Continuity, Nitpicks, Unanswered Questions and Timeline Headaches: When Did That Honeycrisp Apple Come From

[Camera One]

To me, the setup of the scene made it clear that Regina took it without permission, simply because she poofed into the store and appeared behind Belle with her Evil Queen face on. They couldn't show it that way because they needed Regina to convince Emma not to turn dark in those same episodes, and that's a harder sell for the audience if Regina is unambiguously using Belle as a meat-puppet.

 

If Regina took it with permission, that memory should have been returned to Belle after she got the heart back.  I think it was mostly a dumb way to draw out suspense, so we don't know how Regina planned to have Belle help, and so they could "surprise" us when Belle as Regina spoke harshly to Rumple.  For me, it would have been more interesting if Belle had indeed agreed to have her heart taken out.  But then their whole Rumple-got-my-heart-back-for-me-he's-not-that-bad! plot wouldn't have worked.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I just interpret the scene differently, I guess. I personally don't see the reason to even get tension by Regina stealing her heart. At the time, there was plenty else going on. It never even went anywhere anyway.

[LizaD]

So if Emma has the voice of all the previous DOs in her head, why did she need a dream catcher to know that a Dark One tree-ed Merlin and how it happened? She should already know it.

 

They also reiterated it in an interview around the time of the premiere.

 

 

"And as Emma is the Dark Swan, she can call on all of the knowledge of the previous Dark Ones."

 

A&E wrote 5x5 themselves lawd. I can't even fanwank that she temporarily banished her dark inner voice cause she was ripping out hearts and throwing full on black magic.

[YaddaYadda]

I can give them a pass on that. Not everyone watches this show on an obsessive level like we do, or reads the press around it. I didn't bother with it until I became spoiled. 

 

Yeah, an explanation from Emma would've been I know what all the previous Dark Ones have done, but then the dreamcatcher would be a jump the shark moment, which I know this show is full of anyway.

[Camera One]

So now that the main characters have met Merlin, are they going to ask questions like...

 

"So what was up with creating the Hat that could cleave the Dark One from the Dagger?"

"Why did you create the job of Author and why the hell would you give the Author a pen which could change the story?"

"Why is your house in Storybrooke and why did you just leave the hat box and the key to Isaac's book prison there?"

"Why do you tell your Apprentice nothing?"

Edited October 29, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

Well, considering that the first Dark One treeing Merlin was something like a thousand years ago, that means there are a lot of memories that Emma doesn't have the context for. It would be like remembering something that happened to you as a toddler. The more recent memories from Rumple are probably a lot more vivid, and then they get vague and fuzzy going back from there. Rumple alone has a couple of hundred years worth of memories.

 

If they'd bothered to give us any transition between episodes, they might have shown her using the dreamcatcher as a tool to access her own Dark One memories. Maybe that's what happened -- this is her way of processing all that stuff in her head and sorting through it to find the useful information. Otherwise, I'm not sure how she got memories of Merlin in a dreamcatcher, wave it around the tree?

[Mari]

Is it possible the first Dark One didn't die?  That the "darkness" was transferred somehow other than the next one killing her?  If so, then Emma maybe wouldn't have the memories, because the memories would still be in the original person.

[Shanna Marie]

Is it possible the first Dark One didn't die?  That the "darkness" was transferred somehow other than the next one killing her?  If so, then Emma maybe wouldn't have the memories, because the memories would still be in the original person.

That's a good point. The fact that Dopey was treed in a way very similar to Merlin suggests that the person who treed Merlin is still alive, so Emma may not have access to those memories.

 

Though, does she have access to Rumple's memories? He's still alive.

 

But at the moment, there's a lot of wibbley-wobbley about the Dark One, with nothing really set in stone on screen.

[Mari]

Though, does she have access to Rumple's memories? He's still alive.

But, Rumple did die--if by some quirk the original Dark One is alive, they can point out that she has Rumple's memories right up to the part where he stabs Pan.

[Shanna Marie]

Something occurred to me ...

 

It's weird that they showed Arthur and Guinevere as children together in the same small village and yet somehow growing up to have totally different accents from each other. But what about the ages?

