Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[bijoux]

For what it's worth, Arrow's Robert was either 49 or 59 when The Gambit was sabotaged.

Edited November 11, 2015 by bijoux

[kismet]

I'm sorry but I can't get the thought of BC/LL having an affair with E2 RQ now. With all the talk of LL needing a LI and now the big reveal of E2 GA. Plus the canon of comic BC liking older men & arrow's RQ liking younger women. It's just all fitting into that pervy incestual banging that floats some boats in some of the writers rooms. I just see so much potential of soap operatic drama for better or for worse. I think personally I would be a little creeped out. But bonus for LL she might finally get to be a Queen. And bonus for us maybe she'll go hang out in E2 to see where relationship goes. I'd laugh so hard if she gave him a picture to remember her by too. :)

Sorry but the idea has been pestering my brain since last night.

Edited November 11, 2015 by kismet

[tv echo]

The EPs had said that they would explain why Oliver and Barry are not part of the team on LoT.  Maybe it'll have something to do with the fact that they're not the GA and Flash in other universes? 

Edited November 11, 2015 by tv echo

[Starfish35]

I just figured it was because they had their own threats to deal with - Zoom for Barry and DD for Oliver.

[apinknightmare]

Wasn't there an interview or something about them leaving and forming a team because they couldn't stay? Like maybe everyone in LoT gets caught up in something illegal, or...I don't know. 

Edited November 11, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Whatever the reason, it will be something eye-rolling, like Nyssa putting Tide in the Lazarus Pit so the fans can't make them bring back Moira or Tommy.  And while there are some good fic about there about Tommy coming back as a member of the LoA, how awesome would it be to see Moira that feral?

 

 

umm I actually know several 50+ people, and at least two of them took on martial arts after they turned 45!, one is really, and I mean Really! good. so yes i can buy someone over 50 being a good fighter.

I can see them being an acceptable fighter in martial arts.  But not getting punched out or or wounded. Healing takes much longer.

 

And eyesight and hearing begin to go in the 40s.  Night vision especially,

 

I think one of the writers came up with the idea, everyone thought it was so clever, and no one really thought it through.  Again, fans putting more thought into the show than the people paid to do it.

[KirkB]

If I were to hazard a guess, since time travel is involved, Rip Hunter may say something about Oliver and Barry being too important to the time stream to be gone for too long. Sara and Ray were dead and thought dead respectively, Cold and Heat are villains who aren't always going to be on the radar, and the Hawks, who aren't on anyone's radar yet, all of them can be yanked out of the time stream and run around doing stuff without making too many ripples. As comic book stories go it's a pretty good excuse.

Edited November 11, 2015 by KirkB

[Sakura12]

Barry and Oliver can't go because they are needed in their respective cities with their current threats Zoom and DD. Everyone on Team Legend are not tied down to anything they are free to travel through time to stop a past/future threat. 

[dtissagirl]

Honest question: the time travel will actually mean they're gone in present time? Because they could, you know, come back to the present one second after they left and all.

[bettername2come]

Could Robert be younger in Earth 2? I mean ages change between versions of comics all the time. I did like how in this version, he still goes by the Hood. 

[calliope1975]

Could Robert be younger in Earth 2? I mean ages change between versions of comics all the time. I did like how in this version, he still goes by the Hood. 

 

You know, I hadn't thought of that. It's an AU; anything's possible. If 30 yr old Robert took 10 yr old Oliver on a boat trip or whatever age variation. It could work. 

 

It does seem, so far, that E2 Flash counterparts have all been the same age as E1. I'd love to see a variation on that.

Edited November 11, 2015 by calliope1975

[Morrigan2575]

It's an AU, anything is possible, time could run differently so they're younger. Or E2 Robert Queen could have been a super fit, martial artist with a penchant for Bows/Arrow from a super young age.

These shows have time travel, dimension jumping a freaking telepathic evil gorilla, super soldiers, a magic life/body reviving hot tub, a 200 year old dude that can teleport etc.

