice:  Sam starts to tell Dean that Dean should get Sandy someplace safe and he (Sam) will go back to the Chapter House. Dean immediately kabooshes that idea and says he's NOT letting Sam go alone.  That they'll find Sandy a motel and show her how to work a TV. Now that HAD to be intentional foreshadowing.  Sam can't go back to a MoL Chapter House alone but Dean can go into Apocalypse World alone?  I'm fairly certain we are supposed to notice that what was good for the goose was not good for the gander. 

I'm still somewhat stunned Sam accepted his reasoning.  Splitting up (one going with one staying back) had logic.  But not waiting for Cas?  Just a glaring concern.  5 minutes before they were still having to go hunt for Archangel grace.  Now that they have it, it's suddenly a time crisis?  Nope.  That's intentional misdirection by Dean.   He's going alone on purpose (Ketch is going because he'd rather have him there than backstabbing Sammy).  

There is (IMO) definitely more to this than the simple story Dean tried to pass off to Sam.  And Sam's smart, it'll come to him that something is afoot.  Soon.  

[Casseiopeia]

5 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I don't see why Dean would be expected to call Jody, Donna, Claire, Alex, Garth, his electric company or the world at large.  He definitely does not want them as backup, which would put them in danger, and he has no obligation to check in with them when he makes a decision (the reverse is equally true) .  And somebody does know where he's going: Sam, who is also the only person on this side who could re-open the rift.

I don't think Dean would have taken Cas with him.  Doing so would both put Cas in potential danger--and Dean didn't want to do that any more than he wanted Sam put in danger--and it would also have endangered the mission, IMO. Yes, Cas still has certain angelic abilities that in many situations would be very useful but, for me, in AU World, they would possibly have gotten in the way:  I don't believe Cas could use his abilities without pinging Michael's radar, especially now that Michael is aware of the our universe and the possibility of a rift.  Cas is not a match for Michael.  So stealth is the way to go and Cas' being there could be the equivalent of turning on a neon sign.

Except the logical thing to have done was to call Cas to babysit/heal Gabriel (he is after all Gabe's brother) while Sam and Dean rescue their mother and Jack.  Cas has been through the rift so he can also perform the spell to mount a rescue if needed.  He is still an angel with some of his powers so he is more capable than Sam would have been to deal with Ketch.    I get separating the brothers was for some sort of dramatic future plot (probably has something to do with Dean's upcoming possession?) but it wasn't logical...at least IMO.

[Jeddah]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Except the logical thing to have done was to call Cas to babysit/heal Gabriel (he is after all Gabe's brother) while Sam and Dean rescue their mother and Jack.  Cas has been through the rift so he can also perform the spell to mount a rescue if needed.  He is still an angel with some of his powers so he is more capable than Sam would have been to deal with Ketch.    I get separating the brothers was for some sort of dramatic future plot (probably has something to do with Dean's upcoming possession?) but it wasn't logical...at least IMO.

I totally agree. Cas got the fruit from the Tree of Life. He was clearly involved in the plan. Why leave him out now?

[bethy]

I considered posting this in the Unpopular Opinions thread, but... :)

For me, there was no indication in the show that either Sam or Dean thought about Cas in that last scene. As far as I remember Cas wasn't mentioned at all. I think that when they got the last ingredient all Dean could think was "Save mom now." I think his reasoning for leaving Sam behind - and ultimately it wasn't fully a "I have to do this alone" reason since he was okay with Ketch tagging along - was exactly what he said: protect Sam and have backup on this side of the rift (also tied to save mom now). I don't think he was rushing because he was afraid Sam would mention Cas or because he was trying to get out of there before Cas could get there in order to protect him. I think, honestly, if Cas had been there and said, "I'm going," Dean's response would have been the same one he had for Ketch - "Fine. Let's go." I think all Dean had on the brain was saving Mary, and it didn't matter to him who went with him as long as it wasn't Sam.

The rift is open for the next 24 hours, right? There's nothing to prevent Cas, or Sam for that matter, from coming through later. Dean didn't say, "And don't let Cas come through, either." I don't think Dean has the same protection-drive for Cas that he does for Sam. Yes, he loves Cas and considers him family, but Cas is also an angel. I think Dean would absolutely jump in front of a bullet to save Cas, but I'm just not sure that protecting Cas motivates Dean the same way protecting Sam does. 

[Aeryn13]

While the ending was rushed, Dean gave a sound tactical reasoning for why one of them should stay behind. If something goes wrong - and history suggests it will - the other is there as back-up. To me it`s a different scenario then potentially splitting up earlier so one goes to the Chapter House and one goes with Sandy. They shouldn`t all go into the rift. It always annoys me so much when groups charge into a place with a "door" open and noone stays behind to watch that door. I`ve seen so many idiots get trapped in tombs and crypts for that reason.

And I think Dean stated his reasoning calmly. He didn`t yell or anything. If Sam absolutely wanted to object, noone was stopping him.  

