Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[JJ928]

So this interview mentions a Legends team member leaving, and while I expected it, I'm kinda bummed. I know it's not gonna be someone I'd be happy to lose like Rory or Nate, it'll probably be Amaya and I really don't want her to go. 

http://tvline.com/2018/04/07/legends-of-tomorrow-season-3-finale-preview-mallus-showdown-team-exit/

[Mary0360]

8 hours ago, lemotomato said:

I don’t know why she can’t just praise her character without putting down others. Who gets to decide which other female characters are “great” and “strong”? 

I really hope she didn't intend to sound smug or arrogant, because she sounds smug and arrogant. 

 

Im hoping she was trying to get across is there aren't a lot of roles for strong female characters and she's fortunate to have one but she said it in a crappy way. 

 

The next question I have is- what does she define as a "strong female character"? 

Yes Sara kicks ass and beats up bad guys but- Is Sara a three dimensional character? Is she complex? Is she allowed to experience a gammit of different emotions in a way that isn't treated as less then? Is she allowed to be vulnerable as well as having inner strength and determination? That to me is the definition of a strong female character, not just a kick ass one.

 

I sense Caity only defines her character by how bad ass she is in fight scenes. 

[tv echo]

Video clip from LoT panel (Dominic Purcell is funny in real life as well)...

C2E2 Legends of Tomorrow Panel
Published on Apr 7, 2018, by Pearson Mui

 

You can watch more of the LoT panel starting at the 1:17:00 mark of this Syfy Wire video...

Khary Payton, Legends of Tomorrow, Bendis & Millar | C2E2 Panel Rm 1 (Day 2) | SYFY WIRE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrF5ZGGAWlY&list=PL_qkOkS7qYmtdpWaVrxbpqED5wj3_gYuY&index=1

Fun Facts: 
-- CL, BR and DP are the only original cast members remaining from S1 of LoT.
-- Ever since she was on Arrow, CL thought that Sara should be the boss.
-- BR said that his wife, Courtney Ford, "originally screen-tested for the part of Laurel Lance" on Arrow.

Edited April 8, 2018 by tv echo

[Mellowyellow]

6 minutes ago, tv echo said:

BR said that his wife, Courtney Ford, "originally screen-tested for the part of Laurel Lance" on Arrow.

Wow! That's fascinating! I like her as Nora. I wonder if she would have escaped the sour smug face LL constantly had. She's neither sour nor smug as Nora and was batsh@t crazy on Dexter. But not sour or smug iirc! 

[wingster55]

16 hours ago, lemotomato said:

I don’t know why she can’t just praise her character without putting down others. Who gets to decide which other female characters are “great” and “strong”? 

Is it other characters or is she calling out Hollywood. The latter I think. 

17 hours ago, tv echo said:

Also this weekend..

ClexaCon Las Vegas, April 5-9, 2018 (NV)
Caity Lotz (Sunday only), Maisie Richardson-Sellers and Chyler Leigh
http://clexa-con.com/programming/2018-featured-guests/

Nafessa Williams too. http://clexa-con.com/guests/nafessa-williams/ Who apparently had very little people at her table (and maybe panel too)

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, Mary0360 said:

I really hope she didn't intend to sound smug or arrogant, because she sounds smug and arrogant. 

 

Im hoping she was trying to get across is there aren't a lot of roles for strong female characters and she's fortunate to have one but she said it in a crappy way. 

 

The next question I have is- what does she define as a "strong female character"? 

Yes Sara kicks ass and beats up bad guys but- Is Sara a three dimensional character? Is she complex? Is she allowed to experience a gammit of different emotions in a way that isn't treated as less then? Is she allowed to be vulnerable as well as having inner strength and determination? That to me is the definition of a strong female character, not just a kick ass one.

 

I sense Caity only defines her character by how bad ass she is in fight scenes. 

 I don’t think it’s such a terrible quote.  There’s no reason to think she was defining Sara as strong solely by her ability to kick ass.  Sara does get to be complex.  We’ve seen from day one that she’s vulnerable AND kickass.  And Sara’s character has grown to display her determination, relying on her inner strength and the strength of of her crew, following and breaking the rules equally because she’s not just one thing.   

