Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[Password]

No he didn't. Oliver spoke to Barry in the second timeline before he spoke to baby mama. He made his decision based on the ultimatum and Barry saying Will should have a father.

[apinknightmare]

But Oliver didn't know that she would put those conditions when he talks with Barry about it.? Or did he?

 

No, he didn't. I didn't mean at that particular time, but maybe before he left Central City after visiting the kid. Since Barry is the only one who knows about the kid, he's the only one Oliver can talk to about it.

[looptab]

Gotcha :)

[quarks]

No, but Barry did tell Oliver that in the original timeline, Felicity found out, and she and Oliver had a huge fight about it.

 

What Barry SHOULD have said was, "Though mostly she was ticked at you because you didn't TALK to her about this, and also, if you DON'T TELL HER, sure, you might get to keep her as a girlfriend, but you're changing the timeline again which is not going to lead to good places, and since Zoom and I are almost certainly going to be running fast enough to change time yet again in my show, THIS IS A BAD IDEA, Oliver," but that would have meant less time watching ancient Egyptian priests in swishy robes make out in not very secret hallways.

[looptab]

I am glad I joined this board especially in moments like this, because without reading all of your thoughtful and snarky and funny answers my reaction to the episode would just be an endless list of bad words I can't even translate in English :)

[Genki]

I'm pretty sure the season will be

 

Propose: 4.09

Break-up: 4.12

2nd Proposal: 4.20 or 4.23

 

I don't know if I can be bothered to put up with that. I disappointed that Oliver lied, and Frankly not sure why...If we hadn't already had S2 B and S3, I could accept more but, now I feel stupid for trusting the writers again.

[kismet]

I don't know if I can be bothered to put up with that. I disappointed that Oliver lied, and Frankly not sure why...If we hadn't already had S2 B and S3, I could accept more but, now I feel stupid for trusting the writers again.

You're not alone. I was raving about being all zen & trusting about the writers at the beginning of the week. I'm still wiping the pie off my face. I'm so mad at them. Trust is a really hard thing to earn back and they had been doing such a good job with it. They have a huge cast... I do not understand why so many melodramatic torpedoes have to be launched at O/F relationship? My hope is that they remember that OQ is the lead of the show for the action sequences and then sorta forget about needing to infuse his personal life with so much drama. Nobody likes the manufactured angst. They really need to watch better TV for inspiration because it's getting a little pathetic how trope & cliche they are getting without any of the pizzazz of other shows.

[tv echo]

I'm not even optimistic that O&F will get back together at the end of this season.  My fear is that S4 will end in a cliffhanger - with Felicity leaving Star City to spend time with her mom (or dad) and not knowing whether she'll return.

Edited December 4, 2015 by tv echo

[theacostov]

I'm positive they will get back together. I'm just wondering if the characters will be recognisable when they get there.

[nksarmi]

I don't even think they are going to break up but if they do, it won't last long.  And I think the characters will be recognizable.  What I don't think will happen is that any of it will be written or executed in a believable manner.  And really I don't even care but what I really don't want to see is Oliver and Felicity working together on Team Arrow with overwhelming coldness after the quippy cuteness of the first few episodes of this season.  I just don't know if I can deal with that level of frosty - not for more than one episode anyway so Oliver better grow some politician genes when Felicity finds out and do some hard core spinning that she can buy into.  OR he better go get himself shot or something to make her feel bad for him lol.

[DeadZeus]

They are forgetting so many things in the flashbacks, learning flawless chinese and russian, joining the bratva, but most importnatly archery. Technically Oliver has only been learning archery at the end of season 1 and some time in season 2. Yet when he leaves the island he has perfect accuracy with a bow, I feel like Oliver is still not in the perfect accuracy state yet :s atleast not after about only a few months of true arcery training. I hope they will do this soon

[ohjoy]

@Dtissagirl, I'm honestly going the "forget everything that happened and fast forward through the fallout and get back to the normal IN CHARACTER Oliver/Felicity scenes" route. This season I'm here for Felicity and Diggle. I'm not going to miss that. 

Me too, me too. Although since I came here before actually watching the episode it's going to be more of a "refuse to acknowledge this episode exists [i'm subbing Flash 2x08 for Arrow 4x08] and fast forward through the fallout" route for me.

 

However, in my mind it would make miles of difference for me if Oliver came clean to Felicity himself, well before she had a chance to find/figure it out from someone else. She could still be angry, she might still break up with him briefly, but man oh man, if Oliver took that bullet in the chest by TELLING HER face to face BECAUSE HE KNOWS IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO (and not just because he's gotten wind of extenuating circumstance that mean she's going to find out elsewhere soon) that would be a huge help in providing some actual growth out of this STUPID, STOOPID storyline.