Is a 50 year old dude becoming the Hood/Arrow really that much of a willing suspension of disbelief breaker? I drew the line at the stupid gorilla (sorry Grodd) but RQ being the Arrow doesn't exactly phase me.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[AyChihuahua]

What we've seen of E-2 indicates doubles are the same age.  They should have made Sara the Arrow/Hood.  It was probably an Easter Egg homage to the Thomas Wayne thing.  I think it's stupid, but it's not going to go anywhere, and I still really don't care about The Flash (as evidenced by the fact that I didn't hear the part about Robert being unmasked as the Arrow bc I watch while doing other things), so I'll just let it go.

 

I do love the new cranky Wells and still love Cisco, though.  I think Jay Garrick is a black hole of anti-charisma and whitebread boredom who's dragging down the show and really dragging down Caitlin, and I miss Victor Garber.  Oh, and I am totally uninterested in Iris, although I love Candice Patton, and I think Joe's a real turd.  I've hated Barry since he risked destroying the universe.  Still love GG.  Basically I love most of the actors except Iris's mother and the Jay Garrick actor, but I hate the storylines and think the show is incredibly repetitive.

 

Is a 50 year old dude becoming the Hood/Arrow really that much of a willing suspension of disbelief breaker? I drew the line at the stupid gorilla (sorry Grodd) but RQ being the Arrow doesn't exactly phase me.

For me, it's much more difficult to suspend disbelief on mundane real life things.  Grodd is no problem for me, metahumans are no problem.  But for example a trip from the west coast of the US to the Hindu Kush taking about an hour without any indication of superhuman or supertech shenanigans is ridiculous.  So yeah, for me a regular human 55-year-old jumping off buildings is totally absurd in a way that Grodd is not.  I'll suspend disbelief for overtly fictional stuff, but not for stuff that is, by all indications, totally real life normal.

Edited November 11, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

That little Robert tidbit just made me aware of how differently I watch Flash and Arrow. I heard the name "Robert Queen" and went "aww, how cute, they're doing a little Flashpoint comics homage there", and didn't think of any other implications -- because I read Flashpoint, and yup, Thomas Wayne was an old dude all bruised and battered being Batman in that book.

 

So I guess I AM a comic book fanboy while watching Flash? I'm okay with that.

[Carrie Ann]

Meanwhile, I've thoroughly enjoyed The Flash two weeks in a row now! I think maybe I just finally found my level with the show. The elements I don't like are probably never going to get better (Caitlin, the marginalization of Iris, the lack of romantic chemistry between anyone, the lack of emotional honesty, the being mean to OQ, the glorification of Barry above all others) and I'm just over hoping they might. Now I can just enjoy the things I do like, which is mostly the general charm of the actors and dialogue. I really adore Carlos Valdes, Tom Cavanaugh, and Grant Gustin, and love JLM and CP too (it's just sometimes harder to love them on the show because of my issues with their characters).

Edited November 11, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Morrigan2575]

That little Robert tidbit just made me aware of how differently I watch Flash and Arrow. I heard the name "Robert Queen" and went "aww, how cute, they're doing a little Flashpoint comics homage there", and didn't think of any other implications -- because I read Flashpoint, and yup, Thomas Wayne was an old dude all bruised and battered being Batman in that book.

So I guess I AM a comic book fanboy while watching Flash? I'm okay with that.

I didn't watch just heard about it but rolled my eyes and said "of course they had to do another Batman ripoff". That's about the extent of my caring.

About 5 minutes later I said, "good idea, this way they can bring OQ and RQ together for some sweeps episode because you KNOW Oliver still has daddy issues".

Edited November 11, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[statsgirl]

But it would be a different Robert Queen.  And if he is younger, then Oliver wouldn't be able to talk about any of his issues, like the lazy parenting and maybe not the cheating on Moira.

 

I wish they had made Sara the Arrow rather than Robert. She was on the boat, she could have been the one to end up on the island.  She's  enough to Arrow for years and like Oliver, she needed to grow up emotionally.

