Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[BkWurm1]

Glee, from a narrative and continuity standpoint, fell apart after season two but once I figured out not to try and make sense of all the dropped plot lines and constant ping ponging of characterization, I was able to enjoy it to the end.  Like the music, liked the individual episodes.  It only went off the rails if you tried to make all the episodes together fit - which normally is a pretty low bar, lol - but it was something unique that I found ways to like in spite of the writing to plot problem it had.

The original cast was very engaging but Melissa Benoist shines much brighter as Kara than she ever did as Marley, same for GG so while I did enjoy Naya as Santana, I wouldn't be surprised if she was able to be bring a lot more to another role given the chance.   

[tv echo]

Stars from CW shows share their favorite scenes of the past season (ugh, SA mentioned Oliver's scene with William)...

Favorite Scenes: 'Arrow,' 'Flash,' Other CW Shows
Published on Jun 8, 2016, by TVLine

Edited June 9, 2016 by tv echo

[kismet]

At this point should we break out the Beating a Dead Horse Gif and present it to SA?? .... We get it you like the kid.

[tv echo]

The CW Is One of the Bigger TV Success Stories of the Decade
Josef Adalian   May 19, 2016
http://www.vulture.com/2016/05/cw-is-a-tv-success-story.html?mid=twitter-share-vulture

Quote

The CW has long been a hybrid network of sorts: It’s an old-school broadcast network with the heart and soul of a niche cable channel. A few years into its existence, it struggled with those dual identities, as well as the perception that it was little more than a hastily assembled marriage of two corporate giants (Warner Bros. TV and CBS) designed to hold on to the valuable broadcast real estate each had via the ashes of the WB and UPN. It wasn’t hard to find industry insiders ready to predict its demise, particularly as ratings started taking a dive. But something funny happened on the way to the network’s funeral: The CW started making shows people cared about. And while it’d be misleading to call the network some sort of juggernaut, it’s absolutely one of the bigger TV success stories of the decade. The lineup the CW unveiled today looks to continue that momentum.

Under network president Mark Pedowitz and executive vice president Thom Sherman, the CW has now clearly established three distinct pillars of its programming: DC Comics super-shows, a.k.a. the (Greg) Berlantisphere; All the Feels millennial soaps; and Vamps, Zombies & Other Assorted Dystopias dramas. That doesn’t appear to be changing next season; ....  Not only does that minimize disruption for the show’s existing fan base, it allows the CW to basically strip DC Comics shows Monday through Thursday at 8 p.m., making superhero shows both an anchor for the schedule and a destination for audiences. Plus, it means both of the network’s new shows get a decent-size lead-in. It’s such an obvious and brilliant play, one almost wonders whether CBS, CW, and Warner Bros. have been planning to move Supergirl from CBS to CW all along — that season one on CBS was essentially just one long advertisement for the show’s eventual move to its (much more obvious) home on CW. Supergirl will probably lose some audience in the shift to the CW, but if it can bring 75 percent of its season one audience to CW, it’ll be a big win.
*  *  *
Elsewhere, the CW will smartly use its superhero powers to push audiences to its two new fall series, the All the Feels soap No Tomorrow (Tuesdays at 9) and the hard-to-characterize Frequency (Wednesdays at 9). The trailers for both look intriguing, with Frequency more so, since it doesn’t fit squarely into one of the CW’s three big forms (though its themes of time travel and looming doom put it closest to being part of Other Assorted Dystopias). It’s silly to speculate so soon whether either show will work creatively or click with viewers, particularly since the CW doesn’t have the same sort of ratings requirements as a traditional network (and has proven to be very patient with shows it loves). Based on early trailers, however, the CW seems to once again have succeeded in finding shows likely to inspire passion from at least some segment of the audience. And after the way-too-many, brain-dead, paint-by-numbers projects unveiled by ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox earlier in the week, the two CW fall shows — and mid-season soap Riverdale — all at least look like they’re worth checking out. 

