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S07.E22: Chosen

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Here's a place to discuss the series finale. Where were you when it aired? 

I had driven from Arizona to Los Angeles, thrilled to be watching it with 500 other BtVS fans, some of which I'd 'known' for years through AICN - the site that was putting on the "Buffy Bash" (I still have my lanyard tags from it) at the old Athletic Club. It was an incredible and singular fandom experience, one I will never forget. 

Here's something else I will never forget; Matthew Heitzer's final tribute to the show. He was my favorite ScoopMe writer back in the day, going by Hunter Maxin at the time, and this was his swan song for Buffy. It's long, it's beautiful, and it's well-worthy of the Slayer and her fandom. Enjoy.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20030811011431/http://www.scoopme.com/tv/articles/default.asp?article_id=108116

 

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I was finishing 6th grade when the finale aired, but I wasn't watching the show at that time.

 

I watched the finale two years ago. At first I was boggled by some things, mostly from the big battle scene. Like why are the Uber Vamps so easy to kill? Shouldn't they have Willow perform the spell first and then go into the Seal? Because Willow said that there was a high risk that she'll lose control and turn evil again. She told Kennedy to kill her if that should have happen.

 

But I recently re-watched it, and all the plot holes don't matter to me now because the execution of the battle was so well done. Everything from the action and the music had me invested. It was one fist pump moment after the next with some shocking moments in-between. *cough*Anya's death*cough*

 

But among the other things I enjoyed from re-watching this episode include:

 

  • Buffy's cookie dough speech. Some may think it's ridiculous but I think it's a cute analogy.
  • Most of the Spuffy scenes. Spike's drawing of Angel and his "tall, dark, and forehead" line was hilarious!
  • Faith and Wood's first scene together. I love Wood's line, "Oh, please. I am so much prettier than you are," even though I disagree with him because Eliza Dushku is just...gorgeous!
  • The gang talking like it were the old days, especially the nod to "The Harvest" with Giles saying "The Earth is definitely doomed."
  • Spike and Willow's parts in the battle. They've been my favorite characters throughout the whole show, and I love how they literally shone in their roles!
  • Felicia Day as Vi. I couldn't believe I didn't noticed that Felicia played one of the Potentials! I love her line, "These guys are dust" and when she's trying to help Rona: "Look at me! This is nothing! Do you hear me? This is nothing!" Joss compliments her a lot in his commentary for this episode, and I know why.
  • The final shot.

 

My biggest peeve with this episode is Joss allowing Willow and Kennedy to be the couple who survives. I appreciate his decision to let one of the Scoobies have a relationship at the end, but I rather not see the show end with Willow dating someone as sub par as Kennedy. Plus when Kennedy calls Willow a goddess, I felt Joss was trying too hard to make me care for her. Joss said in his commentary that he wanted to create someone to be the opposite of Tara, but who would have a strong, natural presence with Alyson Hannigan. However, I felt the relationship was very forced and the two had no chemistry. But, on the bright side, Alyson is happily married to Alexis Denisof, whom I approve.

 

All in all, a great way to end a great series!

Edited by desperatelibrarian
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The first time I watched it, I was at a friend's house (IIRC). I watched it again in a hotel room in Nashville, TN with two other friends I had met online at The Soulful Spike Society message board.

I don't care for Kennedy's "Goddess" line, either.

Count me among those who dislike the "cookie dough" speech.

Love, Love, Love the Sacred Fire erupting as Buffy and Spike have their final moments together. The fire that burns but does not consume. Yes.

IDRC - I was at home when I watched this the 1st time. Oops.

Edited by Dianthus
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I hate the episode and have gone on at great length about it elsewhere. But I will admit that I actually kind of liked the cookie dough speech. 

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I didn't particularly like Kennedy (though I didn't hate her like some people I know) though I DID hate what they did to Anya, but what sticks with me to this day about the series finale is the whole thing being about female empowerment. This is nonsense. The crux of it is that a bunch of men, thousands of years ago, took a young girl and put demonic essence into her (against her will) to create the first slayer. Buffy and Willow decided to do a spell with the scythe to take the power out of their hands and give it to all of them women with the potential to be Slayers. The problem is, except for the potentials that were there with them, none of the women in the world knew what was happening or had given their consent. So what Buffy and Willow really did was the same thing as the shadow men, only without the actual bondage and on a global scale. Another nail in the coffin of the female empowerment argument though, is the whole spell was pointless. They created thousands of new Slayers but they were facing hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of uber-vamps. Even if every single new Slayer had been teleported to the cavern they would have all been slaughtered and the First would have won anyway. It wasn't Buffy, Willow, or the Slayer spell which saved the world, it was Spike (a guy) and his necklace of doom, which incidentally was given to them by Angel (another guy). Buffy wasn't the ultimate hero of her own show, and no woman was either, it was Spike who saved the day.

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It was also two guys (Giles and Xander) who saved the day at the end of s6. Buffy didn't defeat Dark Willow. OTOH, the other characters are pretty much free-range bits of Buffy (see Primeval), so she kinda does, by proxy.

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 It wasn't Buffy, Willow, or the Slayer spell which saved the world, it was Spike (a guy) and his necklace of doom, which incidentally was given to them by Angel (another guy). Buffy wasn't the ultimate hero of her own show, and no woman was either, it was Spike who saved the day.

 

Yes, true. But none of them would have even been there, if not for her.

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 It wasn't Buffy, Willow, or the Slayer spell which saved the world, it was Spike (a guy) and his necklace of doom, which incidentally was given to them by Angel (another guy). Buffy wasn't the ultimate hero of her own show, and no woman was either, it was Spike who saved the day.

The ultimate hero of the show wasn't Angel or Spike.  The ultimate hero or heroes of the show were Wolfram & Hart.  The Senior Partners were the ones that had the scrubbing bubbles amulet, and passed it off to Angel while telling him about Sunnydale.  That amulet was given to Angel by Lilah Morgan, so you could say Lilah was the ultimate hero of Buffy, which I'd support.  By that point, I liked Lilah more than Buffy.

