legaleagle53 October 19, 2015 Share October 19, 2015 Here's the "official" explanation from the writer of the episode: https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA All clear now? Link to comment
Mari October 19, 2015 Share October 19, 2015 Here's the "official" explanation from the writer of the episode: https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA All clear now? Snicker. The tweet's disappeared. What did it say? Link to comment
legaleagle53 October 19, 2015 Share October 19, 2015 It was a written-out timeline showing that the five-year timespan is correct, only the 28-year curse occurred in the middle of it and affected Camelot as well as Storybrooke and the Enchanted Forest. In other words, all three realms were frozen because of the curse. 1 Link to comment
MaiLuna October 19, 2015 Share October 19, 2015 (edited) Snicker. The tweet's disappeared. What did it say? It's not gone. Here it is I don't know why they couldn't have just said "3 years before the curse" and make it easier. Also, I don't get why people are so confused about all the realms. To me, it's obvious that the Enchanted Forest, Camelot and Arandelle; and Agrabah, Sherwood Forest are all in the same realm/"world" just like in this world we have different countries and continents. Edited October 19, 2015 by MaiLuna 2 Link to comment
Amerilla October 19, 2015 Share October 19, 2015 (edited) Also, I don't get why people are so confused about all the realms. To me, it's obvious that the Enchanted Forest, Camelot and Arandelle; and Agrabah, Sherwood Forest are all in the same realm/"world" just like in this world we have different countries and continents. It's not all that confusing, just poorly explained within the show itself. For example, just because it's raining on the East Coast of North America, that does not mean its also raining in Western Africa, South Australia and Northern Europe at the same exact time. It's things like this that just make it so painfully obvious that they don't think these things through or care much about the worldbuilding aspect of having so many realms and so many characters shoved together, and it's created a semi-indigestible wad of story for the audience to swallow. Edited October 19, 2015 by Amerilla 3 Link to comment
Camera One October 19, 2015 Share October 19, 2015 If you can walk to Camelot from the Enchanted Forest, why didn't Arthur come to the Enchanted Forest those "many years" to seek out Rumple? Why would Snow buy that sword Charming planted was really Excalibur? 3 Link to comment
KingOfHearts October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Camelot seems to be like Arendelle in that it was supposedly only a day's trip away, but the EF events rarely affected it. Maybe Arthur minimized visitors to keep his secret? I found it funny that Rumple never called Merlin by name until 5x04. It was always, "The Sorcerer". About the timeline. It sort of works, but I still don't like it. There's two methods of recalling historic dates now. It's not consistent with what it's done before. Link to comment
YaddaYadda October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 The timeline got me wondering if Camelot even knew there was a curse. Considering everything, this means that Arthur and Co found out about the Savior prophecy something like 43 years ago. Unless we are counting those "5" years in the decade mentioned in 5x02. Maybe Arthur minimized visitors to keep his secret? Broken Excalibur didn't seem to be a secret for the knights of the round table though. That oath must be something else since nobody seems to have blabbed about it. Link to comment
KingOfHearts October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Well the Knights were there at Excalibur's release, so Arthur couldn't keep it from them. Rumple knew about it. However, the brokenness can't seem to be that well known because Snowing thought a full sword could have been it in 3x02, and Arthur told Charming about it as a secret among the Knights. In the flashback, Arthur was careful to make sure none of the peasants saw the part that was broken. He hid it with the leather case. (Not sure what you call that.) Link to comment
kili October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 He hid it with the leather case. (Not sure what you call that.) scabbard? Well the Knights were there at Excalibur's release, so Arthur couldn't keep it from them. Who was with him? Percival (who is now dead) and Lancelot (who spent decades absent from Camelot)? I'm now suspicious. Link to comment
YaddaYadda October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Well the Knights were there at Excalibur's release, so Arthur couldn't keep it from them. Not talking about Percival and Lancelot though. Arthur brought David in and showed him the sword, telling him this was Camelot's secret (or something) and that the knights of the round table knew about it. So either he's lying because he knows something is up with these people (he also knows they're supposed to destroy the darkness, he said so in 5x01) or he has been honest about it with the knights of the RT. Link to comment