IMO Dean has natural leadership abilities and that is why people follow him, even if they have objections. If people absolutely lose trust in him and his abilities, they obviously would not go along with his plans. 

I found it done much better than when Sam did that second trial of going into hell and Dean wanted to come with because strength in numbers and Sam`s answer was pretty much "no, this is my thing, stay back and wait for me in the kitchen". Like, wow, that was a strategically sound response. 

Obviously, things will go wrong and if Sam (and Cas) have to come to the rescue, well, that was part of the plan.   

Edited April 7, 2018 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Jeddah said:

I totally agree. Cas got the fruit from the Tree of Life. He was clearly involved in the plan. Why leave him out now?

I can't understand the complete lack of mention of Cas at all in this episode.They could have at least said he had decided to go to Heaven trying  to get Lucifer's grace so they couldn't call him.I don't think it is because the writers hate Cas. I think it's because they too often write for plot.

Even if Gabriel was there I don't think Cas would have not gone with Dean to save  his foster son. So they  ignored him totally which only makes his absence all the more glaring. Perez has a bad habit of not explaining a character's absence for plot.its ankiying.

Edited April 7, 2018 by catrox14

[sarthaz]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I can't understand the complete lack of mention of Cas at all in this episode.They could have at least said he had decided to go to Heaven trying  to get Lucifer's grace so they couldn't call him.I don't think it is because the writers hate Cas. I think it's because they too often write for plot.

Even if Gabriel was there I don't think Cas would have not gone with Dean to save  his foster son. So they  ignored him totally which only makes his absence all the more glaring. Perez has a bad habit of not explaining a character's absence for plot.its ankiying.

Agreed. I get they want Dean and Ketch in AW together. Cool. No problem with that. Just throw in an explainer, McG.

Sam: Should we call Cas?

Dean: No, because [reasons]

Even if [reasons] are dumb, it's better than ignoring him entirely.

[Aeryn13]

Would have been simple. Introduce the notion that one of the ingredients is going critical and invalid if not used in the next hour. Establish that they tried to reach Cas but somehow couldn`t. So they are going forward with it. 

If you want, start the next episode with the exact same scene but have Cas arrive just... too late and explain that he couldn`t be reached because x, y, z in Heaven. For example ruckus about a resurfaced archangel. That ties neatly back to Cas going "whuzzuh?" when he sees Gabe. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Would have been simple. Introduce the notion that one of the ingredients is going critical and invalid if not used in the next hour. Establish that they tried to reach Cas but somehow couldn`t. So they are going forward with it. 

Exactly.

[takalotti]

I didn’t even need one of the ingredients to have an expiration. Episode started with them looking for the SoS. Maybe Cas was also looking for it, but in China. It would have been totally fine with me if they didn’t want to wait for his wingless trip back, even with no other time constraints.

[Bobcatkitten]

The show has kind of created this problem by having Cas become such a big part of the show. Now everything single thing the brothers do people are like, "what about Cas?" And because of that it seems disjointed. Sometimes they call Cas and sometimes they don't. They need to find a purpose for Cas besides occasionally helping the Winchesters to make it plausible for why he can't be there all the time. Maybe running heaven? 

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

The show has kind of created this problem by having Cas become such a big part of the show. Now everything single thing the brothers do people are like, "what about Cas?" And because of that it seems disjointed. Sometimes they call Cas and sometimes they don't. They need to find a purpose for Cas besides occasionally helping the Winchesters to make it plausible for why he can't be there all the time. Maybe running heaven? 

The audience doesn't always ask after Cas despite him being a big part and IMO valuable part of the show.

It's typically only brought up when

1) Cas was just in the previous episode with the boys and they are working together on the same mission i.e. opening the rift

2) There is something or someone who is directly and highly pertinent to Cas himself  i.e. Claire being turned into a werewolf and nearly dying, or not being allowed for....reasons to help go after Jack, who is the child that aligned himself with Cas and named him as his foster father. 

Pretty sure there would be a fraction of the 'What about Cas' questions if they simply gave even a stupid nonsensical explanation. 

[DeeDee79]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The audience doesn't always ask after Cas despite him being a big part and IMO valuable part of the show.

It's typically only brought up when

1) Cas was just in the previous episode with the boys and they are working together on the same mission i.e. opening the rift

2) There is something or someone who is directly and highly pertinent to Cas himself  i.e. Claire being turned into a werewolf and nearly dying, or not being allowed for....reasons to help go after Jack, who is the child that aligned himself with Cas and named him as his foster father. 

Pretty sure there would be a fraction of the 'What about Cas' questions if they simply gave even a stupid nonsensical explanation. 

I agree that Cas should have gotten a mention since he's been actively helping the brothers with the spell and he's as invested as they are at this point. I'm iffy on the Claire/Werewolf situation mostly because of her strained relationship with Cas. In that situation I think that Jody is who should have been notified of what was going on before Cas. This is just IMO since she's who Claire actually considers to be her family at this point; I know that others may not agree.