Edited by Jediknight
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I hate the episode and have gone on at great length about it elsewhere. But I will admit that I actually kind of liked the cookie dough speech.

I liked the cookie dough speech also. But I was kinda "meh" about this episode.

I did love Angel coming back ~Bangel fangurl moment~ and Buffy just smiling because she hasn't smiled like that since season 4.

I loved him being on the last episode because Angel was there in the very beginning giving her a neckless.

I loved their kiss ~sigh~

I loved her giving him hope saying she does think about him being in her future and their little hand touching and lingering because they still love each other.

I loved him walking off into the dark because that's how their relationship is, I just loved it.

I don't think I liked anything else except the Scoobies all surviving

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I don't think I liked anything else except the Scoobies all surviving

 

   All? I assume you mean the core four Scoobies, because otherwise Anya's ghost would like to have a word with you.  :)

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Episode 144 out of 144.  Quality-wise as well as chronologically.

 

I've written reams and reams about this, the Worst Episode Ever, and I'm sure I'll unearth them at some point for this thread, but what's really "great" about this episode is how it fails on almost every front.

 

Want Buffy to be the hero?  Nope, Spike and the Senior Partners save her ass.  (How about just a broader theme of female empowerment?  Nope, the "power up" spell made no difference, in the end. Vi is all "these guys are dust" when the spell hits…and she's completely wrong.  If not for the Amulet of Assitude, Vi would be as dead as Chao An and Amanda.)

 

Want the Scoobies together at the end?  No two of them fight in the same location, W/G/X aren't even "special enough" to be allowed into the main battle, and Willow is "spelled out" and essentially out of the episode barely after the halfway point.  Oh, you mean emotionally together?  Well, after years' worth of having their friendships shredded, Joss tries to paper it over by raping the corpse of The Harvest and regurgitating some dialogue, only this time the words aren't about Buffy facing life (and implicitly, her mortality), they're a bunch of random shout-outs to various chain stores.  Oh, joy.  (And he tricks it up with a circly camera, just because.  Whatever, douchebag.)

 

Buffy "taking back the night", her sacrifices worth it because she gives others the chance for the normal life she can never have?  Nope, Joss's "happy ending" involves the town being dropped down a sinkhole for the sake of a mediocre CGI shot, homes and property and memorabilia lost forever (no more visits to Jenny's, Joyce's or Tara's graves for our Scoobs…guess Willow could have put flowers on the grave instead of the "permanent" stones after all), and probably dozens or hundreds killed.  (No way did a town of 38,500 completely evacuate; Buffy found a straggler in Touched, just two nights previously.  Okay, granted that guy apparently got killed when Buffy kicked him out of his house, since Spike was later able to enter uninvited [or maybe Spike killed the guy ;) ], but still, I'm sure there were others.  The Bronze was doing full business as recently as Empty Places.)  Seven years in that graveyard, pretty much wasted.

 

Oh, okay, screw thematic sense and that sort of thing, how about just basic plot consistency?  Well, let's see, Joss threw away his entire season arc (there are only a few Potentials out there! We must save the Slayer line!) for the sake of the "power up" moment (which will end up ruining many lives, as later seen with Dana), so that's out the window…well, how about just keeping the plot logical within the episode, that can't be too tough, right?  Like, say, if Buffy gets a "mortal wound" so convincing that The First believes it (and taunts Buffy about it) and Buffy herself believes it (which is why she gives Faith the Axe) and Faith believes it (which is why she takes the Axe), well, then surely there would be a reason why Buffy suddenly isn't dying, can suddenly run and jump and outrun a CGI effect that swallows the entire city whole, right?  It can't be as stupid as "um, Buffy just decided not to die", right?  Otherwise she could have made that decision while she was falling into the portal during The Gift and spared us the last two years of mopery, self-pity, bitchiness, and dumpster sex.

 

(See?  Issue after issue after issue and I haven't even touched on the Spuffy crap or Andrew or the false "choice" of the spell or the basic stupidity of the plan or…I suppose this doesn't bring out the completely visceral hate the way the "Buffy and Spike share a post-coital laugh about the people Spike killed" scene in Dead Things does, but that's "merely" casually vile;  this is a deliberate show-wrecking from stem to stern, incompetent every step of the way.

 

And hey, I just realized, it's racist, too!  Faith boned a black dude two episodes ago, and now she's suddenly speaking "ghetto"? [Never mind that Robin came from the " 'hood" of Beverly Hills.] Sheesh.  Joss has mad skillz, yo!)

Edited by DAngelus
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All? I assume you mean the core four Scoobies, because otherwise Anya's ghost would like to have a word with you. :)

I hated Anya and I never considered her a Scoobie, so yeah the core four and I liked Dawn and Faith surviving.

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After ditching the show early on in S6, I did woman up and watch this one later. Apart from the Buffy/Angel bits - which I've had liked more of, and not the lovey-dovey stuff but the perspective Buffy (hopefully) gained from her past experience - yes, even including the disasterous Spuffy stuff. No, instead we got the cookie dough speech, which didn't really work for me.

The rest of it was a big pile of 'meh'. Hated Anya's "blink-and-you'll-miss-it" death, hated that everything from back when the show was actually good got sucked into a hole (metaphor much?). It wasn't helped by the fact that I hadn't watched the previous episodes and didn't care about the Potentials, although I've read comments from people who did watch those episodes and they didn't care either, so...

It just wasn't the show I adored, so if I could sum it up in one word it'd be "disappointment". Even Faith couldn't make it interesting.