Camera One October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Who was with him? Percival (who is now dead) and Lancelot (who spent decades absent from Camelot)? I'm now suspicious. This makes no sense, and an unnecessary deviation from the original tales. The point of the Sword in the Stone was that the populace saw Arthur pulling the sword from the stone. Why would anyone believe him if he just flashed part of the sword on his horse from a distance? Link to comment
kili October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 (edited) Why would anyone believe him if he just flashed part of the sword on his horse from a distance? That's the story they are going with. The average Camelotian doesn't know that the sword is not whole and Arthur is desperately trying to keep it that way. He told David that all the Knights of the Round Table know about the broken sword, but he has also been shown lying to the Storybrookers. I wonder if all his knights have been sanded. I'm thinking that Arthur was not as surprised as he let on that Percival tried to kill Regina. Arthur has worked to sabotage "The Savoir" (preventing them from talking to Merlin). So, he may want Regina dead and just told Percival some story. IIRC, Percival never said he was the boy, just that there was a boy. Perhaps Arthur told him the story (conveniently, he is an orphan) and the Sand might have helped the believability. If David is still Sanded, why does Arthur trick him in Storybrooke (about the box and Grif's guilt). Does Arthur not know he has Sanded David or did David break the curse? Did somebody take the memories to hide the fact that the Sanding spell had been broken or to hide the memory that they are Sanded? I can't decide whether there are plot holes enough to rival those in Blackburn, Lancashire or everything is going to be wrapped in a pretty bow by the end of this arc. Edited October 20, 2015 by kili Link to comment
Mari October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I wonder if all his knights have been sanded. I'm thinking that Arthur was not as surprised as he let on that Percival tried to kill Regina. That would explain the one guy's creepy cultish willingness to commit suicide in the Storybrooke jail. Link to comment
Rumsy4 October 21, 2015 Share October 21, 2015 If David is still Sanded, why does Arthur trick him in Storybrooke (about the box and Grif's guilt). Does Arthur not know he has Sanded David or did David break the curse? Did somebody take the memories to hide the fact that the Sanding spell had been broken or to hide the memory that they are Sanded? None of them have their memories of the six weeks. So why would Arthur assume had has magic-sanded Charming? Guin still seems brainwashed in Storybrooke. So maybe Snowing are not under the spell anymore. Link to comment
KingOfHearts October 21, 2015 Share October 21, 2015 (edited) None of them have their memories of the six weeks. That's what the writers want you to think! ;) I wonder if all his knights have been sanded. He sanded his whole kingdom, so I suppose so. That doesn't explain why Lancelot wasn't, however... The sand is dangerously close to breaking the law of magic that says you can't make someone love you. I know the answer is probably that it only makes you think you love someone, like they did in S2, but there doesn't seem to be much of a difference to me. Edited October 21, 2015 by KingOfHearts Link to comment
kili October 21, 2015 Share October 21, 2015 He sanded his whole kingdom, so I suppose so. That doesn't explain why Lancelot wasn't, however... Lancelot left before the Great Sanding Event of Five Years Ago. Gwen says goodbye to him and he heads for the EF. Arthur sees the goodbye and assumes. Gwen comes in to "fix" the sword, thinks better of it and confesses all to Arthur. Arthur sands her and then sands up a castle. Lancelot stays away many years and returns secretly. Arthur thinks he is a cheating cheater who cheats, so he throws him in the cell where all the rats like to go instead of sanding him. Why Merida isn't sanded, we aren't told. Maybe Arthur is getting low on sand and he doesn't need her for anything. So, she gets put in the second worst cell. The sand is dangerously close to breaking the law of magic that says you can't make someone love you. They broke that law when they had Robin in love with Zelena. Link to comment
KAOS Agent October 21, 2015 Share October 21, 2015 I'm kind of wondering how if Camelot is only a day's ride from everywhere else, why doesn't anyone from these other places question how the hell this giant castle appeared overnight in place of that crappy village? 1 Link to comment
