Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[tv echo]

Alan Sepinwall's quick review of Flash 208 (he'll be posting more thoughts after the Arrow half of the crossover event airs)...

 

Review: 'The Flash' - 'Legends of Today': Enter Hawkman and Hawkgirl
By Alan Sepinwall  | Tuesday, Dec 1, 2015 9:02 PM
http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/review-the-flash-legends-of-today-enter-hawkman-and-hawkgirl

[nksarmi]

I LOVE this thread.  So much of the Flash forum is dedicated to why Iris is being shortchanged and I just peeked in the episode thread this morning and holy cow - they aren't talking about the episode AT ALL!  I bet I'll see more episode discussion when I look in the LoT thread. 

 

I will say that I really, really enjoy Flash, but I guess it's the kind of show that's light-hearted enough that there isn't much to discuss except the relationships and who gets what as far as screen time in concerned.  Because there is definitely not much plot talk going on...

Edited December 2, 2015 by nksarmi

[tv echo]

Vulture review of Flash 208 (the reviewer is not Jenny Raftery, but someone who doesn't care for Arrow)...

 

The Flash Recap: Learn to Fly
By Angelica Jade Bastién  December 2, 2015 2:04 a.m.
http://www.vulture.com/2015/12/flash-recap-season-2-episode-8.html

[Chaser]

Savage may be the Biggest Bad to ever Bad, but I'll take DD. NM is a delight.

[apinknightmare]

I'm only halfway throughthat recap, but seriously:

And worse yet, are we really supposed to believe this white dude is Egyptian?

Edited December 2, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Ceylon5]

I just watched that video and I didn't hear Ollie. I think Barry said "I um, look I'm sorry..."

 

Yes, I can distinctly hear him say, "Hey, I... um..." - two separate words that sound nothing like Ollie.  Close captioning is so often wrong that I only watch things with subtitles if I'm really bored and want to amuse myself spotting all the discrepancies.

 

ETA: And I'm so sure of it that I'd bet my car on it!  In slo mo, there's a long pause between the "I" and the "um".  It's quite clear.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Ceylon5

[Morrigan2575]

Guess he missed the whole 206 reincarnations?

[dtissagirl]

From Sepinwall's review:

 

As always, both the major and minor crossovers tend to benefit the "Arrow" characters more, because they're so much darker by default, even though most of their actors often seem more comfortable doing light comedy.

 

I had never thought about it like this -- that the Arrow actors seem to be more comfortable doing light comedy, but I guess they are? I mean, I really do find Steve's comic timing to be TERRIBAD AWFUL, but Oliver works so well as the straight man, it's crazy how Arrow spends so much time avoiding putting him in that position. I like it that Flash does go there often, and that grumpy old grandpa Oliver gets a chance to shine*.

 

And I think it's an interesting point that the crossovers benefit the Arrow characters more. We'll know more tonight, but the set up for character development during this crossover really does seem to tip towards Oliver and O/F way more than whatever the heck they're doing with Cisco losing a girl after a couple of dates.

 

* I mean. I'm forever disappoint that this version of Oliver Queen isn't full of sarcastic wisecracking puns and zingers 24/7, so I'll take a little bit of goofball wherever I can get it.

Edited December 2, 2015 by dtissagirl

[apinknightmare]

Yes, I can distinctly hear him say, "Hey, I... um..." - two separate words that sound nothing like Ollie. Close captioning is so often wrong that I only watch things with subtitles if I'm really bored and want to amuse myself spotting all the discrepancies.

I watched it with earbuds in. He definitely says Ollie. Maybe he was just trying it out?

Edited December 2, 2015 by apinknightmare

[tv echo]

'The Flash,’ ‘Arrow’ Crossover Charts Course Toward ‘Tomorrow’ Land (SPOILERS)

DECEMBER 1, 2015 | 06:30PM PT  Brian Lowry
http://variety.com/2015/tv/columns/the-flash-arrow-crossover-review-dcs-legends-of-tomorrow-1201651107/

As a consequence, the two-night crossover is even busier and more overpopulated by costumed characters than usual....
*  *  *
... Based on a viewing of the episodes (and SPOILER ALERT if you haven’t seen the first), the crossover largely worked, again, strictly as a fun sort of lark, without doing a whole lot in terms of whetting one’s appetite for the new series.
*  *  *
That said, there’s room for skepticism about this whole “It takes a village (full of superheroes)” approach. And even as someone well-versed in comic-book lore, the amount of exposition devoted to explaining what was going on, and might happen or needed to, was a lot to swallow – and risked becoming unwieldy bordering on clunky....
*  *  *
In this case, the collective brain trust behind the troika of “Flash,” “Arrow” and now “Legends of Tomorrow” are doing all they can to ensure that the latest of those DC-driven properties starts well. Yet while this week’s episodes have provoked skepticism about its future, as they say, only time will tell.

