Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[apinknightmare]

I mean, I still really liked the episode but maybe I was expecting too much?

 

Yeah, I think reading spoilers will do that to you. I thought it was really enjoyable and entertaining, but it was different then I expected. And I was expecting Diggle to be hilarious, and didn't really find his reactions to be all that funny, except for when he was asking Oliver if the thought Barry did everything faster (and when he tossed his fries - I forgot about that). I thought the Felicity and Wells scene was going to be super foreboding, but he was just testing her. I thought...yeah, just that it would be different. But like I wrote, I really enjoyed it. 

Edited December 3, 2014 by apinknightmare

[foreverevolving]

I always get excited and than lower my exceptions by 70%, it helps me not become irrationally upset over things like the show, while keeping my annoyance with my bank manager on a higher level (cause she deserves it).

[SonofaBiscuit]

I convinced my brother to watch, and I really oversold him on the Diggle thing, telling him how SA had to bite his lip to keep it together.  We discussed after, and we both wondered when the heck that happened.  I didn't really find Diggle's reaction to Barry hilarious, but I did find it funny that he kept going on and on about Barry's speed, and  how he wondered about Barry going to the bathroom.  But I basically have no expectations about the Arrow side of the crossover, so maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

Oh, I forgot to mention.  I just love Felicity and Caitlyn's friendship.  I'm hoping that Felicity can develop a relationship with Thea because I think that she really needs a female friend on Arrow.

Edited December 3, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[wonderwall]

I honestly thought that Diggle was great, but he wasn't as great as the cast and crew made him out to be. I daresay though I did laugh out loud at this: 

 

[Chaser]

I thought Diggle was great; I love his expressions and delivery. I just thought he was underused. IMO Team Arrow as a whole was underused. I was a little disappointed at how spaced they were. For whatever reason, I got the impression it would Team Arrow and Team Flash in Star Labs. Instead, half the episode was Felicity in Star Labs, Oliver/Barry out in the field and Diggle just disappearing. Why didn't he join Oliver and Felicity at Jitters (not that I totally minded that because you know MARRIED)? Where was he when Felicity was at the Lab and Oliver/Barry were training? 

[apinknightmare]

I honestly thought that Diggle was great, but he wasn't as great as the cast and crew made him out to be. I daresay though I did laugh out loud at this: 

 

 

Yeah, maybe it'll be better on rewatch like a lot of things with Arrow seem to be for me. I didn't think he was unfunny or bad or anything, it just wasn't what I was expecting given the way the cast and EPs had talked about his reactions.

[ban1o]

My brother watched the Episode with me and he thought Diggle"s comments were hilarious but he doesn't follow spoilers so he wasn't expecting anything

Edited December 3, 2014 by ban1o

[wonderwall]

My brother watched the Episode with me and he thought Diggle"s comments were hilarious but he doesn't follow spoilers so he want expecting anythong

I always forget to remember to keep my expectations low in terms of what the cast and crew say about certain episodes. For me the Oliver/Felicity scene (MG said it was a 9/10), I'm expecting it to be a 6/10, the episode in general I'm expecting to be okay but nothing spectacular. It's just the only way I can enjoy the show now lol I mean, it sucks, but I'm in it for the long haul because of certain stupid characters... 

[ban1o]

I always forget to remember to keep my expectations low in terms of what the cast and crew say about certain episodes. For me the Oliver/Felicity scene (MG said it was a 9/10), I'm expecting it to be a 6/10, the episode in general I'm expecting to be okay but nothing spectacular. It's just the only way I can enjoy the show now lol I mean, it sucks, but I'm in it for the long haul because of certain stupid characters...

Haha true like the "HUGE SECRET" that they kept hyping was extremely underwhelming and expected. Overall liked the episode though 8/10 for me. Better then most of arrows actual episode this season imo. Edited December 3, 2014 by ban1o

[foreverevolving]

Yeah, maybe it'll be better on rewatch like a lot of things with Arrow seem to be for me. I didn't think he was unfunny or bad or anything, it just wasn't what I was expecting given the way the cast and EPs had talked about his reactions.

It was a very Diggle respond. so i was okay with that. he was in shock so...