.

For me, it's much more difficult to suspend disbelief on mundane real life things.  Grodd is no problem for me, metahumans are no problem.  But for example a trip from the west coast of the US to the Hindu Kush taking about an hour without any indication of superhuman or supertech shenanigans is ridiculous.  So yeah, for me a regular human 55-year-old jumping off buildings is totally absurd in a way that Grodd is not.  I'll suspend disbelief for overtly fictional stuff, but not for stuff that is, by all indications, totally real life normal.

Same here.  I can hand wave the Lazarus Pit and the time travel but what I hate is Joe lying to Iris and everyone excusing Barry everything.

 

I like Jesse Martin and I even contributed to his film but I can't stand Joe West any more.

[AyChihuahua]

Joe West is absolutely terrible.  I was more or less neutral on the not-telling-Iris thing, because it's such a comic book trope not to tell people, even though it was particularly dumb because keeping it secret put Iris in more danger, but whatevs.  But when he told Eddie that Eddie could have a say in Iris's life when he married her, i.e., handing ownership from father to husband, I was done with him.  Then it turns out he'd told Iris for at least 15 years that her mother was dead?  I mean holy shit that is awful.  Iris's immediate forgiveness was utterly ridiculous. 

[statsgirl]

Iris telling her mother to keep away from Joe as she dies and don't tell him he may have a son for the past 15 years is almost as bad.  There's a faulty gene in the West family.

[AyChihuahua]

Iris telling her mother to keep away from Joe as she dies and don't tell him he may have a son for the past 15 years is almost as bad.  There's a faulty gene in the West family.

Yeah, especially bc the kid could use a father/sister or father-figure/half-sister when his ex-druggie mom dies.  (I'm guessing the kid is not Joe's, but Iris doesn't know, and the kid could use their support regardless of who his daddy is.)

[nksarmi]

I didn't mind Joe's excuse for not telling Iris until he told Eddie because crap if it's a secret identify - keep it a freaking secret identify.  Then the subsequent problems it was causing between Eddie and Iris and neither Joe nor Barry were stepping up to let him off the hook.  I mean Iris moved out from the place she shared with Eddie over her feeling like he was keeping something from her.  At some point in all of that, Barry really should have told her the truth because it felt like he was hoping she would break up with Eddie over it.  I don't think that's what the writers were going for, but it made Barry look really bad.

 

Of course, in the end, I'm glad that no one told Iris and that she figured it out on her own (really wish Laurel had been that smart).

 

When it comes to Joe keeping the mom secret from Iris - I understand why he didn't it when she was little.  A little girl doesn't need to be made to feel abandoned by her mother.  But once Iris was old enough to be able to handle the truth, he should have come clean about that.  I suspect she forgave him because of her initial rage of learning that he mother did in fact abandon her.  But maybe that's why she doesn't feel guilty keeping the truth about the son from her dad - she figures if he can keep secrets from her for her "own good" - she can do that same for him. 

 

And I don't blame Iris for keeping that secret because it probably will be hard on Joe if the boy is his son and hell, why in the world would the mother keep the boy from Joe to begin with?  Maybe Iris wants to figure it all out first before dropping that bombshell on Joe - couldn't blame her if she wanted more answers before she hits him with that.

[Starfish35]

About Iris's brother:

There is an interview out there (Variety, I think, if someone wanted to look for it) where AK confirms that he is Wally West and Joe's son.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Starfish35

[kismet]

Iris telling her mother to keep away from Joe as she dies and don't tell him he may have a son for the past 15 years is almost as bad. There's a faulty gene in the West family.

It looks like the West family came down with the Lance epidemic. :)

[AyChihuahua]

About Iris's brother:

There is an interview out there (Variety, I think, if someone wanted to look for it) where AK confirms that he is Wally West and Joe's son.

Good lord.  

[hogwash]

So Wally is another Sara Lance situation?