Theres no reason to think the female characters CL was referring to as not so great were being dismissed because they don’t fight.  There are still a lot of female roles that are written really poorly or just to push other characters.  I’m sure CL does like that Sara is a great fighter but Sara spends more time not fighting and I’d say that’s what I really judge as to if Sara is a strong character.   E1 Laurel fought and eventually was considered competent but I’d never consider hers a strong character.   

If CL was just saying Sara was strong cause she can kick ass it’s a bad quote but I wouldn’t assume that context automatically.

[Chaser]

Didn’t CL say she thought Sara had gone soft and missed when she was killing people?

[apinknightmare]

12 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

There are still a lot of female roles that are written really poorly or just to push other characters.

There are a lot of male characters who are written poorly as well, but no one's out there talking about "strong male characters." The characteristics that make a strong character are the same for a man and a woman - and saying that Sara is a strong character leaves people to guess which characteristics she's referring to that make Sara "strong," and also insinuates that other characters who don't share those are "weak." That's why the use of "strong female character" in general is bad, and why I think this is a bad quote regardless of how she intended it. She could've listed a few things she admired about Sara so we'd know what she thinks is "strong" and admirable instead of having to guess. 

[BkWurm1]

It’s a talking point that was pretty common among actresses for decades without it being specifically about fighting but also at times has been the lingo when there have been female roles that involve fighting even when there is nothing else interesting about the character or used by some to imply there is only one kind of strength, so I do understand that it sometimes is an eyerolling cliche for someone to say about their character, but I guess I feel we know enough about Sara to know her fighting skills are only a small part of what makes her a strong character so I can’t leap to hearing it in a negative way when CL used it.   

I’d love if roles between men and women had equalized in movies and TV to the point where there was no need to destinquish between strongly written female and male roles but still more often than not male roles get written with far more complexity just by default whereas while there’s a marked improvement lately with a lot of women fighting for better roles to be created, I still see it as lopsided and so that it makes sense for CL to still focus on how lucky she feels in her role as compared to many others   

I agree CL could have said more to expand on that, but just from that quote I don’t know that she didn’t go on to talk about specific strengths that weren’t limited to hand to hand fighting techniques and she has in the past talked about other characteristics so while maybe there wasn’t really anything particularly insightful or new in what she said, I don’t see it as bad.  Boring maybe, but not negative.   Obviously that’s not how everyone viewed it but I wouldn’t have blinked twice at it If it hadn’t been brought up here.   

30 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

There are a lot of male characters who are written poorly as well, but no one's out there talking about "strong male characters." The characteristics that make a strong character are the same for a man and a woman - and saying that Sara is a strong character leaves people to guess which characteristics she's referring to that make Sara "strong," and also insinuates that other characters who don't share those are "weak." That's why the use of "strong female character" in general is bad, and why I think this is a bad quote regardless of how she intended it. She could've listed a few things she admired about Sara so we'd know what she thinks is "strong" and admirable instead of having to guess. 

Edited April 8, 2018 by BkWurm1

[Velocity23]

its not the first time when caity lotz equals a strong female character with knowing how to fight. 

[apinknightmare]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I’d love if roles between men and women had equalized in movies and TV to the point where there was no need to destinquish between strongly written female and male roles but still more often than not male roles get written with far more complexity just by default whereas while there’s a marked improvement lately with a lot of women fighting for better roles to be created, I still see it as lopsided and so that it makes sense for CL to still focus on how lucky she feels in her role as compared to many others   

That's fine, but like I wrote above, if she's going to be the mouthpiece for something like Shethority, she in particular needs to be a little more careful about how she frames the conversation. Regardless of what the rest of the answer contained, or what she meant by it, "I'm really lucky to play a strong female character, there are a lot of female characters who aren't so great" is not the best soundbite. 

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

There are still a lot of female roles that are written really poorly or just to push other characters.

