Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Sakura12]

Joe's a good father to Barry and a 1800's patriarch father to Iris when he remembers her. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I like Iris except when she's being a 50's TV housewife and these days that's all she is.  I like Caitlin when she's being the smart scientist that she is, and not when she's a wimminz* helpless because she's a meta while the men handle it just fine. Looking at the initial Barry episodes and even season 1 and how much I liked Grant's portrayal makes me sad at how much I don't like Barry any more. I still like Wells but Cisco has been ruined, Ralph is the worst of white male privilege writing and Joe is the most biased "good" father on TV.

The Flash is geared towards 8 year old boys.  If they want me back, don't replace Iris, replace the writers room.

*General Hospital reference for @GHScorpiosRule

I got the reference!

My reaction: 

Because it's true.

[KenyaJ]

10 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

a wimminz* 

*General Hospital reference for @GHScorpiosRule

I just choked from laughter. From everything I've seen and read, The Flash is pretty dreadful when it comes to writing women, but thank god it's not General Hospital bad. I'm forever grateful that watching GH in my late teens and 20s (the 90s and 2000s) didn't scar me for life.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, KenyaJ said:

I just choked from laughter. From everything I've seen and read, The Flash is pretty dreadful when it comes to writing women, but thank god it's not General Hospital bad. I'm forever grateful that watching GH in my late teens and 20s (the 90s and 2000s) didn't scar me for life.

It didn't get reaallllllly bad until the mid 2000s. The '90s were so, so, so, so, goooood.

[Morrigan2575]

With AJK gone there's a possibility that very late S4 or starting in S5 you could see a change in how Iris is handled. Of course that assumes AJK was the problem. 

However, you never know with new show runners, they could make the argument that we need a "shake up" and kill Iris off!  Not saying that will happen just saying you never know ?

[Trini]

3 hours ago, WindofChange said:

If only the writers didn't make Iris tell Barry that he's like her brother in the series premiere... They could've avoided having people think this by removing that statement and all the dialogue that point to this... but alas...... 

It's amazing how Iris' very next line is always ignored when this argument comes up. Again.

 

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

If they really want to make people forget that Barry and Iris are not like brother and sister, then they should've stopped the "our father" mentions about Joe or having Joe saying he raised both of them and Barry is like a son to him. Which if Barry is like a son to him, how is Barry not like a brother to Iris?

ETA: And didn't Wally call Barry his brother when he lost his memory causing Barry to look at his skin color. 

How is Iris the only one exempt from the sibling/family consideration with Barry?

The show has repeatedly stated/shown that Barry was in love with Iris, and that Barry & Iris related to each other as friends before, and during and after he moved in with the Wests. Since Barry is not biologically related to the Wests, his relationships with them are not defined by how the Wests are related to each other, but how each family member relates to him.

But I don't think there's anything I can say to change anyone's mind if they want to keep seeing this as a sibling relationship:

 

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I explained badly. The Flash writers don't care about Iris but have her there because she's comic canon. So now that she's reached her destiny of Barry's girlfriend/wife that's all she's going to do....

I like Iris except when she's being a 50's TV housewife and these days that's all she is. ...

?? I don't know of any '50s TV housewives' running superhero teams and saving the day, in the science and tech facilities they half-own.

[WindofChange]

3 minutes ago, Trini said:

It's amazing how Iris' very next line is always ignored when this argument comes up. Again.

 

No I know it. She said he's like her brother but not really... Which is still skeevy. Sorry but her saying that was weird regardless of what she said afterwards. *shrugs*

Quote

 

Also no offense but these look extremely awkward. Like cousins kissing so... lol

Edited February 23, 2018 by WindofChange

[statsgirl]

34 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

With AJK gone there's a possibility that very late S4 or starting in S5 you could see a change in how Iris is handled. Of course that assumes AJK was the problem.

It seemed to me that that Helbings were just as bad at disregarding female characters as AJK because The Flash is much worse in its treatment of women than Supergirl and AJK was the EP on Supergirl too.  I'm not holding my breath.

41 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

It didn't get reaallllllly bad until the mid 2000s. The '90s were so, so, so, so, goooood.