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I was on a work trip in Chicago when the finale aired (I live near Philadelphia). I was at a formal work dinner/event with a fellow Buffy fan during the actual airing, sitting at a table of about 10 people, and we talked throughout the night about how sad we were to be missing it. No on-demand/DVRs in those days, so I was hoping my VCR back home wouldn't mess up taping it because of a random power outage or something similar. I finally saw it about a week later, with another friend/fan who waited to watch the taped episode with me, at her house.

 

I was pretty annoyed with most of s7, so I wasn't really expecting much. I found the episode mostly satisfying without giving it too much critical thought, because by the time Buffy reached s7, it really didn't deserve any critical thought from me. The posts above make very good points about why it ultimately sucked, but it had enough good moments to raise it to a solid "meh" for me.

 

Oh and I was pissed about Anya - she is my favorite character and Selfless is one of the few redeeming things in s7 for me - and also pissed about knowing about Spike's ultimate fate before the episode even aired.

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I've never understood the argument that Buffy sharing the slayer power with all the potentials was like her spreading the taint of a rape around, since the original power was gotten from a demon raping a woman. That's too hating children born of rape to me.

Here's the thing, though:

 

I don't think you can deny that Buffy, with an enabling assist from Willow, did in fact force something on who knows how many girls all over the world without their consent. The handful of Potentials who were in Sunnydale at the time in no way represented the whole of the Slayer line,, since the unknown Baseball Girl and the other girl who was about to be attacked were only the ones we saw having the powers being bestowed on hem. And if you saw the AtS episode Damaged, I don't think you can deny that it was not entirely positive for the power to be shared with everyone who was going to be a Slayer. We didn't see Dana get her abilities, but given that it finished shattering her already badly cracked psyche, wouldn't it have been better for her not to have the means to kill a bunch of people? Not that I didn't laugh when she cut Spike's hands off, because I did, but actual innocent people who had never done anything were murdered, and Buffy kinda-sorta gave her the strength to do it. Now imagine a dozen or more girls just like Dana. Season three Faith would be a drop in the bucket compared to people who are actually insane due to being called. I hate it, but its still canon, and much like Spike supposedly becoming a hero due to his "noble sacrifice" (barf) I can't pretend it didn't happen.

Edited by Cobalt Stargazer
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I wasn't too shocked with Anya dying as I recall Emma Caulfield was so vocal about wanting to leave the show. Remember up into the middle of season 7, the chance of a season 8 was still decent, with most core stakeholders being interested. It was only when SMG told the world (and Joss) via Entertainment Weekly did the idea get truly staked.

Anyway, with Emma Caulfied leaving, I figured the writers would use it as an opportunity to kill a Scooby. Which they did. I was only mildly suprised they didn't do it a couple of episodes prior (I'm thinking the one where Anya and Andrew had the wheelchair fight after going on s mission to the abandoned hospital).

The biggest thing that annoyed me was killing Amanda, the one potential I liked! Why couldn't they get rid of Rona or Kennedy instead? Those girls were annoying.

The rest of the episode to me was just a big 'meh' (similar to a few other peoples). It just wasn't the same show I was deeply into only a few years prior and I just struggled to connect to the characters and give a damn.

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I too hate that they killed Amanda. I think I read that the writers wanted to kill a potential we really cared about, or some such, and I understand the reasoning, but it just shows what a poor job they did with the rest of the potentials and that the writers knew it and knew that the audience knew it.

Positioning the Scoobys the way they did never made sense to me. I know that five out of six survived (not counting Willow who was having a rest after the spell) but, really, it didn't make sense they did considering the threat, and the characters should have known they wouldn't "realistically" survive in those pairings. Strategically, the ubervamps couldn't leave the school anyway (because daylight) so wouldn't fighting them and the harbingers as a united six person group made the most sense?

That said, I do actually love the fight at the Hellmouth, but only if I view it as an isolated event.

Edited by joelene

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Xander should have taken some construction equipment, smashed the school, and buried the Hellmouth opening. That would have given them more than enough time to seal the portal up magically. Buffy's plan, on the other hand, was kind of like sending a random handful of poorly equipped ground troops into Hiroshima, just to see if they could shoot a few people and run away before the atomic bomb dropped.

Edited by CletusMusashi
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Let me start by saying I own the box set of DVD's of Buffy. All seven of them!!!   I was and always will be a Buffy fan.

 

I loved the final ep Chosen. I thought it was a perfect way to end the series. All the potentials become the chosen so Buffy gets to have an ordinary life. I loved her expression when Faith points that out to her.

 

I loved that Spike basically saved the day. I was ok with Willow being a "goddess" and I was even ok with Anya dying. The whole ep worked for me so I have very few if any complaints.

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And so it ends....

The Good; It's all wonderful. Two favourites, Vi slapping Rhona and Dawn saving Xander.

Women good/men bad; The Shadowmen created only one Slayer so that they could control her but now Buffy and Faith share their power with thousands of girls worldwide.

Kills; see IMDb Buffy FAQ

Recurring characters killed: 19-goodbye Amanda, my favourite Potential. Goodbye Anya, a bit character who became a huge part of the Buffyverse. If Joss had killed Buffy, Will, Xander and Giles or Faith the fans wouldn't forgive him and if Dawn died it would be no victory for Buffy. We expect Wood or Andrew to die but instead he defies our expectations and kills our beloved Amanda and Anya, we paid for our victory.

For me it would still have been a victory as long as Dawn made it, that would still mean the good guys won. But I'm so glad that Buffy and Dawn get to walk off into the sunset hand-in-hand with most of their Scooby friends/family following.

In total this means on Buffy we lose one regular or recurring character killed every 8 eps or so, was any other show ever so ruthless in killing off it's main cast? To all those who played their part and gave their lives for the greater good and those they loved.

Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara, Joyce, Katrina, Tara, Quentin Travers, Chloe, Molly, Jonathon, Miss Kitty, Amanda, Anya

And as for Spike...?

Total number of scoobies: thousands!

Dawn the bashful virgin; 10 finally understands about Kennedy's pierced tongue.