Mathius October 21, 2015 Share October 21, 2015 (edited) The sand is dangerously close to breaking the law of magic that says you can't make someone love you. 3 out of 4 of those laws have been broken already (magic can't change the past unless you're Zelena with her time-travel spell, magic can't make someone fall in love with you unless you're Issac with his magic pen, magic can't raise the dead unless it's Maleficent being raised.) At this point, the only one left is that magical servants like genies cannot use their magic to kill, and frankly I suspect that they'd have Jafar do away with that rule if he ever turned up on this show. Edited October 21, 2015 by Mathius 2 Link to comment
LizaD October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 (edited) I can hand wave the sand thing. Did G ever say she fell out of love with Arthur? If she still loves him then the sand could have just removed the problems they had with the fix what was broken thing. So it didn't conjure love out of nowhere. Not that the sand makes any sense anyway. How did it control Snowing? They never trusted the guy in the first place, not completely. So I don't see what it "fixed." Maybe we shouldn't complain too much. It might make A&E think that the sand is the biggest problem of S5 like how they said their biggest mistake of S2 was letting Tamara use a taser on wood August. Edited October 22, 2015 by LizaD 1 Link to comment
YaddaYadda October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 I can hand wave the sand thing. Did G ever say she fell out of love with Arthur? That's what I wondered myself, because it seemed Arthur just jumped to conclusions and then didn't give her a chance to explain what she meant by following her heart. She seemed like she was going to protest the things he was saying when he sanded her. 1 Link to comment
scarynikki12 October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 I think her feelings had lessened, hence giving in and partaking of smoochies with Lance, but that they were still there and still strong enough for her to choose to try and make the marriage work rather than running off with the sexy knight. If Arthur's head weren't up his ass, he'd have realized exactly that when she told him about the sand and her choice to not use it. Now, I expect those feelings to disintegrate along with the sand if the magic gets lifted. 1 Link to comment
Camera One October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 Guinevere's "hug" with Lancelot seen by Spyglass Arthur (what? he finally took his eyes off the ancient scrolls?) was way too over-the-top. In such a strict medieval society, I would have expected their goodbye to be a little more formal, despite what they had just been through. 1 Link to comment
Shanna Marie October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 Yeah, the sand isn't breaking the magic rule of making someone love you. Guinevere did love Arthur, and that's why she parted from Lancelot and told him the truth about the sand. She didn't want to be dishonest with him and wanted to make things work, even though their marriage was strained. The sand just gave the appearance of their marriage having been fixed, without Arthur actually changing anything about what he was doing, and with him actually being even more paranoid, accusing Lancelot of betraying him when nothing actually happened and Lancelot was already leaving. But I imagine after the sand spell breaks, Guinevere will be done with Arthur because what he did to her was a huge betrayal. Then again, Belle is still with Rumple, and while he hasn't magically made her love him, he's done a lot of deceiving her. Link to comment
Camera One October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 (edited) Does Guinevere just carry that magical sand around with her or something? How did she know to bring it to "fix" Snowing? As many people said on the original thread, there is no way Rumple would be so generous with that sand. Why didn't he throw a bunch at Milah or Bae to make everything better? Why not just throw it every enemy that pops up? Edited October 22, 2015 by Camera One Link to comment
YaddaYadda October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 How did Guinevere know where to find Arthur or that he was in trouble? Was she following David who was following Arthur, who was following Snow and Lancelot? How did she know he was in trouble? Please spare me the "our hearts beat as one" explanation, unless a GPS was inserted in there. Link to comment