Still, it’s worth sounding a note of caution about where the CW stands. Much as it makes sense for NBC to keep adding Dick Wolf shows to its schedule — viewers want them! — it’s completely logical for the CW to lean into DC Comics shows. They’ve given the network buzz, ratings and, yes, an identity. But they’re now 40 percent of the network’s lineup. That’s a lot! If viewers suddenly feel like they’ve seen this all before, it’s not hard to imagine a tipping point where all the DC shows suddenly collapse. ...

Edited June 9, 2016 by tv echo

[quarks]

"All the Feels millennial soaps"

Full credit for trying, Vulture, but I'm still not convinced that Jane the Virgin and Reign have that much in common.

[apinknightmare]

2 hours ago, kismet said:

At this point should we break out the Beating a Dead Horse Gif and present it to SA?? .... We get it you like the kid.

 

[Velocity23]

http://tvline.com/2016/06/09/gotham-vicki-vale-season-3-cast-spoilers-ask-ausiello/

[bijoux]

Does this sound reminiscent of Ray in S3 if we're talking broad strokes?

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah but that's nothing new. AJK is following the same formula he probably laid out/planned to use on Arrow

[dtissagirl]

What's the over/under on this new guy dating Iris?

[bijoux]

I'm betting they're dating by the time Barry gets back from whatever timeline he's in. 

[ohjoy]

Guys, I can't. I want to enjoy Flash, and I do like Caitlyn, Cisco and any iteration of Tom Cavanaugh they give me, but I just -- I already watched Arrow season 3. I don't need to see it again with different actors. I don't even need to see it again with the same actors. Stop repeating the same story beats. Just stop.

[wonderwall]

6 minutes ago, RandomMe said:

Guys, I can't. I want to enjoy Flash, and I do like Caitlyn, Cisco and any iteration of Tom Cavanaugh they give me, but I just -- I already watched Arrow season 3. I don't need to see it again with different actors. I don't even need to see it again with the same actors. Stop repeating the same story beats. Just stop.

It's not confirmed yet so you never know!

[Velocity23]

Its gonna be similar to what happened when Oliver returned from  the dead in 3x12.

[kismet]

I wonder if they'll put Sydney Palmer on the Flash instead of Arrow or LoT? Sounds like Palmer scenario is about to happen on the Flash.

Seriously, those Palmer brothers get around - I wouldn't put it past them to have a Palmer hook up with Iris.

[bijoux]

Then Oliver and Barry could mope in the cafe as a call back to the first crossover.

[Lokiberry]

9 minutes ago, kismet said:

I wonder if they'll put Sydney Palmer on the Flash instead of Arrow or LoT? Sounds like Palmer scenario is about to happen on the Flash.

Seriously, those Palmer brothers get around - I wouldn't put it past them to have a Palmer hook up with Iris.

Wouldn't they have to use BR though, since the two are suppose to look so much alike? Seriously though, I'm not down for this if it's going to be an excuse for another stupid, show damaging love triangle. If, however, this guy is going to be used to point out how unbelievably stupid and self centered Barry has been, well, that would be different. I could get behind that.

[apinknightmare]

Just now, Lokiberry said:

If, however, this guy is going to be used to point out how unbelievably stupid and self centered Barry has been, well, that would be different. I could get behind that.

For that to happen, the people running/writing the show would have to think that Barry is stupid and self-centered, which I really don't think they do. 

[kismet]

1 hour ago, Lokiberry said:

Wouldn't they have to use BR though, since the two are suppose to look so much alike? Seriously though, I'm not down for this if it's going to be an excuse for another stupid, show damaging love triangle. If, however, this guy is going to be used to point out how unbelievably stupid and self centered Barry has been, well, that would be different. I could get behind that.

No they just have to get someone that has very similar features to BR. BR is an attractive male, but his features are not that unique that it would be hard to find someone close enough to play brothers that look alike. The bust on LoT looked like BR, but it was basically just his bone structure. Plus, they could always just forget the bust exists - it was in the future which may or may not exist.

I have no doubt that the Flash is setting up a love triangle. I have no strong opinions about it one way or the other. It might actually do the show well to have a love triangle. At least it would help perhaps get IW some screentime.

I do not think the writers believe that BA is either self-centered or stupid. I do not anticipate the writing will ever address that what BA did for 2 finales, except to revere it as so cool. I would be shocked if in s3, BA is now held accountable for his selfish choices.