Edited December 2, 2015 by tv echo

[SonofaBiscuit]

The Flash forum is in desperate need of a mod intervention.  Are there even mods there?  Who the fuck knows?

 

Neal McDonough's reaction to The Flash whisking Oliver away was just the best thing ever.  

 

The first part of the crossover was absolutely packed full of characters, but I thought that the show did a wonderful job balancing screen time.  It felt like if there was an organic way to fit the character in there, the show absolutely tried to do that.

 

 

[tv echo]

Short review of Flash 208 by a reviewer who's a Flash fan...

 

The Flash Portion Of The Crossover Event Is So Part 1 It Hurts
BY NICK VENABLE  14 HOURS AGO
http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Flash-Portion-Crossover-Event-So-Part-1-It-Hurts-102837.html

... Sure, this is something that probably doesn’t affect the people who dig on both shows equally, but for one-sided fans like me, it feels like a misguided effort. Unless the effort was to make me watch tomorrow night’s Arrow, because it was successful in that respect. But let’s go over some of the ways the episode fell short of a normal Flash journey...

Edited December 2, 2015 by tv echo

[Chaser]

From Sepinwall's review:

 

 

I had never thought about it like this -- that the Arrow actors seem to be more comfortable doing light comedy, but I guess they are? I mean, I really do find Steve's comic timing to be TERRIBAD AWFUL, but Oliver works so well as the straight man, it's crazy how Arrow spends so much time avoiding putting him in that position. I like it that Flash does go there often, and that grumpy old grandpa Oliver gets a chance to shine*.

 

And I think it's an interesting point that the crossovers benefit the Arrow characters more. We'll know more tonight, but the set up for character development during this crossover really does seem to tip towards Oliver and O/F way more than whatever the heck they're doing with Cisco losing a girl after a couple of dates.

 

* I mean. I'm forever disappoint that this version of Oliver Queen isn't full of sarcastic wisecracking puns and zingers 24/7, so I'll take a little bit of goofball wherever I can get it.

It's impossible to invest in Cisco and Hawkgirl. There is no point. The fact that that is the relationship The Flash portion needed to focus on, did the episode a disservice. Everything with that just felt like cotton candy (artificial and fluffy). Oliver and Felicity carry a lot more depth. With much less focus they conveyed a whole lot more, plus there is the whole not being done after the crossover (Cisco and Hawkgirl)..

 

I like that the Arrow characters get a chance to lighted up in The Flash, but it's odd at the same time. I didn't feel they grounded The Flash characters to appear on Arrow last year. This next episode is going to be interesting.

 

ETA: It's a little disappointing that Laura Hurley felt this was the stronger episode, because I normally agree with her and I felt this episode (outside of a few scenes) wasn't that impressive.

Edited December 2, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[jaytee1812]

Huh? The Flash barely sees a cross word. It's like the chillest place on here.

[Delphi]

I loved Thea, from her telling Cisco he can make decisions when he gets a hair cut to shooting savage off the roof. Yasss, slay girl. Get shit done. Plus her confusion on whether or not they knew the Flash was adorable. She was starstruck.

I liked Felicity's snark over coms and I liked her coat.

I've always liked Caitlin and I've liked Danielle since that silly superhero high school movie with Wonder Woman.

I'm not impressed with the Hawks bit the cgi was serviceable. I did chuckle when Hawkman just pushed her over the ledge. That was funny.

[tv echo]

'The Flash' Recap: 'The Rules Keep Changing' in an 'Arrow' Crossover
Robert Chan   December 1, 2015
https://www.yahoo.com/tv/the-flash-recap-arrow-crossover-legends-of-today-015723255.html

It’s now officially a tradition: Every December, Arrow and The Flash get together for a charming holiday romp.
 