Considering how often I've heard this charge get leveled at Felicity by people who just plain hate her, I think this is a can of worms CL shouldn't have opened. It's really subjective and for her to bring it up in a situation when she couldn't elaborate or clarify was unwise.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

It’s a talking point that was pretty common among actresses for decades without it being specifically about fighting but also at times has been the lingo when there have been female roles that involve fighting even when there is nothing else interesting about the character or used by some to imply there is only one kind of strength, so I do understand that it sometimes is an eyerolling cliche for someone to say about their character, but I guess I feel we know enough about Sara to know her fighting skills are only a small part of what makes her a strong character so I can’t leap to hearing it in a negative way when CL used it.   

I’d love if roles between men and women had equalized in movies and TV to the point where there was no need to destinquish between strongly written female and male roles but still more often than not male roles get written with far more complexity just by default whereas while there’s a marked improvement lately with a lot of women fighting for better roles to be created, I still see it as lopsided and so that it makes sense for CL to still focus on how lucky she feels in her role as compared to many others   

I agree CL could have said more to expand on that, but just from that quote I don’t know that she didn’t go on to talk about specific strengths that weren’t limited to hand to hand fighting techniques and she has in the past talked about other characteristics so while maybe there wasn’t really anything particularly insightful or new in what she said, I don’t see it as bad.  Boring maybe, but not negative.   Obviously that’s not how everyone viewed it but I wouldn’t have blinked twice at it If it hadn’t been brought up here.   

I think that there IS a double standard when talking about strong female characters vs actors talking about strong male characters. As it is, we've grown up in a society where, in the media, males are automatically considered strong (unless they're "nerd" characters, so to speak) so there never needs to be a mention. But female characters have been portrayed less than that until recently. So for Caity to mention strong female characters, I think she's talking in a broader sense. I cannot count how many times I've seen female characters treated horribly, where they're only doing things for someone else (typically, a man), who aren't physically strong, who don't get to be smart, etc. 

I personally see nothing wrong with what Caity said, though I guess I can see how others might. It's really not a bad statement at all because I do find it true (although it also depends on your personal definition of "strong"). Sara Lance is a strong female character, just like I've seen Emily mention how Felicity is a strong female character, or someone like Gal Gadot talking about how Wonder Woman is a strong female character. For me, I see that more in the sense that they may not just be badass physically, but mentally as well. Just to point out, I don't know if she said anything else before or after that particular quote, so this is just my opinion based off of that one quote. So feel free to correct me if there's more to it. 

It would be nice if we were at the point where we didn't have to just define women as strong female characters, but we aren't quite there yet. Women in the media are still fighting to be equalized with men. I still see the majority of shows have a male leading some sort of team or getting to save the day. I interpreted that quote as Caity pointing out how far we still have to go in order to have female characters on the same level as male characters. 

As for her character, I do consider Sara one of the stronger female characters I've seen. She not only gets to kick ass, but she's a leader of a large team. Most female characters (of course not all, as there are exceptions) don't get to lead a team while being badass and not being called a hardass, a bitch, etc. I love that Sara has been considered a popular character because of what she does, not in spite of what she does. 

I guess I find Caity saying that her character is strong just fine, because I find it true. I'm watching Legends because of her, after all. 

I do want to ask if there was more to this quote that directly confirms that Caity is solely talking about Sara being strong because of her fighting skills and nothing else, because I'm genuinely just taking her strong comment as an overall strength, rather than just physical strength. 

[tv echo]

From March 24th LoT panel, with BR and CF, at Collective Con (in Jacksonville, FL)...

(From first video)
-- BR: "They presented a character to me that was supposed to be comedic and bring some levity to Season 3 of Arrow... Going into the meeting, I didn't know it was going to be the Atom. They might've said he was a tech genius character... and they needed him to do comedy stuff and be funny."