 

I remember us discussing the casting call and how they were looking for a Guinevere who was about ten years younger than Arthur. I don't know the exact ages of the actors, but I'd put him at late 30s-early 40s and her around 30. There have to be at least five years between them. And yet in the flashback, they seemed to be about the same age. She might have been about two years younger, at most. For their past ages to fit with their current ages, she'd have had to be a small child when he was a tween.

[shoregirl]

Maybe the magic sand keeps her looking young? Maybe obsessing about a sword than the dagger ages people? Or maybe casting people like casting older men with younger women and think no one notices? :)

[Camera One]

In real life, he was born in 1981 and she was born in 1988.  The Young Arthur and Young Guinevere actors are about the same age (he's either 13 or 14 and she just turned 14).  The writers could have changed their conceptions of the characters after the Casting Call.  I mean, the actress playing Adult Guinevere is still 7 years younger than the actor playing Adult Arthur, but I can't really tell the difference.  They chose to have the Younger versions about the same age, so I am guessing they decided to make them equals in age by the end of the process.  Unless it was just blatant sexism that Adult Guinevere had to be younger than Adult Arthur in the original casting call (which wouldn't surprise me either).

 

Regarding the accents, if someone has an accent by age 14, they would carry that onto adulthood.  Maybe Young Guinevere moved to the village shortly before the flashback we saw.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Camera One

[DigitalCount]

But, Rumple did die--if by some quirk the original Dark One is alive, they can point out that she has Rumple's memories right up to the part where he stabs Pan.

Lol, does that mean she has Malcolm's memories too?

[KingOfHearts]

 

The question is, can Once sustain a 42 minute episode without dedicating 10-15 minutes to flashbacks?

I don't think so. The last time we had an episode completely without flashbacks was Into the Deep, in 2A. As far as I know, that was the only episode not to. There's a couple of gray areas that I'm not sure some would count or not.  For example, the 3B finale shows the past but linearly to the two main characters. If you count 4x22 as one episode, it has no flashbacks either. But if you pair it with its two-parter counterpart, there are the Isaac flashbacks.

 

In a couple of other scenarios, the change of setting follows more of a parallel pattern. The Arendelle events in 4x09 run parallel to the present, but some of them had to have occurred earlier in the past for it to work. Correct if I'm wrong. In 2x01, all of Storybrooke's events are technically flashbacks.

[InsertWordHere]

I would consider both the Season 3 and 4 finales to be non-flashback, except for the Isaac and young Emma parts. But they're kind of unique episodes and not something I could see the showrunners doing more than once a season. 3.1 only has one small flashback. Dark Hollow, like Into the Deep, has no flashbacks but switches between Storybrooke and Neverland. I don't know why they don't do this more often, it would get rid of some flashbacks but keep both the realm the heroes find themselves in and Storybrooke relevant each episode. As for 2.1, the Storybrooke timeline starts off as flashbacks but eventually catches up to Mulan's timeline.

 

I don't think they will ever get rid of flashbacks for more than an episode or two at a time. They simply don't want to write enough for the core group as it currently stands to cover 42 minutes of an episode. Not if they can't show Regina as Evil Queen in that time frame or if they have to show some kitchen sink moments. Even the brief flash sideways were for Anna and Mulan/Phillip/Aurora, not any of the main cast.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Dark Hollow, like Into the Deep, has no flashbacks but switches between Storybrooke and Neverland.

Dark Hollow actually does have a flashback in the very beginning. It shows what Belle did immediately after Rumple left for Neverland.

[InsertWordHere]

Like the brief Emma flashbacks in 3.1 and 3.22, I don't really count Dark Hollow as a flashback episode, which is what I should have said. Dark Hollow has a flashback, but most of the episode has the events in Storybrooke running concurrently to the events in Neverland. The scenes from after the Jolly Roger departs are just catching up Storybrooke to the Neverland timeline. 