[Trini]

The Flash writers suck, but I don't think they're stupid. I don't think this new character will date Iris. (Plus, they just hired a couple of WestAllen 'shippers for next season) He sounds like a work adversary -- who might have powers?

[wonderwall]

38 minutes ago, Trini said:

The Flash writers suck, but I don't think they're stupid. I don't think this new character will date Iris. (Plus, they just hired a couple of WestAllen 'shippers for next season) He sounds like a work adversary -- who might have powers?

I don't think this means anything... There are a few writers on the Arrow writers room that have been somewhat outspoken about shipping Olicity (Ben Sokolowski, Beth Schwartz, Wendy Mericle, Jeff Coburn (who was a part of the crew in s3)) but in the end they have to follow the major story beats that are set by the EPs... And if the network intervenes and mandates a breakup (which I'm sure is what happened in S4 of Arrow) or a love triangle then the writers will have to follow that too...

Edited June 10, 2016 by wonderwall

[way2interested]

It's weird, it looks like Flash took moments from Arrow and just tried to take seemingly problematic parts out of them to make them their own. The problem is that they add their whole own problems with their own execution that kind of gets battered down more because there is a somewhat inescapable comparison between the moments. Like, Eddie dying still avoided the more awkward love triangle parts that Arrow s1 had while retaining the idea of a great sacrifice from an innocent character, but lacked the lasting effect on the story's that Tommy's had (both because Eddie was more connected to Iris than Barry and because Reverse Flash coming back and Ronnie dying in 201 negated the potency of Eddie's death). Henry dying avoided a drawn-out dramatic scene to just retain the immediate shock, but the quickness of the scene removed a lot of the emotion that the Arrow's episode retained (not to mention the idea that Henry dying to fuel Barry angst isn't really what the Flash is all about, so it just feels out of place for the show in general).

For all we know, this character could be them doing their own Ray but fixing him in their own way. Like, they could remove the love triangle aspect away from this character since that's why fans disliked Ray so much apparently (*rolls eyes*) and keep the character as a friendly adversary, possibly someone likewise from the comics. My main problem with this, besides being yet another similar story beat from Arrow, is the same as the uneasiness that's coming from bringing Curtis onto the team. The idea that this character could take away from Iris and Caitlin who desperately need more from the story (and, heaven forbid, actually each do something in the same episode) is making me uncomfortable with the idea of any new characters coming on.

What bums me out now is that the casting announcements from pretty much all of the Arrowverse shows (Supergirl included) are not exciting me much at all, save the Cadmus villain for Supergirl and partially the big bad for Arrow. 

[kismet]

The only thing that might spare the Flash from having a love triangle is that there are no "Run Spot Run - The Love Triangle" that I am aware of for them to draw inspiration.

Edited June 10, 2016 by kismet

[Trini]

46 minutes ago, way2interested said:

It's weird, it looks like Flash took moments from Arrow and just tried to take seemingly problematic parts out of them to make them their own. The problem is that they add their whole own problems with their own execution that kind of gets battered down more because there is a somewhat inescapable comparison between the moments....

Well, only if you watch both shows.
But I don't think The Flash is copying Arrow necessarily. Adding a new character to ignite interpersonal conflict is basic TV. However, I agree that he could take away screentime from characters that don't get enough already. (And they already have nothing for Wally to do!)

[nksarmi]

3 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

What's the over/under on this new guy dating Iris?

I hope they are dating and he is really great to her and really attractive (and a good guy).

I mean seriously, Barry pulled the "I'm not in a good place right now Iris, so I have to go back in time and change my WHOLE life even though I know better and it might mean I lose you" card at the end of season two. Iris deserves SO much better.

[FurryFury]

Quote

What bums me out now is that the casting announcements from pretty much all of the Arrowverse shows (Supergirl included) are not exciting me much at all, save the Cadmus villain for Supergirl and partially the big bad for Arrow. 

