Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[Lisin]

OK, I've moved some posts over to the new News and Media thread. This topic should be about the direction the show is going, what you hope will happen, what you're concerned about. 

[tv echo]

Stephen Amell: "I think that whether or not that was a…he meant it, it was a bait and switch, it was some combination of the two things, we are going to find out very early in Season 3 if he meant it or not. I do think that the one thing that I’m absolutely positive that he meant was, in Episode 6 of Season 2, where he says to her that ‘because of what we do I don’t think that I could be with anybody that I could really care about’, I know that meant that. So, we, we shall see. But that’s going to be a big point to sort of segue-way to Season 3, we’re having some broad strokes discussions about it and what we are finding is that Oliver is in a spot in the flashbacks where all of the humanity that he has is being stripped away. The Oliver that you met in the pilot, that is a murderer, that was a killer, that’s the guy that he’s turning into. He’s losing his humanity. So, Season 3 is very much about how much of his humanity does he want to get back. Does he want to love somebody? ...”

This makes no sense.  In Season 1, when Oliver was the killer vigilante, he was willing to love Laurel again.  In Season 2, he was willing to love Sara.  He loved his mother and Thea throughout. So I think the question of whether he wants to love somebody has already been answered.  The real question is, can he love somebody (in the romantic sense) and be with them without messing it up?

Edited June 8, 2014 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

Or maybe it's about loving someone new? One could argue that Laurel/Sara were falling back on old habits and routines, even McKenna was someone from his past. Helena was new but a kindred soul, someone as effed up and driven by hate/revenge as S1 Oliver.

Wait, do you mean Wesley Wyndham-Price? He was all kinds of awesome on Angel...

I can't find the original quote but based on the one line I'm going with the OP referring to Wesley Crusher from ST:TNG who was notoriously hated by fans but was beloved by Gene Roddenberry and in fact based on a young Gene Roddenberry IIRC.

[abhi]

I think this "can he love someone while also doing his vigilante thing" might relate to his child. Amell had said at comic con that the most important scene for Oliver in Season 2, according to him, was when he receives the news that his son was dead and how it affected him then. And with the big child story line coming up, the big question might be what's the priority for Oliver, doing his vigilante stuff or taking care of his child. And since I believe that the son story line will end in Season 3, I think Oliver will have to put "protecting people" above every other considerations as his destiny, sacrificing himself for the good of the citizens of Starling city.

[Lokiberry]

Felicity's dad could be Ted Kord (possibly played by Mark Pelligrino). Kord Industries buys up Queen Industries, and Felicity works for and gets to know her father. Then, she discovers that he's working on a little something that will help him go out and fight crime. . .

[KirkB]

Maybe it's just me, but unless the show is a family drama/comedy or something of that nature I don't particularly want to see children at least unless the series is about to end because they tend to overwhelm the rest of the stories. Charmed got away with it, barely, because at its heart the show was about family and since the kids had magic and could protect themselves they didn't need as much attention. Now with the potential for two of them...I watch Arrow to see Oliver fighting crime and protecting Starling, not him and Diggle raising their little ones.

[KirkB]

Or maybe he finds (and takes) something she was working on to help Oliver?

[Morrigan2575]

I have to give Charmed credit, they did a really good job (IMO) of introducing kids to the show and actually making them important, I really enjoyed the Chris/Wyatt dystopian future storyline.

However , I think Arrow is making a major mistake introducing Connor Hawk so soon and at such a young age (6 or 7 at most?). I'm guessing the baby/mother will also be used as another roadblock/bump in the road for Olicity or a way to break up/cause angst for Lauiver if the show (oddly) goes in that direction in S3.

But I guess that's going to be a major part of S3, Oliver/baby, Thea/Merlyn, Diggle/baby, Felicity/Daddy or Mom, Laurel/Lance/Sara (probably), not sure about Roy...hopefully they don't knock Thea up to add Roy into this family theme.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[catrox14]

Maybe it's just me, but unless the show is a family drama/comedy or something of that nature I don't particularly want to see children at least unless the series is about to end because they tend to overwhelm the rest of the stories. Charmed got away with it, barely, because at its heart the show was about family and since the kids had magic and could protect themselves they didn't need as much attention. Now with the potential for two of them...I watch Arrow to see Oliver fighting crime and protecting Starling, not him and Diggle raising their little ones.