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This is just IMO since she's who Claire actually considers to be her family at this point; I know that others may not agree

I thought they were on good terms at that point though? In s10, she hugged him, kept his Grumpy Cat gift from Hot Topical and asked Dean to look after him. I understand she saw Jody as a mother figure but AFAIR there wasn't any bad blood between them.

I think also, that once it appeared Claire might die I still think a call to Cas would still have been important.  Which does bring up a question.   Cas can heal most injuries. I wonder if he would be able to heal Claire before she turned?

And here with Jack being Cas' family as well, to not even mention him is just....bad writing IMO.

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think also, that once it appeared Claire might die I still think a call to Cas would still have been important.

They did part on good terms but I didn't say that Cas shouldn't have been called at all; just that it would have made more sense at that point to think of Jody as the first point of contact. Especially since there had already been mention of Claire's relationship with Jody during the ep and not a mention of Cas. MMV. 

 

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Cas can heal most injuries. I wonder if he would be able to heal Claire before she turned?

Can he heal supernatural based injuries? I wonder since he couldn't heal the MOC. Though that may have been a different case since it was a biblical curse or "godlike magic" as Metatron said.

Edited April 8, 2018 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

They did part on good terms but I didn't say that Cas shouldn't have been called at all; just that it would have made more sense at that point to think of Jody as the first point of contact. Especially since there had already been mention of Claire's relationship with Jody during the ep and not a mention of Cas. MMV. 

Now that I think about it, weren't Jody and Claire on bad terms during that episode until she called Jody to apologize and thank her at the end?

I will grudgingly accept even ludicrous reasons for Cas being unavailable. They just need to cover those gaps and I can't understand why they don't. It's mystifying storytelling IMO

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Now that I think about it, weren't Jody and Claire on bad terms during that episode until she called Jody to apologize and thank her at the end?

I don't think that they were on bad terms. Claire went out on her own because she was frustrated about Jody not letting her be fully involved on hunts. She told her that she was looking at colleges so she wouldn't worry about her being gone. 

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I will grudgingly accept even ludicrous reasons for Cas being unavailable. They just need to cover those gaps and I can't understand why they don't. It's mystifying storytelling IMO

What mystifies me is Cas going to Syria and back without wings! Did he buy a plane ticket??

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

What mystifies me is Cas going to Syria and back without wings! Did he buy a plane ticket??

I was listening to a podcast or a you tube review wherein someone had a theory that Cas just flew a normal flight under Jimmy Novak's documents which they said he had used before. And I thought, well, that makes perfect sense!  I have to look for it.

[Castiels Cat]

19 hours ago, SueB said:

Cas can open the rift, he's been there too.

Upon second watch I found a bit of foreshadowing of Dean's choice:  Sam starts to tell Dean that Dean should get Sandy someplace safe and he (Sam) will go back to the Chapter House. Dean immediately kabooshes that idea and says he's NOT letting Sam go alone.  That they'll find Sandy a motel and show her how to work a TV. Now that HAD to be intentional foreshadowing.  Sam can't go back to a MoL Chapter House alone but Dean can go into Apocalypse World alone?  I'm fairly certain we are supposed to notice that what was good for the goose was not good for the gander. 

I'm still somewhat stunned Sam accepted his reasoning.  Splitting up (one going with one staying back) had logic.  But not waiting for Cas?  Just a glaring concern.  5 minutes before they were still having to go hunt for Archangel grace.  Now that they have it, it's suddenly a time crisis?  Nope.  That's intentional misdirection by Dean.   He's going alone on purpose (Ketch is going because he'd rather have him there than backstabbing Sammy).  

There is (IMO) definitely more to this than the simple story Dean tried to pass off to Sam.  And Sam's smart, it'll come to him that something is afoot.  Soon.  

I agree.  As I have said before, they have done an excellent job of setting Things up for Dean to do one of his Dean Winchester specials ... he will be doing the reckless sacrifice thing big time and we will be seeing Dean!Michael.

[Lemuria]

Just briefly about the post-it notes, I thought Dean was trying to possibly start a prank war in hopes of lightening up Sam's mood.

I don't quite understand the arguments I've seen that there was no time imperative and so it could have waited.  Maybe to us there wasn't but not to Dean, and I assume, not to Sam.  As far as they know, their mother is being tortured (that was the last thing they'd heard about it).  I don't understand how that would not create a tremendous sense of urgency.  "Sure, no rush.  We can just wait here while they stick more lit matches under Mom's fingernails."

(I also think that, because Cas is absent from episodes often enough, the general audience would have little to no issue with this, versus the way fandom might feel about it.)