Ugh, please don't remind me. When I think of 90s Anna and Anna now...

[Featherhat]

I just wish Joe hadn't felt the need to remind everyone at the rehearsal dinner that he was father of the bride and groom and how awesome that was. 

[apinknightmare]

Whatever VC Andrews-loving hack decided that it was a good idea to have a future love interest even mutter the words "even though we pretty much grew up in the same house together, and we're kind of like brother and sister", regardless of what mess came after it, is a huge bonehead and should no longer be employed as a writer (unless, of course, they are ghostwriting for VC Andrews, in which case that kind of thing is a prerequisite for the job). 

Edited February 23, 2018 by apinknightmare

[WindofChange]

Just now, Featherhat said:

I just wish Joe hadn't felt the need to remind everyone at the rehearsal dinner that he was father of the bride and groom and how awesome that was. 

That's the thing. The show constantly reminds us of this weird aspect of their relationship. It's WEIRD. They should just stop it instead of adding more fuel to the flame...

[statsgirl]

25 minutes ago, Trini said:

?? I don't know of any '50s TV housewives' running superhero teams and saving the day, in the science and tech facilities they half-own.

Was it left to her, or does she half-own it because she's married to Barry? Unlike Felicity or Alex at the DEO, iris wouldn't be anywhere near a science and tech facility if she weren't with Barry. Felicity was left Palmer Tech but before that she was a VP of technology there and Palmer sought her out because she was so good at her job, independent of Oliver.

The question of whether Iris has earned running the team or just awkwardly placed there has been discussed above. But even if she has earned the position over Wells or Cisco, it's the same problem that she wouldn't be in it without her association to Barry.   She doesn't go to work any more, she just helps Barry. And while we don't know if Felicity has any female friends apart from Lyla, Thea or Sara, she's only lived in Starling City for less than a decade.  Iris grew up in Central City, she's lived there her entire life. How can Felicity be the only one to think of organizing a bachelor party for her, and only Caitlin and Cecile to attend?  It's like Iris' life apart from Barry is a blank slate. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by statsgirl

[Sakura12]

10 year old Barry had a crush on Iris before he moved in the West's, then he grew up as her foster brother. And as we said they constantly remind the us that Barry and Iris were raised by Joe as his kids. So he most likely treated them like siblings (where he probably treated Barry better than poor Iris because she wasn't a boy). 

I will also have to agree those kisses look awkward and don't really make me unsee the sibling beginning of their relationship. They really should not have gone in that direction especially if they were going to give Barry a billion and one father figures anyway.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Sakura12

[thegirlsleuth]

I feel like Flash course-corrected a lot of the mistakes they made with Arrow, but keeping a sibling connection with the lead romantic couple remained a mistake. Having Oliver sleep with Laurel's sister made the Oliver/Laurel relationship forever unpalatable to a lot of viewers, and while looping Iris into the secret sooner was an improvement, they continue to reinforce how Joe considers Barry his son.  Is the sibling obsession a Berlanti thing or a Kriesberg thing?  

In both cases the comic origin stories are so much better.  It would have been interesting to have Iris know Barry was the Flash before he told her on their wedding night, at which point she could one up him and let him know she was from the 29th century.

[GHScorpiosRule]

30 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Ugh, please don't remind me. When I think of 90s Anna and Anna now...

I KNOW!!!! And I know you know how I feel about what they've done to Anna!Fucking!Devane! It's gross.

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I feel like Flash course-corrected a lot of the mistakes they made with Arrow, but keeping a sibling connection with the lead romantic couple remained a mistake.

Yeah. I know that the "we're kind of like brother and sister" line was supposed to indicate how very much Iris didn't think of Barry as a love interest back then. And I think it's a really great way of expressing that there's zero chance there...for people you don't ever plan on getting together. Since they clearly did plan on getting Iris and Barry together eventually, I think the best course of action would've just been having her reiterate that he's her best friend and that she wants him to talk to her about the women he's interested in because that's what friends do! It's just as much of a blow for Barry, without the weird subtext for people who might be creeped out by the brother/sister comment coupled with the fact that they grew up together in the same house.