 

(I'm still annoyed that the writers apparently think they can just sub in Felicity for their previously planned O/L storylines and it'll work the same. They're not the same people -- that's the whole point. If the majority of the audience had wanted to watch those O/L storylines, that's what we would have responded favorably to them in the first place. We didn't because we don't. Stop rewriting characters for your stupid, toxic plot, people. They deserve better than that, and so do we.)

Edited December 4, 2015 by RandomMe

[Password]

If Oliver came clean to Felicity in the next episode I'd completely hand wave episode 8. I'd forget it like yesterdays garbage.

[calliope1975]

Me too, me too. Although since I came here before actually watching the episode it's going to be more of a "refuse to acknowledge this episode exists [i'm subbing Flash 2x08 for Arrow 4x08] and fast forward through the fallout" route for me.

 

However, in my mind it would make miles of difference for me if Oliver came clean to Felicity himself, well before she had a chance to find/figure it out from someone else. She could still be angry, she might still break up with him briefly, but man oh man, if Oliver took that bullet in the chest by TELLING HER face to face BECAUSE HE KNOWS IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO (and not just because he's gotten wind of extenuating circumstance that mean she's going to find out elsewhere soon) that would be a huge help in providing some actual growth out of this STUPID, STOOPID storyline.

 

I skipped a lot of last season which is why Ray and Felicity didn't bother me. I didn't see it so it didn't happen! Unfortunately, I did see this ep. I am willing to forego my bitterness and anger if Oliver comes clean first. I completely agree with you there. Sadly, I don't think that will happen. Hmmmm - here's a question - if he starts to come clean but is interrupted by an accident (spec only) does that count? I don't know.

[bijoux]

Hmmmm - here's a question - if he starts to come clean but is interrupted by an accident (spec only) does that count? I don't know.

 

It depends. How soon does he try to come clean? How long is it between then and the truth coming out?

[ohjoy]

 

Hmmmm - here's a question - if he starts to come clean but is interrupted by an accident (spec only) does that count? I don't know.

 

It depends. How soon does he try to come clean? How long is it between then and the truth coming out?

Does the accident result in a catastrophic event that Barry subsequently erases by turning back time or creating an alternate reality? If so, does he learn his lesson and attempt to come clean sooner than he previously did?

[bijoux]

No more turning back time! Seriously, it's cheap if it's used as a get out of jail free card. It's even worse when they ruin things more like they did with this time jump. Excepting the people surviving part.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm not even optimistic that O&F will get back together at the end of this season.  My fear is that S4 will end in a cliffhanger - with Felicity leaving Star City to spend time with her mom (or dad) and not knowing whether she'll return.

I'd cheer her for doing that.  He took a summer off, she should get to take a summer off.  Plus he deserves the pain of knowing his bullshit lying ways drove her away to the degree that he can't actually even SEE her anymore.

If Oliver came clean to Felicity in the next episode I'd completely hand wave episode 8. I'd forget it like yesterdays garbage.

I wouldn't even have to handwave it, because I'm always fine with people taking some time to process, and if Oliver hadn't flat-out bald-faced LIED to Felicity, she would have been, too.  I said way before the episode that he didn't have to tell her instantly.  So if he tells her next week, doesn't "try" to tell her or think about telling her, but actually tells her, while she's awake and conscious, etc., i.e., no cheatsies, I'll be very happy.  I will also eat my hat.

Hmmmm - here's a question - if he starts to come clean but is interrupted by an accident (spec only) does that count? I don't know.

For me, a genuine effort would count.  Not just a broody/guilty face, but a real "Felicity, I have to tell you something...CRASH."  But then he doesn't get a pass the whole time she's recovering.  He doesn't have to tell her right away, but he can't put it off for months because she's in a wheelchair or whatever.

 

Oh, but the genuine effort doesn't count if it's post-proposal.  Proposing to her, i.e., making her a future stepmother without telling her the child she'd be stepmother to EXISTS, is so, so wrong, and also smacks of more manipulation, in the sense of locking her in more so it's harder for her to leave when she finds out he's a babydaddy and a lying tool.

Edited December 4, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Password]

I won't lie, I feel like him telling her BEFORE he proposes is a stipulation for me too. She needs that sort of information before making a life changing decision. I'd be happy to see where the story goes if that happens.

So if he tells her next week, doesn't "try" to tell her or think about telling her, but actually tells her, while she's awake and conscious, etc., i.e., no cheatsies,

*snort*

I just had a thought. Oliver proposes, she says yes, then he tells her about baby mama. After the ensuing silence he goes "no backsies".