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I don't quite understand the arguments I've seen that there was no time imperative and so it could have waited.  Maybe to us there wasn't but not to Dean, and I assume, not to Sam.  As far as they know, their mother is being tortured (that was the last thing they'd heard about it).  I don't understand how that would not create a tremendous sense of urgency.  "Sure, no rush.  We can just wait here while they stick more lit matches under Mom's fingernails."

(I also think that, because Cas is absent from episodes often enough, the general audience would have little to no issue with this, versus the way fandom might feel about it.)

I'm not so sure about that. The general audience is basically fandom. I mean it has a loyal audience that stays pretty consistent in viewership so to me they are the ones that are side eying it. If Cas wasn't already involved in the mission and search for the spell ingredients then sure his absence would be less noticeable and possibly understandable, but he was so it's more glaring.

[MysteryGuest]

Normally it doesn't bother me too much when they don't stop in mid crisis to call someone, whether it's Cas, Jody, whomever.  They don't usually have the luxury of time to wait while that person gets to wherever they are to be part of the decision.  Yes, they could speak over the phone, but I think realistically, that would just bog down the story.  I don't disagree that both Cas and Jody have a vested interest in Claire, or in this case Jack, but when they're not actually in the episode, sometimes the mention of them seems forced.  I think it's a combination of clumsy writing and funky acting schedules.  

The reality is that Cas is back, but we rarely see him.  I don't even know at this point whether he lives in the Bunker, or has his own angel digs somewhere else.  He flits in and out and most of the time when he's not onscreen, we don't know where he is or what he's doing.  They have in the past made mention of him by saying that he's binging on Netflix, or off looking for something, but at times I think those mentions draw more attention to the fact that he's missing than just not mentioning him at all.  At least in the early seasons, the assumption was he was in Heaven until they needed him, or he needed them.  He wasn't living under their roof.  They really need to give him a purpose, other than just hanging out with Sam and Dean, to explain his frequent absences.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

hey really need to give him a purpose, other than just hanging out with Sam and Dean, to explain his frequent absences.

They have explained most of his longer absences. In s12, he went to Heaven. The audience knew but the boys didn't. He told Mary he stays in the bunker at night even though he doesn't sleep. So it seems to me he's there pretty often. Then this season he was kidnapped by Asmodeus which the audience knew but the boys didn't. In this episode, the audience doesn't know if the boys know where he is which I would have expected to learn once they decided to use the ingredients he went halfway around the world to get. And he went on that mission before the Scooby episode, it was mentioned in the Scooby episode and yet the ep wherein they use the ingredients he gathered, his name isn't even mentioned which is why I think so many people have complained about it.

[AwesomO4000]

On 4/5/2018 at 9:47 PM, Castiels Cat said:

Nyet nyet nyet! They already said only a fcking archangel can use an archangel blade so why can Letch use it.

On 4/6/2018 at 8:55 AM, DittyDotDot said:

Only an archangel can use it to kill another archangel, but I suspect it works like any other angel blade in non-archangel hands--meaning, you can kill some things, but not other things.

I haven't gotten a chance to watch the episode yet, but I wanted to comment on this. I'm not sure exactly where things got interpreted that supposedly only an archangel can use an archangel blade to kill another archangel, but I'm not so sure about that. (I'll get to that part in a minute.) We'd had Uriel previously assuring that only angels could kill other angels, but that turned out to be because angels had to be killed with angel blades... which previously only angels had, so for me, it's because of the blades. Archangels can only be killed by archangel blades, but I think the blade can be in anyone's hands and get the job done. Gabriel himself gave the clue that an archangel can be killed with an archangel blade by someone other than an archangel. It's why Gabriel made a fake archangel blade out of a can of Diet Orange Slice in "Hammer of the Gods." When Dean asked Gabriel why he wasn't dead, Gabriel's explanation was because the blade Kali used was the fake he made, not that only an archangel can kill another archangel. If that was the case, I'm not sure Gabriel would have bothered to make a fake, because at that point Lucifer wasn't there and they had no idea he'd even be coming just then. And Gabriel explained his making the fake specifically because "You think I'd give Kali my real sword? That thing can kill me!" If  it only worked in the hands of an archangel, then Gabriel wouldn't have been that concerned, in my opinion.

So I think it's much like Death's scythe could kill Death. An archangel blade can kill an archangel, period, no matter who wields it... Much like an angel blade can kill an angel even if it's a human or a demon who uses it. Otherwise Gabriel wouldn't have cared if Kali stuck him with his blade, because she's not an archangel, and so therefore it presumably wouldn't have killed him. But instead he went through the trouble of making a fake so there wasn't a chance he'd get stuck with the real archangel blade that might kill him.

13 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Obviously, things will go wrong and if Sam (and Cas) have to come to the rescue, well, that was part of the plan.  