[WindofChange]

34 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I feel like Flash course-corrected a lot of the mistakes they made with Arrow, but keeping a sibling connection with the lead romantic couple remained a mistake.

I read this comment that is pretty succinct: "once one thinks incest, one cannot simply unthink incest." 

This is why the biggest mistake they made was make Iris say that one line regardless of what she followed it up with. Once the thought of incest was put in people's minds, then that thought couldn't have been changed or 'fixed'. This isn't the fault of anyone but the writers. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by WindofChange

[KenyaJ]

Those kissing gifs hurt me in my soul, especially that first one. What is even happening there?

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

It didn't get reaallllllly bad until the mid 2000s. The '90s were so, so, so, so, goooood.

That's true. But the '90s started the Sonny era, and I blame him most for GH's wimminz problem.

[BkWurm1]

26 minutes ago, WindofChange said:

I read this comment that is pretty succinct... "once one thinks incest, one cannot simply unthink incest." - and that's why the biggest mistake they made was make Iris say that one line regardless of what she followed it up with. Once the thought of incest was put in people's minds, then that thought couldn't have been changed or 'fixed'.

 

Yeah.  This is me.  I very well know all the other stuff they've said and explained and I do accept it as true and even remember in the very early days of the series arguing those points, but dammit, Iris's introduction is done by planting the idea in everyone's mind that she thinks of Barry like her brother even if they technically are not really siblings.  WHY?!! WHY!?  Nobody forced them to do it just like nobody forced the Arrow writers to have Oliver cheat on Laurel with her freaking SISTER!!! 

I don't want to think of Iris and Barry as brother and sister but they keep reminding me of it over and over and over.  I'm actively dreading when Iris gets pregnant because I just know Joe will say something creepy about being father to both parents that will make me gag.  

Edited February 23, 2018 by BkWurm1

[Mary0360]

1 minute ago, KenyaJ said:

Those kissing gifs hurt me in my soul, especially that first one. What is even happening there?

Kissing without opening your mouth. 

[WindofChange]

3 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

Those kissing gifs hurt me in my soul, especially that first one. What is even happening there?

It literally looks as awkard as 2 cousins being forced to kiss....It's just bad.

[Cleanqueen]

The Flash writers are digging the hole deeper by having the meta swap their DNA's so Iris can get Barry's powers-I don't even know how that is possible, but are you telling me these writers couldn't come up with a more interesting way to have her be a hero and save day while Barry stays back and stays on comms? I mean, it's icky and I'll laugh forever if the episode ends iwth them making out or kissing in bed because it's like they're having sex with themselves since they swapped DNA. LMAO.

Those gifs above prove how badly Grant kisses. 

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

WHY?!! WHY!?  Nobody forced them to do it just like nobody forced the Arrow writers to have Oliver cheat on Laurel with her freaking SISTER!!! 

::whispers:: and had Diggle lusting after his brother's wife

[Trini]

47 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Was it left to her, or does she half-own it because she's married to Barry? Unlike Felicity or Alex at the DEO, iris wouldn't be anywhere near a science and tech facility if she weren't with Barry. Felicity was left Palmer Tech but before that she was a VP of technology there and Palmer sought her out because she was so good at her job, independent of Oliver.

Iris story doesn't need to be the same as Felicity's. But they are both where they are because of their relationship to their current significant others, who are the leads, because it's not their shows.

 

56 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

I just wish Joe hadn't felt the need to remind everyone at the rehearsal dinner that he was father of the bride and groom and how awesome that was. 

I like that this is the one show that has a loving relationship between a father-in-law and son-in-law.
 

5 minutes ago, WindofChange said:

I read this comment that is pretty succinct... "once one thinks incest, one cannot simply unthink incest." - and that's why the biggest mistake they made was make Iris say that one line regardless of what she followed it up with. Once the thought of incest was put in people's minds, then that thought can't be changed or 'fixed'.

Like I said. People see what they want. Even though that's not even their first scene, and they state that they are 'best friends' before any brother/sister talk.