It’s basically an opportunity for both casts to rub elbows and remind us what it is we love about each show by setting them side-by-side: Barry will be a little too cheerful and Oliver will be a little too dour, but Felicity and Cisco will nerd out and remind everybody that we’re all on the same team. Really, the only thing better will be next year, when there will be three shows’ worth of characters cramming into the tiny Arrow Bunker.
*  *  *
It’s interesting that, in addition to their tone, the producers are also separating these shows along the Science/Magic divide. Where will Savage and Legends of Tomorrow fit into that paradigm? He’s an immortal ancient Egyptian, but trailers for the show are full of lasers and giant robots. One of the fun things about these crossovers is it accentuates the difference between the sister shows, and judging from what we’ve seen, the split will be Flash science, Arrow magic, and Legends batpoop crazy.

Edited December 2, 2015 by tv echo

[Delphi]

Huh? The Flash barely sees a cross word. It's like the chillest place on here.

Except that first page of the thread that is nonstop complaining about characters, Iris' screentime, olicity, Felicity and all sorts of hate, sure, you're right.

Like you're welcome that Arrow got you a show to watch every Tuesday.

[Carrie Ann]

I was planning on watching LoT because the ads had a nice caper feel and I liked the other actors, but the Hawks, both in concept and execution, really killed my enthusiasm.  I watch Arrow because I like my heroes a little more grounded, and the soulmates trope is my least favorite form of love story.  Coupled with not liking the actors and I think I'm going to take a pass.  I reserve the right to change my mind, particularly if there is less CGI and more capers.

 

Yeah, uh, I was pretty excited about LoT after the trailer came out, and after I saw Sara and Ray again, and Stein and Jax on TF, but...using the Hawks on the crossover was a mistake, I think. We're already dealing with some ridiculous stuff on both shows--E2, Lazarus Pit, Miniature Dick in a Box--so to add immortality and some "Egyptian" "soulmates" who reincarnate over and over and have wings for some reason? No. Keep that on your own show. And if they're still around next season at x-over time--which I'm now hoping they won't be because the acting was really, REALLY bad, and I felt the cold wind of anti-chemistry blow through their scenes together--then you can just kinda lampshade the ridiculousness and move along.

 

Plus, yeah, the reasoning to come to SC was pretty weak. Uh, they know magic stuff...? Had there been something related to Firestorm, Ray, or Sara, that would have been so much more engaging and effective. I'm sure they're saving things for the LoT pilot but IDGAF about the new characters yet, so don't waste my time on them. I'd rather see the people we already know interact with the other people we know, since our time with them is limited going forward.

 

Anyway. Despite all that dumb Hawk/LoT stuff, I did really enjoy that ep! Cisco and Barry were the right people to come over to SC--I'm glad they didn't stretch to bring people who are either needless liabilities (Iris--sorry, I love her) or just unnecessary (Caitlin). Plus, I did kind of think the Caitlin/Wells piece was interesting. I just wish Jay Garrick weren't such a dud.

 

But the real stars for me were Felicity, Barry, and Oliver. I think the reason GG and EBR work so well together is that they seem to me to have very similar acting presences. I think Charlotte Ross (and maybe others?) have talked about how Emily is a very giving, responsive person to act in scenes with--that she gives you something to react against, and that she will react to whatever you put out as well--and I think GG is, too. GG's eyes always follow and react to his scene partners. His face and body are never static--not just waiting to deliver his next line, but infusing scenes with a warmth that the writing doesn't always provide. He's a very open, loose, energetic presence. That's how I feel about Emily. So when they're in scenes with people who are on that wavelength with them, they really come alive. (I actually think the same is true for Carlos Valdes, but I don't think his serious work is up to par just yet.) And while SA (and DR, actually) doesn't get to show that side as often, he certainly reacts well to that type of energy, because I LOVE his scenes with Barry, almost as much as I love scenes with any combo of OTA. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Morrigan2575]

I was and still am looking forward to LoT, the preview showed last night looked fun. However, I found Vandal Savage and the Hawks to be very weak. Not sure if they'll be a detriment to the series (for me) but, if the Hawks and Vandal Savage were supposed to be a selling point the show failed. Thankfully Roy the Roman, Sara, Cold and Ray seem fun.

[Chaser]

I was most excited about Rip, Sara and Hawkgirl. I have to take Hawkgirl off the list which is hard for me, but I'm still there for the others. The preview did look cool and the Team dynamics they were showing seem entertaining. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[nksarmi]

I was most excited about Rip, Sara and Hawkgirl. I have to take Hawkgirl off the list which is hard for me, but I'm still there for the others. The preview did look cool and the Team dynamics they were showing seem entertaining. 