Edited November 7, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[Camera One]

No, flashbacks are their writing crutch. That's how they build in their weekly surprise twists.  Even when they have two concurrent storylines, these are often in two different "realms", usually one line of storytelling reveals something "surprising" in the other line of storytelling.  Having an entire episode in one time period or place would force them to add in way more character moments or deeper character development, which they have no interest in doing.  Two clearly distinguishable plots allow you to be easily distracted by one, right when the other one might start to drag.  For example, even in the latest episode.  You have two clearly distinguishable plotlines, with connections but also with separate beginning, middle, end - Merida/Belle vs. the Clans; and Belle/Rumple vs. Dark Emma and Merida - both only require 15 minutes of material.  Then, they throw in a C plot for the remaining 10 min.  And sometimes, even a D plot.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Like the brief Emma flashbacks in 3.1 and 3.22, I don't really count Dark Hollow as a flashback episode, which is what I should have said. Dark Hollow has a flashback, but most of the episode has the events in Storybrooke running concurrently to the events in Neverland. The scenes from after the Jolly Roger departs are just catching up Storybrooke to the Neverland timeline.

If you're talking about the flashback formula, then yes there's never been an episode with completely present day Storybrooke or completely FTL. The show has always flipped back and forth between different settings. Instead of filling an episode with pointless flashbacks, they should use meaningful subplots or slices of life. Normally that would be appropriate, but A&E don't know how to do that correctly.

 

 

Meaningful subplots or slices of life don't have the surprise factor.  They would compare it to Grumpy and Blue finding the spare part in a hardware store in one subplot, and telling Emma and Snow, who can now repair their kitchen sink in a second subplot.

Well the plot is so much more interesting than the characters, obviously.

Edited November 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Meaningful subplots or slices of life don't have the surprise factor.  They would compare it to Grumpy and Blue finding the spare part in a hardware store in one subplot, and telling Emma and Snow, who can now repair their kitchen sink in a second subplot.  Frankly, I'd rather watch that than Merida and the Clans.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Camera One

[InsertWordHere]

If you're talking about the flashback formula, then yes there's never been an episode with completely present day Storybrooke or completely FTL. 

In my original question, I meant

the Underworld arc featuring just that realm and present day characters interacting with dead characters in Enchanted Forest scenery but staying in the Underworld

. That's different than just FTL realm or just Storybrooke, which I agree they will never do except for maybe a very special episode. Even the above scenario in spoiler quotes, which would allow for change of costume and scenery, is still kind of pushing it for these writers IMO. 

[snarkastic]

Okay, let's pretend that Hook/Rumpel/etc. stories all happened only 100 years ago. Fine*. But if the Apprentice was a little kid 200 years ago, then an old man when Zoso was the Dark One (more than 100 years ago), it's implied that he is aging normally. So how was he still alive in present day??? Where did he get his sudden late-in-life immortality from???

 

*Actually, I don't have a problem with that. It makes sense for the Darling timeline, and it's still before the Geppetto fiasco.

[YaddaYadda]

The Apprentice kicked the bucket as per Hook in 5x06.

 

Seriously though, the timeline on this show makes me miserable, and I might start screaming if they have Jane doodle a timeline on a board like they did last time. I think they've established that Arthur is a Snowing contemporary, no?

 

Unless time really doesn't pass the same way in Camelot, and I mean they have yet to explain why they weren't pulled by the dark curse.

[Rumsy4]

I give up. The writers never learned the concept of time or calendars years.

[Mari]

All they would have had to do is have the timestamp say "200 years later" instead of "200 years earlier."  That would give them several hundred years of wiggle room.

 

Yeah, right, they have an actual time-line that they look at and yeah, right they have someone whose job it is to check nothing cancels something else out.

 

Any bets on if/how they'll try to excuse this one?  

Edited November 9, 2015 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

Okay, but even then, 1000 years before Arthur's time, Merlin is a fugitive, he doesn't have magic. 200 years earlier, is it earlier than 1,000 years they mentioned at the start, because if that's the case, then Camelot shouldn't exist the way we saw it, and if 200 years before the current timeline, then Rumple is the Dark One. 

 

And then, he mentions how he's had magic for 500 years, so I suck at math, but I think that means it should be 300 years before the current timeline (ok I confused myself with this, so I'll have to sleep on it)

 

Whichever way I slice it, it doesn't work.