[WindofChange]

Just now, Trini said:

Like I said. People see what they want. Even though that's not even their first scene, and they state that they are 'best friends' before any brother/sister talk.

It's not about first impressions and nowhere have I stated that it is. It's about once the thought of incest is put in people's minds it's hard to take it out and that's what they did with Barry/Iris which is why you still see 'incest' comments from time to time regarding Westallen.

[KenyaJ]

2 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

Kissing without opening your mouth. 

Plus their mouths are barely even touching. It looks like Candace and Grant are trying to make it look like they're kissing while actively avoiding touching lips, until oops, Grant accidentally makes contact. Honestly, after those gifs, I think they're better off just pecking each other. 

[Trini]

12 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

... I very well know all the other stuff they've said and explained and I do accept it as true and even remember in the very early days of the series arguing those points, but dammit, Iris's introduction is done by planting the idea in everyone's mind that she thinks of Barry like her brother even if they technically are not really siblings.  WHY?!! WHY!?...

Well, in some minds. But the show did have to acknowledge that they grew up in the same household for a time, so they decided to just do it right away.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Trini

[BkWurm1]

3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

::whispers:: and had Diggle lusting after his brother's wife

At least he thought his brother was dead.  I didn't find that as problematic.  It's all about timing.  I actually didn't have huge issues with Oliver dating Sara in season two either.  

[lemotomato]

19 minutes ago, Trini said:

Iris story doesn't need to be the same as Felicity's. But they are both where they are because of their relationship to their current significant others, who are the leads, because it's not their shows.

Felicity was a part of Team Arrow long before she dated Oliver. (Technically, they weren't even friends when he asked her to join the team. He kept going to her for help because of her skills; she joined the team because she wanted to rescue Walter and make a difference in the city) so I don't understand this comparison.

Edited February 23, 2018 by lemotomato

[Mary0360]

6 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

Plus their mouths are barely even touching. It looks like Candace and Grant are trying to make it look like they're kissing while actively avoiding touching lips, until oops, Grant accidentally makes contact. Honestly, after those gifs, I think they're better off just pecking each other. 

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

At least he thought his brother was dead.  I didn't find that as problematic.  It's all about timing.  I actually didn't have huge issues with Oliver dating Sara in season two either.  

I didn't ultimately have a problem with it (just like I don't have a problem with Barry and Iris apart from the fact that Barry is involved), but it did skeeve me a bit to think how Digg and Sara must have had to actively avoid thinking about how they were doing the same thing with a person that their brother/sister had. Kind of like Oliver realizing his father had slept with Isabel too. Ick.

[Trini]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

With AJK gone there's a possibility that very late S4 or starting in S5 you could see a change in how Iris is handled. Of course that assumes AJK was the problem. 

However, you never know with new show runners, they could make the argument that we need a "shake up" and kill Iris off!  Not saying that will happen just saying you never know ?

[Mellowyellow]

I watched an interview and Margot Robbie said that when she started out she was told the rule to onscreen kissing is no tongue.

Is that true?

I'm sure I've seen either Oliver or Felicity (can't remember which one) sucking on the other's tongue in S4.

[WindofChange]

Also, I've seen this argument thrown around a lot but I just really hate the "Barry was 11 when he was taken in which is why he isn't REALLY a brother"! Because it also perpetuates the argument that blended families aren't families or that adoptive siblings aren't siblings... Which isn't true or right at all.

13 minutes ago, Trini said:

Unfortunately, KC said this at one point... So really I don't think this means much.

[Featherhat]

24 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

::whispers:: and had Diggle lusting after his brother's wife

Yeah, someone really had a hard on for incestuous love triangles then. I blame the Vampire Dairies popularity.

Especially if you include Oliver and Tommy as "brothers" (and unknowingly sharing a sister) in a triangle with Laurel. Thank god they course corrected both with Felicity and Lyla. Dig's storyline wasn't as gross as the Gambit shenanigans but still. I guess it was to provide maximum drama and offer understanding to Oliver.

Having seen the toxic back story on Arrow why did they then make WA's story so potentially creepy? At least they had a screen test that time.