I'm not ready to take her off the list yet because I think what's not working for her is her story with Cisco.

 

I love Cisco, but his puppy dog, believe this girl kisses me and is a superhero damn near worship of Kendra is not at all interesting.  I think one of the reasons Cisco works with Golden Glider is specifically because he spends so much time going "nope, not gonna like you, you're evil" and she just smiles and goes "yeah, but you like me anyway."  That dynamic is adorbs.  But nothing about Cisco and Kendra worked for me this episode.

 

Once she gets around other characters and the preview of

her and Hawkman actually going at it

and she gets to have a little more personality (I don't know this Hawkgirl - but the other, alien Hawkgirl is a fierce, badass - so I hope Kendra is as well) - I think she will be fine on LoT.

[Tazmania]

I watched it with earbuds in. He definitely says Ollie. Maybe he was just trying it out?

Yup, he did say Ollie and I was like ... Is he hanging out with Thea and Laurel on the sly and has picked up Ollie from them because the two people he knows, Felicity and John Diggle, never called him that.

[Starfish35]

I liked Hawkgirl a lot (and the theme they played for her when she got her wings was beautiful). I wasn't so sure about Hawkman, but after he pushed her off the roof his whole bored attitude toward the whole thing started amusing me.

I was NOT pleased with Vandal Savage, however. I hope he improves, but right now he's feeling like another Matt Nable type of casting bomb.

I think (obviously not having seen the second half) that it's not clicking as well as last year's crossover did, though. It feels like it's being written more as a collection of moments and funny one liners, but it's not as cohesive of a story overall. Like Malcolm's appearances. Yeah, it led to one of the funniest lines in the episode, but it made no sense.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Starfish35

[Chaser]

I'm not ready to take her off the list yet because I think what's not working for her is her story with Cisco.

 

I love Cisco, but his puppy dog, believe this girl kisses me and is a superhero damn near worship of Kendra is not at all interesting.  I think one of the reasons Cisco works with Golden Glider is specifically because he spends so much time going "nope, not gonna like you, you're evil" and she just smiles and goes "yeah, but you like me anyway."  That dynamic is adorbs.  But nothing about Cisco and Kendra worked for me this episode.

 

Once she gets around other characters and the preview of

her and Hawkman actually going at it

and she gets to have a little more personality (I don't know this Hawkgirl - but the other, alien Hawkgirl is a fierce, badass - so I hope Kendra is as well) - I think she will be fine on LoT.

I do agree that the biggest problem for her is the relationship with Cisco. She did look better in the preview. I hope that LOT gives her some layers and grit. She just isn't on my 'must-see' list anymore. :-(

[Starfish35]

Flash ratings didn't get a crossover boost. 1.4.

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/the-sked-tuesday-ratings-12-1-2015.html

[Chaser]

Hidden gems in the scene where Cisco is explaining his relationship to Kendra. Oliver's eyes narrow, Felicity's eyes get real big and Barry starts looking around. 

[Morrigan2575]

Flash ratings didn't get a crossover boost. 1.4.

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/the-sked-tuesday-ratings-12-1-2015.html

They didn't last year either. Arrow benefits more from the crossovers than Flash

[Tazmania]

But the real stars for me were Felicity, Barry, and Oliver. I think the reason GG and EBR work so well together is that they seem to me to have very similar acting presences. I think Charlotte Ross (and maybe others?) have talked about how Emily is a very giving, responsive person to act in scenes with--that she gives you something to react against, and that she will react to whatever you put out as well--and I think GG is, too. GG's eyes always follow and react to his scene partners. His face and body are never static--not just waiting to deliver his next line, but infusing scenes with a warmth that the writing doesn't always provide. He's a very open, loose, energetic presence. That's how I feel about Emily. So when they're in scenes with people who are on that wavelength with them, they really come alive. (I actually think the same is true for Carlos Valdes, but I don't think his serious work is up to par just yet.) And while SA (and DR, actually) doesn't get to show that side as often, he certainly reacts well to that type of energy, because I LOVE his scenes with Barry, almost as much as I love scenes with any combo of OTA.

Couldn't agree more with this. I think someone mentioned earlier that it seems Emily and Grant are friendly in real life and it spills into their on screen camaraderie was also correct. They are a delight to watch and are sort of a buddy comedy onto their own in any scene they do together. Would love it if they show them texting each other or calling each other randomly to remind the audience that these people are friends and have genuine affection for each other.