The mom reveal made Joe seem batshit insane to me. After the lengths he went to keeping the "don't tell Iris" bullshit going in S01, it left such a bad taste in my mouth. It's gross and makes the "don't tell Iris" bullshit seem worse in hindsight.

 

Watching Patty feels like I'm watching repurposed Felicity/Barry plans and makes me wish they made Iris a cop. It's McKenna all over again.

 

Speaking of Iris, she seems to be getting the S02!Laurel (sidelined and separated from the lead/2nd lead position) treatment without the dreck and I don't get why? We gone over ad nauseam about how the show shifted its trajectory cause Laurel/Oliver bombed horribly. But I didn't get the impression anything like that happened with Iris in S01? Aside from Eddie ripping off Tommy's sacrifice...

 

[BkWurm1]

Wally West though is comic canon as side kick to the Flash so I don't think
there would be conflict.

 

Watching Patty feels like I'm watching repurposed Felicity/Barry plans and makes me wish they made Iris a cop. It's McKenna all over again.

 

I am enjoying Patty though I don't get the Felicity vibe from her apart from being upbeat.  Again though, Patty has the benefit of being comic canon though that also means expectations which I think are the death of good storytelling (at least when expectations turn into obligations)

 

Speaking of Iris, she seems to be getting the S02!Laurel (sidelined and separated from the lead/2nd lead position) treatment without the dreck and I don't get why?

 

I don't think they are trying to separate her, it's just happening since she doesn't have a natural storyline day to day with the team.  Barry can't date her because she has to be shown taking the proper time to grieve so for some reason they aren't even letting them get closer.  She has been helping with Star Labs stuff a lot but it's all very casual and unofficial. The only storylines that are her own are meeting her mom and now hiding a secret from her dad.  We see her at work but I think that was mostly just setting the use of Linda Park (who is now shipped off so done with that) 

 

Iris will probably get a more cohesive storyline after LoT is launched. 

[AyChihuahua]

I agree that Iris is basically the Laurel of the story, in that they screwed up their backstory, the actors don't have great sexual/romantic chemistry (perfectly fine friend chemistry, though), and she has no real place in the show right now.  So I have no particular interest in Iris, but I still like her, because I think Candice Patton is gorgeous and an excellent actress, and projects warmth.  

[BkWurm1]

My favorite Iris moment of the season was when she was trapped in a high rise with the bad guys after her and she called Barry for help and his solution was for her to leap through a window some twenty stories from the ground.   He catches her and she's just gleeful and joyous about the whole thing.  And he didn't get mad at all either or call her out on being too reckless.  That was a dynamic I could get behind. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Guest]

I watch the Flash on and off but Iris is definitely nothing like Laurel. I never saw Laurel as sidelined. She had her own story going on every season. Some episodes of Flash last season, Iris featured for like a couple of minutes. But even with what little they give her CP makes her scenes work. She's lovely.

 

I agree I don't see any romantic chemistry with Barry/Iris yet but then I don't think Barry has romantic chemistry with anyone. He still looks like he's 14.

[AyChihuahua]

I watch the Flash on and off but Iris is definitely nothing like Laurel. I never saw Laurel as sidelined. She had her own story going on every season. Some episodes of Flash last season, Iris featured for like a couple of minutes. But even with what little they give her CP makes her scenes work. She's lovely.

I mean more that she's in a similar position, that their original plan isn't quite working, and yeah, she's not in a lot of episodes and they don't seem to know what to do with her.  I think CP is fantastic, so believe me, I am not remotely blaming her.  

[Starfish35]

So I've been thinking about this the last couple of days while the conversation's been going on here, so here's my two cents. And this is just my opinion. :)

I don't actually think the LoT setup has made much difference to The Flash at all this season. The Flash is having some problems, but I think they're more problems that already existed (the treatment of Iris) and problems they've created by this whole Earth-2/Zoom plot line, that don't have anything to do with LoT. Jay has been a disappointment, but he would have been with or without LoT. The whole Earth-2 villain of the week thing they had going on until last still would have been an issue with or without LoT. Patty still would be there with or without LoT (and I say that as someone who is enjoying Patty and Barry/Patty).