 

I agree.  The only way this works for me, is that it is some kind of motivation for Oliver that helps him ascend further into THE Green Arrow.  It might have been cute to see Ollie with a baby for about 2 episodes (but I only say that because Amell is so damn cute with this baby daughter). Will we be dealing with a 8 or 9 year old child actor that is going to be tolerable?  I generally don't find child actors compelling but I will give credit to Supernatural for making it work with some fantastic child actors, but I thought that was a pretty rare thing. 

 

I didn't mind Connor in Angel. I thought it worked in that show because Angel was a 200 year old vampire that wasn't even supposed to be able to have a child especially with another vampire so it was a profound, unexpected development and gave some great character work for that 200 year old vampire and what it meant for his life and future. And I actually liked the annoying Connor!

[dtissagirl]

I'd be WAY more interested in the kid and the baby moma if they hadn't killed Moira. But since she won't be around to cause the real conflict, just watching Oliver become an instant daddy and/or try to create an instant family for himself sounds like a total drag.

[statsgirl]

I would be okay if the Connor storyline (we're guessing that's his name, right?) only lasted a brief few episodes to move one or two of the characters forward in development and then the kid went home with his mother to Central City.  It is way too early for Arrow to bring on a Cousin Oliver (Brady Bunch reference).

 

 

In Season 1, when Oliver was the killer vigilante, he was willing to love Laurel again.  In Season 2, he was willing to love Sara.  He loved his mother and Thea throughout. So I think the question of whether he wants to love somebody has already been answered.  The real question is, can he love somebody (in the romantic sense) and be with them without messing it up?

I think it's more about permitting himself to love someone. in Season 1 he pushed Laurel away, telling her he was a bad person to love, until he thought that he could defeat Malcolm Merlyn and have a normal life, and then he went to her.  When he realized that disaster struck in his wake anyway, he decided that because of what he does (being a vigilante) he can't etc. etc.   He loved Moira and because he did, Slade killed her.  He loved Thea and because he did, Slade kidnapped her and later orphaned her while she watched, and left her penniless (so Oliver thinks).  Roy loved Thea but tried to kill her.  It's a pretty self-centred idea, but that's Oliver.

 

So for Oliver, who shut himself off from human contact emotionally in order to survive those five years and "honor his father" by being a vigilante in Starling City,  I think the question will be whether he can let himself open up to a normal life again, either with an SO or a family.  Hopefully Diggle will be there to hold his hand (metaphorically) while he figures it out.

 

I think he's fond of Sara, maybe even loves her as a friend, but I don't think he was in love with her.

 

In terms of the scene where he learns the baby died, now that I've seen the con footage, I think it was significant for SA because of the emotions and possibilities that it brought up in the character of Oliver more than it being about the baby.

 

 

Wesley Crusher from ST:TNG who was notoriously hated by fans but was beloved by Gene Roddenberry and in fact based on a young Gene Roddenberry IIRC.

Based on Gene Wesley Roddenberry. It think Wesley was the original Mary Sue character on TV.

Edited June 8, 2014 by statsgirl

[Zalyn]

Agreed. I'm going to blunt here: I pretty much hate children in tv shows. For example, Kira on Orphan Black annoys me to no end. I know I shouldn't feel this way about little kids but I'm just like please get off my screen. I hope Oliver learns about the child from a distance and the kid isn't actually a major, visual part of the story.

Right there with you, though I refuse to feel bad about it.  I think that babies/young children can make good plot devices; Ron Moore mentioned several times in his BSG commentaries something about his low expectations for how much children can really be involved in the show and minimized their speaking/acting parts where possible (probably better for the child actors too).  In Angel and Nikita, the existence of a child worked well to highlight certain themes or character angles - to emphasize how Angel Investigations is a family, and to raise the question of where a man's responsibility lies - with his son, with his partner, or with his mission.  I see Arrow as being able to work with something similar - how does the perspective of one of our main characters change when they have other responsibilities? 

 

That said, I am a fan of battle couples like Athena and Helo, who were married, raising their child together (when they had her), and still kicked major ass in conflicts, side by side. It's a nice way to show people that life doesn't end when you have kids.  Thank goodness for friends who could watch their child.

 

Older children are really tricky, and I would prefer that a show deliberately devote resources to setting them up effectively in the story - either as fully developed characters or as backstory in absentia.

[Morrigan2575]

Based on Gene Wesley Roddenberry. It think Wesley was the original Mary Sue character on TV.

I don't know if he was the original but he was certainly the first example of a Mary Sue that I remember and is usually held as THE Mary Sue example.