[Tazmania]

Vulture review of Flash 208 (the reviewer is not Jenny Raftery, but someone who doesn't care for Arrow)...

The Flash Recap: Learn to Fly

By Angelica Jade Bastién December 2, 2015 2:04 a.m.

http://www.vulture.com/2015/12/flash-recap-season-2-episode-8.html

I have tried reading one of her earlier reviews and got so bored because almost 3/4 of the review was a complain that Iris was not getting her due. It was exhausting . Jenny Raftery, on the other hand, is delightful.

[Chaser]

IMO being friends off camera isn't a guarantee that the characters work on screen. I think it comes more down to how the actors approach work. It's one of the reasons I feel there is a disconnect with Laurel and the other characters. KC and the others may be good friends in real life but she seems to have a totally different way of working then the others. She has done good work with KL and PB. She has said that her and PB are very similar and KL has mentioned appreciating how KC approaches her scene (coming in prepared with exactly how she is going to play the scene).

[looptab]

Yup, he did say Ollie and I was like ... Is he hanging out with Thea and Laurel on the sly and has picked up Ollie from them because the two people he knows, Felicity and John Diggle, never called him that.

This is weird guys, I hear "I..um", haha.

[apinknightmare]

This is weird guys, I hear "I..um", haha.

It's possible that he did? But I for sure hear the "L" with my earbuds in. Like, he says, "Hey, Ollie, um..."

[looptab]

It's possible that he did? But I for sure hear the "L" with my earbuds in. Like, he says, "Hey, Ollie, um..."

Yeah, I believe you.:) But I don't hear it at all, haha. It's not a big deal, it's just funny that some of us hear the Ollie part and some don't. I guess it's some weird instance like Felicity's "dangling maybes/babies" from last year (I think there were some doubts over that as well?)

[Delphi]

I heard Ollie to and for a moment I was really hoping for a BTVS moment where Oliver glared and Barry corrected himself, "Ollie..ver"

So Laurel is in Central City visiting Dinah, does that mean I can hope for some Sara today? That would be nice.

I really liked the fun in this, despite the seriousness. I wonder if I wrote an email if they'd consider weekly crossovers focusing n on screwball comedy and hijinks instead of drama.

[calliope1975]

I have a theory that Felicity is purposely buying Fug shirts for Oliver (to make him less hot to the general population) and the boy is so in love that he will wear anything.

 

From Wornontv.net. You know, in case you, too, want to dress your man in an unattractive shirt.

 

 

Yeah, I believe you.:) But I don't hear it at all, haha. It's not a big deal, it's just funny that some of us hear the Ollie part and some don't. I guess it's some weird instance like Felicity's "dangling maybes/babies" from last year (I think there were some doubts over that as well?)

 

I'll have to rewatch and pay attention tonight. This is like the blue white dress thing, right?

 

While I like Team Flash, I think I agree that I like Barry more when he's around Team Arrow. He seems more fun and less emo which makes sense because he doesn't have to shoulder all the superheroing all alone. He can share it with his broody older brother. :D

Edited December 2, 2015 by calliope1975

[bethy]

OK, I had to go back and listen to it again and - though I didn't hear it the first time - it does sound an awful lot like "Ollie." Which just doesn't make sense. So here's my wank (If I'm using that word correctly here), Barry say, starts to say "Oliver" then changes mid-word, almost like a little hiccup/stutter, "Hey, Ol-, I'm sorry I...." 

 

Ta da!

[Delphi]

From Wornontv.net. You know, in case you, too, want to dress your man in an unattractive shirt.

You know, my boyfriend actually owns that shirt and it looks good on him. But he's not built like Stephen. I really think they just don't know how to dress him. It's such a pity.

[tarotx]

I don't think the shirt is ugly per say. It looks good on the leaner torso model. Stephen is just stalkier. He can't wear everything. It's one of the reasons I like him shirtless. You can see all of Stephen's hard work when sometimes clothes hides it well.

[jaytee1812]

Except that first page of the thread that is nonstop complaining about characters, Iris' screentime, olicity, Felicity and all sorts of hate, sure, you're right.

Like you're welcome that Arrow got you a show to watch every Tuesday.

So basically complaints about Arrow and racism. Hardly hate, is it?