What the fanficcers thought; Lovely one called The Circle where after the final battle Dawn finds the letter Amanda left for her, telling her that she loved her, that Dawn is to have a long and happy life and that Amanda will wait for her in heaven. It ends with Dawn kissing the letter then burning it, explaining to Faith that it's the only way she could think off to get her kiss to Amanda.

All time favourite has to be The Last Scooby where an elderly Dawn is the last survivor of the Sunnydale gang, a contented grandmother surrounded by her numerous, loving family. She dies in her sleep and is reunited with Buffy, Joyce and everyone she ever loved in heaven, everyone young and beautiful again and in each other's embrace forever. But is she the last Scooby? Who is the white-haired, immortal witch crying tears of sorrow and joy over Dawn's peaceful body? Also a nice one speculating where the actors will be ten years after the show, James Marsters having joined a monastery, Emma Caulfield in prison, Michelle Tractenberg a presidential contender with Britney Spears as her running mate, Amber Benson on CSI;Nebraska etc 'Where are they now? And if you need a happy ending to every Buffy/Angel darkfic ever try 'Buffy; The Final Fanfic' where no matter what other fanfic writers do it provides a happy ending to them all. 

Questions and observations; There's another (presumably inactive) Hellmouth in Cleveland where alternate Buffy was based in The Wish. Dawn refers to herself as Watcher Junior. Despite all his self-doubt over the years Buffy entrusts Xander with Dawn, the most precious thing in the world to her.

When Buffy and Spike hold hands and their fingers catch fire it's reminiscent of their discussion of love in season 6 when she dumps him, she tells him that their love would burn until there was nothing left. But Buffy finally breaks away here from their destructive love and goes off to see the world, the endless road ahead which Buffy looks down after the bus stops then looks back at the crater as the Sunnydale sign falls into the wreckage. For the past is history and the future promises great things for them all.

How lovely that the last words we ever hear spoken on Buffy are by our wonderful Dawn (Joyce having spoken the first words).

So Buffy defeats the First Evil, destroys the Hellmouth and shares her power with thousands of girls all over the world, forming a Slayer army to annihilate the forces of darkness. She and Faith can now share the evil fighting responsibilities and look forward to having grandchildren and dying in their beds as happy old ladies. She smiles her enigmatic, hopeful little smile...

OR Buffy has destroyed Sunnydale and defeated her demons, sealing the Hellmouth forever, sharing her power with thousands of girls, overcoming herself in the form of the First. Faith tells her from now on she has to live like an ordinary person. "What are we going to do now Buffy?" asks Dawn. Buffy smiles her enigmatic little smile...

...and wakes up in the asylum we see her in during Normal Again, her sanity restored after 7 years. To Hank and Joyce's delight she embraces her normal existence once more, struck by how much her imaginary Sunnydale Scoobies closely resemble her friends from Hemery High, all of whom are still alive as the events of the Buffy movie were all part of her fantasy. She enjoys a long, happy, successful life, writing a series of bestselling fantasy books/TV shows/movies based on her delusion. And calls her children (and Hank and Joyce's beloved grandchildren), Dawn, Rupert, Faith, Willow and Alexander.

OR Post-Chosen Sunnydale Buffy can live more normally again and Asylum Buffy in a parallel universe is no longer driven crazy by her visions of the Slayer so she too becomes sane again after 7 years and gets on with her life, still only 23.
 

Looks like someone made a complete recovery but forgot to take her meds today?

Whichever way, she makes it, our girl makes it, good for her!

Marks out of 10; 10/10, the fantastic last ep of the best television series ever. We shall never see it's like again At the end Joss thanks us for watching his show. No Joss, thank you for making it. And thank you everyone here for discussing it with me, it's been a real pleasure.

Now if you'd like to join me over at the Angel board to discuss season 5 et al. 

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This episode is such an embarrassment and such a huge disappointment that it's hard to find the proper words. Therefore I'll just quote what was said before.

On 13.06.2014 at 9:15 AM, DAngelus said:

Episode 144 out of 144.  Quality-wise as well as chronologically.

 

I've written reams and reams about this, the Worst Episode Ever, and I'm sure I'll unearth them at some point for this thread, but what's really "great" about this episode is how it fails on almost every front.

 

Want Buffy to be the hero?  Nope, Spike and the Senior Partners save her ass.  (How about just a broader theme of female empowerment?  Nope, the "power up" spell made no difference, in the end. Vi is all "these guys are dust" when the spell hits…and she's completely wrong.  If not for the Amulet of Assitude, Vi would be as dead as Chao An and Amanda.)

 

Want the Scoobies together at the end?  No two of them fight in the same location, W/G/X aren't even "special enough" to be allowed into the main battle, and Willow is "spelled out" and essentially out of the episode barely after the halfway point.  Oh, you mean emotionally together?  Well, after years' worth of having their friendships shredded, Joss tries to paper it over by raping the corpse of The Harvest and regurgitating some dialogue, only this time the words aren't about Buffy facing life (and implicitly, her mortality), they're a bunch of random shout-outs to various chain stores.  Oh, joy.  (And he tricks it up with a circly camera, just because.  Whatever, douchebag.)

 

Buffy "taking back the night", her sacrifices worth it because she gives others the chance for the normal life she can never have?  Nope, Joss's "happy ending" involves the town being dropped down a sinkhole for the sake of a mediocre CGI shot, homes and property and memorabilia lost forever (no more visits to Jenny's, Joyce's or Tara's graves for our Scoobs…guess Willow could have put flowers on the grave instead of the "permanent" stones after all), and probably dozens or hundreds killed.  (No way did a town of 38,500 completely evacuate; Buffy found a straggler in Touched, just two nights previously.  Okay, granted that guy apparently got killed when Buffy kicked him out of his house, since Spike was later able to enter uninvited [or maybe Spike killed the guy ;) ], but still, I'm sure there were others.  The Bronze was doing full business as recently as Empty Places.)  Seven years in that graveyard, pretty much wasted.