I fear that this show and these prodcuers get so wrapped up in flash that they'll continue to let characters and storylines drop, S2 from 211-217 were kind of a Cluster F*ck of dropped story lines and characters.

I should be happy that the EPs actually seem willing to acknowledge their mistakes but it doesn't mean much if they don't learn from them.

At Phoenix Con SA kind of implied that in Russia when Oliver was with Isabel he may have had his mind on Felicity. It was funny because after Isabel's speech in 222 many fans wondered if Isabel was jealous of Felicity for that very reason. When fans asked MG what Isabel was going to say amd why she hated Felicity his answer was it was just a throw away line, sometimes people just hate other people for no reason. Stuff like that is what worries me, the writers threw it out there without much thought but it was big enough that the fans wondered about it. Hell even SA put some thought into the reason.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Password]

At Phoenix Con SA kind of implied that in Russia when Oliver was with Isabel he may have had his mind on Felicity. It was funny because after Isabel's speech in 222 many fans wondered if Isabel was jealous of Felicity for that very reason. When fans asked MG what Isabel was going to say amd why she hated Felicity his answer was it was just a throw away line, sometimes people just hate other people for no reason. Stuff like that is what worries me, the writers threw it out there without much thought but it was big enough that the fans wondered about it. Hell even SA put some thought into the reason.

 

That's so annoying. It seemed like such a strange line from Isabel because there didn't seem to be enough evidence for her to dislike Felicity to the point of killing her. Going out of her way to kill her even. SA really said that? Ew. That's kind of annoying. Even if it's only an interpretation.

[Zalyn]

That's so annoying. It seemed like such a strange line from Isabel because there didn't seem to be enough evidence for her to dislike Felicity to the point of killing her. Going out of her way to kill her even. SA really said that? Ew. That's kind of annoying. Even if it's only an interpretation.

I think that was MG, no fear:

 

 

When fans asked MG what Isabel was going to say amd why she hated Felicity his answer was it was just a throw away line,

What's upsetting is that they could easily have made the hate more plausible with a line or two. A one-two exchange between Isabel and Felicity with snark and sideeye would have been fine. I know it's hard to plan long arcs on television, but it seems like they can drop a few lines earlier on that develop character that can be drawn upon later on. 

[statsgirl]

Some of the actors seem to put more effort into understanding their characters motivations than the men who write them do, although that is to some amount understandable. It would have been so easy to give Isabel a reason to hate Felicity, maybe because Felicity brought Walter in to save the company, maybe because she supports Oliver who Isabel thought was just a pretty rich boy, maybe because she thought Felicity was a goodie-two-shoes.  It's kind of sad though, that Guggenheim didn't talk with the actors even afterwards to understand who they conceived of their roles.

[calliope1975]

Per http://amuzed1.tumblr.com/post/88187722127/so-i-watched-that-entire-panel-from-the-phoenix-comic:

 

Near the end of it, someone asked about what Isabel was going to say before Felicity hit her with that van (still one of the best parts of the season IMO), and Stephen’s response was really interesting. He said, and I quote, “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, and I feel like when Isabel was with Oliver maybe she sensed that, uh…she didn’t have his full attention.”

 

 

I didn't get that impression at all from watching the show. Again, it seems the actors have to create their own story lines so the show makes sense. Isabel always seemed irritated with Felicity, but I never got the impression that she hated her. But the Isabel Rochev character was completely mishandled, so I don't know that I can put much stock in what SA or MG say. 

[wonderwall]

Isabel always seemed irritated with Felicity, but I never got the impression that she hated her. 

Do you think this is the Mirakuru coming into play? Like it enhanced her feeling of irritation towards Felicity and morphed it into hate? I can only imagine that being the only reason...

[Password]

Per http://amuzed1.tumblr.com/post/88187722127/so-i-watched-that-entire-panel-from-the-phoenix-comic:

 

 

I didn't get that impression at all from watching the show. Again, it seems the actors have to create their own story lines so the show makes sense. Isabel always seemed irritated with Felicity, but I never got the impression that she hated her. But the Isabel Rochev character was completely mishandled, so I don't know that I can put much stock in what SA or MG say. 

 

This seems like a good example of instead of talking about it afterwards, leave it on the screen. If the audience was supposed to see Oliver's mind was somewhere else, show it on the screen. I don't know, Diggle saying to Oliver about sleeping with Isabel "Hiding away from your problems won't solve anything" tv pan to Felicity. Simples. It would even lend credit to the whole "Because of the life that I lead" snot and nonsense.