This. Although I'm not sure if I'll watch The Flash next season after this year's fiasco. As for Arrow, I'll probably wait until mid-season and then decide if it deserves going back to, now that the biggest reason for avoiding it is gone. I'm really suspecting Supergirl will be changed drastically, and that bums me out - this show does merit a huge retool, but not in the direction these casting calls seems to be going in (I mean, the first thing you need to do is drop the Kara/James romance and, hell, James himself, who is a dud). 

That said, I don't mind the alt-Vixen, could be good.

Edited June 10, 2016 by FurryFury

[bijoux]

7 hours ago, kismet said:

I do not think the writers believe that BA is either self-centered or stupid. I do not anticipate the writing will ever address that what BA did for 2 finales, except to revere it as so cool. I would be shocked if in s3, BA is now held accountable for his selfish choices.

There was that tweet from Grant Gustin a few days ago leading me to believe they might acknowledge it.

5 hours ago, wonderwall said:

I don't think this means anything... There are a few writers on the Arrow writers room that have been somewhat outspoken about shipping Olicity (Ben Sokolowski, Beth Schwartz, Wendy Mericle, Jeff Coburn (who was a part of the crew in s3)) but in the end they have to follow the major story beats that are set by the EPs... And if the network intervenes and mandates a breakup (which I'm sure is what happened in S4 of Arrow) or a love triangle then the writers will have to follow that too...

I always thought the breakup was the EPs' brainchild, but the network makes sense as well. Especially since the writers apparently didn't know what to do with it following the immediate aftermath.

[tv echo]

CBS not moving forward with Tom Welling’s Section 13, could free him up for Supergirl
by Leah Smith June 9, 2016
https://fansided.com/2016/06/09/cbs-not-moving-forward-tom-welling-section-13/

Quote

But the thought was that he would be unavailable because of his new show over on CBS, Section 13. Welling was set to both star and executive produce the project leaving him with little time to film Supergirl.
*  *  *
Now it looks like he may have some time after all. As reported by TVLine, the future of Welling’s CBS project does not look too good.
*  *  *
Nothing official has been stated about if Supergirl is even open to the idea of Welling reprising the role. But from an early statement on the possibility of once again playing Clark Kent it sounds like Welling would be open to the opportunity, as he mentioned to Comic Book Resources.

Quote

There’s people who would like it… there’s people who don’t like it, but I will tell you that no one has ever actually asked me to do it. So, I don’t know. It would be kind of odd. I don’t know who he is at that point. He would obviously be Superman.

The CW was in a similar position once before when they were casting Arrow and the title role of Oliver Queen. Fans of Smallville wanted Justin Hartley to reprise the role, as he played the Green Arrow from Season 5 on. But Arrow was going in a darker direction than Smallville ever did, so Stephen Amell was cast instead.

Edited June 10, 2016 by tv echo

[kismet]

8 hours ago, bijoux said:

There was that tweet from Grant Gustin a few days ago leading me to believe they might acknowledge it.

I want nothing more than for GG's tweets to come to fruition. I just have little faith in the Flash writers. Not when his actions are so heavily rooted in the comics. And the writers room is filled with fanboys & fangirls. Even if they acknowledge it, he is still probably going to be forgiven and its still going to be revered as cool. It's going to be bad parenting 101. Reprimand a child for something wrong, but then completely undermine that by indirectly (or directly) complimenting the child for how cool it was. It needs to not be revered as cool and there is no way I see the writers eliminating the cool aspect of what BA did.

[Sakura12]

I'm sure we'll get Barry's sad face and he'll feel guilty, then Iris, Cisco, Caitlin and Joe will tell Barry how awesome is he and how much of a hero he is (maybe throw him a party). Everything will forgiven and go back to normal so Barry can try to destroy the world all over again in the season 3 finale. 

That's twice he did that, it makes him look like the villain of the story. 

[apinknightmare]

9 hours ago, bijoux said:

There was that tweet from Grant Gustin a few days ago leading me to believe they might acknowledge it.

I thought that might be the case when he said he was back on speaking terms with Barry, but then I figured that the found out that whatever he messed up at the end of the season isn't permanent, will be fixed by the time the show comes back, or will open up a storyline where he's still awesome, but things are different. I don't have much faith that he's gonna get called out on any of it. 