-- CF: "I came into the CW family by working on Supernatural, which shoots right next door to Legends. Right next door... As far as the Arrowverse, I - (Gasps) - I auditioned for Laurel back in the day! - (Audience reaction) - I did. And then when Legends came, I auditioned for Vandal Savage - to be Vandal Savage's daughter... David Rapaport casts Arrow and Flash and Legends and Supergirl - everything. So once you get into the family, they don't say, 'we hate you, leave!' If they like you, um, they just kinda keep you in mind for something. And so when the role of Damian Darhk's daughter came, they said, 'hey, we already saw your audition for one bad guy's daughter, come and do this other bad guy's daughter.' And it worked and I think it's working. And I like it."

Collective Con dc legends of tomorrow panel
Published on Apr 4, 2018, by Stormie Roman

Brandon J Routh, Courtney Ford, and Patty Hawkins q and a panel
Published on Apr 5, 2018, by Stormie Roman

Courtney Ford, Brandon J Routh and Patty Hawkins q and a panel
Published on Apr 5, 2018, by Stormie Roman

Courtney Ford, Brandon J Routh and Patty Hawkins
Published on Apr 6, 2018, by Stormie Roman

Courtney Ford, Brandon J Routh and Patty Hawkins q and a panel
Published on Apr 6, 2018, by Stormie Roman

Edited April 8, 2018 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

20 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

It's really not a bad statement at all because I do find it true (although it also depends on your personal definition of "strong").

That's my issue with it. It's such a useless statement, because it's all up to the reader/listener's interpretation and it narrows the options for a whole wide range of personality types and strengths/weaknesses to be divided into two categories: "strong" or "weak." Summarizing a woman into something to be admired or something to be looked down on. 

28 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I cannot count how many times I've seen female characters treated horribly, where they're only doing things for someone else (typically, a man), who aren't physically strong, who don't get to be smart, etc.

But doing things for other people, not being physically strong, or not having a high IQ doesn't make a person weak. If this is all that's shown of a character, that makes them one-dimensional and not fully realized or well-written, which is - IMO - the better way to phrase it if you're going to actually change the conversation regarding writing for and perception of men vs. women in the media. The complexity of roles written for women are never going to improve to that of those written for men if the people who have the audience to elevate the conversation keep using phrasing like Caity did. 

[tv echo]

Another one...

Edited April 8, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Make it so...

Edited April 8, 2018 by tv echo

[Trini]

DC’s Best Of The Week | Week 18

 

Is anyone watching Constantine on CW Seed?

[statsgirl]

19 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Can the whole "strong female character" conversation die? No one's ever talking about "strong male characters." Someone being a sucky person doesn't have anything to do with "strength" - no matter how she's measuring it, being physical and/or mental.

I think no one talks about "strong male characters" because in our world, that's the default.

Coincidentally, I was listening this morning to a clip from a speech by Joanne Lipman, former Editor in Chief of USA Today, the first woman to hold the post of Deputy Managing Editor at the Wall Street Journal and author of What She Said.  She was talking about unconscious biases about girls and boys which get strengthened into biases about men and woman.  Twice as many parents of boys go to a website answering if your child is a genius than parents of girls, boys are thought to be faster and more physically able even when they're not, and while equal numbers of men and women graduated from college 30 years ago (now it more women than men) only 5.2% of CEOs of major American firms are women.  Women have to be 60 - 80 % of a meeting before it's thought that they are there in equal numbers.*

So I agree that we have to talk about "strong female characters" because people's unconscious bias is that male characters are strong while female ones aren't.

Just look at all the complaints about Oliver's abusive relationship with Felicity because she stands up for herself.

10 hours ago, Mary0360 said:

The next question I have is- what does she define as a "strong female character"? 

Yes Sara kicks ass and beats up bad guys but- Is Sara a three dimensional character? Is she complex? Is she allowed to experience a gammit of different emotions in a way that isn't treated as less then? Is she allowed to be vulnerable as well as having inner strength and determination? That to me is the definition of a strong female character, not just a kick ass one.

If you'd said that about Laurel or Dinah, I can see the point. But I agree with @Lady Calypso.  Sara is one of the most three dimensional characters across the Arrowverse.  She came on not just fighting to make sure women would not be hurt by men, but she also came on broken and vulnerable. (I really think that's why Sara worked, because CL showed a vulnerability that KC never did.) Even now, when she's earned being the captain not just by her fighting skills but also by her wisdom (deciding not to change time to save Laurel) and her leadership, she's still insecure about being worthy of being loved because of her actions.