[wonderwall]

Haha true like the "HUGE SECRET" that they kept hyping was extremely underwhelming and expected. Overall liked the episode though 8/10 for me. Better then most of arrows actual episode this season imo.

Agreed. I think Arrow needs to lighten up a bit because not only is it dark, but it's just gotten depressing this season. The show is missing elements of what made it great Oliver/Diggle/Felicity working as a team, Moira, more Moira, a compelling villain, the episodes seemed to gel well together as a whole and wasn't choppy, also I miss the lighter feel and intensity of the episodes... The mystery isn't compelling at all considering there's no sense of urgency to it... I mean we've gone about 2-3 weeks without the team investigating who killed Sara. This just doesn't make me care for the 'big reveal' about who it is. 

 

I'm hoping season 4 will be different. I want Oliver to lighten up. I want Felicity to cry less, I want Digg to have his own thing going on. I want less superfluous characters (Ted, Laurel. Because let's be real, they have zero effect on pushing the plot forward. Even with Laurel being put front and center she's still orbiting around the main arc (whatever it is) and not actually participating in it). 

 

I hope AK and GB come back and fix this show because MG is NOT doing a good job running Arrow alone. 

Edited December 3, 2014 by wonderwall

[looptab]

Yeah, I enjoyed a lot, too, but in my head things went differently :) Like that part with Wells and Felicity, thought it would be another kind of exchange; still, he can be really menacing with doing so little, and I liked how when he revealed he knew it was Oliver Felicity looked like he pulled the rug from beneath her :) I liked less that Iris was all over Oliver, I mean, was that necessary ?(probably a realistic reaction, though!). The big secret was practically spoiled at Comic Con, so...lol

Edited December 3, 2014 by looptab

[Chaser]

I have to say Cisco had some of my favorite line deliveries tonight. The "I will always remember this" and the "That's my bad. That's on me." I LOL'd.

 

ETA: I also enjoyed Iris smacking Barry..over and over..about knowing Oliver Queen and not telling her. It was charming. 

Edited December 3, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[statsgirl]

I wonder if Iris being all over Oliver was what prompted Barry later taunting him about being able to get all the girls and never having felt jealous of anyone before.

[DrSpaceman10]

I wonder if Iris being all over Oliver was what prompted Barry later taunting him about being able to get all the girls and never having felt jealous of anyone before.

 

I'm pretty sure that was the purpose of Iris being all over Oliver. Plot-driven character again...I thought that scene was completely unnecessary. 

Edited December 3, 2014 by drspaceman10

[looptab]

That's possible. Still...ugh, I don't know, it rubbed me the wrong way lol

Also, after tonight more than ever i'm with those of you who don't like how Barry is hitting on Iris..I think they're going for a Peter Parker/Mary-Jane thing, I just hope they don't kiss in the rain upside-down.

[DrSpaceman10]

That's possible. Still...ugh, I don't know, it rubbed me the wrong way lol

 

These writers seem to have some obsession with all women being attracted to Oliver all of the time. I don't get it, sometimes it seems like they're trying to live vicariously through Oliver or something...

[wonderwall]

That's possible. Still...ugh, I don't know, it rubbed me the wrong way lol

Also, after tonight more than ever i'm with those of you who don't like how Barry is hitting on Iris..I think they're going for a Peter Parker/Mary-Jane thing, I just hope they don't kiss in the rain upside-down.

What I liked about this though is Caitlin calling him out on it. It bugged me that Barry didn't even consider listening to her though. I hope Caitlin keeps harping on Barry about getting in between Iris and Eddie because that's just not right. You don't do that to your best friend regardless of whether you're in love with her or not. I feel like the best Barry can do is wait till Iris and Eddie run its course because honestly? If Iris lies to Eddie with ease and not feel any remorse about it then they're obviously not really going to end up together. 

These writers seem to have some obsession with all women being attracted to Oliver all of the time. I don't get it, sometimes it seems like they're trying to live vicariously through Oliver or something...

I mean, he's hot and has a fantastic body, it's not hard to believe that a lot of the women on the show are attracted to him, but what's nice is that usually it doesn't go any further. It's not like they're all in love with him :p. Not every woman knows of his tortured soul like we do, so I think they only judge him on looks. 