[Morrigan2575]

Quote

I really don't think we will see KC in the crossover. There are already 84753709 characters that are alive and from the right earth to fit in, LOL.

Brought over from Social Media Thread.

When you think about it, it's going to come down to the Leads and Fan Favorites, which is pretty much how the last two crossovers worked.

They're also going to want to use Flash to prop up Arrow, LoT and Supergirl's ratings. Supergirl should in turn (hopefully) prop up Arrow and LoT. I'm guessing this will be a true 4 part Crossover event, probably something that deals with time travel and the multi-verse  (so they can bring Supergirl over).

Actual crossovers, my guesses:

Supergirl, Arrow, Flash (on all 4 shows) Although, I question Arrow on Supergirl

Felicity, Diggle, Cisco, Caitlin  (2-3 shows)

Sara, ATOM, Stein and probably new Vixen (1-3) shows. Mostly because of the time travel aspect. 

The rest will probably feature (or in Iris's case get 30 seconds)  in their own show but, not crossover.

Keep in mind that every actor will need a separate contract and payment for each appearance. If Arrow appears in all 4 episodes, SA gets 3 extra paychecks. So the producers will want to limit the amount of characters crossing over to each show in order to keep the budgets reasonable.

[ohjoy]

It just hit me how much extra shooting time is going to be needed to have even one character from each of the four shows be in every episode of the crossover,  much less the leads from three shows + a designated rep from LoT appear in all four episodes of the crossover. If they manage to pull this off with an enjoyable storyline that doesn't mess up any of the shows' fall arcs, I'll be truly impressed.

[dtissagirl]

I'm actually curious as to how they're gonna frame 508. If they go for a "this is Arrow's 100th episode, let's celebrate that" kind of story that just happens to have characters from other shows around, or if it's Arrow's part of the crossover that just happens to also be the 100th episode.

I wish for the former, but I'm afraid we'll get the latter.

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I'm actually curious as to how they're gonna frame 508. If they go for a "this is Arrow's 100th episode, let's celebrate that" kind of story that just happens to have characters from other shows around, or if it's Arrow's part of the crossover that just happens to also be the 100th episode.

I wish for the former, but I'm afraid we'll get the latter.

Any chance they move Flarrow Crossover?  

507 is crossover

508 is 100th

509 is MSF

Or hell, move Flarrow crossover to Feb Sweeps, give Arrow and LoT a post winter break boost

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Any chance they move Flarrow Crossover?  

507 is crossover

508 is 100th

509 is MSF

Or hell, move Flarrow crossover to Feb Sweeps, give Arrow and LoT a post winter break boost

Yeah... I honestly don't see why the crossover HAS to be on the 8th episode... I guess it's because they want people to binge watch the shows during the hiatus? IDK It'd be tough to binge watch 4 seasons of Arrow in 4 weeks for a lot of people (especially during Christmas/New Years)

[dtissagirl]

I figure they just want to shoot it before the Christmas break, because they tend to have more post-production time from July to December, than from January to April. So any episode between 1 and 13/14 is fair game.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Episode 8 is such a weird time for any crossover because it cuts the momenta the shows have going just as they get to their midseason finales. The crossovers are totally unrelated to the bigger arcs and there's always the danger of the characters being written in ways that may not be true after the most recent episode (I'm remembering Flarrow 1x08/3x08 here where Felicity and Oliver were very flirty considering that in 3x07 Oliver had almost murdered the fern after seeing Ray and Felicity smooch). I wish they could do it as a special TV event separate from the actual shows. Like a 2-night, 4-hour TV movie or something during the hiatus. That's not gonna happen. They want the ratings boost to the shows and it's probably not even logistically feasible to add another entire new production on top of the 23 episodes. But I just hate how Arrow (I really don't care that much about The Flash  and I don't watch Supergirl and LOT) has to stop dead in the middle of a sprint for the crossovers.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, dtissagirl said:

I figure they just want to shoot it before the Christmas break, because they tend to have more post-production time from July to December, than from January to April. So any episode between 1 and 13/14 is fair game.