You know which show has terrible writing for female characters?  The Flash. I've ragged on enough about Iris (although her subservience to Barry and Joe drives me crazy every time I watch) but let's look at Caitlin. In spite of having an MD and a PhD (or is it MSc?), her first three seasons were about her importance in helping Barry and her love life with a different man each season.  Why isn't she equal to Cisco?  She's got as good as or more useful skills than he does.  She got meta powers but unlike all the men, she can't control them (weak like a woman) and she has to be tricked or goaded into Killer Frost coming out. And even then, it feels like Caitlin is ashamed of her alter ego instead of seeing it as a strength like Slade sees his.

I think we're going to have to keep saying "strong females" until it because encoded in our automatic thinking the way it is about men.

*Speaking of strong women in real life, I just listened to a conversation with Isabel Bayrakdarian, who was the youth cycling champion in her native Lebanon, won a scholarship to the University of Toronto and earned an MSc in biomedical engineering and then became an opera singer. It was her voice singing in Elvish in The Two Towers. (Why I love CBC radio.)

[tv echo]

[apinknightmare]

14 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I think no one talks about "strong male characters" because in our world, that's the default.

Yes, I know. Male characters - even those whose characteristics and writing were they a female would get them labeled "weak" - are usually judged by the content of their characters and how they're written - not generalized or categorized as a group like women are. 

Quote

I think we're going to have to keep saying "strong females" until it because encoded in our automatic thinking the way it is about men.

But how do we ever get to the point of classifying all women as "strong" if we keep calling out certain characteristics in a general way as representing someone who's "strong" and others as belonging to someone who is "weak"? You're still referring to a subset of the population as "weak" or - like Caity did - "not that great." 

[tv echo]

Edited April 8, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Edited April 8, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

[Lady Calypso]

50 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

But how do we ever get to the point of classifying all women as "strong" if we keep calling out certain characteristics in a general way as representing someone who's "strong" and others as belonging to someone who is "weak"? You're still referring to a subset of the population as "weak" or - like Caity did - "not that great." 

Unfortunately, as much as I wish it was immediate, we can't go from what we were, with women not getting to take leadership roles or being able to be independent women or have such qualities like men do, right to calling female characters just female characters. We're in a state of transition, where we unfortunately need to differentiate between what women used to be like to what women will be like. It's why words like "strong" or "role model" need to be used. Is it fair? No, absolutely not. But Caity is fighting for all sorts of representation for women through Shethority, just like all the other Arrowverse actresses (and even the actors who are allies) are doing. For me, using the word "strong" isn't shade (or, at least isn't intentional shade). Using the word strong is to showcase how much further we still need to go as a society to get female characters to an equal level as the male characters. Yeah, there were weak female characters in the past. I think that's where the comparisons are being drawn. Roles for women are getting better, though, which is a good thing. Plus, I've seen Shethority use the word "strong" to describe women in a lot of their posts. It's because women weren't considered strong for so long. 

And I think that's why Caity uses the word "lucky" to describe her role as Sara. She could have it much worse. She could be written as badly as Iris has been for four seasons. She could be just a team member in the background, instead of a leader. She could lose almost every fight she's in. Why? Because it's happened before on TV. There is still that history where we have had so many different women who are classified as weak. It's actually unfair that Caity feels like she has to use the word "lucky", but she really does. I look at Candice Patton and I feel so bad for her because she is playing a character who hasn't had much to do and hasn't lived up to the potential that she has. It's still unfair. 

I mean, look how hard it is to get a female superhero on the big screen. And female superheroes in the Arrowverse are too few as well (in comparison to how many male superheroes we have, even in guest stars). 

On another note, I just saw a tweet about Caity's panel today with Maisie where she almost wasn't cast because they didn't see her as "CW enough". AKA, she was initially pushed aside by the network because she didn't fit these standards that this particular network had. Which sucks because she wasn't almost dismissed due to talent, but based off of her look or some already pre-determined standards that actresses had to meet. 