Mathius October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 (edited) Now we have the error of "Neal gave Emma a dreamcatcher", which is wrong and in fact the truth is closer to the other way around: Emma found the dreamcatcher and Neal kept it, he still had it in his apartment as recently as 4x20. And for the love of God, the next time Hook is about to reference a past event, someone PLEASE tell him to shut it! It is becoming almost a running joke that he just keeps on making continuity errors, including for events he was actually present for. Frequent memory loss: a side-effect of all the times he's hit his head on the floor, I suppose. Edited October 22, 2015 by Mathius Link to comment
YaddaYadda October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 He's a man, he only half listens. 5 Link to comment
HoodlumSheep October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 (edited) I don't see it as a continuity error. He's the one who suggests, "let's keep it." He could have easily told her it was hers offscreen at some point, so he could have "given" it to her. *edited some of my post, because I guess it's kind of spoilerish, so I just want to be safe. Edited October 22, 2015 by HoodlumSheep Link to comment
regularlyleaded October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 (edited) You’re absolutely entitled to fanwank some other scenario that makes the statement “Baelfire gave it to her” true, but it’s a fanwank and not show canon. The statement "Baelfire gave it to her" is a continuity error. Let’s put it this way: You're walking down a sidewalk with a friend. You see a penny on the sidewalk, so you pick it up and say to your friend “Look, I found a penny”. Your friend says “Let’s keep it”. Decades later the story is told as “My friend gave it to me” ????? No. You don’t retell it like that because that’s not what happened. You say "I found a penny on the sidewalk while walking with my friend." The line in question could’ve been easily written as “It’s a dreamcatcher. Emma found one when she was with Neal.” That’s truthful to what happened. “Baelfire gave it to her” is not true. It’s a lie. Hence, discontinuity in accordance with what’s happened in show canon. Edited October 22, 2015 by regularlyleaded 1 Link to comment
Writing Wrongs October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 Does the episode that showed The Apprentice talking to The Sorcerer take place before Merlin was trapped in the tree? I'm so confused. Plus, The Sorcerer gave Ingrid the scroll and prophecy about Emma through The Apprentice. Link to comment
YaddaYadda October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 He wasn't corporeal when he spoke to Merlin though. It was just a voice. Lily was dropped into the portal some 8-9 months before the curse. I guess around 30 years earlier, Arthur got a visit from trapped Merlin in the tree about the prophecy that concerned him, and 1989, he went to Emma. Merlin might be physically trapped in his tree, but it hasn't stopped him from his shenanigans. Link to comment
Shanna Marie October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 Why didn't he throw a bunch at Milah or Bae to make everything better? He gives Guinevere the sand not too long before the curse -- it's after Belle came to live with him. So he may not have had it when Bae was mad at him, and he may not have wanted things to be better with Milah. At that point, there wasn't any love still there, at least on her part, so there was no repairing a broken relationship. It would have required forcing her to love him when she didn't. Also, he knows that it only gives the illusion of making things better, so maybe he wouldn't have been satisfied with the fake. He probably could have wiped Bae's memories of the bad stuff and tricked him into staying, but he didn't. The thing about the sand is that it's not a real fix. Under the illusion of shiny, happy Camelot, it's really just a crappy broken kingdom. Link to comment
Mathius October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 (edited) Merlin's visit to Emma was almost definitely incorporeal, since it was played out in a way like Emma was the only one who could see or hear him. That's probably the same way he visited Arthur when Arthur was a boy. Physically, he's trapped in a tree, but his magic is powerful enough to mentally project himself outward at will. This begs the question why he hasn't done that presently, but maybe we'll get an explanation for it in the upcoming episodes. Maybe. Edited October 22, 2015 by Mathius Link to comment
LizaD October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 So from the all seasons thread, talking about Emma's tree I just realized something. Blue said the tree only had enough magic to protect 1 person or technically 2 since the 1 person thing was a lie. But then in S2 Emma and Snow was going to use that tree again. Shouldn't the magic be all used up already? It already protected 2 people. But then they burned it down and it still had power! And the tree was never supposed to be a way to realm hop? Didn't Blue say the tree was only a protection shield for Emma from the curse? The explanation then was that since the curse ripped everything away in that universe, which turned out to be a lie in the retcons, then taking her to LWM was the only protection. But there was no curse chasing after them in S2 so what gives? 1 Link to comment