They've had two LoT setup episodes, but one was Captain Cold and I'd be willing to bet money that we still would have had a Captain Cold episode in the first half with or without LoT. The episode just might have ended a little differently. Same for Firestorm. I think we still would have had a Firestorm episode with or without LoT. It just probably wouldn't have involved getting the new guy (I say that because I suspect the reason for the switch is that Robbie Amell turned down being a regular on LoT, but of course I don't know that for a fact). Hawkgirl has just had a few minutes of screentime. And I don't think anything is going to happen next week. So, other than the crossover, I don't think much would have changed about the way the first half of The Flash has played out.

Arrow is more complicated. I'm saying this having not seen the episode that's airing as I type. The two people that needed to be dealt with on Arrow are Ray and Sara (I don't think anyone else is going to show up until the crossover). What would have happened with Ray this season if LoT hadn't become a thing? I really don't know. Would he just have left town never to be seen again? Maybe. Maybe he would have gotten his shrinking ability earlier in last season and then have left town after signing the company over to Felicity. Or maybe everything would have play out like it currently is, but then Ray would just leave town instead of joining the Legends team. Or maybe some other scenario. Or maybe he'd be a series regular this year. Lol.

We've spent far more time on Sara, and I think that's the biggest problem. What would have happened without LoT? Well obviously Sara wouldn't have been resurrected. What would Laurel's story be this season without Sara? Would she have one? Would it have been now, or buried after the winter break like the last two years? I don't know the answers to those questions, but I wonder if Sara's resurrection would have been better received if the story hadn't been Laurel-focused and (as usual with Laurel storylines) so horribly horribly handled. I don't know.

[hogwash]

I watch the Flash on and off but Iris is definitely nothing like Laurel. I never saw Laurel as sidelined. She had her own story going on every season. Some episodes of Flash last season, Iris featured for like a couple of minutes. But even with what little they give her CP makes her scenes work. She's lovely.

 

Iris definitely has it worse than Laurel did in S02. Laurel got her own little world at least. But it was telling that after the constant/protracted Laurel/Oliver in S01 (choosing her over Diggle/Deadshot, etc.), they ended things in a one-off conversation at some random event in the S02 premiere. Definitely one of the first signs of the shift in show. Poor Tommy...

 

There's leeway for that kind of thing with Laurel/Oliver's toxic backstory. But letting Iris in on the secret and stepping away from Barry's weirdly desperate/borderline obsessive crush on her, I expected them to show the BFFs they went on about in S01. Instead, Barry just seems unconcerned and Iris isn't going out her way either. With a show like Flash (All Barry! All the Time!), that means she's weirdly excluded. 

[statsgirl]

I think Iris' biggest problem in terms of the story is that she doesn't have a role on Team Flash. She's not a scientist like Caitlin or Cisco or Wells, she's not a cop like Joe or Patty, and she's Barry's crush rather than love interest..  Unless they specifically write her into the A story, there's nothing for her to do.

 

When they decided to make her a reporter rather than a psychology grad student as the casting call had, they wrote themselves into a hole.  A clinical psychologist would have had a field day with all the metas.

Edited November 12, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

Or maybe everything would have play out like it currently is, but then Ray would just leave town instead of joining the Legends team. Or maybe some other scenario. Or maybe he'd be a series regular this year. Lol.

How dare you.  HOW DARE YOU?!?!

Edited November 12, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Starfish35]

*coughs* Yes, well. Oh, look at the time...... *scurries away*

[looptab]

Is Sara going to appear on The Flash before the crossover? 

[Velocity23]

I find it hilarious that Flash part of crossover takes part in Star City, and the Arrow part in Central City.

[BkWurm1]

So a thought about Flash that ties in to Robert Queen being unmasked as the Arrow on E2. What if Flash's big bad Zoom was Barry's dad?