[ohjoy]

I won't lie, I feel like him telling her BEFORE he proposes is a stipulation for me too. She needs that sort of information before making a life changing decision. I'd be happy to see where the story goes if that happens.

*snort*

I just had a thought. Oliver proposes, she says yes, then he tells her about baby mama. After the ensuing silence he goes "no backsies".

To the first part -- YES, I totally want to see that happen.

 

To the second part -- thanks for reminding me of my favorite Laura Hurley joke tweet ever, because I also wanted to see that happen:

 

More joke tweets from Laura Hurley (no spoilers, just speculation)...

Laura Hurley ‏@lah9891  16h16 hours ago

FS:"Why haven't you proposed?"

OQ: "I did. You said yes. Then you bumped your head & forgot."

FS:"..."

OQ:"No take backs."

#laurawritesarrow

 

[ParadoxLost]

No, I don't believe Baby Mama is in the grave. I don't think even these idiots want to deal with a full time child story.

 

I said that once upon a time about Angel.

 

The kid lives in Central city.  Cisco developed metahuman powers belatedly.  I'm just saying more (or as) ill conceived things have been known to happen.

Edited December 5, 2015 by ParadoxLost

[kismet]

I'm somewhere between so angry about the predictable fall out from this lying to thinking about how if they handle it in the next few episodes it will be fine. I don't think I want to press the Panic button just yet. But it's definitely put the parachute on time.

 

But if he

proposes

before telling her the truth, I just won't be able to look at the relationship the same way. It will be forever tainted. I'm now hoping that

proposal was just a stunt for publicity sake.

The episode seems really packed and that clip seemed really to quick for

a proposal.

 

Thank you (sarcasm) show for making me against

the proposal

& angry with OQ. I never thought I would be against either. My hope is that I am just overreacting to it all. My fear is that I am not. I have watched this show for 4 yrs now. The patterns are all there. I know how this is going to go. In my head, I wish I could stop hoping for better. But I just can't. This is a slow-mo crash into a brick wall.

 

EDITED - I meant the show did it for publicity sake, that nothing happens in show. It was simply done by ARROW production for buzz.

Edited December 5, 2015 by kismet

[apinknightmare]

But if he

proposes

before telling her the truth, I just won't be able to look at the relationship the same way. It will be forever tainted. I'm now hoping that

proposal was just a stunt for publicity sake.

The episode seems really packed and that clip seemed really to quick for

a proposal.

 

This is just MHO, but I'd much rather

him propose to her with honest emotion in a spur-of-the-moment, I love you and I'm so glad I didn't lose you kind of thing and have it be driven by real emotion with the lie between them, then for him to do it as a publicity stunt.

That would taint them for me. 

[AyChihuahua]

 

Thank you (sarcasm) show for making me against  

the proposal

& angry with OQ. I never thought I would be against either. My hope is that I am just overreacting to it all. My fear is that I am not. I have watched this show for 4 yrs now. The patterns are all there. I know how this is going to go. In my head, I wish I could stop hoping for better. But I just can't. This is a slow-mo crash into a brick wall.

You're not underreacting.  It's really bad.  And yeah, it's going to get much worse.  

This is just MHO, but I'd much rather

him propose to her with honest emotion in a spur-of-the-moment, I love you and I'm so glad I didn't lose you kind of thing and have it be driven by real emotion with the lie between them, then for him to do it as a publicity stunt.

That would taint them for me. 

I bet that is exactly how it goes.  Then 

the limo crashes when he's trying to tell her. Then she's in the hospital. Then she's in rehab. Then she's in a wheelchair.

 Excuse after excuse not to tell her.

Edited December 5, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[wonderwall]

This is just MHO, but I'd much rather

him propose to her with honest emotion in a spur-of-the-moment, I love you and I'm so glad I didn't lose you kind of thing and have it be driven by real emotion with the lie between them, then for him to do it as a publicity stunt.

That would taint them for me. 

 

I'm guessing after he

proposes, he's going to try to tell her but then she's going to get shot/the car will crash... And then of course he can't tell her while she's recuperating. Then Felicity probably finds out when she gets better

*rolls eyes*

[BkWurm1]

Hmm, let's think of our options:

 

There is the chance that Oliver and Felicity are back together and happy AND stronger and have their great summer.

Or they are together and then Felicity is kidnapped

Or Oliver tries to win her over and she says no and leaves (or he thinks she leaves but actually is kidnapped)  

Or Oliver tries to win her back and she WANTS to say yes but for reason is forced to leave (for someone's own good)

 

There are more options, but I like them even less. 

I said that once upon a time about Angel.

 

The kid lives in Central city.  Cisco developed metahuman powers belatedly.  I'm just saying more (or as) ill conceived things have been known to happen.