[apinknightmare]

10 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

We're in a state of transition, where we unfortunately need to differentiate between what women used to be like to what women will be like. It's why words like "strong" or "role model" need to be used. Is it fair? No, absolutely not.

I would totally agree with you if anyone had any idea what "strong" means. Even people here who are familiar with Caity are only guessing about her intent here. There can't be any meaningful advancement between how women used to be referred to and portrayed and how they should be referred to and portrayed when "strong" is the most common term used to describe the ideal.

Quote

Plus, I've seen Shethority use the word "strong" to describe women in a lot of their posts. It's because women weren't considered strong for so long. 

That's great, but what does it even mean? Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, places where they excel and ones where they don't - that all combines to make a complex person, which is how men are generally portrayed. With women, the "strong" ones are actually generally complex and well-rounded characters regardless of their actual strengths and weaknesses, which is why I think the wording and the approach to the conversation should change. That's what I think people should be asking for and aiming to see - and as people who are pushing something like Shethority, I'd like to see Caity and Co. do that. 

[Lady Calypso]

17 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

That's great, but what does it even mean? Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, places where they excel and ones where they don't - that all combines to make a complex person, which is how men are generally portrayed. With women, the "strong" ones are actually generally complex and well-rounded characters regardless of their actual strengths and weaknesses, which is why I think the wording and the approach to the conversation should change. That's what I think people should be asking for and aiming to see - and as people who are pushing something like Shethority, I'd like to see Caity and Co. do that. 

This is something I do agree with, wholeheartedly. Now, the discussion is going to have to change to determine what "strong" is for women on TV and in movies. Shethority still has a ways to go to really establish themselves in what their message is and what they're trying to accomplish. 

Either way, I never actually questioned Caity's intent in that quote when I first read it. It does fascinate me to hear what other people might have taken her quote as in another context. I do find the word "strong" used a lot when describing women in media; for example, the tweet that @tv echo shared about Elodie/Elektra from Daredevil right after your post where she's talking about wanting more strong female characters in Marvel shows. 

On another note, I read some tweets about Black Lightning's Nafessa Williams having a panel at Clexacon, where Caity, Maisie, and Chyler Leigh are, but hardly anyone showing up. 

[apinknightmare]

16 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Either way, I never actually questioned Caity's intent in that quote when I first read it. It does fascinate me to hear what other people might have taken her quote as in another context. I do find the word "strong" used a lot when describing women in media; for example, the tweet that @tv echo shared about Elodie/Elektra from Daredevil right after your post where she's talking about wanting more strong female characters in Marvel shows. 

Oh, I wasn't trying to question her intent - I don't think she meant any harm. I just hate the "strong woman" stuff (obviously, LOL) because I don't think it's at all helpful in terms of anyone advocating for more "strong women" getting what they're actually asking for. It's like wanting a banana split with chocolate ice cream, hot sauce, nuts and three cherries on top and asking for a "sundae." 

[Primal Slayer]

It's interesting that they'd give Nafessa her own panel, she is still REALLY new to a lot of people and doesn't have a ship that has skyrocketed her to bigger popularity. 

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

I would totally agree with you if anyone had any idea what "strong" means. Even people here who are familiar with Caity are only guessing about her intent here. There can't be any meaningful advancement between how women used to be referred to and portrayed and how they should be referred to and portrayed when "strong" is the most common term used to describe the ideal.

 

 

I do like that we have that tweet from her panel with Maise where CL says's Sara's superpower is helping people and all the people she affects. It gives me a good feeling about CL's intent when she speaks about her character. 

 I think you are right that people need to stop generalizing and start playing up what Strong Women means specifically to their character but at the same time, it's also a shorthand for the complexity most of us hope to see in female characters even if it is generalized.  I'd like to have it become more of the norm to spell out those great qualities but I'm glad actresses are still speaking up about being proud when their characters are well written since it's really hard for the ones that have weakly written characters to complain while on the job.     