[thegirlsleuth]

9 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I watched an interview and Margot Robbie said that when she started out she was told the rule to onscreen kissing is no tongue.

Is that true?

I'm sure I've seen either Oliver or Felicity (can't remember which one) sucking on the other's tongue in S4.

Off the top of my head there's 3x20, 5x20, and the yin yang kiss.  

[Mary0360]

8 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I watched an interview and Margot Robbie said that when she started out she was told the rule to onscreen kissing is no tongue.

Is that true?

I'm sure I've seen either Oliver or Felicity (can't remember which one) sucking on the other's tongue in S4.

Stephen and Emily have definitely used tongue in kissing scenes. I've seen other movies and tv shows where scene partners have used tongue so I think it's probably just a choice that's made based on what the actors are comfortable with.

[lemotomato]

38 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

Those kissing gifs hurt me in my soul, especially that first one. What is even happening there?

I was trying to figure out who else those reminded me of, and then I realized:

[KenyaJ]

11 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I watched an interview and Margot Robbie said that when she started out she was told the rule to onscreen kissing is no tongue.

Is that true?

I'm sure I've seen either Oliver or Felicity (can't remember which one) sucking on the other's tongue in S4.

That's pretty much the default. Tongue is opt-in, and I've seen some actors say that they've had conversations about whether they're comfortable actually kissing each other. Some are cool with it, some aren't. Obviously Stephen and Emily are in the former category, and I thank them every day for it. Having said that, I don't need actors to use tongue, but I do think they should be able to convincingly fake it so you don't see the physical space between their lips.

[SmallScreenDiva]

37 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

::whispers:: and had Diggle lusting after his brother's wife

I want support characters for Diggle but I was kinda happy when they moved Carly and AJ out after Season 1 because ... yeah. I'm just glad they never brought it up when Andy showed up.

[Starry]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

The show has repeatedly stated/shown that Barry was in love with Iris, and that Barry & Iris related to each other as friends before, and during and after he moved in with the Wests. Since Barry is not biologically related to the Wests, his relationships with them are not defined by how the Wests are related to each other, but how each family member relates to him.

This.

I wish some writers didn’t fan the flames but this is funny to me because if it weren’t for Iris and her friendship with Barry, he and Joe wouldn’t have those lovely father/son moments fandom exploits to bash Westallen.

Apart from all that, the relationship Barry has with both Joe and Wally gets placed above the one he has with Iris and I don’t understand why. If Joe says Barry is like a son, fandom takes his words at face value. Wally states Barry is his brother? Same. Barry doesn’t see Iris as a sister, nor does she see him as a brother? They are wrong! LOL. Despite not being related, despite having a friendship that predates Nora’s death and Henry’s incarceration, despite the fact that I don’t get how two preteens are suddenly supposed to see each other as siblings only because one gets taken in by the other’s parent, they MUST see each other as brother and sister because fandom says so. And because how Joe sees Barry is for some reason more important than what Barry and Iris feel for each other.

[WindofChange]

8 hours ago, Starry said:

P.s. Barry and Iris are not siblings, were never siblings and will never be siblings.

What I don't really understand is why people can't let others feel however they want to about this situation. This something that many people will have many varying opinions on considering this isn't black and white. 

Some people feel squicked out because they feel like the relationship is incestuous due to what they believe and the environment they were raised in. So what? It's not like people can convince them that it isn't incest because like I said, there is no wrong or right answer to this, it's just based on opinion. 

Blame the writers for putting this idea in people's heads, don't blame the audience for thinking it. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by WindofChange

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, Starry said:

Barry doesn’t see Iris as a sister, nor does she see him as a brother?

Iris definitely saw Barry as some kind of brother-like person considering her comment when we were first introduced to her. Her pointing out that they aren't biologically related doesn't negate the fact that she compared their relationship to that of a brother and sister to begin with. When that's your first introduction to a love interest, it sticks for some people. I don't understand why WestAllen shippers can't concede that it might be icky for some people, even though it doesn't bother them. There isn't anything wrong with that.

[tv echo]

Warning: spoilers...