 

But Connor on Angel was one of those rapid aging babies.  I doubt they'd do that to WIlliam. 

 

You're not underreacting.  It's really bad.  And yeah, it's going to get much worse.  

  Excuse after excuse not to tell her.

Stalling just long enough for her to find out from a different source and BOOM goes the delayed bomb dropped in 4-08.

[kismet]

This is just MHO, but I'd much rather

him propose to her with honest emotion in a spur-of-the-moment, I love you and I'm so glad I didn't lose you kind of thing and have it be driven by real emotion with the lie between them, then for him to do it as a publicity stunt.

That would taint them for me. 

I mistyped I meant ARROW production did it for publicity sake. That it's a production stunt. Nothing happens in show. I definitely want an emotional

proposal based

on love & commitment not publicity.

Edited December 5, 2015 by kismet

[Genki]

I was thinking about which scenario was worse, Timeline 1 where there was an outright lie to Felicity's face or Timeline 2 where Oliver evades/compartmentalises the issue and omits the truth?

 

I'm torn because I would prefer timeline 1 fight to be hashed out & resolved, obviously resulting in a stronger Olicity, but Timeline 2 side-steps the situation leading to the lie and the emergence of Felicity's hurt over Oliver's continued lying ways & gives Oliver a bit more time to process and do the right thing. (I'm not sure he will but I truly hope that he does.)

 

Unfortunately I don't think the writers see the issue as big as the Fandom do. Especially since, as vigilantes they justify lying constantly (along with Law breaking, and violence). Flash is very tolerant of it looking at Joe (and Joe and Barry) getting passes for lying to Iris so many times, and Iris is now concealing her sibling form Joe. Barry does't seem conflicted with lying to Patty, and even on Arrow Laurel never gets called out on her lying liars ways, even if it leads to people being assaulted and murdered and Sara's soul/conscience enduring more damage. 

 

To buy into these characters and their world we have to buy-in that lying is justified, but Oliver crossed a line because we don't expect him to do this to Felicity without extreme circumstances, which were NOT shown in 4.08. I think, for me, Oliver needs to want to desperately tell the Felicity the truth and while I know he does want to, to some extant, I'm still not sure why he's not doing so, so it's such a WTF?!!?! moment. There is not enough in-story reason, for me, for Oliver to be hiding this from Felicity currently.

 

I think I'm getting to a place where I won't crucify Oliver even if he proposes without telling Felicity, but I'm not enjoying this abrupt let-down from the Olicity feels I was having this week & earlier this season.

 

One of the reasons I'm working towards "not a deal breaker" for my enjoying Oliver as a character is, while the writers don't seem to see concealing William from Flelicity as that big of a deal, we know that Oliver will face the repercussions of this BM enforced stupidity. He always does and frankly this is what puts me off the most of this whole SL, the OOC/Pod behaviour for DRAMA, I've already suffered through that!!!!

 

What Oliver did is wrong, however he has time to make it right IMO, but hopefully there can be some character growth and great acting rather than "Gotch-Ya!" and Dramatic Denouncements, but looking at this team's writing record, I'm not so sure. *sigh*

Edited December 5, 2015 by Genki

[AyChihuahua]

I was thinking about which scenario was worse, Timeline 1 where there was an outright lie to Felicity's face or Timeline 2 where Oliver evades/compartmentalises the issue and omits the truth?

He also lied to her face in Timeline 2 when he said it was nothing (LIE) and it is over (LIE, he's already told the kid he'll be dropping by more).  

[kismet]

Well the situation was over in his mind because it was handled. And it doesn't matter because the situation is resolved in his mind for now. It's still not technically lying. But it is keeping major stuff from FS, which is problematic & wrong. Its deception but its not lies.

Honestly though I don't feel like getting into a discussion over it. Because its a very grey area and the writing is crap so people can see what they want to see in his words. And at the end of day what he did was shitty to FS no matter how you describe it.

[AyChihuahua]

Well the situation was over in his mind because it was handled. And it doesn't matter because the situation is resolved in his mind for now. It's still not technically lying. But it is keeping major stuff from FS, which is problematic & wrong. Its deception but its not lies.

Honestly though I don't feel like getting into a discussion over it. Because its a very grey area and the writing is crap so people can see what they want to see in his words. And at the end of day what he did was shitty to FS no matter how you describe it.

He said it was over and it didn't matter.  Is it over when he goes to visit the kid?  And how does him having a son not matter?

Edited December 6, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[kismet]

He said it was over and it didn't matter.  Is it over when he goes to visit the kid?  And how does him having a son not matter?