[looptab]

Yes, Caitlin was one of the highlight of the episode for me. And when she ran away from the boomerang it was honestly hilarious (I'm all from* this kind of comedy).

I can kind of understand where Barry is coming from and why he wouldn't want to stop doing it, it still is a very douchey behaviour. I hope that Iris telling him off is the end of it, frankly.

 

ETA:*for, I meant for, lol

Edited December 3, 2014 by looptab

[calliope1975]

I mean, I'd put Oliver Queen on my list of 3. Just saying.

[DrSpaceman10]

I mean, he's hot and has a fantastic body, it's not hard to believe that a lot of the women on the show are attracted to him, but what's nice is that usually it doesn't go any further. It's not like they're all in love with him :p. Not every woman knows of his tortured soul like we do, so I think they only judge him on looks. 

 

But he's slept with pretty much every female character on the show. At least this year they seem to be keeping it to one woman. In fact, I hope Felicity is Oliver's last love interest, he's already had enough love interests for an entire show and switching women all of the time doesn't make him look good, in my opinion. 

Edited December 3, 2014 by drspaceman10

[wonderwall]

But he's slept with pretty much every female character on the show and that's something that just rubs me the wrong way. At least this year they seem to be keeping it to one woman. In fact, I hope Felicity is Oliver's last love interest, he's already had enough love interests for an entire show and switching women all of the time doesn't make him look good, in my opinion. 

I think there's a difference between attraction and having feelings for someone. Iris definitely doesn't have feelings for Oliver, all she cares about is that he has a pretty face and a hot body which is why I didn't mind the scene. I thought it was kind of cute lol. I mean we've all had our own celebrity crushes right? Plus, I'm pretty sure if Iris got to know Oliver, she wouldn't like him as much :p 

 

I too am hoping Felicity is Oliver's last love interest. I don't want to see him recycle his old ones either. Considering 1 is dead, another is in the slammer, and another is off in another city, I'm sure the possibilities are less likely. I also don't think Oliver will get back together with Laurel :p That ship has sailed and they're setting up a strong foundation for Oliver/Felicity that it'll be sort of like whiplash if he suddenly doesn't have feelings for her. 

[statsgirl]

I they're setting up a strong foundation for Oliver/Felicity that it'll be sort of like whiplash if he suddenly doesn't have feelings for her. 

Guggenheim has screwed up this season so much, I wouldn't be surprised if Oliver, knowing he "can't" have the girl he wants, sleeps with the girl he's with, maybe when he's off somewhere outside of Starling City, maybe if he meets Barbara Gordon. Because the show is that messed up this year.

[Password]

This show became an advertisement for Olicity. My word. Every time they walked next to each other I expected one of them to grab the others hand. Jeez.

Diggle was hilarious and underused. Where did he disappear to whenever Oliver and Felicity were hanging out...not that I'm complaining but really.

Agh Barry. You know I can't take Barry and Iris seriously until she knows his secret. And now Barry is trying to break up her and Eddie's relationship? Leave that to season 1 Oliver, Barry!!

OK so, super predictable about the baby mama. Sigh what will Arrow do with that drama? Ooh someone on tumblr noted something interesting. Oliver said "you're going to HAWK me until I help Barry aren't you?" And Felicity replied, "I'm a HAWKER." Coincidence that Oliver's kids name in the comic is Connor HAWKE?????? Subtle folks.

[wingster55]

And when she ran away from the boomerang it was honestly hilarious (I'm all from this kind of comedy).

 

Her arms flailing was hilarious to me too.

Crossover only related to Arrow..not enough Diggle. What, he wasn't around to have coffee with? 

I would've liked to see him with Iris and actually interact with Wells and Joe. 

[Betweenthisandthat]

I would have loved more Diggle.  I enjoyed the episode but on second thought there was enough to bother me that I continue to be skeptical of how both shows write their romances.  