I wish I could be as confident as you that the show might have Sam and Cas save Dean in a major way, but I'm not. I give it a 50/50 chance with the other 50 being that Sam and Castiel try to do something, screw it up and get in trouble and Benny Ketch is the one who saves Dean from the Alternate Universe so that he can come bail Sam and Castiel out of trouble... after having to do something drastic / awful / harmful to himself to do so. *Sigh*

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I think also, that once it appeared Claire might die I still think a call to Cas would still have been important.  Which does bring up a question.   Cas can heal most injuries. I wonder if he would be able to heal Claire before she turned?

He stopped Dean from turning into a Jefferson Starship, even when the infection came directly from Eve.  

 

49 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

(I also think that, because Cas is absent from episodes often enough, the general audience would have little to no issue with this, versus the way fandom might feel about it.)

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not so sure about that. The general audience is basically fandom. I mean it has a loyal audience that stays pretty consistent in viewership so to me they are the ones that are side eying it.

It seems to me there's a difference between viewers (ie, the "audience") vs. "fandom" which seems to be the more vocal part of the audience.  I'd say that viewers are (or should be) fans, because otherwise, why watch?  But the viewers number in the millions (per the ratings).  The number of fans who post on this site, at least,  are probably less than a hundred at the moment (with others lurking who show up now and then or used to post more).  I don't know about other sites, but the reviews/comments I've seen quoted or linked are nowhere near the 1.8 million viewers of this last ep.   So doesn't it seem that the vast majority of the audience is either not reading, lurking but not posting, or not complaining? 

[bethy]

But I’m not sure how many viewers actually are side-eying it. I’m not. I like Cas just fine, but generally I don’t notice or much care when he isn’t part of or mentioned in an episode. It honestly didn’t even register to me that Dean headed into the rift without talking to or about Cas.

Obviously it does matter to some people and that’s fair, but I don’t know that that translates into a general feeling that the lack of mention of Cas was glaring.

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I haven't gotten a chance to watch the episode yet, but I wanted to comment on this. I'm not sure exactly where things got interpreted that supposedly only an archangel can use an archangel blade to kill another archangel, but I'm not so sure about that.

That's what Asmodeus said. He said that only an archangel can kill another archangel with an archangel blade which is why he captured Gabriel.

[AwesomO4000]

Ah, okay... I guess the writers changed canon then. I'll have to go back and see what the wording is. If Asmodeus said something about needing an archangel to kill an archangel, it could be about the blade, since presumably without an archangel there wouldn't be a blade. But then again, even that's not necessarily true, because a "god upgrade" will also do it. After ingesting the purgatory souls, Castiel was able to smite Raphael rather easily, no blade required.

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Ah, okay... I guess the writers changed canon then. I'll have to go back and see what the wording is. If Asmodeus said something about needing an archangel to kill an archangel, it could be about the blade, since presumably without an archangel there wouldn't be a blade. But then again, even that's not necessarily true, because a "god upgrade" will also do it. After ingesting the purgatory souls, Castiel was able to smite Raphael rather easily, no blade required.

My reading of it was that if you want to kill an archangel with an archangel blade, you need another archangel to wield the archangel blade. I'm sure there are other ways an archangel can die, though. From The Devil's Bargain transcript:

Asmodeus: The only known weapon capable of destroying an archangel -- the archangel blade.
Ketch: You'll forgive me, but my reading of the lore suggests that the... blade is only effective if wielded by an archangel.
Asmodeus: Oh, really? Thanks for the news flash. Allow me to make an introduction. Mr. Ketch... Meet the Archangel Gabriel.

[Ria]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

My reading of it was that if you want to kill an archangel with an archangel blade, you need another archangel to wield the archangel blade. I'm sure there are other ways an archangel can die, though. From The Devil's Bargain transcript:

Asmodeus: The only known weapon capable of destroying an archangel -- the archangel blade.
Ketch: You'll forgive me, but my reading of the lore suggests that the... blade is only effective if wielded by an archangel.
Asmodeus: Oh, really? Thanks for the news flash. Allow me to make an introduction. Mr. Ketch... Meet the Archangel Gabriel.

I supposed we’re not supposed to ask where this lore came from. Were people running around stabbing archangels with archangel blades in the past? 

And why are humans and demons not having their eyes burned out by this angel grace everyone can now look at? 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Ria

[SueB]

11 hours ago, ahrtee said:

He stopped Dean from turning into a Jefferson Starship, even when the infection came directly from Eve.  

True but he was MUCH more powerful in S6.  And he gained power by being given 50 thousand souls from Crowley.  I'm not sure how that works but the implication (in S6) is that the amount of souls you control is directly related to you power.

Since that time:
- He rebooted with a tiny bit of his own grace
- He was possessed by Lucifer but then Luci was extracted by Amara
- He's been in God's presence but not specifically "healed" by God (although Lucifer was).
- Died and spit out of the Empty.

I'd say he's at best Cas Season 4 power with no wings. 