Him having a son matters. But him telling that to FS in that moment does not matter. Not while he is trying to balance keeping his life together and BM is demanding and the situation is delicate. What matters is everyone is home safely & alive, he still has the opportunity to tell FS in the future and he can't betray BMs trust with out bringing more drama and attention to a boy he has only begun to get to know. The truth can be revealed at a later date. The situation is handled (over) as of now. What was distracting him in CC is no longer distracting him at the present because he has resolved it to the best of his ability for the time. So what matters about the situation has been handled. And if you read his statement as that, it is not a lie. However, I'm not expecting everyone to have the same interpretation.

 

The more I have thought about the situation, I am not sure if in a similar situation I would have revealed the truth immediately either, now that I have had more time to think about it. I would want to tell FS, but I have dealt with enough people like BM to know that if you cross them it only makes matters worse. If I was thinking about the welfare of the child, I would have probably kept the matter from FS in that moment. Not because I don't trust her, but because if I betray the word I gave to BM, I know that the situation would only get worse. And if I loved someone and believed they loved me, I would hope that they would be understanding of my need to handle the situation delicately. And that is was not done out of lack of trust, but rather the situational powers at play. Not forever, but certainly until I was able to get BM to be more receptive to the notion. Or at least have a full night to process what it all means to have a secret newly discovered child & a deceitful BM ~ and all that means in the grand scheme of life (GA & normal) as well as what it means for the mayoral campaign & DD.

Edited December 6, 2015 by kismet

[GirlvsTV]

I really have no hope of this mess being sorted properly by these writers. The underlying thought process that brought us this storyline is the exact same process that gave us the total mess of season 3. I was hopeful they had learned their lesson, but now I just wonder that if it hadn't been for the need to spend time setting up LOT we might have been mired in this crap storyline even earlier in the season.

What I took away from that episode was that Oliver chose to lie to Felicity's face TWICE. It's great that everyone is putting forth some possible reasons why he did that, but IMO the actual writing in the episode did not provide a good enough motivation for him to behave that way and it felt completely OOC for the Oliver we've seen throughout this season to lie to Felicity.

I haven't been able to even watch the preview for the next episode, although I've seen GIFs pop up on Twitter. I just can't get interested in Oliver/Felicity stuff because all I can see when they are together right now is The Lie. It might be salvageable for me if he comes clean in the next episode but I really doubt that will happen, which means he's going to keep lying to Felicity which is so awful that I'm pretty sour on their whole relationship at this point.

And since TV Law dictates that Oliver and Felicity are probably headed for an angst-ridden break up in a few eps, I'm afraid the back half of this season is going to suck. This show does not work when those two are at odds and I can't imagine sitting through another stretch of episodes where that is case. NuTeam Arrow chemistry is like in the negatives for me, so I'm not really feeling much interest in continuing to watch. And that is insane because this time a week ago it was still my favorite show!

Is there an award for writers who have the ability to f*ck up a half a season's worth of character development in the span of one episode (or really about 5 mins of one episode)?

Edited December 6, 2015 by GirlvsTV

[Genki]

Is there an award for writers who have the ability to f*ck up a half a season's worth of character development in the span of one episode (or really about 5 mins of one episode)?

 

Yep it's called the Bay-Thomas award for stupidity.

[Genki]

From Episode thread:

 

 

I guess while I'm speculating wildly, I'll say I did also pause to consider the possibility that the grave at the beginning of the season belonged to the kid. Wasn't Barry the only one there with Oliver?

 

 

Killing off a Kid is a usually something most shows shy away from, but Arrow did kill Akio in S3 and the kid id not Conner Hawke. 

I'm still wondering if Conner will turn out to be Oliver's grandson on LOT, so that may give an indication to the possibility of William in the Grave.

[kismet]

I feel like they won't kill the kid. It's a solution to having a child on set all the time. But the scenario they set up with BM is perfect now to keep the kid in canon and offscreen. Personally, beyond the stalling of O/F I feel like the child is brought on to provide an extension of the story into future seasons. I feel like they wanted to do Connor but got denied by DC Comics. So there is no upside in killing the child now because they’ve only been able to use him for one portion of the story. Akio was always going to be expendable in the story because he has no connection to the present. Also with Maseo in the LoA & Tatsu in hibernation, it was clear that bad things happened to Akio.

 

That all being said, I don’t think the show will shy away from killing William if they feel it is best for the story. I just think there are more stories to tell with William that could be profitable if the show moves beyond s5 or s6. The show likes to be ballsy, so it might happen. I just wonder if they will be hesitant to cut down a future generation of TA, when he really can be a not present presence on the show. BM though I think is more a possibility over William because she has served her purpose to the storyline in many ways.