[FurryFury]

I'm almost sure about that. So they've mention Robert to parallel Oliver/Robert to Barry/Henry.

[quarks]

Is Sara going to appear on The Flash before the crossover? 

 

That was my thought - there's one more Flash episode before the crossover where she can pop up, however briefly, and that way, pretty much all of the Legends characters except, apparently, Rip Hunter, get to have at least one appearance outside the crossover episodes on the much more popular Flash.

 

Otherwise, I think it would have made more sense to keep Sara on for at least one more Arrow episode, if only to have a scene between Thea and Sara With a Soul, Of Sorts, regarding the slight issue that Thea murdered Sara.

[nksarmi]

So Sara is going over to Flash next week and then she will be back for the two-part cross over the week after that?  Are they bringing in Rip Hunter for the cross over or will that all come when they launch Legends next year?

[KirkB]

I'm actually a bit surprised they haven't stuck Hunter in the background of a scene or two on either show. Arthur Darvill would not necessarily stick out in a crowd but I could see Hunter popping in to watch some of this stuff and get a look at some of the people he's thinking about recruiting. 

[looptab]

That was my thought - there's one more Flash episode before the crossover where she can pop up, however briefly, and that way, pretty much all of the Legends characters except, apparently, Rip Hunter, get to have at least one appearance outside the crossover episodes on the much more popular Flash.

 

Otherwise, I think it would have made more sense to keep Sara on for at least one more Arrow episode, if only to have a scene between Thea and Sara With a Soul, Of Sorts, regarding the slight issue that Thea murdered Sara.

It was your post in the episode thread that made me ask :) I'm not following the LoT news, so I was wondering if it was speculation or confirmed, and if it is indeed confirmed, my next question would be, why do the Arrow people of loT show up on Flash and not viceversa? But you answered that already (ratings! silly me).

[Morrigan2575]

So Sara is going over to Flash next week and then she will be back for the two-part cross over the week after that?  Are they bringing in Rip Hunter for the cross over or will that all come when they launch Legends next year?

I don't know if she's in 207 since that's all Grodd (looks like) and she wasn't included in the Episode description so it's hard to tell.  She might show up in 208?  We haven't seen the episode description for that, so she could be a Guest Star in 208 and 408?

[nksarmi]

I don't know if she's in 207 since that's all Grodd (looks like) and she wasn't included in the Episode description so it's hard to tell.  She might show up in 208?  We haven't seen the episode description for that, so she could be a Guest Star in 208 and 408?

With that goodbye scene, I was prepared to not see her again until she gets recruited - bonus points if she meditating somewhere with Katana.  But people make it sound like we might actually see her on Flash running into Hawkgirl or something.

[Starfish35]

I think that's just speculation, since she's going to Central City to see her mother.

[Sakura12]

She could show up at the very end of 2x07. It is weird that we haven't seen any pictures of Sara or White Canary in the cross over BTS pics. Even the latest one didn't show her. 

 

I was surprised that they didn't have Rip Hunter approach Sara and made that the reason she's leaving. She could've used the same excuse for Laurel and Thea but we'd know that she was leaving with Rip Hunter. 

 

Yeah, the spec started because Sara said she was going to Central City. If she's there it would make sense for her run into the Flash crew especially now with Barry being out of commission. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by Sakura12

[tarotx]

They mentioned Sara going to central city-Not just going to visit her mom who it doesn't matter where she lives. To me that peaked my thinking that Sara will show up on The Flash. Though maybe just for coffee? Right now the Only LOT members that know each other are Jax&Stein and Cold&Heat?

[tv echo]

I don't recall, but did Barry & gang ever meet Sara?  Would they even recognize her?  Maybe she'll turn up and they'll just think she's the BC from an alternate universe. (And wouldn't that be a meta comment if that happened?)

Edited November 12, 2015 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

Or they could just go with Sara saying that the Green Arrow said she should look them up to see if they can help her with her new issues. They do know who The Canary is, they think she's dead. Felicity asked them to analyze the blood they found so they can find The Canary's killer.