Edited April 8, 2018 by BkWurm1

[calliope1975]

4 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

But doing things for other people, not being physically strong, or not having a high IQ doesn't make a person weak. If this is all that's shown of a character, that makes them one-dimensional and not fully realized or well-written, which is - IMO - the better way to phrase it if you're going to actually change the conversation regarding writing for and perception of men vs. women in the media. The complexity of roles written for women are never going to improve to that of those written for men if the people who have the audience to elevate the conversation keep using phrasing like Caity did. 

This has always been my problem with the phrase "strong female character." Women are multitudes. Vast and complex. I'd rather something like well-rounded character or the like. Is the character 3-dimensional? I don't care is she never throws a punch, sits in a room and cries all day. A 3-dimensional character is what I want to see, and I think the word "strong" which traditionally has been used for the "kick-ass" lady is why these conversations continue to occur. 

Edited April 8, 2018 by calliope1975

[BkWurm1]

It's probably all about nuance.  You say "strong character" and some immediately think it's about kicking ass while "strong characterization," says what I really think is meant.  Both should mean the same thing or at least could mean the same thing.

[Sakura12]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

On another note, I read some tweets about Black Lightning's Nafessa Williams having a panel at Clexacon, where Caity, Maisie, and Chyler Leigh are, but hardly anyone showing up. 

I don't know who else they could've put her with since as of now BL is not part of the other shows so she couldn't be with Chyler at the Supergirl panel or with Caity and Maise at the LoT pannel. I also think Nafessa was a later add on as well. I guess the could've had a LGBTQ representation in the Arrowverse with Chyler, Caity and Nafessa (and Masie since she is gay).

I don't always think strong is meant to mean physically. I think strong can mean everything about the woman. You can be mentally, physically, intellectually and emotionally strong. We just tend to think that strong means physical. 

[Velocity23]

Well CL just stepped into a bigger mess today. Its really not a good look for the face of shethority.

[ruby24]

3 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Well CL just stepped into a bigger mess today. Its really not a good look for the face of shethority.

What happened?

[Velocity23]

A dyke joke at a panel. 

[Lady Calypso]

Oh Jesus, Caity. I was JUST defending you as well....damnit. 

[JJ928]

I wasn't bothered by her strong woman comment, because that's like a CW standard talking point by now... But no. That is not cool, joking or not. 

I'm sad Nafessa didn't have a good turn out. I hope she gets invited to HVFF, I think she'll have a better turn out there, since DCTV is the draw.

[Mary0360]

I think that puts to rest what Caity's intentions were.  And that is the most basic arrogant and self involved intentions. 

[Lady Calypso]

14 minutes ago, JJ928 said:

I wasn't bothered by her strong woman comment, because that's like a CW standard talking point by now... But no. That is not cool, joking or not. 

Very true. I don't hate CL, but I am disappointed in her very wrong choice of words. I can only hope Maisie, and others, talked to her about it later. She should be educated in the use of the word, and honestly, she should already know how it's a word she shouldn't be using. 

1 minute ago, Mary0360 said:

I think that puts to rest what Caity's intentions were.  And that is the most basic arrogant and self involved intentions. 

I don't see her as arrogant, but maybe more self-absorbed. I don't think Caity said it maliciously, but she should know better and she should already be educated. It's disappointing that she's not. 

[JJ928]

10 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Very true. I don't hate CL, but I am disappointed in her very wrong choice of words. I can only hope Maisie, and others, talked to her about it later. She should be educated in the use of the word, and honestly, she should already know how it's a word she shouldn't be using. 

 I don't hate CL but I'm not a fan either. I'm mostly apathetic, don't follow or check her social/interviews/cons unless it's crossover time. So I'm pretty neutral on her, going by twitter, she said the word multiple times, made a joke about Maisie not being "gay enough", and Chryler participated in this. So both she and Chryler can GTFO imo. I'm not an overly sensitive person, but if what I saw is true, some people are saying the girls were drunk. If slurs slide off the tongue when you let loose, that tells me they're part of your vocabulary.