 

Oh, okay, screw thematic sense and that sort of thing, how about just basic plot consistency?  Well, let's see, Joss threw away his entire season arc (there are only a few Potentials out there! We must save the Slayer line!) for the sake of the "power up" moment (which will end up ruining many lives, as later seen with Dana), so that's out the window…well, how about just keeping the plot logical within the episode, that can't be too tough, right?  Like, say, if Buffy gets a "mortal wound" so convincing that The First believes it (and taunts Buffy about it) and Buffy herself believes it (which is why she gives Faith the Axe) and Faith believes it (which is why she takes the Axe), well, then surely there would be a reason why Buffy suddenly isn't dying, can suddenly run and jump and outrun a CGI effect that swallows the entire city whole, right?  It can't be as stupid as "um, Buffy just decided not to die", right?  Otherwise she could have made that decision while she was falling into the portal during The Gift and spared us the last two years of mopery, self-pity, bitchiness, and dumpster sex.

 

(See?  Issue after issue after issue and I haven't even touched on the Spuffy crap or Andrew or the false "choice" of the spell or the basic stupidity of the plan or…I suppose this doesn't bring out the completely visceral hate the way the "Buffy and Spike share a post-coital laugh about the people Spike killed" scene in Dead Things does, but that's "merely" casually vile;  this is a deliberate show-wrecking from stem to stern, incompetent every step of the way.

 

And hey, I just realized, it's racist, too!  Faith boned a black dude two episodes ago, and now she's suddenly speaking "ghetto"? [Never mind that Robin came from the " 'hood" of Beverly Hills.] Sheesh.  Joss has mad skillz, yo!)

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:)

One more note…Buffy's last two lines of dialogue on what was allegedly her series are:

"I love you" (to Spike), and

"Spike"

Well, at least Joss didn't imply that Buffy and Spike had sex, and bless it on the commentary track.  Oh, wait, he did that, too.  Grr, argh, indeed.

On 6/13/2014 at 2:15 AM, DAngelus said:

Want the Scoobies together at the end?  No two of them fight in the same location, W/G/X aren't even "special enough" to be allowed into the main battle, and Willow is "spelled out" and essentially out of the episode barely after the halfway point.

When you think about it, in 1.02 shy wallflower Willow Rosenberg, who just found out about the supernatural the night before and has no special abilities (unless you count being able to "wrest some information from that dread machine") takes part in the climactic action and sends a centuries-old vampire running off into the night.  Whereas in 7.22, SuperWillow never approaches the battle, spends the back half of the episode unseen and passed out on the floor, and her big spell probably got more lots and lots of girls killed, for no good purpose. Girl Power!

(Yes, she gets to be a prop in Joss's ongoing feud with Brad Kern by pinching the title of that year's Charmed finale ["Oh My Goddess"] for a line of dialogue, but that hardly makes up for the rest.  Now, if she and Kennedy had fucked again and Will had screamed "Something Wicca This Way CUMS" at the moment of climax [playing on the name of the Charmed pilot] I might at least have smiled, but still.)

That's just awesome! (Although somebody needs to correct the aspect ratio, obviously.)  And wow, is Sarah acting Alicia Minshew into the ground, or what?  Such a crime so many years of her talent have been wasted in semi-retirement.  Sigh.

59 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Now if you'd like to join me over at the Angel board to discuss season 5 et al.

There's no such animal.  Spike stayed dead, Wesley visited Cordelia in the hospital every day until she woke up from her coma and they moved to Miami (where his cream suit was finally in style) and set up a design studio.  What's to discuss?

Okay, so Harmony came looking for a job and Fred staked her.  But that took what, a minute?  Not worth thinking about.

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I have read and watched an awful lot of crappy stories but I can't recall any other writer needing not one but two Deus ex Machinas to get the plot to the desired conclusion. And not only that but here the Deus Ex Machinas were generously provided by the Big Bad of this show and the Big Bad of another show on another network who was never even mentioned on BtVS. Absolutely staggering degree of incompetence and I am supposed to consider it inspiring, empowering and what not? No, a thousand times no.

And don't get me started about the clear message of non-superpowered humans being useless, about the Turok Hans needing to be hilariously weak for no reason in order for the good guys to win despite the two Deus Ex Machinas or Buffy's "brilliant" plan that required the Potentials being powered up in the midst of battle for no reason. Oh and how the hell did Buffy know the Scythe had enough mojo to power the Potentials? How did Willow use the Scythe magical AI to find all Potentials in the world? Why did the genius "Guardian" never bother to inform Buffy about this incredibly powerful Scythe before Caleb so conveniently unearthed for Buffy to steal? Why is this show so stupid now?

Quote

Women good/men bad; The Shadowmen created only one Slayer so that they could control her but now Buffy and Faith share their power with thousands of girls worldwide.

More like "Women good/men bad: The protagonist of this supposedly feminist show is saved from her own stupidity by Ex-Boyfriend #1 and Ex-Boyfriend #2. Joss subverting his own message due to his incompetence? Say it isn't so!

The Shadowmen didn't have the Scythe of plot convenience and could only give Buffy more power by making her less human. Is there any actual evidence to suggest they could have made many more Slayers but didn't?

Quote

We expect Wood or Andrew to die

No, we don't, everyone could see that Andrew was the ultimate writer's pet.

Edited by Jack Shaftoe
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1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

 

There's no such animal.  Spike stayed dead, Wesley visited Cordelia in the hospital every day until she woke up from her coma and they moved to Miami (where his cream suit was finally in style) and set up a design studio.  What's to discuss?

Okay, so Harmony came looking for a job and Fred staked her.  But that took what, a minute?  Not worth thinking about.

Lol. Why a design studio? 