Shanna Marie October 22, 2015 Share October 22, 2015 Blue said the tree only had enough magic to protect 1 person or technically 2 since the 1 person thing was a lie. But then in S2 Emma and Snow was going to use that tree again. Shouldn't the magic be all used up already? It already protected 2 people. But then they burned it down and it still had power! The tree originally had to make the journey between realms when our world had no magic in it (and both Pinocchio and Emma went through before the curse), which might have taken more power. Once our world had magic, portals became a lot easier, so maybe there was enough residual magic to create a link. Plus, they had that magic compass, which seems to have been a critical ingredient. It's really Merlin's doors that screw up the realm-jumping, along with the Shadow. And whatever portal the Apprentice opened that sent the egg, Ursula, and Cruella. Those all happened when our world was the World Without Magic. Once Storybrooke was in place and there was magic, portals worked. Link to comment
Rumsy4 October 26, 2015 Share October 26, 2015 How come Hook and Elsa know all about the concept of dating, but Violet's apparently not heard of it? Link to comment
Shanna Marie October 26, 2015 Share October 26, 2015 How come Hook and Elsa know all about the concept of dating, but Violet's apparently not heard of it? I was thinking the same thing. The way she talked was the way I'd have expected Hook to react when Emma asked him on a date. "Are you courting me?" Then last week, he referred to playing poker and identified Merida as a Scot. I'm sure they have gambling and card games, but poker? Does their world have a Scotland, too? Though I guess in the missing weeks between 4a and 4b, they could have put together a regular poker night in Storybrooke, in which Hook quickly learned the game and managed to beat David, Archie, and Leroy on a regular basis. Link to comment
AnotherCastle October 26, 2015 Share October 26, 2015 Well to be fair to Regina, Belle consented. She did not: Part of the Heart of Gold recap ABC put up and later deleted since it got moved into the next episode: As for Regina, she steals Belle’s heart. She believes the Evil Queen needs to do what she does best in order to save the people she loves. x Interview with Lana Parrilla from the time the the episode was filmed: She’s learning how to use her powers differently than she did before. Before it was just to hurt, to manipulate, to terrorize, and now it’s to protect. And that’s the difference between Regina and some of the other heroes. They don’t want to kill, they don’t want to hurt anyone, but Regina is not afraid to kill or hurt someone if it’s for the right reason. If she can protect the greater good, and if that means ripping someone’s heart out, then she’ll do so. source The showrunners confirmed it in different interviews: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/30/hot-seat-once-upon-time-bosses-answer-burning-questions http://www.ew.com/article/2015/10/16/once-upon-time-spoilers-hot-seat http://tvline.com/2015/10/18/once-upon-a-time-season-5-fall-finale-episode/ (In the comments Matt Mitovich also confirms it again) Adam and Eddy seem to have completly forgotten everything about the scene where Belle gets her heart back or didn't care enough in the first place though, as they seem to be under the impression that Belle doesn't know that Regina took her heart at all and that Regina was the one who 'undid' it. So pretty much zero chance of it being adressed on the show. Unless they retcon it with a flashback of Regina mind wiping Belle again shortly after 4.18 and Belle finding out about her heart again. But yeah, very unlikely it ever come up considering the characters involved and that thanks to A&E forgetting Belle just works with Regina like nothing ever happened. Link to comment
KingOfHearts October 26, 2015 Share October 26, 2015 She did not:Part of the Heart of Gold recap ABC put up and later deleted since it got moved into the next episode: If Regina stole it, why did they imply she asked for it with that scene where she asks Belle for help? The only reason Belle did not know about it later is because Regina ordered her to forget it. 1 Link to comment
AnotherCastle October 26, 2015 Share October 26, 2015 (edited) Because I think they wanted to trick the audience with us thinking Belle was trying to help Regina and Robin (and get rumbelle shippers hopes up for a scene) and have the surprise reveal that Regina had Belle's heart and was controlling her in that moment and it wasn't Belle after all. Edited October 26, 2015 by AnotherCastle Link to comment