Edited November 9, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[snarkastic]

The Apprentice kicked the bucket as per Hook in 5x06.

 

That's why I said WAS alive. ;)

 

Basically, Mickey would have to have been at least 200 years old, which seems unlikely, and he clearly aged which rules out immortality.

 

And, yeah, outside of Mickey's age, if they had said 1000 years ago, then 200 years later, most of the headaches would be solved, including why the heck there were so many Dark Ones.

Edited November 9, 2015 by snarkastic

[pezgirl7]

The 200 Years Earlier thing must just be a mistake. They had Merlin drinking from the grail 1000 years ago, and they had him tell Nimue it happened 500 years ago. So I'm just chalking it up to a pretty bad mistake, and it should have said 500 years earlier. Even then, I don't know how all those other dark ones came to be in such a short time from then to when Rumble became the dark one. 20 dark ones in 200 years?

[Mathius]

Merlin probably had a way to keep Mickey alive for all that time given that his magic could open up doorways through space and time, and the whole Author business also involved timelessness.  His magic is just that darn powerful, since it came from the Grail (as did the Dark One's, and Rumple DID specifically tell Lacey in 2x21 that his power could keep her alive and ageless too, plus his deal to either de-age or age up Smee, and offer to de-age Neal.)

[Shanna Marie]

To make things even worse, in the previous episode, they said Merlin had been stuck in a tree for a thousand years. So, a thousand years ago, he drank from the Grail and became immortal. Then 200 years ago, 500 years later, he forged Excalibur and Nimue became the Dark One. Some time after that, she turned him into a tree, where he was stuck for a thousand years.

[snarkastic]

Merlin probably had a way to keep Mickey alive for all that time given that his magic could open up doorways through space and time, and the whole Author business also involved timelessness.  His magic is just that darn powerful, since it came from the Grail (as did the Dark One's, and Rumple DID specifically tell Lacey in 2x21 that his power could keep her alive and ageless too, plus his deal to either de-age or age up Smee, and offer to de-age Neal.)

 

So, he waited until Mickey was old before making him immortal? Like, why not do it in the prime of his life. And he must have done it while he was in the tree, right? (Seriously, what was the point of putting him in the tree if he can still do everything?) Or else he was not treed until after bestowing immortality on Mickey, and then there's even less time between Nimue and Rumpel.

 

And, yeah, so much for tethering the Darkness to a human soul as per last season's finale. I wish there was some evidence that the writers have watched their own show.

Edited November 9, 2015 by snarkastic

[Camera One]

Wait... Adam hasn't tweeted how it all makes sense yet?

[InsertWordHere]

There's no way that "200 years earlier" timestamp wasn't an error. 

 

If it's five hundred years and a dozen dark ones between Nimue and Rumple, it still seems too short, but at least it's workable. 200 years is actually impossible. Even though I think making Hook, Neal, and Rumple closer to 150 years (to match with Bae's landing at the Darlings)  old was the better option. But they've used 200/300 in reference to Hook and Rumple too often for it not to be canon at this point.

 

I don't mind Mickey having an extended lifespan. I think being around Merlin just caused him to age really, really slowly. Remember how Merlin caused everything to grow in the desert straight after drinking from the grail? Maybe he was able to do something similar to chosen humans, he just didn't know it yet when he was around Nimue. Isaac also had a longer lifespan. He became the author in 1964 and didn't seem to age, even though he was never physically near Treelin. Henry does not seem to have the non-aging problem.

[Camera One]

Here is Jane Espenson's clarification via twitter:

 

Matt C ‏@TheMatthewPaul  2 hours ago
@JaneEspenson Many of us are confused about the timeline of the Merlin flashback. Any way to clear things up?

 

Jane Espenson ‏@JaneEspenson  2 hours ago
@TheMatthewPaul Merlin's story began pre-Camelot.  Several centuries passed.  Then Nimue marks the beginning of the legacy of Dark Ones.

[Mathius]

(Seriously, what was the point of putting him in the tree if he can still do everything?)

Yeah, that's the confusing part: Merlin is so powerful even from within a tree, so you would think he would have done MUCH more to get himself free faster.