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Because Cordelia is fashionable and has (finally) learned that acting isn't for her.  And this way, Wesley will never think about challenging her authority.   He can just file the patents on her designs, or something useful like that.  Plus, given how vampires dress, she'll be able to spot any evil undead that come through the door in about a half-a-second.  And she'll make lots of money and be surrounded by beautiful clothes, which is how the universe was meant to be.

I suppose she'll need to get rid of the visions (girl's put in enough time as TPTB's bitch).  Fine, they got dumped on Connor as the price of the mind-wipe.  He periodically gets these random twitch-fits, which scare the holy knickers out of his loving family in Northern California, but they go away after a few seconds, and the doctors don't think it's a major problem, just as long as he takes his anti-convulsants.  Of course, Tracy (his vegan girlfriend) worries about his becoming dependent on his meds, but…

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2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

the Deus Ex Machinas were generously provided by the Big Bad of this show and the Big Bad of another show on another network who was never even mentioned on BtVS.

It looks like Sunnydale and LA belong to different dimensions, you know. Not a single mention of Evil Co aka Wolfram & Hart throughout Buffy S.04 - 07 is a thing I can hardly understand, let alone explain. The Senior Partners either didn't know about Buffy's existence or thought she was a small fry (which is kinda odd).

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25 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

It looks like Sunnydale and LA belong to different dimensions, you know.

Not to mention the sun being blotted out in LA and nobody seeming to notice that in Sunnydale. Supernatural forces expunge the fucking sun from the second-largest city in the country, which is just "two hours down the freeway" (per Welcome to the Hellmouth) and nobody says a blinking word.  Sheesh.

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6 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Not to mention the sun being blotted out in LA and nobody seeming to notice that in Sunnydale.

I thought sun being blotted out in LA means it has to be blotted out in Sunnydale either. Because they don't have their "own" sun in LA, do they?

 

12 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Goodbye Anya

It would have been much better if we said goodbye to Anya 44 - 45 eps earlier. For example, in The Gift.

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1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Because they don't have their "own" sun in LA, do they?

Well, the "scientific" explanation for the events of Angel Season 4 would be some sort of localized interference keeping the sunlight from reaching the area.  Such as happened in Britain in 536 due to volcanic eruptions in Iceland that year and the year before sending plumes of ash into the atmosphere; the sun was still there, it just couldn't be seen so well in some places.  (A more modern version of this was 1816, "The Year Without a Summer" caused by the 1815 eruption of Mt. Tambora in Indonesia.)

So the Beast's effect on LA would be more intense and more confined, but could (theoretically) affect only a small area.  (Although it would beg the question of where the "ash" was coming from, of course.)  But there is historic precedent for various parts of Earth receiving different levels of sunlight, due to local interference, yes.

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Well, I've heard about "The Year Without a Summer". And, true, various parts of Earth can receive different levels of sunlight sometimes. But LA and SunnyD weren't various parts of Earth, so to speak. I always thought Hellmouth City was too close to LA and therefore had to be affected as well in one way or another. Both places were parts of the Buffyverse, after all, thus logic dictated... Yet while watching Buffy S.07/Angel S.04 I didn't have that impression (even though Willow's appearance in Orpheus and Angel's in End of Days/Chosen was an attempt to remind us those shows still had something in common). 

Another question: how in the world were The First and Jasmine supposed to deal with their issues, since both had apparently different agendas?  

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Jasmine would have kicked The First's ass in Yahtzee what w/ The First being unable to roll the dice or fill out the scorecard what w/ being incorporeal and all.

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On ‎06‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 10:04 PM, Wilowy said:

Here's a place to discuss the series finale. Where were you when it aired? 

 

I had driven from Arizona to Los Angeles, thrilled to be watching it with 500 other BtVS fans, some of which I'd 'known' for years through AICN - the site that was putting on the "Buffy Bash" (I still have my lanyard tags from it) at the old Athletic Club. It was an incredible and singular fandom experience, one I will never forget. 

 

Here's something else I will never forget; Matthew Heitzer's final tribute to the show. He was my favorite ScoopMe writer back in the day, going by Hunter Maxin at the time, and this was his swan song for Buffy. It's long, it's beautiful, and it's well-worthy of the Slayer and her fandom. Enjoy.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20030811011431/http://www.scoopme.com/tv/articles/default.asp?article_id=108116

 

LkvUvXP.jpg

God, I'd love to have done that! I watched it at home but with a bottle of champagne to celebrate. 

On ‎10‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 2:40 AM, desperatelibrarian said:

I was finishing 6th grade when the finale aired, but I wasn't watching the show at that time.

 

I watched the finale two years ago. At first I was boggled by some things, mostly from the big battle scene. Like why are the Uber Vamps so easy to kill? Shouldn't they have Willow perform the spell first and then go into the Seal? Because Willow said that there was a high risk that she'll lose control and turn evil again. She told Kennedy to kill her if that should have happen.

 

But I recently re-watched it, and all the plot holes don't matter to me now because the execution of the battle was so well done. Everything from the action and the music had me invested. It was one fist pump moment after the next with some shocking moments in-between. *cough*Anya's death*cough*

 

But among the other things I enjoyed from re-watching this episode include:

 

  • Buffy's cookie dough speech. Some may think it's ridiculous but I think it's a cute analogy.
  • Most of the Spuffy scenes. Spike's drawing of Angel and his "tall, dark, and forehead" line was hilarious!
  • Faith and Wood's first scene together. I love Wood's line, "Oh, please. I am so much prettier than you are," even though I disagree with him because Eliza Dushku is just...gorgeous!
  • The gang talking like it were the old days, especially the nod to "The Harvest" with Giles saying "The Earth is definitely doomed."
  • Spike and Willow's parts in the battle. They've been my favorite characters throughout the whole show, and I love how they literally shone in their roles!
  • Felicia Day as Vi. I couldn't believe I didn't noticed that Felicia played one of the Potentials! I love her line, "These guys are dust" and when she's trying to help Rona: "Look at me! This is nothing! Do you hear me? This is nothing!" Joss compliments her a lot in his commentary for this episode, and I know why.
  • The final shot.