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

My reading of it was that if you want to kill an archangel with an archangel blade, you need another archangel to wield the archangel blade. I'm sure there are other ways an archangel can die, though. From The Devil's Bargain transcript:

Asmodeus: The only known weapon capable of destroying an archangel -- the archangel blade.
Ketch: You'll forgive me, but my reading of the lore suggests that the... blade is only effective if wielded by an archangel.
Asmodeus: Oh, really? Thanks for the news flash. Allow me to make an introduction. Mr. Ketch... Meet the Archangel Gabriel.

Thank you for the dialogue... I guess the question(s) then becomes do I believe Ketch knows what he is talking about, and even if he did, is he telling the truth? Asmodeus appears to also believe that interpretation of the lore - though as @Ria points out, I'm not sure exactly how that lore would have even come into being never mind be tested as true or not - but for me it doesn't quite explain Asmodeus' actions. If he needs Gabriel to actually wield the sword to kill Michael, wouldn't he want Gabriel in tip top fighting shape to do that rather than weakening him by stealing his grace and doing whatever else he's doing to him? It all seems pretty dubious to me.

There's also still the question of if the lore is true and you need an archangel to wield the sword, then why was Gabriel concerned enough about the gods in "Hammer of the Gods" stabbing him with his own blade that he made a fake one out of a soda can just in case they took his blade from him ...and then explained to Dean why he wouldn't let Kali get a hold of the real one, because "that thing can kill me". Such a precaution shouldn't have been necessary if only another archangel could kill him with it.

I'm thinking that if the "lore" Ketch is talking about is true, that this is a change in what we've seen previously. It would make more sense to me that the rules would be the same as the rules for Death and his scythe and regular angels and angel blades.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

True but he was MUCH more powerful in S6.  And he gained power by being given 50 thousand souls from Crowley.  I'm not sure how that works but the implication (in S6) is that the amount of souls you control is directly related to you power.

Since that time:
- He rebooted with a tiny bit of his own grace
- He was possessed by Lucifer but then Luci was extracted by Amara
- He's been in God's presence but not specifically "healed" by God (although Lucifer was).
- Died and spit out of the Empty.

I'd say he's at best Cas Season 4 power with no wings. 

I'm not saying you're wrong (I know he's at a much lower power now than he's been in a long time) but he healed Dean right after Eve had stripped him of all his powers, which was *also* right after Frontierland where he was so depleted by injury (and time travel) that he barely survived himself.   I don't know how long it takes for him to reboot, but I'm going to assume that all that must have used much of Crowley's donated souls, which is why he was so desperate for more.  

His power levels have fluctuated with every storyline, depending on what they wanted/needed him to do.  He didn't hesitate or even stop to think if he could heal Dean, just did it matter-of-factly.  It didn't seem like it was even a question.  But no one even asked him when Dean was vamped, so....*shrugs*  

I'm also guessing he's now back to standard-seraphim status (minus the wings).  But that seemed pretty powerful, even back in season 4 (he could bring people back to life, for example!) 

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

His power levels have fluctuated with every storyline, depending on what they wanted/needed him to do.  He didn't hesitate or even stop to think if he could heal Dean, just did it matter-of-factly.  It didn't seem like it was even a question.  But no one even asked him when Dean was vamped, so....*shrugs*  

Cas wasn't really answering them back then.  The next episode, Dean called for him because of the horn of Gabriel and when Cas showed up, Dean proceeded to yell at him for not answering when he's been calling for weeks.  So, it makes sense they didn't think to ask him.

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Cas wasn't really answering them back then.  The next episode, Dean called for him because of the horn of Gabriel and when Cas showed up, Dean proceeded to yell at him for not answering when he's been calling for weeks.  So, it makes sense they didn't think to ask him.

Yes, he wasn't answering (though the fact that he did when they called about the horn of Gabriel showed they did still call him.)  And I'd think trying him would take precedence (for Dean at least) over calling Samuel to kill him.  Sam knew Samuel could cure him, but Dean just expected to die.  

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Thank you for the dialogue... I guess the question(s) then becomes do I believe Ketch knows what he is talking about, and even if he did, is he telling the truth? Asmodeus appears to also believe that interpretation of the lore - though as @Ria points out, I'm not sure exactly how that lore would have even come into being never mind be tested as true or not - but for me it doesn't quite explain Asmodeus' actions. If he needs Gabriel to actually wield the sword to kill Michael, wouldn't he want Gabriel in tip top fighting shape to do that rather than weakening him by stealing his grace and doing whatever else he's doing to him? It all seems pretty dubious to me.

There's also still the question of if the lore is true and you need an archangel to wield the sword, then why was Gabriel concerned enough about the gods in "Hammer of the Gods" stabbing him with his own blade that he made a fake one out of a soda can just in case they took his blade from him ...and then explained to Dean why he wouldn't let Kali get a hold of the real one, because "that thing can kill me". Such a precaution shouldn't have been necessary if only another archangel could kill him with it.

I'm thinking that if the "lore" Ketch is talking about is true, that this is a change in what we've seen previously. It would make more sense to me that the rules would be the same as the rules for Death and his scythe and regular angels and angel blades.