They definitely want to get it in early but if they pushed it to episode 13/14 they could use it to boost ratings going into February Sweeps. Of course the downside is that it'll put them closer to LoT season finale. Or did LoT get a full order?  It also seems to be harder for them to keep the schedule/timeline coordinaed in the back half.

I think this might all be wishful thinking on my part. With the way all of them talk it's all about the crossover, you wouldn't even think Arrow was reaching 100 episodes

Edited June 10, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[SmallScreenDiva]

Are 100 episodes still that big of a deal? I know they were back in the day when reaching 100 meant syndication. But with other platforms now, is it still a huge milestone that shows do something special for?

[Starfish35]

Quote

Or did LoT get a full order?

I don't think there has been any indication yet of how many episodes LoT is getting. 

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Are 100 episodes still that big of a deal? I know they were back in the day when reaching 100 meant syndication. But with other platforms now, is it still a huge milestone that shows do something special for?

I think it's still a big deal. Syndication may not need 100 episodes any more but it is a milestone especially in the age when cancellations come at the drop of a hat.  I think about SPN and it's 100th. They cleverly worked it into the mytharc of the season and dropped little easter eggs like making the boys motel room number 100 and other nods to the milestone and the episode didn't live outside of the mytharc for the season either, even if I HATED it LOL it was still meaningful.  IMO Arrow doesn't have to make it a HUGE event but they can make it special in clever ways if they are so motivated. I just want the 100th to be about Arrow and only Arrow. I'm sure I won't get my wish though

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I don't think there has been any indication yet of how many episodes LoT is getting. 

I remember reading it did get a full order but I can't find it now. I can't fathom them pairing it with SPN if it doesn't have a full order because that really messes with SPN having a lead in when they get to sweeps. At least I hope they wouldn't do SPN that way :(.

[Velocity23]

According to yvr Supergirl starts filming on July 25th. Which seems weird since it would be after SDCC.

[kismet]

I want Arrow to get its own 100th episode separate from the crossover.

I actually think the shows would be better off to have the crossovers take place in Jan/Feb to kick off their spring seasons. They could also make it more like a mini-break from the show's main arcs.

I know they like to have crossovers, but I actually wish they were more organic to the actual storytelling. Last season's xover story just felt so forced and then to wrap in the BMD was so dumb. It left a poor taste in the new/old audience's mouth. It's bad enough when you have to accommodate all these different characters, to throw in some big wrench like the BMD that has no connection to the xover and only Arrow was just poor planning.

I'm really not looking forward to the 4 part xover this year, because I've yet to see an agenda or plot that is worthwhile to compromise a whole week of programming. I think they would be better off with smaller xovers.

[tv echo]

Next season on The Flash - it's gonna be Caitlin & Friends! ...

Spoiler Room: Scoop on OITNB, Once Upon a Time, Flash and more
BY NATALIE ABRAMS  June 10 2016 
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/06/10/spoiler-room-orange-new-black-once-upon-time-flash

Quote

Any info on The Flash’s Caitlin for next season? — Justin
Remember Caitlin and Killer Frost’s little chat about their less-than-lovable mothers? Well, we may finally get to meet the woman. “We haven’t met Caitlin’s mother yet, so we got a little talk between the two women, which is something that will probably play out in season 3,” EP Andrew Kreisberg says, playing coy on any dream casting — which means you should share yours in the comments below.

And from Super Heroes Con II in Paris today...

Edited June 11, 2016 by tv echo

[Lady Calypso]

22 hours ago, tv echo said:

Next season on The Flash - it's gonna be Caitlin & Friends! ...

 

Actually, I believe they want to separate Caitlin and Felicity's shows as much as they can. So Caitlin's will be called Caitlin and Company.

[kismet]

If they make the Flash Caitlin & Co, for me it will be easier to quit - so I have no objections should the Flash go down that road. :)

[tv echo]

To clarify, I was mocking the notion that exploring a supporting character's back story (like introducing their parents) would turn that show into the supporting character's show.

Edited June 13, 2016 by tv echo

[wonderwall]

Someone mentioned this on twitter... But Nikki Behari would be a great Vixen. I think even moreso than Naya Rivera