 

I haven't watched The Flash before but I follow spoilers anyway.   I don't like that Barry's rage came out mostly on Eddie.  I like the Barry character from the little I've seen him, and I assume some of his anger was because he knew Eddie was trying to get as task force against the flash because?  But some of that anger was his possessiveness over Iris or so it seemed to me.  I also don't like that some of Eddie's desire to get The Flash also seemed to be based on his possessiveness over Iris, too. I did get flashes (heh) of Tommy and Laurel and Oliver and Laurel in the Iris, Eddie, Barry triangle except this one creeps me out (more). I'll just assume all that ego tripping was for this episode and because of whatever infected Barry, but still.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Betweenthisandthat

[Password]

Does anyone find it ironic that Oliver basically said the hero doesn't get the girl, when the hero always gets the girl??? Oh Oliver.

[looptab]

Her arms flailing was hilarious to me too.

Crossover only related to Arrow..not enough Diggle. What, he wasn't around to have coffee with? 

I would've liked to see him with Iris and actually interact with Wells and Joe. 

Yes, I would have liked more Diggle, too. Also, why was he in the hallway while Oliver and Felicity were saying goodbye?Don't be rude, John.

[BumpSetSpike]

Loved Diggle in this episode, but I agree he was horribly underused yet again. I wish he did more than gawk at Barry's ability and argue as of the sides of the EPs fantasy about who would win a fight between two superheroes.

I really, really liked Oliver this episode. Serious but not mopey, sarcastic yet on point, and with the exception of the fight scene (which made me laugh in a way I don't think they intended), he was just darn enjoyable to watch. Gosh, do I miss that! Even when all he'll broke with slade last season, Oliver seemed more in control and real.

And the baby mama, hardly a surprise. I'm sure most of us called that one when we heard about a big reveal in central city.

Cisco, Cisco...love him! He just makes me smile every time.

Pissed the writers disrespected Sally's relationship with Oliver to show "oh I'm mean Barry now"...no thank you! Lol

Edited December 3, 2014 by BumpSetSpike

[Password]

Yes I actually enjoyed Oliver the most this episode. I loved the contrast between his stoic and straight facedness and Felicity's light as sunshine attitude. They did a good job showcasing why they make such a good couple.

Oliver was great. I really enjoyed his seriousness in comparison to Barry's playful manner. It was like the show needed Oliver's focused, concentration to balance the light of team Flash. He wasn't dour, he actually smiled (the joy it brings me when he does), and he picked up on Wells' creep factor when Wells, it seemed, was being a good guy and reminding Oliver that he does good and his parents would be proud. It was just wonderful tbh. I wasn't even that annoyed by his talk with Barry at the end. It seemed reminiscent of his trials with Laurel in season 1, but almost in reaction to seeing the parallel of Ray and Felicity last week, and Eddie and Iris this week. And I don't need to mention the MARRIED stamp on he and Felicity this episode. It was great.

[Danny Franks]

These writers seem to have some obsession with all women being attracted to Oliver all of the time. I don't get it, sometimes it seems like they're trying to live vicariously through Oliver or something...

 

Given how so many of the questions they get asked by fans are when Oliver is going to take his shirt off, when he's going to do the salmon ladder again, why Oliver has to wear pants all the time, it's hardly surprising that they're happy to write lots of women being attracted to him.

 

He clearly is an attractive guy, so why not write women as being attracted to him? But there's a world of difference between them being attracted to him, and them all sleeping with him.

[Trini]

-- Batman Returns

 

-- The Flash/Arrow (at .50 sec.)

[Ceylon5]

Felicity's response to Iris going all gushy over Oliver made me laugh out loud.  She shoots this amused grin behind Iris' back to Barry, that was all "Whoa, your crush is crushing on my crush!" and then after Iris goes off with Barry she aims her laughter at Oliver instead.  It was a very funny little scene.

 

Later, in the final scene in the coffee shop when Iris comes up to Oliver and Felicity, I noticed that Oliver kind of stepped back behind Felicity, as if to use her as a shield between him and Iris.  That made me grin too.  I guess once embarrassingly gushed over, twice shy.