 

But in the end, I just don’t think the show has any intention at present to kill either BM or William.  However, with the horrible reception of the BM & pursuant drama by critics and fans alike, I do wonder if they might change their mind and put one of them in the ground. Then again, fan & critic reception has never changed their plans before. But they have been building to this death for a while, so if they keep to their original plan I think it will be one of the Lances. However, I do not put it past them to change their minds and make the death either not stick or be some inconsequential "significant" character that the audience does not care about in the long term like Campaign Manager.

Edited December 6, 2015 by kismet

[tv echo]

IIRC, the EPs originally conceived Arrow as a superhero show grounded in reality.  But with the success of The Flash, they dropped that concept and decided to go all in with the comic book elements of superpowers, time travel, magic and mysticism.  Yet they're still trying (or so they say) to depict 'realistic' relationships - with all their expected ups and downs and pitfalls - I guess, as a way to ground the more fantastical elements of the show.

 

If they could depict a romantic relationship organically and true to the characters (that is, something that flows naturally from the established characters and previous story developments on the show), then that would be great.  Unfortunately, the EPs' version of a 'realistic' relationship appears to be one that is prone to the usual TV relationship tropes - the same kinds of things that you can watch on any number of nighttime TV dramas - in other words, manufactured drama for the sake of drama or contrived plot devices.

 

So now I say, forget trying to depict a so-called 'realistic' relationship and go all in with fantasy.  By 'fantasy', I mean the epic love stories with noble characters in fantasy series where the main couple's love and commitment to each other remain constant, even as they battle various enemies and undergo trials & tribulations, whether together or individually, before finally triumphing over evil in the end.  Examples: Richard & Kahlan (Sword of Truth/LotS), Jamie & Clare (Outlander), Aragorn & Arwen (LoTR), John & Aeryn (Farscape), Morgon & Raederle (Riddle of Stars), etc.

 

So, Arrow EPs, forget realism and forget a 5-year character evolution for Oliver.  Make him noble and good now (you certainly haven't evolved any of the other insta-superheroes over several years).  And give me the epic love story with characters that I can root for.  Keep Oliver & Felicity a solid couple.  Give them obstacles but have them overcome them. Give me the fantasy and I'll watch forever.

 

...  At least, that's how I feel right now - because anything is better than that manufactured Baby Mama dreck of 408.

Edited December 6, 2015 by tv echo

[way2interested]

So, Arrow EPs, forget realism and forget a 5-year character evolution for Oliver.  Make him noble and good now (you certainly haven't evolved any of the other insta-superheroes over several years).  And give me the epic love story with characters that I can root for.  Keep Oliver & Felicity a solid couple.  Give them obstacles but have them overcome them. Give me the fantasy and I'll watch forever.

 

...  At least, that's how I feel right now - because anything is better than that manufactured Baby Mama dreck of 408.

 

The thing is, up until 408, that is kind of what the writers were already doing. Oliver was the noble and ultimate good that was being matched against everyone else's decisions. There wasn't even really a question if he was going to go down that dark road again, he wasn't. 407 even addressed that, solidifying Oliver as a hero who would fight for the light. Oliver and Felicity's relationship was the epic love story. They remained together and drama-less for almost the entirety of 4a. Even in 406, the fight ended in a "love conquers all" way and they came out of it even stronger.

 

That's why, despite 408 and the consequential plot line, I still have hope as to where this story is going. The writers got into a good groove for writing the story throughout 4a, I'd imagine it would be harder for them to throw it entirely away compared to throwing out 20 minutes of happiness from the beginning of s3 to change the storyline again. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by way2interested

[BkWurm1]

I keep telling myself the writers promised since before the season started they were going to through everything at Oliver and Felicity and see how they react.  That can't really keep throwing stuff if they stop being "Oliver and Felicity" so as backward as the reasoning may be, I guess they have to keep them kind of together so they can keep torturing them (read us). 

 

I also recall that the season is broken up in their minds into thirds.  So first third was pretty good Olicity.  Next third I expect the implosion.  Hopefully that means the last third is for rebuilding. 

[kismet]

Noooooo! Castle ruined that scenario for me. Mostly because the second wedding was so sucky.

Sorry!! I abhorred all the wedding shenanigans in Castle. But I think @lemotomato was onto something with O/F's firsts all be tainted. It probably goes back to TPTB s knuckleheaded insistence that OQ must have a star-crossed relationship. Its such malarkey and goes against the strengths of the actors and the couple, but the show keeps on insisting we ruin them at the first opportunity in the most cliche pedestrian way. It's almost more than stalling, it's willful arrogance that they will get the story they promised years ago, even if its no longer relevant or logical.