Edited June 8, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[Zalyn]

Do you think this is the Mirakuru coming into play? Like it enhanced her feeling of irritation towards Felicity and morphed it into hate? I can only imagine that being the only reason...

Oh man, I really hope not, because that would really feel like a "super augmentation makes men into bloodthirsty killers and women into PMS bitches."  (mostly for laughs here, because I have to laugh at how The Passion of the Isabel panned out)

[wonderwall]

Oh man, I really hope not, because that would really feel like a "super augmentation makes men into bloodthirsty killers and women into PMS bitches."  (mostly for laughs here, because I have to laugh at how The Passion of the Isabel panned out)

IDK man, Slade was pretty PMSy too :p

 

I hate that we didn't get to explore the effects of Mirakuru even further... I also hated that Isabel's only reason for hating the Queen family was because of Robert... I wonder what his 'ghost' was like. 

 

In regards to Isabel hating Felicity... I wish we got to see more of Felicity actually being a 'thorn on [isabel's] side'. Maybe Isabel hated Felicity for being the wrench in Isabel's plan? IDK 

[statsgirl]

There were so many reasons for Isabel to hate Felicity .... even if only for being a blonde like Moira, the woman Robert stayed with. It would have been fun for the show to explore. She could also have hated the Queen family because they were born to money and had everything they wanted whereas she had to crawl her way to the top. Or maybe she was interested in Slade but he was so obsessed with Oliver and his family that he had no time for her.  Or she could have hated Felicity because she saw her as a doormat for Oliver and the Queen family rather than ruthless and achieving like herself. Lots of reasons to hate on Oliver, the Queen family and Felicity. It's too bad we never got to know just why.

 

 

He said, and I quote, “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, and I feel like when Isabel was with Oliver maybe she sensed that, uh…she didn’t have his full attention.”

Of course she didn't -- he was thinking about the plan to break Diggle out of the Russian jail.  Sure, she could have interpreted that as Oliver thinking about Felicity but Isabel was anti-Felicity long before that episode.

 

I think Stephen Amell was just reaching for something to answer back rather than it being about Oliver's feelings about Felicity..

Edited June 8, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

Is it bad that I blame a lot of the half baked ideas season 2 had on all the Lance family drama and on the retconning of Laurel? That all just took away so much precious screentime that could've easily been given to Isabel, Felicity, Diggle...

 

I'm just upset and bitter. I just hope that they don't focus on either of those in season 3. Have it be a brief scene, but damn, don't let it take over the show like it did in season 2! 

[Zalyn]

Is it bad that I blame a lot of the half baked ideas season 2 had on all the Lance family drama and on the retconning of Laurel? That all just took away so much precious screentime that could've easily been given to Isabel, Felicity, Diggle...

 

I'm just upset and bitter. I just hope that they don't focus on either of those in season 3. Have it be a brief scene, but damn, don't let it take over the show like it did in season 2! 

 

We should make a drinking game out of Laurel retcons in Season 3.  Actually, that idea has potential... we could practice on S1 and S2 rewatch.

[wonderwall]

I've said this before how I've been on a lot of comment sections... There are a lot of BC fans who want Laurel to have the supersonic canary cry...

 

I actually don't want this. I fear that it would ruin the show in the sense that it's supposed to be quasi realistic. While the Canary cry would be fit for Flash, I don't think it would suit Arrow where people have more natural skills and abilities. 

[statsgirl]

I think she disliked Felicity because Isabel worked her way to the top of the business world and she assumed that Felicity got her new position as EA by sleeping with Oliver. She probably looked down on women who she thought f*cked (btw are we allowed to cuss on here?) their way to the top. 

If anyone slept her way to the top, it was Isabel "Robert Queen was going to leave his family for me" Rochev.  And then she seduced Oliver (not that much effort was involved). 

 

One of the first rules I learned for women in business is never sleep with your boss.  If you fail at your job, you'll get dumped and if you succeed it will be attributed to him.  (That also applies to your advisor if you're a graduate student.)

 

If Isabel had any brains at all, she would have known Felicity didn't to sleep her way to the EA position ten minutes after first working with her.  I hate the stereotype and the writers did Isabel a real disservice for suggesting it unless they were trying for Evil.  Now that the show has done it to tease Oliver/Felicity last season, I hope it gets dropped and never used again.

 

Sara had a mechanical sonic scream. I hope the show doesn't make Felicity produce one for Laurel.