 

My biggest peeve with this episode is Joss allowing Willow and Kennedy to be the couple who survives. I appreciate his decision to let one of the Scoobies have a relationship at the end, but I rather not see the show end with Willow dating someone as sub par as Kennedy. Plus when Kennedy calls Willow a goddess, I felt Joss was trying too hard to make me care for her. Joss said in his commentary that he wanted to create someone to be the opposite of Tara, but who would have a strong, natural presence with Alyson Hannigan. However, I felt the relationship was very forced and the two had no chemistry. But, on the bright side, Alyson is happily married to Alexis Denisof, whom I approve.

 

All in all, a great way to end a great series!

Maybe the Slayers had to be close to the Hellmouth for the spell to work? I liked Kennedy and at least one couple had to make it in the end (you could possibly count Wood/Faith?). But some great news on Alexis over on the Angel board....

On ‎10‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 4:12 AM, Dianthus said:

The first time I watched it, I was at a friend's house (IIRC). I watched it again in a hotel room in Nashville, TN with two other friends I had met online at The Soulful Spike Society message board.

I don't care for Kennedy's "Goddess" line, either.

Count me among those who dislike the "cookie dough" speech.

Love, Love, Love the Sacred Fire erupting as Buffy and Spike have their final moments together. The fire that burns but does not consume. Yes.

IDRC - I was at home when I watched this the 1st time. Oops.

Nice to have a Spike fan here, I'm constantly defending him and I'm not even a Spuffer.  

On ‎10‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 9:02 PM, CletusMusashi said:

I hate the episode and have gone on at great length about it elsewhere. But I will admit that I actually kind of liked the cookie dough speech. 

Do you live in bizarro world? Why don't you like it?

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On ‎10‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 11:11 PM, KirkB said:

I didn't particularly like Kennedy (though I didn't hate her like some people I know) though I DID hate what they did to Anya, but what sticks with me to this day about the series finale is the whole thing being about female empowerment. This is nonsense. The crux of it is that a bunch of men, thousands of years ago, took a young girl and put demonic essence into her (against her will) to create the first slayer. Buffy and Willow decided to do a spell with the scythe to take the power out of their hands and give it to all of them women with the potential to be Slayers. The problem is, except for the potentials that were there with them, none of the women in the world knew what was happening or had given their consent. So what Buffy and Willow really did was the same thing as the shadow men, only without the actual bondage and on a global scale. Another nail in the coffin of the female empowerment argument though, is the whole spell was pointless. They created thousands of new Slayers but they were facing hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of uber-vamps. Even if every single new Slayer had been teleported to the cavern they would have all been slaughtered and the First would have won anyway. It wasn't Buffy, Willow, or the Slayer spell which saved the world, it was Spike (a guy) and his necklace of doom, which incidentally was given to them by Angel (another guy). Buffy wasn't the ultimate hero of her own show, and no woman was either, it was Spike who saved the day.

I always took it as a necessary evil, conscripting these girls but allowing them to choose their own destiny with the power bestowed upon them. Better that they have Slayerhood forced upon them than end up dead.  Arguably it is Spike's story of redemption but Buffy triumph's through him, not staying behind to die with him Romeo and Juliet style but getting on with her life, strong and independent. 

On ‎12‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 10:08 AM, Jediknight said:

The ultimate hero of the show wasn't Angel or Spike.  The ultimate hero or heroes of the show were Wolfram & Hart.  The Senior Partners were the ones that had the scrubbing bubbles amulet, and passed it off to Angel while telling him about Sunnydale.  That amulet was given to Angel by Lilah Morgan, so you could say Lilah was the ultimate hero of Buffy, which I'd support.  By that point, I liked Lilah more than Buffy.

I love Lilah but Buffy is my girl and always will be. And Buffy would always have found a way as Angel says (just posted my review of Home over on the Angel board), borrowing a tactical nuke from Riley for instance. I always figured the Amulet may have been WR&H

Spoiler

trying to get their hands on a 'vampire with a soul'. 

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3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

borrowing a tactical nuke from Riley

How would that have helped?  The First would remain as undefeated as it did in canon (say it with me, folks: "INCORPOREAL"!) and the area being irradiated and unlivable wouldn't have been much of an improvement over the "dropped down a hole for a cheap CGI effect" resolution we actually got.

Now if you want to have Riley send a battalion of commandoes to kill the Üntervamps while Willow doesn't waste her mojo on demon-raping girls against their will around the world but instead banishes Windbag from this plane of existence, then Riley would be of use.  But the Fighting Finn adding nuclear fallout to Buffy's Bloody Barmy plan?  No, thank you.

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On ‎29‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 2:11 PM, Halting Hex said:

How would that have helped?  The First would remain as undefeated as it did in canon (say it with me, folks: "INCORPOREAL"!) and the area being irradiated and unlivable wouldn't have been much of an improvement over the "dropped down a hole for a cheap CGI effect" resolution we actually got.

Now if you want to have Riley send a battalion of commandoes to kill the Üntervamps while Willow doesn't waste her mojo on demon-raping girls against their will around the world but instead banishes Windbag from this plane of existence, then Riley would be of use.  But the Fighting Finn adding nuclear fallout to Buffy's Bloody Barmy plan?  No, thank you.

Would have achieved the same effect as Spike without having to sacrifice him? Making the Slayer legion was a good thing, from now on humanity has the advantage and the women are empowered (they could theoretically walk away from their calling if they wished, they're not burning their draft cards). 

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3 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

they could theoretically walk away from their calling if they wished

Spoiler

Dana would like a word with you, were she coherent enough to manage it.