Also not sure if it was here or on Twitter/tumblr, but someone said this potential storyline blowing up in OQs face is a way to get a new engagement ring. I do wonder if the writers will seize the opportunity to do that since this BM reveal will probably be used to look badly upon MQ. Personally I thought it was a sweet emotional gesture to use MQs ring - but I wonder if the numbers skew the other way. Not saying it's why they are handling it this way but it's another on their bulletpoint list of pros to the story.

Edited December 8, 2015 by kismet

[lemotomato]

I like the spec that Felicity will propose the second time around, whenever that happens. Oliver has pretty much always called the shots in their relationship (Let's date! No, we can't date. Ok, I'm ready to date again!). If he proposes to her before telling her about his son and it blows up in his face, it would only be fitting for her to decide if and when they should get married.

[statsgirl]

Felicity was the one to prompt the sex in 3x20. I bet the EPs will think it's so clever to have her propose to him just when he thinks he's lost her forever.

[lexicon]

I keep telling myself the writers promised since before the season started they were going to through everything at Oliver and Felicity and see how they react.  That can't really keep throwing stuff if they stop being "Oliver and Felicity" so as backward as the reasoning may be, I guess they have to keep them kind of together so they can keep torturing them (read us). 

 

I also recall that the season is broken up in their minds into thirds.  So first third was pretty good Olicity.  Next third I expect the implosion.  Hopefully that means the last third is for rebuilding. 

 

You know I'd be okay with that. My problem is I have doubts as to how much of the third part of the season will actually be devoted to rebuilding Olicity. The last part of the season is usually where the shit hits the fan and all the action starts kicking in re: the big bad, so the focus is usually rightfully on that. That leaves me concerned as to how much time and ergo how successfully they'll be able to rebuild Olicity during that period. I hope it's not like last season where all in the course of one ep, Felicity and Ray were over, she was declaring her love to Oliver and they were finally ready to get it on. Then nothing for a few eps until the end where the big bad was defeated and they were ready to run off together, all without so much as a conversation that delved into all the issues between them. If that is the route they go this season, I will be one unhappy viewer.  

[kismet]

You know I'd be okay with that. My problem is I have doubts as to how much of the third part of the season will actually be devoted to rebuilding Olicity. The last part of the season is usually where the shit hits the fan and all the action starts kicking in re: the big bad, so the focus is usually rightfully on that. That leaves me concerned as to how much time and ergo how successfully they'll be able to rebuild Olicity during that period. I hope it's not like last season where all in the course of one ep, Felicity and Ray were over, she was declaring her love to Oliver and they were finally ready to get it on. Then nothing for a few eps until the end where the big bad was defeated and they were ready to run off together, all without so much as a conversation that delved into all the issues between them. If that is the route they go this season, I will be one unhappy viewer.  

And this is why I am afraid of the writers having FS proposing to OQ. Because the writers will throw it in some random episode, nothing will have been resolved. There will still be a plethora of issues they have to work out between them. But we are all supposed to be over the moon that Olicity is engaged. When really I just want it to be a healthy, happy, honest relationship not a quickie Hallmark Channel fix to their relationship.

 

However, I am willing and ready for the writers to surprise me in how they handle this Secrets & Lies  - Olicity edition. In fact, I challenge them to write it in an authentic and genuine way that respects the relationship and the characters'. And I want both characters to have a viewpoint & agency in the story. If they succeed then we can talk about who should propose a second time.

[way2interested]

At least, despite all of this writing, I can look forward to SA's and EBR's performances in the midst of the drama. Even if I was rolling my eyes with all of consequential drama that was going to come from 408, I still enjoyed watching the scene with Olicity's fight from an acting standpoint, and I thought that scene with Oliver and his son was really cute. Even if Oliver and Felicity don't evenly receive viewpoints for this plot line, I know that SA and EBR will give some interpretations that will give some weight to the drama. That's what got me through some times in s3, so I know it will probably come through for me in s4. 

[kismet]

Because I had deja vu on the drive to work tonight... it inspired me to think about LLs deja vu hint in the end of 408.

I really think they want to kill LL but know they can't cuz comics. So what if they kill her anyway but then have BA or LoT reset the present during the spring and undo the death. I really don't trust the writers to have the death stick. And LLs throw away a line maybe the key to it all. Nobody else felt it because nobody else was seismically changed by the need to reset the time/space continuum. Perhaps her death/rebirth is somehow related to Vandal Savages plot on LoT which is why KC thinks she is going to be on it.

Its not an original speculation that they will undo or reset time. But let's just say the deja vu made me think they just might take the cheap way out of this story line. It's become a fear that they may tv trope reset everything due to speedforce. And perhaps them not knowing how to use a vacuum.