Edited June 9, 2014 by statsgirl

[tv echo]

Thanks to wonderwall for posting the following article link in the Bitterness thread:

 

Catching Up with Arrow Showrunner Marc Guggenheim
by Mark Rozeman - June 8, 2014

http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2014/06/catching-up-with-arrow-showrunner-marc-guggenheim.html

 

I'm bringing it over here because this interview makes me both hopeful and fearful for Season 3.  I'm hopeful because MG says that they're willing to give themselves room to deviate from their original plan (in the context of speaking about Team Arrow):

 

One of the things we always say about the show is that we need to have a plan, but we also need to give ourselves room to deviate from that plan. Part of that deviation is writing towards actors we’re responding to as producers, and writing to their strengths. You have to listen to the rhythms the show is hitting and push it towards what works.

 

I'm fearful because MG still says that "you don’t write what they want, but write what they need" (referring to comic book readers and invoking Stan Lee this time).  Deviating from their plan in minor respects doesn't mean they will deviate from their original overall vision of the show, namely, Laurel as the Black Canary and Oliver's true love.

 

MG's comment that the Oliver/Felicity bait-and-switch was not about throwing shippers a bone makes me hopeful that the EPs don't just engage in fan pandering but are actually trying to tell an organically developing story.

At the end of the day, we’re just trying to tell a compelling story. And that’s hard enough. We’re not trying to service any one group in particular. I’d like to think all our audience members—no matter what pair they’re shipping—they all want a good story. They all want to see a compelling hour of television. That is what we have to do first and foremost…I was watching the Twitter feed during the broadcast. Some people saw the twist coming and others were blindsided. When you have millions of people watching a show, there’s going to be a bunch of smart people watching and they’re going to be able to predict anything you can throw at them. My hope is that we may not surprise you in what we do, but hopefully we’re surprising you in how we do it.

 

I'm still fearful because MG and AK have said a lot of stuff in interviews over the past year that haven't been consistent with what we've seen on the screen.

 

Bottom line: although MG's comments give me hope that Season 3 will continue both Oliver's character development and his relationships on the show (especially his relationship with Felicity) in a natural, organic way, I'm still fearful that the EPs will fall back on comic book canon, regardless of how different the show has evolved.

 

I'm also afraid that they will have Oliver sleep with Amanda Waller in a Season 3 flashback.  I mean, why else would they cast a young and attractive woman as Waller?

 

EDITED TO ADD:  I just noticed that this article link was also posted in the News and Media thread.  I hope it was okay to post it here because I really wanted to discuss MG's comments in the context of my hopes and fears for the future of the show.

Edited June 9, 2014 by tv echo

[KirkB]

I wouldn't have a problem with the Canary having the supersonic cry (as long as it's not Laurel, but that's another point all together). Prior to Flash I would have tried to avoid superpowers, or at the very least kept them on the low end of enhanced strength like Mirakuru gives, but in a world where they are acknowledging people with super speed, weather control and whatever else is going to happen, a bit more metahuman hijinks is to be expected. I don't need 'realism' in my superhero shows. The only problem is, Oliver is just a guy with a bow. From a dramatic standpoint you can't have guys come to Starling who can bench press cars or knock over buildings because there really isn't anything Oliver could do to stop them without calling in Superman or something. Fortunately, DC has a pretty significant number of martial artists and not too overpowered advanced weapons characters they can draw from to send against Oliver.

Edited June 9, 2014 by KirkB

[calliope1975]

I really hate the "you don’t write what they want, but write what they need" quote. It feels very condescending to me, like I'm unable to judge a show or if I don't like a certain aspect, it's because I don't understand. Actually, I don't think I'm explaining how that quote makes me feel all that well, but it really irritates me. He could have made the same point, I think, by saying that the Arrow team has a plan. Based on the audience reception or unexpected things like character chemistry, that plan can be deviated from or organically change, but for the most part, the Arrow team intends to stick to their plan. 

 

I don't know, I've seen too many shows go off the rails because TPTB are unwilling to change their original designs. I think that might have happened the latter half of S2, and I'd hate to see it continue in S3. 

[Starfish35]

I'm a little confused by all these thread topics and conversations jumping from one thread to another - I hope the mods will be patient as I try to figure it out.

From the bitterness thread -

....the Laurel thing. He literally mentioned nothing about her. This makes me hopeful. This really really makes me hopeful. No one has been talking about Laurel (other than KC) which just makes me really happy because no one cares about Laurel's arc right now.

This has actually struck me as odd. It was one of the major things about the season finale, and yet no one that I've heard is talking about it other than Katie Cassidy. Why?