Honestly, I think the answer is LOLcanon. I think the intention is that it is true and is a retcon.

[catrox14]

14 hours ago, bethy said:

But I’m not sure how many viewers actually are side-eying it. I’m not. I like Cas just fine, but generally I don’t notice or much care when he isn’t part of or mentioned in an episode. It honestly didn’t even register to me that Dean headed into the rift without talking to or about Cas.

Obviously it does matter to some people and that’s fair, but I don’t know that that translates into a general feeling that the lack of mention of Cas was glaring.

 

14 hours ago, ahrtee said:

He stopped Dean from turning into a Jefferson Starship, even when the infection came directly from Eve.  

 

It seems to me there's a difference between viewers (ie, the "audience") vs. "fandom" which seems to be the more vocal part of the audience.  I'd say that viewers are (or should be) fans, because otherwise, why watch?  But the viewers number in the millions (per the ratings).  The number of fans who post on this site, at least,  are probably less than a hundred at the moment (with others lurking who show up now and then or used to post more).  I don't know about other sites, but the reviews/comments I've seen quoted or linked are nowhere near the 1.8 million viewers of this last ep.   So doesn't it seem that the vast majority of the audience is either not reading, lurking but not posting, or not complaining? 

 

 

 

 

I'm not limiting my observations and opinion to this community. Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter I think are more reflective of the general/casual audience than us here. I don't follow the Supernatural tag on Instagram, but I do on Twitter and I saw a lot of complaints ( I mean tweet after tweet was like WTF why aren't you waiting for Cas? "

And whilst neither of us have complete numbers, (which would be interesting to know TBH) I'm comfortable saying that based on what I saw, there was consternation and discussion about Cas not being called, nor mentioned and it wasn't just Cas fans/stans complaining about "POOR CAS. The show is so mean to him".   It was an issue with story telling as some of us have mentioned here, which is really my point.

Edited April 8, 2018 by catrox14

[catrox14]

On 4/7/2018 at 4:09 AM, Jeddah said:

I totally agree. Cas got the fruit from the Tree of Life. He was clearly involved in the plan. Why leave him out now?

The fact that Dean, himself, remarked to Sam, that Cas was off "dodging bullets in Syria" made it clear that it was kind of dangerous for Cas to go, and then we see him come back in Scoobynatural explaining to them how the trip went. He wasn't just involved, he was integral to the mission.

It's funny that this is a Davy Perez episode and we had the big debate about Dean just going missing and his absence not explained either in s12 in the Magda episode.  Maybe Davy is a troll and knows that not mentioning a key character will just get fans riled up.

3 hours ago, SueB said:

True but he was MUCH more powerful in S6.  And he gained power by being given 50 thousand souls from Crowley.  I'm not sure how that works but the implication (in S6) is that the amount of souls you control is directly related to you power.

I thought that was only about the power for an army not Cas' personal power. He didn't absorb the souls he had been to Purgatory. I'm not really following what you mean here.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Cas wasn't really answering them back then.  The next episode, Dean called for him because of the horn of Gabriel and when Cas showed up, Dean proceeded to yell at him for not answering when he's been calling for weeks.  So, it makes sense they didn't think to ask him.

While that's true back then, I'm not seeing that being applicable here when Cas was integral to the mission. Different circumstances.

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought that was only about the power for an army not Cas' personal power. He didn't absorb the souls he had been to Purgatory. I'm not really following what you mean here.

Cass absorbed the souls from Purgatory at the end of S6 in order to power up and beat Raphael. He returned most of those souls at the start of S7 once he realized he couldn't control that much power, but the Levis hung on. So, yes, it was personal power, not to power his army. 

ETA: Crowley also loaned him 50,000 souls from Hell at the beginning of the season in order to power up to make his stand against Raphael. But, that wasn't enough power to defeat him, only enough to give a show of force to get other angels to follow him.

Edited April 8, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Cass absorbed the souls from Purgatory at the end of S6 in order to power up and beat Raphael. He returned most of those souls at the start of S7 once he realized he couldn't control that much power, but the Levis hung on. 

Yes, I know. I said that he didn't absorb the souls until he went over to Purgatory.

That's also not what I was trying to understand WRT to this comment.

Quote

True but he was MUCH more powerful in S6.  And he gained power by being given 50 thousand souls from Crowley.  I'm not sure how that works but the implication (in S6) is that the amount of souls you control is directly related to you power.

He didn't use the souls during s6 and then they nearly killed him in the s6 finale and the Leviathan killed him in s7. 

So I'm just not quite seeing what the souls had to do with his power overall throughout s6 which is how I interpreted her comment and asked her about it.

[ahrtee]

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And whilst neither of us have complete numbers, (which would be interesting to know TBH) I'm comfortable saying that based on what I saw, there was consternation and discussion about Cas not being called, nor mentioned and it wasn't just Cas fans/stans complaining about "POOR CAS. The show is so mean to him".   It was an issue with story telling as some of us have mentioned here, which is really my point.