Aside from that, I am actually pleased with how things came together concerning this one specific power. The Holy Grail/Excalibur/Dagger/Merlin/Dark One all share the exact same power: the ultimate power since it is holy, meaning it's from a god or gods and its power is godlike. It is likely the source of all magic power. Literally nothing can destroy it except itself.

Merlin drank from the Grail and received that power, then Nimue did too. The Grail was turned into Excalibur in order to destroy the power within Merlin, but Nimue broke it so that it couldn't be done. Nimue used the power for a dark cause (cold-blooded murder in the name of vengeance), which was in direct violation of its holiness and so it turned her dark. Merlin tethered Nimue's soul to the dagger, but couldn't bring himself to kill her, so she took it and used it to tree-ify him.

Since the dagger was part of Excalibur, it had the power to kill Nimue. But if anyone who is not Merlin and thus not possessing the holy power does the deed, Nimue's soul/power would merge with the assailant's soul rather than dying outright. Now Merlin is free and could destroy the Dark One, but that would mean killing Emma, so the only other way is to reforge Excalibur since the full weapon can destroy the power within Emma while still sparing her life, just as Merlin attempted to do to himself long ago. However, Nimue wants to turn the full Excalibur into a weapon against light magic instead, so that nothing can ever threaten the Dark One's existence again.

This also explains just how Rumple killed himself and Pan that one time: stabbing himself with the dagger meant death for him, since only the power can destroy the power, and by doing it through Pan's body, Pan was caught up in the magical reaction and died along with his son. Nimue's soul/the Darkness had no-one else to inhabit so it went back into its vault until Neal stupidly engaged in that resurrection ritual.

So yeah, a really well thought-out story concept for this show. I'm impressed!

@TheMatthewPaul Merlin's story began pre-Camelot. Several centuries passed. Then Nimue marks the beginning of the legacy of Dark Ones

That doesn't explain the error. "200 years ago" should have read either "500 years ago" or "1000 years ago", because otherwise it does not fit in any way, shape or form. Edited November 9, 2015 by Mathius

[Camera One]

However, Nimue wants to turn the full Excalibur into a weapon against light magic instead

 

This is the part that makes no sense.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Camera One

[Mathius]

This is the part that makes no sense.

Not really. If the ultimate power shaped into a weapon is strong enough to cut itself out from someone, then it can cut all lesser forms of magic out from anyone. Dark Emma can go around purging the realms of light magic by using Excalibur against all wielders of light magic, and without Merlin and the dagger there would be no way of stopping her unless someone stole Excalibur from her and used it against her, which is easier said than done.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Mathius

[Camera One]

If that's the case, I can see where this is going.  Then, every good magical user will be at risk.

[Mathius]

Yes, but I can't help but suspect that Nimue's desire for Excalibur and Emma's desire for Excalibur are not the same thing. Nimue wants light magic extinguished, but Emma wants something else, and I think it has something to do with Hook.

Calling it right here and now: Emma wants to tether Hook's soul to Excalibur before making it whole again, so that the two of them can be immortal together. She wants what Nimue originally wanted for herself and Merlin before she became the first Dark One.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Mathius

[InsertWordHere]

I don't see how Excalibur would make her that much more invincible than previous Dark Ones have been. Dark Ones have been killed by non-magical people. Zoso was controlled by the non-magical Duke and killed by non-magical Rumple. 

[HoodlumSheep]

I wonder if people ask Adam enough (politely), if he would be kind enough to draw out another little timeline. Or admit that it was a typo mistake. I would be fine if Adam just admitted it was a mistake. I'd forgive him. typos happen or maybe info didn't get relayed properly.

Then they could fix it for the dvd release.

[YaddaYadda]

Jane Espenson ‏@JaneEspenson  2 hours ago

@TheMatthewPaul Merlin's story began pre-Camelot.  Several centuries passed.  Then Nimue marks the beginning of the legacy of Dark Ones.

 

She explained what everyone got.

 

I want an explanation on the numbers.

[kili]

Calling it right here and now: Emma wants to tether Hook's soul to Excalibur before making it whole again, so that the two of them can be immortal together.