Both AK and MG have talked about making changes depending on what works, yet they still went ahead and wrote that awful jacket passing scene, knowing what everyone would take from it. They still somehow made Katie Cassidy believe she was about to become Black Canary, and allowed her to talk about it as if that's what's about to happen. And yet....no one else is talking about it at all. I'm just getting so many mixed messages. I'd love to hope that Laurel won't actually be BC after all, but I just can't believe they'd allow KC to go out there and talk about it as if it were about to happen if it's really not.

[dtissagirl]

This has actually struck me as odd. It was one of the major things about the season finale, and yet no one that I've heard is talking about it other than Katie Cassidy. Why?

 

I think this might be because no one in the media is asking anything about Laurel in interviews with the producers, and the only actor being asked about Laurel in the con circuit is KC.

[BunsenBurner]

I read this and I believe this would be a good resolution to the jacket handoff in a flashback.

 

 https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10422146/1/He-Needs-You

 

Sorry if this is in the wrong area.

 

[statsgirl]

I read this and I believe this would be a good resolution to the jacket handoff in a flashback.

 

 https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10422146/1/He-Needs-You

 

If this is how MC and AK resolve the jacket scene, I would be one happy viewer.  (I doubt the KC fans would be so much.)

[writersblock51]

 

Near the end of it, someone asked about what Isabel was going to say before Felicity hit her with that van (still one of the best parts of the season IMO), and Stephen’s response was really interesting. He said, and I quote, “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, and I feel like when Isabel was with Oliver maybe she sensed that, uh…she didn’t have his full attention.”

 

Personally, I took SA's comments to mean that he thought of how Isabel perceived things - not necessarily what may or may not have been distracting Oliver at the crucial... ahem... time.  And Isabel's dig about Felicity as she left Oliver's room (with her dress back still unzipped) didn't seem any MORE hostile or condescending than she'd been eariler. 

 

However, even if Oliver was distracted, Isabel's feelings about Felicity go back to the S2 opening episode.  I think she saw Felicity as a pretty play thing without a brain - and she quite possibly resented her for all that the particular stereotype represents.  Also, if Isabel thought Oliver was distracted because he was thinking of Felicity (whether or not he actually was), then that would have been a painful reminder of how Robert Queen viewed her: 2nd class/not his primary focus. 

 

And preMiraku!Isabel was already a motivated person, fueled largely by her hatred of the Queens and a desire to destroy them.  Felicity could have been seen as  a kink in the plan.

 

And now for my bitterness about this: what a waste of a story and characterization of Isabel Rochov.  It's just another example of how this show does not do a consistent job of writing motives.  Slade/Deathstroke and Isabel.  I would hope there's improvement regarding this in S3.

Edited June 13, 2014 by writersblock51

[Sunshine]

There was also a scene where Felicity interrupted Isabel and Oliver because of his plans with Mr. Harper. Felicity wasn't taking no for an answer.   LOL! 

 

I had high hopes when they introduced Isabel.  I thought she was fun.  She just couldn't handle coming in 2nd place to Robert Queen's family or Oliver Queen's extracurricular activities of which Felicity was a part.  She didn't appear too happy about Slade mentioning Shado either.   Anyway, I hope character development in Season 3 is better than Season 2.  What a waste of Isabel and poor Shrapnel.

 

My hope is that if LL becomes birdy (and the EPs have never wavered from that even knowing they were introducing Sara as the 1st incarnation) that they stray from the one true love canon.  My ship...anyone but her.  (I reserve the right to change the anyone part in the future as needed.  I can't even conceive of wanting to change the "but her").   

[BkWurm1]

I think if the writers ever introduce Ted Grant/Wildcat, they would probably go down the love interest route with his character, too considering the nature of this show...

 

At some time in the past I had wished that Laurel could have started out the show with Ted Grant being her trainer, kind of a secondary father figure at the cop gym she'd have been going to with her Dad since she was a little girl (so that Laurel could have had a reasonable foundation to build on if she was to become BC)  Anyway, this post made me realize that if the show ever did bring in Wildcat as her trainer, he likely would also be a love interest which grosses me out since I'm still thinking old guy, lol.

 

I'm of the opinion if Laurel is ever to become BC she needs to get her training from a source that does NOT include Oliver or her sister since that would make BC a sidekick and that IMO does a great disservice to the character of BLack Canary.  I would prefer to keep Sara but IF Laurel is to become Canary, then Ted Grant aka Wildcat was in at least some comic version one of Canary's teachers so I figure perhaps he could be still brought on the show. 