Edited April 9, 2018 by JJ928

[apinknightmare]

I went investigating to see what happened with the Maisie comment. From what I can gather they were at a Shethority panel, and Maisie was asked what it was like as a lesbian playing a straight character - seems like Caity said then that Maisie was too girlie to play a gay character and that Caity would teach her to be gay enough? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know what Maisie is and isn't okay with or even if she was personally offended - which she may not have been! But yikes, the words she used, the venue she chose to use them in. Awful. 

Edited April 9, 2018 by apinknightmare

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, JJ928 said:

 I don't hate CL but I'm not a fan either. I'm mostly apathetic, don't follow or check her social/interviews/cons unless it's crossover time. So I'm pretty neutral on her, going by twitter, she said the word multiple times, make a joke about Maisie not being "gay enough", and Chryler participated in this. So both she and Chryler can GTFO imo. I'm not an overly sensitive person, but if what I saw is true, some people are saying the girls were drunk. If slurs slide off the tongue when you let loose, that tells me they're part of your vocabulary.

I'm also a bit disappointed in Maisie, as she didn't seem bothered by it, to the point where she's heard Caity say similar things in other instances. 

Just now, apinknightmare said:

I went investigating to see what happened with the Maisie comment. From what I can gather they were at a Shethority panel, and Maisie was asked what it was like as a lesbian playing a straight character - seems like Caity said then that Maisie was too girlie to play a gay character and that Caity would teach her to be gay enough? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know what Maisie is and isn't okay with or even if she was personally offended - which she may not have been! But yikes, that's...a bad look. 

I read some more tweets about it and it SEEMS like they were both bantering off of each other? Still, I want to make it clear that Caity's choice in words is NOT ok, but just from I've read about the situation from several tweets and even tumblr, it seemed like those moments were taken as a friendly moment between the women and Maisie didn't seem bothered by it at all. 

This won't change my opinion of Sara as a character, but it did make CL lose some points in my eyes.

[Velocity23]

Maisie herself is LGBT. Not having the video it seems there was a tiny bit a shade from her though. 

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I read some more tweets about it and it SEEMS like they were both bantering off of each other? Still, I want to make it clear that Caity's choice in words is NOT ok, but just from I've read about the situation from several tweets and even tumblr, it seemed like those moments were taken as a friendly moment between the women and Maisie didn't seem bothered by it at all. 

Yeah, it seems that way. I think that was probably a really bad venue to joke like that though, given other people might not have been as easygoing about the subject as Maisie may be. 

[Mellowyellow]

I was disappointed in her for making the comments about "not so great" female characters in the first place. Why even add that part of the comment in at all? You can be proud of what you're doing or what you have without putting down other people and yes I did interpret that as a put down of other characters. Not a good look.

[JJ928]

5 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I'm also a bit disappointed in Maisie, as she didn't seem bothered by it, to the point where she's heard Caity say similar things in other instances. 

I don't know what Maisie could have done in that setting tbh. Maybe Maisie gives CL a pass to use that word, and that's her choice. Still the fact that it was thrown around at a con by a straight woman, who was egged on by another straight woman, at a con that was developed by LGBTQIA fans is not acceptable. I'm bisexual, but that word is not in my vocabulary, nor do I feel entitled to use it. Either way, I'm in the "disappointed but not surprised" category. 

Edited April 9, 2018 by JJ928

[Sakura12]

Having watched the video while I don't think Caity should've used that word and I hope someone tells her that. The context of their conversation was about stereotypes. Most lesbians on tv are more masculine and Caity was joking about Maisie being too girly for that stereotype and Maisie responded that one day she hopes to be gay enough to play a lesbian character. 

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Having watched the video while I don't think Caity should've used that word and I hope someone tells her that. The context of their conversation was about stereotypes. Most lesbians on tv are more masculine and Caity was joking about Maisie being too girly for that stereotype and Maisie responded that one day she hopes to be gay enough to play a lesbian character. 

Good to know the context - I didn't see any videos when I went looking. 

[TwistedandBored]

Oh, Caity..

I mean know she probably didn't mean any harm by it but most people on social media won't probably look and watch the videos to get context. So, I hope she chooses her words wisely the next time.