[ostentatious]

Re: the Diggle in this ep. I think this show is really bad about confusing things that were awesome on set with things that are awesome on screen. DR was probably hilarious take after take, giving different reactions that cracked everyone up...but only a tiny bit of that is going to make it onscreen. Similarly, I'm sure The Promise felt like the greatest ep ever while they were planning and filming it because they pulled it off, man! Good work guys, we are so awesome!! But onscreen, it was just an ep with a good level of tv spectacle viewed by people who are used to watching spectacle, filled with big moments that were only big to the characters because we knew all of it already, and littered with "huh?"s that bugged us like that weird Sara zoom and Slade's weird face when her name was spoken.

So what people making a thing feel awesome about is not necessarily what people who weren't there and are just watching the final edit think is awesome. These guys frequently do not get the difference.

And ok...what was the biggest shocker in Arrow history that was supposed to come at the end of the Flash ep? We have never not known Sandra and Connor were alive and in Central City. What did the audience learn that Oliver doesn't know? We learned nothing, we had all this info already. The only shock would've been if we found out Oliver secretly already knew.

Re: prods living vicariously through women's attraction to Oliver. I don't really see how women being attracted to a guy who looks like Stephen Amell makes Kreisberg or Guggenheim feel good about themselves. You know, no offense, but...and Berlanti is good looking but I doubt he fetishizes the female sexual response.

Similarly it always confuses me when fangirls get accused of living vicariously through Felicity. Like...yeah, a petite 23-yo blonde woman who is the embodiment of the intersection of about a half dozen het male fantasies proving once and for all that women of that description can attract shockingly hot men is really helping me come to terms with my body. Now I have hope!

Edited December 3, 2014 by ostentatious

[SleepDeprived]

It kinda sucks that the Team Arrow dynamic that I was so excited to see in S3 of Arrow was more realized in a few scenes on an episode of The Flash than their own show (just like the insight into Felicity's feelings for Oliver in "Going Rogue").

 

Diggle set aside his love doctor hat so we got Felicity and Diggle bonding a little over Big Belly Burgers, as well as Diggle and Oliver having discussions while on stake-out. And we got a peek at how I imagined the build-up of Oliver and Felicity would have been during the 5 months we lost to the time jump (coffee dates, teasing, subtle flirting, lots of staring into each other's eyes). I would've wanted to see that build-up before we went mach-5 speeds of unable to stop touching each other, excited multi-tasking because finally a date, and oh god our chemistry exploded the whole room so I can't be with you but I love you and want babies with you, maybe someday straight into will they/won't they tropesville.

 

There were jokes, and defending each other, and Diggle believing Oliver would beat Barry, and Felicity being worried about Oliver, and hints of actual discussions with each other about stuff. Felicity knew Oliver's plan to shoot Barry with arrows! They were actually talking to each other and delivering monologues together. Team Arrow actually looked like they were having fun doing what they do. Instead of the awkward and the sadness that the lair seems to be permeated with, nowadays.

 

I'm really starting to believe that all the good Arrow writers are more focused with The Flash now. Or, at least, the ones that truly understood the Team Arrow dynamic like Sokolowski, Berlanti, and (I can't believe I'm saying this because I used to think he was LL's #1 fan) Kreisberg. Sokolowski and Kreisberg, incidentally, are the two main writers of the current run of Green Arrow comic books, which has Oliver/Felicity/Diggle as a team running a mission together and bantering much like S1/S2-A Team Arrow. Le sigh. I hope tonight's Arrow part of the crossover event doesn't disappoint.

Edited December 3, 2014 by SleepDeprived

[dtissagirl]

I'm finding it fascinating, from a purely technical filmmaking/storytelling standpoint, how fluid Flash is vs. how choppy Arrow is right now. And it's not like they're not burning though story on Flash as much as they are on Arrow. Both shows are going through plot points at warp speed like whoa, but it at least to me, it doesn't feel rushed on Flash, or like they're skipping important character beats, or cutting scenes down for time, like it does on Arrow.

 

Last week's Flash impressed me with how they interweaved three villains into one episode that kinda had two A-plots instead of the usual A and B plots. Clock King at the police dept was just as relevant as electric dude invading Star Labs. Joe, Iris and Eddie were all crucial in solving the hostage situation. And then back at Star Labs, Team Flash had to make hard decisions about giving Barry back his powers, and on top of that, we get Dr. Wells releasing the steel dude to fight electric dude... and it moved the plot along! Characters learned things! Relationships were strengthened and developed. It's the kind of thing that used to happen on late S1 and early S2 Arrow.