 

So if he was some hot stud trainer (due to the CW influence) then it would also give Laurel a focus and love interest way apart from Oliver, so yay!  I still can't think of WHY Laurel would suddenly take an interest in hard core training.  Maybe as a substitute to her addiction?  Wants a drink and instead hits the gym?  Actually, that's reasonable.  Plus there is the ,hell if my sister can be a bad ass why can't I? motivation  as well as the city going to pot at least once a year.  Move or take more self defense classes - that seems reasonable.   

[statsgirl]

I think wanting to get healthier and keep away from her addictions would be a great reason -- none the least because it's true that exercise endorphins would help her. Or maybe, since she a good-doer, she can take classes and then decide to teach self-defense to other women who need to protect themselves.

 

i hope it's not to compete with Sara though, there's been too much of that in Laurel's life.

[tv echo]

Hope this is in the right thread, but here goes...

 

Like many of you, I'm concerned about the whole sticking-to-comic-book-canon issue with regards to Dinah Laurel Lance.  There are and have been many TV shows that have been based on book series or comic book series that have deviated significantly from their original source material.  One example is The Walking Dead, which is greatly different from the comic book series in terms of living and dead (or non-existing) characters.  Another example is True Blood - the TV series is virtually unrecognizable from the Charlaine Harris books, particularly when it comes to Sookie's love relationships.  Even Smallville deviated significantly from the Superman comic book series with its depictions of Lex Luthor and Lana Lang, although it did stick to the canonical Clark pairings with Lana and then Lois.  Even so, the TV show made it seem like Lana was the love of Clark's life and Lois was second choice.

 

I read that one of the EPs (I forget which one) actually wrote some of the Green Arrow-Black Canary comic books, so I get that maybe he wants to stick to what he wrote - but, c'mon on, the TV series has developed organically on its own.  From what I've heard, the comic book Green Arrow was an unlikeable, womanizing jerk - that's not the kind of hero I want to watch on my TV every week.  The medium of expression also makes a difference.  In a comic book, you're limited to a two-dimensional medium for telling your story.  In a TV show, you have greater scope for telling your story using three-dimensional characters who can convey nuances of speech and facial expression.

 

If the EPs are concerned about alienating Green Arrow comic book readers should the show deviate from "canon", I suspect that the percentage of Arrow's viewers who read the comic books is fairly small and that many of those viewers won't care if Laurel doesn't become the Black Canary.  And, as has already been posted elsewhere, a good argument can be made that comic book canon has already been satisfied because Oliver and Laurel (if she becomes the Canary) have already gotten together and broken up a few times.

Edited June 16, 2014 by tv echo

[writersblock51]

My concerns regarding the show's inconsistent attachment to comic canon is pretty strong.  As has been discussed in length on TWoP, and to some extent here, there is a looooooooooooooong list of things the show has done that is very different from the comics, going all the way back to the pilot episode.  While I like the connection to the comics, I do not think the show would be as successful as it has been so far if it had following the comics verbatim.

 

And that brings up other concerns as well:

 

- which version of Green Arrow's comic book history should be used as a template for the character (and others that are in both the comics and the show)?

 

- with 2 seasons under their belt, how much does the show feel compelled to now stick with the comics?  Or will the plan be to proceed as they have been by taking elements and Arrow-cizing them?

 

With a few exceptions, i think the Arrow-cizing has worked out pretty well.  For example, I much prefered the characters of Moira and Shado on the show than I did in the comics (and I'm not familiar with the New 52 or the Arrow ones, though). Maybe that's why I'm bitter that they're gone now, except in Flashback Mode.

 

 

a good argument can be made that comic book canon has already been satisfied because Oliver and Laurel (if she becomes the Canary) have already gotten together and broken up a few times.

This canon feature was also satisfied by the (ugh) sister swapping thing with Oliver and Sara.  So, Check and Check on the 'Oliver & Canary tumultuous hook up' requirement.  And, in the version where they actually get together, that same version has them ultimately divorced. So, it's not really the classic OTP, in my opinion.  

 

Then again, how many superheroes have Happily Ever Afters?

Edited June 16, 2014 by writersblock51

[Password]

This canon feature was also satisfied by the (ugh) sister swapping thing with Oliver and Sara.  So, Check and Check on the 'Oliver & Canary tumultuous hook up' requirement.  And, in the version where they actually get together, that same version has them ultimately divorced. So, it's not really the classic OTP, in my opinion. 