[Morrigan2575]

Cisco going to be on LoT.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/02/legends-tomorrow-flash-carlos-valdes-cisco

[Delphi]

There are also complaints about Patty, or Linda when she was around. Complaints about Jay for whatever reason.

And yes, if you were wondering, I consider nonstop posts about people saying they hate Felicity Smoak and they hate Arrow "hate" considering that is how the word is defined.

There is a whole thread in the flash dedicated to social issues, which I read with interest, but I don't need to see it in every thread.

Incidentally, considering the Flash is a pretty racially diverse cast with three people of color on the main cast and people of color in the guest cast I find the whole racial argument regarding Iris lacking merit and merely used as Iris supporters as an argument point.

[looptab]

Do you think they'll send Felicity as well for an appearance on LoT at some point, or not?

[quarks]

I think Gardner Fox, who created the original Hawkman, did have pyramid builder Khufu vaguely in mind when he used the name, but in the later Hawkman comics, Khufu is a prince during the time of Ramses II, who lived after the pyramids were built, so I think Khufu's supposed to just be named after the pyramid builder, although I can't remember if that was stated in the comics or not.

 

With that said, I don't think that any of the Hawkman comics were particularly interested in the actual timeline of ancient Egyptian history - it wouldn't surprise me to learn that many of the Hawkman writers assumed that Ramses built the pyramids. And probably King Tut's tomb, too.

[Sakura12]

I'm giving CR some time to get used to the transition from stage to screen. 

 

As for Vandal I'll see how he is tonight, I didn't get much of a feel for him yet. I just hope we see him do things and not just talk about it like Darhk does. Darhk is fun to watch but I don't find him very threatening.

 

As for the episode I think they tried to cram way too many plots into it. I did enjoy it though. Thea had some great lines and I liked seeing the teams work together. I do agree that Cisco looks like a child next to Kendra, which may have been the point with her really being thousands of years old. Hawkman was kind of dick. Was he trying to kill Barry by dropping him like that? And why. He's 4000 years old, that is enough time to learn how to use your words. He could've easily come to them as friendly and talked to them instead of kidnapping Kendra and fighting them. Team Arrow and Flash have proven to be really trusting since they easily unmask in front of strangers. 

 

And haha at the new secret lair being a secret to no one. They might as well have chosen one of hundreds of abandoned warehouses in Star City for the lair, at least then it might have been harder for everyone to locate it. 

[Morrigan2575]

Do you think they'll send Felicity as well for an appearance on LoT at some point, or not?

I'd like that but, so far I think we have quite a bit on the plate for a 13-16 episode season. Putting in spoilers to be safe

DD, Malcolm, Ra's, Oliver (twice), Laurel and now Cisco all making appearances

[kismet]

^^

THIS, so much. I wasn't kidding when I said my favorite Barry relationships are with the Arrow characters. It really really is, and I never love Barry more than when he's interacting with Oliver and Felicity. It's actually the reason I ended up enjoying this episode a lot, even though VS sounds like a chipmunk, and the Hawks were... there, I guess? But just having Barry interact with O/F will make me rewatch this episode a bunch of times IN DELIGHT. Yes.

DITTO! I feel like a kid in a puppy store-- can we keep him??? Plz I promise to feed him & walk him & everything! !! I just love Barry with the Arrow family.

It's probably why I secretly ship him with Thea just so he can have more reason to be on Arrow.

[looptab]

I'd like that but, so far I think we have quite a bit on the plate for a 13-16 episode season. Putting in spoilers to be safe

DD, Malcolm, Ra's, Oliver (twice), Laurel and now Cisco all making appearances

Oh, I didn't know

Oliver would appear twice. In that recently shot episode and the pilot, I'm guessing? I'd heard about Ra's but not about MM.

You're right, it seems packed.

[wingster55]

. I disagree. She was allowed to share her PoV only when Ronnie was around, so in reaction to him and then if Ronnie wasn't in the episode, she was written like she had totally moved on and put him behind her. They wrote he IMO to suit what ever man she was there to serve. Her characterization felt to me all over the place.

I don't watch The Flash with high expectations and I generally have a soft spot for DP so I like her character well enough and she did get some good emotional stuff in the season opener but expense then her POV was clearly written not based on how her character would most likely feel but so that she could absolve Barry of the guilt that he IMO rightfully carried over Ronnie's death.