Edited December 10, 2015 by kismet

[Starfish35]

Since hiatus is here, I'm going to throw out my speculation about who's in the grave. It's not terribly original. I'm just kind of writing out my thoughts here.

I remain convinced that it will be a main cast member. I don't think it will be Samantha or William, or Roy, or Lyla, or Donna, or even Alex.

I don't think it will be Samantha because that would leave Oliver with a child to raise, and I don't think they will go there, and I don't think they'd have Oliver send the child off after killing off his mother.

I don't think it will be William, because Oliver absolutely would blame himself for that.

I don't think it will be Roy because

I think Roy's only coming back for one episode (412), and the timing's not right.

I don't think it will be Lyla because that would make Diggle a single dad. Possible, but I think it's easier for them to have Lyla and baby Sara mostly offscreen, whereas if Lyla died, it seems like they'd have to devote more storytime to Diggle trying to figure out how to take care of Sara on his own. (I'm not sure I'm totally convinced by my own reasoning here, but whatever.)

Donna - I think Oliver would blame himself for Donna, but also, I don't think the show is going to be eager to kill Donna off anytime soon. They know she's popular, and she's not a regular so they don't have to come up with regular storylines for her. She can just pop in and out whenever they need her.

Alex - eh, maybe, but I can't see Barry coming for the funeral of Oliver's campaign manager. Same for Paul, Curtis's husband.

Curtis - possible, but has yet to even join the team or become Mr. Terrific. I don't think it's him.

Which brings us to our regulars.

Felicity is off the table. They're not going to go there.

Thea - there is still the bloodlust issue hanging out there, but it would feel repetitive after last year, and I don't think they're going to kill off the last of Oliver's family.

Malcolm - well, I'm still hoping Nyssa gets her revenge at some point, but I doubt Oliver would be shedding any tears about it. Also, I think the writers are too in love with JB.

That leaves Quentin, Diggle, and Laurel.

I still think Quentin is the most likely, but he's also the most expected, and they've got to know that in spite of all the trying to convince us it will be Felicity. If they're wanting to shock people, it won't be Quentin.

Which leaves Diggle and Laurel.

Laurel would be a shock just because it's assumed (even by me) that her status as BC makes her bulletproof, even though plot wise she's easily the most dispensible.

Diggle - if they wanted to strike a blow to the heart of TA, without it being Felicity, than that leaves Diggle, Oliver's brother-in-arms. It would probably be the most devastating blow they could strike other than killing Felicity. I don't think they will go there? But I can see the argument that they might.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Starfish35

[BkWurm1]

I don't think it will be Lyla because that would make Diggle a single dad. Possible, but I think it's easier for them to have Lyla and baby Sara mostly offscreen, whereas if Lyla died, it seems like they'd have to devote more storytime to Diggle trying to figure out how to take care of Sara on his own. (I'm not sure I'm totally convinced by my own reasoning here, but whatever.)

 

I'd HATE if it were Lyla but I can't take her off the list completely just because we had that line that Diggle dropped saying he was worried about Sara growing up in Star City.  If Lyla died, then it would be a logical cliff hanger to have Diggle and Sara say they are moving away at the end of the season. We still get the angst of losing Diggle, but we can get him back in the new season (Found family trumping safer location)

 

It still is most likely Quentin but after the brief glorious glimpse of SmoaknLance, I would weep even harder at his loss.  (Which is likely why they did it.  Insert sad face)

 

Laurel dying would shock me to my toes but make me so happy to have all my favs still alive.  It's not even that I care if she lives or dies at this point, but if she died, then everyone else gets to live.  That is where my heart lies.   Could Arrow ever be THAT good to me?  Hard to fathom. 

Edited December 10, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Starfish35]

Yeah I'm not 100% convinced about Lyla. Nor about Thea, if I'm to be honest. I don't think they will go there? But Thea is definitely on DD's radar now, and there was that line from Malcolm about what he would do to Oliver if something happened to Thea. That makes me wonder a little bit, even though I don't really think they would kill Oliver's sister again.

[Angel12d]

I can't even bear to think of it being Diggle. My brain just refuses to compute. And also, as sexist as it sounds, I can't see this show having Team Arrow consist of Oliver and three women.

 

I'd love to believe it's Laurel because I feel like she's kind of out of place on the show (and even though she worked well in 409, it was mainly because Thea, Diggle and Felicity weren't there and removing 3 main characters to ensure one works is kind of problematic, IMO) but again, she's the Black Canary and I don't believe this show has the guts to kill her.

 

I still think it's Quentin though I wouldn't mind if it's Oliver's kid. Sorry not sorry but I cannot stand kids on the show and I never will.