 

I wouldn't have had a problem with the break up to make up set up if they didn't show that Oliver had clearly changed from those days. It seemed as if he was going in the right direction (bar Isabel) and then all of a sudden BAM! Sara and the distasteful sister swap is back. Oliver got back with Laurel in season 1, then back with Sara in s2, does that mean the end of it? Continuous make up and break up will ruin Oliver's character in my eyes because I don't want to see that from him.

 

Sara saying Oliver needs Laurel just makes me go "Oh here we go again."

[SonofaBiscuit]

I suspect that at the beginning of season 3, we are going to see Laurel kind of in a holding pattern for the first chunk of episodes.  The EPs don't seem to like to commit to any sort of storyline with regards to Laurel, so I don't see her as Black Canary right off the bat.  They seem to love KC, but I honestly believe that they are fearful that Laurel is going to kill their show.  I predict that nothing much will happen with Laurel until after the first batch of episodes air and they begin receiving feedback.  We'll probably just see a lot of training montages.  If the feedback is good, they will continue on the Black Canary path.  If feedback is bad or there is a negative impact to ratings, then I can see them going the Manhunter route and saying that this was their plan all along. 

Edited June 16, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[statsgirl]

Two things that comic books and soap operas have in common is that they need a lot of material to fill their space, and they're open-ended.  Messy personal relationships and back-and-forthing fill those needs.

 

Because Arrow (the TV show) is build on a five year plan (per SA in Denver), my hope is that the EPs have plotted out the five seasons in rough and we don't have to have all the soap opera stuff happening.  If the show goes longer, maybe they can move into different territory. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

I know many have expressed that they don't want an Oliver and Felicity relationship to move too fast, but I'd like to at least see a kiss next season.  And I don't want one of those fake, "we have to pretend we're a couple for reasons" kisses...I want an epic one.  Think Hook/Emma's first kiss or Kate/Sawyer, or Castle and Beckett's first real kiss.  I am not going to sit around for six seasons (fuck you, Bones) and watch Oliver and Felicity stare intently into each other's eyes.  They don't have to get together right away, they can just kiss and decide that for now, they are better off friends and partners.  By the end of season 3, I would like to see something major happen between the two, though (a kiss, Oliver verbally admitting his feelings to Felicity, something!).

[KirkB]

I actually kind of see the opposite. I imagine they will drop us into a fight scene and have Laurel come out punching, then do some flashbacks or a montage of her training, interspersed with the ongoing fight scene.

[Password]

I'm still bitter about Bones. I felt robbed after waiting 6 seasons. I would at the least like Oliver to admit his feelings to Felicity. Too much too soon is bad but slower than slow is worse.

[statsgirl]

Me three, about waiting too long kills what's good about the relationship. I gave up on Bones entirely because all I wanted to do was smack them both upside the head.  I suspect that if ED hadn't got pregnant in real live, Booth and Bones still wouldn't be together.

[Password]

@statsgirl Do you think season 5 was the right time for them to get together? If not, when do you reckon? Because you know if Felicity and Oliver get together, and Laurel is still on the cards (my fears), perhaps 5 seasons is too long. If let's say Arrow only lasts 5 seasons, it would be too much of an Olicity after taste to realistically allow Lauriver to happen. I type these words because I still feel the writers think he belongs with her, regardless of Oliver and Felicity making sense.

[statsgirl]

Arrow may not last the full 5 seasons, or it may get renewed for longer.   All I know is that SA said that the EPs have a five year plan, mirroring Oliver's five years on his various islands.

 

If I could have what I want, I'd like to see them move to get together by the end of season 3, and be together in season 4.  I know that leaves two seasons where they are together and that's a long time for the EPs to avoid putting them in relationship drama which I really hope they don't do, but I thought Castle took one season too long to put them together when they finally did in s5.  I think that the plot contrivances to keep an OTP apart make both characters stupid and ruin them.  And Oliver is not someone to remain celibate for long.

 

If they are going to try out Oliver/Laurel again, let's get it in s3 and over with.  If it can't work now, it won't work in two years either, unless EBR decides to leave the show. 

[icandigit]

My main thing is that I need to see Oliver and Felicity in a relationship for an extended period of time. I don't want the last episode or the last couple of episodes they get together.

[statsgirl]

Like on JAG?  A flip of a coin to see if they get together?  Worst. Ending. Ever. after St. Elsewhere.

 

If they're going to put tease two people together in a relationship, let me see the relationship and what they're like together.  Otherwise I might as well stick to fanfic.