Still, at least Catlin got to be emotional about her dead loved one (for at least one episode before she started crushing on someone else, sigh). Did Iris even get to say anything about Eddie? I don't remember. I remember Joe getting condolences from Patty about his partner but did Iris?

 

She got to to talk about Ronnie often before he showed up that again. With Barry, with Cisco. 

 

No Iris hasn't gotten any perspective about that. 

 

 

I have questions about Patty. How much does she know about Flash, STAR Labs, Earth 1 Wells, Joe's involvement in everything? She didn't really raise objections when Joe told her to leave when a man who I presume is believed to be dead (or isn't he?) is lying seriously injured.

I think that'll play a part on next week's Flash. 

[statsgirl]

I loved Felicity's perky "My pigs in blankets".  She so eager to be a good cook, and it's one thing she just can't do. 

.Yeah, but at this point, haven't The Flash viewers already made their decision whether to watch Arrow based upon last year's crossover? I think they've just decided they will force the other show's viewers to watch the opposing show so as to inflate the ratings for both crossover episodes as much as possible. I know they think they're being clever but it's just pissing some people off.

I think it's partly because they get excited at having a shared universe, and partly to get Flash viewers to watch Arrow. (Other than the ones on the Flash board who prefer to hate without watching.)

 

Last year there was a bump in the Arrow ratings after the last crossover, which the show promptly lost through being so depressing and taking Oliver offscreen for new masks.

 

Is it me, or has Jay become the Laurel of The Flash? Walking around with a perpetual storm cloud over his head, prone to stalking in, making judgmental self-righteous pronouncements, and then storming out. I am really getting tired of it.

Jay was always a problem on the show from his first appearance, which saddens those of us who like Teddy Sears.  They don't know what to do with him other than make him an antagonist for those characters who are all Go, Barry! (which is pretty much everyone else on the show).

 

Also his hat is really stupid.

 

You know, I don't mind complaints that Iris wasn't in the episode, seriously, the more I thought about it, the more I agreed that there is something really messed up happening in that writer's room - none of the female characters on that show do anything unless their actions affect or are first are filtered though some guy's storyline.

They don't care to write for the female characters.  They are infatuated by the men, from Barry to Cisco to Joe who is always referred to as Barry's father and it never ceases to annoy me.

 

 

She got to to talk about Ronnie often before he showed up that again. With Barry, with Cisco.

 

Yes.  About Ronnie with the other men, to Ronnie, grieving Ronnie.

 

Other than Caitlin getting the Ronnie arc last season (which was mostly about Ronnie), Caitlin and Patty are written in only in terms of what they can do -- a doctor and Joe's partner -- and Patty is Barry's love interest.  (Do we know anything about her at all other than she lost someone (male?) to the metahumans?)  It's Iris loss that it would take a lot more work to figure out ways to put a reporter into the story and they aren't willing to put in that work when they can have Cisco being puppy dog cute and naming everyone.  Just because Iris does research as a reporter doesn't mean she would have done any good in this episode.  A petroleum engineer and a grave digger both dig holes but that doesn't mean they're interchangeable.

 

When I look at The Flash, I'm glad for how the female characters of Arrow are treated. Even Thea, playing the third wheel in her arc last season after Oliver and Malcolm, gets treated much better than any female on The Flash.  The first metahuman to die was Plastique, the first female among half a dozen by then and who was someone trying to do good but got fridged for Barry.

Edited December 2, 2015 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

It's Iris loss that it would take a lot more work to figure out ways to put a reporter into the story and they aren't willing to put in that work when they can have Cisco being puppy dog cute and naming everyone.  Just because Iris does research as a reporter doesn't mean she would have done any good in this episode.  A petroleum engineer and a grave digger both dig holes but that doesn't mean they're interchangeable.

 

I'm now completely hung up on how much better the crossover would have been had they made Kendra a friend of Iris's rather than a forced love interest for Cisco.  He could have still even crushed on Iris's new friend (who just happened to be doing Iris's old job - right there a reason for Iris and Kendra to strike up a conversation) and gotten in his Vibes and insisted on coming along to "protect her" but it would have been comedic since yeah right.  Kendra and Iris could have been hanging out when VS shows up.  Iris could have been the one doing pep talks and sharing her understanding of how her world was ripped apart recently.  Iris NEEDS a friend.  Why couldn't they have just killed two birds with one stone, given Iris a valid reason to be a part of the crossover and give her a way to have had a POV on the show leading up to the crossover.   

Edited December 2, 2015 by BkWurm1