Superhero Insider: Tala Ashe shines in Legends of Tomorrow time loop episode
CHANCELLOR AGARD February 23, 2018 AT 03:02 PM EST
http://ew.com/tv/2018/02/23/superhero-insider-tala-ashe-shines-in-legends-of-tomorrow-time-loop-episode/

Entertainment Weekly - Superhero Insider 2-23-18

Quote

This week Natalie Abrams and Kyle Anderson break down Black Panther, Legends of Tomorrow, and whats to come for the returning shows.

Edited February 23, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

DC’s 23 finest characters
Rob Leane   Feb. 23, 2018
http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/books-comics/dc-characters/55233/dc-s-23-finest-characters

Quote

And now, as these iconic characters prepare to take over The O2 in London for a massive exhibition, one nerdy journalist has been tasked with picking 23 of his favourites. ...
*  *  *
Black Canary has become a major part of the Arrow TV series over the last few years, with numerous characters (played by Caity Lotz, Katie Cassidy and Juliana Harkavy) taking up the mantle at different points. Black Canary has also showed up in numerous animated shows and the videogame Injustice 2.
*  *  *
A founder Justice League member who debuted in 1941, the Green Arrow (aka Oliver Queen) is one of DC’s oldest icons. It’s a testament to the character’s longevity that Stephen Amell is six seasons into playing him on The CW’s Arrow series, and shows no signs of slowing down. That’s not bad going for a hero whose only superpower is some top-notch archery skills.

The simplicity of the character makes him very easy to adapt. The one-armed, washed-up Oliver seen in The Dark Knight Returns comics springs instantly to mind, as does Amell’s ever-versatile iteration, and Justin Hartley’s teen-skewed Smallville version. The character has yet to grace a live-action movie, although David S. Goyer did attempt to get one made back in 2008 – it would’ve had a prison setting, and the title Green Arrow: Escape From Super Max.

23. Deathstroke
22. Black Canary
21. Martian Manhunter
20. The Riddler
19. John Constantine
18. Two-Face
17. Jason Todd
16. Bane
15. Aquaman
14. Green Arrow
13. Catwoman
12. Dick Grayson
11. Lex Luthor
10. Green Lantern
9. Barbara Gordon
8. General Zod
7. Supergirl
6. Harley Quinn
5. The Flash
4. Wonder Woman
3. Superman
2. Batman
1. The Joker

DC Exhibition: Dawn Of Super Heroes
https://www.theo2.co.uk/events/detail/dc-exhibition-dawn-of-super-heroes

Quote

Following a successful run in Paris, 2018 will see the London Premiere of ‘DC Exhibition: Dawn of Super Heroes’. Opening on 23 February at The O2, this one-of-a-kind exhibition celebrates DC’s rich history, unique mythology and iconic Super Heroes and Super Villains such as Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and The Joker.

‘DC Exhibition: Dawn of Super Heroes’ features more than 200 original comic pages, around 300 preparatory sketches and concept artworks for the cinema, together with 45 original costumes, models and props used in the iconic films.

Fans visiting ‘DC Exhibition: Dawn of Super Heroes’ will be able to walk through the exhibition, which runs in chronological order, with each room offering guests a behind-the-scenes look at the creation of the mythical DC Universe. Featuring artwork of Super Heroes and Super-Villains such as Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, The Joker, The Penguin and Mr. Freeze, the Exhibition will bring fans closer to the world’s most iconic characters.

Edited February 24, 2018 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I don't want to think of Iris and Barry as brother and sister but they keep reminding me of it over and over and over.  I'm actively dreading when Iris gets pregnant because I just know Joe will say something creepy about being father to both parents that will make me gag.  

I know! Why do they keep reminding me that Joe considers himself father to both Iris and Barry??? That toast he made at the wedding reception was so creepy.

54 minutes ago, Starry said:

if it weren’t for Iris and her friendship with Barry, he and Joe wouldn’t have those lovely father/son moments

If it weren't for the childhood friendship between Iris and Barry, Joe might not have brought Barry into his house and become a father to him. But you're arguing my case, that Iris and Barry were friends, which caused Joe to bring Barry into his house and put them into a sibling relationship leading Joe think of himself as both their father.