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3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

from now on humanity has the advantage and the women are empowered

So, your point is, all those women just set there dreaming to become Slayers, waiting for the power to arise? Okay, let me get this straight - I'm supposed to sympathize with Buffy whenever she started whining about her duty and living the life she didn't choose, but leaving hundreds or thousands of girls worldwide no choice on the matter is something we all have to be excited about and celebrate? If by "empowerment" of women you mean making decisions for them, then... I don't know what to say actually. 

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On ‎04‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 2:10 PM, Halting Hex said:
  Hide contents

Dana would like a word with you, were she coherent enough to manage it.

Her being traumatised by having her family killed was nothing to do with being the Slayer. 

On ‎04‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 6:28 PM, lembergwatcher said:

So, your point is, all those women just set there dreaming to become Slayers, waiting for the power to arise? Okay, let me get this straight - I'm supposed to sympathize with Buffy whenever she started whining about her duty and living the life she didn't choose, but leaving hundreds or thousands of girls worldwide no choice on the matter is something we all have to be excited about and celebrate? If by "empowerment" of women you mean making decisions for them, then... I don't know what to say actually. 

1. Buffy and all the rest accepted their duty

2. She was saving the world, if she hadn't the girls may well have died anyway. 

3. She gives them the option?

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1. How do we know about the rest?

2. Slayer Activation spell had nothing to do with saving the world. The Senior Partners did it. If not for the amulet, all those girls would have died, power or no power.

Spoiler

3. Oh yes, she does. Only some of those girls will go insane or die due to magic intrusion.

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22 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

1. How do we know about the rest?

2. Slayer Activation spell had nothing to do with saving the world. The Senior Partners did it. If not for the amulet, all those girls would have died, power or no power.

  Hide contents

3. Oh yes, she does. Only some of those girls will go insane or die due to magic intrusion.

1. Buffy, Faith, Kendra, the First Slayer, Nikki Wood, The Japanese girl Spike kills, every one we've ever met.

2. The amulet didn't start working until after the Slayers held the Turok-Han off.

3. How many would die without it? 

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23 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The Japanese girl Spike kills

I guess she was Chinese.

 

23 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The amulet didn't start working until after the Slayers held the Turok-Han off.

They held the Turok-Han off but they didn't defeate it. They would have died just like Amanda, if not for the small gift from W&H. All of them.
 

 

23 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

How many would die without it? 

Zero I guess

Spoiler

(people killed by Dana and the likes of her would probably stay alive).

The Senior Partners did their job well: there was no need to activate each and every Slayer alive. 

Edited by lembergwatcher

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On ‎06‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 6:18 PM, lembergwatcher said:

I guess she was Chinese.

 

They held the Turok-Han off but they didn't defeate it. They would have died just like Amanda, if not for the small gift from W&H. All of them.
 

 

Zero I guess

  Hide contents

(people killed by Dana and the likes of her would probably stay alive).

The Senior Partners did their job well: there was no need to activate each and every Slayer alive. 

Yes, you're right, Chinese

Even if the Slayers had been defeated by sharing the power with everyone Buffy ensured that a Slayer army was waiting to combat them.

That's the choice of the Slayer (and every General ever), sacrifice some to save more, that's like saying we shouldn't use airstrikes/artillery support because we will have inevitable civilian deaths/friendly fire. But the benefit outweighs the risks.

How would Spike have survived for long enough to activate the McGuffin without the Slayers to protect him?

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On 08.12.2018 at 2:58 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

Even if the Slayers had been defeated by sharing the power with everyone Buffy ensured that a Slayer army was waiting to combat them.

Oh come on... What "army"? The mob of super-strong but inexperienced and undisciplined girls doesn't constitute an "army". Every army needs weapons and commanding officers. Also it needs training. And the newly activated Slayer "army" wouldn't have had any of that if Buffy and the others were massacred or captured in the final fight (who would train those girls if Buffy, Faith, Giles, Robin, Willow & Kennedy were either killed or tortured to death?). And they would surely have been if not for the Senior Partners' little gift. The world would have faced the large number of super-powered girls who knew neither what had happened to them nor what to do about it. They would be no match for the triumphant First. Therefore the activation spell had no sense whatsoever if Buffy was determined to just stand the ground and die. For without amulet she had no other option.

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Then again, the Ubies couldn't possibly win against even a single tank, let alone bombers, missiles or any other modern weaponry, so the whole "apocalyptic" threat wasn't exactly that. One of the millions of reason the S7 storyline is as stupid as they come.

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On ‎17‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 12:49 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Oh come on... What "army"? The mob of super-strong but inexperienced and undisciplined girls doesn't constitute an "army". Every army needs weapons and commanding officers. Also it needs training. And the newly activated Slayer "army" wouldn't have had any of that if Buffy and the others were massacred or captured in the final fight (who would train those girls if Buffy, Faith, Giles, Robin, Willow & Kennedy were either killed or tortured to death?). And they would surely have been if not for the Senior Partners' little gift. The world would have faced the large number of super-powered girls who knew neither what had happened to them nor what to do about it. They would be no match for the triumphant First. Therefore the activation spell had no sense whatsoever if Buffy was determined to just stand the ground and die. For without amulet she had no other option.

Thousands of Slayers are an army. The Slayers needed to protect Spike whilst his amulet did its' stuff. The girls would have got it together, they'd have had no choice.   

On ‎17‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 1:22 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

Then again, the Ubies couldn't possibly win against even a single tank, let alone bombers, missiles or any other modern weaponry, so the whole "apocalyptic" threat wasn't exactly that. One of the millions of reason the S7 storyline is as stupid as they come.

Yes, that was always why I was nonplussed by the ending of CITW, as Innocence proves ancient demons are no match for modern technology, 

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1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Thousands of Slayers are an army. The Slayers needed to protect Spike whilst his amulet did its' stuff.

Thosands of well-trained Slayers. And how could the Slayers activated elsewhere in the world possibly protect Spike whilst his amulet did its stuff above Sunnydale's Hellmouth? Who would have given them magic carpet ride or whatever?

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