 

I think for me, the big glaring thing when comparing how one show is successfully burning through story while the other is failing is that Flash knows how to integrate all of its characters into the story. Everyone has a narrative function, and everyone is getting enough story, and not in majorly isolated plots that only belong to one person. Even if stupid tropey tropes are keeping Iris from knowing the truth, she's not written as belonging to a completely different story. She's as integrated into the main plot as everyone else.

 

While Arrow is still keeping Laurel in a completely separated storyline of learning how to fight instead of investigating Sara's murder, giving Crazy Eyes a becoming-a-robot-hero story that only marginally involves Felicity, and keeping Thea's arc... well, I honestly have no idea what the hell they're doing with Thea. 6 months of hardcore ninja training probably gives you important skills in knowing how to buy an apartment and run a nightclub, I guess.

Edited December 3, 2014 by dancingnancy

[wingster55]

Also..I don't know if I'm a fan of all of Star Labs' upgrades coming from Felicity. Come on now..none of team Flash are capable of adding that?

[Betweenthisandthat]

There were jokes, and defending each other, and Diggle believing Oliver would beat Barry, and Felicity being worried about Oliver, and hints of actual discussions with each other about stuff. Felicity knew Oliver's plan to shoot Barry with arrows! They were actually talking to each other and delivering monologues together. Team Arrow actually looked like they were having fun doing what they do. Instead of the awkward and the sadness that the lair seems to be permeated with, nowadays.

 

Yes. The characters were fun to watch in The Flash and I haven't felt that this season on Arrow. 

 

While Arrow is still keeping Laurel in a completely separated storyline of learning how to fight instead of investigating Sara's murder, giving Crazy Eyes a becoming-a-robot-hero story that only marginally involves Felicity, and keeping Thea's arc... well, I honestly have no idea what the hell they're doing with Thea. 6 months of hardcore ninja training probably gives you important skills in knowing how to buy an apartment and run a nightclub, I guess

 

Despite my dislike of the triangle stuff I saw in The Flash from all the characters involved in it, if only because it was possessive and cliche, I liked how all the characters did seem to be headed in the same direction or exist in the same story.  In my mind this wouldn't be a difficult thing to do on Arrow because it worked pretty well in the first season but there's no central arc this season on Arrow and maybe this is part of that. 

 

The lack of Thea/Malcolm has been a shock.  I was looking forward to that storyline so much and seeing what Thea wanted to do in her life and having her conflicted about Oliver and then later Malcolm.  When is she going to learn that Oliver is the Arrow?  Is that in the second part of the season?  All of these characters should be working together.  Thea and Laurel used to exist in the same circles in season 1 and they haven't interacted with each other at all, neither have Thea and Felicity.  There's no urgency from anyone to solve Sara's murder, which should have been the big arc of the season for everyone.  It's only mentioned here and there like it's an old cold case.  Having Ray and Oliver interact more in some way would let those stories overlap more than they are on screen.  I can see why The Flash is successful right now.

[Password]

Computers is Felicity's thing. It was probably something she wrote so, sure.

Yeah I was super wrong about how they would handle Ray. I thought he'd have more to do with Oliver than Felicity, but for now just the opposite has happened. I guess 3B will have more interaction because Ray is turning into robo-billionaire and he'll be in the foundry.

Thea and Merlyn have disappointed me. After the season 2 finale I was most looking forward to her storyline. But nope, nothing yet. Bored to tears. What a shame.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Limbo

[Velocity23]

Its looking good for the first part of the crossover ratingwise:

 

On The CW, freshman hit “The Flash” built by 15 percent week-to-week with a 3.0/ 5 in the overnights at 8 p.m. Comparably, that was 76 percent above year-ago occupant “The Originals” (1.7/ 3 on 12/03/13). And it led into a 1.7/ 2 (#5) for “Supernatural” at 9 p.m., which increased by 13 percent from both last week and the year-ago telecast. If it is financially feasible, “Supernatural” could very well be back for an 11th season in 2015-16.