 

Emma made Excalibur whole last night and I didn't seek Hook's name on it.

[Shanna Marie]

If that's the case, I can see where this is going.  Then, every good magical user will be at risk.

Both of them?

 

Because there's already a serious shortage of good magical users. There were the witches in Oz, and there are the fairies, but do they count because they come from a magical race? And then there's Merlin himself and his Apprentice, and now Emma. Regina, depending on what side of the bed she gets up on that day. But almost every magic user we've met otherwise has been evil (or useless). They had to cast the curse to reach Emma to find a light magic user to take on Zelena. Would destroying good magic actually change the status quo all that much?

[Mathius]

I don't see how Excalibur would make her that much more invincible than previous Dark Ones have been. Dark Ones have been killed by non-magical people. Zoso was controlled by the non-magical Duke and killed by non-magical Rumple.

 

 

Because the tethering spell was exclusively on the dagger, when it was a dagger.  With the whole Excalibur, no-one would be able to control her if they stole it from her.  And while Excalibur could still kill her, if there's no more light magic, anyone attempting to steal it to do so would very easily be overpowered by Emma's dark magic; she could take the sword back in a poof of smoke.  And remember, Zoso was killed by non-magical Rumple because he WANTED to be killed.  

 

Emma made Excalibur whole last night and I didn't seek Hook's name on it.

 

Forgot that.  I guess she wants to do the spell on the complete sword, not the broken one.

Edited November 9, 2015 by MostlyC
tagged for spoilers

[Camera One]

One day and still no clarification about the dates... no access to a white board?  

[Camera One]

So I just rewatched that opening scene from "Dreamcatcher" in light of what we found out about Merlin and Nimue in the latest episode.

 

If Merlin had stabbed Nimue, wouldn't he turn evil too into another Dark One?  Why not use the full sword to cut the Darkness out of her?  Why did he so idiotically drop the Dagger?  Drama queen much?  Why was he referring to Nimue in the third person?  Isn't Nimue inside the Dark One, like Emma is inside Dark Emma?  Even Belle could see the light in Dark Rumple.  Since Nimue has less accumulated darkness, wouldn't be easier to find the light in her?  How is she living her existence as the Dark One?  Was she living out her promise to "hand out power to those who need it"?  

Edited November 10, 2015 by Camera One

[Mathius]

If Merlin had stabbed Nimue, wouldn't he turn evil too into another Dark One?

No, Merlin already has the same power as the Dark One in its original uncorrupted form, so Nimue's wouldn't be able to pass it (and her soul) on to him if he stabbed her, and he wouldn't be corrupted internally like Nimue was either due to the special nature of the killing.

Why not use the full sword to cut the Darkness out of her?

Prometheus' Flame was put out and Nimue had its last ember, there was no way Merlin could have made the sword whole.

Why did he so idiotically drop the Dagger? Drama queen much?

Yeah, pretty much. He loved her too much to stab her.

Why was he referring to Nimue in the third person?

Because he was suffering from Obi-Wan Kenobi's "certain point of view" syndrome.

Isn't Nimue inside the Dark One, like Emma is inside Dark Emma? Even Belle could see the light in Dark Rumple. Since Nimue has less accumulated darkness, wouldn't be easier to find the light in her?

It may be a special case, since the Dark One / the Darkness is Nimue, it's literally her darkened soul passing from person to person and adding their soul's darkness to herself. She's a symbiotic entity, and all Dark Ones afterwards have been her hosts. While the good Nimue might be still there deep down, it's not in the same way as Emma or Rumple.

How is she living her existence as the Dark One? Was she living out her promise to "hand out power to those who need it"?

That seems to be the case.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Mathius

[KAOS Agent]

 

How is she living her existence as the Dark One?  Was she living out her promise to "hand out power to those who need it"?

 

I think that's it exactly. The Dark One makes deals to "help" people. Of course, all magic comes with a price and they are using dark magic to get something without working for it, so they ultimately end up suffering for it, but this is exactly what Nimue was doing,

[Mathius]

It's why every Dark One has this penchant for "deals".  Nimue, when she was good, wanted to help people.  When she's dark, she still does but only if she gets something in return.