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Iris story doesn't need to be the same as Felicity's. But they are both where they are because of their relationship to their current significant others, who are the leads, because it's not their shows.

I like that this is the one show that has a loving relationship between a father-in-law and son-in-law.

Joe doesn't consider himself Barry's father-in-law, he considers himself Barry's father.  He was calling Barry "son" from the beginning, long before Barry married Iris. In fact in season 1, Joe refused to give Eddie his blessing to ask Iris to marry him because he wanted Iris to marry Barry because Barry loved her.  It still makes my blood boil. Iris was a grown-ass woman. Even if Joe thought she and Barry were perfect for each other, Iris should have been given the opportunity to decide for herself.  And at the end of the season, she did. Knowing that the paper from the future gave her byline as West-Allen, she still went against it and decided to marry Eddie.

If Iris and Barry weren't together right now, nothing about Joe's relationship with Barry would change, except maybe to become closer since he would probably consider Iris to have drawn away.

I'd also argue that Iris and Felicity are not where they are because of their SOs except in the sense that they are both working with their crime-fighting spouses.  Felicity is the former VP later CEO of Palmer Tech, a position she got entirely independent of her relationship with Oliver.  Outside of Team Arrow,  at the moment, she is also starting up Helix with Curtis, her own tech company.  Outside of Team Flash, Iris is Barry's wife.

No matter how angry I get at some of Arrow's storylines and the lack of ones for Diggle and Felicity, I'm always grateful that they treated Felicity right as in independent adult woman

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I didn't ultimately have a problem with it (just like I don't have a problem with Barry and Iris apart from the fact that Barry is involved), but it did skeeve me a bit to think how Digg and Sara must have had to actively avoid thinking about how they were doing the same thing with a person that their brother/sister had. Kind of like Oliver realizing his father had slept with Isabel too. Ick.

 

I found it really interesting at the time that the reason they had Dig and Carly break up was that in the end, he couldn't stop thinking about it.  It felt like a meta reference to some fan's complaints about the whole Oliver sleeping with the sister thing being a bridge too far to come back from.  

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

Well, in some minds. But the show did have to acknowledge that they grew up in the same household for a time, so they decided to just do it right away.

I'm not convinced that Barry/Iris was really the end game back then. I can't imagine why any writer introduced and reinforced that Barry and Iris were not!siblings growing up and then have Iris involved with Eddie.   That's almost impossible to walk back and will always leave me with ACK NO that's your not sibling. Don't do that.  I just can't forget it.

[Starry]

29 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

If it weren't for the childhood friendship between Iris and Barry, Joe might not have brought Barry into his house and become a father to him. But you're arguing my case, that Iris and Barry were friends, which caused Joe to bring Barry into his house and put them into a sibling relationship leading Joe think of himself as both their father.

I don't think growing up under the same roof equals being siblings. Barry wasn't raised thinking of Joe as a father. Joe gave him a home but it was Henry that he considered his dad. In the first season, when Barry is an adult living in his own apartment, he yells that Joe is not his father and only when that specific plot point is resolved the show starts emphasizing their bond. What we see now with Barry and Joe is a recent development. Yes, Joe thinks of himself as Barry's dad but the same Joe doesn't think of Iris as Barry's sister. Neither does anyone else, including Barry and Iris themselves.

Speaking of Eddie, he never thought Barry and Iris had a siblings-like relationship either. He was actually threatened by their closeness, something that he expresses to Barry in 1x06. And if Iris saw Barry as a brother, why didn't she tell her boyfriend "Ew. He is my brother!" when he suggested that Barry may have liked her in the first Christmas episode? She just tells him that he's being silly and that she and Barry are friends. That was the perfect opportunity to use the "He's my brother" card.

[apinknightmare]

If Iris didn't think of Barry as a brother, then she would've never mentioned to Barry that they were "like brother and sister." Clearly her feelings toward him changed - or I hope they did, otherwise...weird. Still doesn't change the fact that she felt that way when we met her - and a lot of people get hung up on their first impressions.