Flash got a 3.0 in HH rating for its second episode which meant: 1.7 in the A18-49 demo and 4.24 mil viewers

[KirkB]

Also..I don't know if I'm a fan of all of Star Labs' upgrades coming from Felicity. Come on now..none of team Flash are capable of adding that?

 

Probably not to the same degree as Felicity. Caitlin and Cisco might be good with science and tech, but Felicity is explicitly a hacker and programmer. Even if they could do the stuff she does I doubt they could do it as fast.

 

Overall, I loved this episode. I liked seeing the Arrow team having fun again, even if Oliver had to be dragged into it kicking and screaming. But as for Oliver's talk with Barry, I don't think a guy who can't get his own damn life in order and is hellbent on being miserable is any position to be giving someone else relationship advice.

Edited December 3, 2014 by KirkB

[Ceylon5]

Similarly it always confuses me when fangirls get accused of living vicariously through Felicity. Like...yeah, a petite 23-yo blonde woman who is the embodiment of the intersection of about a half dozen het male fantasies proving once and for all that women of that description can attract shockingly hot men is really helping me come to terms with my body. Now I have hope!

 

It's interesting that you see it this way.  My take is that all stories in all mediums, if sufficiently well told, suck the reader/viewer/listener into the story so effectively that they're able to 'live vicariously' through all the characters to one degree or another.  That's why people get so annoyed when they're "taken out of the story" by bad acting or writing or editing, because they're jolted out of the world of the characters and rudely reminded that they're just looking in from the outside, instead of being so immersed in the story that they're feeling and experiencing things right alongside and through the characters.  The joy of a story is that you can cease to be you for a while, and enter into someone else's world, someone else's life.  It's not about making you come to terms with yourself; it's about escaping the confines of your world and yourself entirely and seeing things through someone else's eyes.

 

Some characters are particularly easy to identify with (like Felicity) - and it's not gender specific - because they say things that the audience is thinking (like "Why does every secret formula have to be a colour - what happened to good old-fashioned clear?") and respond to events in ways to which the audience can readily relate.  Especially in a created world where a lot of suspense of disbelief is required, characters that react the way the viewers are reacting can really help anchor the story and give the viewers a point of reference.  If a story is overly dependent on one character for this, though, it can create backlash when that character begins to evolve and become less of a touchstone for the audience.

 

There is, I think, a subtle line that can be crossed, when instead of living vicariously through a character and experiencing their world through their unique eyes, a viewer starts super-imposing themselves over a character as a sort of wish fulfilment.  That ceases to be about the character or the story, and becomes instead about the viewer.  I can't imagine that would be a very enjoyable way to watch TV, though, and I shouldn't think many people do this.

[Chaser]

I liked that Felicity helped out with the computers and at the end of the episode she asked for Caitlyn's help with the DNA. And Cisco helped with the engineering on the boomerang. I thought it was a really nice "we are all geniuses, but our specialities lay in different areas so let's help each other out."

[wingster55]

Probably not to the same degree as Felicity. Caitlin and Cisco might be good with science and tech, but Felicity is explicitly a hacker and programmer. Even if they could do the stuff she does I doubt they could do it as fast.

 

I guess..it's worse when they said something similar in a previous ep..like they wouldn't be as effective without Felicity. 

I don't need to hear that on Flash as well. 

[tv echo]

I really enjoyed the Flash-Arrow crossover for a lot of the reasons that have been mentioned by others above.  The original Team Arrow being back in action and working with Team Flash was great.  Oliver was likeable again as the 'elder statesman' superhero.  His scenes and fights with Barry were both believable and enjoyable.  His 'coffee dates' with Felicity were heartwarming.  The Wells-Felicity scene was interestingly ambiguous.  Etc. 

 

A few nitpicks.  All the love triangle scenes involving Barry, Iris and Eddie just felt so deja vu... so, boring.  We didn't get to see Arrow and Flash actually capture the Rainbow Raider. 

 

Anyone else think the EPs are going to do more retconning and make it so pre-island Oliver had actual feelings for his baby mama, which is why he cheated on Laurel with her? 