I'm not saying that there wasn't consternation among viewers, including those who aren't "just" Cas-stans.  My disagreement was your equating those who post, either on forums or SM, with the entire (or even just the majority of) viewers.  The vocal fans are *part* of the audience, not the whole thing.  That's kind of dismissive of the silent fans who express their opinions by watching or not, which will affect the ratings, not by posting a comment.  

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not saying that there wasn't consternation among viewers, including those who aren't "just" Cas-stans.  My disagreement was your equating those who post, either on forums or SM, with the entire (or even just the majority of) viewers.  The vocal fans are *part* of the audience, not the whole thing.  That's kind of dismissive of the silent fans who express their opinions by watching or not, which will affect the ratings, not by posting a comment.  

I'm excluding them because I (we) don't know their opinion which is not the same as "dismissing" them (which is a really unnecessarily negative way to interpret that).

As to expressing their opinions by watching or not, they may watch because they like Dean or Sam or Cas or TFW, or Baby or Jack or Mary or any number of reasons unrelated to the immediate discussion of whether fans were irritated by the lack of mention of Cas or not. I don't see ratings being relevant to this.

[bearcatfan]

Wasn't The Jefferson Starship thing spread like a viral infection? Maybe that's why Cas could heal Dean that time. The others don't spread like a virus. Unless I'm forgetting something, which I probably am. 

[DittyDotDot]

54 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So I'm just not quite seeing what the souls had to do with his power overall throughout s6 which is how I interpreted her comment and asked her about it.

S6 was all about the souls and how they powered Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. The more souls you had, the more power you had.  Cass may not have used the souls from Purgatory throughout the season, but he was using Hell's soul power to wage his war against Raphael as part of his bargain with Crowley until they found Purgatory. Without Crowley's help, Cass would've never been able to stand up to Raphael in the first place, let alone wage a war with him for almost two years. 

Edited April 8, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

S6 was all about the souls and how they powered Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. The more souls you had, the more power you had.  Cass may not have used the souls from Purgatory until the end of the season, but he was using Hell's soul power to wage his war against Raphael as part of his bargain with Crowley until they found Purgatory throughout the season. Without Crowley's help, Cass would've never been able to stand up to Raphael in the first place, let alone wage a war with him for almost two years. 

Yep. That's what happened in s6.  Still I'm saying that I'm not sure what Sue was meaning in her comment. Hopefully, she'll come around and clarify it for the both of us.

17 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Wasn't The Jefferson Starship thing spread like a viral infection? Maybe that's why Cas could heal Dean that time. The others don't spread like a virus. Unless I'm forgetting something, which I probably am. 

Angels have resurrected someone from the dead (Gadreel resurrected Cas, Jack resurrected Cas. Cas can heal broken arms, someone almost beaten to death...you name it. I think Cas healing powers are a direct correlation to the amount of Plotonium in any given episode.

[DittyDotDot]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yep. That's what happened in s6.  Still I'm saying that I'm not sure what Sue was meaning in her comment. Hopefully, she'll come around and clarify it for the both of us.

I think @SueB was simply suggesting that the reason Cass could heal Dean from the Jefferson Starships in S6--and maybe couldn't have cured Claire of werewolf-ism in S12--was because he had access to a bunch of soul power in S6 which made him more powerful and able to do more. 

ETA: TBH, I'm not sure I agree. I mean, I agree Cass was more powered up in S6, but Jefferson Starships were basically like any other monster in that they were mutated humans. I'd say that werewolf-ism is also virus-like, it just spreads by bite instead of being airborne. I think Cass probably can cure werewolf-ism as long as it's in it's early stages like the Jefferson Starship was for Dean. I would say by the time they called Cass and got him there, it would've been probably too late for him to do anything to help Claire except be moral support.

Edited April 8, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

Thanks Dot... yes, he was more powerful in S6, in general IMO.  But I also think Dot is right that the early stages thing may matter too.

[ahrtee]

35 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Wasn't The Jefferson Starship thing spread like a viral infection? Maybe that's why Cas could heal Dean that time. The others don't spread like a virus. Unless I'm forgetting something, which I probably am. 

I think they said that vampirism (is that a word?) is a virus spread by blood-to-blood contact.  Lycanthropy also can only be spread by bites/scratches, which also sounds suspiciously virus-y.  It looked like the Jefferson Starship virus was airborne (or at least passed through casual contact). 

Hmmm....considering how some particularly nasty viruses are spread, it's probably a good thing Sam had his demon immunity when he slept with Madison!  :)

Edited April 8, 2018 by ahrtee

[FlickChick]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I'm also guessing he's now back to standard-seraphim status (minus the wings).  But that seemed pretty powerful, even back in season 4 (he could bring people back to life, for example!) 

Taking to the Cas thread.