KingOfHearts October 26, 2015 Share October 26, 2015 Because I think they wanted to trick the audience (and get rumbelle shippers hopes up for a scene) and have the surprise reveal that Regina had Belle's heart and was controlling her in that moment. Which moment are we talking about here? Link to comment
AnotherCastle October 26, 2015 Share October 26, 2015 (edited) Which moment are we talking about here? The scene at the wishing well in Sympathy for the de vil. Edited October 26, 2015 by AnotherCastle Link to comment
Rumsy4 October 26, 2015 Share October 26, 2015 (edited) We didn't see Regina actually asking Belle permission. She says I need your help and then presumably Regina took her heart. I just cannot see Belle willingly let Regina take her heart out of her chest to use it as leverage against Rumple. Edited October 26, 2015 by Rumsy4 2 Link to comment
AnotherCastle October 26, 2015 Share October 26, 2015 We didn't see Regina actually asking Belle permission. She says I need your help and then presumably Regina took her heart. I just cannot see Belle willingly let Regina take her heart out of her chest to use it as leverage against Rumple. That's what I think too. And if you rewatch the scene, Regina pretty much has her 'Evil Queen about to do something evil' smirk when she say: 'So glad you asked!'. I don't think it's far fetched to think she just ripped Belle's heart out right after. Link to comment
Amerilla October 26, 2015 Share October 26, 2015 Adam and Eddy seem to have completly forgotten everything about the scene where Belle gets her heart back or didn't care enough in the first place though, as they seem to be under the impression that Belle doesn't know that Regina took her heart at all and that Regina was the one who 'undid' it. So pretty much zero chance of it being adressed on the show. That is their habit. I think they see themselves as "big picture" guys, and they honestly don't seem to comprehend that a lot of their viewers (and reviewers) are looking at the details. It turned out to be a not-all-that-important plot point in the "big picture," and so they forgot about it...and they can't seem to retain it, even though they (and the actors) have been asked multiple times now. To me, the setup of the scene made it clear that Regina took it without permission, simply because she poofed into the store and appeared behind Belle with her Evil Queen face on. They couldn't show it that way because they needed Regina to convince Emma not to turn dark in those same episodes, and that's a harder sell for the audience if Regina is unambiguously using Belle as a meat-puppet. 2 Link to comment
HoodlumSheep October 26, 2015 Share October 26, 2015 I was thinking the same thing. The way she talked was the way I'd have expected Hook to react when Emma asked him on a date. "Are you courting me?" Then last week, he referred to playing poker and identified Merida as a Scot. I'm sure they have gambling and card games, but poker? Does their world have a Scotland, too? Though I guess in the missing weeks between 4a and 4b, they could have put together a regular poker night in Storybrooke, in which Hook quickly learned the game and managed to beat David, Archie, and Leroy on a regular basis. Poker's been around since about the early/mid-18th century, so I could see Hook possibly knowing what it is. Also, I totally see him as a card player. Poker, cribbage, Rummy...maybe there's a Poker night at the White Rabbit? 2 Link to comment
YaddaYadda October 26, 2015 Share October 26, 2015 These are things I don't put too much stock into, personally. Why wouldn't they have poker in the EF since they have champagne, rum, and a whole other bunch of things. About last night's episode, how did Merida know about Henry's book, and where to find it? That came out of nowhere. How did Emma think of the dreamcatcher? Was she spying on her parents, and saw what Arthur did to them? 1 Link to comment
HoodlumSheep October 26, 2015 Share October 26, 2015 These are things I don't put too much stock into, personally. Why wouldn't they have poker in the EF since they have champagne, rum, and a whole other bunch of things. About last night's episode, how did Merida know about Henry's book, and where to find it? That came out of nowhere. I assumed it was because Emma (who knows about the book) has her heart, so it's a heart-control thing? I don't know. Link to comment
YaddaYadda October 26, 2015 Share October 26, 2015 I assumed it was because Emma (who knows about the book) has her heart, so it's a heart-control thing? I don't know. Eh! I don't know either. I'd think Emma would send what's her face (totally blanking out on the name) straight to Gold's shop to retrieve the cup, since Emma should know about it. Continuity on this show really, really sucks, Link to comment
Recommended Posts