 

Nice review of "Flash v. Arrow"...
‘The Flash’ Recap: ‘Flash vs. Arrow’
Wednesday, December 3rd, 2014 at 3:51am PST - by Marc Buxton
http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/2014/12/03/the-flash-recap-flash-vs-arrow

 

P.S.  I'm 'meh' on that Suicide Squad movie casting.  Nobody on that cast inspires me to see that movie.

Edited December 3, 2014 by tv echo

[Chaser]

I thought it was odd that the Flash crew mentioned Felicity twice outside of crossovers (Caitlyn's "Do I sound like Felicity?" and Cisco with the computer upgrades). I figure that they just wanted to remind the audience that doesn't watch Arrow about the special guest star because they will be seeing her again. 

[KirkB]

I guess..it's worse when they said something similar in a previous ep..like they wouldn't be as effective without Felicity.

I don't need to hear that on Flash as well.

 

To be fair though, Barry and his team are surviving just fine without Felicity. Her help has just upgraded their systems. Without Felicity in Starling, however, Oliver, Roy and Dig when generally have no idea where to go or what to do. She monitors police bands, does GPS searches, they would not really be able to track (or even find in the first place) targets on surveillance cameras. For that matter, even if one of them knew how to do it they would have to stay behind in the lair, leaving the team one man down in the field. I'm not sure Team Arrow could really function without her,

Edited December 3, 2014 by KirkB

[Guest]

Well, that was fun and SO needed. Just serves to remind me how depressing and grim Arrow is right now. This episode was like a breath of fresh air and very fluid. Not clunky like Arrow has been this season.

 

Diggle's reaction to Barry was fun but not as great as I was expecting. Another reminder not to listen to anything the EP's say because they overhype everything. 

 

I agree with others here - I would have liked more Diggle but I'm guessing (hoping) that he plays a more dominant role in the Arrow episode so I can deal.

 

Barry's grin when he sees Oliver was delightful. He has such a man crush and I love it. Also SA and GG have a great chemistry in their scenes together. Enjoyed the banter. And I was totally on Oliver's side. Barry has a lot to learn and he can't just rely on his super speed to get the job done. There are always other things to think about.

 

Question: when did Felicity and Oliver get married? Did they stop at a chapel on the way to CC because damn. So married. I loved it. Again, such a stark contrast to how they are over at Arrow right now. Love the flirting and gazing and just general couple-y behavior and showed how great they'd be together. This is what I want. It doesn't interfere with the episode, there's no drama. It's just them and how great they are. It fits.

 

Yawn. Baby Mama drama is so boring and predictable. Is this the scene that SA wanted? I remember him saying he suggested this big scene to the EP's a while ago and I can't fathom why he would want such soap-y drama to happen. I'd be fine with it being just a reminder of him having a kid but it just feels like a giant anvil lying in wait for the right moment - probably when Oliver and Felicity are finally happy together. Ugh. Kids ruin everything. 

 

Caitlin running away from that boomerang was the funniest part of the episode. I'm still laughing.

 

Iris's 'crush' on the Flash is kinda weird and makes me feel sorry for Eddie. And Barry seeing Iris when he's dressed as the Flash makes me uncomfortable. Maybe it's because I don't ship anyone on The Flash yet. That might change once Iris knows his secret but right now I got nothing.

 

I would have liked to see Barry and Oliver taking down the bad guy but we totally skipped that part. I know the whole point of the episode was Flash vs Arrow but it would have been nice to see them working together. Maybe next time?

[dtissagirl]

Overall, I loved this episode. I liked seeing the Arrow team having fun again, even if Oliver had to be dragged into it kicking and screaming. But as for Oliver's talk with Barry, I don't think a guy who can't get his own damn life in order and is hellbent on being miserable is any position to be giving someone else relationship advice.

 

I'm seeing it [fanwanking it?] as a consistent character trait: Oliver Queen is the very WORST relationship advice giver in the entire known universe.

[KirkB]

Oh, it's very consistent. Still makes me want to slap Oliver. Honestly, anyone he gives advice to should listen, nod politely, and when it's over do the exact opposite of whatever he said.